quote:Originally posted by ExptinCAI: Having lived in both cities - hell yes. There is a huge difference. The worst looks in London cannot compare with the least-offensive ones in Cairo.
I think in the dark of the night the rapist doesn't care how attractive she is unless he follows a certain pattern (like he only goes for women with blonde hair etc.) in this case her hair color makes her attractive to be a possible victim.
[This message has been edited by Tigerlily (edited 13 October 2005).]
Here you are focusing on stranger rapes, which are not a large percentage of rapes. Most rapes happen when the perpetrator knows the victim and knows the victim quite well.
You are refering to the 6-8% of violent rapes that Court TV sensationalizes.
Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Troubles101: Hassancheb, Well at least we agree that dress can encourage something, but as for rape, you said that most of rape cases happen in victim's home but still most victims knew their rapists before being raped at home and the question remain why those victims were chosen between all people? I don't think we can give a complete guide for why someone may get raped,like no matter how cautious a person is, he or she can still be robbed but we are trying to understand some points that can play a rule sometimes in directing the rapist in choosing his victim. Speaking of rape cases where the raper chooses a weak victim, makes me wonder what influence the stander by which raper decide whether such a victim is in a weaker position than other and will give less resistance than others? He can pick young teens or kids as those may be afraid to report, but how about those wearing very provocative dresses? How many believe them to be absolute victims of rape when knowing the kind of dress and provocative behaviour they go by? according to surveys, most people will not find them irresponsible which is something makes their position weak plus the way they dress gives the raper a message that those women are more accepting of it than those who prefer to dress more decent...This is in case we are talking about a raper who is looking for a weak victim...But still not all rape cases are like that, many are about sex where the guy assume from the girl behaviour that she doesn't mind having sex with him and he push for it while the girl is drunk or he might assume that for her accepting to kiss him means she wants sex and he proceeded with it. Not all who committed rape are serial ones, I read a research before where many men admitted committing a rape or sexual assault but they didn't define it that way as they simply thought this is what the girl wanted just because she did something like kissing him. In other words, while no woman want to be raped yet sometimes what she does gives out a message that she is accepting of it specially when they are drunk with low resistance.
[This message has been edited by Troubles101 (edited 13 October 2005).]
Again you are completely obessed with the idea of stranger rapes which are less than 10% of all rapes.
You know Troubles you were raised in a society where rape is not reported nor is it understood. Overwhelmingly people of your society are obessed with stranger rapes and blaming women for the rapes.
Discussing this topic with you is a complete waste because you will not evaluate your prejudices and use logic or reason. You stick with what your culture has trained you think.
Having your head in the sand for this long must be comforting.
And mind you I know for a fact that the ministry of Justice within Egypt does not keep nor study their crime statistics, let alone have any uniform procedures for investigating a crime or prosecuting the perpetrator.
Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Great, Sono, that we are online at the same time. Yes you are right, I was focusing on these kind of cases. Now there are many others out and I mentioned that before - in most rape cases the victims knew their perpetrators - it surely didn't matter how these women looked like. And after Dalia survey statement would it also logically mean that if the woman is more self-confident she can have more success in avoiding the rape itself? Attractivity is NOT the reason of rape, it takes a vulnerable (usually a single) woman regardless of her looks, the opportunity of the "right" location and time and one sick mind that rapes are happening.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
And surely to commit rape is a shameful man thing. Or did you ever hear that a woman raped a guy?
Actually I found one case quickly on the net but I do have my doubts about it.
*******
Man 'gang-raped' by 3 women 24/08/2005 22:52 - (SA) Borrie la Grange
Johannesburg - A 30-year-old man was off to play pool when three women asked him to direct them to a hotel and he claims they raped him in turn after they had had drinks.
The man, from Roodepoort on the West Rand, was walking from his flat to an entertainment centre shortly after 17:00 on Sunday night when three women in a maroon BMW stopped him.
Captain Paula Nothnagel of the police said the women, aged between 20 and 30, asked him how to get to the Savoy Hotel.
"He explained, but they apparently insisted he should go with them to show them the way.
"He got into the car with them," she said.
On arriving at the hotel the women invited him for a drink.
After drinks and a chat, they asked him to show them where the Station Hotel was.
"On the way to the hotel, the driver suddenly changed direction and drove to an open piece of veld near the Durban Roodepoort Deep mine.
Kept gun on him all the time
"One of the women pulled out a gun and held up the man while the other two undressed.
