quote:Originally posted by Ki$$7eaven: waht your saying is that amr khaled is trying to say... but instead od sitting around and waiting for the world to change for the muslim...
he is actually trying to help the muslim to wake, and move on...
by focusing on female hair and accusing it of being the biggest sin? probably you share the same ideas of his but it doesn't seem so wise to me, sorry!
Posts: 956 | From: nowhere | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ki$$7eaven: waht your saying is that amr khaled is trying to say... but instead od sitting around and waiting for the world to change for the muslim...
he is actually trying to help the muslim to wake, and move on...
by focusing on female hair and accusing it of being the biggest sin?
Exactly. I don't see how focussing on a piece of fabric will help Muslims to develop and prosper ...
quote:Originally posted by Ki$$7eaven: "biggest sin" in who's perspective?
It's not a question of perspective but of religious terminology.
I think you can come up yourself with things that are regarded a big sin ... murder, for example, or other crimes. Surely not covering your head does not fall into the same category.
posted
but there's nothing "wrong" in a women covering her hair...
right...?
super-models, the american culture managed to "focus" on getting women naked, skinny, makeing women feel bad about themselves if they are not, and so on...
so what can be wrong in "focusing" women to cover up
it's a mean world out there, and there are all types of forces flying around....
Posts: 2457 | From: U | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
It is a sin. Anytime you force a woman into a position of submission you have committed a sin. Those who advocate these things do not speak for God, but rather the other side.
The French were correct is banning this garb from their public schools. We will not have a society where the status of a woman is determined by her adherance to some subjective religious view.
-------------------- God Bless President Bush Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: It is a sin. Anytime you force a woman into a position of submission you have committed a sin. Those who advocate these things do not speak for God, but rather the other side.
The French were correct is banning this garb from their public schools. We will not have a society where the status of a woman is determined by her adherance to some subjective religious view.
Hijab is a sign of submission to God, not to man.
I think a woman should be free to *choose* to wear hijab, like she is in the US, and not restricted like in France.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
She can do it Susan, but not in a public schools. The church can teach that a woman has 'a place' if it wishes but society as a whole must teach equality. That is really what the french are getting at. The problem that conservative Muslims have when they come to the west is that no matter what they teach in terms of restricting the roles of women the society they are in makes the position fundamentally illegal.
If Hijab is submission to God, as you point out, then why do men not wear it as well?
-------------------- God Bless President Bush Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
I don't think France allows Christians to wear crucifixes around their necks in school either. I don't think religion should be a part of school, but I don't think a person should be forbidden from doing something such as wearing yarmulkes, hijab, or crucifixes in school. It doesn't hurt anyone.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: It is a sin. Anytime you force a woman into a position of submission you have committed a sin. Those who advocate these things do not speak for God, but rather the other side.
The French were correct is banning this garb from their public schools. We will not have a society where the status of a woman is determined by her adherance to some subjective religious view.
Hello... wakey wakey....
you say....Anytime you force a woman then you say... French were correct is banning this garb from
please wake up.... and stop living in a world of your own...
Posts: 2457 | From: U | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
If the policy of that religion CONFLICTS with that of the state then it should not be allowed. The views of Conservative Islam do , in fact, conflict with the laws of most western governments in terms of the status of women.
Islam is going to have to change if it is to survive in the west. There are cultural componets of Islam that are not compatable with western society. I am not going to teach a class where one or more women expose only their eyes. When guys come into my class they take off their hats and women take off their scarves. Islam has a place but not in my classroom where our efforts are focused on the battle of Gettysburg of bleeding Kansas.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ki$$7eaven: a sin, in who's perpective/religious terminolgy.... shudnt you be respecting one's "religious terminolgy"....
I do!
Can you tell me what you consider as the worst sins, Islamically speaking? What's the worst sin you can come up with? Murder? Rape? Shirk? Adultery? I guess your answer would probably be somewhere along those lines.
Major sins are always deeds that severely harm another human being or yourself or society. Major sins are often acts of cruelty and barbarism.
There are also the more common sins many of us are guilty of to a certain extent – lying, backbiting, judging, pretending, neglecting, being selfish and so on. If we want to become better human beings we should work on those things first.
Do you understand now why I think that Mr. Khaled's statement is a bit out of line?
Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Ngeg: listening to him doesn't remind me that I'm not veiled-and probably won't be veiled this lifetime.
care to explain how this could be when his holy mission is to remind you that you're a sinner, sinner, sinner.. because you're not veiled, and probably won't be in this lifetime?
a freak like him would have probably been no more than a cheap comparse who does the clown in stupid comedies.. he's a star same way as sha3ban abdelre7eem and Mohammad negm became stars each at his own time.
enjoy, while your whole lives are being robbed away from you!
Well, I do know Hijab is a fard and I'm commiting a "sin" by not doing it. Saying it 3, no , a 100, a million times doesn't change it. He states a fact!!!! I know it, he said it. So what??? Does it make him a bad person for saying it out loud?
Well, if u think a charismatic, well educated-in a field or two-, well spoken and well behaved person like him a "star" like x or y..then, it's a pity. For I see no point in the comparison with the two men u mentioned who show off their ignorance and pride for lagging behind the whole world.
My world isn't being robbed from me!! God forbid! If u think urs is, then u should reconsider what u r willing to give up, to give in to and to give away!
Posts: 1813 | From: Cairo | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
the righteous companions were always cautious of the smaller sins.... and never took them lightly, infact more seriously than the bigger ones.......
quote:Originally posted by Dalia:
quote:Originally posted by Ki$$7eaven: a sin, in who's perpective/religious terminolgy.... shudnt you be respecting one's "religious terminolgy"....
I do!
Can you tell me what you consider as the worst sins, Islamically speaking? What's the worst sin you can come up with? Murder? Rape? Shirk? Adultery? I guess your answer would probably be somewhere along those lines.
Major sins are always deeds that severely harm another human being or yourself or society. Major sins are often acts of cruelty and barbarism.
There are also the more common sins many of us are guilty of to a certain extent – lying, backbiting, judging, pretending, neglecting, being selfish and so on. If we want to become better human beings we should work on those things first.
Do you understand now why I think that Mr. Khaled's statement is a bit out of line?
quote:Originally posted by Ki$$7eaven: the righteous companions were always cautious of the smaller sins.... and never took them lightly, infact more seriously than the bigger ones.......
quote:Originally posted by Ngeg: Well, I do know Hijab is a fard and I'm commiting a "sin" by not doing it. Saying it 3, no , a 100, a million times doesn't change it. He states a fact!!!! I know it, he said it. So what??? Does it make him a bad person for saying it out loud?
Well, if u think a charismatic, well educated-in a field or two-, well spoken and well behaved person like him a "star" like x or y..then, it's a pity. For I see no point in the comparison with the two men u mentioned who show off their ignorance and pride for lagging behind the whole world.
My world isn't being robbed from me!! God forbid! If u think urs is, then u should reconsider what u r willing to give up, to give in to and to give away!
dear noha, let me remind you of what you said, these are your words not mine:
quote:Originally posted by Ngeg: listening to him doesn't remind me that I'm not veiled-and probably won't be veiled this lifetime.
so previously you said his words do not remind you of your alleged sin, and now you say you welcome his continuous(100X) reminders of your sin because he's simply stating a fact.. don't you see a bit of a contradiction here?
and how do you know for sure that he's stating a fact? did you try to find out for yourself the truth about higab from different sources to make certain that this is what islam really dictates, or are you just comfortable by the idea that somebody charismatic did the decision on your behalf, even if in reality it is only dictated by his own sick paternal mind?
i really think that if you are caught in that nasty crossfire of fealing like a sinner because you show you hair yet you're not willing to put on a stupid looking veil, that you should dedicate some real personal effort to discover the truth about the big deal higab that is being used by sick minded ignorant clerics to summerize human virtue, before you fall for the higab trap and (i repeat) all your life gets stolen away from you and get replaced by the life of a saudi or a post revolution iranian! (now this really god forbid)!
PS. I hope "elkhilaf la yofsid lil wedd qadeyya" Posts: 956 | From: nowhere | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
No no no...U chose what u want from my text!!!!! I said This is not what it reminds me of, it reminds me of x y z! Bcz i choose from his words what suit me.
But it was a smart trial ya 7elw...
Yes, I have gathered enough material from hadith and quraan abt hijab. I even went to feminist lectures abt it..anti hijab of course. My conclusions are my personal choice.
