I am very compassionate about western ladies who so blindly fell in love with Egyptian knights, fly over the Ocean to Egypt, get married,,,, and do not even know their rights under the marriage contract in Islam.

So, he told u he wants to marry u, loool, well according to Islamic marriage:
1) Your husband is obligated to support u, even if u are wealtier than him.
2)You have no obligations to support your husband.
The marriage contract is not "service contract". This means a Muslim wife retains her maiden name upon marriage and its not obligated to perform housework. If she chooses not to cook, her husband is obligated to bring her prepeared food. The recognition is based on Quranic view of the marriage contract: it is NOT 4 service, but for human companionship. It is not entered into so that the husband can find somebody to cook and iron his clothes.

Did any of your Egyptian fiances ever mentioned "MAHR" at all????? LOL
This is an important security net 4 later years.
If he cant afford large "mahr" you can say "I dont want your money now, but on death or divorce, I want a million Dollars, or whatever price u want". (my g/friend got $150.000, this she will get if he divorce her, in cash, and I think this is nothing, I would not go beyond $350,000 if living in Egypt, if living in USA 1 Million Dollars would be minimum...u have this right and its nothing wrong.) Make sure u put this statement in the marriage contract!
The Quran gave the woman the right to any award they please. If he divorce u, he has to pay you this money! How will he pay? I dont know, thats should not be your concern,,,,,,,,Some countries are trying to put the cap, LOL, although its God's word, they are trying to lower amounts all the time.
You have right to negotiate with your groom AT THE TIME of the marriage. You are entitled to put conditions of the marriage contract, which he may accept or reject. Such as the right to remain in the country, he may force u to leave, oh if u dont have this condition, he can do it! Than he can say he is divorcing u 4 leaving, they call it ,,,,abandonment. If he accepts the condition, then it SHOULD BE recorded in the contract as a condition of the mariage. Once the condition becomes part of he contract, than the woman does not need the permission of the husband to excercise it. Permission of the husband is no longer relevant.
You should have the religious ceremony first, and than the civil one, because if u have the civil one first there are some complications resulting from that. You either do them BOTH at the same time, or you do Islamic one first.

I think most of Egyptain man are after Western girls because Western girls dont know and dont ask 4 this, they think only LOVE, and thats all, later on, ups, u have a lots of problems. You cant live only on love, what about some unplanned things that may happen, and why this is law if it not to serve you, its 4 your own benefits, so take it, and protect yourself, its his obligation, unless u waive it.

The whole point is how are u selecting your husband. Do not lower your standards. If he would marry Egyptain girl, he would not be able to SKIP anything just like that. Watch how Egyptain girls are doing it, do the same, dont be silly. Anyway, if he doesnt agree, this will tell u something, right? Actually to be honest with u, this is my own opinon, all right, but Egyptain man who never even mentions your rights and "mahr" to western woman, he is not good selection. Put yourself in his position, if u love a man and want to marry him, would u tell him about "mahr" or would u just skip that part, and "hope" he will never find out?
You protect yourself in advance girl, and if he divorce u, hehe, he would have to pay out "mahr", so if u say your mahr is $150.000, he will wonder should he do it or not. If u want to divorce him, u are entitled still to "mahr" IF he have done ANY harm to you during the marriage, it could be abuse, or anything that effects you in harmful way, your health maybe was ruined, etc..... basically anything that caused u harm in ANY way. So he would have to be extra good and extra nice to u, and never harm u, and in this case u dont get "mahr" if he divorce u.
I wrote about "mahr" already. That is what you get when he dies or if he divorce u, plus other things.....so if your fiance told u he wants to marry you, what u need to do, you tell him straight up, all right, and dont say, oh I dont want anything, no, especially in front od someone, he may say later you said u dont want it....Mention also other things, whatever u are entitled by law, take everything.
Dont just go and get married. NO! The best thing would be to find a lawyer, you can maybe find one in your country, do it with lawyer. Lawyer will tell u excatly, what u can put as "condition" to mariage contract. I belive this is one of the best tests 4 all western women to see what are TRUE intentions of their fiances.

