Group: Behind the Mashrabiya
Posts: 146
Joined: June 2003 Posted: Oct. 22 2004,12:11

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One Love Scenario

You are in your comfortable little rut. You are married for all the best possible reasons. You have a family. You feel a duty and responsiblity towards them. You love your wife but it is not the stuff of songs, movies and dreams.

Then along comes the woman of your dreams. OMG she is wonderful, everything you ever fantasied about. You love her to the end of the earth and back. You want her so much. She is everything that is wrong for you, not the same religion, culture, class, age. Everything is against it but love.

You don't want to break up your marriage, your wife could never give you what this other woman could. she hasn't the same background. You are completely torn.

If you are from the West you would probably have an affair, eventually get found out your marriage would break up, your children would be hurt. Eventually you would break up with this women of your dreams because there are things she can't give you.

Well not if you are a Muslim. You can have both of them. They provide different things in your life and you love both of them but in very different ways.

Another Love Scenario

You meet the woman of your dreams. OMG she is wonderful, everything you ever fantasied about. You love her to the end of the earth and back. You want her so much. She is everything that is wrong for you, not the same religion, culture, class, age. Everything is against it but love.

Your parents go mad, they want you to marry someone from your own background. You are expected to marry a cousin and carry on the family line. You are a dutiful son. You want to please everyone but you love this woman.

In a non Muslim culture you end up estranged from your parents and your community and probably your country. Living an artificail life in another place. Always hurt that you did this to your parents. But how can you live without the woman of your dreams.

In a Muslim culture it is don't worry Mum and Dad bring on the bride. I can please everyone.

These are two scenarios I actually know about. The first I know about with about 8 women and the second with 2. there is love in spades

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mai:

for any body. we are here to answer any of your questions about Islam rules to carify your image about it...
.M.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by trouble101:
Well not if you are a Muslim. You can have both of them. They provide different things in your life and you love both of them but in very different ways.

WRONG JANE I WAIT UR REPLY... the 2 wifes must be treated the same. This is very incorrect Islamic view. But maybe u not muslim or dont beleve Islam. Then u live in sin

---

If you post on the original thread in EgyptMad, then I will answer you.

quote:

---

Originally posted by trouble101:
Well not if you are a Muslim. You can have both of them. They provide different things in your life and you love both of them but in very different ways.

WRONG JANE I WAIT UR REPLY... the 2 wifes must be treated the same. This is very incorrect Islamic view. But maybe u not muslim or dont beleve Islam. Then u live in sin

---

So you're saying anyone who doesn't follow Islam is living in sin. What a bigot.

Troubles if you don't like it then go get the law changed and stop droaning on here, you are boring us.

You forgot to say: "If you are from the West and a bad person you would..."

quote:

---

Originally posted by trouble101:

only want to say to Darkeyes/Nilewatcher/Exptcai/Stacia/Sonomod.
MAKE UR MIND UP.. U POST ON ALL 5 NAMES. MAYBE MORE. I AM NOT DUMB. I READ WELL...
so stop saying one thing and then exact oppisite.
And if anyone is bigot that is U Darkeyes and all names.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by hassancheb:
...But talking in general, you should not make these types of statements with such authority, as some reading it may be misguided and misinterpret islam, as if its not enough of that going on.

Upon first reading this statement, if I was not well versed in islam, I would think that you are claiming that islam gives a man with a "wondering eye" the moral justification to take another woman for "lustful" reasons. And its not true. It can also mislead people to beleive that islam encourages marriage to your cousins, which is also not true. Thats some villager lifestyle and has nothing to do with islam.

I would just kindly ask that you choose your words carefully, and let it be known that you are giving your "opinion" as you are not muslim and not an authoritive to make such misguiding blanket statements based on lifestyles in your upper egyptian village where arranged marriages to relatives may still be the norm and tradition.

But dont confuse village bedoin type lifestyles with islamic lifestyles, they are not two and the same.

