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TEHRAN (Reuters) - Iran expressed surprise on Sunday about international condemnation of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's remarks regarding the Holocaust and Israel, and accused the West of not tolerating differences of opinion.
The United Nations Security Council and many world leaders have deplored Ahmadinejad's comments, in which he expressed doubt that the Holocaust happened and suggested Israel be moved to Europe.
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Is he just being inflammatory or is there a significant number of Arabs/Persians/Muslims who think the Holocaust never occurred? Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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I think a trip to Germany and Poland to visit the Nazi concentration camps from WWII would get him convinced. But hey, I will not invite him, what an unpleasant and ignorant person holding a job as a president.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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I'm always shocked when I hear negationists speaking. How can they doubt? I totally agree with you Tiger. Have you ever been to Auschwitz? I've been there once, and can't stop thinking about it.
Posts: 213 | From: Paris/ Le Caire | Registered: May 2005
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We all know about Sabra and Shatila, but does it make Hollocaust not exist???
Posts: 213 | From: Paris/ Le Caire | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by EFLVirgo: I've been to Sabra and Shatila and can't stop thinking about it either.
I wonder how many people in the world KNOW it even occured.
Probably few Americans know about it.
Yes, it was horrible...
But I think *denial* of an event is more sinister than ignorance of an event.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Yes, it's true, so many people don't know nothing about Holocaust. And others refuse to believe that such thing could happened. A lot of people among us, feeling cosy in their warm lifes, choose to ignore the existence of Holocaust. Maybe we sould do "Schindler's list" and "Devil 's arithmetique" compulsory, at least for basic understandings.
Posts: 1744 | From: Romania | Registered: Dec 2005
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Because i seriously doubt those kind of people would read Anne Frank's dairy, or visit the Holocaust Memorial Museum.
Posts: 1744 | From: Romania | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
I totally get the Iranian president's STRONG opposition to Israel's policies...but when he calls the Holocaust *an opinion,* any argument he has just loses all credibility.
Whatever happened to discretion in politics? He can *think* anything he likes, but if he expects to be a player in foreign policy and actually effect some change, he needs to *speak* differently.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: I totally get the Iranian president's STRONG opposition to Israel's policies...but when he calls the Holocaust *an opinion,* any argument he has just loses all credibility.
Whatever happened to discretion in politics? He can *think* anything he likes, but if he expects to be a player in foreign policy and actually effect some change, he needs to *speak* differently.
its a political joke snoozin. and dont think im supporting Ahmadinejad's remarks , im only analyzing the situation.
the Iranian president remarks were foolish , but let's see the other side.
Now everyone including ES members believe in the Holocaust - and that it was done by Hitler -Germany.
while the palastenians are paying the price. while palastenians living the new Holocaust. while palastenians screaming for help. while zionists forgot their Holocaust and who caused it.
isn't it ironic when people cry for the WW-II Holocaust , and ignore 2005 Holocaust?
or is it a Holocaust to kill the jewsh. and it is justice to kill arabs?
Posts: 817 | From: Egypt | Registered: Jul 2005
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Now everyone including ES members believe in the Holocaust - and that it was done by Hitler -Germany.
while the palastenians are paying the price. while palastenians living the new Holocaust. while palastenians screaming for help. while zionists forgot their Holocaust and who caused it.
isn't it ironic when people cry for the WW-II Holocaust , and ignore 2005 Holocaust?
or is it a Holocaust to kill the jewsh. and it is justice to kill arabs? [/QB]
Thank you Humanized... [that's a nice and polite way to reply better than how I would have worded it ] At least some people are awake, and not under the spell of zoinist
Wake up people please Posts: 2457 | From: U | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Humanized: its a political joke snoozin. and dont think im supporting Ahmadinejad's remarks , im only analyzing the situation.
the Iranian president remarks were foolish , but let's see the other side.
Now everyone including ES members believe in the Holocaust - and that it was done by Hitler -Germany.
while the palastenians are paying the price. while palastenians living the new Holocaust. while palastenians screaming for help. while zionists forgot their Holocaust and who caused it.
isn't it ironic when people cry for the WW-II Holocaust , and ignore 2005 Holocaust?
or is it a Holocaust to kill the jewsh. and it is justice to kill arabs?
