kimo i never said that women not wearing hijab arent ideal sort of women but they are lacking the fulfill of one of their basic islamic laws

------------------------
Doc 77 , I read most of your posting on ES and sometimes I was shocked by what u have to say, ur arguments ,sometimes,lack evidence and in it presented format could only convience kids.In this posting the first few are what u think which I am not sure is based on founding of different terms.Have to confess that I have not read the whole post but the first lines were enough.

Who said Hijab is a basic Islamic law,what is a basic Islamic law, What is an Islamic Law in the first place, Does Islam has a law, what is the differnce between the relegion (Islam) and insitutlizing Islam by scholars, and what is ur references ,
in making Hijab a Basic Islamic law, why a Basic and not just a code of the law. hopefully not Amr Khaild Have you ever thought that the fact the most of the Islamic schorlars were male has an effect?

Cheers

I have to run now, I would not be able to reply for few weeks, but I would be looking forward for the debate ( with references and evidence ) upon my return)

"Why only women? it is confirmed that visual stimulation plays a predominant role in the physiology of men compared to women"

In which medical or other journal this unique piece of evidence is being published, May be the Lancet.....please share it with us, would die to see it , knowing that I work on sexual health

I am goning to give u different interpution by well know schorlars for the quoted Ayyas, do not have all references now.

(just to let u know how much of the total rape victims and sexual harrsement in egypt are wearing hijab?? dont u think it gives ua hint)

Do u have any statistics that say how many women have been raped in Egypt for the past 5 Y, I am looking for such an information please help if you can

As far as I know, there is no information on incidence of rape in Egypt. So how can we know whether the victims were wearing the Hijab or NOT?

Furthermore, are u talking about reported rape cases? A recent report in Egypt has shown that more that 30% of the ocurred rape cases are not reported?

((one more thing, look at those women who convert to islam and chose islam being much commited for it, u find them mostly all covered and sticking to the basics and teaching very good enough even better sometimes than those muslim born and why is this?? cause they believe in islam, understand islam, they have lived both lives they have seen the differences, they truly believe and are commited to submit to it and realise what a real meaning of islam is .))))

Wrong people who convert to any religion want to be accepted so they go to extrem, so even the man are wearing Jalabya.The same for the ID women from South Sudan, they want to be accepted by the people in the North so they convert to Islam and even perform circumcision. In Socail Science this is called (means of acceptability).

(((lastly islam isnt just about a cover or a scarf but hijab is a part of the lovely islams teachings and allah knows the best))))

Lovely, this is becasue u are not a women and do not have to be covered in 43 dgree
ha ha he

Cheers

And to Jag and Monica, my comment about the bad hair day was said in jest as this whole topic has disintegrated to who can appear more powerful in their "debating/convincing skills". I get the impression from both of your comments that you found my humor lacking. So be it.

Now back to my studies which Insh"allah will be far more beneficial than anything I could read here.

Laura

I did not refer to it at all in regards with your joke!!! I know people that say so in confidence or even out loud..'that after all we have one thing less to worry about, our hair!!!'

And I'm serious wallahy..I hear it all the time, that's why I mentioned it!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laura:
Its always rather amusing that when ever this topic is brought up...and how many times is this now???...that the "big debates" are always between men and women who don't wear hijab? I always wonder, who are they trying to convince? Us that DO wear the hijab or themselves? It always turns into the same ole same ole.

And to Jag and Monica, my comment about the bad hair day was said in jest as this whole topic has disintegrated to who can appear more powerful in their "debating/convincing skills". I get the impression from both of your comments that you found my humor lacking. So be it.

Now back to my studies which Insh"allah will be far more beneficial than anything I could read here.

Laura

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by moll:
I think it's like so many things that are wrong with the Christian church, it's a debate that's taking attention away from the really important issues.

---

kimo : thanks for the reply
monica & dalia : thanks for the contribution
jaguar : hi sir , am back out of the shell happy eid tahrir sina

Nesrine : thanks for contribution

[If you draw a connection between rape and attractivity that means you have understood very little about rape. Numerous studies have showed that rape is not about sexuality, it is about control and aggression. It is a misconception that the more attractive a woman is the more likely she is to be raped, it's rather the other way around.[This message has been edited by Dalia (edited 24 April 2004).][/B]
[/QUOTE]

Dalia here i meant that some elinquencies and behaviiours whether good or bad are influenced by both ur inside motives and the external environment and of which the way people dress can tempt or make people judge differenty and hence behave different..You even mentioned it that dressing modestly avoids u much of haressement, thats what i wanted to say and about modesty the hijab is also a modest dress code

I do agree that women who wear hijab get less sexually harrassed, but my impression is that this has nothing to do with their appearance being more "modest" - it's rather the symbolic message of the headscarf which is supposed to tell others that you are a "good Muslima" and to be respected.[This message has been edited by Dalia (edited 24 April 2004).][/B]
[/QUOTE]

Also not just telling others that ur a good muslima, i do agree that theer so many wearing hijab and simply misbehaving in many ways , its no way to tell a person is good or bad by simply an out look and a hijab but its a teaching of islam to wear it and stick to it and like jaguar said u find that lady taking it off once she get into his place ( this is a typical ignorant muslima who wears hijab traditionally.

