Egyptians argue about football more than anything else,and they spend the rest of their time watching video clips and movies. I doubt arguing about how to pray is done even by 1% of the Egyptian population! in fact Egyptian are mostly sufi like who believe it's all in the heart as to how to pray and they don't like when someone tell them that what they're doing is an innovation or so.
Posts: 1732 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Well, I would definitly understand why people would feel sore and angry by his statement, and probably that's why he said it in the first place. But no one understads that it has been questioned long before he said so, not the mere occurance of the Hulocaust, but the number of people involved. The thing that made it an intens taboo is how peope dealt with it. Any opposing or doubtful opinion was agressivly attacked and people prosicuted. There was no space for tolerance for different opinions or sciptic point of views. I've read a book one time by a jewish author who questioned the number of jews involved in the Holocaust and read several books about what happened to him later on. It has been a great taboo over many centuries to even discuss a different opinion. I don't question wether it happened or not. In fact I kinna think it did happen, But I believe that it has been used and manipulated to obtain international sympathy and to emotionaly balck mail the whole world and to gain support for every argument and case related to the Israeli/Arab conflict. If you don't understand that this will cause every person directly or indirectly related to the palastinain occupation by Isreal to feel sick and disgusted everytime he/she hears about the Holocauset then you have a problem understanding human psychology. I think it is just fair that some people would feel tempted to adopt some WESTERN theories that claimed that the number of jews killed were much less than what many peopel believe right now. I don't think that living in a state of depreviation from reality is acceptable, but how can anyone prove he is the one who is right FOR SURE! I don't think anyone can question what the the west did to the jews, how mauch hatriate they had for them. but the question was more about the number of the people involved. I agree with the point mentioned before that the holocaust was a crime of the west that the west forced the palastinias to pay for it and the west is still forcing the palastinians to pay more and more for it. And I feel disgusted when I hear them even deny the palastinians the right to resist that. But again, the world was never about justice and life will never be fair. This is not the place or the time for that, other wise we'd be living in heaven. Nothing stays the same. Every Dog Has His day, and Every Day Has It's Dog.
I hope those who died in the Holocaust rest in piece for they died for no reason, and those who will die for the palastinian liberation for they died paying the price of a crime they didn't commit.
One question that had always bothered my head. If at this time, at the currant days, people leave thier homeland and imigrate to live in israel knowing that they are going to live on the land that belongs to others, and on the expence of other nations lifes would we call them "inocent civilians"? a tricky question that I can never find a solid answer for.
quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: TEHRAN (Reuters) - Iran expressed surprise on Sunday about international condemnation of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's remarks regarding the Holocaust and Israel, and accused the West of not tolerating differences of opinion.
The United Nations Security Council and many world leaders have deplored Ahmadinejad's comments, in which he expressed doubt that the Holocaust happened and suggested Israel be moved to Europe.
______________________________________
Is he just being inflammatory or is there a significant number of Arabs/Persians/Muslims who think the Holocaust never occurred?
quote:Originally posted by dwgendy: ... One question that had always bothered my head. If at this time, at the currant days, people leave thier homeland and imigrate to live in israel knowing that they are going to live on the land that belongs to others, and on the expence of other nations lifes would we call them "inocent civilians"? a tricky question that I can never find a solid answer for.
Well this line of thought is similar to the way Hamas and other similar groups treat the idea of resistance, but the thing of jews knowing that they are taking someone else land is debatable. I have met jews who think they took a land which none lived in or owned. The problem is that this line of thinking usually bring troubles the more you follow it and if you remember during the 80s in Egypt, targetting police men because they worked for the unjust regime and made themselves part of the unjust system was basic element of some groups and now Iraqi police are attacked for similar ideas.
In wars Muslims were alwayes reminded to only attack those who fought them in arms and leave others in peace with their daily life. We are suppose to only judge by appearance and only Allah can read what in the hearts of people. JMO
Posts: 1732 | Registered: Jun 2004
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EXPLAIN A LOT ABOUT HATE AND DISCRIMINATION...WE HATE DIFFERENT..GOT TO BE THE SAME OR YOU WILL BE HATED...
Posts: 2691 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I know there is a great prejudice against *different.* Sad, too, because I love *different.*
And that just makes people ask me if I hate myself.
Can't I like me and someone who is different from me? Is that so hard to believe? Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Believe that it occurred? I thought this was a historical fact. It may be blown off proportion in terms of the number of victims but a fact nevertheless. I would kind of expect the question to be whether one knew of the holocaust and not whether one believed it occurred as it is hardly subject to personal belief.
