quote:

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Originally posted by Medosa:
Sorry this is totally fallacious....

Since Islamic scholars have an Islamic view point and "an axe to grind"...you cannot use the analogy of a doctor.

But if you insist it would be like a patient with cancer Prostate going to a Gynaecologist for advice..

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Medical doctors have a medical point of view which is different from a herbalist, a homeopath, an acupuncturist, etc. They too have their school of thought. Your bias in favour of the western medical system is showing as much as your bias against Islamic scholarship…have you never heard someone wanting a second opinion when they were not satisfied with what one doctor says or seeking alternative medicine instead? And using your analogy, I wouldn’t go to a scholar of Islamic creed if I wanted a legal opinion on a matter, he would obviously have some relevant knowledge, but not the specialist knowledge I wanted.

quote:

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Originally posted by newcomer:
Actually the majority of Muslims do teach what I wrote, it’s the minority that doesn’t, and I can assure you that the thought of declaring a perpetual war of Jihad against others of other faiths or those of no faith has never crossed the mind of the majority of the 5 billion Muslims in the world and they harbour no feelings of aggression to others…

I could answer some more of your “ifs” but I’ll counter with a few of my own:

If the Muslims of Pakistani origins in Britain hadn’t been subjected to years of racism, “Paki-bashing”, and incendiary bombs being thrown through their living room windows after they were brought to Britain to supplement the labour force…

If the Muslims in Palestine weren’t subjected to the daily humiliations of life under a brutal occupying force that was supported by external finance and political support…

If the people of Iraq weren’t discounted as “collateral damage” and not even worthy of having their dead counted by their occupying force…

If the Muslims in Chechnya, Kashmir, Algeria, Uzbekistan, India, Burma, Thailand, China, etc. were allowed to live their lives freely without oppression and practice their faith freely…

If the rulers of some Muslim countries weren’t so power hungry that they ignored the needs of their people in favour of other considerations…

If those of other faiths didn’t think that they could tell Muslims what parts of their faith it was acceptable for them to believe without understanding it fully…

We wouldn’t have such a breeding ground for all the anger being felt by many Muslims in the world today that is making some of them resort to radical actions to express their frustrations. I am by no means justifying the actions that are perpetrated by people professing to Islam, just expressing some of the underlying sentiments. And what I have written is not new, any more than what you wrote is…but we all just have to try to see both sides of the argument before we can work to a resolution.

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With that I have no argument at all...

I do see the otherside...if you can call it that...since I am of that very same side..if you see what I mean..

Also it is not just pakistani muslims who were subjected to racial abuse in Britain, Indians were, blacks were...

But you have to admit that britain has done a lot to combat that.

Also in Plastine, not only Muslims but Christians too...

And that goes for all other examples you have given.

Iraq for instance... you cannot deny that in Britain 2 million people went out on demostrations to object, against their government...

I am not trying to minimize the significance of the examples you gave..not at all ...just as I am glad to read you saying this does not justify terrorism.

Yes the world is full of injustice on that we agree....may be we can also agree that minimizing rather than maximizing our differences may help too

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Originally posted by newcomer:
Medical doctors have a medical point of view which is different from a herbalist, a homeopath, an acupuncturist, etc. They too have their school of thought. Your bias in favour of the western medical system is showing as much as your bias against Islamic scholarship…have you never heard someone wanting a second opinion when they were not satisfied with what one doctor says or seeking alternative medicine instead? And using your analogy, I wouldn’t go to a scholar of Islamic creed if I wanted a legal opinion on a matter, he would obviously have some relevant knowledge, but not the specialist knowledge I wanted.

It seems that you are judging Islam, its books, and its scholars by the standards you judge and perceive your own “religion”. Maybe your holy book was sent as a letter to everybody for then to interpret as they chose, mine was sent to a Prophet and he helped people to understand it by his example. In fact Allah said in His Book that we must refer to the Prophet. He also told us to refer to the scholars if we don’t understand any part of it. It seems as if you have had a poor experience with your own clerics, and I agree that many people who are put in positions of responsibility in Muslim communities are not always highly qualified, but I am talking about referring to the senior scholars who do have the knowledge. Sadly there are not as many as we need, but they are there and they are very active and their voices can be heard.

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Originally posted by Medosa:
[B] In fact I wish that you are right that the majority of Muslims hold such moderate views...Not only I wish so but it would be woundrfull if it were true...

But it is not just by you saying or I am saying..

Take this forum as an example, even if it is a poor one... when you read through, you will get a very different flavour.

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Do you get the Idea that Muslims approve killing Innocent Non Muslims when reading through the board here? How so?

Second The Link I gave ya represent the majority of Muslim scholars who are respected by Most Muslims. What else you need? a petition signed by 1 billion Mulsims maybe? I can't really provide this! But a good proof is that if most Muslims were like Bin Laden then how come they are not all doing like him?

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I do not blame everything on Islam, not at all, and I wish of you after being so objective , not to recourse to this.