"Then all three of them raped him in turn, with one of them keeping the gun pointed at him," said Nothnagel.
When they had finished, they forced the man back into the car and dropped him off in Main Ridge Road shortly before 02:00. He walked home and contacted the police on Monday.
Nothnagel said detectives from the police unit for family violence, child protection and sexual offences were still trying to trace the women.
[This message has been edited by Tigerlily (edited 13 October 2005).]
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: And surely to commit rape is a shameful man thing. Or did you ever hear that a woman raped a guy?
Actually I found one case quickly on the net but I do have my doubts about it.
*******
Yeah, that's a tough one to really believe...
In some places it's illegal to have sex with someone who is drunk or high, since they aren't really in the right state of mind to *consent.* But I don't know about this guy getting raped....
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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Hassancheb, Well at least we agree that dress can encourage something, but as for rape, you said that most of rape cases happen in victim's home but still most victims knew their rapists before being raped at home and the question remain why those victims were chosen between all people? I don't think we can give a complete guide for why someone may get raped,like no matter how cautious a person is, he or she can still be robbed but we are trying to understand some points that can play a rule sometimes in directing the rapist in choosing his victim. Speaking of rape cases where the raper chooses a weak victim, makes me wonder what influence the stander by which raper decide whether such a victim is in a weaker position than other and will give less resistance than others? He can pick young teens or kids as those may be afraid to report, but how about those wearing very provocative dresses? How many believe them to be absolute victims of rape when knowing the kind of dress and provocative behaviour they go by? according to surveys, most people will not find them irresponsible which is something makes their position weak plus the way they dress gives the raper a message that those women are more accepting of it than those who prefer to dress more decent...This is in case we are talking about a raper who is looking for a weak victim...But still not all rape cases are like that, many are about sex where the guy assume from the girl behaviour that she doesn't mind having sex with him and he push for it while the girl is drunk or he might assume that for her accepting to kiss him means she wants sex and he proceeded with it. Not all who committed rape are serial ones, I read a research before where many men admitted committing a rape or sexual assault but they didn't define it that way as they simply thought this is what the girl wanted just because she did something like kissing him. In other words, while no woman want to be raped yet sometimes what she does gives out a message that she is accepting of it specially when they are drunk with low resistance.
quote:Originally posted by sonomod: Again you are completely obessed with the idea of stranger rapes which are less than 10% of all rapes.
You know Troubles you were raised in a society where rape is not reported nor is it understood. Overwhelmingly people of your society are obessed with stranger rapes and blaming women for the rapes.
Discussing this topic with you is a complete waste because you will not evaluate your prejudices and use logic or reason. You stick with what your culture has trained you think.
Having your head in the sand for this long must be comforting.
And mind you I know for a fact that the ministry of Justice within Egypt does not keep nor study their crime statistics, let alone have any uniform procedures for investigating a crime or prosecuting the perpetrator.
Sono plz read what you're commenting on!
I said the following :
quote:you said that most of rape cases happen in victim's home but still most victims knew their rapists before being raped at home and the question remain why those victims were chosen between all people?
So I do acknoledge the fact that many of those rape cases happened by a friend, or a relative or someone the girl knew before. Read my post again!
As for reporting rape in Egypt, it happens but I agree many cases may not be reported but it's the same with your society where some statics said that only 5% of rape or attempted rape crimes are reported most likely because girls are afraid to go through the humilating process of being questioned and put under pressure...right?
posted
There was a rape case in Egypt which was discussed on a TV programme and they met the preparators who received death penalty, The guy who committed said that they kidnapped her from a group of men she was going with. They found her wearing a provocative dress and going out with other guys, so they assumed she is an easy target who wont report the case because of her behavior which will get her responsible...This is how some of those committing rape think. Her dress didn't make them think about rape of course but certainly in this case it played a key factor on them choosing her. those guys are more likely to choose one who is les likely to report the case because they think she will be afraid to be held responsible because of her uncommon behaviour and dress.
In many cases rapists don't choose their victims randomly, but rather ones they knew something about which makes them feel they are more likely to be accepting than others which is why almost half cases are by people the victims knew. What may make the rapist think the girl will be more accepting of it is her being under the influence of alcohol (again half cases reported were under influence of alcohol in the US) or provocative behaviour of the victim and thins include any kind of messages. Rapists are less likely to rape a woman who sounds very resistance in her behaviour and les accepting and a woman in decent dress I believe is is sending a loud high resistance message than one with bare breast...but yet again this is not the only factors playing key in rape, it may happen for no reason at all as well.