I understand your point, of course. But for the Iranian president to *deny* the occurrence of the Holocaust does not in any way get people to wake up and see the tragic treatment and murder of Palestinians. Instead, it makes him (or anyone else) who denies the Holocaust look like a buffoon, and *everything* he says after that is doubtful.
A statement like that may be cool posturing to please his constituents, but does he want to be popular with his countrymen or does he want to somehow help the Palestinians? He says stuff like this, he doesn't need the West to render him ineffectual, he does it himself. Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by K7: Thank you Humanized... [that's a nice and polite way to reply better than how I would have worded it ] At least some people are awake, and not under the spell of zoinist
Wake up people please
Has it ever occurred to you that some of the anti-zionist things you read are in themselves propaganda?
The truth *always* is somewhere in the middle...
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Automatic For The People: [/QB]
How can you say that when every human being views things with some degree of relativity?
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by K7: Has it occured to you what you actually know about zionism is actually propganada from zionismt themselves
In this "information age", there is too much information...the truth is hidden, not in the middle, sorry
Of course there is zionist propaganda. I'm not disputing that for a moment. But does the fact that zionist propaganda exist somehow entirely negate the possibility of propaganda from the other side?
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: I understand your point, of course. But for the Iranian president to *deny* the occurrence of the Holocaust does not in any way get people to wake up and see the tragic treatment and murder of Palestinians. Instead, it makes him (or anyone else) who denies the Holocaust look like a buffoon, and *everything* he says after that is doubtful.
A statement like that may be cool posturing to please his constituents, but does he want to be popular with his countrymen or does he want to somehow help the Palestinians? He says stuff like this, he doesn't need the West to render him ineffectual, he does it himself.
no one will help the palestenians no matter what.
is his sarcastic comment about the Holocaust more important or the rising questions about why zionists creating another Holocaust?
people believe in double standards when it comes to jewsh. ( that was his message )
Posts: 817 | From: Egypt | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Humanized: is his sarcastic comment about the Holocaust more important or the rising questions about why zionists creating another Holocaust?
people believe in double standards when it comes to jewsh. ( that was his message )
He could have said it in a more effective manner. What do people remember about his message? Palestine gets lost from the message again.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Humanized: is his sarcastic comment about the Holocaust more important or the rising questions about why zionists creating another Holocaust?
people believe in double standards when it comes to jewsh. ( that was his message )
He could have said it in a more effective manner. What do people remember about his message? Palestine gets lost from the message again.
The world ignores who says it in effective manner.
and each prisedent has the right to tell silly jokes from time to time. dont you think ? (this is what the west/Political Gods are teaching us today)Posts: 817 | From: Egypt | Registered: Jul 2005
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The West helped create Israel because it (the West) was still highly anti-Semitic. It wanted all the Jews to leave Britain and elsewhere and go to Israel.
Why we continue to support Israel, I have no idea, other than to have an ally geographically close to the oil... Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by K7: Has it occured to you what you actually know about zionism is actually propganada from zionismt themselves
In this "information age", there is too much information...the truth is hidden, not in the middle, sorry
Of course there is zionist propaganda. I'm not disputing that for a moment. But does the fact that zionist propaganda exist somehow entirely negate the possibility of propaganda from the other side?
No, it does not negate the other side...
What is propaganda? Marketing? Persuasion? Brain-washing? Hypnotsosis?
Throughout the ages, Human naturally get influnced by others some ways or another, in most cases a person gives an influence to someone else, unintenionally....
Let me expplain to you one thing....
What the zionism do/have is a greater weapon than tanks, guns, etc etc... they have something called systamtic propagana....
This never existed before becuse there was just a king who ruled, ad everyone obeyed...
people are so "informed" today, especiaull westerners, they have "libraries" they went to "school" and had an "education"..
yet mainstream media, many large coperates, basically the economy would be owned/runed by zionist....
and people who influnces a nations economy will have more influence than its resident/voters... with their control over goverment, they can influence the school curricula... dont you see how the Holcoust is so much emphasized in most school as if that is the only thing that ever happened in history..
