Then why? Give a purpose... a value-added... whatever it is one can gain from it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by nevermind:
Why? The life is short, the survival takes its share, the competition for the rest of time is really fierce... why would one spend time on a big fat book which as far as we know is either outdated or then batter psychological, medical and political knowledge and advice is available in many other, more concise and more up-to-date books.

Then why? Give a purpose... a value-added... whatever it is one can gain from it.

You muslims are all so uptight about what you know, no wonder then there is so much misunderstanding and no one understand ther might be any value.

---

Well then, Nevermind, WHY for crying out loud you are on this forum? You don't like Egypt and Egyptians (about 90% of the population are Muslims) so whats the purpose?????

Why don't you just stick to an Estonian forum, here is a link:
http://forum.virtualtourist.com/forum-439-1-Travel-Estonia--forum.html

I am sure you will be more helpful and friendly to people (I hope so) and in the end feel better about yourself...... and this is all what matters. Good luck!

quote:

---

Originally posted by egyptourguide:
any Western Muslim or not Muslim want to learn about Koran be welcome contact me
i can offering help like webs in English explain Koran and translate ,meeting another Muslims Westerns or e mail them,institution offering lessons about Koran and for explain Koran ,learning how to read Koran in right way and how to know by heart
you are welcome contact me soha_guide@yahoo.com

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by nevermind:
Why? The life is short, the survival takes its share, the competition for the rest of time is really fierce... why would one spend time on a big fat book which as far as we know is either outdated or then batter psychological, medical and political knowledge and advice is available in many other, more concise and more up-to-date books.

Then why? Give a purpose... a value-added... whatever it is one can gain from it.

You muslims are all so uptight about what you know, no wonder then there is so much misunderstanding and no one understand ther might be any value.

---

never mind
you are out of all the rules
when you talking to Egyptian you must show respect for Koran all respect for the most holly thing in our life
i am challenge you to bring or say one verse like that which existing in our holly book Koran
and until you learn how to talking respect about our religion
you are not welcome in Egypt or in this posts at all

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tigerlily:

Well then, Nevermind, WHY for crying out loud you are on this forum? You don't like Egypt and Egyptians (about 90% of the population are Muslims) so whats the purpose?????

Why don't you just stick to an Estonian forum, here is a link:
http://forum.virtualtourist.com/forum-439-1-Travel-Estonia--forum.html

I am sure you will be more helpful and friendly to people (I hope so) and in the end feel better about yourself...... and this is all what matters. Good luck!

---

So you decided that this forum is only for Muslims.....

She has, like every one else, the right to say what she wants..

If you can not answer her objectively, then that is your fault not hers..

Why is it that some people in the name of Islam, want to shut others up while they always spout out without thinking...

If what I said hurts you, them tough, it is called free debate

quote:

---

Originally posted by egyptourguide:

never mind
you are out of all the rules
when you talking to Egyptian you must show respect for Koran all respect for the most holly thing in our life
i am challenge you to bring or say one verse like that which existing in our holly book Koran
and until you learn how to talking respect about our religion
you are not welcome in Egypt or in this posts at all

[This message has been edited by egyptourguide (edited 14 July 2005).]

---

It is not for you to say who can or cannot post in a public forum.

I do not think the challange about producing a verse ...etc is relevant to some one who does not speak Arabic..

In any case if you put this as your only argument in favour of the Kuran, then you have failed...

In other words it is as if you are saying that the only great thing about Kuran is its liguistic beauty..!!!

I think you should come up with more convincing challange than that...otherwise some one might challenge you to produce a verse or passage as good as that written by Shakespeare ...or else you must hold him holy !!

I do not think you would understand any of the above...but what the hell

I am not Muslima but I DO RESPECT this board and its people which many of them are firm believers in the Koran. Every person should have his freedom to believe and pursue its own religion but also should show TOLERANCE towards other people and their believes.

Nevermind is on this forum to stir constantly trouble, its so sad to see that because of a failure of her own relationship she condemns the whole country and its people.

Guess she should have taken some things here more for granted before she went on her big adventure to Egypt.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tigerlily:

Medosa, just to answer you this much:

I am not Muslima but I DO RESPECT this board and its people which many of them are firm believers in the Koran. Every person should have his freedom to believe and pursue its own religion but also should show TOLERANCE towards other people and their believes.

Nevermind is on this forum to stir constantly trouble, its so sad to see that because of a failure of her own relationship she condemns the whole country and its people.

Guess she should have taken some things here more for granted before she went on her big adventure to Egypt.