In fact if we take this forum as an example still, some christian conrtibuters do express extreme views too...and offensive remarks...etc...no I do not blame everything on Islam or Muslims.

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Great!

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There remains sadly still one fact that niether of us can ignore or wish away , althogh I for one would love to wish it away.

That fact is that the world today is in the grip of a huge terrorist threat..that threat cloacks itself with Islam (rightly in the perpetrators view wrongly in yours)...

You share the same faith....therefore you have a MUCH GREATER AND MORE IMPORTANT ROLE TO PLAY IN COMBATING THIS THREAT...than any one else.....

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Medosa,You will get me speechy now The problem is that you see things from one side and you define terrorism from this one side. Untill now the world doesn't agree about what is terrorism. You see that the kind of terrorism coming from some Muslims is the biggest threat to the world while the other side find the terrorism coming from some westrners like Bush and Sharon (who killed more civilians than all terrorists from between Muslims) as biggest threat to the world. My views go inbetween, I prefer to take the middle line. I believe both sides have the same responsibility to stop terrorism. Osama never had such a support like that untill Iraq Occupation, he was kicked from Saudi Arabia and even Sudan. Such sympathy he gained is due the anger and frustration Many Muslims feel due to the way US treats the Muslim world or the world in general, how The US ignore or even Veto any condemnation against Israel and yet use the UN law to condemn other countriea. By such a double standard the US made many enemies for itself not only within Muslims . You can't grow up seeing almost daily pictures and video on TV of Plaestinians children, women and old men being killed dialy by American weapons ..house demolisions and helicopter attacking civilians..etc and then the whole world watching and can't do anything because the US would use Veto supporting this kind of terrorism, You can't grow up within this and not get angry about it then things get worse when other muslims in other countries are treated carlesly . and when the situation withing Muslim countries also is encouraging for more anger (presene of dictators , poverty, intolerance etc) The more and more such feelings increase and blind the eyes of some to accept the concept of revenge.

I'm interested in treating the roots of terrorism and part of the solutuion is to bring people close to each other and let them exchange their views or let them see things fully and not half truths. People on both sides are mostly good, they both don't enjoy the suffering of innocents (except few bigots here and there) but they don't see things in the same way .

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Silence can sometimes be taken as approval

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Which goes both ways

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Originally posted by Medosa:

There remains sadly still one fact that niether of us can ignore or wish away , althogh I for one would love to wish it away.

That fact is that the world today is in the grip of a huge terrorist threat..that threat cloacks itself with Islam (rightly in the perpetrators view wrongly in yours)...

You share the same faith....therefore you have a MUCH GREATER AND MORE IMPORTANT ROLE TO PLAY IN COMBATING THIS THREAT...than any one else..... this should not be taken to mean any blame is placed upon you Muslims...no not at all...just an obligation and a resposibility to do all you can.

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This point you make Medosa is a very valid one and has been accepted by the British Muslim council this week. It may seem unjust to Muslims when they are the ones that have been the target of so many attrocities themselves but it is the name if Islam that the terrorist are using.

At the same time I very much accept your points Troubles that we need to change the way we look at terrorism.

Thanks for the debate on interpretation of the Koran, have to admit to being confused as to whether I have any chance of understanding it without the aid of scholars.
When I studies law I certainly needed assitance to understand it, this is a good analogy but I still can't get away from thinking then how are those who do not have acess to scholars supposed to understand it.

End Quote

Salama
I love Osama! Viva Osama.

I love and admire selfless human being. I adore Osama in and out.
God with you and with your people Osama. To victory in sha Allah.
Kafirs of all creeds will disappear into thin air..
Viva Osama

Originally posted by yazid904:
Suicide bombing in defense of one's country is halal.

Originally posted by 7aya:
i think from a religous perspective suicide bombings is 7aram. but let me put it this way, if some country comes and invades egypt i think i will be the first suicide bomber.

Fareed
Yes Melinda,
It was an Egyptain Leader, who destroyed the U.S.'s Biggest Skyscraper, aka, the Twin Towers (The World Trade Center).

Now go back to your safe white cubicle, and stick your finger up your ****, before another Egyptain destroys your little bratty ass.

And so on and on !!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally posted by Troubles101:

Medosa,You will get me speechy now The problem is that you see things from one side and you define terrorism from this one side. Untill now the world doesn't agree about what is terrorism. You see that the kind of terrorism coming from some Muslims is the biggest threat to the world while the other side find the terrorism coming from some westrners like Bush and Sharon (who killed more civilians than all terrorists from between Muslims) as biggest threat to the world. My views go inbetween, I prefer to take the middle line. I believe both sides have the same responsibility to stop terrorism. Osama never had such a support like that untill Iraq Occupation, he was kicked from Saudi Arabia and even Sudan. Such sympathy he gained is due the anger and frustration Many Muslims feel due to the way US treats the Muslim world or the world in general, how The US ignore or even Veto any condemnation against Israel and yet use the UN law to condemn other countriea. By such a double standard the US made many enemies for itself not only within Muslims . You can't grow up seeing almost daily pictures and video on TV of Plaestinians children, women and old men being killed dialy by American weapons ..house demolisions and helicopter attacking civilians..etc and then the whole world watching and can't do anything because the US would use Veto supporting this kind of terrorism, You can't grow up within this and not get angry about it then things get worse when other muslims in other countries are treated carlesly . and when the situation withing Muslim countries also is encouraging for more anger (presene of dictators , poverty, intolerance etc) The more and more such feelings increase and blind the eyes of some to accept the concept of revenge.