And one last thing ... as far as my
understanding of Islam goes there are certain things you have to submit to if you're a Muslim, particularly the five pillars of Islam. [This message has been edited by Dalia (edited 24 April 2004).][/B]
[/QUOTE]

well the pillars are the basics or the foundation of islam upon which other valuable teachings are built on and not simply the things u should stick to coz there are far more teachings otherwise besides many practice all these pillars and still misbehave in someway or another

so anyway what i wanna say is that iam never to accept enforcing a rule or do it by force and above all theer is a judge who knows what our intentions are above all, but just clearing some points since the topic is already opened and from the islamic perspective just giving my opinion but never to say its a law to be accomplished by force ..

one more thing is that really hijab is no barrier if u wanna run in a marathon some people do even wear a cap which i believe provides more energy, then those combat fighters wearing their heavy head shields all day and the average thermal heat production for one of them standing is x3 times the heat energy produced by a 20km marathon runner due to stress and body energetics. so its not basically about weather and heat and activity retardations coz above all if u accept something from ur heart and convinced with it u will suit urself inside it and then u could ask urself how did i think the opposite before!! if we were born to be naked forever we wouldnt simply accept a cover and similar if we were to be born head covered we would say discarding the cover could bring us bla bla bla and bring those execuses ahead..so the idea isnt about retarding any activity coz simply u will make a compromise to enjoy ur activity with that way u chose once ur convinced..primitive humans didnt enjoy swimming in pools or marathons and next generations of humans will have other ways of enjoying themsleves, its all relative

also the human brain is paralysed beyond a certain limit to understand the dimensions of the teachings and if everything is to be analysed to suit the understanding then we will neevr accept many things coz that human computer is so humble enough to sail deep into much of this universe's horizons..

so once again great to have that feed back , iam not against anyone, i dont have sisters but i do have many family members who dont wear headcovers and simply a great figure of people like many of u are. i just wanted to mention that islam urges the head cover as a part of it and its compulsory..

True there are many other important subjects but we had by chance this thread opened so good to explain to others with an indepth and again god is the best to identify what aour intentions are and no one can identify ur faith except him but if we are to believe in something and get convinced with it then we should try to fulfil it and explain to others our opinion

take care all of u and
rabenna ye2adarna 3ala el sef webalawih welly beye7sal fih

------------------
Dr.M.Lotfy
Resident Doctor of Dermatology & Andrology

quote:

---

Originally posted by EgyptianDoc77:
[B] like jaguar said u find that lady taking it off once she get into his place ( this is a typical ignorant muslima who wears hijab traditionally.

---

And how many of those 'typical ignorant muslimas' are going around wearing hijab traditionally - as you say - ? not really understanding if it is compulsory or not, or how should it be interpreted, and how come there was a very long era of no hijab in Egypt, and then suddenly it is compulsory, but not really, because not all Muslimas do wear the hijab; but some wear modest attires and are not even visible because of their discretion, whereas some wear hijab in a trendy flashy way and attract more attention to them...Businesses of hijab's abound by the way!!

And how come at the end of your message you are so worried about what the summer heat could do to people; whatever happened to self-control??? as if every woman should hide in the summer either she is wearing hijab or not, because my understanding is that men without self control will attack anything at anytime. I don't see that happening in Egypt where people respect themselves, or around the world like in Singapore for example, where it is hot all year...what a mess that would be...

Oh well...this could go on for ages...it is again a matter of opinion, interpretation, intention, choice, conscience, inner peace, guilt, benefit, trend, and also politics... and at the end of the day we are left with our self-respect, the lack of it, our own conscience or the lack of it. And, in conclusion: Allah A'lam ~ Only God knows.

The covering of the Muslim woman is not an option, it is a privilege and a commandment from Allah. It is the duty of every Muslim woman and the responsibility of every Muslim man. and allahu a'alam of course and is the witness of all

the dress is so simple , neat and very elegantly wrapped over the head, wallahu 3ala makool shahid ( and allahah is my witness)

see u all next week

quote:

---

Originally posted by Monica:
Preaching is very interesting...but I wonder if all those who preach, walk the talk??? If they do good for them!

[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 24 April 2004).]

---

Monica love, miss talking to u. Sitting in the hotel in Belgium, waiting for my connecting flight tomorrow puffffffffff

reading this interesting conversation can not wait to come back, so I can be Mohakabba ,so conviencing arguments

Cheers

So we will never agree. But as long as people like you don't try to force women in my family to wear something in which they don't believe I have no problem with you. I won't hold anyone back if they wear the hijab, I just say that I see it as a sign of profound misunderstanding of religion.

