posted
Hi all, pls, I need more info about following..I have a boyfriend in Egypt, and we planned to see /again/ this year and to stay at a hotel together. He told me we can make a notary legalized paper to prove we are married, just for hotel purposes, to charge me as an egyptian! Do you think it works? Pls, advise!
Posts: 4 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
ata, what your b/f is referring to is called an orfi marriage. You state "to prove we are married, just for hotel purposes." What you mean is just for sex purposes. I have no idea what you mean by "to charge me as an egyptian." Anyway, yes, it's legal and to "divorce" you he just tears it up the paper. The Orfi marriage was not originally designed for this purpose. Some men use it just so they can have sex and not get hassled (as in your case.) Personally, I wouldn't do it but I guess to each his own... Posts: 895 | From: Atlanta, GA. | Registered: Nov 2004
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Egyptians are charged lower rates than tourists for hotels, plane tickets, and entrance fees into many tourist places, as this is subsidised for them by their government. To be charged Egyptian rates in the hotel you would have to have Egyptian residency, and you could only be get that if you were legally married. For that your “orfi marriage” papers would have to be registered in court to make it a legal civil marriage. This would take time to do and I don’t think it could be done in time to reduce your payments on this trip. However, if you do decide to do this “to get Egyptian rates” (which I don’t think is a good enough reason to get married!) you should realize that you will be legally married to the man and not able to get out of the relationship by tearing the paper up as with an orfi marriage, you would have to go to court to get divorced.
By the way, although the concept of an “orfi” marriage is being totally abused here, it should not be confused with the Shia/Shiite concept of a temporary marriage, which to them is legitimate.
posted
The name orfi MARRIAGE is totally misleading.. the local guys here call it a f***ing paper!!! A lot of hotels won't accept it.... you'll probably be put in separate rooms anyway!! I agree with wiggum and sin-dee.... I wouldn't even go there!!!
Posts: 4238 | From: USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by wiggum: No this so called boyfriend of yours is out to protect himself.
If the authorities know about you two living together as man and wife, the vice police will arrest him (in fact theoretically both of you), they will treat him just like any other prostitute.
So what these gigolos do is abuse the so called Orfi marriage. So that he can defend himself in case he gets caught by claiming that he is married to you.
Once he gets what he can from you, money, meals , accommodation, sex...he will just tear up that bit of paper and leave you with the consequencies:
Doesnt this conflict a little with your post on another thread wiggum? Are you saying that this female is not a victim but is exploiting her boyfriend? Doesnt look that way to me, it sounds like she is the one being exploited.
posted
Wow, u guys make me scared to visit yr country! We just love and want to stay in same room! Soo, if there is some way, pls, tell! And pls, no talks about prostitutes and gigolos! We are high-educated people in love, none of us is poor!!!???
Posts: 4 | Registered: Apr 2005
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if your boyfriend is highly educated as you claim and you are staying in a large city like alex or cairo, then he will know where to go to obtain a flat discreetly so that there's no need for this.
posted
Wiggum, I agree these men can be victims of poverty and for some these "marriages" are a way out of that poverty, I cant blame anyone for wanting to find a way out of that trap. But..... the majority of these women who fall for the scam are not even aware that these scams take place. Dont they all say that their man is different? But even when the men have performed the scam enough times to accumulate a degree of wealth and a lifestyle many would die for, they still continue. At that point they cannot possibly be called victims of poverty.
Posts: 1196 | From: www.spiritofthenile.com | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by ExptinCAI: where in Egypt are you staying?
if your boyfriend is highly educated as you claim and you are staying in a large city like alex or cairo, then he will know where to go to obtain a flat discreetly so that there's no need for this.
ata, this is also true. Cairo is a large city and if you will be staying there and your b/f is educated he will know how to rent a place discreetly as ExptinCAI said. Don't be scared to visit Egypt. The ppl are very friendly. Its just illegal in this Islamic country for a man & women to openly spend the night with one another without being married....
posted
The law about unmarried people staying together - how strict is it? Does it apply to Egyptian nationals only or does everyone get swept up in that law? And how vigorously is it enforced?
