quote:

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Originally posted by Snoozin:
Yeah, I was looking through the paper online for something else, and your named popped up. So I read a few articles. Very cool!

:-)

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Care to post the links to the articles, this I have to see for myself.

BTW 7aya is a very common name in Egypt.

And if I'm wrong about my suspicions of her, I will apologise to her, I've done it before, I'm not too proud to admit when I'm wrong about something.

quote:

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Originally posted by Snoozin:

I do have a question for you. My fiance is a journalist too (TV/radio), and he said they use (or used?) Classical Arabic on the air. Is that true? He speaks classical, Egyptian, and fluent English. His English is better than most Americans' English. But I don't really understand what role, if any, Classical Arabic plays in daily life. Because now I've heard of this Modern Standard Arabic?

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Leila, people do laugh sometimes or at least raise eyebrows when I speak in my classical Arabic, and I’ve even had a taxi driver telling me it would make life easier for me if I learn Arabic, (and that was when I was coming out of my level 10 class…I guess my English accent was coming through too strongly!) But when people realize that is the way I communicate in Arabic they either accept it and try to converse with a mixture of Egyptian and Arabic, or slip into English, if they know it. It’s amazing though how quickly shopkeepers stop giggling when they realize I want to spend money, and they are suddenly able to understand every word I say!

Snoozin, basically the language that is spoken throughout the Arabic world is the local dialect/colloquial language or “’ammiyyah” and each country has its own version which seems to be a mixture of Arabic with words and rules from the original language of the people before Arabic was introduced or from colonial influences, or the original local Arabic dialect. This language is not usually written, except in things like strip-cartoons, but I hear that there is a newspaper here that is written in Egyptian Arabic now. Classical Arabic is based on the language of the Qur’an, which is where all the grammar rules were taken from. This has developed a bit over the years and some words are considered old fashioned and rarely used now and more modern words have been added (Modern Standard Arabic), but it still follows the classical rules. This language is used as the written language for books, newspapers, and any written communication, even letters, but the only times is it seems to be spoken is for official purposes, such as the news, formal speeches, lectures, and strangely enough Japanese cartoons (the Japanese worked out if they wanted to sell their cartoons throughout the Arabic world they needed a standard language…I once met a 4 year old Malay girl who spoke wonderful classical Arabic from watching cartoons!)

quote:

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So could you tell me what *shamal* and *yameen* mean?

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quote:

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Originally posted by kadijah2000:
Care to post the links to the articles, this I have to see for myself.

BTW 7aya is a very common name in Egypt.

And if I'm wrong about my suspicions of her, I will apologise to her, I've done it before, I'm not too proud to admit when I'm wrong about something.

[This message has been edited by kadijah2000 (edited 19 August 2005).]

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quote:

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Originally posted by MyKingdomForATaba2Koshari:
This all makes me very confused about raising my child in a multilingual setting. ..

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I have friends in Egypt where the mother is German and the father Egyptian. The mother only speaks German to the children and the father only speaks Egyptian to them. They are in the British school where all lessons are in English ( except for arabic!). They have no problem with all the languages, it is amazes me at how they will automatically speak to me in English, my husband in arabic,english or german, and any language between themselves.

quote:

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Originally posted by diana_ivanova:
Khadija do u know what,i dont see a reason for your attacks!7aya didnt post this topic to show off what she is and what she learn,as u see she just want to discuss about the language,and its so rediculous!Do u know her personally?????Whats this offensivve attack on her,do this,do that!Are u the right person to say to her how to talk and for what to talk,as a journalist she try to discuss many topics interesting for all of us,and i am happy that we have her here,and can read her posts,she is fresh air in this forum!She is smart,intelligent,dont make useless confromtations with the others,and never been rude to anyone!
I`m sure her bf know all that u advice her to save for him!I also advice her not to handle on the comments of people like you!
Go on 7aya,be like u are,and be proud with what u are,all u did,u make it from urself,not steal it from someone!

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quote:

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Originally posted by diana_ivanova:
Khadija do u know what,i dont see a reason for your attacks!7aya didnt post this topic to show off what she is and what she learn,as u see she just want to discuss about the language,and its so rediculous!Do u know her personally?????Whats this offensivve attack on her,do this,do that!Are u the right person to say to her how to talk and for what to talk,as a journalist she try to discuss many topics interesting for all of us,and i am happy that we have her here,and can read her posts,she is fresh air in this forum!She is smart,intelligent,dont make useless confromtations with the others,and never been rude to anyone!
I`m sure her bf know all that u advice her to save for him!I also advice her not to handle on the comments of people like you!
Go on 7aya,be like u are,and be proud with what u are,all u did,u make it from urself,not steal it from someone!