---

Tigerlilly

It is laudable of you to have such sentiments towards the people you live amongst, but that is not really the debate here.

It is great to respect others beliefs, but this should not deter anyone from discussing and debating...or even highlighting what they see as shortcoming or even irrelevancies.

Respecting does not mean we cannot discuss, nor does it mean that some people have the right to shut others up.

I cannot see in Nevermind's comments in this particular thread anything disrespectful..I am not interested in any other comments she may have made in the past...

People must not be so sensitive about religious matters, we must not consider every questioning comment or negative posting a blasphemy...

Also people must strive to be even handed (I do not mean you by this), just look and listen to Arabic broadcasts, including those of Egypt and how they portray Judaism and Christianity, before we demand people of other faith showing utmost respect to Islam...respect MUST be MUTUAL first.

I did assume you speak Arabic , if not then you do not hear the half of it !

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tigerlily:

You might not see anything disrespectful in Nevermind's posting because you are one of a kind.

---

Thrawing accusations is not a debate..

One of a knid ...what does that mean ?

I wish you can be a little more objective and point out exactly which sentence in what Nevermind said was so disrespectful or offensive.....Negative yes...Questioning yes

but nothing else

In short, you could be more objective. Objectivity... ever heard?????
And my relationship is fine, thank you, even though there are 5000 km between me and my habibi right now... but there are people worse off here on ES

& thank you for visiting the Estonian forum.

Egypttourguide, no respect is automatic and (VERY importantly!) you do not need dependent on the respect of others. Others may be ignorant, stupid or evil, or they may have any other cause. If you let yourself always be influenced by them and their opinions, you'll be like a weathercock always turning where the winds blow you.

Stand strong and do not mind so much what others think! they may be wrong...

In short: respect needs be earned. Work on it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by nevermind:
I have trouble with ... who in short do not respect other people and what they believe in.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by egyptourguide:
any Western Muslim or not Muslim want to learn about Koran be welcome contact me
i can offering help like webs in English explain Koran and translate ,meeting another Muslims Westerns or e mail them,institution offering lessons about Koran and for explain Koran ,learning how to read Koran in right way and how to know by heart
you are welcome contact me soha_guide@yahoo.com

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny:
I would like to understand what is written in this book that inspires 4/5 young British men to kill 56 ( so far) innocent people going about their daily lives.
Is it just a matter of interpretation of how it is written or does it clearly ask this of it's followers. These men clearly believe this is what the books tells them to do if they would give thier lives up in such a terrifying manner.

---

PENNY
what happen not because of religion but because of politician
most of the world not a Muslim countries do you find this happen in any other country refused to share in the war
if you saw about 56civilians in your country that happened for them what about more than 1 million Iraqi and Palestine killed by worser way(abu ghareb jail)
i do not support any one kill or any one attack the civilians people from any country but please be justify and find whose created enemies for you
how your solders be in another country killing civilians all the time and you want feel peace
who started all of that ?

Troubles101,tiger, and any one else agree or disagree with me but was polite person just to say (thank you)
and for diana_ivanova,Paint Me As I Am
you are welcome
this is some webs about islam in english http://www.islamicity.com/
www.beconvinced.com/INTRO
http://www.irw.org/howyoucanhelp/
http://www.msa-natl.org/resources/Relief_Orgs.html

for islam pray try this
httwww.islamhouse.com www.islamic-message.net www.islamguide.com
p://www.islam.com/salat/salatfinal.html
for translait KORAN http://www.islamcall.com/translates_q.htm

and if you need to know more you are welcome contact me

quote:

---

Originally posted by egyptourguide:
what happen not because of religion but because of politician

---

Don't know... As far as I see it, you are a not a politician (?) but a devoted muslima (?) AND you are also one of the more hostile persons here on this forum...
???

You ATTACK very easily, for no more than a word, sometimes. What makes you so aggressive then? Why you need to attack at once? Does not your religion, your BOOK, teach you patience, understanding and forgivance, like mu human views and books by wise humans teach to me??

Why you need be the first to attack, egyptourguide?

quote:

---

Originally posted by nevermind:
Don't know... As far as I see it, you are a not a politician (?) but a devoted muslima (?) AND you are also one of the more hostile persons here on this forum...
???

You ATTACK very easily, for no more than a word, sometimes. What makes you so aggressive then? Why you need to attack at once? Does not your religion, your BOOK, teach you patience, understanding and forgivance, like mu human views and books by wise humans teach to me??

Why you need be the first to attack, egyptourguide?

(Love!!!!!)