Let me remind u. Amr khaled or anyone else doesn't dictate! He just opens a window for u..u want to look, fine. You don't , fair enough!
At this point I leave it here. I think this conversation won't get us anywhere. Webardo sha2et el basateen beta3tiiiii, dih melk..wehakhod ahli men bokra wenrou7 no3od henak..
-------------------- Same crap...Different toilet Posts: 1813 | From: Cairo | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Ngeg: No no no...U chose what u want from my text!!!!! I said This is not what it reminds me of, it reminds me of x y z! Bcz i choose from his words what suit me.
it's not like i've made it up.. i chose from your text what was contradictive IMO!
quote: Let me remind u. Amr khaled or anyone else doesn't dictate! He just opens a window for u..u want to look, fine. You don't , fair enough!
not really, giving women a needless guilt trip and focusing all the guilt and sins of mankind on their head scarf is not fair (IMO)!
quote: Webardo sha2et el basateen beta3tiiiii, dih melk..wehakhod ahli men bokra wenrou7 no3od henak..
the wonder of you noha is your lovely spirit which allows you to be always so witty and charming even when dealing with a bugging misfit like me! thanks for being so cool and civilized in disagreeing, although unlike you i tend to think we were getting somewhere (IMO).
Posts: 956 | From: nowhere | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
First, my statment wasn't contradicting! Let me rephrase:
His words and "igtehadat" are on Hijab as well as other major topics. Right? If he states a fact that I know too well and ignore intentionally-(which means it's there at the back of my mind). If his words on this topic don't affect me even though he never fails to stress on it. He goes on and on, but after research I still choose to ignore.
If I agree with 90% of his speech-on other topics. Especially topics related to human relationships with each other rather than with their religions.
If I believe he opens a window for Arab youth. Assuring them that there's still hope. Light at the end of the tunnel. If I'm one of the "Arab youth"
Where does that leave me? Grateful for his presence at a dark time in the Arab history, and at this stage of my life-on personal level.
Hmmm...as for being cool, it's a "reaction"! You presented yr case well and I had to respond in a similar manner.
At least admit that excluding his intentions which aren't our debate or concern, he is a human being who deserves respect and appreciation even when partially/ occasionally disagreeing with his cause.
Ana 3ayza talaga saba3tashar adam
Posts: 1813 | From: Cairo | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: Hijab is a sign of submission to God, not to man.
But if it was a submission to GOd why aren't men required to cover their head in the same format?
Why aren't men required to cover their hair, ears, and neck?
If women are truly equal in the eyes of God besides men, why aren't the requirements of what to cover the same.
Even in ancient Hebrew times men weren't required to cover themselves like women. And somehow the Hebrews considered not only submission to God, but also submission to men.
Thats what freaks me out.
It just leaves me wondering if God considers women thee source of evil, while men not women don't have to behave or think in a civilized manner because they are naturally less civilized than women. Meaning less capable of self-control than women.
I often wonder why in polytheist societies why its so patriachal/misgonist. Why women have to submit to men so often (save artic indigenous peoples, like the Sami)and how come monotheists decided to mimic this sentiment.
I think its just so insane that monotheism is supposed to treat the genders as equal but ends up just mimic the patriachal nature of polytheism.
Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by sonomod: [QB] If women are truly equal in the eyes of God besides men, why aren't the requirements of what to cover the same.
you might of well be asking..., y dont men get pregnant
quote:
Even in ancient Hebrew times men weren't required to cover themselves like women. And somehow the Hebrews considered [b]not only submission to God, but also submission to men.
we are the people of Muhammad pbuh... so we follow what has been given to him.. each tribe, nation in its time had its own rules, accordingly...
Posts: 2457 | From: U | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by sonomod: [QB] If women are truly equal in the eyes of God besides men, why aren't the requirements of what to cover the same.
you might of well be asking..., y dont men get pregnant
quote:
Even in ancient Hebrew times men weren't required to cover themselves like women. And somehow the Hebrews considered [b]not only submission to God, but also submission to men.
we are the people of Muhammad pbuh... so we follow what has been given to him.. each tribe, nation in its time had its own rules, accordingly...
What does pregnancy have to do with submission to God?
I mean this is exactly the kinda of reasoning that keeps me from taking my Shaddah.
Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by sonomod: But if it was a submission to GOd why aren't men required to cover their head in the same format?