So with its systamtic propganda zionist will always have the upperhand....
the only way to defeat zionism is to educate people about them..... i'll make that my mission once i graduate;)
Posts: 2457 | From: U | Registered: Jun 2005
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I agree entirely with you K. The zionist propaganda is much better organized, and much better financed than anything I've seen from the Palestinian viewpoint.
It doesn't mean zionism will *always* have the upper hand. I'm guessing I'm older than you by a significant number of years... But American attitudes in general are very different than they were 20 years ago. There are more and more people becoming discontent with what Israel is doing. This change is too slow...but it *is* changing.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: [QB] He could have said it in a more effective manner. ]
He should have hired me to write his speaches
quote: The West helped create Israel because it (the West) was still highly anti-Semitic. It wanted all the Jews to leave Britain and elsewhere and go to Israel.
not west....zions....
quote:
Why we continue to support Israel, I have no idea, other than to have an ally geographically close to the oil
read what i wrote above... zionist ->control economy -> control govt -> control people's mind....
This is why you have no idea
quote: and much better financed than anything I've seen from the Palestinian viewpoint
palestinian viewpoint
quote: But American attitudes in general are very different than they were 20 years ago.
yes I have addressed this already..and the reason for this is....
quote: the only way to defeat zionism is to educate people about them.....
Hopefully you will join this *change* once you convert to the reality of the truths Posts: 2457 | From: U | Registered: Jun 2005
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No, many in the West itself were anti-semitic. They didn't care about Zionism. Zionism merely fulfilled a wish for them. Many were for *any* idea that would make their Jewish neighbors move away. Jews were hated by many at the end of WWII, and certainly before. Banned from owning property in some circumstances, banned from going to certain colleges and universities, banned from country clubs and other private clubs. Banned from PUBLIC beaches.
I was taught by my mother to stay away from Jews, and that was as recent as the 70s.
And because they tried so hard to make me hate...I learned that discrimination against any group is wrong....not in the least because someday your own group might be the object of such discrimination.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by K7: But forget history.....worry about the present, are you going to continue and let your mind blindly follow zionism, or do you want to wake up
Please give me an example of how I blindly follow zionism Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
interesting i was just telling my fiance today that i want to visit the holocaust museum in sydney. i wanted to visit the last time i was in sydney, but unfortunatly it was closed. it really upsets me when people deny the existence of the holocaust. some arabs angry at what the zionists are doing to the palestinians lash out that the holocaust never existed. what they don't understand is that such statments make them look stupid, and earn them the disgust of people who otherwise would have been sympathetic!!! there is no way in hell the holocaust didn't happen! surprisingly many people are now saying that the srebrenica massacre in bosnia didn't happen either.
what i don't understand is why dont the arabs or muslims, follow the jews and remind the world of their own suffering. i mean why don't the palestinians have a museum or a memorial, why don't the bosnians raise awareness of the massacre of srebrenica, why don't the algerians remind the world of what the french did to them? why did the egyptians let the world forget about the dunshway massacre and the millions of other atrocities that took places during the decades of occupation?!!
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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There is a lot of similarity between the KKK/Nazism and Islam.
-The members of the KKK are supremacists and think the white race is superior. Muslims are also supremacists and think Muslims are superior.
-They base their cause on hate and especially the hatred of the Jews. Islam is also based on hate and especially the hatred of the Jews.
-They consider Jews and nonwhites, whom they refer to as "mud races," to be the "natural enemies" of the white race. Muslims also consider the Jews and non-Muslims whom they refer to as “kafirs” to be the natural enemies of Islam.
-They attract mainly young white males, many incarcerated; the group also courts women and children. Islam also attracts people among prisoners. They also court women and children.
-The motto of the Creativity Movement, which is a brand of KKK is "RaHoWa" (Racial Holy War), The motto of Islam is Jihad, religious holy war.