Anyway, if he divorce u, if u do the right things with marriage contract, he has very little power legally. I hope I answered your questions. And yes, they can easily take advantage of western girls, easilyyyyyy.
I would also suggest you to take a girl friend or family member with u, to accompany you, someone whom u trust, I would neverrrrrr go alone to foreign country where I dont speak Arabic and sign anything. Never. I would have a lawyer and interpreter without question. You have to know what are u going into be4 u sign anything.

You said that he mentioned that he would have to pay around 15,000 LE to get married to an Egyptian girl, unless I'm mistaken, that's not the same as the 'mahr' that Miss Sara is talking about. I think the 15k is more like a dowry or 'bride price' paid to the parents, whether the marriage is successful or not.

That price can vary, my friend Achmed paid around 3,000LE - but his wife's father had passed away, and there was some agreement that Achmed would help care for the wife's family. Another guy at my company who's an engineer is not yet married and he said that he is trying to save 20,000LE 'for her father' and 7,000 to fix his flat. They are going for a 'paper marriage' until he can save enough to pay the father. Anyway, I've got a bit away from the point here...

I think the 'mahr' Miss Sara is talking about is a penalty for divorce, negotiated into the wedding contract. Perhaps someone more knowledgeble can enlighten us. Is that part of 'sharia?'

dolphin, find out as much as u can, the more u know, the better. I found out some answers from a Muslim Woman, she is a lawyer and also a proffesor of religion in prestigious University. She speaks Arabic and originate from Arab World, but living and working abroad. Her field is specifically Islamic marriage contracts and divorces. You see u can ask someone like this to REFFER you to specific person in Egypt or whatever, as they know each other and help u a lot. The laws differ from country to country, although they should not because Islam is Islam, but it does, I dont know why, probably because of different interpretations. I would not get infformation from Imam, he is imam not a lawyer, you get to find educated person who is very knowledgable in LEGAL field. Also, look what dhbolton said about his Egyptian friends, this may give u more insights what is really happening and how.

dhbolton, I agree with u, if anyone experienced or know something more, I am always interested to hear. I think it is so important for western ladies to find out their rights.

In Islam there is a form of marriage in which the woman retains for herself, in the marriage contract, the right to divorce her husband.It's called "keeping the ’ismah in her hand."This language, “keeping the ’ismah,” has two different meanings in the Muslim world.In some countries (Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, etc.) it means the woman may divorce at will.In other countries it could mean that the husband loses the right to divorce and only the woman can divorce, which is an extreme result.And there are certain jurisdictions which will allow the woman to keep the ’ismah in her hand, but she could lose it very easily, so you have to learn all these jurisdictional distinctions.

In one case, a woman had written in her marriage contract that the ’ismah was in her own hand, so that she could divorce at will.This meant that, when she wanted to divorce, she would simply tell her husband "I divorce you" and then goes to an imam to record the divorce, and she would be done.The husband’s input/consent is not required for this process.This form of divorce is very different from khul`, which does not involve ’ismah, but involves giving up the woman’s mahr and, some argue, obtaining the consent of the husband.

In the khul` form of divorce, the wife tells the husband "I want to leave you; take your mahr and go."Traditionally this has been interpreted to mean that the wife must first get the husband's consent to khul`, which is not really in the prophetic tradition.In that tradition, the Prophet said to a woman who had received a garden as her mahr, "Are you willing to return the garden?"She said: “yes,” and they were pronounced divorced.Yet many Muslim countries require the consent of the husband, and that has led to husbands blackmailing their rich wives.In some cases, the husband demanded not only the return of his mahr, but also an additional bonus of hundreds of thousands of dollars.For this reason, women who cannot obtain khul` for lack of spousal consent, end up asking for judicial divorce.So, what kind of a right is this khul`?It is almost useless!

That is why in the 1960s a court in Pakistan revisited the issue and concluded from the Qur’an and the prophetic tradition that the consent of the husband is necessary in the case of khul`.Under this view, you have a khul`when the woman says "Here's your mahr and goodbye."Nobody picked up on this Pakistani opinion although it was excellent jurisprudentially.But, in January of this year, al-Azhar in cooperation with the Egyptian government changed the law of khul` so that the consent of the husband was no longer required.Some journalists protested that the change spelled the end of Islamic law in Egypt; but the change in the law was passed and now Egypt follows the prophetic tradition of granting khul`without the consent of the husband.Although it is too early to say, there are other countries getting ready to follow suite.