---

As we are being pedantic here I just wanted to point out that although Islam does not encourage marriage between cousins or men to marry additional wives because they are attracted to them, it does permit these things as long as the proper procedure is carried out and the people are offered their rights. The Prophet himself married women he saw and was attracted to; he is our model for the correct procedures to be followed in all things, including polygyny in all its aspects, except the number of wives he married. Allah gave him special permission for this.

quote:

---

Originally posted by hassancheb:
Dear Jane

I'm not here to judge you or your lifestyle, because its not my business.

But talking in general, you should not make these types of statements with such authority, as some reading it may be misguided and misinterpret islam, as if its not enough of that going on.

Upon first reading this statement, if I was not well versed in islam, I would think that you are claiming that islam gives a man with a "wondering eye" the moral justification to take another woman for "lustful" reasons. And its not true. It can also mislead people to beleive that islam encourages marriage to your cousins, which is also not true. Thats some villager lifestyle and has nothing to do with islam.

I would just kindly ask that you choose your words carefully, and let it be known that you are giving your "opinion" as you are not muslim and not an authoritive to make such misguiding blanket statements based on lifestyles in your upper egyptian village where arranged marriages to relatives may still be the norm and tradition.

But dont confuse village bedoin type lifestyles with islamic lifestyles, they are not two and the same.

---

Totally agree with you Hassencheb.

Trouble101 QUOTE This was started because of war and too many women w/o any men to go around. Or if the woman cannot have children.
Muslim men were not given the RIGHT to "Have it both ways" as you quote. Lady, you are fuckin CRAZY in YOUR BELIEFS.

Jane was a widow.

quote:

---

Originally posted by newcomer:
Assalamu alaykum hassancheb!

As we are being pedantic here I just wanted to point out that although Islam does not encourage marriage between cousins or men to marry additional wives because they are attracted to them, it does permit these things as long as the proper procedure is carried out and the people are offered their rights. The Prophet himself married women he saw and was attracted to; he is our model for the correct procedures to be followed in all things, including polygyny in all its aspects, except the number of wives he married. Allah gave him special permission for this.

---

Walaykum asalam Newcomer,

With all due respect, if you have a clear understanding of Islam, then you should know under what circumstances a man should take another wife, and just because marriage of cousins is "permitted" doesnt mean that ALL muslims are practicing this village type procedure for marriage.

We must be careful not to tread on such dangerous grounds when making blanket statements with such authority. Jane has written numerous public articles on sites like Tour Egypt, she is highly respected (by some) and looked upon as somewhat of an authoritive figure when making such statements, I'm just asking that she choose her words carefully.

Please dont use the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) to make your defense against what I've stated you're stepping on millions of toes if you're insinuating the prophet married women for their attractiveness. Its bad enough that a group of evangelist christians in the USA are doing everything in their power to try to demonize the Prophet (SAW) and discredit islam, we dont need so-called supporters of islam to give them more ammunition. I'm sure Jane didnt mean any ill attempt when making those statements, thats why I'm just "asking" her to choose her words carefully.

For instance, instead of saying "Muslim" culture, maybe she should have said "egyptian" culture or more specifically "west bank Luxor village culture", I hope you get my point.

I live in America, and a group of christians are trying to paint Muhammad (SAW) as some womanizing polygamist/pedophile and a prophet of violence. You dont have to live with the scrutiny of having to constantly defend your beliefs, so you cant imagine what we encounter on a day to day basis, when misinformation is "innocently" spread.

You should know that everything the Prophet did including his multiple marriages were for the sake of Islam and spreading islam, his wives were all used in his mission, and he performed his religious obligations to care for widows of friends that died fighting for Islam. He DID NOT go around marrying every woman he found "attractive" and use islam to justify it. So please get it right, and dont paint our dear humble prophet to be some womanizer. If I misread yor statement, then I apologize in advance.

[This message has been edited by hassancheb (edited 29 December 2004).]

