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Originally posted by salama:
Kara Mia has joined us today. She has converted to Islam today.

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Hmmm... what is to be celebrated in that someone has been FORCED, by bureaucratic measures, to convert to a certain set of beliefs, just because she wishes to MARRY A MAN???

I would understand the joy if anyone had accepted a set of beliefs freewillingly (as we do with really worthy, value-adding things).

Karah Mia...Mabrouk and I wish you find peace with whatever you choose. You'r someon who I admire her manners..you know that already. I advised someone here to keep personal stuff away from a forum like this unless they don't mind being bitten by some vampires here

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Originally posted by Mon_Savage:
I like vampires .

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Originally posted by sonomod:
Does your wife's conversion make your life in America less daunting? Does it make America seem less of a scary place?

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Originally posted by Troubles101:

This one recognize herself and she's got strong wings to fly with and reach you in a second once you ask about her

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Originally posted by nevermind:

Hmmm... what is to be celebrated in that someone has been FORCED, by bureaucratic measures, to convert to a certain set of beliefs, just because she wishes to MARRY A MAN???

I would understand the joy if anyone had accepted a set of beliefs freewillingly (as we do with really worthy, value-adding things).

/

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NM....let me tell you something about Karah Mia....
This is one of the most intelligent and free-willed women you can get.... we talked at great length about her conversion to Islam, and I am so happy for her!!
She is not converting to catch a man, she already has a husband she is very happy with... he has forced her into nothing!! !!
Wild horses could not push this lady into anything she didn't want to do...
She embraced Islam with a completely open mind, and open heart!!
When I converted to Islam, there was no man holding a knife to my throat.... Would you believe many of us actually do something of our own free will??? We are intelligent human beings who have looked at the facts and made informed choices!! or.. is this impossible for you to concieve???
GET OVER IT!!!!!

Mon savage.... you have a truly exceptional wife there... treasure her... and I hope you always make her as happy as she is now!!

Mabrouk, Karah, my sister in Islam, and I am looking forward to December so much!!!
Allahu Akbar!!!

No, the thought of believing in a superpower, and, the more so, of minioning one with aim of receiving a hefty premie when time comes, is indeed totally inconceivable to me, and it is so cheap, too, selling your soul for some questionable future material convenicnce! Because a human is a most wonderful being full of most wondrous skills and characters. He should not be diminished into a dog licking a supreme's hand with hope of some food and being treated well. Or what kind of supreme it is, even, with what kind of morals, who lets it happen??? Who listens to all this Allahu akbar thing from day to day without blushing, and without even trying to stop it??? How can HE be so self-centered??? And, when was the last time anyone saw HIM show any interest in these regions here??? Or show interest in YOU??? So will you continue the licking, and to shun the wisdom of your "mortal" kinsmen, even long after the imaginable supreme has left you and marched away god knows where but probably to some new and more interesting toyworld?

Very questionable ethics, all this.
With love!!! and best illuminative intentions, as always :)

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Originally posted by nevermind:
I am kind of sad because I also thought Karah is pretty intelligent, what else, and it seemed so inconceivable. But i just remembered she is of Polish background, and religion is still rather strongly present in their culture. althoguh why it is so I just do not understand. And also why swap catholicism for islam??? Aren't they so similar? and the catholics at least have prettier churches and ceremonies.

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girl who told you that islam is similar to catholicism? they are completely different especially on the subject of sex!!! care to englighten me??

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Originally posted by nevermind:
I am kind of sad because I also thought Karah is pretty intelligent, what else, and it seemed so inconceivable. But i just remembered she is of Polish background, and religion is still rather strongly present in their culture. althoguh why it is so I just do not understand. And also why swap catholicism for islam??? Aren't they so similar? and the catholics at least have prettier churches and ceremonies.

No, the thought of believing in a superpower, and, the more so, of minioning one with aim of receiving a hefty premie when time comes, is indeed totally inconceivable to me, and it is so cheap, too, selling your soul for some questionable future material convenicnce! Because a human is a most wonderful being full of most wondrous skills and characters. He should not be diminished into a dog licking a supreme's hand with hope of some food and being treated well. Or what kind of supreme it is, even, with what kind of morals, who lets it happen??? And, when was the last time anyone saw HIM show any interest in these regions here??? Or show interest in YOU??? So will you continue the licking, and to shun the wisdom of your "mortal" kinsmen, even long after the imaginable supreme has left you and marched away god knows where but probably to some new and more interesting toyworld?