Posts: 19 | From: Planet Earth | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Narnia: Believe that it occurred? I thought this was a historical fact. It may be blown off proportion in terms of the number of victims but a fact nevertheless. I would kind of expect the question to be whether one knew of the holocaust and not whether one believed it occurred as it is hardly subject to personal belief.
I agree. There's definitely room for debate about the extent of massacre in the Holocaust and if the Iranian president had questioned *that,* I would still find him highly credible.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Well, I did emphasise in my statement on the fact that imigration is still hapening (I also still incriminate it when it happened in the past also), and while the palastinian refugees are denied thier right to go back to their home land, Russian jews, cuban jews and french jews are very much invited to imigrate to Israel. Don't tell me that there are people who don't know whats the deal in Palastine/Israel NOW. You might have an argument about the ones that imigrated back around 1948, but not the one imigrating uptill now. Even those who claim they thought it was an empty land, it more like they just wanted to believe so. I just can't see how no one knew or felt what was happening to the Palastinians back then.
Anyway, this debate is more like pouring alcohol on unhealed woulnds, everyone gets sore and feelings get hurt. No one in the west will accept how Arabs (not only muslims) view this issue, and no one in the middle east will ever understand how the west view it also. In my personal opinion this conflict will always drain the middle east emotionaly and culturaly till the whole world political map come to revolutionary change.
Lets just hope for peace.
quote:Originally posted by Troubles101:
quote:Originally posted by dwgendy: ... One question that had always bothered my head. If at this time, at the currant days, people leave thier homeland and imigrate to live in israel knowing that they are going to live on the land that belongs to others, and on the expence of other nations lifes would we call them "inocent civilians"? a tricky question that I can never find a solid answer for.
Well this line of thought is similar to the way Hamas and other similar groups treat the idea of resistance, but the thing of jews knowing that they are taking someone else land is debatable. I have met jews who think they took a land which none lived in or owned. The problem is that this line of thinking usually bring troubles the more you follow it and if you remember during the 80s in Egypt, targetting police men because they worked for the unjust regime and made themselves part of the unjust system was basic element of some groups and now Iraqi police are attacked for similar ideas.
In wars Muslims were alwayes reminded to only attack those who fought them in arms and leave others in peace with their daily life. We are suppose to only judge by appearance and only Allah can read what in the hearts of people. JMO
posted
Islamic leader in Egypt calls Holocaust 'myth'
Friday, December 23, 2005
By SALAH NASRAWI ASSOCIATED PRESS
CAIRO, Egypt - The leader of Egypt's main Islamic opposition group said Thursday the Holocaust was a "myth," and he slammed Western governments for criticizing disclaimers of the Jewish genocide.
The comments by Muslim Brotherhood chief Mohammed Mahdi Akef - made on the heels of his group's strong showing in Egyptian parliamentary elections - echoed remarks made recently by Iran's hard-line president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, which sparked international outrage.
"Western democracies have slammed all those who don't see eye to eye with the Zionists regarding the myth of the Holocaust," Akef wrote in a weekly article meant as a directive to the group's followers on its official Web site.
In Israel, the director of the Israeli branch of the Nazi watchdog group, the Simon Wiesenthal Center, warned, "There's no question that a very ugly wave of Holocaust denial is sweeping the Arab world."
"The problem is that so far in the Arab world, very few leaders are willing to tell their own people that they have to understand that the Holocaust did take place," Efraim Zuroff said.
Akef's hard-line rhetoric was in contrast to the moderate tone the Brotherhood took in November and December parliamentary elections, during which it played down its calls for implementing Shariah, or Islamic law, in Egypt and instead touted itself as a pro-democracy movement.
The outlawed Brotherhood surprised many with its election showing, winning 88 seats in the legislature - about 20 percent of the body - and establishing itself as the top opposition bloc.
In his article, Akef lashed out at the United States and other Western powers for what he described as a campaign against Islam.
"These words are meant to expose the false American rule which has become a nightmare of a new world order," Akef said.
"I am making these comments to all free people in the world, aiming to wake up the conscience in humanity. The sword of democracy is only unsheathed against those who raise the flag of Islam."
Similar comments by Ahmadinejad this month sparked an international outcry. The Iranian president called the Holocaust - in which 6 million Jews were killed - a "myth" and said Europeans have used it to create a Jewish state in the heart of the Islamic world.
He also said Israel should be "wiped off the map."
Arab governments and media did not condemn Ahmadinejad's remarks.
It was not clear why Akef made the remarks, but his article was full of criticism of Western democracy, which he said "was drawn up by the sons of Zion."
Akef did not take a question about his statement, but a top Brotherhood leader said the group is disenchanted by the U.S. policies in the Mideast, including President Bush's reform plans for the region.