I thank you for your apology as you did misunderstand my post and as you don’t know the details about my background it is safer not to make assumptions about what I have or haven’t done, and whether or not I have had to defend my beliefs. I didn’t make my post to get into a discussion about another board member, if you have read any of my previous posts you will know that is not my style; I merely made the post to make a couple of comments on what you had said.

In whatever situation we are in we should always make sure that we defend Islam by telling the truth about it and not adjust it to what we would like or what is politically correct. There will always be some people who want to twist the truth to suit their own agenda, all we can do is explain Islam in the best way that we can and leave it up to Allah to protect the religion. I won’t take an apologist role and make Islam seem as if it is something it is not, or try to soften it. As a speaker who was giving a talk once said: “This is what Islam says, if you like it you are welcome; but if you don’t like it, don’t try to change it!”

When we are discussing Islam and saying what is allowed and what is not we should always be prepared to give evidences for what we are saying, and as the two main sources of evidence for any Islamic rulings are the Qur’an and the Prophet’s Sunnah, that was why I gave the example that I did and didn’t just state a personal opinion. I was not inferring that the Prophet was a womanizer if you read my post again, I just said that he “married women he saw and was attracted to”, meaning that one of the factors, but not the only factor, he used to chose his wives was whether or not he found the woman attractive, I was not implying that he married every woman he saw and found attractive! There is a Hadith relating that a woman came and offered herself to him as a wife, but that he didn’t accept her offer and instead helped her to find another husband. So he obviously wasn’t a womanizer or he would have taken her up on her offer. There are also Hadith showing that he advised the Companions to look at the women they were intending to marry to make sure that they liked their looks.

I don’t intend to get into yet another discussion about polygyny on this board as it’s been done to death, but I have studied this subject in some depth and discussed it with many scholars and this is what I learned: it was around before Islam; Islam came to limit it not to institute it for any specific reason; the only criteria set by the Qur’an for it is that any wives should be treated fairly, and the Hadith give more details about how this should be done. There is no mention in the Qur’an and Hadith of any circumstances under which a man “should” take another wife, it is never seen as an obligation, just a permission, and no criteria were set by the Qur’an and Sunnah for the permission either, other than what I mentioned above. The ‘criteria’ that people talk about are based on scholars’ opinions and, as you know, this does not make them obligatory or definitive.

quote:

---

Originally posted by hassancheb:
Walaykum asalam Newcomer,

I live in America, and a group of christians are trying to paint Muhammad (SAW) as some womanizing polygamist/pedophile and a prophet of violence.

---

An American here -- sorry about that group(s) of *Christians.* To me, they are not true Christians. Maligning the Prophet Muhammad is *not* a good Christian thing to do. Those people are just scary.

And for what it's worth, the State of Maryland allows marriage between first cousins as well. So it's not just an Egyptian thing. :-) I'm sure there are several American states, mostly southern, that allow this practice still. Whether people do it or not? That's a different question.

quote:

---

Originally posted by hassancheb:
Walaykum asalam Newcomer,

With all due respect, if you have a clear understanding of Islam, then you should know under what circumstances a man should take another wife, and just because marriage of cousins is "permitted" doesnt mean that ALL muslims are practicing this village type procedure for marriage.

We must be careful not to tread on such dangerous grounds when making blanket statements with such authority. Jane has written numerous public articles on sites like Tour Egypt, she is highly respected (by some) and looked upon as somewhat of an authoritive figure when making such statements, I'm just asking that she choose her words carefully.

Please dont use the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) to make your defense against what I've stated you're stepping on millions of toes if you're insinuating the prophet married women for their attractiveness. Its bad enough that a group of evangelist christians in the USA are doing everything in their power to try to demonize the Prophet (SAW) and discredit islam, we dont need so-called supporters of islam to give them more ammunition. I'm sure Jane didnt mean any ill attempt when making those statements, thats why I'm just "asking" her to choose her words carefully.

For instance, instead of saying "Muslim" culture, maybe she should have said "egyptian" culture or more specifically "west bank Luxor village culture", I hope you get my point.