Why aren't men required to cover their hair, ears, and neck?
If women are truly equal in the eyes of God besides men, why aren't the requirements of what to cover the same.
Even in ancient Hebrew times men weren't required to cover themselves like women. And somehow the Hebrews considered not only submission to God, but also submission to men.
Thats what freaks me out.
It just leaves me wondering if God considers women thee source of evil, while men not women don't have to behave or think in a civilized manner because they are naturally less civilized than women. Meaning less capable of self-control than women.
I often wonder why in polytheist societies why its so patriachal/misgonist. Why women have to submit to men so often (save artic indigenous peoples, like the Sami)and how come monotheists decided to mimic this sentiment.
I think its just so insane that monotheism is supposed to treat the genders as equal but ends up just mimic the patriachal nature of polytheism.
My own speculation is that religion comes to us in a form that we are at least somewhat familiar with....so that it is easier for us to comply.
Things told to us by God through prophets are in accordance with our abilities at the time to understand them. Which is why I think we see a lot of cultural practices incorporated into different religions.
But you bring up a really interesting point. Why, throughout history, are women quite often treated poorly by men? Treated as property throughout much of recorded history? Is it merely because we are generally physically weaker than men? What divine or sociological reason is there for that?
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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it is nice to know that you are thinking about it... but i hope it not too late..ie death...for your own sake...
on the other hand, it is well that you are trying to understand it proper, b4 making any commitment..
i still didnt get the prevantation thing... i was trying to point out, like in this thread that man and women are equal in their own certian ways...
though, both are humans, they are of different gender, they have the same equality, but of differnt type...
if you get what i mean.. or no...
quote:Originally posted by sonomod:
quote:Originally posted by Ki$$7eaven:
quote:Originally posted by sonomod: [QB] If women are truly equal in the eyes of God besides men, why aren't the requirements of what to cover the same.
you might of well be asking..., y dont men get pregnant
quote:
Even in ancient Hebrew times men weren't required to cover themselves like women. And somehow the Hebrews considered [b]not only submission to God, but also submission to men.
we are the people of Muhammad pbuh... so we follow what has been given to him.. each tribe, nation in its time had its own rules, accordingly...
What does pregnancy have to do with submission to God?
I mean this is exactly the kinda of reasoning that keeps me from taking my Shaddah.
quote:Originally posted by Ki$$7eaven: what do you mean "prevent" you...
it is nice to know that you are thinking about it... but i hope it not too late..ie death...for your own sake...
So are you saying people like Mother Teresa have been damned to the hellfire because she was not a Muslim?
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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Anyway, I cannot predict the future.. so frankly, only God Knows....
God makes His Words clear...but people's fate is nothing of our knowledge
I cannot say she will or will not, despite who anyone is... that will be commiting a sin..
There was a narration where a man use to see this man who use to sin all the time the former said to the latter "By god you will go to hell" but what actually happened he went to hell...
im only outlining the hadith, so you can go and search for it.... im sure pple must of came across it, and it sounds alot more butiful
-------------------- -- here... [url=http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0955020700/qid%3D1133898517/026-7853042-0414807= Recommended...![/url] Posts: 2457 | From: U | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
I'd like you to explain...I'm just trying to understand.
Is there something in Islam about non-Muslims (particularly people of the book or people who have never heard of Islam) going to hell because they are not Muslim? I understand being Muslim and turning your back (kufr), but what about others?
Otherwise, why do you imply there is a sense of urgency that Sonomod should convert *before death,* so it's not *too late* for her?
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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it about the islamic history... it was this show in the morning that made me post the morning post... this is only the evening repeat.. the even got a non-muslim, human right lawyer typical british on the show to balance things out Posts: 2457 | From: U | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Kiss and snoozin.. Plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz let this discussion go. It will only bring up dispute. For that's a part that's very tricky to explain in Islam. My last visit to Cairo, it took me a couple of hours with a certified Daa'eya to understand this topic.
Snoozin: I'd very much recommend locating books in English that tackle this topic.
