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Originally posted by Ge Ge:
This is so barbaric.When my Egyptian friend told me this still took place in Egypt I did not believe him.I assume this is so there is not a problem with a daughter "sleeping around", because she would have no sexual feelings. This is a violation of womens rights. It makes me so angry!

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Originally posted by Ge Ge:
This is so barbaric.When my Egyptian friend told me this still took place in Egypt I did not believe him.I assume this is so there is not a problem with a daughter "sleeping around", because she would have no sexual feelings. This is a violation of womens rights. It makes me so angry!

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Circumcision of the female is not a new subject. Early writings testify that this problem was known and discussed by physicians of the Roman Empire. Bryk in 1935 compiled a comprehensive book on the history and practice of male and female circumcision. The 265 references abstracted in his text cover the circumcision of the female from the ancient Egyptian era (approximately 1500 B.C.) to the present day. The value of this procedure in improving function has been accepted by various cultures for the past 3,500 years.

Indications for Circumcision (Also known as Female Gentile Mutilation)
In general terms, the main indications for circumcision are: (1) functional need - lack of ability to have a climax or ability to have one only with considerable difficulty, (2) an anatomic or mechanical factor that needs correction.
When does this problem present itself and become our concern and responsibility as physicians? It is advisable to investigate sexual compatibility if unexplained symptoms of a psychosomatic type are elicited or if the problem of divorce is present. If there is no shyness or embarrassment on the doctor's part and his attitude is correct, the patient is seldom embarrassed. Often a patient appreciates being questioned on this subject because she had thought this might be her problem. If a patient is not sure that she has ever experienced a climax, it is probable that she has not.
Patients with psychosomatic illness and marital problems make up a good portion of all types of medical practice. If these problems are based on abnormal anatomy, and it is corrected, these patients are often permanently cured. This cure is explained by the common origin of the primitive urges and of the subconscious, from which psychosomatic illnesses develop.
Failure to elicit proper history and to examine patients carefully is illustrated by the following case. Mrs. B. G., age 34, had five divorces before coming to my office as a patient. She was found to have a rather severe redundancy and phimosis, and had never experienced a climax. After being circumcised, she remarried the last man she had divorced and has had no further sexual problem. She stated that she "wasted four perfectly good husbands." While having the five marriages and divorces, she had a great number of psychosomatic symptoms and illnesses. During this time she had been examined and treated by a number of physicians. None of them had told her of the severe phimosis and redundancy or suggested its correction. She has had no recurrence of psychosomatic illness since the circumcision five years ago. No tranquilizers, injections or other treatments were used.
A difficult phase of the problem is presented when the wife of a recurrent ulcer patient states, "What difference does it make that I do not enjoy sex life if I do not refuse my husband"?
In the earlier years of married life this form of prostitution is possibly not too harmful. A number of problems will probably develop in time however, because this practice is contrary to our instincts. If a man is legally married to a woman but not "mated" with her, one of four complications will probably develop: (1) a divorce, (2) another woman, (3) excessive use of alcohol or (4) suppression of normal urges with psychosomatic illness.
Two Common Abnormalities
The two common problems that make the highly sensitive area of the clitoris unable to be stimulated are phimosis and redundancy. Sebaceous glands about the clitoris attempt to prevent adhesions of the prepuce to it. This sometimes fails and the clitoris is tightly adherent to the prepuce. This defect is recorded as 1 plus or 25 per cent of the normal surface adherent, to 4 plus or complete coverage. A prepuce for the protection of the clitoris is normal and useful, but if it is excessive and extends past the eminence of clitoris it can prevent contact and is harmful. This excess is also classified from 1 to 4 plus. The greatest amount of redundant prepuce I have observed extended approximately one inch past the clitoris so that it is classified 4 plus. Thus, a 1 plus would represent approximately one-fourth inch of redundant tissue.

female Circumcision is the removal of the excess foreskin for the female,
the ORIGINQL idea is ( as in male Circumcision) to remove the extra skin that hangs out and surrounding the ( could some times cause serious infections), and of course one side effect of this operation is the subsequent loss of the sex drive since this excess skin is very dense with nerves ending that is responsible the sensation and

A quick Sexual Organs Anatomy Lesson :
The female and male sex organs are almost identical anatomically with the very slight difference that the female is flipped inward rather than outwards as in a male,
withen the first 2 months after conception, the human genetile are identical for males and femailes alike, there is the Glens, Epithelial Tag, Coronal , Foreskin, Urethral Fold, Urogential Grove, Lateral buttress (CORPS, OR SHAFT), Labio-scrotal Swelling.
During pregnancy ( from this point forward the unborn baby will start developing based on the Genes it have either as a mail or a female ( well you know < the XY, and the XX chromosomes ) if developing to be a male, the gentile will grow outward to form the penis, Glans pines, Foreskin, Shaft (the body of the penis CORPUS) and Scrotum,
And if it growing to be a female it will grow inward to form Corpus Clitoris, Foreskin, Glen Clitoris, urethral Meatus, Labium Minor, Labium Major, Virginia,(Vaginal Tube)