I live in America, and a group of christians are trying to paint Muhammad (SAW) as some womanizing polygamist/pedophile and a prophet of violence. You dont have to live with the scrutiny of having to constantly defend your beliefs, so you cant imagine what we encounter on a day to day basis, when misinformation is "innocently" spread.

You should know that everything the Prophet did including his multiple marriages were for the sake of Islam and spreading islam, his wives were all used in his mission, and he performed his religious obligations to care for widows of friends that died fighting for Islam. He DID NOT go around marrying every woman he found "attractive" and use islam to justify it. So please get it right, and dont paint our dear humble prophet to be some womanizer. If I misread yor statement, then I apologize in advance.

[This message has been edited by hassancheb (edited 29 December 2004).]

[This message has been edited by hassancheb (edited 29 December 2004).]

---

Some people forget how the prophet(PBUH) was related to his wife Zainab and how Ali (RA) was related to his wife Fatima (RA)

I thank you for your apology as you did misunderstand my post and as you don’t know the details about my background it is safer not to make assumptions about what I have or haven’t done, and whether or not I have had to defend my beliefs. I didn’t make my post to get into a discussion about another board member, if you have read any of my previous posts you will know that is not my style; I merely made the post to make a couple of comments on what you had said.

Firstly this is not a discussion about Jane's life, I commented on her statements, and you are commenting on my statements, same difference! Secondly,I havent made any assuption about what you have done, I was commenting on this statement of you made above "The Prophet himself married women he saw and was attracted to; he is our model for the correct procedures to be followed in all things" and I expected you to come back and clarify this statement, but since you didnt there was no point in me apologizing, as you are also giving misleading information. So I challenge you to quote the Hadith or Koranic verse where it states the prophet did this to clarify yourself, May Allah guide you. And I will repeat the Prophet (SAW) did not just go around marrying women he found attractive, EVERYTHING HE DID WAS FOR THE SAKE OF ISLAM. And I will break each one of his marraiges down in the next post. Men may marry women in any religion they find "attractive" attractiveness is a relative term, and beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, but this is not a justification for taking "another" wife-to have your cake and eat it! Allowing your relatives to arrange your marriage is traditional not religious, and you should have chosen the "woman of your dreams" from the beginning, Beauty is skin deep and will fade over time, piety is more solid to a lasting marriage.
In whatever situation we are in we should always make sure that we defend Islam by telling the truth about it and not adjust it to what we would like or what is politically correct. There will always be some people who want to twist the truth to suit their own agenda, all we can do is explain Islam in the best way that we can and leave it up to Allah to protect the religion. I won’t take an apologist role and make Islam seem as if it is something it is not, or try to soften it. As a speaker who was giving a talk once said: “This is what Islam says, if you like it you are welcome; but if you don’t like it, don’t try to change it!”

Thats my whole point, people should not try to use islam to justify their moral positions in a polygamist marriage, polygamy is legal in Egypt and that should be enough. As for the rest of your statement I never apologized to anyone for being a muslim for the past 25 years, but I will defend my beliefs and try to "suggest" to anyone writing misleading information to clarify themselves. No one is asking you to "soften" islam, I pray that Allah guides you in the right direction for the statement you made about our dear Prophet (SAW). There is a hadith is book 8 where the prophet is "quoted" as saying you may marry women for their beauty, but now where in the Hadith, Koran or biography of the Prophet(SAW) did he himself admit to marrying a woman for her beauty (attractivesness) You need to be careful when making statements about the Prophet(SAW0 himself! Or be prepared to back up such claims with true verses and not what you heard some "scholar" repeat.

When we are discussing Islam and saying what is allowed and what is not we should always be prepared to give evidences for what we are saying, and as the two main sources of evidence for any Islamic rulings are the Qur’an and the Prophet’s Sunnah, that was why I gave the example that I did and didn’t just state a personal opinion. I was not inferring that the Prophet was a womanizer if you read my post again, I just said that he “married women he saw and was attracted to”, meaning that one of the factors, but not the only factor, he used to chose his wives was whether or not he found the woman attractive, I was not implying that he married every woman he saw and found attractive! There is a Hadith relating that a woman came and offered herself to him as a wife, but that he didn’t accept her offer and instead helped her to find another husband. So he obviously wasn’t a womanizer or he would have taken her up on her offer. There are also Hadith showing that he advised the Companions to look at the women they were intending to marry to make sure that they liked their looks.

