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Originally posted by gigli:
Im absolutely furious at some of the simple-minded comments that has been made in regards to foreign women. Firstly not all foreigners are from the same country with the same culture. No i was not raised Muslim. But hey guess what. I was raised God fearing, self respecting and important I have respect for other people. I find Egyptians are very much more interested in other peoples mistakes than their own. Of course I am not generalizing here but people wake up, look at your own faults first before you judge others. All of us are sinners before God. Its for him to judge, not for people. As regards to Egyptian girls?! Not all are as respecting as they seem so maybe foreign judging girls have a look at your own back yard first.Ive been with my fiance for almost two years now. Im not a jealous person in the least and trust him with my life. I have however noticed that some, so called classy Egyptian girls have little respect for other peoples relationships or feelings. Is this because Im not Egyptian? Ive been harassed, my email hacked, my phone number gotten somehow, horrible emails sent to my friends, sneaky things to make me look guilty, other girls have met me chatted with me then proceeded to hunt my fiance in the most disrespectful way. I find it insulting. My fiance worked in the tourist industry and met many foreign girls who liked him a lot, but knowing he's enganged, proceeded to be only friends in a very respectful way. In my country girls might be less religious in general, but we have respect for relationships and other people's feelings. Further when I walk with him in the street, Im always dressed respectfully and behave myself as is fitted to Egyptian moral society, but find that girls stare at him in a sleazy, sexual manner and then give me dirty looks!!! What is this? So Masriya Girls if any of you are nice relationship respecting girls, I would really like ot hear from you and your opinion in regards to these girls.

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Originally posted by 7aya:
who attacked foreign women? and its not masriya girls, its masriyat

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I get respect from egyptians who know me..but others, they are mostly not nice for me..
Are they jealous cause i have nice sweet egyptian man..one who could be their dream husband..
And i damn foreignal girl took him..

Mostly bad attension comes anyway from men..and in my country,this kind of attension get only "streetladys"...
i dont know what this men are thinking..are they knowing that it hurt me, do they know that i feel like i dont get any respect from them..

I am not perfect, my country is not perfect..
At least i can say it..
I am proud, but i am not living in dreams..where everything is only good and nice..
I like to talk problems and bad things..it is natural to have problems..and speak up..
Life is not paradise,not even here in egypt..

My sister in law had a heart attack. Somehow about 10 other taxi drivers coptic and muslim went on the verbal attack.

Worse yet, at the Sheraton Montazah Hilton Gulf Arab women demand that my passport be checked to make sure I wasn't a russian prostitute. Blond hair, blue eyes, young. I could see where they were going with it, but again my sister in law nearly died on the spot. Tourist police have inspected my passport too, asking who I was married to and why was I traveling with Egyptians. Co-wife question came up again. Sister in law nearly slapped that penciled necked ugly F*cker head off right there. She was in the killing mode. I blew off a crack, remarking that my brother in law was too ugly and smelly for me. Somehow these tourist police knew enough english to laugh.

Only a handful of young Egyptian women have given me hell. Yet somehow there is always a middle aged or elderly Egyptian around to give her an earful.

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Originally posted by gigli:
Does this hapn 2 Egyptian girls also?

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Duh, yes! Of course, constantly especially when the girl is pretty.

Geesh, why do you think they dish it out so much? Because it happened to them too.

If they weren't criticizing you they wouldn't consider you part of their society. They are including you. Its strange, it hurts, but you are family now.

Egyptians are thick skinned, this is normal. Come on, get used to it. Yet by the time you pump out a grandchild it will all settle down and people will leave you alone. Might explain why couples are so quick to have children?!?!

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Originally posted by sonomod:

If they weren't criticizing you they wouldn't consider you part of their society. They are including you. Its strange, it hurts, but you are family now.

[This message has been edited by sonomod (edited 18 May 2005).]

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Have to tell you that most Egyptians as you know don't have direct relationships with non Egyptians except egyptians in places like Hurghada and sharm and those are few, the rest of us unfortunatly happen to get only one source for information about the west which is Holywood, Before I know any westerner I rememebr when I used to watch that soap "the bold and the beautiful' which was very famous here, in that soap almost every man slept with every woman , I would stop watching it for few days and come back finding "thorn?" with another woman and the woman he had before now with his brother then to his father and and ... this stuff usually stressed the idea that Egyptians have deep inside them about western women.

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Originally posted by Troubles101:
Have to tell you that most Egyptians as you know don't have direct relationships with non Egyptians except egyptians in places like Hurghada and sharm and those are few, the rest of us unfortunatly happen to get only one source for information about the west which is Holywood, Before I know any westerner I rememebr when I used to watch that soap "the bold and the beautiful' which was very famous here, in that soap almost every man slept with every woman , I would stop watching it for few days and come back finding "thorn?" with another woman and the woman he had before now with his brother then to his father and and ... this stuff usually stressed the idea that Egyptians have deep inside them about western women.