Very questionable ethics, all this.
With love!!! and best illuminative intentions, as always

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People like you are the ones who are closed minded and alwayes think people who are different to be not intelligiant brainwashed!

Well so many great philosophers and scientists who are much more intilligiant than you believed in God. But is it about intilligiance?

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Originally posted by 7aya:
they are completely different especially on the subject of sex!!!

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Originally posted by Troubles101:

Well so many great philosophers and scientists who are much more intilligiant than you believed in God. But is it about intilligiance?

Yes we believe in all powerful God who cares about us and we see that in his creature everyday

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The word is "intelligence" or even "intellect", Troubles.
And intellect is always relative - you have it always to an extent. More than someone, less than someone else, but never upt to the ultimum quantity because there is probably no ultimate upper limit. Someone somewhere always has more, thank god :).

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Originally posted by nevermind:
The word is "intelligence" or even "intellect", Troubles.
And intellect is always relative - you have it always to an extent. More than someone, less than someone else, but never upt to the ultimum quantity because there is probably no ultimate upper limit. Someone somewhere always has more, thank god .

Anyway, if you then have daily encounters with this being then still how come he lets it all happen - the mad praising on streets??? He must be a very vain creature! Or totally powerless against you all.

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Ah! are we into games now? I can find mistakes with your english too, so what's the point of pointing my mistake? Did you not know what I was talking about or just acting smart?

God simply has set laws for this world which we call law of natures and we were given free choice in many things. Without free choice there is no such a thing as ethics or morals then there is a hereafter where people will be questioned about how did they use there free choice gift.

I have been into this before and it's funny that atheists alwayes think they are smart by negating a creator of all this complex world but once told that a simple watch they wear came out of nothig in a coincidence they will ridicule you...

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Originally posted by nevermind:
But there is no god, as far as we know. If one so easily believes in what does not exist, then technically he or she can be made believe anything! And easily gullible people are really very dangerous to the society, to mankind, because they can be turned into convenient tools for anyone whom they believe.

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Originally posted by nevermind:

You believe she did it for the sake of more liberal sex? That could make sense...
(because there has to be a REASON, I think when a person does something, WHY he or she does it, and it is difficult to see any in this case)

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firstly i mentioned sex as one of the aspects that differs in both religion. i was trying to point that they are not alike as you pointed. i didnt even have kara mia on my mind. its funny the way you connected the two so quickly!
secondly did it ever corss your mind that some people convert because they believe and because it makes them happier. you are free to believe what you want. you want to be a muslim, christian, jew, buddha, athiest i dont care. but have respect for other people's choices

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Originally posted by nevermind:
Thank you Serendipity but I am not questioning all believing as such. Believing is what gives us strenght and the wings to carry on (and carry out most difficult tasks, if neccessary). But it is the matter of WHAT or WHO one believes into. Why not simply believe in yourself or a close person?? The only real evidence of making things work, giving help and assistance and showing mercy points at people, humans, not superbeings.

In the example with physics, we need to believe in physics if want to create things or use physical powers. It is a practical belief and is proved by and until produces the estimated result, too. What practical need is there to believe in a superpower?? Only if one suffers deficit of self-belief.

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Nevermind, i understand your point of view, but I Belive first and last in God, maybe this may not pleasure your mind, but for me it gives me a peace of mind, strength to be strong and carry through this life. I dont want to give all my belives on human beings, we are full of fault and we do mistakes all the time. But imperfections is what makes us perfect. But you can belive in whatever you want, and I will respect you anyway, since as we are free humans with free thoughts all are free to think and to belive in what they think is the right path.

and about physics, no all the proffesors in science and in math and chemistry KNOW that all their basis is on theories, wich means that it is possible that it CAN be true, BUT its not hundred percent right, but untill we find a better and closer theory, these theories will be approved.
many of the math rules that we use, are actually wrong, but we use it anyway since its CLOSE to the reality, but NOT the reality.