And your sermons on weak human nature are very unislamic. The last time I checked human nature is pure and good intrinsically. Everyone is born free of sin and totally on the side of light and goodness. What happens later depends on whether or not the person manages to communicate with God and understand his beauty. Laws are not here to limit our essentialy bad nature because we are not essentialy bad, they are here as guidelines and directions against accumulated cultural biases and ignorance. Such as mysogynism (sp?) which is rampant in the Muslim world today and which paradoxically Islam came to renounce. And again in Islam the jungle is not seen as an evil place, after all the animals and the trees do worship God. After all we were all taught that in origin everything is 7alal and that things that are 7aram are exceptions.

quote:

---

Originally posted by jaguar:
1- My cleaning lady wears Hijab, the minute she steps into my flat, she takes it off. She is no slut
2- Hijab is a way of life. Go to any bar in a hotel in Cairo, and notice a Mohajaba enjoying her cold beer. (seen that)
3- Some women think they are doing Islam a favour by wearing the hijab.
4- Sad Sad Sad, Hijab saves lots of cash (shampoo and hair-dressers)
5- Almost 50 posts in this thread, and we are all showing off our capacity of debating, reaching nowhere.
6- Kimo, I know el kafia To7kom, but no need for jokes about religion.
7- Homesick2 I agree with you.
8- EgyDoc77... Hiding in your shell young lad ??
9- To each his own- Hijab wise.
Rabena Ghafoor Raheem, Wallahi.

---

Lat week I saw a Mohajaba wearing jeens so tight i can actually see the outline of her undies (sorry). My mother on the other hand has been (still is) a respectable Mohajaba for the past 23 years, a practicing pediatrician in a top managerial position,her Hijab doesn't interfere with her leading a perfectly normal, active life. It's more than just a headcover, it's a way of life (totally agree).....I don't think we can tell jokes about God and religion anymore than we can tell jokes about the BOSS at work (not if you think he's listening anyway)!!!!!! To each his own again....I'm not veiled!!

OOOps forgot to say that i drive her nuts borrowing her suits (wearing a veil doesn't interfere with dressing elegantly.)

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mooly El Din:

"Why only women? it is confirmed that visual stimulation plays a predominant role in the physiology of men compared to women"

In which medical or other journal this unique piece of evidence is being published, May be the Lancet.....please share it with us, would die to see it , knowing that I work on sexual health

---

Huh? I remember being taught this in 9th grade sex ed. I always thought it was common knowledge. That's why there are probably 10 times as many publications like PLAYBOY selling out than their counterpart for women.

Please accept my apologies, I read more into your comments than I should have. Sometimes its hard for me to read things here and react according to just the words, when I dont have a face or eyes to look into when seeing comments made. Words can sometimes seem harsh standing alone.

after they eat from this tree, their clothes felt down and they got naked and they hurried to hide their bodies by the leafs of the paradise's trees, and they were shy from that, it was a punishment from god that he stop being responsible for their food and cloth and he sent them down to earth.

I tell u this introduction to tell u that any human is born has a shy in his nature from being naked [ as Adam and Eve didn't care about their cloth before god's punishment, he took care of that, they didn't know about naked before but when they got naked, as a respond they hurried to cover their selves, even they were only two ].

it is a thing in all humans, any human as an instinct is shy from being naked, I wonder how those people overcome this and wear bikinis nowadays, don't u see that there is a huge contrary between getting naked and human nature.

The Muslim woman after puberty age, they must wear something decent to cover their bodies as only the face and the hands appear to foreign men.
Also, they veil must cover the breast area so that to cover her tits.
They can wear any color [white is preferable not black], but not using a transparent cloth, also not to wear a stretchy cloth.

As a conclusion, she must not appear her beauty to foreign men.

As a result of that, the Muslim society has a less fornication; women are safe in the streets, less rate of rape.
Most women are married in young ages {18 to 21} and all of them are virgins till marriage.
Very peaceful and calm society and women are respected more here, for their minds not for their beauty as in other societies.

quote:

---

Originally posted by AMR the great:
[B]I will return back, since Adam & Eve, as
I tell u this introduction to tell u that any human is born has a shy in his nature from being naked [ as Adam and Eve didn't care about their cloth before god's punishment, he took care of that, they didn't know about naked before but when they got naked, as a respond they hurried to cover their selves, even they were only two ].

The Muslim woman after puberty age, they must wear something decent to cover their bodies as only the face and the hands appear to foreign men.
Also, they veil must cover the breast area so that to cover her tits.
21} and all of them are virgins till

---

.........................

Amr, I have to confess that your story was so amusing to read, during my Lunch break.

In the Quarn, as after as I know, there was is no mention that Adam of Eve were ashamed of being naked, there were rather so scared of God punishment after they disobeyed him/her .

Besides many years after their existence, lived many tribes with a dressing code that consisted only of heavy decoration around head and the neck. The sexual organs were uncovered as well as the rest of the body. I actually worked with one tribe in Africa, where the women did not cover their breast, and the longer the breast is the better, as it is a sign of fertility and they felt very natural

So u can see that your suggested theory of linking (being naked) to feeling of (Shame) and suggesting that this is ( natural) is a bit shaky.