And ultimately why should a man tell you about it, it is for the individual concerened to find out there rights.

LOL, I am sure that Egyptian man knows much more about islamic laws in regards of marriage as well about "Mahr", than Western lady. You think that during his life, he never heard any stories, from mother, father, cousins, and relatives how they got married, and from friends that are getting married right now, and even in the mosques people talk about this, oh, come on, this is not excuse.

The point is, they rarely tell to their western fiances, even what they know. I am sure the situation is quite different with Egyptian fiances.

LOVE? Well, if the western women did not prove their love by flying across the ocean, getting married in many cases,,,,without getting even decent diamond engagment ring and decent wedding party, and many of them are paying hundreds of Dollars for the phone, travel, hotels, vacations etc, than, if this is not love, what LOVE is?

Cant Egyptain man at leasttttt show some respect and secure his wife and future children in the case he dies or gets divorce? Love is not just "sweet talk".

I'll have to talk to Achmed later today and get some more details, but I distinctly remember him saying that many people had to pay 10,000LE or more, but her mother wanted gold and agreed to 3,000LE worth of gold. He also mentioned the situation that newcomer described - high payments keeping people from being married. He was unable to marry until he was 31 because he had to save for the payment.

He said that many times the cost was 150,000LE or more. I don't know if that was an exaggeration, but seems to be a staggering amount of money to me. I know that if it were asked of me, I would have serious doubts about my engaged's intentions.

I dont know if u missunderstood my posting.
I know whats "mahr".

My posting was written for the purpose of "informing" other western girls about their possible rights in islamic marriage, legally. I stated that clearly.

Its nothing to do with my current personal relationship. I surely know what I am doing, trust me.

I have never said that D Advocate is wrong. But I have never heard that teaching a bride Quran IS security net for wife and children.
I really never heard of it.

If u have some new information about marriage laws, u are welcome.

Well, if u decide to marry Egyptian girl, you will be expected to do the same, probably even more because u are American, they will think u are overloaded with money, and yes, u will attract many Egyptian girls 4 that very reason!

If u find out something more from your Egyptian friends, please post it, we would like to know. Thanks.

So, u stated minimum, however the Quran gave the women the right to any amount of "mahr" they please. It is up to bride to pick amount, not up to groom, and even minimum amount is her choice, not really his.

cairowannabee, thanks, yes I would be interested if dunes has some additional information in regards of rights 4 women in islamic marriage etc.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by D Advocate:
[B]You have to bear in mind that the minimum legal amount for mahr is 25 piasters which is a quarter of an Egyptian poound. Not every bride gets hundreds of thousands of pounds as mahr. In fact, too few do.

Like I said if my future wife came to me and wanted to discuss her rights in terms of mahr I could tell her what it is but I could not tell her how, why, when it should or could be paid or in what circumstances it could we withdrawn. But thanks for this posting it has clued me up a little bit. And in Pakistani culture the mahr is discussed by parents on behalf of there daughter so agin the groom will have very little input into the discussion other than agree the amount.

The other issue raised was whether the teaching of the Quran can be considered Mahr.
There is a Hadith (can give chain of narration and source if you want) in which a wmen came to the Prophet(PBUH) and said i come to you granting myself to you. The Prophet(PBUH) after Glancing at her lowered his head and remained silent. A man who was in the gathering stood up and said marry her to me if you have no need of her. The prophet asked is there anything with you that you can give s dower and the man said no so the Prohet(PBUH) told the man to go and get something even if it was an iron ring, the man came back with nothing, he offered to give the women half of his lower garments which the Prophet said was not practical. So the Prophet(PBUH) asked the man if he knew any of the surah and the man said yes and tils of the ones he knew by heart so the prophet(PBUH)said go have her for what you know of the Quran.

It if from this Hadith that the idea of the teaching of the quran can be offered as mahr.
This is considered acceptable by most jurists includind Imam Shafi, but is disagreed by Imam Abu Hanifa who says that this was a special case in view of the mans poverty and there fore is not a general case or to be be considered the norm. The idea behind teaching of the Quran as mahr is one along the lines of that if a women wanted to learn to read the Quran then she may have to pay to be taught lets say it cost 5000LE from start to finish then if the man agrees to teach the Quran to this wife then he has offered her something worth 5000LE.

