The last few days have made me proud of them, they want freedom and they know it's not something that can be handed to them, they're gonna have to fight and fight dirty.
The attacks on the US supply lines shows that they're organized.
The kidnappings make clear that any and all foreigners are not safe, all those mercenaries hired by Corporations to protect them while they pillage the country’s wealth are now themselves target.
posted
Homesick, I agree that everyone should probably just pull out of Iraq and hand back the keys to them, but I want to know your and other peoples opinion about what would happen if that did happen. What would they do? What kind of government would they end up with? How would they rebuild what's been destroyed? I'm not saying they can't, I'm just looking for ideas. I mean, no one is going to release Sadam, so he's not going back, and a lot of damage has been done to the infrastructure. Who do you think would/could go into power there and lead them into a new life? And who is going to help build the infrastructure? Or maybe you feel they don't need help with that. I'm just wondering.
quote:Originally posted by homesick2: I would wanna be Iraqi.
The last few days have made me proud of them, they want freedom and they know it's not something that can be handed to them, they're gonna have to fight and fight dirty.
The attacks on the US supply lines shows that they're organized.
The kidnappings make clear that any and all foreigners are not safe, all those mercenaries hired by Corporations to protect them while they pillage the country’s wealth are now themselves target.
posted
I think there is nobody who is judging right what the USA did in Irak. But on the other hand: why they do not make any differences? For me this is a matter of knowledge. There were already Engineers in the country who helped them to rebuild their Electricity system which was originally build 50 years ago i.e. by German Companies. There were already social organisation who were trying to help in medical things as well as in educational matters etc. There were already engineers in the country who were trying to find out together with the Iraqi people how a better infrastructure can be rebuild. Why are they murdering the people who are trying to help? If I want to do something for my country, why does it always have to be by fighting and war? Did nobody remember Ghandi? Or do you remember the inner German revolution some years ago? No Fight, no blood, no war. What is the priority of the Iraqi people - to get the Americans out or to rebuild their own country? Is it more important to fight and get the foreign people out of their country or more important to help their own people, to get hospitals for the children, schools, food and rebuild the economy? For me personally, what happens in Iraq is just the reaction of people who never learned to think!
Posts: 306 | From: Frankfurt, Germany | Registered: Apr 2004
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Jutta wrote:For me personally, what happens in Iraq is just the reaction of people who never learned to think!
I disagree. It's the reaction of people who were ruled by one dictator, and now are being ruled by another dictator: The US, with its policy of "Do it our way or else" and btw I am an Amercian who is thorougly disgusted and appalled with our double standard politics and foreign policy.
Laura
Posts: 3291 | From: I DO believe in Karma! | Registered: Apr 2002
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Debbie, I can give you an example: LEBANON.
The Lebanese rebuilt Lebanon, after 20 years of war costing (so far) 30 Billion Dollars ~ borrowings and donations from extremely wealthy Lebanese business people from all over the world, and other sources like from countries that did not play any role in Israel's invasive policy towards Lebanon and the Arabs, such as Japan. But the states that played the greatest role such as the United States, never gave an indication that they are seriously ready to participate in financing the south Lebanon reconstruction projects.
I wonder why?
quote:Originally posted by Debbie: Homesick, I agree that everyone should probably just pull out of Iraq and hand back the keys to them, but I want to know your and other peoples opinion about what would happen if that did happen. What would they do? What kind of government would they end up with? How would they rebuild what's been destroyed? I'm not saying they can't, I'm just looking for ideas. I mean, no one is going to release Sadam, so he's not going back, and a lot of damage has been done to the infrastructure. Who do you think would/could go into power there and lead them into a new life? And who is going to help build the infrastructure? Or maybe you feel they don't need help with that. I'm just wondering.
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 14 April 2004).]
posted
It is hard for people to understand what it means to be colonialized.
quote:Originally posted by Jutta3: I think there is nobody who is judging right what the USA did in Irak. But on the other hand: why they do not make any differences? For me this is a matter of knowledge. There were already Engineers in the country who helped them to rebuild their Electricity system which was originally build 50 years ago i.e. by German Companies. There were already social organisation who were trying to help in medical things as well as in educational matters etc. There were already engineers in the country who were trying to find out together with the Iraqi people how a better infrastructure can be rebuild. Why are they murdering the people who are trying to help? If I want to do something for my country, why does it always have to be by fighting and war? Did nobody remember Ghandi? Or do you remember the inner German revolution some years ago? No Fight, no blood, no war. What is the priority of the Iraqi people - to get the Americans out or to rebuild their own country? Is it more important to fight and get the foreign people out of their country or more important to help their own people, to get hospitals for the children, schools, food and rebuild the economy? For me personally, what happens in Iraq is just the reaction of people who never learned to think!
posted
Monica, the US tried to do the same thing in Germany after second world war. And every older person you ask here in Germany will tell you, that this time was even harder than the time under Hitler and during the war. And nobody wanted to be colonialized. But in fact, when all countries started their help to rebuild the country, when they started to bring medical help into the country, when the "CARE"-packages started, then people were thankful for that, because they learned, that they can only rebuild their country by theirselves, when the basics like Electricity, Water, Hospitals etc. are there. So we kicked the US out of our country a different way. After ages of accepting help, we proved, that Germany is able to rule itself.
Posts: 306 | From: Frankfurt, Germany | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Laura: I remember it vividly, and my clothing hasn't changed much since "Here come the Redcoats..Here come the Redcoats" haha
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 14 April 2004).]
posted
Jutta, habebty....ya okhchty ~ nice balady way for 'sister'~ can't compare Germans to Arabs...different mentality different culture...different ways of expressing emotions... Arabs are very emotional ...and that is not always positive!
quote:Originally posted by Jutta3: Monica, the US tried to do the same thing in Germany after second world war. And every older person you ask here in Germany will tell you, that this time was even harder than the time under Hitler and during the war. And nobody wanted to be colonialized. But in fact, when all countries started their help to rebuild the country, when they started to bring medical help into the country, when the "CARE"-packages started, then people were thankful for that, because they learned, that they can only rebuild their country by theirselves, when the basics like Electricity, Water, Hospitals etc. are there. So we kicked the US out of our country a different way. After ages of accepting help, we proved, that Germany is able to rule itself.