Amr, what is ( Natural), social and anthropology sciences and well as behaviour theories, taught us that - a part of the human instincts ( being shy is not among the defined human instincts) there is nothing called natural-. In other words our reactions towards certain thing are being much influenced by our cultural surroundings, believes, inherited traditional and social peer pressure and many other interlinked factors. In addition to the fact that it is a patriarchal world.

For example, till one century ago, most of China would force their women to bound their foot, as having a woman with big foot in the family brings shame to them, and could result that the women in this family would not marry. Do u think this is natural just because it was a old custom related to the feeling of Sham?

I can tell u many examples in many countries, In Korea, people are ashamed of being short and they would go for surgeries to elongate their legs by inches. In certain groups/circles, like in fashion, people source of shame/honour are their bodies, they are ashamed of their bodies if it does not fit the current criteria, and many of them would end up being anorexic, so ensure that they look ( natural) within their surroundings. So it is natural among these groups and circles to be of a certain weight, and if not this cause shame and become not natural.

What I want to say that the concept of shame and honour should not be generalized and should be understood within a given context and a framework and also within a given period of time

Cheers

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rimo:
Lat week I saw a Mohajaba wearing jeens so tight i can actually see the outline of her undies (sorry).

---

As a result of that, the Muslim society has a less fornication; women are safe in the streets, less rate of rape.
Most women are married in young ages {18 to 21} and all of them are virgins till marriage.
and women are respected more here,
Now, what do you think is the veil a right thing or u can consider it as a cage for for their minds not for Very peaceful and calm society their beauty as in other societies.
women?[/B][/QUOTE]
--------------------------------------
Amr, you are assuming that because we have veiled women then we have more clam and peaceful society and so on ….. so are making positive correlation between:

Veil and peaceful and calm society
Veil and less fornication society
Veil and a younger average marriage age
Veil and less rape incidences
Veil a women's mobility
Veil and women's image and acceptability

Another interesting but yet factitious theory , from my point of view; and here are my reasons

1) According to recent reports and studies the % of crimes in Egypt has increased with ---% ( have to double check the source) during the past 7 years. And as we all have noticed that that the number of veiled women ( there is only one study I saw that support this observation ) have increased in past 5 years. Then actually there is a negative correlation rather than positive one as u suggest.

2) Less fornication society, can not debate this one as I am not sure what do u mean by fornication, do u mean less premarital sex and interamartial sex I doubt . Do you mean people praying more, do you mean that the corruption has decreased and commitment has increased, and as a result we are experiencing a flourished economy do u mean people are less lying and cheating

3) Veil in relation to early marriage, I do not understand why early marriage is an advantage here. Although Egypt is one of the countries with significant % of early marriage, yet not among the countries with the highest early marriage % . Actually some of them are non Muslim countries. So again the relationship here is not well established.

But tell me why you think that early marriage is an advantage, while the rest of the world is trying to combat it due to its worrying consequences, such as increase of illiterate rate and school drop outs among females, increase of obstetric risk and gynaecological complications, increase of divorce rates, and many many others.

4) Veil and less rape incidence. Although there is no sound data on the number of reported and unreported rape incidences in Egypt, yet there has been unofficial report to UN human Right commission by some human rights organizations and rehabilitation center in Egypt , that indicated that rape incidences in Egypt has noticeably increased. So again their a negative correlation, knowing that the number of veiled women has increased.

5) Women and mobility, I agree partly with suggested relation. In an interview that I personally conducted with women in some areas of the Slum Cairo , some women told us that wearing the veil has facilitated their mobility, they could come a bit later and they do not have to take their younger brother with them an more. They added it did not mean that it reduced the risk of being verbally harassed.

6) Veil and women's image and acceptability. Again I do not agree, as if you can not decide whether a women is attractive from your perspective or not because she is veiled, and therefore you choices are only based on her mental abilities. Besides, what mental abilities if you have a population of more that 65% of its female are illiterate

An interesting piece of a research work which was conducted in El Darb El Ahmar in Cairo, the researcher concluded that there is certain physical characteristics which are behind the male- female attraction, and this varies according to the district. For example in her researched site, men liked more plump women hint hint to all the women who want to attract a man from this area

Final thing, you mentioned that ( All women are Virgin all marriage) what a assertive statement, It is not true and Not all Egyptian women ( veiled or Not) are Virgin before marriage, check the thread like a virgin, we had a some debates.

cheers

.

[This message has been edited by Mooly El Din (edited 25 April 2004).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by AMR the great:
As a result of that, the Muslim society has a less fornication; women are safe in the streets, less rate of rape.
Most women are married in young ages {18 to 21} and all of them are virgins till marriage.
Very peaceful and calm society and women are respected more here, for their minds not for their beauty as in other societies.

Now, what do you think is the veil a right thing or u can consider it as a cage for women?[/B]

---

-------------------
Amr, one last comments and promise I will shut up and please do not take any offence, Do not want any addition to my long fan list on ES

Every time I read a post on ES, regarding a women coming to Egypt and asking for people to meet, you are one of the regular 5 who usually answer such posts.