I'm interested in treating the roots of terrorism and part of the solutuion is to bring people close to each other and let them exchange their views or let them see things fully and not half truths. People on both sides are mostly good, they both don't enjoy the suffering of innocents (except few bigots here and there) but they don't see things in the same way .

[/B]

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I do not mind you getting all speachy on me

But please will you stop repeating that I see things from one side...It seems to be like a catch phrase with you, and never appropriate or correct.....

In fact if I was to be unkind I would say it applies more to you than me...

I think this thread has grown too long now with participation by a very limited number of contributers..

End of talk !!!!

ÎáÕ ÇáßáÇã

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Originally posted by 7aya:
how would you feel if there is no longer something called egypt? and people just refer to you as the "egyptians"

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Strictly speaking, I think there is no longer Egypt and it is not even called Egypt but Arab Republic of Egypt, to be precise, where "Arab" comes first.

I am certainly not supporting people losing their homes, but the reasons for the story of Israel vs Palestine seem to lie partially in that it happened too late in history or too recently. The rest of aggressions in the world have simply calmed down over the hundreds of years and the natives have been either more or less rooted out or then assimilated into the far larger numbers of invaders. In some cases of course they have also regained their right to govern their land.

It means you, 7aya, might actually be the descendant of "israeli" in Egypt.

It is one of these cases that have been repeated so many times throughout history but we seem unable to learn from these - that you cannot "establish" your will or idea over large numbers of people. If they don't buy it, and they rarely do all at once, you get a sleeping volcano for sure.

My country has been lucky in the sense that it has been on the way of many different aggressors who have effectively fought and weakened each other over the hundreds of years so that none has had enough time to settle down and assimilate. But the first who came killing and burning were the people who said they came to show us the God, unfortunately we remember too well (though we don't remember which nationality they were )

I really have nothing against you, or any other physical person here, in general. I just don't share all views, and I admit I may get slightly suspicious about persons who claim to be journalists and Egyptians, but do not know where Hurghada is...

About grief... in my culture people do not cry in public unless they need to show off. Tears are the easiest tool if one needs to manipulate for sympathy. Maybe then I need to understand there are other acceptable varieties in the world.

I appreciate your honesty in what you say if not always how you say it. I also find myself wondering if you are typical of women from your country and what is it in your way of life and upbringing that makes you so outspoken and with some very radical ( but interesting ideas. You seem to be the epitomy of the free independant woman even more so than perhaps we see in American women, so of course you are going to clash sometimes when you come up agains women from a much more consevative background.

I admire people and their own opinions though their thoughts they express have to be in an adequate and not insulting way to others.

I find Nevermind's statements plainly rude and not in the least way respecting.

Lastly the post by Soha was inviting any foreign people to koran lessons, anyone who is interested to know more about this religion.

Nevermind could have ask for details if she would have been in any way interested or she could have simply just ingnore it. But she had to started attacking this person just out of nowhere, insulting a religion million of people believe in - and we are not talking here about a cooking recipe. HOW TYPICAL.

By the way, women all over the world are unique in their own very way, a certain behaviour doesn't come with a nationality.

I am done. I wish everyone a great Sunday and if you have to work - take it easy. Thank you.

What words a person uses to describe others, is really quite revealing in that sense, especially when you bring her to the verge where she loses self-control (this is where the true self reveals itself which has until that point been controlled and thus hiding).

I'm saying "her" on purpose because I do not think I notice the same tendency among men on ES. They say foul words too etc, but I think with them it is more the fight of ideas? While among women it is exactly a case of persons trying to climb over one another. Maybe am unjust here.

Also, my total experience with Egyptian women, as little as there has been, shows that young educated egyptian women are the most unfriendly. Of course young women in and around their 20ies are probably the most unfriendly group in any country(?) because it is the age of competition and "making it" and becoming someone or achieving something. But they have generally been the least eager to help and I have got a rather clear feeling they do not do it because they think it would shake their image somehow, as if helping another being (esp. when she is foreigner) sets them lower somehow.

As I said it may be that this kind of self-consciousness is actually characteristic to a majority of young women and maybe even men, because somehow they have become to believe they are inferior somehow or on the verge of looking inferior so they really cannot afford any "service"

You notice the same thing among young women in this forum.

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Originally posted by Tigerlily:
I find Nevermind's statements plainly rude and not in the least way respecting.