In the end all has a brain to use it and think what is wrong from right. And all are free to think about wich way is the right path through life.

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Originally posted by 7aya:
its funny the way you connected the two so quickly!

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Originally posted by Troubles101:
Hmmm did it see newcomer or were my eyes deceiving me? I just had that experince of reading "nevermind"s as "newcomer", it happned to me several times in the past but really once you start reading the bull stuff written you go back and look again to remember the old pro ..Welcome back nevermind!

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And to make it even more complicated someone else has joined using the name "newcomers" but they made it easy to distinguish between us...they wrote in a Scandinavian language, I think it was!

Funny how people who think they are free have such narrow limits to their vision that they won't let themselves contemplate the possibility of there being a God, because if they do it might have some consequences they don't think they want.

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Originally posted by nevermind:
Beacuse karah mia is the specific example on this thread. Noone would blink an eye if a seemingly dumb person converted into whatever, but it this case of course you ask what little bit is missing then. BELIEVE and MAKES THEM HAPPY is very well but WHY believe is exactly what I want to know. WHY? Is there any plausible reason? If being happy is the only reason, then it is not essentially a bad reason (although I know much easier ways of being happy, like simply being happy all the time, at anything, thus enjoying lots of happyness in life!) although a bit self-centered. So because karah mia strives to be more happy, and the happiness of loving her husban is not enough for her, she joins the muslims and begins fighting against e.g. the liberty of women to decide for themselves and thus essentially against me. Because islam is not about setting the rules just for the believing people, it is a very propagandistic religion and takes great pain to set rules for everyone around it. My non belief does not threaten the personal liberty or choices of karah mia, but her belief does threaten mine. That is the problem with islam - you do not only determine for yourselves and in silence, you strive to determine for everybody. When you visit me, you get to wear what and how you please (even the terrifying women wearing totally black totally covering outfits up to gloves and socks). When I visit you, I get rules what and when to wear. Etc. My belief is about flying as high. Yours is about sitting in cage and loving it. And I do not want a caged world! I want a world of free persons educated to the level where they are capable of making good decisions for themselves by themselves and without need for supremes.

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Nevermind, I am myself a muslim ,and what you described is not islam is what YOU belive is islam. so what actually is the diff between someone judging you because your atheist than a person judging me cause i am a muslim. what you belive is freedom is faaaar diff in what I belive is freedom. we werent born alike and we will never think alike. what you think si flying high is for me a nightmare. for me I am flying high with my hijab and flying higher with my belive in Allah. for others its the Belive in Jesus Christ and other the belive in Karma and other the belive of not to belive and the list goes on.
If you think islam is a threat to you, than i think what you just said is a threat to me, since if it were you who would decide than i would not be allowed to wear hijab or to practice my faith.
This is my way of living and I couldnt be more happy than in the state I am in, if there is one thing that has given me strength through all the hell I have been through it has to be my faith.
so what if there is a women wearing all black, Did she beat you up? did she call you names? and do you think in your country she wont be laughed at? where do you live in paradise??
here in Norway oh belive me they laugh at them, look down on them and even hear lecturers all day long from norwegians who like to think of her as oppressed.
Intelligence is not the ability of having no religion and being "free" without any boundaries. No its the ability of respecting your fellow companion no matter if he is jew, christian, muslim or atheist.
I am quite suprised and dissapointed to see this msg. why cant all of you just respect eachothers opinion, why do you want the world to look at things only through your way and what is right for you?
You know atheist is the same as any religion you still think that you are superior to others.

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Originally posted by newcomer:
And to make it even more complicated someone else has joined using the name "newcomers" but they made it easy to distinguish between us...they wrote in a Scandinavian language, I think it was!

Funny how people who think they are free have such narrow limits to their vision that they won't let themselves contemplate the possibility of there being a God, because if they do it might have some consequences they don't think they want.

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LOL Ya Allah!!!! This crazy! I can't tell you how many times I got confused that's why I felt related when Mon Savage wrote your name and then eidted it. Even now I though it was Nevermind making fun of my vision...crazy crazy

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Originally posted by nevermind:
But there is no god, as far as we know.