I would like for you to point out the "sources" where it says the Prophet himself married women because he was simply "attracted" to them!

I don’t intend to get into yet another discussion about polygyny on this board as it’s been done to death, but I have studied this subject in some depth and discussed it with many scholars and this is what I learned: it was around before Islam; Islam came to limit it not to institute it for any specific reason; the only criteria set by the Qur’an for it is that any wives should be treated fairly, and the Hadith give more details about how this should be done. There is no mention in the Qur’an and Hadith of any circumstances under which a man “should” take another wife, it is never seen as an obligation, just a permission, and no criteria were set by the Qur’an and Sunnah for the permission either, other than what I mentioned above. The ‘criteria’ that people talk about are based on scholars’ opinions and, as you know, this does not make them obligatory or definitive.

Well why did you get into this discussion knowing full well it was partially about polygamy, you're contradicting yourself. And as always I hear Pro-polygamist women citing the first half of the scripture which states "take,2,3, or 4 as long as you can treat them fairly" and always "conventiently" leaving out the rest of the same scripture which clearly states "but if you fear that you will not do justice by them, then marry only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper... So you are "encouraged to marry only one" and just "permitted" to marry up to four, huge difference! Allah is all knowing and must have foreseen that there would be "abusers" of this priviledge, and guided the Prophet to add this verse just for those people, as rarely can a man be fair to more than one wife, as no two women are the same, as whats fair to one, is not necessarily fair to the others, some women are more needy than others."

I mentioned that Islam permits marriage to cousins, as it also permits polygyny, to clarify your comment that although it does not encourage either of these matters, it does allow them. And although these two practices may be more common in rural areas, it cannot be denied that they are also practiced by many people in cities too.

Islam does not encourage marriage to cousins, relatives do, that was my statement, so you are not clarifying anything I said. You may want to clarify Janes statements "Your parents go mad, they want you to marry someone from your own background. You are expected to marry a cousin and carry on the family line. You are a dutiful son. You want to please everyone but you love this woman. In a Muslim culture it is don't worry Mum and Dad bring on the bride. I can please everyone...Unless you can show me somewhere in the Koran where it requires "muslims" to carry on the family line.
Furthermore, Islam tells you who you are "forbidden" to marry, it doesn't "encourage" anything but pious women! Surah 4:19 " You are forbidden to take a woman against her will", Surrah 4:22 " You may not marry a woman your father has married", Surrah 4:25 "Marry the free "believing " women amongst you, they should not be "not be lustful" or "loose of conduct"
As for relatives, the Koran states who you are "forbidden" to marry, not who you are "encouraged" to marry, anyone not on this list is "permitted" but that does not mean this practice is "encouraged" so wording is everything. Surrah 4:23 "Forbidden to you are your mothers and your daughters and your sisters and your paternal aunts and your maternal aunts and brothers' daughters and sisters' daughters(neices) and your mothers that have suckled you and your foster-sisters and mothers of your wives and your step-daughters who are in your guardianship, (born) of your wives to whom you have gone in, but if you have not gone in to them, there is no blame on you (in marrying them), and the wives of your sons who are of your own loins and that you should have two sisters together"

There is nothing in the Koran or biography of the Prophet that states he married any woman because they were "attractive" , the wife even mentioned as being attractive is Khadijah, and they were married "before" he was called as a Prophet. As the hadiths states you are "permitted" to marry a woman for her beauty, status, or wealth, but you are "encourged" to marry her for her piety.

Thank you for taking time to make such a lengthy response to what I said although you could have saved yourself some time if you had read what I written properly and not tried to argue against things that you seemed to be implying that you thought I had written.