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 14 April 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by Monica: Jutta, habebty....can't compare Germans to Arabs...different mentality different culture...different ways of expressing emotions... Arabs are very emotional ...and that is not always positive!
Thanks Monica to laugh at me ....... I know that you can not compare it. But I still can not image why people do not start to think about the primary necessaries for their families. I always thought mainly the Arabs have the intention to look first at their families and that the family has everything they need....
posted
Germany is still crawling with American troops and dotted with American Military installations, as Japan is. Take a visit to these areas surrounding the bases and relive what colonization is like. The American soldiers in these parts commonly violate the rights of the local citizens. Look to the multiple recent cases of 12 to 15 year old girls getting raped by soldiers. Japan and Germany both want US military forces out of their countries, but the AXIS memory is still too fresh in some peoples minds.
Posts: 238 | Registered: Jan 2004
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That is very interesting info you're bringing here, Undead. Thanks.
Catch you all, later!
quote:Originally posted by Undead: Germany is still crawling with American troops and dotted with American Military installations, as Japan is. Take a visit to these areas surrounding the bases and relive what colonization is like. The American soldiers in these parts commonly violate the rights of the local citizens. Look to the multiple recent cases of 12 to 15 year old girls getting raped by soldiers. Japan and Germany both want US military forces out of their countries, but the AXIS memory is still too fresh in some peoples minds.
quote:Originally posted by Undead: Germany is still crawling with American troops and dotted with American Military installations, as Japan is. Take a visit to these areas surrounding the bases and relive what colonization is like. The American soldiers in these parts commonly violate the rights of the local citizens. Look to the multiple recent cases of 12 to 15 year old girls getting raped by soldiers. Japan and Germany both want US military forces out of their countries, but the AXIS memory is still too fresh in some peoples minds.
Undead, you are right, but we learnt to live and to get along with it. We also had so many advantages by it. And we also never forget this. And btw we have a quite higher rate on german national "rapers" than a american national.
posted
It is irrelevant that Germans also perpetrate the crimes, the point is that an occupying force is violating the rights of the local citizens. If Egyptians rape Egyptians it is an issue of domestic society, if some people from another country come with guns, tanks, and planes and then rape 12 year old girls it is a different matter all together.
Okay, you may have learnt to live with it and move on, that doesn't mean that the families of Germans and Japanese that are getting the shortest straw (worse end of the deal) share your opinion. Germany and Japan are constantly condemned for their actions in wars that took place over 50 years ago, and because of this they accept the "benefits" of US occupation. I am sure that being a German you have heard that you should feel guilty and ashamed for the acts of your forefathers. Seriously, why should you allow the US troops on your ground? I guarantee you if German troops were in the US raping women it would be an outrage and people would be crying "NAZI AGGRESSORS!" even though the Nazi regime is long gone. This is the precise reason that the people and the politicians allow US troops to occupy Germany. They fear being associated with the Nazi regime that fell decades ago. "We must never allow those crazy Germans to have a military capable of offense again! Look at what those racists do!" Well the US also has a racist policy, they just aren't rounding up Jews to kill them. During WW2 the Germans collected Jews to kill them, and the rest of Europe SENT Jews to Germany, Austria, Poland, etc. to be killed. The Russians were merrily murdering Jews and invading state after state. The US dropped atomic bombs on civilian locations killing over 300,000 civilians in one day, not to mention the following deaths due to nuclear fallout. But, for some reason it is the Germans and Japanese that are the savage aggressors that need to be controlled, while the US is free to set up military installations world wide. I question the critical thinking of anyone that accepts the "we receive benefits and we will learn to accept it" line. Get the US troops out of Germany, Japan, Iraq, and even Hawaii
posted
Sorry Undead, but I dont make a difference between "rapers" or "murders" or whatever crime it is. We are all just human beings. No matter where we come from. It is the worst thing to do and it should not matter in judging if you are this or another nationality.
With Germany you are absolutely right. Here children are still taught to feel guilty. But when I started to inform myself about Israelic politics, I stopped feeling guilty long ago. Which not mean, that I feel good about it. For me it is just part of the history of my own country. Not less, not more. But with everything in my life, there are situations where you have to consider where your priorities are. And regarding the US-Troops: there are definitely other quite more important things than to try to get them out of the country. Meanwhile many many small cities would be loosing a lot of money if the Americans go home. Lots of Germans are working in their facilities an unemployment rate is high in Germany. Many shops will have to close if the troops will not go there any more for shopping. Many binational families will have to suffer from that. Every medal have it's two sides. And in the end. We have a military cooperation: the NATO. So of course we have to accept something. This is just history: Countries who were cooperating in any way had always to accept one or another thing. You can not have just only advantages of some situations in life.