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Originally posted by Serendipity:

we werent born alike and we will never think alike. what you think si flying high is for me a nightmare. for me I am flying high with my hijab and flying higher with my belive in Allah.
If you think islam is a threat to you, than i think what you just said is a threat to me, since if it were you who would decide than i would not be allowed to wear hijab or to practice my faith.

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Why so pessimistic, Serendipity? Is it something islam teaches you - to not have hope?? I see people from all possible backgrounds understanding each other very well, when they reach the same level of understanding.

When I wrote about being able to fly, I meant being able to exercise your talents and capacities to the maximum. Not sitting in home playing a beautiful clotheshanger and bringing up children. Yes, we have a womb, but we have brains as well. men have only brains so maybe is difficult for them to accept we have both, they'd rather believe we only have the womb and upstairs it is empty.

And you are really very WRONG in saying that if I determined for you I would be a threat for you. it is exactly the biggest difference and exactly what us, the free thinkers are striving for -- that each person should have the right to decide for themselves. You decide what you wear and do with your life and I decide what I wear and do with my life. But you do not decide freely yourself - others have decided for you. Religions on their administrative level are dictatorial systems. They tell you what you do, and if they do it for hundreds of years no wonder you start thinking it is your own will because you no longer know of any other will.

Freedom for each person to choose for himself/herself is what I strive after.
The risk of everyone deciding for himself is smaller than having one person decide for everyone. The dictatorial systems or religions usually protect themselves by saying that human is imperfect and that he is a fool and therefore one must take desisions for him. But the decisionmakers themselves are also just simply humans and also imperfect, so how come they get the right to take their foolish decisions for everyone??

Anyway, so what does islam think of women's right to visit the mosque?? And does your husband also wash hands carefully with soap after he has hugged you and before going there? As if you were a germ..

[This message has been edited by Serendipity (edited 26 June 2005).]

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Originally posted by 7aya:
nevermind, this is typical non-muslim talk. you have a distorted image of islam, you believe its a religions that "cages" women? but it is not.

It is true, 7aya, that is it difficult to distinguish between whether one or another rule comes from islam, from arab culture, or the long-time political system. But I think all three are dictatorial up till now and support centralized decision-making to each person making his own decisions, or personal freedom.

When i say "I am against islam" then it is not really correct, I am against taking this freedom of decision from people themselves, and I cannot be against (since it is their decision and therefor my business) but I am SAD that people need believe in a superpower because they have not enough belief in themselves. The first btw is connected with the other - the more one can decide for himself, the more you succeed and the more you believe in yourself. While if you are treated as a child throughout your life and "old wise people" take all decisions for you... where would the self-belief even come from??

i'm always surprised that western women are scared of the veil. personally i'm not veiled, but i do have respect for veiled women. why does it scare you to cover?

Actually I really love supersized clothing, 7aya. It is really very convenient. But the difference is that i am free to choose supersize clothing even in a society where it is trendy and classy to show skin. I am free to choose any kind of clothing. You are not.

The thing with clothing is that we actually require very little clothing. We were not born with clothes so clothes are unnatural to us but they are comfortable against e.g. cold or heat, as protection. All else is vanity, and a lot about this veiled clothing is also vanity, it is about giving a message of who you are and what kind of person you are, e.g. a very pure very holy almost perfect person. Quite uppish and not very realistic, I think.

And we have tendeency be afraid of veiled women because usually in any culture I believe it is the bad persons who need to cover because they need to hide. It is the first you think of, automatically.
On the other hand, the covering clothing may have been developed partly because of climatic conditions, because when you live in a desert and you have no shade and still need to walk and maybe work, then it is a very practical protection. But in all other aspects less clothes is more natural and also easier, while more clothes is more unnatural for a human and isn't it so time-consuming with all the veils and make-up???

why do you feel the need to show your legs, breasts and ass? does it make you free?

Not being ashamed of yourself is indeed an aspect of freedom. And human body very often is very beautiful, and beauty makes people happy. So - why hide??? No one calls you to follow the trends. Just be yourself!

do you know how many women suffer from low self confidence because they feel their looks are not good enough?