Nevermind /.../ had to started attacking this person just out of nowhere

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Ohhh... here we go again, Tiger. Where is the "ATTACK" in my posts?? I am just expressing my opinions. Attack is when you punish the person if she does not obey (like you and 7aya are calling me names just because I do not agree with you). Being different is no attack in itself, attack is when you force others do something they do not want do and you back it up with punishment - e.g. you become mean to them.

A lot of these difficulties we face in the world now seem to come exactly of this overinterpretation and seeing "attacks" everywhere. The people who do not "see" attacks are not so prone to hit back, either (have you noticed?).

It's about being touchy-feely and having the illusion perfection is possible and that everyone are indeed as perfect as they claim (haha!) except you of course, so you need to hide your imperfections from them and when you are ignorant or wrong, with all your might. It is about relying on others for your self-regard and how you feel about yourself.

So, where did I attack or where did I attack a PERSON? I attack ignorance when i get really pissed off meaning I am forced to accept too large quantities within too short timespan (mot wise but why should i be a perfect being when noone is - if you have spots, allow me indulge in some, too!), and I attack the arrogance that is hidden in the belief that one book can be the answer to everything and once you've read it you can ignore the rest of human knowledge.... (??) My god people here are asking how night and day are produced in the world if there is no god so this makes me really curious about the muslim school system - what curriculum it is and what do children learn at all? Maybe as far as muslims are concerned the world still stands upon 3 elephants who stand upon 3 whales who stand don't remeber where.

We should really start this string about school system in Egypt, btw, because it is really an important issue and very practically useful knowledge for so many moms here, too.

But what I say has nothing to do with persons here because persons can choose to loose the ignorance and arrogance or other bad principles and then there is nothing to attack IN them any more.

I love to keep it plain. No fringes and sashes, and no speaking through flowers, no wasting time. It is how strong people communicate with each other. Weak people, yes, they need double quantities of sugar coating over every plain pill of truth, but can we afford to promote this kind of weakness??

BTW Tiger are you aware how your physical situation might have influence on your moods and attitudes and are you controlling yourself in this aspect? I have to admit I am absolutely horrified of becoming pregnant because what if i turn into a real monster??? Or do you sense a deficit of love in your life? because I think people who are really really loved.. how can they become mean? and even if there is deficit of love then you can still choose to be that person who maybe does not receive so much love but in any case has decided to give love. We need givers!

I have two questions for you: Now since we are all know that you are in a relationship with a Coptic Egyptian how do you handle together the religion issue? Is he free to pursue his believes or are you "converting" him yourself to a non-believer just like you are? I imagine it has to be such a struggle to come to terms because nothing is more worse than to tell a god-fearing human being that there is no god. Would be informative to see your point of you.

And do you think you stand above of everyone and everything because you are feel you are correct in your thoughts? F. e. you are saying there is no god in another topic. So if this is your statement than you have to prove it, back it up (not to me since I am atheist myself) and if you can't then at least have the decency to behave politely especially in such a sensitive issue. You hurt many people with you ignorant talk.

There is nothing wrong in critizising, questioning, asking things but in which manner is important. The world wouldn't be the same today if people didn't use their thinking, didn't invent things, didn't spoke out loud. But it must be for a reason, a valid reason ....... not only to seek attention to the own person.

And now I am promising I am done with this topic.

The issue with my bf and BTW all real, live muslim egyptians I've had the chance to meet is that they really do not try smear their belief over you. They are not religious fanatics, I have no met such. It is something we hardly speak about, because if you are a normal person then probably you'd try avoid topics that might hurt other peoples' feelings? Something that so many islamic people here do not consider, although we are in the middle of a snowball now where noone remembers any more who set it rolling.

If islam is so good then demonstrate it is good, show us the fantastic results in your countries, but stop smearing us with words that prove nothing.

I only had one conversation with a young muslim man by the poolside, he came from a relatively well-to-do family, possibly with good connections then, he named Egyptair, Citibank and British Petrol among companies where his family works, and he travels a lot due to the oil business being so international. Somehow the religion entered the conversation and now he seemed really proud of being a muslim and also expressed his hope that islam is going to "win" or something, I may be giving a wrong word here but in any case I got the understanding that for him it is an issue of competition and of gaining supremity. One should be concerned about helping others along, not dreaming anout gaining some supremity over them. There is not so much joy in supremity anyway, but there is a lot of responsibility.

So this insident made me slightly worried about the possible attitudes among the young muslims who are your future and also influence our common future, but then he is a young guy, thinking life is a competition is natural in that age.

In my country just as in yours Tiger, I believe, religion is a whole separate aspect that does not dictate any other aspects. It is separate from upbringing (school), it is separate from our laws and how we govern our state, it is a person's own intimate choice to look at the world and only influences his own behaviour and principles. So, if he otherwise is a good and nice person, it is easy to ignore his religion, it is a subject that you never take up because you consider it be his intimate choice that has nothing to do with you.