I'm curious and ask because I may have been in a situation where I could potentially have fallen afoul of the law. My g/f & I were planning to get married in Egypt but as that wouldn't have happened until later in our trip, then technically we'd be an unmarried couple staying/travelling together. And as such, we were going to get fake wedding rings to wear until that time just to avoid any hassle. Would that have been necessary for us? As it is, we decided to do the formalities before we leave - too much hassle and runnning around in Cairo when we could be doing touristy things - so it won't be an issue. But could it have been?
posted
Sure, staying together in Alex wasn't a problem last year, neighter will be this year. We just wanted to go to Sharm for some days..
Posts: 4 | Registered: Apr 2005
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The orfi paper is a paper that allows you two to date and be together as you would anywhere else in Europe or in many other countries. Just don't expect anything more of it. You can date and go out and live even sleep together with anybody you want in Europe and many other countries without it beeing anybody else's problem than yours but in Egypt it is not possible.So there you have to be married to be able to stay together so the orfi papre is a leagal way to stay together but it is not a validated marriage.
Posts: 523 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Why so many people on this site want to tell others how to live their lives?
Ata you just need to make an ORFI contract with a lawyer then you will be able to rent a flat in Sharm. If you are going direct to Sharm you can see a lawyer there. It is very unlikely you can stay at a hotel with this contract but there are some nice places in Sharm where you can rent a flat with same facilities as hotels.
Your boyfriend will be protected by the contract and it is not a full commitment to marriage..you can tear it up anytime.
posted
Hi all i never heard about this orfi business where did it come from prophet, ulema or what? what doews it let u do and how is it diiferent from marriage and shia muta marriage
posted
Hi ata i just wanna tell u a good idea if u cant stay together in a hotel so just take an apartment together, u can rent one and stay together all the time!
so i rent our apartment in heliopolis just if u will visit cairo and i think its easy to find in sharm apartments too 4 rent.
posted
Wiggum you grossly stereotype everyone and maybe you need to pay attention to details a bit more instead of trying to hammer in the same point regardless of whether or not it fits a particular situation.
This lady has visited Egypt before; she says she knows it's no problem about staying together in a city, it's only the resort areas she's unsure about.
She's not a grandma lookin' out for some resort meat. She's got an egyptian boyfriend who doesn't live in the resort town, but they want to vacation at a resort together.
The answer is simply that (1) hotels require a legitimate marriage certificate if one of the two is an Egyptian nationality. They do not if both are foreigners (but if they're not-western (lebanese/syrian for example) it will vary with hotels sometimes. (2) you can rent a private flat. Unless you're a waiter/shop keeper who also LIVES in the resort town (and the tourist police sees you with a new girlfriend staying in yet another flat every few week on a regular basis) - chances are you can probably rent a private flat in Sharm without any stupid orfi papers. Again, I have to stress if your boyfriend is of a certain class and not local, he's not going to get hassled by the local tourism police the way a local waiter would.
I would suggest if you're coming in summer, rent a place in Agamy and skip all this orfi nonsense. Everyone goes to the North Coast anyway in the summer.
posted
Orfi papers are NOT accepted at most hotels, but landlords will accept them for short term rental purposes.
Orfi costs 200le max. Think of it more as an official engagement, rather than a marriage.
My (now legal) husband and i had this problem in Cairo when we were there to do the Embassy/Misery of Justice marriage and we werent allowed to share a room at the hotel until we had a civil certificate because of police raids. We were informed of this fact whilst the receptionist smoked hashish. ?????
Posts: 29 | From: portsmouth, UK | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ata: a notary legalized paper to prove we are married, just for hotel purposes, to charge me as an egyptian! Do you think it works?
Hi folks, am just back from a month in Sharm on a made-at-lawyer's paper with my poor gigolo low-paid waiter boy-friend, just to remind you. And you know what? It was pure bliss and heaven :DDDD or maybe even better, it felt like something very normal nice that could continue and continue and need not ever end... but OK it should be good and proper to get some distance in between, for comparison purposes and for knowing how "life without him/them (=rest of Egyptians)" feels :D.