posted
homesick and others I know what it looks like to you, what your leaders and your people tell you. Media is biased and does not tell the whole story no matter what part of the world you are in. The United States OF America (yes I am American) did not come in and take anything away from the people of Iraq. IF they would stop being so ignorant and biligerant at this point... stop fighting eachother long enough to see who is the real theif SADAM HUSSEIN and his dead DEAD sons... they stole the freedom, money and precious lives from the Iraquis... The USA, I have a brother who just came back from there... hated being there, hated being seen as someone who was there to take something instead of what his mission was as it was given to him- to free the Iraqi people from Sadam and his sons to give the country back democracy and freedoms the people have been deprived of for so long. My brother brought nothing back with him except joy that he is home and able to finally see his new wife (that he had to leave after only 1 day of marriage) and his new born son conceived the marriage night. People that are fighting over there are exactly that...people... our troops honestly beleive that they are going to help rebuild what was destroyed in war by them and AND SADAM and the rouge fighters... they want to help people get water, power and electricity and oil so they can use their vehicles again... our soldiers do not know of a "BUSH alterior motive" and would not be a part of that... that is what the corporate people may be doing... but not the soldiers... there are soldiers that are wired in to the news casts at times in tears because they want the people so much to see that they want to help them rebuild their country... our soldiers want to be there less than the Iraqi fighters want them there... but we are not "occupying" Iraq... our mission as it is given to our men and women, sisters and brothers, mothers and fathers, aunts and uncles in uniform is to rebuild and help a country that has been living in fear and retaliation for too many years and it has to stop. Remember when you are out killing the US people and taking them hostage that they are someones child, someone mom, someones dad, someones family and they are loved... they maybe a great person and they have a job to do.. do you know that 90% of the troops there have normal lives here and are RESERVE troops...they go play on base every other weekend and two weeks every year... with their unit... but they work in stores, hospitals, dry cleaners and so on normal times... my brother did not join because he wanted to kill people... he joined because it has $50,000 in a GI bill that goes toward any kind of education he wants... it gives him money toward a home for him and my sister and he wanted experience because he wants to become a police officer... he had no idea he would be going to war and not home for almost 2 1/2 years... so remember that when you speak horribly about the people who think they are fighing for a good cause...to save lives in Iraq and help the children get medical care and education this by the way is what the President said last night in a Speech he gave is what the future agenda of our troops in Iraq is...to help them settle into a life with out SADAM and he is trying hard to get the UN to help the US and the other countries to make Iraq a happy and safe place to start a business, raise a family, get an education and health care will be for all... this is what he stated to the people as his goal now with Iraq... it is some of the people who are so dummed by SAdam that they can not trust anyone... that is going to be the fall of Iraq... everyone needs a little help from someone someday... and this is Iraq's day
Posts: 39 | From: West St. Paul, MN USA | Registered: Apr 2004
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Yes but Sadam stompped these organizations and refused to allow them to operate under him... these were underground organizations...because GOD forbid that the people become organized and self sufficient...m aybe they would actually see the murderer for who he was...he killed his own people...women and children too... the USA is nto the only ones who used bombs... DUH!!! Iraq bombed right back and most bombs are made with cancer causing uranium.... but hey blame the USA because it is easy that way... do not blame yourselves for makeing your families live in a war zone... not attempting to move away from the area or maybe take a vacation in europe somewhere... no live right exactly where the fighting is the heaviest so we can blame america... well you know something... America is there because the Iraqi people were too scared to get sadam out themselves and he killed his own women, children and men... one person that worked for him reported that he tested some kind of weapon on this whole small village and the dead bodies were allover in the street, at the market... motehrs with children, pregnant women... they all were unsuspecting that sadam would test his crap out on them... but do not blame the dead on US alone... HELLO!!!!!! a war is going on the guerilla fighters, Iraqi sadam army and all who were fighting is to blame for that...death is a consequence of war... murder like sadam did is pure evil.
quote:Originally posted by Jutta3: I think there is nobody who is judging right what the USA did in Irak. But on the other hand: why they do not make any differences? For me this is a matter of knowledge. There were already Engineers in the country who helped them to rebuild their Electricity system which was originally build 50 years ago i.e. by German Companies. There were already social organisation who were trying to help in medical things as well as in educational matters etc. There were already engineers in the country who were trying to find out together with the Iraqi people how a better infrastructure can be rebuild. Why are they murdering the people who are trying to help? If I want to do something for my country, why does it always have to be by fighting and war? Did nobody remember Ghandi? Or do you remember the inner German revolution some years ago? No Fight, no blood, no war. What is the priority of the Iraqi people - to get the Americans out or to rebuild their own country? Is it more important to fight and get the foreign people out of their country or more important to help their own people, to get hospitals for the children, schools, food and rebuild the economy? For me personally, what happens in Iraq is just the reaction of people who never learned to think!
Posts: 39 | From: West St. Paul, MN USA | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Murder is not just murder when an outside force perpetrates it, it is then an invasion. Especially if followed by occupation. If a woman is raped on the street it is a different crime than if she is raped in her home, and then the criminal lives in her house and continues to rape her, if you get my analogy. If not, and you see it as all the same, you are misunderstanding a huge part of the picture. (The proper word is rapist, but no big deal)
The arguement that the towns will suffer if the US leaves is ridiculous. I have debated this countless times and there is a simple answer, one which Hashimoto of Japan was actually implementing. REPLACE the US bases with GERMAN ones. Those Germans working in US Military facilities can work in the new German Military facilities. One of Germany's largest industries is military/defense manufacturing. The shops in question will be frequented by German troops. I don't exactly mourn for the bi-national families, they can either stay in Germany or go to the US, just like every other bi-national family in a similar situation that is not a military family already cope with. I still haven't been presented with a reasonable explanation regarding why the US should be entitled to have its troops in Germany, especially given the way they have been violating rights of the local citizens. What is the real reason behind not wanting to change? I think it is guilt and condemnation.
posted
Amuna, I think there is a HUGE difference, in what the "normal" soldier is thinking and what the world thinks of the US government. You are absolutely right: we should not judge and generalize about "The Americans" and "The Iraqi". But I think as you said yourself: everyone could only learn from the news. I personally prefer to watch 5 or 6 different TV channels to get halfway objective picture of whats going on. But I also personally was travelling several times to the US, has worked together with US-colleagues and what I noticed every time was, that it is not usual for US people (or let'S say many of them) to show interest in other cultures, mainly in other religions. Many of them think that their systems are the best, their opinion the right and that anybody else should adopt that. I am convinced, that with much more sensitivity and sensibility the US government would have been able to avoid this fighting now. But I can imagine how you feel: a friend of me is working for the German social organization CARITAS and was in Bagdad to help, but have to come back 3 weeks ago. He is so depressed because he also doesn't know why people don't accept that he was just trying to help.