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I'm not attacking her so stop overusing the word. And you are a liar if you think 7aya has never had a confrontation with anyone on this board, she has had many, much more than me. Maybe you are partial towards her, that's your business, but you don't know what you are talking about.

quote:

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Originally posted by Penny:
I have friends in Egypt where the mother is German and the father Egyptian. The mother only speaks German to the children and the father only speaks Egyptian to them. They are in the British school where all lessons are in English ( except for arabic!). They have no problem with all the languages, it is amazes me at how they will automatically speak to me in English, my husband in arabic,english or german, and any language between themselves.

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Penny children learn a foreign language much faster than adults. And what this couple is doing is highly recommended.

I don't understand why any parent would not want their child to learn how to read and write in their own native language, unless they are being pretentious and trying to show off. I don't care who agrees with this.

And who puts up a sign in an Arabic country in only English unless they are trying to attract a certain customer, an English speaking one. Makes one wonder about this class-oriented society and all the transparency that comes along with it.

What do you suggest I try to learn (with key emphasis on the *try*)? I mean, if I move to Cairo, inshallah, I want to be able to speak with my fiance's parents in Arabic, so that would be colloquial Egyptian Arabic, right? But I also need to know how to read street signs and that type of thing.

I don't think I'll ever be fluent, but I'd like to be able to follow *most* of a conversation.

I told Pendarth, I'm having trouble just with the alphabet right now! The different forms for certain positions in the word. Ay, it gives me a headache to think about it! I dream these days of diacritical marks!

Salam,

Snoozin

quote:

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Originally posted by kadijah2000:
And who puts up a sign in an Arabic country in only English unless they are trying to attract a certain customer, an English speaking one. Makes one wonder about this class-oriented society and all the transparency that comes along with it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Penny:
Going back to the class issue can you tell in arabic( egyptian) what class somebody is from by the way they speak?. With English spoken in Great Britain by an English speaker you can tell most of the time if someone is working/middle/ upper class by the way they speak and the Words they use.
You can also tell which part of the country they are from. People from the North have a very different accent to those in the South.

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Ha ha ha, I had to laugh at this, in London you can tell what street someone grew up on, and make all sorts of assumptions about that person's background, education level, and class they are in just from their accent along.

My husband told me that educated Egyptians can read and write in modern standardised arabic, the arabic spoken by politicians.

And if they can speak another language besides arabic, like English or French, fluently, then more than likely they are upperclass with either a private school education or taken private lessons.

quote:

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Originally posted by Penny:
Going back to the class issue can you tell in arabic( egyptian) what class somebody is from by the way they speak?. With English spoken in Great Britain by an English speaker you can tell most of the time if someone is working/middle/ upper class by the way they speak and the Words they use.
You can also tell which part of the country they are from. People from the North have a very different accent to those in the South.

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Same in America. Maybe not so much *class.* But whether they are educated or not, definitely. And I don't mean just from word choice, either. It's an accent. (Of course there are always exceptions to that).

Don't know if it was a common thing in England, but it used to be in the US, if you used bad *dirty* words, your mother would literally wash your mouth out with soap.

I remember coming in one day after playing outside. I was 8 or 9 I think, and I had picked up a *country* (or uneducated) accent from the kids on the street. My mother had a fit and threatened to wash my mouth out with soap. I didn't even say anything *bad.* She just didn't like the way I was talking! My accent.

quote:

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Originally posted by 7aya:

you know whats hilarious? its that you actually agree with me. the above paragrpah sums up what i was trying to say in the first place. egyptians are showing off with english wether its through the store signs, or showing off with other languages mostly english and french. this is what i was talking about in my original post. but you were too busy judging and attacking me to notice. and diana is fluent in her own language, and most people here understand what she's saying.

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Wow you find it hilarious, when the person putting up the sign is your very own father????

So you admit you come from a transparent family? Please lets be honest with eachother.

quote:

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Originally posted by kadijah2000:
Wow you find it hilarious, when the person putting up the sign is your very own father????

So you admit you come from a transparent family? Please lets be honest with eachother.

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quote:

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Originally posted by diana_ivanova:
Well well
dear khadija i never even pretended to say that the english is my native language and im proud with my own!
If you think your silly comments are attack for me then please dont get fluttered so much!
( have never even seen ur name here before and seems ur words never been interesting for me to even mention your presence ion this forum!
The bitchy comments that u leave here is nothing for me!
I just like 7aya and her personality from what i readed untill now,and you are just jealousing from what i see!
You dont like my english????
Big deal,u definately don`t make me cry from that!
People like you cant abuse me dear,find smth better to do,ok!

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If my presence didn't matter to you, you would not respond to me.

What you are doing now, is called a counter-attack, calling me bitch, so now this is a confrontation, and neither one of us are perfect are we? I can admit so, but broads like you need to stop standing on their high horses tooting their own horns as if all you do is engage intellectual conversations.