---

I wasn’t implying that the evidence isn’t pointing in the direction that at least three of the people suspected of this crime are Muslims, but what I was implying was that it used to be that people were presumed innocent until proven guilty, but today that rule seems to have disappeared, particularly if the suspects are Muslims. Extra-judicial decisions of “guilty” seem to be the norm now. I know that I am probably guilty of being more sensitive in this case due to the fact that it is happening to Muslims and because Muslims as a whole are feeling the impact of that assumption. And I am doubly sensitive that it is happening to British Muslims too; it’s a natural feeling that anyone would feel if it was happening to someone they were associated with. It’s always easier for any of us to be able to point the finger at the others rather than a group that we have affiliations with. I am also not trying to say that a people who profess to the Muslim faith don’t commit crimes, a few obviously do, but all that doesn’t detract from what is happening today and that easy assumptions of guilt are being made of Muslims if the evidence seems to point in a direction that fits with current preconceptions, without recourse to the due process of law or letting it take its full course. Interestingly I read the other day that a recent American report only actually attributes 16% of "terrorist activities" to Muslims!(Sorry it said 19%: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1684077,00.html)

As three of the people suspected of causing the explosions are Muslims, is seems to be assumed that the 4th suspect is too and that the link must be with Al-Qaidah, whatever that nebulous body is! It’s strange also how anyone who is a Muslim and has radical ideas or is suspected of committing radical acts is now assumed to be doing it under the umbrella of Al-Qaidah, as if that is the source of all and any responses to any discontent felt by any Muslim anywhere! I suppose it is neater to assume that and fits in with preconceived ideas that are being propagated about Muslims and what they believe.

The fact that the explosion was possibly caused by the same type of explosive used by Richard Reid and in the Madrid bombing doesn’t necessarily link the three incidents…I understand that it is very easy to get information about bomb-making on the internet these days and if the ingredients used were, as I read, easily obtainable in local shops. That would obviously make it the choice of anyone who didn’t have connections to people who could get explosives and would remove the need for an outside agency.

I can’t even try to answer your question about what they might have been taught to make them do it. Having no experience of being taught anything that would make me want to blow up an underground train and also not having attended any talks or read anything in all the time that I have been a Muslim that would make it justifiable. In fact all I have learned and been taught tells me that it is not an Islamically permitted action.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny:
I can more than understand why Muslims are upset at what is happening in their countries and my question is not about religion or politics but what is it that is actually written in the Koran as a book (the subject of this thread) that is being taught to these young men to make them feel this is the right way to go about resolving the issues that so many people regardless of religion are against.

---

Penny, There was a woman the prophet said she will be punished in the hereafter because she locked a cat in a room without providing it with food and water untill it died, What would you expect a religion who gives such a strict commands about animals rights to say about the value of Innocent human lifes?

"...if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. " Qur'an 005.032.

God also commanded believers to struggle for good humanly causes, to help others, to cooperate for the good.

I don't see any Islamic bases for such things but rather religion was used as a tool in this politican battle and to avoid the clear condemnation from Qur'an against taking innocent lives, some terms were redefined like "innocence". Bin Laden and his group would redefine the innocence of civilians and say that Americans for example pay taxes which make them as responsible as their government but this again makes even Muslims as guilty as their governments which Bin Laden call them "infidels".

Once you start twisting things everything is allowed and everything can be used and it doesn't matter whether you follow holy book or no book as long as hatred and anger is the motive.

Those things were not common some yrs ago but the political enviroment recently became evry encouraging. Injustice from the west makes it hard for religious scholar to be heared around here and makes it easier for young men to suck what ppl like Bin Laden says just like how Americans sucked what Bush said when they were hit

quote:

---

Originally posted by diana_ivanova:
shukran Soha,
ill take a look on the sites u gave me,thx for your help!
Take care

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny:
I can more than understand why Muslims are upset at what is happening in their countries and my question is not about religion or politics but what is it that is actually written in the Koran as a book (the subject of this thread) that is being taught to these young men to make them feel this is the right way to go about resolving the issues that so many people regardless of religion are against.

Hi Newcomer there is not much doubt these young men are the culprits they were picked up on CCTV and the explosives have been found at their houses, where they have been missing from since the incident. You are right not much is known yet about the 4th possibly Jamacian man, they are also looking for a fith man who is thought to be the connection with an Alqueda network/cell and entered the country illegaly a short while ago.

---

in the name of ALLAH ((
8. Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo ! Allah loveth the just dealers.

9. Allah forbiddeth you only those who warred against you on account of religion and have driven you out from your homes and helped to drive you out, that ye make friends of them. Whosoever maketh friends of them (All) such are wrong doers.))