[This message has been edited by Troubles101 (edited 18 May 2005).]

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Originally posted by ViVaLaDiVa:
Yes I also had some gr8 experiences..Once i was in a vegetable market buying things with my husband and an old woman was standing beside us.she asked my husband why r we buying vegetables coz western women cant cook for sure.like puppy said i only get respect from the people we know but when im on the street,even with my husband,people say bad things,men stare at me but what is worse,women r about to kill me with their eyes.then when we go and sit at a cafe usually the waiter asks my husband if he is a tourist guide.hmm..interesting

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In America we call this 'insecurity'.
I won't say this happens for sure with Egyptian girls, I don't know them & haven't been to Egypt yet, but I can say IF it happens, it is an insecurity problem.

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Originally posted by Troubles101:
Have to tell you that most Egyptians as you know don't have direct relationships with non Egyptians except egyptians in places like Hurghada and sharm and those are few, the rest of us unfortunatly happen to get only one source for information about the west which is Holywood, Before I know any westerner I rememebr when I used to watch that soap "the bold and the beautiful' which was very famous here, in that soap almost every man slept with every woman , I would stop watching it for few days and come back finding "thorn?" with another woman and the woman he had before now with his brother then to his father and and ... this stuff usually stressed the idea that Egyptians have deep inside them about western women.

[This message has been edited by Troubles101 (edited 18 May 2005).]

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I tried to make that point about Egyptian women marrying foreign men. Most Egyptians don't see a tourist all their life. Only a few work in tourism. The view of America most Brits have is from soaps but Americans aren't like Friends or LA LAw or Sex in the City!!!!

It is the same for Egyptians their view of Westerners is gained from movies and soaps. the few of them that interact with tourists might find those sterotypes re-enforced by some tourists and those are the ones that get talked about.

A few months ago a Western tourist walked down the Corniche wearing a bikini and a seethru sarong, at one point she took of her sarong and carried on in just the bikini. You better bet that everyone talked about her and forgot the hords of offenceless holiday makers who were also walking down the Corniche wear perfectly respectable clothes.

So a combination of TV and a few silly tourists, this could be your only experience of Westerners. No wonder people get the wrong idea.

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Originally posted by 7aya:
sonomod i dont understand why you make it a point to specify the religions of the taxi drivers?

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The only people who objected to my marriage to my British husband were the western women at work.How could you, Geoff ? one British nurse screemed at my husband while already engaged..!

Amazingly the only question I was asked by all Arabs, Egyptians and non, if my husband to be was a Moslem?

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Originally posted by 7aya:
sonomod i dont understand why you make it a point to specify the religions of the taxi drivers?

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Because it was a coptic christain that were being rude because only a Muslim man would indulge in having two wives. He was being malicious.

Then of course we must remember that both Christians and Muslims had the capacity to be sensitive and stick up for a fellow sister- Egyptian.

Meaning even if a few coptic taxi drivers had their heads firmly up their arse doesn't mean that all do. Kind of a way of seeing beyond their religion barrier.

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Originally posted by Troubles101:
Have to tell you that most Egyptians as you know don't have direct relationships with non Egyptians except egyptians in places like Hurghada and sharm and those are few, the rest of us unfortunatly happen to get only one source for information about the west which is Holywood, Before I know any westerner I rememebr when I used to watch that soap "the bold and the beautiful' which was very famous here, in that soap almost every man slept with every woman , I would stop watching it for few days and come back finding "thorn?" with another woman and the woman he had before now with his brother then to his father and and ... this stuff usually stressed the idea that Egyptians have deep inside them about western women.

[This message has been edited by Troubles101 (edited 18 May 2005).]

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And how foolish are people to believe everything they see on TV as the literal truth?

Uff.

My father in law worked in KSA for several years helping to put together a college education system for women. He worked with lots of western women. He gained a huge respect for them. So he brought this home on every other weekend to see his family and shared his experience.

Possibly why neither my father in law nor my mother in law freaked when we got married. They weren't worried.