BTW I was just teasing you about your poor english grammar for getting involved in a debate that doesn't concern you, showing favoritism towards one party. If you don't like what I say, then you can simply ignore me. But 7aya has a mind of her own, and she can speak for herself,why you felt the need to involve yourself in some sorority type fashion is beyond me, especially when you didnt add much to the original language debate, besides a few arse kisses here and there. I guess now, 7aya owes you one, and should speak up for you if you're ever "attacked" is that how the sorority works girls?

quote:

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Originally posted by kadijah2000:
Luckily for me I've never like being around women nor trying to fit in.

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quote:

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Originally posted by kadijah2000:

Luckily for me I've never like being around women

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Now *that* explains a lot.

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Originally posted by Snoozin:
Thanks Newcomer,

What do you suggest I try to learn (with key emphasis on the *try*)? I mean, if I move to Cairo, inshallah, I want to be able to speak with my fiance's parents in Arabic, so that would be colloquial Egyptian Arabic, right? But I also need to know how to read street signs and that type of thing.

I don't think I'll ever be fluent, but I'd like to be able to follow *most* of a conversation.

I told Pendarth, I'm having trouble just with the alphabet right now! The different forms for certain positions in the word. Ay, it gives me a headache to think about it! I dream these days of diacritical marks!

Salam,

Snoozin

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quote:

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Originally posted by 7aya:
kadijah did you even read my post? i was saying hilarious because you've been attacking me the entire time yet you agree with my opinion in the original topic. i'm upset that people in egypt think that way, and when i mentioned my father, i was attacking him. if you read what i wrote dear, you'd see that i told him to put it in arabic too. we are both saying the same thing, how can you not see it, read my first post.

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Why do you keep saying attacking you, I don't like the misuse of this word. Okay I called you a liar in one post, that was a personal attack, but other than that, I've been attacking what you've said, because I thought you shouldnt point fingers at other Egyptians without starting with yourself.

Ok, now my error, I didnt read this part:
"why do we have so much disrespect for our own language? and its not just any language, its the most beautiful and richest language in the world.
further, speaking english has become a must if someone wants to be considered classy"

So you did use the word "we" and admit that you are guilty of using English to show your class as well. It's ok you can admit it, my husband is a classist, I hate it, but that's how Egyptians are. They do look down on people from a lower class than them, but only their own people, not foreigners.

I admit that in London, we were just working class people, my father is a retired fire fighter and an old Irish alcoholic. Irish have been looked down on in London forever. So I can relate to people that have been looked down on all their lives.

quote:

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Originally posted by newcomer:
If your main focus is speaking to the family, I would concentrate efforts on that. There are a whole bunch of teach yourself Egyptian tape sets you could use as a start until you get here, but you also need to read Arabic, especially if you are thinking about Islam. But maybe concentrate on simple reading and pronounciation first rather than getting deeply into the grammar. Sadly there is no way round learning both to have any level of functionality here.

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Newcomer, I said my shahada last night!

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Originally posted by Snoozin:
Newcomer, I said my shahada last night!

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Subhan Allah, Alhamdu lillah, la illaha illa Allah, Mubaraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaak! How wonderful!!! Where? How? Do tell! I thought it was close, but so close! Ma sha Allah!

quote:

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Originally posted by newcomer:
Subhan Allah, Alhamdu lillah, la illaha illa Allah, Mubaraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaak! How wonderful!!! Where? How? Do tell! I thought it was close, but so close! Ma sha Allah!

I have actually found a Malay woman married to an American who is giving some classes, in her home I think, but I wasn't sure whether you would want formal classes or more of an individual you could just talk to.

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Shukran, Newcomer. Thank you so much for all of your help. Actually, I've *felt* Muslim for many months now. As I wrote to 7aya, I believe in one God, and I believe the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was His messenger. That makes me close, right? I was, and still am, very afraid of how ignorant I am about Islam (mostly now about daily implications of being Muslim, I'm very satisfied with the basic precepts) and don't want to disrespect Islam by doing something wrong.

But I was chatting on yahoo with Pendarth last night, and he suggested saying it if I feel it, and to keep learning afterward, because no Muslim is perfect in his/her knowledge anyway. We all have to strive to learn more...

So I called my fiance, who was at work, and said it to him. I wanted a witness. Not perfect, over a mobile phone, but I did it. My fiance was very happy, even though *he* is not particularly religious. I thought that was a bit weird, but very nice. Pendarth gave me some information on how to perform the salaat, and ablution.

Does the woman teach beginning classes? I would be interested in that. Thanks so much for all of your help and your information. You have no idea how much I appreciate it.

Salam,

Susan

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Originally posted by Paint Me As I Am:

Alhamdullah............

Welcome sis...
I am still learning..
i went to sites like: www.muslim-canada.org/salaat.html www.islamicity.com
u can check the time of prayer in ur area.. hope that helps..

We all learn at different speeds... Just remember this......>>>

"When a new born baby is born she/he is given only milk to live for the first few months before eating any soild foods.."

"U can't give a new born baby a Piece of steak since they will choke on it..Just as we are learning- we learn in a baby step way.. in time you will grow as Allah gives u the guidance to do so"..