Egypt is of course different but I can only say I am not the one who is interested in bringing up the issue and I certainly do not mean to disturb his beliefs more than he decides to disturb mine. If i sense disrespect towards what I believe into, it certainly undermines my respect towards his beliefs, let's hope it will not go that far.

This board is different from real life in Egypt, Tiger, because there is more religious arrogance here and more propaganda forced onto participants. E.g. why are there so many people who require us read and know Koran?? Don't you think we are quite competent in choosing what to read, ourselves? If your behaviour impressed us we would grow naturally curious about where you get such wisdom from. But somehow, up till now, we are not very impressed and we don't want be like you. We don't want look down to other people or dictate their beliefs for them or punish them. We do not want be a pain for the world, a source of trouble and subject of social aid. We are well without you, and are only interesed in you as possible nice human beings who complete our common world and enrich it.

And no, I don't have to prove anything. They say there is god. I say there is none. Do they prove anything? Have you seen one?

And I did not start anything it is just a natural response to the religious propaganda here. When you push things over limit, don't be suprised they spring back on you. Trying to dictate another person's mind will always result in them taking up some own dictation. The alternative is resignation, cutting communication and going out ). I'll leave it for my last resort, OK?

My person is really not important, but my principles might be, I think they are quite humanistic and they are always targeted on what is good for YOU, Tiger, instead of targeting what is good for me, but that you do not understand. Good for me would be to keep my mouth and just praise everyone loudly here and gosh how popular I'd be.

YOU say "You hurt many people with you ignorant talk", my god do you think I am unhurtable? Do you think it makes me shine with pleasure to hear people here announce the type of things like e.g. that god creates our mornings for us and makes flowers grow... or that great respect is shown towards women by telling them go cover themselves up, from toes till eyebrows, or better still go hide out of sight altogether... So please watch your mouthes too and show some modesty in your beliefs.

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Originally posted by Penny:
nevermind this is something that seems to happen a lot on ES where one person seems to end up stalking another around the board. I really don't understand it.

I appreciate your honesty in what you say if not always how you say it. I also find myself wondering if you are typical of women from your country and what is it in your way of life and upbringing that makes you so outspoken and with some very radical ( but interesting ideas. You seem to be the epitomy of the free independant woman even more so than perhaps we see in American women, so of course you are going to clash sometimes when you come up agains women from a much more consevative background.

7aya you need to accept that women in other parts of the world are not living their lives in the same way you are but that does not make them any less of a woman or deserving of any less respect.

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Originally posted by RaniaMe:
We don't need your so openminded and tolerant opinion about everything. What do you know about Egypt, just tell me? How to share a hotel room with your boyfriend, knowing sex without getting married is the worst thing in Egypt?

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Originally posted by 7aya:
nevermind /.../ attacking the egyptian,arab, and muslim way of life.

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Be precise 7aya. I'm only attacking the negative aspects of said life, things that Egyptians themselves are equally dissatisfied with. I am equally intolerant to negative aspects in my own country, this is how you advance life - by rooting out the negative. Why do you find problem in that? and you never notice the positive (so typical!)

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1) her way of expressing her opinion is very rude and intolerant.

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Am just mirroring those to whom I respond, my friend. And you are welcome to develop interesting discussions out of my statements.

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2) she is constantly saying that she is the best and that everyone should be more like her (i swear she said that directly in one of her posts)

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To be effective, propaganda needs be clear and simple. And the simplest way of learning something is by copying. This is why I say: be like me! ) I really like my life so I believe I have a good recipe. It's freewilling, of course.

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let me tell you for a country that has been under foreign rule from 638 to 1952 we have kept our character

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No, Egypt did not have the kind of muslim character before, it is a new import.

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and you say why do i and tiger get angry with you when you "correct" us? (arrogance yet again!) who are you to correct us, who said that YOU are right and we are wrong

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And by the way it's "chacun son gout", not a chaucun son gout. That's what I call being arrogant you know, it would never come to my mind to correct anyone trying to talk in French.

I end up the debate too, so I will flee, as you say!

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Originally posted by 7aya:
when you asked people to be like you, you weren't refering to the lifestyle you were refering to your ideas and mentality.

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Because, dear 7aya, lifestyle IS NOT important. There are very many lifestyles in the world. But mentality IS important, e.g. not being interested in yourself and your supremacy but being interested about others, or not assessing someone for his lifestyle but how he behaves with other people. What I am trying to smear on you is that I am not so much interested about myself (i'm doing quite well mostly and require little effort for that) but am interested about others, and that is all the decisive difference between so many people.

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what makes you happy could be very boring to other people

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I'm happy when other people are happy and caring. For a self-obsessed person this could be incredibly boring of course.

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Lastly, what i want to tell you is do not enjoy attacking you.

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Then don't... Stop seeing reasons for attacks, they are in your perception only. You need to learn to accept criticism and/or opposition constructively and be thankful for it, because improvement starts from critical analysis and opposition is enriching and good for qualitative development.

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i guess we have different definitions

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We have very different definitions but as you see my definitions allow me peaceful coexistence with whomever, and development for the world, while yours just fan fires here.