I was wondering, if you have you so fixed and strong-minded views and clear understanding of why veiled women are special, and why Egypt is a better place because the women there do behave and obey the nature ( according to your posted views), so why do you respond to these women/postings and why you want to know them, is it to give you a perspective on the (Different Other) so you can appreciate the Egyptian Veiled women more ? Just a question

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mooly El Din:
.........................

In the Quarn, as after as I know, there was is no mention that Adam of Eve were ashamed of being naked, there were rather so scared of God punishment after they disobeyed him/her .

---

Mooly, i'll make this very breif, don't have much time these days so anyway, mmmm here's part of Surat "Al A'raf"
7:22 when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies." to me this meant they were ashamed of being naked, anyone who can read a different meaning into this verse please feel free to correct me.

One more thing Mooly, you referred to God as "he/she" are you serious? in Quoran God is refered to as "He", in the old and the new Testament "He" is referred to as "The Lord"....i.e in all three religions God is acknowledged as "He"....just a thought.

Have a nice day

quote:

---

Originally posted by jaguar:
Rimo, can't imagine it could be 501 Levis

---

Jaguar, a freind told me that after the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait , she saw in "wekalet el bala7" hmmmm such outragoeus peices of clothes (don't want to elabrate) they were advertised as "The blablabla that conquered Saddam" I have no doubt that this particular Jeans would've been one of them. Don't think it was a Levis 501, if I'd have stared any harder at that girl I would've been arrested for sexual harrassment.

And yes definitely God is NOT a HE. In fact God is not even a she. In Islam God was not born and doesn't give birth, he (oops :-)) doesn't have a gender. But because most languages do have gender you have to pick one or the other. If you believe God is a male then you have serious problems. But if you were just saying that writing he/she over and over again is supercilious then I agree.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rimo:
Mooly, i'll make this very breif, don't have much time these days so anyway, mmmm here's part of Surat "Al A'raf"
7:22 when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies." to me this meant they were ashamed of being naked, anyone who can read a different meaning into this verse please feel free to correct me.

One more thing Mooly, you referred to God as "he/she" are you serious? in Quoran God is refered to as "He", in the old and the new Testament "He" is referred to as "The Lord"....i.e in all three religions God is acknowledged as "He"....just a thought.

Have a nice day

[This message has been edited by Rimo (edited 25 April 2004).]

---

--------------
Dear Rimo, nice to hear from you again, was wondering where were you?

In my views, the shame was related to the fact that they disobeyed GOD, and this is how I interrupted Surat "Al A'raf" . In the old and new testimonies, some parts read like, it is not literate as I am depending on my memory now, (as I tasted from the tree, immediately my eyes were opened and I saw, that I was naked, and I cried bitterly about what I had done. I, however, gathered fig leaves to cover my shame. Because of how Paradise was apportioned, the one half to Adam, and the other to me, all the trees in my half had let fall all their leaves) .So the shame here is not related to being naked , its the shame of disobeying . The nakedness here is a symbol of loss, and the shame is due to great feeling of loss as a result of disobeying. As for Eve immediate reaction, looking for the fig leaves to be covered, I guess that this would have been the reaction of any one, who after being covered/dressed found him/herself uncovered/undressed, it is more a reaction of being uncomfortable or unused rather than being ashamed.

As for the He/she, I knew it would not have passed being unnoticed, actually for me it is a linguistic matter, I am committed to a more gender friendly language. In all the holly texts, they referred to God as (He), but this is not becasue GOD is a man or that he/she have a defined Gender, but rather because at that time the used languages where Gender unfriendly.

Cheers

quote:

---

Originally posted by AMR the great:
Very peaceful and calm society and women are respected more here, for their minds not for their beauty as in other societies.

---

Amr, have you ever visited "other socities" or how can you make such a statement?

For me and many other Western women living in Egypt the worst thing here is the disrespect that is often shown to women.

I know that certainly not all Egyptian men regard women with disrespect and condemn bad behaviour, but there's a huge percentage of people who don't.

I'm currently on a vacation to Europe and I find it very relaxing that, when walking on the street, I can feel like a person - and not like a sexual object. No guy feels he has the "right" to harrass me, to make offensive remarks or stare at me.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia:
For me and many other Western women living in Egypt the worst thing here is the disrespect that is often shown to women.

I know that certainly not all Egyptian men regard women with disrespect and condemn bad behaviour, but there's a huge percentage of people who don't.

I'm currently on a vacation to Europe and I find it very relaxing that, when walking on the street, I can feel like a person - and not like a sexual object. No guy feels he has the "right" to harrass me, to make offensive remarks or stare at me.

I find that very calm and peaceful.[/B]

---

I agree with you Dalia, I live in Europe, and as an Egyptian women , I find that walking in the street in Europe is far more relaxing and mid free than in Egypt. All my female friends who come to visit me say the same. They say that what they enjoy best here, is the fact that they can walk and not being stuck to their cars all the time like in Egypt.