The reason I commented on your post and not Jane’s was that her post was posted in another forum in October and yours was posted here this month. After making further comments on her post you said to me: “…I hope you get my point” indicating that you were addressing your comments about Jane’s post to me, which was why I clarified that I did not get involved in such discussions.
And your comment: “You dont have to live with the scrutiny of having to constantly defend your beliefs, so you cant imagine what we encounter on a day to day basis, when misinformation is "innocently" spread” seemed very much like an assumption of what I had done/have to do, hence my comment.

a•pol•o•gist noun
A person who argues in defense or justification of something, such as a doctrine, a policy, or an institution. It is usually used for someone who “soften” what they are defending.

As the last part if your message wasn’t writing in response to what I had written, I will just ask you to re-read what I actually did write.

The information you gave about the Prophet’s wives did not give any authenticated texts for the reasons he married them, all you did was to give some information about their background and an assumption from that, or one of the consequences of the marriage, as to why he married them. Why did he choose to marry those women out all the other Muslim woman that were without husbands and eligible for marriage at the time? I think if you read the Hadith below this will give you an indication the facts that: "The Prophet himself married women he saw and was attracted to; he is our model for the correct procedures to be followed in all things" and that: “…one of the factors, but not the only factor, he used to chose his wives was whether or not he found the woman attractive…” (bearing in mind as you said that attractiveness is in the eye of the beholder and also that people can find others "attractive" for reasons other than sexual reasons.):

Muslim: Book 29, Number 3920:
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
Juwayriyyah, daughter of al-Harith ibn al-Mustaliq, fell to the lot of Thabit ibn Qays ibn Shammas, or to her cousin. She entered into an agreement to purchase her freedom. She was a very beautiful woman, most attractive to the eye.
Aisha said: She then came to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) asking him for the purchase of her freedom. When she was standing at the door, I looked at her with disapproval. I realised that the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) would look at her in the same way that I had looked.
She said: Apostle of Allah, I am Juwayriyyah, daughter of al-Harith, and something has happened to me, which is not hidden from you. I have fallen to the lot of Thabit ibn Qays ibn Shammas, and I have entered into an agreement to purchase of my freedom. I have come to you to seek assistance for the purchase of my freedom.
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Are you inclined to that which is better? She asked: What is that, Apostle of Allah? He replied: I shall pay the price of your freedom on your behalf, and I shall marry you.
She said: I shall do this. She (Aisha) said: The people then heard that the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) had married Juwayriyyah. They released the captives in their possession and set them free, and said: They are the relatives of the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) by marriage. We did not see any woman greater than Juwayriyyah who brought blessings to her people. One hundred families of Banu al-Mustaliq were set free on account of her.

Bukhari: Volume 1, Book 8, Number 367:
…We conquered Khaibar, took the captives, and the booty was collected. Dihya came and said, 'O Allah's Prophet! Give me a slave girl from the captives.' The Prophet said, 'Go and take any slave girl.' He took Safiya bint Huyai. A man came to the Prophet and said, 'O Allah's Apostles! You gave Safiya bint Huyai to Dihya and she is the chief mistress of the tribes of Quraiza and An-Nadir and she befits none but you.' So the Prophet said, 'Bring him along with her.' So Dihya came with her and when the Prophet saw her, he said to Dihya, 'Take any slave girl other than her from the captives.' Anas added: The Prophet then manumitted her and married her."

quote:

---

Originally posted by Snoozin:
And for what it's worth, the State of Maryland allows marriage between first cousins as well. So it's not just an Egyptian thing. :-) I'm sure there are several American states, mostly southern, that allow this practice still. Whether people do it or not? That's a different question.

---

Few people know that roughly half of the U.S. states allow marriage between cousins. And, no, they are NOT mostly southern. It is rare but happened. One of the TV news shows did a whole program on it a couple of months ago. And there is nothing in the Bible against polygamy. That's a manmade law. Some fundamentalists misinterpret that.

quote:

---

Why did he choose to marry those women out all the other Muslim woman that were without husbands and eligible for marriage at the time?