OK, so your solution would be to give them an XXXL galabeyya. My solution would be to teach them love themselves and emphasise their natural beauty. We all have some.

And no, 7aya, I'm not really in any cage, or maybe some small cage that I am so used to that i have completely forgotten, but it cannot be anything important then. I am near to flying, any altitude, any place. I can everything. I fear nothing. And nothing ties me up. It is a great feeling, 7aya!

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Originally posted by Serendipity:
[B]I decided for myself to wear hijab, my sister doesnt wear hijab and she is much older than me.

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Oh, but you are a special case, Serendipity, and a new trend and it is very difficult to make difference between the two - women who choose freely and women for whom their community chooses. I am all for women wearing hijab if it is their personal will to do it, because hijabs are beautiful, they are comfortable for hot climates, and all-in-all it serves for more difference in the world and a more interesting world! Plus, all clothes are costumes to a certain extent, they just help us play the role we wish to play for the others or maybe ourselves. So it doesn''t really matter what ones wears, people wear all kinds of crazy things really. If you feel that there is more freedom for you in hijab than in jeans, and for your cultural environment you are perfectly right to say so, too.

About the outrage in the western world over muslim clothing, I do not think it was we who started it. I am afraid it was you in the first hand who taught protest about clothes, because you protested against our clothes when we came to your country. The world is a lot like a mirror - you get what you give.

I would not be so much concerned in what you believe into, if you'd just do it for yourself. But as I said - you like to dictate a lot. You wake up people 4 o'clock in the morning, just to tell them about your love for the god. It is not only rude but it is also very inconsiderate of other people's feelings, because I may have a different god or maybe no god. And I NEVER spoil your sleep nor your friday afternoon walk in town in this way. Noone would have anything against islam if you'd lean be a tiny bit more discrete and not bother others with your purely personal inclinations.

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Originally posted by nevermind:

About the outrage in the western world over muslim clothing, I do not think it was we who started it. I am afraid it was you in the first hand who taught protest about clothes, because you protested against our clothes when we came to your country. The world is a lot like a mirror - you get what you give.

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Originally posted by nevermind:
Oh, but you are a special case, Serendipity, and a new trend and it is very difficult to make difference between the two - women who choose freely and women for whom their community chooses. I am all for women wearing hijab if it is their personal will to do it, because hijabs are beautiful, they are comfortable for hot climates, and all-in-all it serves for more difference in the world and a more interesting world! Plus, all clothes are costumes to a certain extent, they just help us play the role we wish to play for the others or maybe ourselves. So it doesn''t really matter what ones wears, people wear all kinds of crazy things really. If you feel that there is more freedom for you in hijab than in jeans, and for your cultural environment you are perfectly right to say so, too.

About the outrage in the western world over muslim clothing, I do not think it was we who started it. I am afraid it was you in the first hand who taught protest about clothes, because you protested against our clothes when we came to your country. The world is a lot like a mirror - you get what you give.

I would not be so much concerned in what you believe into, if you'd just do it for yourself. But as I said - you like to dictate a lot. You wake up people 4 o'clock in the morning, just to tell them about your love for the god. It is not only rude but it is also very inconsiderate of other people's feelings, because I may have a different god or maybe no god. And I NEVER spoil your sleep nor your friday afternoon walk in town in this way. Noone would have anything against islam if you'd lean be a tiny bit more discrete and not bother others with your purely personal inclinations.

[This message has been edited by nevermind (edited 26 June 2005).]

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what about the disco music that you can hear from two blocks away and which never seem to stop before 6 oclock in the morning?
and what about the drunk men that by "mistake" rings your doorbell at 4 oclock in the morning just to say "ops sorry didnt know this was ninjas house"

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Originally posted by nevermind:
Don't know. In Alexandria it was no kind of media but my personal boyfriend who said I am not supposed to bikini-sunbathe on public beaches. Not that I need to, but it is kind of sad to look at how many beautiful beaches they hav there and everywhere people are stitting in full clothing under sunshades suffering from heat!
And he said (but THAT is a media story now) that a white girl had been raped in middle of street in Cairo just because she wore a miniskirt. That noone came to help though the street was full of people. As if clothing is a good respectable reason for a man to utilize violence against a woman. It makes the arab countries seem like a huge animal park where you need to watch out for "lions" who cannot control their urges when they smell flesh.