All the best, Ng
-------------------- Same crap...Different toilet Posts: 1813 | From: Cairo | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
What is dangerous about charismatic "religious" figures is somewhat underlined by some of the posts here. Regardless of the religious authenticity of their statements, people get swept up by the excitement, by the underlining message of unity in faith, of allegiance to a common belief... mob psychology takes hold? possibly. But people lose sight of the details, passing over the comments they don't dig and warming themselves in the collective glow of a strong message. Meanwhile, the more a thing is repeated, the more people start to believe it is true. The less they question it. Where exactly in the holy Quran or the Sunnah did Mr. Mohammed indicate that taking off a "veil" is the greatest sin? If it is not represented within these sources, who is anyone to speak for Allah in proclaiming the level of a sin? I'm writing this without any slant one way or the other regarding the hijab. But like boot cut jeans or elizabethan collars, i think the current version of the hijab is a fashion. Whatever. I think having your ears covered by fabric all the time outside your house is disabling and potentially dangerous. me needs me ears. I'm only in a position to comfortably comment on this because I live in a free society that separates church from state, except in the case of christianity, hahaha. My gut reaction to Amr Khaled is much akin to the reaction I might have to listening to Joel Osteen (sp?) or any other televangelist. Inspiring at times, maybe, but subject to scrutiny, always.
Posts: 1161 | From: wo xiang xiao bian ji si le | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ngeg: Kiss and snoozin.. Plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz let this discussion go. It will only bring up dispute. For that's a part that's very tricky to explain in Islam. My last visit to Cairo, it took me a couple of hours with a certified Daa'eya to understand this topic.
Snoozin: I'd very much recommend locating books in English that tackle this topic.
All the best, Ng
Let them battle it to the ground ..I will hand them the knife myself ...nothing like a good conversation ...
quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: But you bring up a really interesting point. Why, throughout history, are women quite often treated poorly by men? Treated as property throughout much of recorded history? Is it merely because we are generally physically weaker than men? What divine or sociological reason is there for that? [/QB]
Actually the *history* your reffering to, is the "middle ages"..again this is the majority fo your history, and thats as good as it gets.... until modernizatoin swept in to appease the unvcivilazatoin across nmid/norther europe...
yes, there were women degradatoin prior islam... again proof that islam brang liberation to women, that modernized ancient times... in turn modernizing europe..
when was shakespear around... some of his work does reflect the flourshing islamic modernization, btw
=============================================
quote:Originally posted by Tigerman: ]Let them battle it to the ground ..I will hand them the knife myself ...nothing like a good conversation ...
which knife? sayf el haq? (did i say it right)
Posts: 2457 | From: U | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ki$$7eaven: Actually the *history* your reffering to, is the "middle ages"..again this is the majority fo your history, and thats as good as it gets.... until modernizatoin swept in to appease the unvcivilazatoin across nmid/norther europe...
yes, there were women degradatoin prior islam... again proof that islam brang liberation to women, that modernized ancient times... in turn modernizing europe..
What are you talking about? Are you saying discrimination is a thing of the past? Look at the world and you'll see lots of discrimination. And unfortunately it's worst in some "Islamic" countries ...
It's nice to lean back and say "Islam liberated women" – and I happen to think that it originally did – but as long as women are being treated as second class citizens in many Muslim countries this statement stays a lip service.
Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Since its founding in 1993, the "Nadim Center" in Cairo has documented cases of torture in Egypt and offers help to victims and surviving dependants. At the same time NADIM has become a refuge for female victims of domestic violence. Martina Sabra reports
A seemingly harmless quarrel became fatal for nineteen-year-old Ahmed Mahmoud Tammam of Cairo. His angry neighbor wanted revenge and asked a police friend to have the young man arrested. Before the eyes of his sister and his parents, the upright young man was brutally dragged from their apartment and hauled to a nearby police station.
Two days later Ahmed Tammam was dead. The police report states: "Suicide during the transport." But the autopsy showed heavy brain hemorrhaging and burn injuries in the genital area resulting from electroshocks. Ahmed Mahmoud Tammam was tortured to death. The officers responsible for his death threatened the family to deter them from reporting the case. But the father refused to let up. Despite their tremendous efforts to intimidate him, he filed charges and finally turned to the Nadim Center for Victims of Torture.
"This was one of the cases that really upset me," relates Magda Adly, an anesthesiologist at a state-run hospital who also works as a volunteer at "Nadim" to help people who have suffered from torture and sexist violence. "We helped the family take the case to court. At least there was a verdict of guilt and a sentence." But the police officer responsible got away with one year in prison. "In reality, it was only nine months, and then he was promoted to head of the department," added Suzanne Fayad, director of the clinic at Nadim Center.