Let no one Rob you of your new life......
even if they make u feel so bad- or walk away from u- u have done what is right before God and thats all thats counts..

~~~ WELCOME TO ISLAM ~~~

Always...Jannah (Still learning)

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Shukran, Jannah (pretty name) I like your analogy with the baby, makes perfect sense. Thank you for the websites. Yes, I've got one www.islamicfinder.org that tells me prayer times. I have been checking it like 25x a day because I'm afraid I'll mess up!

Thanks again, Salam,

Susan

When I saw you writing (pbuh) after the Prophet’s name today, I knew that you had taken a big step to do that, but to actually say the shahadah is another step, confirming it and making a commitment. Insha Allah, your faith will strengthen you and always be your guide.

When I said my shahadah I did it because I too felt it was the right thing to do and my heart felt calm about taking the step, although like you, once I had done it I had to start working out the implications on my daily life and how it would affect me. I had a friend who said her shahadah a couple of weeks before me, and she said that although she had become a Muslim it wasn’t going to change her, and it didn’t, on the surface at least. I said I didn’t know how it would affect me, and it has taken me on paths I would never have dreamed of, including some of the most challenging and difficult times of my life. But because I was confident in my heart that the choice I had made was the right one, for the right reasons, and that I knew it was all part of challenges I was having to face, I never once regretted my decision or wished that I hadn’t done it. The highest rewards of Paradise aren’t handed out for just sitting around on your butt doing nothing! But Allah never tests you with more than you can bear, and as I mentioned before, it is to help to strengthen your faith and bring you closer to Him.

All my Muslim friends were happy for me too, even the non-practicing ones, because although they didn’t practice it was often because of a weakness in them not due to not believing. And if people believe in Allah and the Day of Judgement, they are happy when others do too. I’m glad you said it to your fiancé though; it is good to keep him involved as you will need each other’s support through this adjustment.

As to how to learn, take it slowly, at your own pace and take the next step when you are ready. They say that learning is like going up a hill, you have to keep striving for the next step, because if you stay still you will start sliding down. But make the steps small manageable ones, particularly at first. The most important thing to start with is the five prayers, they are the foundation of the faith, and what distinguishes a Muslim from a non-Muslim. You don’t have to do them all perfectly immediately, but if you set yourself small targets, you will be surprised how quickly they will become part of your life. Everything else comes after that.

One of the things I found most challenging was something you mentioned the other day about the cultural side of becoming a Muslim. People will always want to give you advice, and will be very sincere about it, but often people who were born into Islam do many things because their family or community do them, and assume that it is Islam, but it is not always the case. If something is part of Islam that we are supposed to do, not do, or believe, there will be evidence from the Qur’an, Sunnah, or major sources of fiqh. So as my guide if anybody has told me I have to do something, I ask for the evidence to support it, and only if it is sound will I accept it.

Apparently the lady gives classes for new Muslims and also non-Muslims, and Qur’anic classes too, probably to teach people how to read the Qur’an. I don’t know her personally, so I have no idea about her style. But when I first accepted Islam I went to a few different places until I found the one I was comfortable going to, and found it a useful way to make contacts and get to know other new Muslims too. I’ll pass your email onto her and get her to make the contact with you, insha Allah. If you don’t hear from her by Monday, let me know and I will chase it up. Her name is Noor, by the way. And as they say in Arabic: la shukr ala wajib (no thanks are due for what is an obligation on me!) it is a pleasure to be able to share.

quote:

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Originally posted by Corvinous:
May I ask... WHERE IS SERENDIPITY IN ALL THAT ? I GUESS SHE WOULD HAVE HAD MANY HTINGS TO SAY AND DISCUSS AND SO MANY INFORMATION SHE WOULD FIND VERY USEFUL, PLEASE LADIES CHECK ON HER, SHE USED TO ALERT YOU ABOUT ABSENT PEOPLE AND WISH THEM WELL

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Corvinous.

She isn't feeling well. I'm not sure what's up. Low blood pressure or low sugar. I hope she has been able to see a doctor and I hope she is feeling better. Thanks for being concerned about her.

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Originally posted by newcomer:
Assalamu alaykum Susan!!

When I said my shahadah I did it because I too felt it was the right thing to do and my heart felt calm about taking the step, although like you, once I had done it I had to start working out the implications on my daily life and how it would affect me. I had a friend who said her shahadah a couple of weeks before me, and she said that although she had become a Muslim it wasn’t going to change her, and it didn’t, on the surface at least. I said I didn’t know how it would affect me, and it has taken me on paths I would never have dreamed of, including some of the most challenging and difficult times of my life. But because I was confident in my heart that the choice I had made was the right one, for the right reasons, and that I knew it was all part of challenges I was having to face, I never once regretted my decision or wished that I hadn’t done it. The highest rewards of Paradise aren’t handed out for just sitting around on your butt doing nothing! But Allah never tests you with more than you can bear, and as I mentioned before, it is to help to strengthen your faith and bring you closer to Him.

All my Muslim friends were happy for me too, even the non-practicing ones, because although they didn’t practice it was often because of a weakness in them not due to not believing. And if people believe in Allah and the Day of Judgement, they are happy when others do too. I’m glad you said it to your fiancé though; it is good to keep him involved as you will need each other’s support through this adjustment.