Posts: 306 | From: Frankfurt, Germany | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Anuna no one likes Saddam either. One of the issues is why is the US going after Saddam and has refused to do anything in Rwanda (mass killing and genocide) China (strict dictatorship with less rights than Iraq) or North Korea (admits to having WMD including nuclear arms AND has threatened to use them against Japan which is under US protection as well as the US itself.) Ashcroft's own words essentially said "because they hold no economic interest for the US to go to war." I am reserved about getting into Israel, but hey let's do it. Israel is the worst, most racist country currently on the face of the Earth. Rwanda has genocide but there is no government policy supporting it because there is no real government. Israel is worse than Apartheid South Africa ever was. Why doesn't the US do something about that? Even Israeli soldiers are protesting Sharon's policies. Oh yes, the US action in Israel is to send them money and military expertise. Hypocritical bigotry is what the world sees. The US has worn out its sympathy from September 11th and mainly by being hyprocrites. The US got hit for a reason, and it is not for being largely Christian and wealthy. Japan doesn't care in the least for the God of Islam, Christianity and Judaism and has a more hedonistic society than the States does, but Al Qaeda could not care less. Let's look at the US foreign policy when wondering why homesick2 and others are having such a response.
"do not blame yourselves for makeing your families live in a war zone... not attempting to move away from the area or maybe take a vacation in europe somewhere"
and sorry to say it, but this line is one of the most ignorant things I have ever read
[This message has been edited by Undead (edited 14 April 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by Undead: Murder is not just murder when an outside force perpetrates it, it is then an invasion. Especially if followed by occupation. If a woman is raped on the street it is a different crime than if she is raped in her home, and then the criminal lives in her house and continues to rape her, if you get my analogy. If not, and you see it as all the same, you are misunderstanding a huge part of the picture. (The proper word is rapist, but no big deal)
The arguement that the towns will suffer if the US leaves is ridiculous. I have debated this countless times and there is a simple answer, one which Hashimoto of Japan was actually implementing. REPLACE the US bases with GERMAN ones. Those Germans working in US Military facilities can work in the new German Military facilities. One of Germany's largest industries is military/defense manufacturing. The shops in question will be frequented by German troops. I don't exactly mourn for the bi-national families, they can either stay in Germany or go to the US, just like every other bi-national family in a similar situation that is not a military family already cope with. I still haven't been presented with a reasonable explanation regarding why the US should be entitled to have its troops in Germany, especially given the way they have been violating rights of the local citizens. What is the real reason behind not wanting to change? I think it is guilt and condemnation.
Undead, I assume that you are not German and that you are not living within the German system. Germany has absolutely NO MORE MONEY to finance additionally the former US facilities for the German Military. And 90% of the Germans dont want to have more Military and more money for the Military facilities. In fact most of the Germans dont want to have ANY Military facilities.
And did you ever talk to a woman who have been raped?????? I have, because a girl of my school was raped. Do you think that from the emotional point of view, there is any difference which nationality the rapist had?? Definitely NOT. Crime is crime no matter who does it. And for the victim it is absolutely the same.
posted
You are wrong in your assumptions. I have German family members who are involved in law making in Germany. The fact that the German majority doesn't want bases is because they are brainwashed into thinking that Germans + military = NAZI. We already agreed on that point, and it is largely irrelevant to the question of why should the US be there. UN servicemen make more sense. German tax money also contributes to the US "occupation." If you think Germany has absolutely no more money... oh well I guess you look at different figures than I do. North Korea can support a military (with Nuclear arms) but Germany is far too poor
YES I HAVE spoken to women that have been raped. I have spoken to CHILDREN who have been raped, both by their parents and by strangers. WHO perpetrates the crime does indeed make difference. I am rather annoyed that you make these assumptions but I forgive you on the basis that you don't know me nor anything about me. Don't try to pull this "I know victims" line, it really sickens me because of victims in my personal life. Tell me you know a victim, fine, but don't assume I haven't dealt with these things in my own life! Anyway it is irrelevant to the point. Crimes coupled with occupation are different than crimes committed by local citizens. I am sure that if the Nazi's killed 46,000 GERMANS in one day in Auschwitz it would have been received differently than it was historically, when they killed Polish Jews. Civil wars are different than wars of conquest. If you can't tell the difference I will give up and let you live in your fantasy.
[This message has been edited by Undead (edited 14 April 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by anuna: I know what it looks like to you, what your leaders and your people tell you. Media is biased and does not tell the whole story no matter what part of the world you are in.
Obviously you've been watching and listening to US mainstream media, you're completely brainwashed.
quote:Originally posted by anuna:
The United States OF America (yes I am American) did not come in and take anything away from the people of Iraq.
Only their land,freedom,dignity and hope.
quote:Originally posted by anuna:
IF they would stop being so ignorant and biligerant at this point...
lol....how understanding of you, i know they should just hand the keys to Bremer and just leave their homes . [/B][/QUOTE]
quote:Originally posted by anuna:
stop fighting eachother long enough
Again Brainwashed, they ar NOT fighting eachother, they ARE FIGHTING THE OCCUPIERS.
quote:Originally posted by anuna:
to see who is the real theif SADAM HUSSEIN and his dead DEAD sons... they stole the freedom, money and precious lives from the Iraquis...
What gave you the impression they don't know that Saddam and his sons wer thieves and criminals?
quote:Originally posted by anuna:
The USA, I have a brother who just came back from there... hated being there, hated being seen as someone who was there to take something instead of what his mission was as it was given to him- to free the Iraqi people from Sadam and his sons
Are you soooo dumb to actualy think that the US would spend that kind of money,mobilize this kind of force and take that kind of risk to simply Free the Iraqis from Saddam...ok they got Saddam ..now get the **** OUT.
quote:Originally posted by anuna: to give the country back democracy and freedoms the people have been deprived of for so long.