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finally, if you really come on this site to have an intelligent debate then do not divert people from your purpose by insulting them. just say your opinions with facts and let the people do the same

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I have never insulted anyones' person, this is the 2879th time I'm telling this to you. It is YOU who are taking this to personal level. So I said my facts about Koran that I know is that it is a big fat outdated book. Because it is big? it is fat? and when was it updated last? Or is it small and new and thin of material?

Instead of simply presenting YOUR facts or knowledge to approve or disprove of that perception of mine, the girl who started the thread and you started shouting all over that I am a bad person.... The discussion was not about me at all, it was about Koran, so what importance do MY virtues have here? Is Koran big, fat and outdated or isn't it?? or anything else anyone needs to say about Koran because I still have not heard ANY reasons that would make me read it. Like I said: there are too many books in the world, and I have my own group of authorities, thank you, why should I change??

It is VERY illustrative of the attacking muslims' behaviour actually. You never supply facts or knowledge, one gets a feeling that you do not even have any (your belief is blind), but you simply start attacking the persons who bring up the subject...

So get OFF my person please, and get back to the subject (any subject) and try keep yourself involved with the SUBJECT and off persons. It is indeed getting boring... isn't it.

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Originally posted by nevermind:
I have never insulted anyones' person, this is the 2879th time I'm telling this to you. It is YOU who are taking this to personal level. So I said my facts about Koran that I know is that it is a big fat outdated book. Because it is big? it is fat? and when was it updated last? Or is it small and new and thin of material?

Instead of simply presenting YOUR facts or knowledge to approve or disprove of that perception of mine, the girl who started the thread and you started shouting all over that I am a bad person.... The discussion was not about me at all, it was about Koran, so what importance do MY virtues have here? Is Koran big, fat and outdated or isn't it?? or anything else anyone needs to say about Koran because I still have not heard ANY reasons that would make me read it. Like I said: there are too many books in the world, and I have my own group of authorities, thank you, why should I change??

It is VERY illustrative of the attacking muslims' behaviour actually. You never supply facts or knowledge, one gets a feeling that you do not even have any (your belief is blind), but you simply start attacking the persons who bring up the subject...

So get OFF my person please, and get back to the subject (any subject) and try keep yourself involved with the SUBJECT and off persons. It is indeed getting boring... isn't it.

(Thanks anyway for at least trying to answer but I think more analysis would be required from your side.)

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quote:

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Originally posted by 7aya:
well why would you care if the koran is updated or not? i mean you don't believe in it so why dont you just let it be.

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The correct answer is: I DON'T care. I will most HAPPILY let it be. I was trying to HELLLPPPPP the poor girl who obviously did not know how to PROPAGATE her Holy Book. Because the first thing you hear if you try make people do something is: WHY? WHY WOULD I?

And then you/she/whoever need answers and not getting defensive.

7. Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.)
THE MOST HONEST IS ALLAH

((11. And when it is said unto them: Make not mischief in the earth, they say: We are peacemakers only.

12. Are not they indeed the mischief makers? But they perceive not.

13. And when it is said unto them: Believe as the people believe, they say: Shall we believe as the foolish believe? Are not they indeed the foolish? But they know not.))

the most honest is ALLAH

quote:

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Originally posted by Morgan:
WE LEARN FROM QURAN EVERY DAY WHEN SOMEONE BLOW HIM SELF UP ...THANK YOU
THIS MARTYR THINGS SEEM'S TOO WORK?

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Organ, next time my fellow martyrs blow themselves up i will ask them to leave KAMASUTRA as a referring point. Then the whole world will strive to stop having dirty sex and the population of morons shall cease to exist. Is that Heaven or is that a Paradise 'earthly achieved'?

Interpretation 1: Have to remember to take an umbrella.
2: Gloomy again, I am depressed.
3: Damn car won't start again.
4: Excellent: my car will be washed for free!!!!!
5: Says who?
6: Damn republicans messing with the weather satellite again.
7: The terrorists must be planning global flooding.
8: God loves plants and nurtures them all.
9: No rain no gain.

quote:

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Originally posted by egyptourguide:
nevermind i thought you was meaning SORRY when you said it
but you and medosa i think this is the time to stop that and i still have my mind that if you could not show respect for our beliefs leave our country may one day you have people like you all the time show you disrespecting for you AND SAYING IT IS FREEDOM ME ALSOO I HAVE FREEDOM IN MY MIND AS YOU DO
in the name of ALLAH (
6. As for the disbelievers, whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not.

7. Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.)
THE MOST HONEST IS ALLAH

((11. And when it is said unto them: Make not mischief in the earth, they say: We are peacemakers only.