---

quote:

---

"The Prophet himself married women he saw and was attracted to; he is our model for the correct procedures to be followed in all things" and that: “…one of the factors, but not the only factor, he used to chose his wives was whether or not he found the woman attractive…”

---

So Dihya came with her and when the Prophet saw her, he said to Dihya, 'Take any slave girl other than her from the captives
I dont see where stating "the Prophet saw her" could be summarized to "he saw and was attracted to"..again what He did was for the sake of Islam, the "chief mistress among her tribe" shows her influence amongst other captives
Bukhari: Volume 4, Book 52, Number 143:
…Then we reached Khaibar; and when Allah enabled him to conquer the Fort (of Khaibar), the beauty of Safiya bint Huyai bin Akhtab was described to him. Her husband had been killed while she was a bride. So Allah's Apostle selected her for himself and took her along with him till we reached a place called Sad-AsSahba,' where her menses were over and he took her for his wife.

And here I can see that you were desperate to prove yourself as you searched the book about the "Jihad" looking for statements of beauty, when the fact is the Jihad is a holy war between pagans and followers of the Prophet. Safiyah was a captive, her husband was killed during the jihad, they were fighting for the cause of islam, not on a mission searching for beautiful women to capture! As far as the "the correct procedures for us to follow" many muslims know that the Prophet was a messenger of Peace, and encourage releasing captives (slaves) who accepted islam, and this is the example they should follow, NOT searching for "attractive" women to capture.

It was written down in one of the 3OO books written by Muhyi-din Ibn Arabi some time just after ll65 AD was was in fact The Seal of Muhammedan Sainthood which was revealed to him later in Mecca.

In the Islamic Tradition, you cant actually get any higher than this. This is the equivalent of the Catholic Pope, and he, of course, was the most famous of them all.

Of course, in your usual tradition, you have completely and utterly rubbished him, just like you rubbish the Koran.

quote:

---

Originally posted by sokarya_686@hotmail.com:
Hello Sara, I thought you would say something like that so I made quite sure of my facts first.

It was written down in one of the 3OO books written by Muhyi-din Ibn Arabi some time just after ll65 AD was was in fact The Seal of Muhammedan Sainthood which was revealed to him later in Mecca.

In the Islamic Tradition, you cant actually get any higher than this. This is the equivalent of the Catholic Pope, and he, of course, was the most famous of them all.

Of course, in your usual tradition, you have completely and utterly rubbished him, just like you rubbish the Koran.

Charlie.

---

Your facts, Charly your facts.
They are completly ruuubish and I believe that this Muhyi soandso is one of your Shiateacherimagination.
Your facts are faced - completly !
And who told you "Mohammedans Sainthood"? Heself told everybody, that he is NOT 'saint'
except Allah and his message.
So, your teachers are rubbish.

Let this catholic pope out of discussion or I am afraid I am getting short a dirty language.

I am afraid of my god and I would never rubbish his truth !
I am 'working' for paradise .

Sara

I must admit that I am finding this discussion difficult as you seem to be intent on twisting my words and giving them meanings that were never intended; quoting things as if they are my words and then arguing against them when I never wrote the sentences that you are quoting; making assumptions about my feelings, intentions, and methodology; explaining simple Islamic concepts as if you think that I have no understanding of my deen; and repeating yourself ad nauseum as if you think that I didn’t see your comments the first time !!!

Asking a rhetorical question does not mean that I “question (have uncertainty or doubt about) the manner in which the Prophet did what he did”, nor do I find it “questionable (of dubious morality or respectability)” it merely indicated that I was trying to look for the answer from the sources about why he married the women he married to answer your “challenge you to quote the Hadith or Koranic verse where it states the prophet did this to clarify yourself”. I have made no assumptions about why he married his wives, it was you in fact that did that in your list of “The wives of the Prophet and reasons he married them”. I merely pointed to some Hadith that indicated that “…one of the factors, but not the only factor, he used to chose his wives was whether or not he found the woman attractive… (bearing in mind as you said that attractiveness is in the eye of the beholder and also that people can find others "attractive" for reasons other than sexual reasons.)” as this aspect was one of those mentioned by the authors of the Hadith who were closer to the Prophet to be able to know his feelings and thoughts than either of us. Please stop twisting my words or making assumptions about what I assume/think.