-They want to subdue the rest of mankind and become the master race. Muslims also want to subdue the rest of mankind and rule over them.Posts: 524 | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: TEHRAN (Reuters) - Iran expressed surprise on Sunday about international condemnation of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's remarks regarding the Holocaust and Israel, and accused the West of not tolerating differences of opinion.
The United Nations Security Council and many world leaders have deplored Ahmadinejad's comments, in which he expressed doubt that the Holocaust happened and suggested Israel be moved to Europe.
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Is he just being inflammatory or is there a significant number of Arabs/Persians/Muslims who think the Holocaust never occurred?
Actually the questioning of the holocaust was mainly a western idea by some few western historians which found a good reaction by many Arab. Those some western historians were usually persecuted for questioning it and that's probably what Ahmadi refered to by speaking of European intolerance where questioning the number of those murdered can be a crime in some countries.
It's funny when I look at the whole picture, some european did a crime and to clean their hands they help persecuted ones to take another ppl's country and to do a similar type of holocaust and neither of them were called terrorists but those who didn't have a part in the first crime, and the 2nd was against them are now being called terrorists!
Why everyone seem to have the right to question what happened to palestinians and go as far as calling them terrorists and none is allowed to even question the number of those killed in jewish holocaust?
Do some poeple for example know that when Israel took over Sinai in 1956 , soldiers with microphones wnet around calling on men between age 16 and older to go to specific place and warned to kill those who wont go? Those who went there didn't come back and later their skulls were found in a very dramatic way which the world was absent from but since Europ seem to have that feeling of guilt towards Jews, they wont ever play just in this neither America of course.
Personally I find it inhuman and useless to try to minimize the amount of a crime done to other people but also it's very inhuman to use it as a card to gain financial and political profit every now and then which happens all the time by Israel.
Posts: 1732 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by 7ayat: interesting i was just telling my fiance today that i want to visit the holocaust museum in sydney. i wanted to visit the last time i was in sydney, but unfortunatly it was closed. it really upsets me when people deny the existence of the holocaust. some arabs angry at what the zionists are doing to the palestinians lash out that the holocaust never existed. what they don't understand is that such statments make them look stupid, and earn them the disgust of people who otherwise would have been sympathetic!!! there is no way in hell the holocaust didn't happen! surprisingly many people are now saying that the srebrenica massacre in bosnia didn't happen either.
what i don't understand is why dont the arabs or muslims, follow the jews and remind the world of their own suffering. i mean why don't the palestinians have a museum or a memorial, why don't the bosnians raise awareness of the massacre of srebrenica, why don't the algerians remind the world of what the french did to them? why did the egyptians let the world forget about the dunshway massacre and the millions of other atrocities that took places during the decades of occupation?!!
I think the only way to get the west to support the palestinians is to stress on the link between the Palestinians suffering and the European participation in helping Jews to take other people land by force. give them the guilt feeling everynow and then , bring those who gave weapons to Israeli and allowed Palestinians masscres in courts (their memory of course) and ask for compensation and admition of guilt. This seem to be the only way for them to react positivly. They unfortunatly feel distant from anything happened to palestinians and feel very guilty and close as to anything happned to jews in the past and even now!
But this is all political games which I hate
Posts: 1732 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by 7ayat: interesting i was just telling my fiance today that i want to visit the holocaust museum in sydney. i wanted to visit the last time i was in sydney, but unfortunatly it was closed. it really upsets me when people deny the existence of the holocaust. some arabs angry at what the zionists are doing to the palestinians lash out that the holocaust never existed. what they don't understand is that such statments make them look stupid, and earn them the disgust of people who otherwise would have been sympathetic!!! there is no way in hell the holocaust didn't happen! surprisingly many people are now saying that the srebrenica massacre in bosnia didn't happen either.
what i don't understand is why dont the arabs or muslims, follow the jews and remind the world of their own suffering. i mean why don't the palestinians have a museum or a memorial, why don't the bosnians raise awareness of the massacre of srebrenica, why don't the algerians remind the world of what the french did to them? why did the egyptians let the world forget about the dunshway massacre and the millions of other atrocities that took places during the decades of occupation?!!