"In fact, the Americans appeared to be hypocrites about the issue of reform," Essam el-Aryan said. "They maintain silence when the [election's] results were not favorable to them."
In an interview with The Associated Press last month, Akef promised that the group will not use its new leverage in the Parliament to try to change Egypt's foreign policy, including its 1979 peace treaty with Israel. He said the group will not push for a fight with Israel.
His remarks seemed to be designed to allay Western concerns about the organization's newfound strength.
Following the elections, Akef promised that Brotherhood parliamentarians would represent all Egyptians - Muslims, Coptic Christians, men and women - in an attempt to calm widespread fear of the group among Christians, women and secularists.
But in his Thursday article, Akef said the group will press to implement "the correct teachings of Islam."
"You Brothers, you are the guardians of Shariah. Your main concern should be the heritage of Shariah, which you uphold," he wrote.
The Brotherhood calls for implementing Islamic law but is vague about what that means. Many skeptics accuse it of using a moderate tone in public while backing hard-line stances in private that it will implement if it assumes power.
Egypt's opposition leader berates U.S. He echoes comments of Iran president that Holocaust is a myth Michael Slackman, New York Times
Friday, December 23, 2005
Cairo -- Two weeks after the Muslim Brotherhood won 88 seats in parliament and established itself as Egypt's only significant political opposition organization, its leader issued a statement condemning the United States while declaring that the Holocaust was a "myth."
In a statement issued on the group's Web site, Mohammed Mahdi Akef, the supreme guide of the Brotherhood, said that the United States might be the public face of the new world order but that, from "backstage," it was being "manipulated by the hands of the sons of Zion."
He also echoed comments made earlier by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who had called the Holocaust a myth and said that whatever occurred was the fault of the Europeans and that therefore Israel should be moved to Europe.
In his weekly letter on the Web site, Akef said, "Western democracy has attacked everyone who does not share the vision of the sons of Zion as far as the myth of the Holocaust is concerned."
The statement came just days after the Muslim Brotherhood watched a record number of its members take seats in the 454-member parliament. The parliament, although a weak organization, does give its members a bully pulpit. That gives the Brotherhood a chance to challenge presidential decisions and promote its ideas.
The Brotherhood is a banned organization, but more than 100 members were allowed to run for parliament as independents. While Brotherhood members have long promoted extreme ideas -- such as Israel's being behind the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001 -- the notion that the Holocaust was exaggerated and manipulated to justify creation of Israel is not out of the mainstream here.
In an article published three days ago in the Egyptian daily newspaper Al-Masaa, columnist Hisham Abd al-Rauf wrote that Nazi execution chambers were "no more than rooms to disinfect clothing."
"The most serious lie is the Jews' Holocaust, which they have exploited in order to extort global solidarity," he wrote, citing the widespread condemnation of Ahmadinejad's statements.
posted
Just for the record, see the below article and also note that a better translation of the word used seems to be "legend" (i.e. a story with a basis in fact that as been exaggerated in importance or details), as this fits in with the rest of what was said better than "myth" (a story not based in fact):
Egypt's Brotherhood leader says Holocaust did happen
Sat Dec 24, 8:22 AM ET
The leader of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood on Saturday said that when he called the Holocaust a myth this week, he did not mean to say it never happened.
The office of Mohamed Mahdi Akef, the "general guide" of the large Islamist opposition group, said in a statement that his remark on Thursday was meant merely to make a point about the West's attitude toward democracy and the Palestinians.
In a message on Thursday, Akef said: "Western democracy has attacked everyone who does not share the vision of the sons of Zion as far as the myth of the Holocaust is concerned.
He cited as evidence of Western intolerance the cases of French writer Roger Garaudy, who was convicted of questioning the Holocaust in France in 1998, and British historian David Irving, who faces similar charges in Austria next month.
But on Saturday, his office said: "Some media gave this a meaning which he (Akef) did not intend (and read it as) a denial that the Holocaust of the Jews by the Nazis during World War Two happened. The fact is that he did not deny that it took place."
"He (Akef) brought up the case of Garaudy ... to contrast it with the West's disregard for the victims of the Zionist state and its daily crimes against the Palestinians," it said.
"He cited that as evidence of the West's policy of a double standard and of the democracy of exclusion which it practices on a wide scale," the statement added.
Some 6 million Jews were killed by the Nazis and their allies between 1933 and 1945.
Akef's group won 88 of the Egyptian parliament's 454 seats in elections in November and December, making the Brotherhood the largest opposition group in the chamber.
quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: or is there a significant number of Arabs/Persians/Muslims who think the Holocaust never occurred?