What..Where..When...was I in a coma or something?What Democracy, what Freedom? and you know what you can't give what you ain't got..duh.
quote:Originally posted by anuna:
My brother brought nothing back with him except joy that he is home and able to finally see his new wife (that he had to leave after only 1 day of marriage) and his new born son conceived the marriage night. People that are fighting over there are exactly that...people... our troops honestly beleive that they are going to help rebuild what was destroyed in war by them and AND SADAM and the rouge fighters... they want to help people get water, power and electricity and oil so they can use their vehicles again...
How nice of him,was he one of those who killed women and children along with freedom fighters, I don't care if he and other like him are nice they are murderers , KILLERS of women and children. Just the fact that they are there in Iraq, means they are supporting the Bush government, I'll say it again... they want to help Iraqis, GET OUT.
quote:Originally posted by anuna: ... but we are not "occupying" Iraq...
OK...now that's just DUMB
quote:Originally posted by anuna: our mission as it is given to our men and women, sisters and brothers, mothers and fathers, aunts and uncles in uniform is to rebuild and help a country that has been living in fear and retaliation for too many years and it has to stop.
I see, and Iraqis can't do that for themselves,they need someone from outside to destroy their homes and then rebuild them again...poor Iraqis how did they manage without the US all that time .
since you're so nice,how about giving them all that money the US is spending on troops? I'm sure they can rebuild on their own.
quote:Originally posted by anuna: Remember when you are out killing the US people and taking them hostage that they are someones child, someone mom, someones dad, someones family and they are loved... they maybe a great person and they have a job to do.. do you know that 90% of the troops there have normal lives here and are RESERVE troops...they go play on base every other weekend and two weeks every year... with their unit... but they work in stores, hospitals, dry cleaners and so on normal times...
Stop it,,your'e making me cry..
For as long as the poeple who are dying IN IRAQ are NOT IRAQIS i have a big smile on my face.If they don't want to die..well, it's very short trip anywhere OUT of IRAQ.
quote:Originally posted by anuna: this by the way is what the President said last night in a Speech he gave is what the future agenda of our troops in Iraq is...to help them settle into a life with out SADAM and he is trying hard to get the UN to help the US and the other countries to make Iraq a happy and safe place to start a business, raise a family, get an education and health care will be for all... this is what he stated to the people as his goal now with Iraq... it is some of the people who are so dummed by SAdam that they can not trust anyone... that is going to be the fall of Iraq... everyone needs a little help from someone someday... and this is Iraq's day
and the above sums up everything about you, you're brain washed dumb and incompetent, by now even the dumbest of the dumb should not even bother listening to that Moron, he is an insult to Humanity.
quote:Originally posted by Monica: Arabs are very emotional ...and that is not always positive!
WRONG..Germany accepted the US version of Democracy and Freedom,Arabs and particularly Moslems have different understanding of what Freedom is, and their version of Democracy may very well mean Islamic state , something the US is dead against. The US have never promoted Democracy , to the contrary it has routinly supported corrup regimes and dictators and helped overthrow democraticly elected governments. They engaged in assasinations and finance know murderes who serve the US interes.
posted
Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.
When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars! into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.
I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?
Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles.
You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon -! not once, but several times - and safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.
I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."
Stand proud, America!
This is one of the best editorials that I have ever read regarding the United States. It is nice that one man realizes it. I only wish that the rest of the world would realize it. We are always blamed for everything, and never even get a thank you for the things we do.
I would hope that each of you would send this to as many people as you can and emphasize that they should send it to as many of their friends until this letter is sent to every person on the web. I am just a single American that has read this.
Comments: Aside from the fact that this text was written 28 years ago and has suffered minor revisions during its travels in cyberspace, it is authentic. Journalist and radio personality Gordon Sinclair delivered the commentary on his Toronto show in 1973, when anti-American sentiment was at an all-time high. For obvious reasons, Americans ate it up.
The piece has circulated on the Internet — sometimes attributed to Sinclair and sometimes not (but always to "a Canadian") — for several years. Its suddenly renewed popularity in September 2001 can be attributed to the devastating terrorist attacks on U.S. soil. Americans, smarting from the implicit hatred behind these acts, have found solace in sincere words of appreciation from a geographical neighbor.
Posts: 29 | From: Houston, Texas, USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by anuna: ... do not blame yourselves for makeing your families live in a war zone... not attempting to move away from the area or maybe take a vacation in europe somewhere... no live right exactly where the fighting is the heaviest so we can blame america...
I disagree with Undead this comment is not ignorant it is Hilarious
posted
Anuna, I have deep resentment for any man or woman who freely becomes a professional soldier -- whether motivated by money via scholarship to do part-time service or full time soldier -- and says that it's NOT his/her choice.
There is not a SINGLE CIVILIAN who has been DRAFTED to IRAQ. Every soldier in Iraq is a paid professional.
Stop with the sob story of your poor brother. It was a decision he made, unlike the countless men in Iraq who never made it to the loving arms of their wives and children.
quote:Originally posted by homesick2: and the above sums up everything about you, you're brain washed dumb and incompetent, by now even the dumbest of the dumb should not even bother listening to that Moron, he is an insult to Humanity.
I think it is you that is brainwashed... if you actually read my words I said "The media does not give you the whole story no matter what part of the world you are in..." so there for YES I did agree long ago that I am not getting all the news and I do read on line arabic news papers... yes I can read and write arabic and yes I am a muslim and AMERICAN I know that for a fact that America did not take anything from the IRaqi people... the SAdam jerk did... Americans are there for a reason now... to help rebuild after war... to help the new government into power LED BY IRAQI PEOPLE... I have seen on satellite the commission they have now.. made up of mostly Iraqi women fighting to get into government and to help others and they THANKED the USA for helping rid sadam and HELPING FUND $$$$ the rebuilding of IRaq and FUND$$$$ health programs, medicines, help victims of war, help FUND$$$$ when no one else will... I do not see any other countries willing to make that financial sacrifice to assist others...
Posts: 39 | From: West St. Paul, MN USA | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by homesick2: I would wanna be Iraqi.
The last few days have made me proud of them, they want freedom and they know it's not something that can be handed to them, they're gonna have to fight and fight dirty.