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Originally posted by Mon_Savage:
I want to tell u something nevermind, without attacking cz today i am so happy more than anyone on the earth. whether anyone doesn't agree or does, this is the promise of the God that this RELEGION no matter what, will reach who lives in the far north and the far east and every place on the earth, i am in relation with my wife for more than year, if i wanted to force her i would do that before mariage ( however there is no forcing in the relegions ), but she is even more intellegent and strong openion woman more than anyone here, i didn't tell her anything, i was just like a light for someone was living in the dark, and what u r saying is not going to change the will of the GOD, she got it by her own will not cz of me, and my happyness is that she did it no matter if i will be happy or no.
And she is not the first one or the last one, Mohamed ( Salla Allah 2alaih Wa Sallam ) said ( Islam started strange and will come back again as he started ) sadak al-rasoul al-kareem.
and Karah and the ppl who converted and who will convert( Insha'ALLAH ) WILL PROVE MORE AND MORE THIS.
Yesterday a scientest, today is priest( and it happened many times ), tomorrow more and more.
All what I can say from all my heart welcome My wife, My love, and My life to the light of the trueth, the light of the God, to Mohamed's nation, the nation of ( NO GOD BUT THE GOD, AND MOHAMED THE PROPHET OF THE GOD ) , La Ilah Illa Allah-Mohamed Rassoul Allah ). Let's get out of these lying cz it would stop the islam ( the relegion of the trueth ) of reaching the people, try to read good and analyze by ur brain whitout being ready to attack before knowing, u can see ur self why these ppl r doing that instead of saying fool things it's not usefull. Karah did the best thing in her life, and when we will be standing in from of God, we r going to see who was right and who was wrong, and it became very close.
La Illah Illa Allah Wa7dh
Sadaka Wa3dah
Wa Nasara 3abdah
Wa A3az Gondah Wa Hazam Al-A7zab Wa7dah
La Illah Illa Allah
Wa La Na3bodo Illa Iah
Mo5lesen Laho El-Deen Wa Law Kareha Alkaferon

[This message has been edited by Mon_Savage (edited 25 June 2005).]

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If there will ever be a war muslim vs christians,muslim will have a ARMY wet a bunch of old slut's OMG ROLF

every one can hear u have don ur best to convince the old poor woman so u can use her to support ur hole famely
liek taking candy from a baby
I'm sure ALLAH will be glad an praud of u

KM as an example again, I believe immigrants often have all kinds of insecurities, especially when they are life quality immigrants (I'm going to be one soon myself, because I really miss the simple wholesome life in Egypt but I'm a real brat so no insecurities)
anyway so I believe one of their strives is to be accepted and respected equally to the "natives". And then islam is probably a nice way of gaining the acceptance and respec because as you see even in this forum here - people rush to greet and celebrate. Also in my country I have noticed people join religious groups when they feel lonely and unaccepted by their immediates, e.g. when something happens that suddenly makes everyone turn away from them. And if it makes their life happier then it is not bad, but one should still watch out what these values are that one then supports when supports a religion.

>you know you seem like a very insecure person. if the conversion of karah someone you don't know and probably will never meet scare you so much than you have a problem with your own beliefs.

My beliefs feel OK, thank you, and I have several taimes said that I am not speaking about the PERSON of Karah, but of what she did, as an example of any modern western woman taking a step backwards, never mind through which religion but at least the religions in the west are really dying out so they do not disturb so much.

>its funny that a person like you who is upset that egypt doesnt give you the freedom to wear what you want, is not giving another person the freedom to believe what they want!

BECAUSE (and again, I've said it several times, please READ before you take stands) this kind of (islamic) belief is about limiting people's freedom and finding reasons to look down at them. My kind of belief is giving them more freedom and finding reasons to look up to them. My kind of belief is better for the individual, the person, it helps him become wiser, stronger, more self-sufficient, more appreciated and appreciating others. Her kind of belief is better for the system, it helps keep the individual weak and obeying, and helps those who lead the system to preserve their higher positions or whatever good that comes from channelling large quantities of common resources to a small number of people who then enjoy them.