FORE MORE TRY http://www.islamcall.com/translates_q.htm

quote:

---

Originally posted by egyptourguide:
PENNY
what happen not because of religion but because of politician
most of the world not a Muslim countries do you find this happen in any other country refused to share in the war
if you saw about 56civilians in your country that happened for them what about more than 1 million Iraqi and Palestine killed by worser way(abu ghareb jail)
i do not support any one kill or any one attack the civilians people from any country but please be justify and find whose created enemies for you
how your solders be in another country killing civilians all the time and you want feel peace
who started all of that ?

Troubles101,tiger, and any one else agree or disagree with me but was polite person just to say (thank you)
and for diana_ivanova,Paint Me As I Am
you are welcome
this is some webs about islam in english http://www.islamicity.com/
www.beconvinced.com/INTRO
http://www.irw.org/howyoucanhelp/
http://www.msa-natl.org/resources/Relief_Orgs.html

for islam pray try this
httwww.islamhouse.com www.islamic-message.net www.islamguide.com
p://www.islam.com/salat/salatfinal.html
for translait KORAN http://www.islamcall.com/translates_q.htm

and if you need to know more you are welcome contact me

[This message has been edited by egyptourguide (edited 15 July 2005).]

---

But why do muslim always mix there believe in this bad act "allah akbar" everytime they kill someone, complite innocent soul

I seems religiøs ppl always are morons

quote:

---

Originally posted by Morgan:

I seems religiøs ppl always are morons

---

So you mean that 80% or more of world's population which various religious backgrounds are morons? Seriously I feel very unsafe know........

And I do believe ignorance is a sin.

quote:

---

Originally posted by newcomer:
Hi Penny!

I think we’d all like to understand what made them do it, if it does turn out that they definitely did. Unless you can actually talk to the individual/s it’s difficult to try work out what the combination of factors is that motivates anyone to commit a horrendous crime, anything else is just supposition. From the news I’ve read so far, they don’t seem to know very much about the 4th suspect yet. They just say that was Jamaican born.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Morgan:
be more updatet 3 from pakistan 1 from egypt an 1 from suth amerika

---

Morgan no if they were born in the UK then they are British and they grew up in British society...it does not matter where their family came from originally. The Egyptian one is new news today will find out a bit more later.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Morgan:
But why do muslim always mix there believe in this bad act "allah akbar" everytime they kill someone, complite innocent soul

I seems religiøs ppl always are morons

---

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Penny, There was a woman the prophet said she will be punished in the hereafter because she locked a cat in a room without providing it with......cut to avoid repetition........

Some good links about this subject : http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

End Quote

==========================================================================================

Hello Penny

While troubles101 answer is true in its quotations and the story it relates. Sadly it is not the full picture.

With greatest respect, and I will choose my words very carefully to avoid as much as I can any misunderstadings.

It has to be stated the the Quran has many, many passages that can at least be interpreted to urge its followers to fight and kill those who do not follow Islam. It also seems to promise them the highest rewards in paradise.

I did very carefully say "can be interpreted, and seem", because this is exactly how the exteremists interpret and teach them.

I think this may directly answer your questions, as to why those young men did what they did.

As to where you find these, it would not be in the sites troubles101 told you about, those are sites for muhajabat,which means veild women, in other words sites chosen for women. So not directly relating to your question.

If you want to find where the passages I talk about are , then do a search for a site that has the FULL TEXT of Quran, and then from within do a search for keywords like fight, kill, death, jehad, non believers...etc

You will then find the relevant passages.

If I chose for you some passages, I will be accused of being selective and misrepresenting Islam with mischief in mind, also this can go into many pages.

Therefore, to be as fair as possible, I have to say to you, do your search...read, may be ask further questions.

But it is better to study the full text of the whole of Quran.

Now I hope that before anyone comments on this , please read it carefully before you start shouting any accusations...

Addendum

Here is one searchable site.. but there are many others.. I chose this because it is easy to use being a university site.
http://etext.virginia.edu/koran.html

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny:
Thank you Medosa for giving an honest answer, I will study further as you suggest. If the problems arise in interpreation I do find myself asking why would God leave us with so much confusion in his book. After all he created us and knows we are imperfect creature so could he not have sent down a book that clear and simple.

---

Penny
You are right...

If the problem is in iterpretation only...but without seeming to deviate from impartiality...is it ?

I will leave it to you to study and make up your own mind if it is a question of interpretation only.

Whether any book, not just the Quran, is the word of God or not, is a question each person must ask him(her)self, not first, but after reading and fully understanding..