Islam is actually very simple when it comes to marriage. You however must be a believer to accept the simplicity of it all. Muslim couples who wed do whatever they can to facilitate their own marriage. A muslim marriage contract is meant to bring two people together and balance as well. If a young man wants to marry a girl and she is willing and her “walee il amr” (legal custodian) agrees to the young man the contract will be simple.
You give her mahr whatever it maybe and you also sign in the contract in the event of abandonment/divorce a sum that is to be paid to the bride. This sum is only payable if the man divorces the wife. Now if they have children the situation is a little different, he must
Provide for her and the children until they reach a certain age or until she re-marries. If the wife was to ask for khula’ divorce she would have to give the husband an amount (money, property, mahr, etc) in order for him to give her the divorce. If it is mubarat divorce (mutual) then the husband may ask the wife to return the mahr and nothing more than that.

You must understand this is how it is done the Islamic way. People who divorce this way are believers and fear Allah wrath in life and afterlife so they do it by the book. However in countries like Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Tunisia, Malaysia, Turkey and other secular regimes divorce is not done by the book.

I remember studying a marriage contract from an Arab couple and the bride explicitly asked for “free time” several days a week and with a set amount of hours for her to be with her female friends outside the home. Her request was included in the marriage contract.

Some women even ask/add that if a husband were to take a second wife, they request he do so as he wish but the age difference between her and his new wife must not exceed certain number of years.

The going rate for mahr is well known in the communities that the two people wed. Yes some pay exorbitant amount of money but this is really the case when the bride is not really interested in husband because of whatever reason and he is very wealthy and or has other wives.

Dunes

Come on people, you see some of those old guys with gorgeous girls 30 years younger than them. A marriage like that is expensive. But in the end it works, the girl and her family recieve financial security the husband has his supply of Viagra so all is well right?

I personally think it's a recipe for adultry.

I’m sorry if I sound pessimistic. This isn’t Europe nor the States. This is Egypt and it’s hard to find justice if you are a woman or child or under privileged person. Islam is great
If people adhered to it, it’s not that way though. Miss Sarajevo Islamic marriages are only
Protected when you know who you are marrying, the son of so and so, the daughter of a known family. You can’t expect to hold an Egyptian man responsible for his obligation when his own family frowns upon your mere presence. Who are we kidding? We know
How western women are regarded in the Islamic world and you expect them to ask for
mahr. Mahr should be the least of their concerns.

Dunes

I made this posting to make western ladies aware of laws, and eventually I knew that many of them would think and ask themselves why they are NOT treated with the same respect as Egyptian fiances.

I picked specifically this subject so they can see what "would u marry me" looks like in Egyptian world between Egyptian man and Egyptian girl, so western ladies can draw conclusions and "realize" the things they have never thought be4. In this quote of yours, you basically revealed THE MAIN POINT that I was intending to get to.

I am sure that some western lady who come across this postings will "think" again.

I also knew by posting about "conditions" to marriage contract and "mahr", I knew that most of Egyptian man WOULD not agree, and that was my goal, to show western lady, what WOMAN in islamic marriage is entitled to,,,,,but YET look what western lady is getting out of it.

If western woman convert to Islam, and decide to marry Egyptain man, all her wrong doings, including not being virgin, will be erased, according to Islam, right? YET, u see, the reality shows, western woman is not treated with the same respect when iT comes to engagement, wedding parties, mahr, and basically everything else.

Finally if Egyptain man is willing to show the same respect to western lady AS IF she is Egyptian, I guess he is good one, everything else,,,,,,,,,I would say, its not love, but "convinience".

quote:

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Originally posted by dunes:
Just like miss sarajevo first stated you should know what you are getting yourself into before you leave your life behind for an Egyptian chap. Then again though if you think about it most of the marriages these days between foreign women and Egyptian men is simply for convenience. Look at the amount of respect and detail an Egyptian male would give his Egyptian bride. Now if he were to wed a foreign gal it would most definitely be low key a hush-hush type of thing.
[This message has been edited by dunes (edited 28 July 2002).]

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niledoc, thanks again 4 your information about "gold".

Anyone else has some stories about HOW Egyptian man works hard for Egyptian fiance, and does he work AS HARD in order to marry western fiance.......we would like to know.