[This message has been edited by Troubles101 (edited 13 October 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: Yeah, that's a tough one to really believe...
In some places it's illegal to have sex with someone who is drunk or high, since they aren't really in the right state of mind to *consent.* But I don't know about this guy getting raped....
I think it was the FBI claims that said about 1 of each 10 men in the US was sexually assaulted or raped but most don't report because of the shame fear or because none takes it seriously.
posted
I know what your saying. Here in London, guys might smile and whistle and everyone laughs and thats that.
Hello my name is Helena and I live in London. I don’t agree with that, and I see a lot of true on what Anissa have written. Harassment in London does exist, its is just different than in Cairo. The main problem in UK is alcohol. Guys can be very polite and nice to you, but they drink they really cannot control themselves AT ALL, they become very violent, aggressive, and dangerous, and I personally think that its even more dangerous than in cairo, as in UK men are so polite and Gentlemen that you really cannot see the difference between the good and the bad. So you don’t feel like a piece of meat cause they are so nice, but you really have to learn how to read between the lines. And of course I do think in this case, if the girl is dress up, like going to night club, it does not help at all. I have a friend who has been raped in the street of London by a 3 young guys who were drunk, she just wanted to spend a night in the night club, and were juts looking for a taxi to go home.
I heard once on a TV show about sexual harassment that a victim had more chance to avoid the worse by taking the rapist by his feelings. It was a female psychiatrist that said it. She said that if the victim acted like a tough woman, very distant, she had more chance to get raped. If on the contrary the woman acted in a more tranquil way, showing no fear, and talking to the guy as an individual, then, the rapist could be remembered his mother and leave the victim getting away.
I know this is very theoretical and may be hard to apply in real case as panic comes in, but still, the psychiatrist said that it would apply on 90% on rapists that are still human.
Now girls i hope you avoid the 10% of the rapists that are desperate cases.
quote:Originally posted by Columbo: I hope this will be helpful.
I heard once on a TV show about sexual harassment that a victim had more chance to avoid the worse by taking the rapist by his feelings. It was a female psychiatrist that said it. She said that if the victim acted like a tough woman, very distant, she had more chance to get raped. If on the contrary the woman acted in a more tranquil way, showing no fear, and talking to the guy as an individual, then, the rapist could be remembered his mother and leave the victim getting away.
I know this is very theoretical and may be hard to apply in real case as panic comes in, but still, the psychiatrist said that it would apply on 90% on rapists that are still human.
Now girls i hope you avoid the 10% of the rapists that are desperate cases.
Maybe. I was always taught (can you believe I took a class on personal security/rape avoidance as a girl scout when I was 10 or 11 and still wasn't really sure what sex was all about?), I was taught that you should walk in a very confident manner and stare someone in the eye that gives you the creeps. A rapist, since he does feel really weak inside, isn't going to mess with an aggressive woman.
I was also told of stories where women talked themselves out of the bad situation. One woman was leaving a party and was confronted at her car. The rapist was about to force her into her car by knifepoint. She calmly looked at him and smiled and told him he was so handsome, he certainly didn't need to force himself on any woman. She'd go with him right now to a hotel. But she forgot her coat inside...wait one minute and she'll be back.
Dumbass fell for it while she was calling 911 inside the safe house....
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: Maybe. I was always taught (can you believe I took a class on personal security/rape avoidance as a girl scout when I was 10 or 11 and still wasn't really sure what sex was all about?), I was taught that you should walk in a very confident manner and stare someone in the eye that gives you the creeps. A rapist, since he does feel really weak inside, isn't going to mess with an aggressive woman.
quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: I was also told of stories where women talked themselves out of the bad situation. One woman was leaving a party and was confronted at her car. The rapist was about to force her into her car by knifepoint. She calmly looked at him and smiled and told him he was so handsome, he certainly didn't need to force himself on any woman. She'd go with him right now to a hotel. But she forgot her coat inside...wait one minute and she'll be back.
Dumbass fell for it while she was calling 911 inside the safe house....
God what a bunch of crap! Those teachers of yours should stop watching Sex & the City!!
quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: Maybe. I was always taught (can you believe I took a class on personal security/rape avoidance as a girl scout when I was 10 or 11 and still wasn't really sure what sex was all about?), I was taught that you should walk in a very confident manner and stare someone in the eye that gives you the creeps. A rapist, since he does feel really weak inside, isn't going to mess with an aggressive woman.