I hope by being so careful I have not inflamed any sensibilities here...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Medosa:
Hello Penny

While troubles101 answer is true in its quotations and the story it relates. Sadly it is not the full picture.

With greatest respect, and I will chose my words very carefully to avoid as much as I can any misunderstadings.

It has to be stated the the Quran has many, many passages that can at least be interpreted to urge its followers to fight and kill those who do not follow Islam. It also seems to promise them the highest rewards in paradise.

---

Now compare this with :

And fight in the way of God, against those who fight you, and do not transgress [this limit]; Indeed, God does not like the transgressors. (Al-Baqarah 2: 190)

Those who kill civilians indeed are the transgressors by God's words.

"...if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. " Qur'an 005.032

Muslims are commanded to fight but who? Fight those who we call terroirsts , who oppress and perscute others:

"And why should ye not fight in the cause of God and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated and oppressed - women and children, whose cry is 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will help!'"

Has Islam meant something else the prophet pbuh wouldn't make command protecting civilians of Non Muslims ""Do not kill any old person, any child or any woman" (Abu Dawud). "Do not kill the monks in monasteries" or "Do not kill the people who are sitting in places of worship" (Musnad of Ibn Hanbal).

quote:

---

I did very carefully say "can be interpreted, and seem", because this is exactly how the exteremists interpret and teach them.

I think this may directly answer your questions as to why those young men did what they did.

---

There is no doubt that anyone can twist the meaning and context of anything to fit their agenda. You can make all kinds of interpretations from any book but the question is do any of those extreme interepretations have any ground in Islam i the light of the clear message ? Hitler quoted the Bible, does this make it that the Bible support Him or his interpretation? I don't see the logic here. We are talking about 14 centuries of Islamic scholarship (including that Of Traditionals, Salafi, Sufi, Shia etc) not some deviant tiny group.

quote:

---

As to where you find these, it would not be in the sites troubles101 told you about, those are sites for muhagabat,which means veild women in other words sites chosen for women. So not directly relating to your question.

---

Huh?! Have you somehow declared yourself as a new prophet or Magician who can tell whether something is relevant or not without looking at it? Open the link first and see if it's relevant to the discussion or not! It has collection of links to articles from different web sites and quote the words of Most Known Scholars of the Islamic world and also cover the issue of terrorism from Islamic point of view.

quote:

---

If you want to find where the passages I talk about are , then do a search for a site that has the FULL TEXT of Quran, and then from within do a search for keywords like fight, kill, death, jehad, non belivers...etc

You will then find the relevant passages.

If I chose for you some passages, I will be accused of being selective and misrepresenting Islam with mischief in mind, also this can go into many pages.

Therefore to be as fair as possible I have to say to you do your search...read, may be ask further questions.

But it is better to study the full text of the whole of Quran.

Now I hope that before anyone comments on this , please read it carefully before you start shouting any accusations...

Addendum

Here is one searchable site.. but there are many others.. I chose this because it is easy to use being a university site. http://etext.virginia.edu/koran.html

---

You talk as if you brough some hidden secret that we didn't know?We are not talking about the Talmud, or were we? Qur'an is everywhere for anyone to read and study, We are not hiding it!

The idea about make search for specific words is a distortion of the text. One has to read the book and not sellect some verses and ignore others and then make a conlusion. Also you have the background of the Qur'anic stories and Hadith. Our sources are everywhere and it's up to fairness of those who read to decide what to conlude.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny:
Thank you Medosa for giving an honest answer, I will study further as you suggest. If the problems arise in interpreation I do find myself asking why would God leave us with so much confusion in his book. After all he created us and knows we are imperfect creature so could he not have sent down a book that clear and simple.

---

No matter how clear and simple any book is there will alwayes be all kind of twisting made by those with deviant agenda. The Qur'an is clear in many issues yet you will find people who adhere to thiings that have no bases in Islam and they try to connect it with the religion and this happen with every religion and sane practices will even happen if no religion exists because it''s based on hate not the love and mercy of God. I don't think that Terrorism should be even seen related to any religion be it Islam, Christianity or Judaism . Terrorism is a "religion" by itself, It's based on many factors like Poverty, illitracy, humilation, injustice, psychic of hate and others which are the pillars which inspire this creed not religious books, and if not addressed it will bring more and more followers to it