I think the only way to get the west to support the palestinians is to stress on the link between the Palestinians suffering and the European participation in helping Jews to take other people land by force. give them the guilt feeling everynow and then , bring those who gave weapons to Israeli and allowed Palestinians masscres in courts (their memory of course) and ask for compensation and admition of guilt. This seem to be the only way for them to react positivly. They unfortunatly feel distant from anything happened to palestinians and feel very guilty and close as to anything happned to jews in the past and even now!
But this is all political games which I hate
yes i really agree with that! whats ironic is that many of the torture methods used on the palestinians now were the same ones used on the jews in WW 2!
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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''It's funny when I look at the whole picture, some european did a crime and to clean their hands they help persecuted ones to take another ppl's country and to do a similar type of holocaust''
The mind boggles at the comparison. How do those who accuse Israel of genocidal policies vis a vis the Palestinians reconcile those accusations with the exploding Palestinian population? How do they explain the rapid growth the Palestinian economy after 1967, the drastic drop in infant mortality, the rising levels of literacy? How does the security fence built to keep out Palestinian terrorists morph in the Western imagination into the barbed wire fences around the killing camps designed to prevent Jews from escaping? How does the inconvenience, even the great inconvenience, of security checkpoints-again necessitated by Palestinian terrorism –become the equivalent of the Nazi gas chambers?
During the 1970’s, the West Bank and Gaza was the fourth fastest growing economy in the world, and from the onset of Israeli rule until the signing of the Oslo Accords, the per capita GNP of Palestinians increased tenfold. Between 1968 and 2000, infant mortality dropped from 60 per 1,000 births to 15, and life expectancy increased from 48 to 72. All these figures were way ahead of neighboring Arab countries, and all positive indicators plummeted after Oslo.
If Israel were embarked on genocide against the Palestinians, it is making a manifestly poor job of it –indeed an inexplicably poor job, given Israel’s overwhelming military and technological superiority.
Posts: 524 | Registered: Dec 2005
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Where is Ahmadinejad's outcry against the genocide in Dafur, Algeria etc. Are the Sudanese people worth less than the Palestinian people? More people have been killed in the Sudan civil war than any war since the second world war.
The following was taken from an article entitled:Sudan's Slaves by Michael Coren, posted at Frontpage magazine.com
"Women and children abducted in slave raids are roped by the neck or strapped to animals and then marched north. Along the way, many women and girls are repeatedly gang-raped. Children who will not be silent are shot on the spot. In the north, slaves are either kept by individual militia soldiers or sold in markets. Boys work as livestock herders, forced to sleep with the animals they care for".
"Some who try to escape have their Achilles tendons cut to hamper their ability to run. Masters typically use women and girls as domestics and concubines, cleaning by day and serving the master sexually by night. Survivors report being called "Abeed" (black slave), enduring daily beatings, and receiving awful food. Masters also strip slaves of their religious and cultural identities, giving them Arabic names and forcing them to pray as Muslims."
"Another says. "Families were broken up, with children sometimes murdered in front of their mothers as a warning and because they were too much trouble. We cried out to the West, to the countries who said they believed in human rights, but they were indifferent to our agony."
Posts: 524 | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Fran: ... How does the security fence built to keep out Palestinian terrorists ... ... [/QB]
If you tried to do the oppsoite it's a criminal offence in Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Israel, Lithuania, Poland, Romania, Slovakia and Switzerland, and is punishable by fines and jail sentences.
quote:Originally posted by Troubles101: I think the only way to get the west to support the palestinians is to stress on the link between the Palestinians suffering and the European participation in helping Jews to take other people land by force. give them the guilt feeling everynow and then , bring those who gave weapons to Israeli and allowed Palestinians masscres in courts (their memory of course) and ask for compensation and admition of guilt. This seem to be the only way for them to react positivly. They unfortunatly feel distant from anything happened to palestinians and feel very guilty and close as to anything happned to jews in the past and even now!
But this is all political games which I hate
Trust me, we feel guilty! At least I do. But I don't think we can expect a humane response from leaders like Bush. He seems to be as unfeeling as anyone I've ever seen. Money and power mean more to him than human lives.