As to how to learn, take it slowly, at your own pace and take the next step when you are ready. They say that learning is like going up a hill, you have to keep striving for the next step, because if you stay still you will start sliding down. But make the steps small manageable ones, particularly at first. The most important thing to start with is the five prayers, they are the foundation of the faith, and what distinguishes a Muslim from a non-Muslim. You don’t have to do them all perfectly immediately, but if you set yourself small targets, you will be surprised how quickly they will become part of your life. Everything else comes after that.

One of the things I found most challenging was something you mentioned the other day about the cultural side of becoming a Muslim. People will always want to give you advice, and will be very sincere about it, but often people who were born into Islam do many things because their family or community do them, and assume that it is Islam, but it is not always the case. If something is part of Islam that we are supposed to do, not do, or believe, there will be evidence from the Qur’an, Sunnah, or major sources of fiqh. So as my guide if anybody has told me I have to do something, I ask for the evidence to support it, and only if it is sound will I accept it.
long ramble, but I am just so happy for you!

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Please ramble away. I find it very interesting and I respect how you live your life (of course from what I can tell from your posts)

Yes, the salat. Pendarth told me (have I already said this?) to repeat allahu ahkbar many times until I can learn the Qur'an.

May I ask, did you convert while in the US, or in Egypt, or somewhere else? I am finding it imperative to *find* Muslims to help me out because I cannot do it, or do it right, alone. While I was in Egypt, I know it would have been a lot easier, with almost 30 family members (fiance's) more than willing to teach me things. His dad *runs* a mosque, although I have no idea what that even means. I didn't know mosques were *run.* In any event, he is definitely a respected elder at his mosque.

I agree with you, some habits I am sure come from culture and tradition rather than Islam itself. My fiance used to be very religious and is still very knowledgable, and I pick his brain every now and then, too.

But right now I feel a bit isolated.

And where can I get information on the Sunnah?

I must run, thanks again, Newcomer.

Salam,

Susan

It will take a while before you find your feet, but as I said just take it slowly and realize that you are entering a new world, so you will be a stranger for a long time until you find your place in it. I don’t know if you noticed, but we had another ES member say her shahadah recently, Karah_Mia and by chance she also lives near you too. Check out her contact on her profile, she might be good to talk to now. I have also remembered another lady, who I think is Egyptian who helped another friend of mine when she accepted Islam and lives in your area. I’ll try to get a contact for you. And as RaniaMia suggested, what about your fiancé’s contacts, they should be able to help…but be warned, everybody loves to meet a new Muslim and you may get a bit swamped with advice and attention, particularly initially.

I smiled when you told me what Pendarth had suggested to do as a start for praying as something similar was suggested to me, I was told to start by following all the movements of the prayer, and to praise Allah while I was doing it. However I said my shahadah just before Ramadan (the fasting month), this was before I came to the States or Egypt, my friends were attending the night prayers in the mosque, so I went along with them. These prayers are the longest prayers that Muslims pray together and can sometimes take up to about an hour! But there I was going up and down with everybody reciting whatever phrases I knew at the time that sounded Arabic and mentioned Allah! I hope He forgives me, as I really am not sure of what I was saying at the time, but my intention was certainly good! It was also a very spiritual experience for me to take part in those prayers and made me feel part of the community. The second most spiritual Ramadan prayers for me were actually in VA, at the IIASA (Institute of Islamic and Arabic Studies in America in Fairfax). They used to bring some amazing reciters over from Saudi Arabia and it was beautiful to experience.

I had some time this morning so I checked out some links for you that I thought might be useful for you now: http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=378&dgn=2 (basic rulings for someone accepting Islam)
Nice articles about the importance of prayer: http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=363 http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=320
How to pray as a new Muslim: http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=22900&dgn=4 http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=3471&dgn=4 (this answer may use too many unfamiliar terms, but it gives a full fiqh answer)
This link has some good links about how to pray, the beginners flash program looks good: http://www.a2youth.com/islam/rituals.html
Generally these two pages have a lot of good links on many subjects: http://www.islamic-knowledge.com and http://sultan.org/#sunnah http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/law/fiqhussunnah/ (this may be a bit heavy for now, but is an excellent reference book on many aspects of worship and shows the different opinions of the different schools of thought)

quote:

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Originally posted by newcomer:
I think part of the problem of many foreigners in Egypt not learning Arabic well, either to speak it or to read and write is partly due to the fact that so many Egyptians do speak English and so the necessity to learn is diminished. After all, the purpose of language is to communicate and if most of the people you come into contact with speak English to some degree or other, what is the incentive in daily life to learn Egyptian, apart from for shopping or taxis where you aren’t always likely to meet people who can understand English?