I did not even need do ANYTHING for this lawyer's paper which had both our photos and both our signatures but in the end I forgot to have him read to me what it said :)). I just faxed him copy of my passport and posted a photo and he got it all waiting for me when I arrived. We stayed at Delta Sharm, much nicer than photos on website suggest, like hotel, even breakfast included for those who wish, but more privacy and more room. 6 nice pools, several restaurants, supermarkets, home delivery (I am still not accustomed to so I mostly ran to get everything myself, so embarrassing for the dear egyptians :). The rates we got were 200/350 LE per night or alternatively 3000 LE per month. He paid for the first week per day, then it was clear we do OK together so I paid for a month more. Was fair, I think, because both we gave all free money we had, although he gave much more of course, in ratio to income, so very dear of him. And yes, they asked for the lawyer's paper and both our IDs, and it was OK. Delta is also great because so many mixed couples stay there, more or less married, that nobody really cares any more. Many have really established families, staying at Delta with wives and/or children when they come to visit, and in employer's accommodations during rest of time.
No one bothered to ask us anything or for any paper in any other place in or around Sharm during all that time, so I guess time is moving forward just as quickly in Egypt, or at least Sinai, as it does in the rest of world.
Did I say already it felt like heaven? Despite he's onlu had sex twice all his life, all else learned "from TV" so sweet, ah? he must be a genius them, because I think it took me the first 10 years to get anywhere near enjoyment. Also, he is caring, understanding, sympathetic EVEN when I behave bad, because I have seen so many stupid men in life that I am not a particularly patient person any more I am sorry to say (but maybe will become one again, if spend more time with him :). So in many ways he seems much wiser than the wisest men this side of the Mediterranean I've met. The only complaint I have is that he is overly taken with my physical charms and much less with my "inner beauty" but anyway physical charm is a good way of keeping a man interested (right, guys?) while other revelations help keep life interesting for some longer time then maybe :DDDD. Anyway, each time when I closed TV and forced him talk with me, I got all talking that I missed and consequently all feeling that I missed (bec. for me sexuality is somehow a totally brain thing, I may like or not like a person's appearance, but it is minds that drive me crazy) So I am not crazy after him yet, but have good perspectives of becoming, little by little :DDD. At least I hope so, because I really really like him, his way of thinking, what he has been saying about his family etc. And he is christian, meaning he is supposed to marry only once per life, so romantic isn't it? and what a challenge! Feels kind of brave, esp. in today's consumer society, everyone hurrying to replace any model that seems to lack any features of the ideal mate.
So-- you cannot make rules about men in Egypt or even men in Sharm or Hurghada for the others, because we all just get what we've earned. And some of us, magically, sometimes, have earned to be loved and to love back, whatever the rest of circumstances.
Anything else I should add, for the sake of greater triumph??? :P Love!
[This message has been edited by nevermind (edited 11 April 2005).] (I took all Orfis out acc. to dear Wiggie's remark below, so that dear muslim souls here would not feel disturbed or anything by a pagan soul forcing into their realm, all innocently of course but still :)).
[This message has been edited by nevermind (edited 11 April 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by wiggum: That really surprises me. Let me get this right please Your boyfriend is Christian, and you married him orfi ?
My mistake, wiggie :). I thought thi slawyer's paper IS the Orfi, somehow there is a total confusion what the orfi is or what the paper is maybe because purpose is same :))??? So call it what you want or what is more proper, instead & sorry for coming anywhere near the muslim realm!!!
posted
My own second best interpretation (1st being: "This f...g is official and Government protected. /signatures of competent persons/", but there was much more text on paper)
would be something like "This tourist girl here that we have never seen or met in person but still she has kindly sent her data and signed the paper, seems to be of full and sound mind, and still she has agreed to learn to know this poor gigolo Egypt guy more intimately with very serious intentions (or with possible future prospect of marrying him but this one I am not so sure of that they say there), and therefore he is allowed to be found in immediate physical nearness to her and it should not be classified as sexual or other harrassment of a tourist woman by anyone legally entitled to have any interest in this matter."