12. Are not they indeed the mischief makers? But they perceive not.

13. And when it is said unto them: Believe as the people believe, they say: Shall we believe as the foolish believe? Are not they indeed the foolish? But they know not.))

the most honest is ALLAH

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I said that I have finished talking, you know why ? Because this discussion became so sterile.... But I will just add this final comment..
***

Right let us go back to neverminds original remarks and analyse it sentence by sentence and find out whether it is disrespectful or not.
=====
she said:

"Why? The life is short, the survival takes its share, the competition for the rest of time is really fierce... "

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Well is there any thing here that would offend any of you ?

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next she said

"why would one spend time on a big fat book"

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Did that upset you? if it has you are wrong because...

Let us calmly take it apart..she is asking (wondering), why should some one want to read a fat book(i.e. large),it is a very common every day expression in English to say a fat book, not derogatory in any way, just simple expression of size.

If you read in this anymore it is YOUR LACK OF UNDERSTANDING NOT DISRESPECT ON HER PART.

================
Then she said

"which as far as we know is either outdated or then batter psychological, medical and political knowledge and advice is available in many other, more concise and more up-to-date books."

============

I am sure this is the nub of the matter,she is stating an OPENION that the book is outdated...Nothing wrong in that, is there ?

I can almost hear you saying yes there is. If that is so then..

IS IT NOT TRUE THAT ISLAM (and Muslims) CLAIM THAT THE QURAN HAS OUTDATED AND SUPERSEDED THE BIBLE ? ISN'T THAT OF THE VERY ESCENCE OF ISLAMIC MESSAGE ?

...so why is it OK for you but not for others ?.

=========

AS to her reference to modern social, medical, and psychological siences being better , THAT IS HER OPENION.

YOU may believe the Quran is the word of God, but she does not. YOU MUST ACCEPT AND RESPECT THAT.

YOU CANNOT FORCE HER TO LOOK AT IT WITH THE SAME REVERENCE YOU DO..

YOU MUST UNDERSTAND AND ACCEPT that to non-muslims Islamic text is just another philosophy... CAN YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?

This is not disrespect..it is just stating a fact.

There is nothing wrong in her saying that she considers other text better.

=====

Then she said:

"You muslims are all so uptight about what you know, no wonder then there is so much misunderstanding and no one understand ther might be any value."

==========

And that is EXACTLY what happened here,,, she is proved totally right....

Enough said.......

************

NO MORE WILL I SAY

As it will then BE DISRESPECTFUL !

To top it all, my senses are so numb from the week-end of fighting here that today when I needed to walk in a government office and deliver some papers (just because my beloved brother can't get his computer fixed with a small gadget that would allow him conveniently arrange any government business or documents from behind his home computer, because since we do not have anything to pray towards in this country here then we have nothing to do with our days and a lot of leftover energy goes into the low form of existence called work that helps us improve our physical and material life over here.)

Anyway so, when the lady behind the counter knitted her brows and started finding all kinds of faults in the document... you know first time in my life I felt like at home - I felt like in ES. And I just smiled at here, I could not help it. She had maybe hoped for some short effective fight because it was the end of the work day and she was obviously bored, so she was so shocked that she shut up in the middle of her sentence and continued reading the document in complete silence for some time, and then offered some remedies so I could still get the result that I needed from this document (that belonged to my brother anyway so I was in fact quite helpless). When I finally stood up and said Thank you her you are welcome sounded almost apologetic.

quote:

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Originally posted by Karah_Mia:
Medosa, are you Egyptian Christian? Just wondering.
As to the expression 'fat book': it may not carry derogatory meaning in the colloquial language, but it certainly does in connection with the name of any Emotionally Important Book, not only Qur'an.

The word "FAT" seems negative in any context involving humans, but that is just my humble opinion.

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That is none of your business...

What is the relevance of that...are you trying to "reach" for something ?

But to avoid any such "fishing", I did say before I have no religion....I am an Agnostic
if you know what that is...

I believe in the power of the mind...this means I believe in that which stands to intelligent reasoning, and reject that which the mind finds devoid of proof or rationality..

In other words I reject non questioning faith, specially that which asks its followers to accept without debate.

And if my conclusion is that I do not know..then simply I state that I do not know..I do not take refuge in any mumbojumbo.....

Does that satisfy your curiosity ?

FAT in this context, IS NOT a COLLOQUIAL expression, it is a correct linguistic usage, but in common and frequent use.

FAT:adj.plump,THICK,solid,oily,profitable,fertile,(Collins English Dictionary).

THERE IS NO REASON AT ALL to conclude that it carries any NEGATIVE meaning in connection with as you put it "emotionally important book"...why? ...and from where on earth did you get this notion?

As to the word fat carrying any conotations regarding "humans", that may be a concept among some , which is deplorable and only a recent trend...

IT is however totally irrelevant here

IN THE CONTEX UNDER DISCUSSION IT IS ONLY A DESCRIPTIVE TERM, equals THICK BOOK nothing more nothing less.