I am also not quite certain what you mean about me "womanizing" the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), but I guess you intended to say that you thought I was “making him out to be a womanizer”. That is the last thing on my mind as that is certainly not how I see him, although that is what you seem to be reading into anything I write, because I have dared to say something that indicates that he was a human being, a man who might have been inclined to one woman over another because he found them more attractive. I accept that the Prophet was a human being, and that he was a man created with normal human emotions and desires, and I find it sad that you seem to want to see him as a man devoid of these feelings, who only did things for altruistic reasons and gained no pleasure from his relationships with his wives. [“Say (O Muhammad): "I am only a man like you. It has been inspired to me that your God is One God.” (Kahf 19: 110) He was not an angel or a mythical creature that didn’t respond in normal human ways, and this to me is one of the things that made him so great, that despite having all the normal human weaknesses and emotions he was able to give us the best model of how to control them and put them to the best use for the benefit of others and ourselves.

I cannot imagine what the Pope would say if he knew that I had married ll wives in the name of God. Perhaps Sara could put the words into my mouth so that I would know what to say to the Pope.

quote:

---

Originally posted by newcomer:
Assalamu alaykum hassancheb!

I must admit that I am finding this discussion difficult as you seem to be intent on twisting my words and giving them meanings that were never intended; quoting things as if they are my words and then arguing against them when I never wrote the sentences that you are quoting;

---

How dare you claim that I am "twisting" your words and quoting things that are not your words, anything I quoted from you was cut and paste directly from your post, if what is written in your post was never "written" by you, then someone else is typing them using your ID! Any one in this thread with a grain of common sense can look at what I quoted from you, and look at what you wrote, and see that I didnt twist anything around!

I was responding to Janes overall statement comparing the "muslim" reason for taking a second wife to the same reasons a man in a "non muslim" society can have an affair! And I just asked her to choose her words carefully.

quote:

---

Originally posted by newcomer:
Incorrect quote: "The Prophet married [b]these women because he was attracted to them"

Examples of twisting words/implying that I said something I didn’t (I did not say/write/do any of these things):
“He DID NOT go around marrying every woman he found "attractive" and use islam to justify it.”
“the Prophet himself married women because he was simply "attracted" to them!”
“And as always I hear Pro-polygamist women...”
”...not who you are "encouraged" to marry,”
“question the manner in which the Prophet did what he did, …and if you find this questionable...”
“attempt to try to correct your misleading statements”
“desperate to prove yourself as you searched the book about the "Jihad" looking for statements of beauty...”
“NOT searching for "attractive" women to capture”
“NOT worldly benefits like marrying attractive women, or looking for some sort of worldly benefit for what He did!”
“You took it upon yourself to come to her (Jane’s) defense...”...etc.[/B]

---

Apparently you don't know the difference between quoting someone and paraphrasing your own understanding of what they wrote, this is why I asked you to claify for your statements on more than one occasion. 50 people can read a statement and come up with a different interpretation. But your clarification did not take place.

But for future references, when I quote someone I typically us the quote feature on the site, or put up " " quote marks around that they say! So there will be no discrepancy between what they actually said, and how I interpreted it. So stop acting as if I've twisted your words around, when you know better.

However, I suggest you re-read your own posts to find out where you did inaccurately quote me (with quotation marks) and and to realise that you weren't "paraphrasing your own understanding of what they wrote", you were actually rguing against things as if I had said them. That seems to be a pretty dangerous path to tred to me, particularly if you do this, along with some of the other tactics you have been employing in this argument, in other more important areas of life.

I will not change my mind, I will go to those hospitals to finish the application for you...

Wish you soon recovery