Both the foreskin and the Glans (Pines or Clitoris) are very sensitive and are very dense with nerves ending (and this is why both normally have a darker color (because the skin is much thinner, and more blood flow in to support all the nerve endings)
You know a circumcised guy always last longer (simply because he has fewer nerves to carry the signal to his brain so his orgasm would come much later)
The problem is in the foreskin, it is covering the Galns and could cause serious infections,
As in male circumcision the foreskin is removed, it results in 2 things, it is cleaner (the chances for infections is dramatically reduced), and (everyone knows, last longer)
In female circumcision < the same rule apply , but with a very high risk of course, the risk of losing most of the sensation and sometimes the loss of the sexual drive all together , and this is normally caused by the excessive removal of the foreskin , with the clitoris itself , and by doing that removing anything that carry the sensation signal to the brain , and of course result in the woman not falling anything at all I have mentioned above that sometimes the operation is preformed to full grownup women to enhance their sex lives and enrich it < not to destroy it as everyone thinks

Now back to history and traditions,
Based on all what I have mentioned before, and mostly not very well understood by locals, and maintain societies, they realized one thing, when a circumcision is preformed for a female, she is less venerable to emotional stress and is not always on heat , and for ancient societies this is a great advantage specially if the husband travels a lot or a soldier, and the circumcised females are more faithful to there husbands , yes I Agree their may be out of ignorance, or naivety, but no one can deny that there is a valid reason for this practice,
The problem is when someone decide that the complete removal of both the clan clitoris and the foreskin is advised , because this is the one thing that will KILL any sexual sensation in the woman .

Enough said, already , there is nothing wrong in the practice itself, it is only how it is preformed and why

Note: I could have included some pictures, but some may find it offending , so I decide to keep them out of the forum, if any one want to see those figures, email me I'll send you the link

wait a minute , I am not saying that to attack you, or accuse you of anything,
I know how strongly you feel about this issue, and of course I understand why, just because you have formed a quick opinion based on emotions, doesn’t mean that everyone else is wrong

what happened to this Somalia celebrity of yours is tragic, but still is not an excuse to prevent people from doing what they think is best for their daughters
Circumspection is a practice that is being preformed for both males and females,
if a little boy was subjected to the circumcisions under similar circumstances like this Somalian MODEL, and end up losing all his sensation in his pines, we will feel saddened and effected by his tragedy, but no one will decide to prevent the practice all together, and no one would say that a parent who decide to have his son circumcised have violated his little boy's rights,
there is a case I remember in the states about one guy who have converted to Judaism and decide to get circumcised, he went to the hospital and decide to have a Jewish doctor perform on him< when he walk up he found that the doctor removed the whole head of his pines, and left him with only the Body, and the operation resulted in him loosing all sensation, and could never reach full friction, the guy afterwards have decided that is inhuman to do such practice, and tried to do something to prevent it from ever being preformed in the states, the result is that everyone laughed at him including the Christian judge ( Christiansen normally don’t get circumcised) who have judged in his favor in the civil lawsuit he had against the doctor who scared him for life

Some people defiantly are subjected to (STUPIDITY, and sometimes negligence) in the circumcision, and serious mistakes could happen that could result in everlasting damaging effect, and those are individual cases, that have to be looked into INDIVEDUALLY,
The solution is not to stop the practice all together, but to educate people about it, and let them take the decision after they know how many things could go wrong , and tell them the serious consequences if the operation was overdone.

All these pratices have pre-Islamic antecedants and are not connected to Semetic Arabs in any way. Both Copts and Muslims in rural areas pratice female circumcision.

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Originally posted by Penny:
Welsafy your reply sounds very 'medical'but it is very odd that anyone medical would think that circumcision controls sex drive in either males or females. I am not a medical person but surely everyone these days knows from basic biology classes that male/female sex drive is driven by their respective hormones. Why else would male prisoners sometimes be given drugs to control testosterone production. Does anyone seriously believe that cutting a woman will reduce her desire to mate at ovulation.

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Personaly I believe a good sex life in marriage is the glue that holds it all together, no it is not the most important thing but without it most marriages soon fall apart or are very vunerable to external relationships/affairs.

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Originally posted by Penny:
Welsafty that is even more shocking than I had previously understood. No wonder so many marriages fail and infidelity rates are so high.

Personaly I believe a good sex life in marriage is the glue that holds it all together, no it is not the most important thing but without it most marriages soon fall apart or are very vunerable to external relationships/affairs.

I know the prevalance of circumcision is declining in the North of Egypt but so sad that rates are still so high in the South.

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totally agree with you about the role of sex in marriage and that it is the glue that hold it together, not the foundation of marriage and it have to be good for the marriage to be strong.

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Originally posted by Ge Ge:
Welsafty, I can assure you I have read many writings on the subject of FGM. But my point is I do not think it is anyones right to cut away a part of their daughters body,and why is this done.As you have not had this done but the Somalian 'celebrity" has surely she is in a better position to know how it feels is she not. People need educating.Cutting away part of what belongs to them will not make someone faithful.It just denies them of a more fulfilled life.Of course I would not know but I think we are born like this for a reason are we not.