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Also, I personally hate being in a country and not being able to understand what people around me are saying, be it on the street or in a group of friends. When I first came here I could read and write Arabic and knew the basics of classical Arabic but of course it was of no use. I hated the feeling of not being able to communicate, it made me feel insecure and isolated.
At the moment I can handle everyday situations fine and I can usually halfway follow a conversation but I still feel very insufficient; I definitely want to be able to communicate fluently one day.

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But the way classical Arabic is usually taught, the focus is too much on the grammar and dissecting the language, rather than on how to put it together in a comprehensible form and comprehending it.

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There are schools and teachers in Cairo, though, that teach classical Arabic while focusing on conversation, have you tried any of them?

I have tried a number of centres that teach classical Arabic and most of them have encouraged conversation, which is one of the reasons why I can speak enough classical Arabic to get by in most of the places I need to go to. But what I really need the classical Arabic for is to be able to read and write as those are main things it is used for here, but all the centres that I have tried, once you get past a certain level they assume that students are learning Arabic to either do Islamic or Arabic studies at university and concentrate on explaining classical Arabic texts and even more complex grammar and “balaghah”. But what I want to do is pick up a newspaper and read it or a book, or be able to write a letter or report with reasonable confidence, the sort of practical skills you would be learning on an ESL/TEFL course, but this is what I haven’t found yet. The only place I have heard of this way of teaching was at AUC, but that is out of my price range at the moment.

I see thru your transparency ya 7aya.[/QUOTE]

Ya Khadija,
As an Egyptian woman who went to a catholic school I only learned to write arabic alphabets at the age of 7 and sentences at the age of 8. So 7aya's words make so much sense to me. And 50% of my friends' arabic is crap!

And to be honest, it was my parents aim in life to give their kids the best education available..yes, it is prestigious. But can you tell me any place in the world were better education isnt prestigious?

Where? name one cty, where a person who doesnt speak three languages, doesnt go to an expensive school, doesnt act high and mighty isnt preferred to others?

The point is: it's not our job to investigate truth behind posts! Was she 9 or 10? Is she this or that..why? as long as the topic itself makes sense and hell IT DOES!

I think we should put aside our "judgements" on each other bcz really no one gives a **** what others think of him!
Bcz we, at the end of the day are a bunch of strangers hoping to learn more abt the "other" , his/her life, experiences, thoughts...regardless of what that other thinks of us!

Regards,
Noha

My pa tricked me into reading a 1000 pages English/Arabic dictionary when I was 12!!!!

I did it for him, he said he'd be proud of me if i did it and he was!

Guess what my first job was...

A translator!!! And guess what my other two sisters do for a living?? Same same!

I know the thought of reading a dictionary might make u sick , but it could work.

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Originally posted by 7aya:
i've been wanting to open a thread about the arabic language for a while now. as an egyptian woman, who was born and raised in egypt, arabic naturally is my first language. however when i was 11, my parents sent me to a british school where very little arabic was taught. i stayed in that school for two years and then moved to an amercian high school where no arabic was taught and any student speaking arabic would be fined. (if this happened in any other country they would be sued) ofcourse elhamdulleah because i was in an egyptian school until i was 10, i had already managed to learn how to read arabic. in fact all my reading nowadays are in arabic. however, although i know how to write, i dont have enough command of the (classical) arabic to write, and ofcourse i didn't really care at the time.
then i went to auc, again no arabic,everything is taught in english, so no chance there to improve my language. when i graduated and had my first job, i was really embarrased when my boss asked me to write a letter in arabic. i just stared at her blankly, and stuttred, but i can't write arabic! at that moment i realised how ridcolous it is for someone like me who spent her entire life in an arabic speaking country, but is incapable of writing in arabic is! and it started haunting me. i hired a private teacher to teach me how to write, but the woman just didn't know what to do with me. and now that i'm a journalist, it makes me feel even worse. i'm forced to write in an english publication, when all i want to do is write for my own people, and how many of them can read english?
now my parents are defintly to blmae for this, but the thing is they are not the only ones. i know many people especially in the upper or upper middle class, who prefer to have children with good english or french, rather than good arabic. i know people who boast, yes boast that they can't read arabic? did you ever see a french person boasting of not being able to read french? i also know many women who teach their babies english first and then later arabic.
why do we have so much disrespect for our own language? and its not just any language, its the most beautiful and richest language in the world.
further, speaking english has become a must if someone wants to be considered classy. does this happen in any language? when i went to france and germany, i was really impressed by how much these people respect their languages. they refuse to speak any other excecpt if its a must. unlike us, where you find two egyptians sitting in a cafe, speaking only in english.
its not just that, but look around at the shop names, its all in english. its "balady" to write it in arabic. even my dad he put the name of our store on both sides in english. and i told him why don't you put one side in arabic? i mean you are in egypt, and you are selling to egyptians arent you?
my question is why don't we love our language? why don't we respect it? do we realise how many people would love to learn arabic?