I was also told of stories where women talked themselves out of the bad situation. One woman was leaving a party and was confronted at her car. The rapist was about to force her into her car by knifepoint. She calmly looked at him and smiled and told him he was so handsome, he certainly didn't need to force himself on any woman. She'd go with him right now to a hotel. But she forgot her coat inside...wait one minute and she'll be back.
Dumbass fell for it while she was calling 911 inside the safe house....
it finally depends on what figure of mother the guy has: sometimes it's good to be aggressive but with some other it's preferable not to be. Each case is different from the other and should be studied so.
quote:Originally posted by MyKingdomForATaba2Koshari: Columbo are you Swiss? We have a house in Lugano!
I'm glad for you that you have a house in Lugano, it's really helpful for me to know it. More seriously no i am not but i got some family settled in geneva
quote:Originally posted by Columbo: I'm glad for you that you have a house in Lugano, it's really helpful for me to know it. More seriously no i am not but i got some family settled in geneva
No offense buddy! I thought we might be neighbours or so..
quote:Originally posted by Dalia: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Troubles101: [b] dressing in a provocative way while woman doesn't intened to be raped for it but is usually interpretated by rapers to be an invitation.
No, it's not. What you're saying shows that you haven't understood the main thing about rape – that it's about violence, not about sexual pleasure. There are studies that show that women who are regarded as more attractive are less likely to be raped then women who are less attractive ; one of the reasons for this is that attractive women mostly appear more self-confident. The raper gets his kick out of the victim's helplessness not because she's attractive or seductive; why do you think old women and children are often victims of rape?[/B][/QUOTE]
Absolutely. Rape is zero to do with attractiveness, dress or any outward signs and everything to do with power and subjugation. Having a drunken shag which you later regret and crying rape (which should be a severely punishable offence in my book)is NOT the same as actually being raped. Bitter experience. I know one anecdote doth not a proof make but I was known to my attacker, he was a work colleague of my boyfriend at the time, and he was 'punishing' my boyfriend for something. I was in jeans, jumper, boots. I am 1.77m and weighed about 75kg at the time - not exactly 'weak' looking. He was however ex-military, very tall and very fit and I could not fight him off.
[This message has been edited by catlover (edited 14 October 2005).]
quote:originally posted by Troubles101 Hassancheb, Well at least we agree that dress can encourage something, but as for rape, you said that most of rape cases happen in victim's home but still most victims knew their rapists before being raped at home and the question remain why those victims were chosen between all people?
That’s the reason I said “opportunist rape similar to the situations in date rape cases”. Those type of perpetrators are not rapist in the “serial” sense, but opportunist that saw a chance to take advantage of a woman while she is vulnerable, which make several men, potential rapist, as women here are always dressing sexy! How many times do I have to repeat 'desensitized'.
He may not have even forced himself on her with physical violence, but tried things like drink spiking, that drug “ecstasy”, or the fact that she was already drunk and couldn’t fight him off. You hear about these types of cases with Professional athletes and important business men, when the women claimed she said “NO, and NO means NO” and in this case it’s defined as rape. But not only did she provoke him by dressing sexy, she also allowed him into her home, or went to a hotel or dorm room with him when she should have known his intentions, but again NO means NO, in legal terms anyway.
I was talking about the cases when men break into someone’s home, and forcefully rape her violently, there is no sexual attraction. Not the cases when women do things that cloud the judgment of men, playing on their weak visual sensibilities, teasing him in the heat of the moment, but not necessarily willing to go “all the way”, a man completely aroused sexually and then she says NO, may then become forceful. This is a different matter, this is an opportunist rapist. And yes, a lot of this goes unreported because sometimes the girl may feel that no one would believe her because she left with him voluntarily. She may not have consented to sex, but she did consent to being in a room with him.
But altogether, not to get away from the original point of sexual harassment, it rarely occurs in countries like the USA by dress mode alone. This country has too much sexual freedom, and it’s entirely too easy for young men to release pent up sexual desires by willing young ladies, while they may have a difficult time doing so in Egypt, because casual sex is illegal. Young boys here having sex several times a day, is rarely interested in every girl that passes him with a skirt on. It’s usually the little horny “not getting any” in the prime of puberty that are the prime architects of sexual harassment in Egypt.
quote:Originally posted by catlover: Absolutely. Rape is zero to do with attractiveness, dress or any outward signs and everything to do with power and subjugation. Having a drunken shag which you later regret and crying rape (which should be a severely punishable offence in my book)is NOT the same as actually being raped. Bitter experience. I know one anecdote doth not a proof make but I was known to my attacker, he was a work colleague of my boyfriend at the time, and he was 'punishing' my boyfriend for something. I was in jeans, jumper, boots. I am 1.77m and weighed about 75kg at the time - not exactly 'weak' looking. He was however ex-military, very tall and very fit and I could not fight him off.