Many see torture as a trifle
Around 150 victims of torture and their family members received support last year from the Nadim Center. The small organization located in the bustling center of Cairo runs a counseling center as well as its own psychological and medical clinic. The center recorded forty deaths as a result of torture from June 2004 to June 2005. The workers at "Nadim" cannot say whether torture in Egypt is on the rise. "What we know is that nowadays victims and their family members are more willing to report police cruelty," explained Magda Adly.
"The taboo has in part been broken, and this is not least of all a result of our work. But there are still too many people in Egypt who regard torture as a trifle, and who assume that the victims must have done something. Otherwise they would not have been so mistreated." Reading the reports of Egyptian and international human rights organizations makes it very clear: Torture is a daily occurrence in Egypt's police stations. For Magda Adly, it is part of the dictatorial ruling system which relies on citizens' fear of state authority.
"We are not dealing with isolated cases here, or with the excesses of a particularly aggressive officer," explains the fifty-year-old woman. "From Assuan in the south to Alexandria in the north – everywhere the same methods and the same arbitrariness prevail."
More women are becoming victims
Women under the victims are still in the minority, but their numbers are increasing, and they are quite frequently threatened with sexualized violence. "Torture always has a sexual component; men are also affected by it," explains Aida Saif Al Dawla, professor of psychology and co-founder of NADIM. "But women are often specifically humiliated because of their sex."
The Nadim center works not only directly with victims of torture but also with the family members of political prisoners. "In Egypt thousands have been imprisoned on the suspicion of being involved with Islamist terrorism," says Aida Saif Al Dawla. "Some of them were arrested in the early 1990s as young men and still have not been charged of anything."
In addition to the rehabilitating victims of torture, NADIM has acquired another field of work in the past few years: providing help for beaten and sexually abused women and girls. "Although we focus primarily on victims of torture, from the beginning many female victims of sexist violence came to us," explains Aida Saif Al-Dawla.
A field study conducted by NADIM shows that nearly every second married women in Egypt has experienced domestic violence at least once. Meanwhile NADIM is in the process of training female counselors and is helping regional women's initiatives in different provinces and cities of Egypt to set up their own counseling centers.
In addition, the Nadim Center has launched a national campaign to criminalize domestic violence in Egypt. "In Egypt physical assault or insult is an offence," explains Magda Adly. "But when a man beats his wife, religious laws come into effect. And according to Islamic laws in Egypt a man may "discipline" his wife, if necessary, with physical blows.
Networking as resistance
NADIM and an alliance of women's and human rights organizations are now demanding legislation that would criminalize violence and provide more protection for endangered wives and their children.
The Nadim team is a thorn in the side of the Egyptian authorities because of its engagement for political prisoners, its call for democratic reforms, and its lobby work against patriarchal laws. In the summer of 2004 alleged employees of the health authorities confiscated patient files during a surprise "inspection" and threatened to close the center because it was reportedly pursuing not only "medical" goals.
NADIM is striving to encounter such reprisals with intensive regional and international networking. In Egypt itself NADIM works closely together with the Hisham Mubarak Center for Human Rights and is in the process of establishing an anti-torture committee.
The organization is also a part of the Arab-North African anti-torture network "AMAN," has an observer status at the United Nations, and cooperates closely with international human rights organizations.
A new wave of media-savvy preachers seems to be pulling the rug from under the feet of their older, officially-established counterparts. Nashwa Abdel-Tawab considers the possible long-term impact
Fifteen years ago, it was relatively uncommon to see the kinds of young crowds at mosques that are there today. The credit - or blame for this spreading wave of religiosity amongst the nation's young goes to a new generation of preachers, whose message is far more accessible than their predecessors seemed to be.
"During Ramadan," said one 29-year- old woman, "I spend more of my time praying and reciting the Quran. The only things I watch on television are religious programmes, particularly those presented by preachers like Amr Khaled, Khaled El-Guindi and Nawwarrah Hashem."
While her views are representative of a generation becoming more religious by the day, the new trend is a far cry from the fundamentalist, or even militant, image that prior mass shifts towards piety have seen. The preachers she's talking about offer a tolerant and comfortable discourse.