i also want to know why so many foreigners come to egypt and not learn any arabic. in my high school my math teacher was in egypt for 30 years, 30 years and he doesn't speak arabic. would it have been the same if he was living in germany, or france? also my uncle's wife is american and she lived in egypt for ten years and didn't know except very basic arabic words like men fadlek, shemal, yemeen. unfortunatly there are many cases like that. i've met very few foreigners who were able to master the language.
also as a side topic, i'm very curious to know what arabic sounds like to non arabic speaking people?

best

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I know I am going to get a lot of flack here, but I am in support of your parents here... Arabic is not a useful language. In fact I would go as far as saying it should be a dead language...

It is very limited and limiting. For example the pathetic effort to translate Cunningham's manual of practical anatomy (Koshari may know), resulted in such howlers as, superficial fascia , being called " safaieeh motaraqreqah sateheyya" for those who may work it out in Arabic...he he he

It may have some beautiful aspects...I concede...but as a practical language in Science, Medicine, or Technology...it is sadly a total dead loss

quote:

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Originally posted by ngeg:
7aya,

My pa tricked me into reading a 1000 pages English/Arabic dictionary when I was 12!!!!

I did it for him, he said he'd be proud of me if i did it and he was!

Guess what my first job was...

A translator!!! And guess what my other two sisters do for a living?? Same same!

I know the thought of reading a dictionary might make u sick , but it could work.

[

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Reading dictionaries is one of the best hobbies one could have. Another great dad is involved here. Well done ngeg pa.

quote:

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Originally posted by newcomer:
But what I really need the classical Arabic for is to be able to read and write as those are main things it is used for here, but all the centres that I have tried, once you get past a certain level they assume that students are learning Arabic to either do Islamic or Arabic studies at university and concentrate on explaining classical Arabic texts and even more complex grammar and “balaghah”. But what I want to do is pick up a newspaper and read it or a book, or be able to write a letter or report with reasonable confidence, the sort of practical skills you would be learning on an ESL/TEFL course, but this is what I haven’t found yet. The only place I have heard of this way of teaching was at AUC, but that is out of my price range at the moment.

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what you write makes perfect sense, but I assume in this case you will be better off with a private teacher than with a center where a certain curriculum is being followed.

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I noticed you went to that program that is sometimes advertised here, but from what I could see they were fairly intensive courses run over a short period and with working it was difficult for me to fit them in. You mentioned that you found them useful though, how were they? I also looked at ILI, but when I had time free they didn’t have any suitable courses. The difficulty at the moment is trying find a suitable female teacher, at the right price, without having to travel too far, who can teach second level functional linguistic skills! Any ideas?

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I also attended a fulltime course at the Fajr for a month, but that was about five years ago.

I know that finding a right teacher for whatever your needs are is quite difficult, so I'm afraid I can't give you any good ideas. When I first came here I had a teacher who - although we had agreed that he would teach me communication skills - didn't manage to teach me the most basic things for everyday life. After a few months(!) of studying with him two to three times a week I still wasn't able to even speak to a taxi driver!

Instead he went off in tangents about every single word he taught us, tried to explain complicated grammatical matters and didn't even have a book or other teaching material. I'm sure he's a great teacher if someone is interested in advanced Fusha or comparative Arabic literature or something like that, but for what I wanted he was completely the wrong person. Unfortunately I had paid a "unit" of 75 hours in advance.

After this frustrating experience I found a private teacher who was great and I finally made some progress. He taught me exactly what I wanted to learn, used a lot of different material from different sources and even wrote custom-made lessons for me if I wanted to learn something in particular. He does Ameyya and classical and I would recommend him but you wouldn't want to study with a man, right?

I am currently looking for a class in order to improve my conversation skills. I feel that for me a group would be more beneficial because I tend to become lazy and undisciplined if there's no competition.

Your second private teacher sounds just what I am looking for, but yes I would want a woman teacher. I thought the arabic4U was a daily course for two weeks, which was too much of a commitment for me at the time. What were the hours that you attended? Was it a short time due to the program or did you leave before the end? Did you feel it was at all beneficial or worthwhile?

The best thing that happened to me in foreign language terms was when I learnt some norwegian. The first time I went, everytime I tried to speak norwegian, they would answer me in english. The second time I went, they would peer at me in a peculiar manner and say 'er du dansk?' (are you danish - norwegian bokmal is quite like danish). My norwegian friend said 'shows how bad your accent is' - my answer was that as an english person trying to speak foreign - being mistaken for a different foreign but not english was fantastic! Then a bit later I went to Brussells and spent a whole day determined not to speak english - I muddled my way round in a mix of french german and norwegian and by the end of the day the shopkeepers were trying out their swedish greetings on me - obviously decided that was what I must be!

quote:

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Originally posted by newcomer:
Hi Dalia,