>do not talk about freedom unless you are willing to give it too.

I am absolutely willing to give any freedom except the freedom to take freedom from me. I accept persons' freedom to make choices for THEMSELVES, but not for the others. Does it make more sense to you now?

>further, the hijab in egypt is not mandatory like in saudi arabia, women here choose to put on the veil. and if they walk without it in the streets nothing will happen.

See - there is development even in arab cultures! But there are still limits to showing flesh.

>and that comment you made about how women on the beaches are dressed just shows how selfish you are! you want everyone to enjoy their time just like you do. you enjoy wearing a bikini so everybody has to wear a bikini!

Again, please be precise, 7aya. NOWHERE did I say eveybody HAS TO do anything. If they would allow me sit there in my tiny polkadots and not oggle, just as I am trying not oggle the girls who go swimming in their jeans and shirts.... everything would be fine! Mutual love!!

>as for that media rape story, we have 23 rapes a day, with an average of one per hour.

Oh, I sincerely believed there are none. And I don't know very much about rapes (would you prefer me to?) so your reasons are new knowledge to me. They make sense.

>your arguments are weak and redundant. and you don't know anything about islam. if i were you i would educate myself a little more, and i would not blame societies troubles on islam. although i know very well who is putting those ideas in your head.

Oh :) a superknowing person? Please, 7aya, no plot theories or me being backed by CIA or CNN or whatever. Of course my arguments are weak, I'm just amusing myself here not leading a broadcasted dispute. And if I do not know anything about islam then from whom, excuse me, should I learn to know it better if not from the very muslims??? The whole row of dispute just started from me wishing to know WHY an educated, intelligent person would choose islam??? giving up her personal freedom and subduing to a tale (a tale! a never yet proven old story) about a superior being. WHY???

quote:

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Originally posted by nevermind:
Originally posted by 7aya:

>did you go to agamy or carbiano beaches??

It doesn't help if there are 2 or 3 "special beaches" where there is freedom, it is about the mainpart where there is no freedom, 7aya.

My beliefs feel OK, thank you, and I have several taimes said that I am not speaking about the PERSON of Karah, but of what she did, as an example of any modern western woman taking a step backwards, never mind through which religion but at least the religions in the west are really dying out so they do not disturb so much.

>its funny that a person like you who is upset that egypt doesnt give you the freedom to wear what you want, is not giving another person the freedom to believe what they want!

BECAUSE (and again, I've said it several times, please READ before you take stands) this kind of (islamic) belief is about limiting people's freedom and finding reasons to look down at them. My kind of belief is giving them more freedom and finding reasons to look up to them. My kind of belief is better for the individual, the person, it helps him become wiser, stronger, more self-sufficient, more appreciated and appreciating others. Her kind of belief is better for the system, it helps keep the individual weak and obeying, and helps those who lead the system to preserve their higher positions or whatever good that comes from channelling large quantities of common resources to a small number of people who then enjoy them.

>do not talk about freedom unless you are willing to give it too.

I am absolutely willing to give any freedom except the freedom to take freedom from me. I accept persons' freedom to make choices for THEMSELVES, but not for the others. Does it make more sense to you now?

>further, the hijab in egypt is not mandatory like in saudi arabia, women here choose to put on the veil. and if they walk without it in the streets nothing will happen.

See - there is development even in arab cultures! But there are still limits to showing flesh.

>and that comment you made about how women on the beaches are dressed just shows how selfish you are! you want everyone to enjoy their time just like you do. you enjoy wearing a bikini so everybody has to wear a bikini!

Again, please be precise, 7aya. NOWHERE did I say eveybody HAS TO do anything. If they would allow me sit there in my tiny polkadots and not oggle, just as I am trying not oggle the girls who go swimming in their jeans and shirts.... everything would be fine! Mutual love!!

>as for that media rape story, we have 23 rapes a day, with an average of one per hour.

Oh, I sincerely believed there are none. And I don't know very much about rapes (would you prefer me to?) so your reasons are new knowledge to me. They make sense.