No sensibilities raised here as what you said was just what Troubles said in different words, and what I implied. Yes, there are statements in the Qur’an and the Hadith that do urge Muslims to fight, particularly against those who take their rights and commit injustices, (as there are also in the Bible) but there are an equal, if not greater number of verse, that tell Muslims how to treat other people and if they have to fight them, the ethics and the rules that go along with that. So yes, if verses or Hadith are taken out of context and the other verses or Hadith are ignored, or even twisted to give other meanings or given other words in translation, you can build a very negative picture and one that could be used to urge people to mistakenly do things in the name of Islam. It is of course easier to do this if people are feeling aggrieved and want to strike back. It gives them an apparent justification for what they want to do. As was mentioned above, this is the case with all politicians who want to get other people to do what they want, they tell lies, half truths, and persuade people that their mission is to do good. The answers above were honest, we said Islam as a whole doesn’t support theses actions, but if people pick and chose verses without proper knowledge, they can be made to say anything. That is why we are advised to consult the scholars who have a deeper understanding if we do not know, rather than make misconstrued personal interpretations.

(Sorry for repeating much of what was said above, it was posted while I was writing!)

quote:

---

Originally posted by newcomer:

(Sorry for repeating much of what was said above, it was posted while I was writing!)

[This message has been edited by newcomer (edited 16 July 2005).]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troubles101:
You talk as if you brough some hidden secret that we didn't know?We are not talking about the Talmud, or were we? Qur'an is everywhere for anyone to read and study, We are not hiding it!

The idea about make search for specific words is a distortion of the text. One has to read the book and not sellect some verses and ignore others and then make a conlusion. Also you have the background of the Qur'anic stories and Hadith. Our sources are everywhere and it's up to fairness of those who read to decide what to conlude.

[This message has been edited by Troubles101 (edited 16 July 2005).]

---

Since the question by Penny was where are the passages used by the terrorists as justifications..then the key words I have given are relevant to locate those passages...is this unfair?

How could it possibly be a distortion of the text, if what you will find is the original text..I have not invited her to read only one sentense or passage...when she finds a passage she can read as little or as much as she wants..even the whole Sura.

Also did I or did I not say.. READ THE WHOLE BOOK...

So what have you brought that is new..

Some selected passages.....You know as well as every one does that there are many other passages..

I have refrained from quoting, for the exact reason we just talked about...that is so people can find for themselves..and cannot accuse me of bias.

The sites you quoted (links within links...etc).. scholars who may or may not be biased..in fact by definition since they are Islamic scholars they cannot present an unbiased view ,,can they ?

SO.what is wrong with going directly to the source...as you said it is not a secret is it?

I know absolutely nothing as to why the Talmud is a secret...and this certainly does not impress me one little bit...but it is not relevant to this discussion unless you want a diversion.

quote:

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Originally posted by newcomer:
Hi Medosa and Penny!

No sensibilities raised here as what you said was just what Troubles said in different words, and what I implied. Yes, there are statements in the Qur’an and the Hadith that do urge Muslims to fight, particularly against those who take their rights and commit injustices, (as there are also in the Bible)
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Thank you for a very moderate and reasoned discussion, the type we should have at all times here.

first:
[AS I said earlier I will not quote..I will only state what is there..then others can search....find...understand...then come here and say to me yes that is right...or no you are wrong... there is no such thing there or you misunderstood it...]

Then:

But sadly there are passages that urge fighting against those who have not accepted islam and applied its rules from among those who recieved earlier prophets (i.e. Jews and Christians)

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but there are an equal, if not greater number of verse, that tell Muslims how to treat other people and if they have to fight them, the ethics and the rules that go along with that. So yes, if verses or Hadith are taken out of context and the other verses or Hadith are ignored, or even twisted to give other meanings or given other words in translation, you can build a very negative picture and one that could be used to urge people to mistakenly do things in the name of Islam. It is of course easier to do this if people are feeling aggrieved and want to strike back. It gives them an apparent justification for what they want to do. As was mentioned above, this is the case with all politicians who want to get other people to do what they want, they tell lies, half truths, and persuade people that their mission is to do good. The answers above were honest, we said Islam as a whole doesn’t support theses actions, but if people pick and chose verses without proper knowledge, they can be made to say anything. That is why we are advised to consult the scholars who have a deeper understanding if we do not know, rather than make misconstrued personal interpretations.

(Sorry for repeating much of what was said above, it was posted while I was writing!)

[This message has been edited by newcomer (edited 16 July 2005).]

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If the majority of Muslims share this point of view and TEACH IT.

If the majority of Muslims feel they do not have to declare a perpetual war of Jehad against others of other faiths or those of no faith....

If Muslims could believe that it is possible to separate religion from politcs and not insist on countires having a "religion", disregarding others of different or no faith in that country..

If the majority of Muslims do not harbour feelings of aggression against others,,,and look upon them as religious inferiors.