THANKS!

quote:

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Originally posted by dhbolton:
[the parents, whether the marriage is successful or not.

...

I think the 'mahr' Miss Sara is talking about is a penalty for divorce, negotiated into the wedding contract. Perhaps someone more knowledgeble can enlighten us. Is that part of 'sharia?'

Dan[/B]

---

Yes it is, and it called muakhar or muakhir. Phobhet Muhammad PBUH has said, that the best of the girl soemone can marry is the one who ask for the smallest possible mahr(something you give up front the marriage). Muakhar is the penalty incase of diforce, or Death. In egypt, some decent family will ask for 1 pound mahar and very little muakhar(some even asked for a qur an instead--for many reason). And outside mahr and muakhar, there is something called shabka..A gift from the groom to the bride. And since its a gift its up to the men(normally its gold or diamond/other jewelry) but some having a custom to go out together accompanied with both family to chooce the gift.In egypt to propose to a girl, a man is asked(in most cases) to have his own flat and a job. Sometimes, if the girl or her family asked for a big mahr, then actually they are entitled to furnish the flat(partially)and the husband will sign all items belongs to the wife at the beginning of the marriage(like inventory) and incase of a divorce, the wive will move out with her furniture. In Islam, if you diforce you didnt got a waris(part) of the wealth, except its owned by the wife. In case of death...islam ruled that the wife(s)will receive 1/4 of total incase no children exist or 1/8 if there is children. So, there is always a chance you ll have to walk out on the street..cause you ll have to divide the house, f.e.
Back to the topic, in case of there is only a small mahr..then the wife will no need to bring any furniture.All I am saying is general..sometimes there is privat arrangements.

"The girl is the best if she asks 4 small mahr be4 marriage"....
You guys want everything for free, I swear.

Listen, if a man is not capable of offering decent "mahr", ring and wedding party and all other things that are necessary for marriage, he is NOT provider. If he cant do this, what he can do? He should not marry.
Simple as that! He cant do it. His duty is to provide, her choice is to ask 4 mahr and all what she wants. Thats it. It is HER CHOICE, not his choice.

Why would a girl marry a guy who cant be a "real man". He is not capable of being a husband. He is not worth of marrying at all.

The best husband is the one who doesnt even wait until girl asks 4 it, but he himself knows what are his responsibilities and does what he is "as husband" supposed to do without waitting 4 a girl to mention.

I do understand the men who are wishing to get married, sure, they like reasonable requests, right, something that he can afford, BUT, "mahr" is security net in the case of some unplanned situations, divorce or death, how could he not think about it, if he cares about his wife? If he cant afford, and lets see he is 30, so what he was doing all those years?

Thank u 4 sharing you story, very good, congratulations for your "happy" engagement.
I am compassionate about orphans.

Would u mind if I ask u a few questions please?

How are orphans treated in Egypt in regards of getting married? Are they "wanted" or "not wanted" by Egyptians?

Are orphans educated? Is it same 4 orphan boys as well as orphan girls?
Who are oprhans anyway, are those only the kids of parents who died, or abandoned children as well? Who could abandon child in Egypt? Why?

Thank you 4 sharing your story. If the person doesnt experience pain, he/she can hardly feel compassion towards others, so I believe your fiance is quite "unique" man. I am sure he sees the life much deeper than avarage people, 4 the fact that he suffered as a child. I suffered myself in the war in Bosnia. When you suffer, you are the closest to the God, thats actually where u feel His presence the most.
I would not let any event to interfear in your life decisions. I think people are very prejudiced and "judge" quickly. But not all people are same, even within 1 religion.
Religion should unite the people, not seperate them. Thats what I like about Islam. I am born Muslim but I am Europian, so I can relate to both sides. Islam unite the Muslims all over the world no matter what nationality u are.
Its really impressive.
But in the same time, there are so nice and good hearted people who are not Islamic at all. They are as good as any Muslim.

I would like to talk about certain things in relation with all kind of "sufferings" in private. I am also interested in helping orphan children in Egypt.

Miss S, this is so beautiful...

I read some time ago that Queen Rania of Jordan, not yet a queen, took the then King of Jordan to an orphanage. (She works to help orphans a lot). He was so touched by these children and their suffering that he gave one of his palaces to the cause for them to be housed in.

I wish you the best of luck in that line.