However, any collective guilt we (US) felt about the Holocaust is diminishing...
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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The United Nations Security Council and many world leaders have deplored Ahmadinejad's comments, in which he expressed doubt that the Holocaust happened and suggested Israel be moved to Europe.
posted
actually what the arabs all fail to understand is that no one will help them only for their kind hearts or their good looks!
the jews didn't wait around begging for people's mercy, they have worked hard to sell the west the guilt trip and to take full control over the western decision making. we are doing nothing to help ourselves except for our daily prayer to allah that a miracle falls on us from above that wipes off the infidel west and stops its discrimination against us and it's siding with israel. this is not what the jews have done, they've helped themselves when the entire world hated them and discreminated against them.. the notion that america and the west are responsible for the realization of israel is a total misconception, not because it didn't happen but because the west was only a tool in the hands of the jews.. the jews actually deserve to be credited for being able to control the west to serve their purposes after this long legacy of hatred. now look at the muslims and how they managed to become the world's worst enemy in only few years and they immaturely continue their antisocial behaviour thinking this will one day grant them victory over the jews, while the jews are cool and calm and they use their brains to think, plan and plot. to them it doesn't matter how they do it as long as they do it.. to us it is more important to have a fight over how to do everything thinking we all must do things the same way.. we, arabs/muslims, are ready to spend the rest of our lives unto the end of the world arguing: should we say alsalamoo alaykom to non muslims, should women drive or not, should we use only the right hand for eating, should women wear hijab or niqab, should men wear a silver or a platinum wedding ring, should we circumcize women.. etc. because this is what matters to us the most, this is what we'll be doing for our entire future while the jews are having all their hands full in more serious stuff such as building a country out of nothing, taking control over the world's one and only superpower, acquiring a nuclear bomb, selling the terrorist muslim's image to the entire world and even worse: reconciling christianity to judaism and uniting their fates against their maniacal muslim enemies forever! and while we are arrogantly demanding the west to wipe israel from the map and foolishly denying known facts as the mere existance of the holocaust (not even the exaggeration of which), the jews have made it an indisputable reality and have made merely questioning it a taboo or even a crime same time as they are remorselessly practicing a smaller version of it against other people everyday, and that's not all there is.. they have succeeded to drive the stupid arabs to the edge and had them committing suicide, blowing themselves and innocent civilians up along with evey trace of sympathy towards them left in the western world. yes, no one will give a shite about the muslims and arabs because they are fcuking terroists who don't really deserve sympathy and they are doing every effort to prove it to the west each and everyday. at the end of the day, the jews have made their point and passed their message across while we have fcuked up.. as usual!
Posts: 956 | From: nowhere | Registered: Sep 2005
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It's so painfull. Yes, I "believe" it.Members of my familly was at the "camp".My grandad's brother -an officer- spent his winter in the cold water bucket in Germany. Illness later. Australia didn't help. My grandmum was employed by Nazists as a child. There is deep need to talk about it and avoid it.
Posts: 810 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by misfit: to us it is more important to have a fight over how to do everything thinking we all must do things the same way.. we, arabs/muslims, are ready to spend the rest of our lives unto the end of the world arguing: should we say alsalamoo alaykom to non muslims, should women drive or not, should we use only the right hand for eating, should women wear hijab or niqab, should men wear a silver or a platinum wedding ring, should we circumcize women.. etc.
Islam’s Forsaken Renaissance Mahathir bin Mohamad
Children often play a game where they sit in a circle. One whispers something to his neighbor, who then whispers that information to the next child, and so on, around the circle. By the time the last child whispers the information to the first, it is totally different from what was originally said.
Something like that seems to have happened within Islam. The Prophet of Islam, Muhammad, brought one – and only one – religion. Yet today we have perhaps a thousand religions that all claim to be Islam.
Divided by their different interpretations, Muslims do not play the role they once did in the world; instead, they are weakened and victimized. The Shia/Sunni schism is so deep that each side condemns followers of the other as apostates, kafir. The belief that the other’s religion is not Islam, and its followers not Muslim, has underpinned internecine wars in which millions have died – and continue to die.