>your arguments are weak and redundant. and you don't know anything about islam. if i were you i would educate myself a little more, and i would not blame societies troubles on islam. although i know very well who is putting those ideas in your head.

Oh a superknowing person? Please, 7aya, no plot theories or me being backed by CIA or CNN or whatever. Of course my arguments are weak, I'm just amusing myself here not leading a broadcasted dispute. And if I do not know anything about islam then from whom, excuse me, should I learn to know it better if not from the very muslims??? The whole row of dispute just started from me wishing to know WHY an educated, intelligent person would choose islam??? giving up her personal freedom and subduing to a tale (a tale! a never yet proven old story) about a superior being. WHY???

Noone being able to answer...

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but see nevermind this is exactly what i was just talking about. you say there should be more freedom on the beaches, but the definition of freedom differs from person to person. some women would feel that wearing a bikini and having people staring at their flesh constraining and suffocating.
again you say kara took a step backwards. but again that is your opinion. maybe for her being a muslim is a step upwards. maybe it makes her a happier person. ill give you an example, many people believe that having multiple sexual partners, and group sex or orgies is the height of freedom and modernity. but i find this behaviour anmilistic and backwards. we are different people and we have different opinions. and remember what might seem extreme to you could be another person's way of showing devotion to god.

HEADLINE: MY BODY IS MY OWN BUSINESS By Naheed Mustafa

I OFTEN wonder whether people see me as a radical, fundamentalist Muslim terrorist packing an AK-47 assault rifle inside my jean jacket. Or may be they see me as the poster girl for oppressed womanhood everywhere. I'm not sure which it is.

I get the whole gamut of strange looks, stares, and covert glances. You see, I wear the hijab, a scarf that covers my head, neck, and throat. I do this because I am a Muslim woman who believes her body is her own private concern.

Young Muslim women are reclaiming the hijab, reinterpreting it in light of its original purpose to give back to women ultimate control of their own bodies.

The Qur'an teaches us that men and women are equal, that individuals should not be judged according to gender, beauty, wealth, or privilege. The only thing that makes one person better than another is her or his character.

Nonetheless, people have a difficult time relating to me. After all, I'm young, Canadian born and raised, university educated why would I do this to myself, they ask.

Strangers speak to me in loud, slow English and often appear to be playing charades. They politely inquire how I like living in Canada and whether or not the cold bothers me. If I'm in the right mood, it can be very amusing.

But, why would I, a woman with all the advantages of a North American upbringing, suddenly, at 21, want to cover myself so that with the hijab and the other clothes I choose to wear, only my face and hands show?

Because it gives me freedom.

WOMEN are taught from early childhood that their worth is proportional to their attractiveness. We feel compelled to pursue abstract notions of beauty, half realizing that such a pursuit is futile.

When women reject this form of oppression, they face ridicule and contempt. Whether it's women who refuse to wear makeup or to shave their legs, or to expose their bodies, society, both men and women, have trouble dealing with them.

In the Western world, the hijab has come to symbolize either forced silence or radical, unconscionable militancy. Actually, it's neither. It is simply a woman's assertion that judgment of her physical person is to play no role whatsoever in social interaction.

Wearing the hijab has given me freedom from constant attention to my physical self. Because my appearance is not subjected to public scrutiny, my beauty, or perhaps lack of it, has been removed from the realm of what can legitimately be discussed.

No one knows whether my hair looks as if I just stepped out of a salon, whether or not I can pinch an inch, or even if I have unsightly stretch marks. And because no one knows, no one cares.

Feeling that one has to meet the impossible male standards of beauty is tiring and often humiliating. I should know, I spent my entire teenage years trying to do it. It was a borderline bulimic and spent a lot of money I didn't have on potions and lotions in hopes of becoming the next Cindy Crawford.

The definition of beauty is ever-changing; waifish is good, waifish is bad, athletic is good -- sorry, athletic is bad. Narrow hips? Great. Narrow hips? Too bad.

Women are not going to achieve equality with the right to bear their breasts in public, as some people would like to have you believe. That would only make us party to our own objectification. True equality will be had only when women don't need to display themselves to get attention and won't need to defend their decision to keep their bodies to themselves.

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