If all the above is true there would be no terrorism today...at least not religious terrorism..

So many ifs ,,,then we can have peace !!!!

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Originally posted by newcomer:
Islamic scholars will give an interpretation of the verses and Hadith based on their study of a subject, in the same way that a doctor will make a diagnosis based on his studies. If a matter is a simple one you will go to ask the local general practitioner, but if it is a deeper more complex problem, you go to consult the best specialist you can find with the best reputation in his field. If you are new to the subject, you will usually go to a specialist that is recommended by someone you can trust or someone who has experience in the field. True he may favour a particular school of thought in relation to his field, but you would still expect him to give a learned professional opinion on the matter. True also you could read through the text books yourself, but you may not understand all the implications of the words, miss looking up some vital key words, not read all the relevant books related to the subject, and due to lack of training you may miss some vital clues as to the remedy.

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Sorry this is totally fallacious....

Since Islamic scholars have an Islamic view point and "an axe to grind"...you cannot use the analogy of a doctor.

But if you insist it would be like a patient with cancer Prostate going to a Gynaecologist for advice..

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Originally posted by Newcomer:

you say

True also you could read through the text books yourself, but you may not understand all the implications of the words, miss looking up some vital key words, not read all the relevant books related to the subject, and due to lack of training you may miss some vital clues as to the remedy.
[/B]

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I am sorry I cannot accept this argument..

A holy book is supposed to be "sent" to everyone, not the select few.

If it is too cryptic or difficult for Joe Bloggs to understand, then forgive me in saying it would have failed its message.

You do not write a letter to some one and ask them to get a scholar to expain it.

Also I am sorry, but I do not think that clerics of any religion are more intellegent than I am, in fact most of them have only studied one religion and nothing else and have a very narrow view point.

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Originally posted by Medosa:
[B]
[quote]Since the question by Penny was where are the passages used by the terrorists as justifications..then the key words I have given are relevant to locate those passages...is this unfair?

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When Penny asked about what in this book inspired people to kill innocents, My answer was certainly nothing and still the same and this is the whole picture as I see, while your reply" It has to be stated the the Quran has many, many passages that can at least be interpreted to urge its followers to fight and kill those who do not follow Islam. It also seems to promise them the highest rewards in paradise" and by this you opned the door for an interpretation which is groundless in Islam and you called it "AT LEAST seem to urge its followers to..." and accused me of not giving the whole picture? Should I present basless interpretation of Islam as an alternative interpretation to give whole picture?

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How could it possibly be a distortion of the text, if what you will find is the original text..I have not invited her to read only one sentense or passage...when she finds a passage she can read as little or as much as she wants..even the whole Sura.

Also did I or did I not say.. READ THE WHOLE BOOK...

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Which I have missed and I apologize for this.

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So what have you brought that is new..

Some selected passages.....You know as well as every one does that there are many other passages..

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Again you seem to imply that since People like Bin Laden can quote Qur'an then my interpretation is as equal as his, and of course Hitler's interpretation is as equal of the Gospel as that of Jesus and our interpretation of the Law is as equal as that of criminals who twist it to get what they want...You see the logic of this?

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refrained from quoting, for the exact reason we just talked about...that is so people can find for themselves..and cannot accuse me of bias.

The sites you quoted (links within links...etc).. scholars who may or may not be biased..in fact by definition since they are Islamic scholars they cannot present an unbiased view ,,can they ?

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Can the non Muslim scholars give unbias view when speaking of Islam? Will the opinion of Pophet Muhammad and his appointed Khulafa be weightless when speaking of Islam because he is Muslim? My point was to say that if such interpretation had any ground in Islam you would have seen a siginificant contribution of such a claim withing the Muslim scholarship. Ignoring the scholarship of 14 cenuries of Islam and treating it in the same way as a tiny unrecognized group is Like treating Most lawyers opinion as the opinion of a reader of the law.

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is wrong with going directly to the source...as you said it is not a secret is it?

I know absolutely nothing as to why the Talmud is a secret...and this certainly does not impress me one little bit...but it is not relevant to this discussion unless you want a diversion.

I think I see your words better now and while I still disagree with what You wrote but I do respect your approach.

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Originally posted by Medosa:
If the majority of Muslims share this point of view and TEACH IT.If the majority of Muslims feel they do not have to declare a perpetual war of Jehad against others of other faiths or those of no faith....

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Didn't I quote you the majority Opinion and sadly you called it bias?

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If Muslims could believe that it is possible to separate religion from politcs and not insist on countires having a "religion", disregarding others of different or no faith in that country.