The attacks on the US supply lines shows that they're organized.
The kidnappings make clear that any and all foreigners are not safe, all those mercenaries hired by Corporations to protect them while they pillage the country’s wealth are now themselves target.
It's going to be hell for all and I like it.
Well, here's Tigerlily, and whalahi I really don't want to contribute anymore posts on this ES forum but this post really got me annoyed and disguisted (by the way the moderators are fine with statements like that I wonder????).
HomeSICK2: you are really sick. I don't want to imagine Egyptians sitting infront of their TVS and clapping hands and singing happy songs while brutally killed Americans get dragged down the street. These are not the Egyptians I know of ......... May I assume you really "liked" the WTC tragedy too?
No one should suffer whether on which side the person is. We all agree that to a certain point that this Iraq war was unjustified. The Americans got themselves into something and they pay also a heavy prize for it. The first couple of weeks of the war last year I was sitting at any given time infront of my TV and I cried so much. I just gave the month before birth to a new baby - so I was even feeling more emotionally. I hate wars and its never good. But Iraq needed to get rid of their old regime because they couldn't help themselves.
Homesick2, the US is doing financially a lot also for your homecountry Egypt, I believe they are the biggest supporters from the outside. And I believe they have every right to know what happens to the money and that it get used the assigned way (because I hear all the time that the US want to control it). But whatever the US is doing its never enough or not right or whatever. Just to blame someone else ..... if the own country can't accomplish a good living standard and education for each of their citizens.
Homesick2, I don't want that you praise the US because even I don't agree in everything what they are thinking of and doing. But to support killings of any humane beings regardless their nationality - just only that is a crime. Thats the worst what one humane being can do to another one.
I hope the US troops get Iraq stabilized and get the hell out of there. No one wants to harm the Iraqi people; I am very concerned about the welfare of these people and pray for a better life for them in the future. But they don't make it easier in kidnapping and killing aid workers.
To Undead: You drifted so far away from the original topic. ..... You take a single case of an US soldier raped a German woman and imply this here on the board that ALL Americans are like cruelsome and disguisting and that they should leave and close their installations in Germany. Why do you care? Don't you think you have enough own problems in Egypt to care about? As a matter of fact in general the Germans like and appreciate the American citizens inside the country. Infact these individuals commit crimes way less than other foreign nationals in our country. And you should also know that the US Military courts are way stricter in prosecuting.
Its true that the Germans themselves reducing their troop force and closing down military installations because of financial reasons and our still "sticky past". When I came first to Egypt I was told how great Hitler was!
But back to the subject. The US started closing down also installations inside Germany since couple of years and just implemented new plans and moving troops to Eastern Block countries. Lot of Germans don't appreciate that fact but of course we have to accept it.
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Okay, what I realise here on this forum is a lot of hate against the US and their actions.
........... And unbelievable I feel support for Al-Qaeda.............
Guys, you don't have to wonder if in the nearest future everything will shut down, even your country Egypt and no more tourists are coming. I don't want to imagine the worst. Arabic countries definitely need to do way more to catch and punish terrorists as these are the origin countries these people are coming from. And I think its disguisting (I don't know any other word which can discribe my feelings) that Ossama and his little freaks are calling for the 'Holy War' (What a stupidity!!!) to bring disaster to all Western countries. Who will win in the end, who will survive? I don't want to imagine. We don't have anything better to do than destroying ourselves and our planet?!
Oooops, I actually didn't want anymore to contribute to this ES forum and I am happy to stay out of it as I can see clearly in which direction everything is going ......
Homesick2, your post speaks volumes...... and its truly disguisting. I am scared now to go on my yearly trip in June to Egypt. What else will I have to listen to and feel? I am very concerned about the mood here on ES. Thats not how my memories are of Egyptian people and I hope I will have a great experience like I used too.
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Nur fuer Jutta: Jutta, ich moechte gerne mit Dir in Kontakt treten. Wie Du Dich vielleicht noch erinnern kannst, ich ziehe im Juni zurueck in die Naehe von FRA. Wenn Du gerne mit mir in Kontakt treten moechtest, hinterlasse hier eine Nachricht in dieser Topic. Ach so, es freut mich natuerlich, dass Du so eine tolle Zeit in Aegypten hattest und alles Gute fuer Euch beide fuer Eure gemeinsame Zukunft. PS: Es gibt Aegyptische Gesellschaften in verschiedenen Staedten in Deutschland, hast Du das schon ausgecheckt? Wenn Dein Mann nach Deutschland kommt, wird er erst einmal einen Kulturschock erleben, sicherlich. Gib ihm viel Zeit ...... alles wird gut.