Egypt have many many great aspects and I have to agree that it is a safe country, no physical harm will occur, but the verbal hassling is just too much. And it is related to how men view women and not because they are Mohajab or not. Men in Egypt , not all of course, feels the liberty to invade women's privacy and has no sense of her own right to enjoy a hassle free walk.

Cheers

I was not referring to gender , but if God referred to Himself repeatedly in Koran as “HE” and in the bible as “He” then if you refer to God as he/she something has seriously gone haywire, THAT is what I meant.

Regarding both your interpretations of the Koran verse, I’ll have to do some readings on my own when I have time, thanks for the detailed reply all the same

Speaking of “linguistics” Mooly, PLEASE let’s not get there, ,,,,,,,,When God in Koran refers to “His Face” His Hand” His “Throne” does that mean that God has a hand with 5 fingres? Like us? Face? and sits on a throne? Some scholars said that no it was symbolic for us humans to understand, others said that if God said His face , Hand, Throne, he really means it and how dare we doubt it, others said that both were right and wrong that Yes God does have a face and hand BUT “Lays Kamethlehe Shay’e” translated “Like Nothing and No one” so please I’d rather not venture into this territory.

I do not agree with you saying (not venture into this territory). At least not you

The greatest minds in the world, are the ones that could question every thing , the ones which are not stopped by human created bounders or barriers to protect old custom, myth or hundred of years old interruptions.

This do not contradict with our faith and believes, the more stronger our faith ..the more we can question and debate it. The more shallow and fragile our faith--- the less we can question and debate it, as we will be scared to shatter its sanctity , destroy its perfection and fade away its halo. In such a process this could happen, but at the end we can/will find our believes stronger and centered around a thought through and powerful convections and built over a sound foundation, that no body's opinion even Amr Khaild could fundamentally change it. ( I am not preaching here, I am talking of a personal experience)

Back to the Subject, it is true that GOD is refereed to in the Quarn as if he/she is Human, and this was a symbolic and a method to simplify the message and bring it closer to the people's mind. If GOD could be like one of us , but still superior, then we can understand and accept more. It is a hypothetical image of GOD. Therefore, GOD is not Human and we are only describing GOD in a human format for simplification, then why this format have to be a male format not female. I think we can choose in a hypothetical sense to imagine GOD as a female or male. In my opinion this was not done in the language of the Quaren, as the Arabic Language as well other languages are not Gender friendly, so now that we can use a more Gender friendly language, then we can refer to GOD as he/She. I do not think that this way of thinking touches the core heart which is the existence of GOD.

Ps I am listening to a CD by Souad Massi, have you heard of her?

Cheers

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mooly El Din:

As for the He/she, ...

---

1-Astaghfaru Allahu Elazeem
2-Testing,Testing..1..2..3 :
http://www.soundofegypt.com/forum/showthread.php?p=55329#post55329

quote:

---

Originally posted by homesick2:

1-Astaghfaru Allahu Elazeem
2-Testing,Testing..1..2..3 :
http://www.soundofegypt.com/forum/showthread.php?p=55329#post55329

Do you not understand what do you mean by your post, scaring me may be?

Instead of saying (Astaghfaru Allahu Elazeem) why you do not debate the concept. There is nothing wrong or against Islam to pose questions and debate.

Any way I learnt my lesson. I am not going to enter in a progressive debate with you regarding Islam, otherwise I will get the
(Kiss my ass) phrase, and to tell you the truth, I can not bare the thought

Cheers

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mooly El Din:
Dear Rimo,

I do not agree with you saying (not venture into this territory). At least not you

The greatest minds in the world, are the ones that could question every thing , the ones which are not stopped by human created bounders or barriers to protect old custom, myth or hundred of years old interruptions.

This do not contradict with our faith and believes, the more stronger our faith ..the more we can question and debate it. The more shallow and fragile our faith--- the less we can question and debate it, as we will be scared to shatter its sanctity , destroy its perfection and fade away its halo. In such a process this could happen, but at the end we can/will find our believes stronger and centered around a thought through and powerful convections and built over a sound foundation, that no body's opinion even Amr Khaild could fundamentally change it. ( I am not preaching here, I am talking of a personal experience)

Back to the Subject, it is true that GOD is refereed to in the Quarn as if he/she is Human, and this was a symbolic and a method to simplify the message and bring it closer to the people's mind. If GOD could be like one of us , but still superior, then we can understand and accept more. It is a hypothetical image of GOD. Therefore, GOD is not Human and we are only describing GOD in a human format for simplification, then why this format have to be a male format not female. I think we can choose in a hypothetical sense to imagine GOD as a female or male. In my opinion this was not done in the language of the Quaren, as the Arabic Language as well other languages are not Gender friendly, so now that we can use a more Gender friendly language, then we can refer to GOD as he/She. I do not think that this way of thinking touches the core heart which is the existence of GOD.

Ps I am listening to a CD by Souad Massi, have you heard of her?