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Originally posted by gigli:
Im absolutely furious at some of the simple-minded comments that has been made in regards to foreign women. Firstly not all foreigners are from the same country with the same culture. No i was not raised Muslim. But hey guess what. I was raised God fearing, self respecting and important I have respect for other people. I find Egyptians are very much more interested in other peoples mistakes than their own. Of course I am not generalizing here but people wake up, look at your own faults first before you judge others. All of us are sinners before God. Its for him to judge, not for people. As regards to Egyptian girls?! Not all are as respecting as they seem so maybe foreign judging girls have a look at your own back yard first.Ive been with my fiance for almost two years now. Im not a jealous person in the least and trust him with my life. I have however noticed that some, so called classy Egyptian girls have little respect for other peoples relationships or feelings. Is this because Im not Egyptian? Ive been harassed, my email hacked, my phone number gotten somehow, horrible emails sent to my friends, sneaky things to make me look guilty, other girls have met me chatted with me then proceeded to hunt my fiance in the most disrespectful way. I find it insulting. My fiance worked in the tourist industry and met many foreign girls who liked him a lot, but knowing he's enganged, proceeded to be only friends in a very respectful way. In my country girls might be less religious in general, but we have respect for relationships and other people's feelings. Further when I walk with him in the street, Im always dressed respectfully and behave myself as is fitted to Egyptian moral society, but find that girls stare at him in a sleazy, sexual manner and then give me dirty looks!!! What is this? So Masriya Girls if any of you are nice relationship respecting girls, I would really like ot hear from you and your opinion in regards to these girls.

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And its true the Egyptian girls do stare but I didn't care cause I was really proud of my man (he was all mine ).

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Originally posted by sonomod:
Because it was a coptic christain that were being rude because only a Muslim man would indulge in having two wives. He was being malicious.

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Originally posted by american gal:
Dear Gigli,
As far as women leering at your man... that happens the world over. Some women and some men want what they can't have because they are such miserable souls. They want to ruin everyone else's joy. Don't let these people (wherever you are) get to you... they're not worth it. As for being stared at while in Egypt... unfortunately, if you look different, you'll be stared at. You CAN have fun with it, of course. While my fiance (who is Egyptian) and I visited last year for six weeks, I got so sick of the men staring (and just ignoring it like a sheepish "lady") that I started staring back and giving them funny looks. My fiance began telling them off (in English) because he was just so sick of them, too. Then we'd just laugh our a**es off!! I know it seems so ridiculous to be looked at like you're from another planet (just because your hair is blond or you're fair skinned or you wear a pair of jeans or whatever), but remember there are worse things in the world. Just grin and bear it (or give it right back to them!!). And remember, there are MANY Egyptians who are warm, welcoming, and so so kind!! Take care.

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American Girl, your post made me smile so much You are right in what you said. Yes, you can find this behavior anywhere. Without getting too personal, it is even done here in the States amongst races, am I right?

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Originally posted by 1mangang:
dont christian mormons sometimes do the same thing?

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Originally posted by 7aya:
sonomod, you assumed the guy is copt just because he asked your husband if you are a second wife? muslim men joke about this stuff all the time too, big deal!

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No because he was the taxi driver who drove us from one cab stop to another in order to travel from Alexandria to Cairo. Taxi drivers don't often drive outside of their 'region'. He even asked me about whether I was a christian still or not and then went on to ask which guy was my husband, purposedly pointing at my sister-in-law's husband first. Which at that point all 6 people in the car starting shouting that my husband was back in America working and I was traveling to Egypt alone. This same taxi driver gave me a wooden cross with Jurselam burnt into it on a leather strap to remember my trip into Alex, what he refered to as the largest northern population of Copts. Which I know isn't factual.

After we got out of the vehicle to start looking for a car large enough for 6 people going to Cairo, that same taxi driver went to a group of other taxi drivers who had cruxifics and tattoos on thier wrist and pointed at me. One of the taxi drivers who was just passing by the group pointed and yelled in Arabic that I was a co-wife "here's a woman that will pay alot for a ride back into Cairo." He also had a coptic tatoo on his wrist. I could see it when he was pointing. This was explained to me by another driver standing around who couldn't drive us back to Cairo but wanted me to know what was going on becuause my sister in law started to cry. He thought he'd give me a heads up before I got alot of negative feedback or 'blame' from my sister-in-law on the ride home.

That's why this intial group of copts taxi drivers and a swell of Muslim taxi drivers chased him down and started shouting at him. I think one guy threw rocks at the driver who made this fraudulent attack.

Along with being questioned by Hotel staff and tourist police right and left for why I was traveling with Egyptians, the question of me being a cowife came up again and again. Most of the cowife questions were asked by men with crosses around their necks. This made the first trips to Alexandria unbearable for my sister in law.

Possibly due to this, my father in law bought two apartments in Alex, both next to the ocean and in nice neighborhoods. My name and my husband's name is on one of the apartments and the doormen of both buildings will hiss that my husband's in America to other tenants. Now I have a little permenancy in Alex and the news gets around. Plus about 8 months a year anywhere from twice a month to 3 days a week my daughter and a bunch of family go there to swim in the ocean and enjoy themselves.

So the first two weekends there before dad bought the apartments were tough. Now we have different travel arrangements because the Taxi depot really rattles my sister-in-laws cage.

Yes Muslim men may joke about it, but a coptic man insulting my sister-in-law at a taxi depot where we are the only women around is another thing.