I would rather indulge in a discussion on an intellectual level supported with rational reasoning, not an emotional, irrational , or accusatory level

Medosa ( Agnostic , non Muslim, non Christian, non Jewish, and not an Atheist either , so that nobody asks again !)

quote:

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Originally posted by nevermind:
Medosa you dear soul thank you, thank you, thank you. In fact, all ES - THANK YOU! Egyptourguide - thank you! 7aya - thank you (btw great post about Maslow, have you visited folks? features an interest-provokingly minimalistic Ann-somebody)
ES is just a fantastic source of experience! My god, first time in my life I made it into HEADLINES!!! I'm feeling almost like an MTV starlet. My text has been critically analysed up to the last comma (feel like Hemingway) and they even found some sense in it...

To top it all, my senses are so numb from the week-end of fighting here that today when I needed to walk in a government office and deliver some papers (just because my beloved brother can't get his computer fixed with a small gadget that would allow him conveniently arrange any government business or documents from behind his home computer, because since we do not have anything to pray towards in this country here then we have nothing to do with our days and a lot of leftover energy goes into the low form of existence called work that helps us improve our physical and material life over here.)

Anyway so, when the lady behind the counter knitted her brows and started finding all kinds of faults in the document... you know first time in my life I felt like at home - I felt like in ES. And I just smiled at here, I could not help it. She had maybe hoped for some short effective fight because it was the end of the work day and she was obviously bored, so she was so shocked that she shut up in the middle of her sentence and continued reading the document in complete silence for some time, and then offered some remedies so I could still get the result that I needed from this document (that belonged to my brother anyway so I was in fact quite helpless). When I finally stood up and said Thank you her you are welcome sounded almost apologetic.

I'm really curious now to try my numbed nerves on more peevish people and see if the smiling trick works with them, too.
Can I blow kisses on everyone??? I'm sure habibi will understand. Muahhh!!

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Glad to see you were not affected by some of the rather irrational ill conceived comments here.

Some people here can try the patience of a saint ... :0)

Good thing you still smile

Pick No. 2. Real or Windows Media Player. Hear???

In the context of this thread your question, not my answer was rude.

As a direct question if I avoided it, as you suggest, you would have been the first to draw many conclusions, you and other like minded people here.

You were setting a trap, because damned if I were a damned if I were not !

Got angry because I saw through your little trap and it backfired are you?

================
Quote:

Bravo. Being Agnostic (is that Anus of an Agnus, Nostril and Sarcastic mixed together into a free thinking trend? ) End Quote

================
You speak of respect for religious beliefs and tolerance??

Are you aware that Agnosticism is a belief system too...if you are aware of that then no further comments are needed about your standards and the standard of your language.

If you were not aware, then enough said about your ignorance.

==========
Quote:
you should possess the tolerance to accept different opinions about the world we are living in. If someone considers FAT a negative description, so be it. If you don't, so be it as well. Don't be surprised people may be easily offended when it comes to religious beliefs.
End Quote
================

So if someone mis-understands what is said, I should not correct him , because that is life ?

Yes people can take offence when it comes to comments about their religious beliefs specially if they did not understand.so is it wrong to give the correct meaning?

===============
Quote:
It is just the way it is my dear Watson.

End Quote
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Cheap sarcasim....has no meaning
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Quote
You want to clap your earlobes every time Nevermind performs, knock yourself out. But that is also the matter of personal preference.

End Quote
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If I agree with you , I would say so..If I disagree with Nevermind, and I have, I say so too...

I do not know Nevermind from Adam...
So just drop this school girl immature, twisted logic and grow up.

==================
Quote:

Also, since when someone's HUMBLE opinion is in any way accusatory? It could be emotional, sure, but why not?
End Quote
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Many people use that expression without meaning a word of it......your response is far from humble dear !

=========
Quote

If our intellectual level of discussions here lays way below your expectations, please check if you are not behind the other side of the door.
End Quote
===========

Is that sarcasim again, or another little trap....of the same type

damned if I agree and damned if I disagree

=========

Good night dear...sleep well..

I love you as much as I love Nevermind

Remember I said

NO MORE WILL I SAY

As it will then BE DISRESPECTFUL !

quote:

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Originally posted by Mon_Savage:
Again Medosa and nevermind, the posy non of their bussiness at all and they are still puting their noses in what it doesn't relate to them, this post about teaching Holly Koran, so why r u here on this post, seriously those ppl have mental problem, something wrong with them. Always there are posts belong to some ppl and they still come and attack and if the post is talking about Koran, their replayes about eggplant.
Big Wonder !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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I too can trade insults...but they are cheap..

So you think we just should say yes moulana, three bags full sedna El-Sheikh?

Go back to your cave, and lick your Camel's arse..

Both of you are weird, what a perfect match you are.

Cheers

quote:

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Originally posted by kadijah2000:
Karah Mia do you not feel embarrassed when your husband speaks. He sounds like a bloody chap, good luck raising him.

Both of you are weird, what a perfect match you are.

Cheers

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Thanks for the good wishes. Your kind support is highly appreciated. We are indeed very happy together, which hurts so many people it is truly amazing to say the least. I will pray for all bitter people reading ES so they may find the light and happiness one day.