Your second private teacher sounds just what I am looking for, but yes I would want a woman teacher. I thought the arabic4U was a daily course for two weeks, which was too much of a commitment for me at the time. What were the hours that you attended? Was it a short time due to the program or did you leave before the end? Did you feel it was at all beneficial or worthwhile?

If I hear of a conversation class I’ll let you know, ammiyyah or fusha?

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Regarding the Arabic4U - they were very flexible, they seem to be putting their classes together according to the students' needs. As I said, I only went there a few times and my class consisted of only three people, so they would schedule the classes according to the students' wishes. They also have one on one lessons (and female teachers) so maybe it's worth looking into.

quote:

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Originally posted by Dalia:
Thanks a lot! I'm looking for ammeyah - intermediate level.

Regarding the Arabic4U - they were very flexible, they seem to be putting their classes together according to the students' needs. As I said, I only went there a few times and my class consisted of only three people, so they would schedule the classes according to the students' wishes. They also have one on one lessons (and female teachers) so maybe it's worth looking into.

Are you opposed to a male teacher in general or to a male teacher coming to your place?

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Have you tried ILI in Heliopolis for classes? They do ammiyyah too.

I'll maybe look into Arabic4U, and my preference in general is for a female teacher.

quote:

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Originally posted by newcomer:
Assalamu alaykum Snoozin!

It will take a while before you find your feet, but as I said just take it slowly and realize that you are entering a new world, so you will be a stranger for a long time until you find your place in it. I don’t know if you noticed, but we had another ES member say her shahadah recently, Karah_Mia and by chance she also lives near you too.

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quote:

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Originally posted by newcomer:
Assalamu alaykum Snoozin!

I had some time this morning so I checked out some links for you that I thought might be useful for you now: http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=378&dgn=2 (basic rulings for someone accepting Islam)
Nice articles about the importance of prayer: http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=363 http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=320
How to pray as a new Muslim: http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=22900&dgn=4 http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=3471&dgn=4 (this answer may use too many unfamiliar terms, but it gives a full fiqh answer)
This link has some good links about how to pray, the beginners flash program looks good: http://www.a2youth.com/islam/rituals.html
Generally these two pages have a lot of good links on many subjects: http://www.islamic-knowledge.com and http://sultan.org/#sunnah http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/law/fiqhussunnah/ (this may be a bit heavy for now, but is an excellent reference book on many aspects of worship and shows the different opinions of the different schools of thought)

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Thanks for the links! I was looking at the last one you posted just last night, and it has already confused me. It had some stuff that seemed contradictory, so I think I will stick with the basics for now and figure out the rest a bit later on.

quote:

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Originally posted by Medosa:
I know I am going to get a lot of flack here, but I am in support of your parents here... Arabic is not a useful language. In fact I would go as far as saying it should be a dead language...

It is very limited and limiting. For example the pathetic effort to translate Cunningham's manual of practical anatomy (Koshari may know), resulted in such howlers as, superficial fascia , being called " safaieeh motaraqreqah sateheyya" for those who may work it out in Arabic...he he he

It may have some beautiful aspects...I concede...but as a practical language in Science, Medicine, or Technology...it is sadly a total dead loss

I will not answer any hate mail on this topic.....specially if it is about Arabic being the language God spoke..etc...but any other OBJECTIVE debate , I will respond to..

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Not hate mail, but I think Arabic's important from a religious perspective at the very minimum, so shouldn't people be taught enough Arabic to understand the Qur'an?

Being a non-Arabic speaker who's trying to learn, all I can say is it seems very difficult. If I ever have a child, inshallah, he or she will grow up learning Arabic, even if he or she uses it only for religious purposes. Learning in childhood is so much easier...

As for scientific terminology, don't a lot of languages just adopt the term in the language of its discovery? I know computer folks do that a lot. Maybe not so practical for fields such as medicine.

quote:

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Originally posted by 7aya:
ngeg, thanks for your reply. i've also bought a new arabic english dictionary and i'm hoping it helps. inshallah i'm sure if i focus on trying to express myself in classical arabic, i will be able to do it, because elhamdullelah i already know how to read it.
medosa i have to disagree with you, because firstly i'm muslim and the koran is very beautiful for me. secondly, arabic is very creative and eloquent, after i started reading arabic books and poetry i felt that english is stale and boring, and thirdly, theres no proof wahtsoever that arabic is a dying language. there are millions of arabs who speak the language, and from what i undertand more and more people are signing up to learn arabic.
dalia, good for you for learning arabic. you are right, living in a country withiout knowing the language is such a barrier. thats why i wonder why so many foreigners live here for years without knowing arabic. good for you for trying to learn

best

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7aya, I'll check with my fiance to see if he knows who could help you with classical arabic. He used to work for Radio Cairo and he said they used classical arabic back then. Don't know about now.