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Exactly < we all act upon the extent of our knowledge < you don’t know what is the effect, I don’t know the results, maybe she does,
Then if someone going to lobby against it, let it be her, not me
as I said before, I don’t approve it, but I understand what it is (before I jump to a conclusions) and understand why people do it

I don’t conceder them criminals for doing so, but I will never accept something like that o happen to my daughter, simply because I want her to enjoy her life with her husband

well the last part is this one about

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Of course I would not know but I think we are born like this for a reason are we not.

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Also as the practice results in the cutting through a major vein then there is the possibility of bleeding to death.

It is truly barabaric and my heart bled for all the little girls in my village that were 'unwell' after they had been sliced.

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Originally posted by neelie:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by welsafty:
[B]Ge Ge;
and no one would say that a parent who decide to have his son circumcised have violated his little boy's rights,

I WOULD !!!!!!

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then my point is still valid !!

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Originally posted by welsafty:
neelie;
[b]I am just kidding
I do apreciate your openion and respect it [/B]

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Thankyou.

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Originally posted by welsafty:
do you have an earing ?
iof you do, did you have your ears peirced, and if yes, when ???
oh and by the way GOD/ALLAH/Jahova are the same, they are difrent name to the same intity. (the ONe, the allmighty, the creator)
[This message has been edited by welsafty (edited 14 August 2004).]

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I know GOD/ALLAH/JEVHOVAH ARE SAME. We all Christians, Muslims and Jews take our religon from the decendents of Abraham. Please don't try to educate me as regards Religon. 2004 years of brainwashing has taken care of those needs thankyou.

Yes Welsafty, my ears are pierced, I chose to have them pierced myself when I was old enough to make the decision. I would have been very annoyed had my parents inflicted piercings on me as a child. It is a form of abuse. But haveing said that the holes in my earlobes would have healed up if I had let them --- I couldn't have grown a new clitoris.

[This message has been edited by neelie (edited 14 August 2004).]

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Originally posted by welsafty:
what is claptrap ?

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How can anyone compare a clitidorectomy with pierced ears. Only a man could be so blase about women's anatomy.

There is nothing anywhere in any scriptures that supports it. It is a barabric practice which unfortunately is encouraged by ignorant men and perpetuated by ignorant women.

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Originally posted by wilsonkick:
P***** my husband off too, as he wanted his son to be circumcised also!

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soo !! what happend to your husband ?? is he still alive ??

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Originally posted by cappa:
hellooo..we're talkin abt FEMALE circumcision, its entirely diffnt anatomy than males....

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No we are talking about female genital mutilation. The name says it all

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Originally posted by akshar:
No we are talking about female genital mutilation. The name says it all

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Originally posted by akshar:

No we are talking about female genital mutilation. The name says it all

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Originally posted by Ge Ge:
Mr Love How would your Somalian friend know if sex was better after being circumcised. Surely the process of circumcision is carried out so that there is no sex before marriage so if she was not married how would she know and if she did, well there you go!

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Originally posted by cappa:
this process doesn't prevent sex before marriage...no proof of that wt so ever.
this invasive procedure is just another way to undermine the female and "keep her in her place" ...its suppose to make sex really painful and prevent the experience of sexual pleasure.. with the risk of infections and other complications this procedure has numerous affects on the psychology of the female also..its a human rights violation..

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Originally posted by Ge Ge:
In the book Desert Flower which described the proceedure FGM (made me feel quite sick) Waris Deiry was left with a pin hole so that her husband would know she was a virgin.She suffered from the age of five with infections and when she was 18 she was operated in England to remove infected tissue. She stated that she can only make love with her heart.Please read the book if you can get hold of it,it is so informative

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I have to disagree, this is one of the worst books that were written on the issue, it is more of autobiography and is so emotional and lacks substantial facts and evidence. I would recommend to read one of a recent publication called Female " circumcision" in Africa, culture , controversy and Change. It is will give you a more insight and you can understand the practice from cultural and anthropological perspective. Another book called " cutting the rose" a informatoive book in a very simplified format.

cheers

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Originally posted by Mooly El Din:
I have to disagree, this is one of the worst books that were written on the issue, it is more of autobiography and is so emotional and lacks substantial facts and evidence. I would recommend to read one of a recent publication called Female " circumcision" in Africa, culture , controversy and Change. It is will give you a more insight and you can understand the practice from cultural and anthropological perspective. Another book called " cutting the rose" a informatoive book in a very simplified format.

cheers

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Originally posted by maryph:
To lear more about FMG, I suggest reading "Prisoners of Ritual; An Odyssey into Female Genital Circumcision in Africa" by Hanny Lightfoot-Klein. The New York Times Book Review states that this book is "solid ethnographic research focused on the enigma of female genital mutilation" I found the book to be informative, educational and it presents this sensitive culturally based tradition in a non-judgemental manner.

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This is also a very good book

The otehr book that I mentioned is a edited volume, by Bettina Shell _Duncan and Ylva Hernlund. Lynne Rienner publishers