Even among the Sunnis and Shias there are further divisions. The Sunnis have four imams and the Shias have twelve; their teachings all differ. Then there are other divisions, including the Druze, the Alawites, and the Wahabis.
We are also taught by our ulamas (religious instructors) that their teachings must not be questioned. Islam is a faith. It must be believed. Logic and reason play no part in it. But what is it that we must believe when each branch of Islam thinks the other one is wrong? The Koran, after all, is one book, not two or three, or a thousand.
According to the Koran, a Muslim is anyone who bears witness that “there is no God (Allah) but Allah, and that Muhammad is his Rasul (Messenger).” If no other qualification is added, then all those who subscribe to these precepts must be regarded as Muslims. But because we Muslims like to add qualifications that often derive from sources other than the Koran, our religion’s unity has been broken.
But perhaps the greatest problem is the progressive isolation of Islamic scholarship – and much of Islamic life – from the rest of the modern world. We live in an age of science in which people can see around corners, hear and see things happening in outer space, and clone animals. And all of these things seem to contradict our belief in the Koran.
This is so because those who interpret the Koran are learned only in religion, in its laws and practices, and thus are usually unable to understand today’s scientific miracles. The fatwas (legal opinions concerning Islamic law) that they issue appear unreasonable and cannot be accepted by those with scientific knowledge.
One learned religious teacher, for example, refused to believe that a man had landed on the moon. Others assert that the world was created 2,000 years ago. The age of the universe and its size measured in light years – these are things that the purely religiously trained ulamas cannot comprehend.
This failure is largely responsible for the sad plight of so many Muslims. Today’s oppression, the killings and the humiliations of Muslims, occurs because we are weak, unlike the Muslims of the past. We can feel victimized and criticize the oppressors, but to stop them we need to look at ourselves. We must change for our own good. We cannot ask our detractors to change, so that Muslims benefit.
So what do we need to do? In the past, Muslims were strong because they were learned. Muhammad’s injunction was to read, but the Koran does not say what to read. Indeed, there was no “Muslim scholarship” at the time, so to read meant to read whatever was available. The early Muslims read the works of the great Greek scientists, mathematicians, and philosophers. They also studied the works of the Persians, the Indians, and the Chinese.
The result was a flowering of science and mathematics. Muslim scholars added to the body of knowledge and developed new disciplines, such as astronomy, geography, and new branches of mathematics. They introduced numerals, enabling simple and limitless calculations.
But around the fifteenth century, the learned in Islam began to curb scientific study. They began to study religion alone, insisting that only those who study religion – particularly Islamic jurisprudence – gain merit in the afterlife. The result was intellectual regression at the very moment that Europe began embracing scientific and mathematical knowledge.
And so, as Muslims were intellectually regressing, Europeans began their renaissance, developing improved ways of meeting their needs, including the manufacture of weapons that eventually allowed them to dominate the world.
By contrast, Muslims fatally weakened their ability to defend themselves by neglecting, even rejecting, the study of allegedly secular science and mathematics, and this myopia remains a fundamental source of the oppression suffered by Muslims today. Many Muslims still condemn the founder of modern Turkey, Mustafa Kamal, because he tried to modernize his country. But would Turkey be Muslim today without Ataturk? Mustafa Kamal’s clear-sightedness saved Islam in Turkey and saved Turkey for Islam.
Failure to understand and interpret the true and fundamental message of the Koran has brought only misfortune to Muslims. By limiting our reading to religious works and neglecting modern science, we destroyed Islamic civilization and lost our way in the world.
The Koran says that “Allah will not change our unfortunate situation unless we make the effort to change it.” Many Muslims continue to ignore this and, instead, merely pray to Allah to save us, to bring back our lost glory. But the Koran is not a talisman to be hung around the neck for protection against evil. Allah helps those who improve their minds.
Mahathir bin Mohamad was Prime Minister of Malaysia from 1981-2003.
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better than how I would have worded it ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
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But American attitudes in general are very different than they were 20 years ago. There are more and more people becoming discontent with what Israel is doing. This change is too slow...but it *is* changing.
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