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Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I do not think dear person... that you are even Muslim... you should be ashamed of what you say about people dying no matter who they are. WAR is what it is... and for your mislead information the USA has given money to the new government to rebuild it and to rebuild everything that war has taken... yes you are stupid and ignorant and really full of yourself WHY if the Iraqi people did not need help why then did it take the US to bring him out of power... the truth is Iraqi's are dying at Iraqi hands and have since Sadam has taken office... and the USA when we have been there have taken minimal lives of the Iraqi people but have killed soldiers.. that is a cruel sad fact of war... but The Iraqis have killed more americans and other nationalites in this war... SO I think that you are mistaken and you are a cruel person who should not speak badly about people with good intentions and people who are following good intended orders... You I think are not muslim so I leave you with "La koum din a koum wa lai ihdini" if you do not understand that... I think that that is your own problem.. ask someone I care.. but I also have sworn to my sister that if MY BROTHER does not come home to her and their baby alive IF he gets sent back... I will go there myself.. and people like you will hear from me... I am not a murderer and I plan to kill no one... but people like you need to learn when to hold his tounge... it is people like you that fuel terrorism in countries like Iraq, Isarel and you are no better than slobodan Malosevic or Sharon in Isreal... There are peopel with great intentions.. and no one BUT the extremeist factions such as yourself have taken away anyones dignity everyone needs help some time and you know what... you are someone who probably thinks you will never need anyone to help you do anything in your life... and I feel very sorry for you... I feel that you know not what humanity is... and our soldiers are taught that... they do not kill unless someone is pointing a gun at them first and pulling th trigger YES it is sad that innocent have dies and I do no t condone that... but I beleive that USA is doing good there... maybe not the government but the soldiers and I think for the most part... for firends and FAMILY I Have living there.. not just American family living there arab Iraqi family there... people are greatful... YOu know there have been amazing Iraqi people that have helped the USA defeat sadam and I also feel that in my upset about what you have said toward me... I accused you of not being a muslim.. this is a sensitive issue for me... because It bothers me when people hate without knowing the faces in real life that they hate... they hate them because they are american or hate them because they are soldiers... that is wrong and I am telling you I am sorry If I said something bad against you... I was angry and it does not make it right for me tosay that... but I am not a soldier... I am not the government... I am a human being.. with feelings and ideas of how this world should be... and what I am told and waht I hear from familuy anmd friends who are overseas Iraqi overseas people... I hear that mostly USA is doing good... that is why I want to stand behind it... Rawanda USA did get involved... USA lost.. Rawanda still fights and things still happen... USA has money for Africa for Rawanda... USA has given the people in temporary government in Iraq money and GUESS what!!! Hosni gets billions of dollars every year from the USA not from tourism either... straight from USA government... I do not know what for... BUt I have relatives in Cairo, in Alexandria, and some poor ones in Kasral Batikha... so I know I also have a freiend and her husband sitting ont eh chameber of commerce in Suez and I know many things that would suprise you... I love my people, my fellow muslims... but I live so far away from the war... so far away from those people... I do not know everything.. I am just trying to defend what I have been told by the people themselves... and to tell you the truth there is much about the government taht I do not agree with... much that I fight against with it... so I am not brainwashed by the government... Posts: 39 | From: West St. Paul, MN USA | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by shamila: i think all muslims shud go fight the americans, we all r goin 2 die 1 day so die with pride and honour for ur religion and ur country.
respect 2 all
Thats what happened to ES.......????????????
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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If anyone steps through my door and tries to kill someone from my family, wether it is husband, children, parents, brother; I will defend them the same way girl! And if I'm killed this way, my family will defend my blood, whatever it takes!
Can't imagine you would not defend your children if that happened to you! I know you would!
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 14 April 2004).]
posted
Tigerlily- I want to thank you for saying what I really could not reasonable and understandably say... I do not agree that the USA should of bothered Sadam initially I was thinking to myself "but he did not even do anything to anyone yet"... then I saw the brital pictures put on internet news channel of some villages in Iraq where women and children were laying dead froze in the same fear look they had as they died... this sickened me and made me realize that he had some bad weapons and I remembered back to when Sadam signed the treaty after the first war.. he could not use those and had to get rid of those because of what he did to Iran.... USA then had a broken treaty and the result of that is again war. Actually the first war I was only 13 and I was very ill- bed ridden and I wept... threw the phone at the TV and I would not eat because of the war itself...
This time I wept because my brother was over there and now it was closer to me than ever... I have friends and family there... but they do not worry much because to them unfortunately this is normal everyday life... I am scared for them as well... I am not saying that the war is right... But i know many of the soldiers who are there and were there.. their honest given mission to them was to protect Iraq, the people and help them rebuild after SADAM is out... fund them and allow finally some freedom that was a long time coming... the pwople of Iraq did alot for their own freedom but just needed a little help (as everyone does at some point in life).. and the troops are there... now i do not know the "secret agenda" of USA government and I do not think I want to know... but I know many of the people there only want good for the people of Iraq... I weep now and get upset now because I am pregnant and of course you are already emotional in pregnancy... so I too am bowing out of this particular section of comments... I wish you all the best and for those I shared harsh words with... I am someone that fights for what I believe in... I am disappointed in the fact that some of you here feel that murdering someone taht is not Iraqi is fine... and I really am sorry for sounding so harsh... I wish we both could see eachothers point of view and come out with a better understanding of things and some commonality in the issue... but I find hate and murderous thinking... I do not want to be a part of that... I love America, I love my Arab people as well as my european heritage... I love my fellow muslims... but I can not stand by and let you tell others it is ok to breed hate... for what ever reasons you may think you have.
Posts: 39 | From: West St. Paul, MN USA | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
America went to Iraq to rid the world of someone that needed to be taken out. Nobody else wanted to do it. I am glad that America did. Other people did not want him taken out and stood in the way - they were taken out. If the people (extremists, terrorists, others with no other interest than hate) in Iraq were to STOP shooting at the soldiers and the civilian workers, the soldiers would STOP shooting back. Rebuilding would take place instead of death and destruction.
------------------ Regards, softouch
Posts: 29 | From: Houston, Texas, USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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How come America did not do it during the first Gulf war involving Iraq and Kuweit?
quote:Originally posted by softouch: America went to Iraq to rid the world of someone that needed to be taken out. Nobody else wanted to do it. I am glad that America did. Other people did not want him taken out and stood in the way - they were taken out. If the people (extremists, terrorists, others with no other interest than hate) in Iraq were to STOP shooting at the soldiers and the civilian workers, the soldiers would STOP shooting back. Rebuilding would take place instead of death and destruction.
posted
Tigerlily, it is still on point. I am using the German analogy to illustrate that the US doesn't just come to kick out the bad guy and then leave peacefully. Jutta wanted to debate the details and I indulged her. If you want to referee why don't you bring her back on point? Anyway, the US is still in Germany and they are still in Japan, more than 50 years later. How long do you think they will be in Iraq if the Iraqis don't struggle? Try and look at the big picture and you will see it is directly relevant. Additionally, it wasn't ONE case I was referring to. In both Germany and Japan over the last 50 years there have been cases numbering in the hundreds, and the unreported estimates are much higher. If you think the US military courts are vigilant prosecuting their own soldiers you are mistaken. First someone has to organize charges, then present it to the military operatives and then *hope* they do something. Usually nothing happens unless there is irrefutable evidence. In the publicized Japanese case that took place in Okinawa the four rapists (US soldiers) got SEVEN years for kidnapping, beating and brutally raping a child. Civilians in the US get more time in prison for that kind of crime. The USO didn't even want to turn the soldiers over to Japanese courts! Germany and Japan have both been pressuring the US to remove bases and have been in negotiation regarding it since at least 1995, so you aren't enlightening me with saying that the US has been scaling down their operations in those countries. Guess why they have been trying to get the US out?