Cheers

---

Sorry Mooly, Greatest Minds in the world will not debate God, a great mind would know its limitations.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rimo:

Sorry Mooly, Greatest Minds in the world will not debate God, a great mind would know its limitations.

One more thing Mooly, to be able to "venture into the territory" of Linguistics (or more specifically 3elm Al Kalam) in Islam you'd have to be really knowledgable about it, otherwise you'd end up doing more harm than good.
Mooly, I find myself very uncomfortable reading words like "boundaries, Myth, etc...." you used in a topic about God....I'm out of here

---

Dear Rimo, please do not be offended, I am sharing with you what I think, you have the right to like or not, debate it or not.

When I said myth, I did not refer to GOD and not Quaran, I was referring to stories around and different interruption of the Quaran. I still think that a great mind should search for knowledge and enlightenment and not to be scared and limited. But it’s a choice and we can have different choices but still be good mates ha

Cheers

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jutta3:
But let me place a question to all here who know the qu'ran so much better than I do: why do you think, there are so many different ways in so many different islamic countries how "being covered" is understood? Take for an extreme example the "Burka" in Afghanistan and the loosely weared scarf which shows most of the hair in Pakistan. Or the headscarf in Turkey which is totally different from the Hijab in Egypt.

---

Hey guys, I am totally confused. Is there any "official" statement to the hijab in general, and the way of tie it on, for all moslem women???

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mooly El Din:

Dear Rimo, please do not be offended, I am sharing with you what I think, you have the right to like or not, debate it or not.

When I said myth, I did not refer to GOD and not Quaran, I was referring to stories around and different interruption of the Quaran. I still think that a great mind should search for knowledge and enlightenment and not to be scared and limited. But it’s a choice and we can have different choices but still be good mates ha

Cheers

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rimo:

Mooly, being easily offended usually reveals a weakness underlying an undeserved arrogance stemming from ignorance, hopefully, I'm none of the above, why I chose to withdraw from this discussion Mooly is because I've been through this 7 years ago,all these discussions, my faith has been tested, I don't care to repeat the experience,,,,
Have a nice day

---

--------------------------------------
Rimo, woow, and of course you are not the above, you are a smart women with a great sense of humor.

I was not debating with you Rimo, I was just explaining why I use the She/he in refereeing to GOD. As you said every one of us has to go through a faith journey and I was not implying that you should go through another one

Hope you have a better morning than mine

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mooly El Din:

Instead of saying (Astaghfaru Allahu Elazeem) why you do not debate the concept. There is nothing wrong or against Islam to pose questions and debate.

---

You and Kimo obviously are knowledgeable, eloquent and very capable of engaging in a debate and getting your point across, why walk this thin line?
Especially in you r case (not Kimo), you have so far persisted in using "He/She" when it ceased to be provacative and now pure ignorant.

God refers to Himself as HE, and we all know Allah Subhanahu Wataala is neither Male Nor Female...but if God referred to Himself as He why would I do otherwise?
At the matter of fact using "He/She" could actually be interpreted as if you are implying He "Subhanhu Wataala" is Human and could be He or She or something in between.

This would all make sense if you do not believe in God or of Different faith.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jutta3:
Hey guys, I am totally confused. Is there any "official" statement to the hijab in general, and the way of tie it on, for all moslem women???

And Kimo, you stated, that there is no verse in no sura which says exactly, that a woman has to cover herself. But where does it come from then?

---

Salaams Jutta3

It does seem a little confusing at first as everybody has their own opinion about this subject and their own interpretation, but isn't that the same about most things in life?

There are no specific rules about how you should tie the hijab, but it should meet the basic criteria of covering the head, neck, and chest if you want to follow the guidelines in the most correct way. The style, colour, and material has not been specified, and so this gives flexibility and allows room for personal preferences to make the decision on how to wear it.

There is no verse that says that a woman should wear a hijab as such, using those specific words, but there are several verses that tell Muslim women to cover themselves and we can learn from the hadith about how the Muslim women Companions put these verses into practice. So we can also refer to them to understand how we are supposed to cover ourselves.

Here are some links I found to some different articles and fatwa (Islamic leagal rulings) related the issue of hijab. You will probably become even more confused after reading them at first, but in time you will start to work out what it the best position for you to take for yourself. As long as you rely on the soundest advice in the end you won't go far wrong, insha Allah. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/4222/womdress.html http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=13998&dgn=4 http://www.islamic-knowledge.com/#Islam Information Page (for this link go to the Muslim Life Section (in the left hand column)/Health - Hygeine/Hijab)

-------------------------------
Homesick2, you have concluded that I am ignorant, but first you did not provide a definition of the term ignorance from your perspective, especially that you said earlier that I am knowledge and articulate. Second you did not provide the logical analytical steps you followed/used to reach such a conclusion. Therefore I dismiss your assumption/conclusion.