After reading latest news - YES.
actually the problem is not that many of the muslims/arabs don't believe the holocaust is real, it's the fact that they do not base their convictions on any sort of solid study.. most people never really read anything about the holocaust and those who made the effort only read one side of the story (that which claims it wasn't real), all in all they just refuse to believe in it merely out of hatred for israel not because they really know anything about it.. this unfortunately undermines their entire argument.
Posts: 956 | From: nowhere | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by misfit: they just refuse to believe in it merely out of hatred for israel not because they really know anything about it.. this unfortunately undermines their entire argument.
posted
what about people getting killed everday nowadays why dont they care about them the same way they care about those people who were killed long time ago at least we are watching what's going on these days and no one is complaining about it !! all they have to complain about is 6 millions died and tortured many decades ago ! well care for the people dying these days and people will care for those who died earlier but its nothing but double standered game where arab are always losing and israelis are the only winners i dont hate israelis and i dont doubt the holocaust but we need america and europe to stop israeli leaders from killing arabs and even peace activests not to turn their backs for what's going on in palestine and bosnia , Peace
-------------------- HandsUpHandsDown is that american woman who used to be known as "ana huna" in ES! Strange but true. Posts: 1123 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I believe that the holocaust took place and know people who were imprisoned, their families killed. I don't think it takes an enormous mind to accept one story of persecution and then accept another story of persecution. We have many stories like this in the world. And we have many people who have to live with the damage and despair that others have caused them for the rest of their lives. I don't think there is a need to compete for the worst story. I hope we can have compassion for all those who are suffering and have suffered, regardless of religion or political alliance. I do agree with previous posts that the Iranian president's unusual remarks undermine his accountability. I think they illustrate a dangerously inflammatory mindset that does not show any kind of genius in terms of crafting policy to improve things. In other words, its negative, obviously, and without any real value for the future of Palestine. His remarks remind me too much of "coffee shop talk," like something one hears on the street and not from a true leader. I hope this isn't a trend in national leadership, God knows we have seen enough incompetence.
Posts: 1161 | From: wo xiang xiao bian ji si le | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by egyptian-guy: but its nothing but double standered game where arab are always losing and israelis are the only winners
You think the Israelis are winners? I cannot imagine living in a country where terrorism is a fact of daily life. If living in a war zone is a winning situation, give me something else. If living in a nation that turns its back on fundamental civil rights for *all* citizens is a *winner,* give me something else.
Having a piece of ground under your feet to call your own, to me, means nothing when that ground is red with the blood of 1000s of humans, Israeli and Palestinian blood. I'd rather be homeless and have peace.
There are no winners in this conflict. None. Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by egyptian-guy: but its nothing but double standered game where arab are always losing and israelis are the only winners
You think the Israelis are winners? I cannot imagine living in a country where terrorism is a fact of daily life. If living in a war zone is a winning situation, give me something else. If living in a nation that turns its back on fundamental civil rights for *all* citizens is a *winner,* give me something else.
Having a piece of ground under your feet to call your own, to me, means nothing when that ground is red with the blood of 1000s of humans, Israeli and Palestinian blood. I'd rather be homeless and have peace.
There are no winners in this conflict. None.
We ought to define terrorism ..... Really this is kind of confusing to me...Do the Palistinians have the right to resist and how can they resist occupation effectively without being terrorists...if you were born as a palistinian what would you have done going through life the way they are going through with it?.....THERE IS NO WINNER WITHOUT JUST PEACE..
Posts: 2691 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
And there are many Israelis who do not believe in the way they have to live either ( the army, segregation from palestinians ,racism anongst "arab"ews and "european" jews in israel, killing young, friends dying young.There are lots of them running away, dropping out and just not buying the whole Israeli Only Nation thing. I honestly cant imagine living with that level of stress EVERY DAY.
Posts: 872 | From: Sydney | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Tiger1225: We ought to define terrorism ..... Really this is kind of confusing to me...Do the Palistinians have the right to resist and how can they resist occupation effectively without being terrorists...if you were born as a palistinian what would you have done going through life the way they are going through with it?.....THERE IS NO WINNER WITHOUT JUST PEACE..
Well, I think terrorism is violence/crime against civilians by individuals. What Israel does, in my opinion, are akin to war crimes. There's no real war, but they are not behaving in an ethical manner. What they do goes beyond the norm to *defend* their country. Strapping 16 year old Palestinian boy to front of tank to discourage gun fire.
I hate the violence from *both* sides.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
I beleive approx 6 million jews were killed in the holocost...I also beleive millions were killed by stalin and mao, thru starvation and gulags..
infact, man has for the most part been worthless since day one...this is why Christ came to the world.
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