Why do I care, you ask? Why do you care about Egypt? Don't you have enough to worry about in Germany? It is a stupid question but I will answer it anyway. I have German relatives, my Grandfather is German, my family has been involved in international law making(including German law) since before I was born. So, I was brought up both caring about and being educated regarding such matters. Besides, I have enough education, exposure, and intelligence to care about more than one country at a time. I lived for 18 years in the States, (and I am back in the US for now) so I care about that as well.
[This message has been edited by Undead (edited 14 April 2004).]
posted
A- I stay out of political topics on these types of forums but your ignorant posts -which somehow you think are all that more credible because you're in the States and muslim- have made me want to really smack some sense into you woman.
Did you ever bother looking to see who put Sadam into power? The Unites States. Ooops. Where did you get the idea more US soldiers are dying than Iraqi civilians? Because you see a headline that reads "X US soldiers died today"? You don't see much about civilians dying in the US media," do you. And when you do, it's alleged reports say...
And WHAT, please explain to me, is this crap about...and I quote you here..
"and our soldiers are taught that... they do not kill unless someone is pointing a gun at them first and pulling th trigger YES it is sad that innocent have dies and I do no t condone that... but I beleive that USA is doing good there... maybe not the government but the soldiers and I think for the most part... "
What country are you talking about? The US? What branch are you talking about? The navy? The marines? The army? The air force? Because it's a well know and pretty common FACT that military personnel have the RIGHT...in fact ORDERS... to KILL first, ask questions later. They do not even have to identify themselves before they put a bullet in your back, as long as they think you may have had "intentions" to kill them.
(Or did you skip the part of your evening news when marines were patroling borders between mexico and US and were killing people who were running acrosss the border without warning?)
Even CNN broadcast the "unfortunate" accidents when the oh so brave soldiers are pissing in their pants too much to notice that the potential "danger" terrorists is a scared family and end up showering a car with friendly bullets...killing women and children. But they cry about it. So it's ok, I guess.
I now understand why we have an idiot in the white house. (And YES, I am american)
posted
Somebody correct me if I am wrong (I'm sure you will) but I think there are more muslims killing muslims than americans killing muslims. And not only in Iraq.
------------------ Regards, softouch
Posts: 29 | From: Houston, Texas, USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ExptinCAI: [/B] I now understand why we have an idiot in the white house. (And YES, I am american)[/B]
I'm not arguing with you there! That man is a war mongerer, Clinton might have been an adulterer, but that is better than Bush. Anyway, I'm not American. I'm not going to make any more comments about your government. Can I just ask a question about Iraq. What would be better, Saddam Hussein killing people in secret like he was doing before...or handing the country to some sort of new control? I'm not arguing that killing innocent people is wrong, definately so wrong. But isn't there a bit of a case of some factions of the Iraqi people biting the hand that helps them? Ok, maybe we shouldn't have got involved...but we did. There is nothing anyone can do about that. It is done. What can we do for the future now? That is what we should be thinking, not we shouldn't have gone in. People should do less of looking at the past and more to the future.
posted
Does it really matter who the killers are? and who committed injustice? what matters is that killings and injustice have been committed, left and right and are still going on. And this must stop.
How ?
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 14 April 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by softouch: America went to Iraq to rid the world of someone that needed to be taken out. Nobody else wanted to do it. I am glad that America did. Other people did not want him taken out and stood in the way - they were taken out. If the people (extremists, terrorists, others with no other interest than hate) in Iraq were to STOP shooting at the soldiers and the civilian workers, the soldiers would STOP shooting back. Rebuilding would take place instead of death and destruction.
This is a political marketing BS that US govt put up on American TV screens to sell the war. Did not you forget, tat first they started by saying
1. Sadaam is a threat to our security here in USA (no mention of Iraqi people), notice our security here - did not work, not convicing
2. try 2: Sadaam has weapons of mass destruction, and peaceful countries should not have those (what does it make us here in USA and Israel, perhaps?). well, people doubted that
3. try 3: ok, let's appeal to our basic concepts we stand for: democracy and freedom. Let's liberate Iraq! Shock and Awe! Awesome. ha? it is a bs for sure.
[This message has been edited by katrina (edited 14 April 2004).]
posted
Thanks for the reminder Katrina, for those who need it. Also let us not forget that the Bush Administration has been under investigation for doctoring intelligence regarding uranium sales to Iraq, Hussein's ties to Al Qaeda, and Hussein's ties to the Sept. 11th attacks. All of these have been proven to be baseless lies that the Bush Administration told in order to sell the war. The UN didn't believe the US Administration, so why do these individuals without any intelligence agency at their service believe the Bush Administration (again, which has been CAUGHT telling lies when under commission investigation) yet think the other nations of the United Nations Security Council except England, with all of their vast resources and intelligence apparati, are dead wrong. The current news programs are full of American and foreign experts both telling of how this invasion of Iraq is the most ill conceived foreign policy since the Iran-Contra scandal. Rife with lies and conspiracy.
Posts: 238 | Registered: Jan 2004
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If anyone in Iraq has to die I would rather the are US soldiers, Mercenaries and other foreign elements die. You took my statement and interpreted it the way you were inclined to...I was purposefully not specific to attract idiots like you , I have to say ..I thought there would be more..lol Go ahead make this all about terrorism and Bin Laden and all that crap.
[This message has been edited by homesick2 (edited 14 April 2004).]
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