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Originally posted by nooralhaq:
American Girl, your post made me smile so much You are right in what you said. Yes, you can find this behavior anywhere. Without getting too personal, it is even done here in the States amongst races, am I right?

I agree with your advice to Gigli, have fun with it! I certainly would! Men here do their fair share of staring in their own ways and how do we react? Most times ignoring it, giving them dirty looks, funny faces, laughing at them out loud (which that is my personal favorite), etc. The same can be done with the women she encounters. Have fun with them, try reverse psychology, look at them and laugh out loud, if anything it will make them wonder what the heck you're laughing at long enough to throw them off. Remember, you don't have to plan on attending every argument you're invited to. Control the situation in your own way Gigli. Best of luck my friend.
Take care.

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it's the stuff of soap operas and i still can't believe half of it.

as to do they receive the same treatment on street from men as foreigners? definitely not. i have seen girls in skin tight outfits walk in front of me without a comment but the same men would focus their unwanted attention on me (who was dressed in loose clothing). it's not about who is prettier or more exotic looking - it's simply because they know that if they dare say something to an egyptian woman, she would raise hell and shame them right there on the spot. they might even get a whooping from other fellow passerbys. if you look like a foreigner, they assume you (1) don't understand what they're saying and definitely (2) won't do anything about it.

it helps not to wear jeans and look like a tourist.

it also helps to stop dead on the spot and give them the most disguisted look you can with a cold face.

then slowly walk away.

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Originally posted by american gal:
Hi Nooralhaq! I'm glad I made you smile... life's too short to take it too seriously, huh? I never felt "stared" at (while with my fiance) to this degree at all in the states. Sure, I'm sure some bigoted people may look at us and wonder (me with blond hair and fair skin/ him with black hair and olive skin) but, overall, I've never felt like we were on "display" while walking through Boston. In Egypt, however, I felt like a piece of meat walking down the street, even though my fiance was always by my side. I've never experienced a man leering at me in the U.S. while my fiance was next to me. Oh well, like you said, just have fun with it, huh? Sometimes it's fun to totally shock people by your reaction!! Take care.

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Originally posted by Suzanna:
gigli-- so happy that you brought this issue to surface and pleased with the supportive comments from a few-- am american and been in this country for 7 years and this issue of the egyptian girls still amazes me -- I suppose it is because we are a minority so it stings more. Being engaged or married seems to have little relevance to some and thier tactics to get the attention of your man is overwhelming -- let us be honest there are many men who fall for this -- but if you have a good trustful man -- great and ignore them -- I do -- but I admit sometimes it gets to me -- thanks for speaking up.

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ps: stop this conspiracy theory mentality

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Originally posted by 7aya:
i hate to break it to you guys, but sexual harrasment in the streets of cairo is a really serious problem and is directed at anything that is female. i get harrased all the time. i've been harrased so much that when i started working as a journalist i chose my first article to be about sexual harrasment in the streets. and expat, what you're saying is wrong, egyptian girls get harrased ALL THE TIME. i have yet to meet a girl who has not been harrased! even my veiled friends complain about it. they walk around with their veil and long flowing clothes and still hissing and cat calling in the streets.
i really find it hilarious that foreign women think they are being harrased just because they are non-egyptians. are u guys blind? do you know any egyptian girls? because if you do ask them what happens to them when they walk in the streets?!
why their is harrasment on the streets in egypt? thats a completely different story and one definitly worthy of discussion

ps: stop this conspiracy theory mentality

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Gigli,
Forgive me as I did not read all of the replies to your original post.

It is the human nature to fear the difference-anything different, and this happens any where. But, we, women, sadly are more sensitive toward the changes.
Bitch (I do not like this word, but do not know alternative) moaning, and nagging creature-Ask my long suffering husband, he has this type at his home 24hrs/day.
Believe me, I was myself harassed many times in the UK-but I took it kindly-I am different, that was the reason.

The representation of the western women in the media-as many here said previously has got a lot to do with how we, in the East, see them. I am sure it is the same case in the West as well.

Just today's news, there were these three little girls 12, 14 & 16 years sisters who each got a baby daughter were interviewed on the TV regarding the pill's for 10 yr. old here in the UK.
When asked about the reason why getting pregnant at that young age, their lovely mother was adamant that it the school to be blamed.…!
As an Egyptian raised (even though, I spent most of life in the West) I still wonder, what is happening to the western girls? Forgetting that my sister in law was not allowed to go out on her own till she was 19, also my best friend Kath who is a consultant was not allowed to pierce her ear as it was considered BAD. She was married only recently at 37 and never had a boy friend before then.(needless to say, she is an Irish catholic ).

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Originally posted by gigli:
Nobody has actually answered my question. Why do s get so up front in Cairo. I really like to know. To understand better so I dont feel so offended. there must be a reason for these things?

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When you feel so low and little the only solace you have is trying to make someone else feel even lower.