If the majority of Muslims do not harbour feelings of aggression against others,,,and look upon them as religious inferiors.

If all the above is true there would be no terrorism today...at least not religious terrorism..

So many ifs ,,,then we can have peace !!!!

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Interesting! Have you been reading about the contribution of Muslims to terrorism statics?

Perhaps when you stop blaming Muslims for everything and treat them justly then terrorism from withing Muslims may stop. But how about terrorism from Christians, Jews, Atheists..etc? can your eyes open more to see those groups as well?

You have gone extreme just like those Muslims who blame Jews for everything or those Christians who blame Muslims for everything. Too bad I thought you will bring some balance here.

You read too much protocols of Bin Laden?

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Originally posted by Troubles101:
Interesting! Have you been reading about the contribution of Muslims to terrorism statics?

Perhaps when you stop blaming Muslims for everything and treat them justly then terrorism from withing Muslims may stop. But how about terrorism from Christians, Jews, Atheists..etc? can your eyes open more to see those groups as well?

You have gone extreme just like those Muslims who blame Jews for everything or those Christians who blame Muslims for everything. Too bad I thought you will bring some balance here.

You read too much protocols of Bin Laden?

[This message has been edited by Troubles101 (edited 16 July 2005).]

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In fact I wish that you are right that the majority of Muslims hold such moderate views...Not only I wish so but it would be woundrfull if it were true...

But it is not just by you saying or I am saying..

Take this forum as an example, even if it is a poor one... when you read through, you will get a very different flavour.

I do not blame everything on Islam, not at all, and I wish of you after being so objective , not to recourse to this.

In fact if we take this forum as an example still, some christian conrtibuters do express extreme views too...and offensive remarks...etc...no I do not blame everything on Islam or Muslims.

There remains sadly still one fact that niether of us can ignore or wish away , althogh I for one would love to wish it away.

That fact is that the world today is in the grip of a huge terrorist threat..that threat cloacks itself with Islam (rightly in the perpetrators view wrongly in yours)...

You share the same faith....therefore you have a MUCH GREATER AND MORE IMPORTANT ROLE TO PLAY IN COMBATING THIS THREAT...than any one else..... this should not be taken to mean any blame is placed upon you Muslims...no not at all...just an obligation and a resposibility to do all you can.

And as in Islamic text to the approximate meaning " If you cannot change it by your hand, then do by your word, and if not then by your heart but this is the weakest of faith."

Silence can sometimes be taken as approval

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Originally posted by Medosa:
If the majority of Muslims share this point of view and TEACH IT.

If the majority of Muslims feel they do not have to declare a perpetual war of Jehad against others of other faiths or those of no faith....

If Muslims could believe that it is possible to separate religion from politcs and not insist on countires having a "religion", disregarding others of different or no faith in that country..

If the majority of Muslims do not harbour feelings of aggression against others,,,and look upon them as religious inferiors.

If all the above is true there would be no terrorism today...at least not religious terrorism..

So many ifs ,,,then we can have peace !!!!

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Actually the majority of Muslims do teach what I wrote, it’s the minority that doesn’t, and I can assure you that the thought of declaring a perpetual war of Jihad against others of other faiths or those of no faith has never crossed the mind of the majority of the 5 billion Muslims in the world and they harbour no feelings of aggression to others…

I could answer some more of your “ifs” but I’ll counter with a few of my own:

If the Muslims of Pakistani origins in Britain hadn’t been subjected to years of racism, “Paki-bashing”, and incendiary bombs being thrown through their living room windows after they were brought to Britain to supplement the labour force…

If the Muslims in Palestine weren’t subjected to the daily humiliations of life under a brutal occupying force that was supported by external finance and political support…

If the people of Iraq weren’t discounted as “collateral damage” and not even worthy of having their dead counted by their occupying force…

If the Muslims in Chechnya, Kashmir, Algeria, Uzbekistan, India, Burma, Thailand, China, etc. were allowed to live their lives freely without oppression and practice their faith freely…

If the rulers of some Muslim countries weren’t so power hungry that they ignored the needs of their people in favour of other considerations…

If those of other faiths didn’t think that they could tell Muslims what parts of their faith it was acceptable for them to believe without understanding it fully…

We wouldn’t have such a breeding ground for all the anger being felt by many Muslims in the world today that is making some of them resort to radical actions to express their frustrations. I am by no means justifying the actions that are perpetrated by people professing to Islam, just expressing some of the underlying sentiments. And what I have written is not new, any more than what you wrote is…but we all just have to try to see both sides of the argument before we can work to a resolution.