quote:Originally posted by nevermind: My own second best interpretation (1st being: "This f...g is official and Government protected. /signatures of competent persons/", but there was much more text on paper)
would be something like "This tourist girl here that we have never seen or met in person but still she has kindly sent her data and signed the paper, seems to be of full and sound mind, and still she has agreed to learn to know this poor gigolo Egypt guy more intimately with very serious intentions (or with possible future prospect of marrying him but this one I am not so sure of that they say there), and therefore he is allowed to be found in immediate physical nearness to her and it should not be classified as sexual or other harrassment of a tourist woman by anyone legally entitled to have any interest in this matter."
Uh???
Lol, thats the best translation I have ever read!! Nice one!!
Wiggum, unfortunately things must have changed since you left Egypt, Christians do marry Orfi now, at least they have the same piece of paper that the muslims have, and they may have just as many foreign Orfi wives. They often have an egyptian wife at the same time. Progress or what? And there appear to be different "Orfi" papers, registered at court requiring a court divorce, or not registered at court requiring a rapid sleight of hand to tear the paper up. It all seems to depend on the guy and what he really wants out of the foreigner.
I am approaching 60 , bald , fat, bum is not very firm any more, snore loudly, can hardly manage "it" ,(may be hardly is the wrong choice of word).....any body interested...email me at twilight@oldfolkshome.com
I am approaching 60 , bald , fat, bum is not very firm any more, snore loudly, can hardly manage "it" ,(may be hardly is the wrong choice of word).....any body interested...email me at twilight@oldfolkshome.com
quote:Originally posted by Abuturab: Hi all i never heard about this orfi business where did it come from prophet, ulema or what? what doews it let u do and how is it diiferent from marriage and shia muta marriage
regards
Hi Abuturab!
The name "Orfi" is based on the Arabic word 'urf meaning local custom or practice, and in Islamic law these are allowed as long as they don't clash with any aspect of the Quran, Sunnah, or other agreed sources of Islamic law.
You will have to wait for an Egyptian to tell you its roots here in Egypt, although I understand that there are similar types of arrangments that are equally abused in other places in North Africa too.
The way it is practiced here does not usually conform to the Islamic requirements of an offer and an acceptance between a man and the woman's legal guardian (wali), nor does it always have two eligible witnesses, a delcared dowry (mahr), and it is not always made public. Others have described how it can be used and its legal standing in an Egyptian court is zero and overseas too. Although one woman did say on ES once that an Orfi contract had been used against her as evidence of a bigamy in a divorce case in Europe, and the court wouldn't accept it had no value, as it is written in the form of a contract.
It differs from the Shia temporary marriage (mut'a) in that the length of duration of the contract is not declared at the beginning. Althought there may be other aspects to as I am not so familiar with Shia law.
posted
Wiggum, you dont need me to tell you what Orfi means in modern day tourist Egypt. There doesnt seem to be any religious connotations attached to it, it is simply used as a tool to "marry" western women for whatever needs the egyptian man has, whether that be money, sex or a visa, and it is used equally by muslims and christians to scam women. However lol, I doubt that a christian man with an egyptian wife would use anything other than the non court registered Orfi, anything else would be polygamy and is not allowed, also I believe christians do not believe in divorce, so hey.... a registered Orfi would make life a tad difficult wouldnt it?
And yes, a christian man could marry a muslim wife, unfortunately, the muslim lady couldnt marry him. Poor bugger... he just couldnt win could he?