Pop star-like figures
No longer is the turbaned Azharite the trademark Muslim image; Islam is now available in a far more accessible format, open to everyone. With a handful of exceptions like Grand Mufti Ali Gomaa and Sheikh Youssef El-Qaradawi, the 'alim (religious scholar) has been replaced by the da'ia (preacher) across the public sphere.
Perhaps Hazem Ahmed, a 40-year-old accountant, sums up the underlying cause of this shift in perspective when he confides, "I want to listen to someone who is like me, who speaks my language and understands my problems - not someone who dresses differently, arguably compromises with the regime and offers only the most noncommittal answers."
Socially-rooted, the phenomenon has brought to the fore a professional, almost executive image whose exemplars - Amr Khaled, Safwat Hegazi, Khaled El-Guindi, Mahmoud El-Masri - are pop star-like figures with secular educations, privileged backgrounds and charismas to match.
Making their debuts at gatherings in private homes in the 1990s, they have gained phenomenal followings through a readily digestible mixture of colloquial and classical Arabic with which they perform intimate retellings of stories from Quran and Hadith (Prophet Mohamed's teachings), as well as impassioned, collective appeals for divine redemption.
They often attempt to integrate traditional teachings into a range of existing intellectual moulds - the discourse of self-help, for example - declaring themselves independent of both official and political Islam. They will balk at domestic politics, however, turning down a request for a fatwa (religious edict) as often as stating, again, that improving the moral character of society is a prerequisite for reform.
Their appeal - and danger - is that they tackle the day-to-day head on, with topics like dating and summer vacations forming some of Khaled's most popular sermons (though the Prophet's biography remains by far these new- wave preachers' most popular topic).
Return to conservatism through an illusion of modernism
They have acquired such weight across the Arab world that they now figure in sociological research.
Asef Bayat, for one scholar, argues that the emergence of lay preachers using a Western-style idiom to promote personal piety and salvation signals a shift away from the political within Islamism - a development variously interpreted as a wooing away from secular and extremist dangers (according to Islamist columnist Fahmi Howeidi), and a lamentable return to conservatism through an illusion of modernism (in the eyes of Al-Ahram Political and Strategic Studies Centre's Hala Mustafa).
For its part Al-Azhar, perhaps typically, has had nothing to say about the new preachers, though individual members of the establishment have condemned them as unsafe impostors.
Hussein Mahmoud Khedr, deputy of the Ministry of Religious Endowments, told Al-Arabi newspaper that the preachers' tapes are superficial; Abdullah Barakat, dean of Al-Azhar's faculty of Islamic advocacy, was even more expansive: "A preacher is a pivot of life, guiding people away from vice, towards virtue.
It is a hefty vocation - preaching must be clear, deep and whole. Not anybody who appears on TV can be called a preacher. Most are counsellors, few are preachers, and fewer still scholars."
Barakat took issue, in particular, with the notion that new-wave preachers constitute a revival of religious discourse. "A preacher must be able to speak the language of the age," Hegazi countered, stressing the importance of relevant topics, and the fact that a preacher must have a job, lest preaching should devolve into a moneymaking activity. Hegazi himself is a successful engineer.
"Diet da'wa" and "Air- conditioned Islam"
Informed Muslims like Lamia Adel, a 30-year-old teacher, call for a combination of old and new: "The new preachers help fill the gaps my secular education has left me with, but 10 years on you feel the need to listen to scholars expound on the more complex issues. Perhaps the new preachers bait us, get us hooked; but I think it's the traditional scholars who will guide and nourish us."
New-wave preaching has been derogatorily dubbed "diet da'wa" (advocacy of the faith), and "air- conditioned Islam". But according to Mohamed Ibrahim El-Geushi, a former Al-Azhar dean, advocacy in the original sense remains, technically speaking, the responsibility of every Muslim: "The concept of da'wa has various theological, political and historical implications, but its primary use in the Quran refers to God's will that Muslims should spread His message."
Like it or not, the new da'wa is an obvious aspect of religious reality - perhaps the most obvious. As long as the preachers in question refrain from issuing fatwas or promoting extremism - for which read opposition to the regime - they are not to be feared. As an antidote to fundamentalism and so-called governmental Islam, it remains to be seen, however, whether they will endure as Islam's clearest and most popular voice.
quote:Originally posted by Ki$$7eaven: Actually the *history* your reffering to, is the "middle ages"..again this is the majority fo your history, and thats as good as it gets.... until modernizatoin swept in to appease the unvcivilazatoin across nmid/norther europe...