[This message has been edited by catlover (edited 14 October 2005).]
Wow catlover!
I am sorry to hear about your experience, I pray that I am never raped! You are right, it doesn't matter how you're dressed, rapist have psychological disorders, a lot of anger and rage, and sex is their way of releasing anger, not "gaining" sexual pleasure. Date rape, or opportunistic rape, is different, and society tends to be less sympathetic of the victims for allowing herself to be put in these types of positions, getting drunk going to a hotel with some guy, and then changing your mind. I got your point!
posted
A Italian buys a round of drinks for all in the bar because, he announces, his wife has just produced, "a typical Italian" baby boy weighing 25 pounds.
Congratulations showered him from all around, and many exclamations of, "WOW!" was heard. A woman faints due to sympathy pains.
Two weeks later, he returns to the bar. The bartender says, "Say, you're the father of the typical Italian baby that weighed 25 pounds at birth. How much does he weigh now?"
The proud father answers, "Seventeen pounds."
The bartender is puzzled, concerned, "Why? What happened? He already weighed 25 pounds at birth."
The Italian father takes a slow swig from his long-neck Lone Star beer, wipes his lips on his shirt sleeve, leans in to the bartender and proudly says, "Had him circumcised."
quote:Originally posted by catlover: Absolutely. Rape is zero to do with attractiveness, dress or any outward signs and everything to do with power and subjugation. Having a drunken shag which you later regret and crying rape (which should be a severely punishable offence in my book)is NOT the same as actually being raped. Bitter experience. I know one anecdote doth not a proof make but I was known to my attacker, he was a work colleague of my boyfriend at the time, and he was 'punishing' my boyfriend for something. I was in jeans, jumper, boots. I am 1.77m and weighed about 75kg at the time - not exactly 'weak' looking. He was however ex-military, very tall and very fit and I could not fight him off.
[This message has been edited by catlover (edited 14 October 2005).]
I'm sorry for what happwened to you.
To the main topic, I was not saying that sexy dress brings a raping thoughts to those rapists , the idea is already there and I agree, a big part of it is about power but my point was that such a kind of sexy dress makes woman an easier choice for rapists than others, beside any kind of behaviour that shows a sign of low resistance (like alcohol) or looks more accepting of it (like sexy dress)
To give a clue from a website which discusses rape myths :
quote:MYTH: Some people ask to be sexually assaulted by their behavior or they way they dress.
FACT: This is one of the most prevalent and powerful myths. It asks us to find the cause of assault in the victimÕs behavior or choices. No one asks or wants to be raped or assaulted, just as no one asks to have their car stolen, even if they forget and leave the keys in the ignition, be robbed or hit by a drunk driver. Sexual assault is always the responsibility of the perpetrator and never the responsibility of the victim. While some behaviors we choose may put us at some risk, they are only risky when there are offenders who are ready to take advantage of someone who is vulnerable. How someone dresses, where they go, what they do, or who they are in a relationship with is never justification for sexual assault.
I agree with most of what being said above specially the part I highlighted in bold which agrees with my point that while a woman wearing sexy cloths doesn't want to be raped yet she makes herself vulnerable to it by such a behaviour.
[This message has been edited by Troubles101 (edited 15 October 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Corvinous: A Italian buys a round of drinks for all in the bar because, he announces, his wife has just produced, "a typical Italian" baby boy weighing 25 pounds.
Congratulations showered him from all around, and many exclamations of, "WOW!" was heard. A woman faints due to sympathy pains.
Two weeks later, he returns to the bar. The bartender says, "Say, you're the father of the typical Italian baby that weighed 25 pounds at birth. How much does he weigh now?"
The proud father answers, "Seventeen pounds."
The bartender is puzzled, concerned, "Why? What happened? He already weighed 25 pounds at birth."
The Italian father takes a slow swig from his long-neck Lone Star beer, wipes his lips on his shirt sleeve, leans in to the bartender and proudly says, "Had him circumcised."
If you don't like this thread don't post.
Shows your insensitivity towards women completely.
And that isn't a agreeable trait in a guy.
Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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