Oh, and can you give your email again.... I dont go to Hurghada, but I may be interested in your offer..... particularly the "hardly" bit....
posted
deary good morning and good day pls note the followings: at first you must signed this contract through one law office (lawyers) also two witness in order to can obtained your rights if happened any problems wait u e-mail if you need further information and details i am legal accountant in international law firm best wishes mohamed
quote:Originally posted by ata: Hi all, pls, I need more info about following..I have a boyfriend in Egypt, and we planned to see /again/ this year and to stay at a hotel together. He told me we can make a notary legalized paper to prove we are married, just for hotel purposes, to charge me as an egyptian! Do you think it works? Pls, advise!
posted
He-he-he Wiggum :))). Nice thoughts, actually. And my friend said the same--because we discussed the old Egyptian films in TV because I was alsowondering where the women are who looked and dressed and behaved so liberally there, and he said it has been so before indeed, before and after WWII, but that now is a kind of renaissance of strict muslim traditions, and with the way the West has been renouncing these and i would not be surprised either if it is just so. There are always backlashes when you pull something too tight, as the world will try to maintain its inner harmony.
But about men manipulating to get their way... actually it must be all human beings, men or women, ultimately always finding a way to do exactly as they want. Which is why any religious or administrative rules simply make no sense if they try work against human nature.
And if yu have been away from Egypt for so long (I wonder, where?) you should be aware that the rest of the world really does not need government warrants when they simply want be together with someone they like plus have the liberty of deciding in private whether they also want any sex or not. Without official announcement required for it. So this kind of paperwork really is of no interest to "Western women", but only to protect our egyptian male friends from your own government. Still, I am happy they have found a solution like that, relatively simple to all involved. :) Love!
posted
But I think maybe ata was really interested in whether she/they get to pay the reduced fee for Egyptians for the hotel if they've got the paper? Because otherwise for mixed couples, I believe, they'd have to pay tourist fee?
I do not think we paid the "egyptian" price, paper or no paper, but then we did not exactly ask for it either.
posted
Ata, nothing wrong with ORFI marriage if both of you know it is only a way of obeying the law while eating your cake too. Have fun and enjoy the magic of Egypt. I am sure you will be back there again and again. Posts: 2238 | From: Mother Earth | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Hello Ata, Its nice that ure in love,theres nothing more wonderful than this feel,sure! And spending a wonderful time in this lovely country with the man u love is smth amazing indeed! but i was thinking,u are definately not a middle east woman,open minded,feministic,and everything!The things there are so different really,from any other non islamic country! Especially the acceptions man\woman,and the way they look on these relations! I really know how are the things here,and these relations dont take my attention in no way,but being in Egypt,u will really die from shame even if he kiss u infront other people,u just dont have idea how they look at u,hahahahah! So i fu wanna be with ur habiby,really pls dont feel this amazing shame in some hotel,where no doubt,they will watch u both like u make a crime or laugh ironically! It never happened to me,but i was there when this happened to another couple and the girl really felt like......u know...and go out of hotel with tears from how they make her feel!Maybe she was just too sensitive,but being in islamic country u shouls follow their rules and laws,this is the truth! No matter we never make that before we marry with my husband there....i really hated the way they look at us,even when he picked me from the hotel,no matter we only walked out,nothing wrong,and after all they know how to make u feel stupid for nothing! Maybe just ur man is more modern thinking,but he still have to try keep u from all this especially if he think seriously 4 u,not for only fun relation! So,if u both want to share place together,without u make the big step ,dont take risk with hotels and take apartment,i saw that many guys on here advicedu this,and i think they are right! Good luck with this relation,ahd enjoy your time in Egypt! Piece be upon you both! Posts: 1134 | From: NoNe oF uR BuSiNeS | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Hi, Diana_Ivanova! From yr name I see u r from my country! I am from Varna, BG )) Yes, u r sooo right! Last year when I was in Alex I felt like in ZOO!!! Staring is too light word... Pls, give me yr email, or write me to vanyaes@yahoo.com. You are the first one who exactly knows how I feel! Taka se nujdaq ot malko pove4e informaciq. Ot vsi4ko napisano v tozi forum, ve4e neznam kakvo da pravq!
Posts: 4 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
they're all true, ata because it's a big country full of diversity and it's not as black and white as it seems.
Posts: 2182 | Registered: Oct 2002
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if u cant stay together in a hotel so just take an apartment together, u can rent one and stay together all the time!
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