I will then debate the hypothesis that you are coward. First let me define the term
"coward". For the purpose of this debate the term coward is being used to define someone who runs from danger (mental or physical), would not place him/herself in a situation of conflict ( mental or physical), and would be reluctant to explore new ideas, concepts, and ideologies as it could cause mental discomfort. (the used definition has been taken from the World Book Dictionary, published by the world book encyclopedia, USA)

Method of testing the hypothesis: analyzing the used phrases in your post

You said in your post I quote (You and Kimo obviously are knowledgeable, eloquent and very capable of engaging in a debate and getting your point across, why walk this thin line?). Your statement indicates the you are reluctant to debate/discuss with knowledgeable and well articulated people, people who are equally/if not more knowledgeable and informative, but might have different perspective on the same issue, thus avioding possible mental conflict. According to the established definition, this suggest that you being coward.

You said in the same post I quote (...but if God referred to Himself as He why would I do otherwise? ) Your statement indicates that you are reluctant to consider any other interpretation, new concepts, hypothesis or theories. You saw that it is written in the Quarn HE, so that it is. In your opinion this is enough , and this is the proof of having faith in GOD and being good Muslim. You do dare to take the risk of validating the given by taking time and energy to think and understand. To ask yourself, what the HE refers to? Does it mean that GOD is a MAN? And if GOD is not a MANN and the use of the human format is for simplification and symbolic, so why GOD is not referred to as WOMEN/ SHE? Is it because the used language is gender unfriendly ? Is there another purpose? Is it because it is a patriarchal society and GOD is powerful, so GOD has to be referred to as a MAN as MAN is more powerful? Did GOD want the religion to be more accepted by the societies at that time, and as these societies were quite gender biased, so GOD used HE/HIM in referring to him/herself? In other words refereeing to GOD as MAN/He is for purposes of institutionalizing the religion. In other words you are reluctant to explore new interpretations and avenues, as this will/might A cause mental discomfort and conflict. So again you are being coward according to the established definition

I herby conclude that you are coward

Cheers

quote:

---

Originally posted by homesick2:

Especially in you r case (not Kimo), you have so far persisted in using "He/She" when it ceased to be provacative

This would all make sense if you do not believe in God or of Different faith.

Is it possible you are getting to Intelligent for your own good?

---

Homesick,

First, I was not trying to be provocative, I wrote a long reply on the issue of the Hijab, and the " He/she " term had been quoted from this reply. Second I am a feminist and I have moral commitment towards my believes, so go and check all my posts as well as my publications, I always use he/she when I refer to someone who could be a man or a women. This was not merely meant to tease and provoke you, you are not that important to me

Second, my believes are not the matter of discussion here, and what I am saying would not make more sense, if I was not a believer or have a different faith than Islam. I would like to quote Raymon who said in another thread "when people feel they are weak ( with no evidence) enough to respond appropriately, they start to discredit the other opinion, by depriving legality … like saying “you are not Egyptian” … “you are an agent” … “you are biased” " and I will add "you are ignorant", "you are not a believer" or "you are not Muslim"!

It is a matter of how we understand, think about and debate/discuss religion ( any religion). I want to quote a discussion that took place with one of my new friends, we said "people seldom discuss and challenge their believes, they can not differentiate between religion as ideology debated by theology scholars, philosophers vs religion as an institution, vs scriptures that are reflection of historical patterns and account of history not always "God's word" vs our own interpretations based on culture, social upbringing, education, intellectual ability and desire to understand the essence as opposed to blindly taking it upon faith alone".

Cheers

Thanks for the quote!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mooly El Din:

"you are not Muslim"

---

You are responding exactly like Raymon and Katrina.(that is NOT a compliment)

I have never wrote that nor implied it.
It has never crossed my mind.

The point is when one discusses racial issues with an African(for example), one should not use the "N" word and if one used it once for whatever reason, "He/She" (Human) should not repeat it once an objection has been raise, otherwise it could be misconstrued as deliberate insult.
Moreover, if both individuals involved in the discussion are African it would seem very strange if one was not sensitive to the use of the "N" word.

My interest here is not actually a religious one , I don't believe religious discussion on a forum like this (not for the sole purpose of disusing Religion) are of any benefit, but I'm more interested in the "Who Are We" question which I raised a while back.

I am interested in how I react compared to others whether it is to a Religious matter, Political or a matter of Ethics.

My instinctive reaction is obviously different than most here, I read Moll's description of Kimo as "tolerant and open-minded" and I wonder what we would call the Sheikh of Azhar if he objected to that so called "Joke".
I read someone's recommendations of the use of the Black Market in Egypt to exchange currency as a lack of Integrity, after all we are suppose to Egypt Lovers.

The link I posted earlier which doesn't seem to work from MS.Explorer but works from other browsers, is a link for an Egyptian Forum I stumble on a while back but never read that much of it, I posted the so called "Joke" and watched the results, They were the complete opposite to here, so can we say they are Intolerant, Closed-Minded and Lack the sense of Humor? Or could it be that they reflect the reaction of the average Egyptian.
Notice how much wiser they were, they objected the use of ALL THREE prophets in that SO CALLED "JOKE".