Women have been discriminated against throughout all of history, other than in some matriarchal societies. Including today.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ngeg: First, my statment wasn't contradicting! Let me rephrase: .......
i won't argue with you regarding contradictions and other stuff, i'll only say that one day you'll remember what i said about having your life as you know it stolen away from you and replaced by an even more oppressed life of a talibani woman because unfortunately, as modern and enlightened as i'm sure you are you still helped pave the road to the likes of A. Khaled to slowly but surely change the shape of our life. and when this happens, when "the fass falls in the rass" and you are forced to wear the higab or maybe even the burqaa, and you're left with nothing to watch on TV except Iqraa and this sort of thing, and there are no more cinemas or theatres and you can only go to the circus to have fun, then you'll say: allah yer7amak ya misfit, kan 3andak 7a2.. di 3eesha ti2assar el3omr! (since i will already be dead having been one of the earliest to be excuted during the 1st few hours of the islamic coupe and the return of the much anticipated khaliphate, merci awi).
quote: At least admit that he is a human being ...
quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: So are you saying people like Mother Teresa have been damned to the hellfire because she was not a Muslim?
but of course!
you see snoozin i was talking to a colleague who had just found the light and discovered the true path after having been living in the darkness for more than 40 years.. she said she was naiive and stupid in the past and thought those non-muslims who made good deeds for mankind, like Louis Pasteur for example, will be rewarded in the afterlife, but now that she read and researched, and became more informed in the matters of the true faith she came to know that this is not the case as apparently such people will only be rewarded during their lifetime but will have to suffer eternal burning in the flames of hell because they died as infidels! i found this concept very disturbingly interesting!
she used to be a real clown in the past but look at her now, she's preaching to tens of mesmerized subordinates about islam and she's guiding more and more lost souls to the true path everyday, i'm sure she'll get her reward in heaven while mother theresa will be burning without mercy!
Posts: 956 | From: nowhere | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by QueenBee: What is dangerous about charismatic "religious" figures is somewhat underlined by some of the posts here. Regardless of the religious authenticity of their statements, people get swept up by the excitement, by the underlining message of unity in faith, of allegiance to a common belief... mob psychology takes hold? possibly. But people lose sight of the details, passing over the comments they don't dig and warming themselves in the collective glow of a strong message. Meanwhile, the more a thing is repeated, the more people start to believe it is true. The less they question it. Where exactly in the holy Quran or the Sunnah did Mr. Mohammed indicate that taking off a "veil" is the greatest sin? If it is not represented within these sources, who is anyone to speak for Allah in proclaiming the level of a sin? I'm writing this without any slant one way or the other regarding the hijab. But like boot cut jeans or elizabethan collars, i think the current version of the hijab is a fashion. Whatever. I think having your ears covered by fabric all the time outside your house is disabling and potentially dangerous. me needs me ears. I'm only in a position to comfortably comment on this because I live in a free society that separates church from state, except in the case of christianity, hahaha. My gut reaction to Amr Khaled is much akin to the reaction I might have to listening to Joel Osteen (sp?) or any other televangelist. Inspiring at times, maybe, but subject to scrutiny, always.
well said queenbee!
Posts: 956 | From: nowhere | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: Thanks for starting my weekend off on a bright note, Misfit!!!!
oh, don't mention it snooz...
the problem is that this is not an unfortunate isolated example.. i meet such specimen everyday and if anybody here object and try to convince you and others with a tolerant society then they are only fooling themselves.
Posts: 956 | From: nowhere | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: So are you saying people like Mother Teresa have been damned to the hellfire because she was not a Muslim?
but of course!
you see snoozin i was talking to a colleague who had just found the light and discovered the true path after having been living in the darkness for more than 40 years.. she said she was naiive and stupid in the past and thought those non-muslims who made good deeds for mankind, like Louis Pasteur for example, will be rewarded in the afterlife, but now that she read and researched, and became more informed in the matters of the true faith she came to know that this is not the case as apparently such people will only be rewarded during their lifetime but will have to suffer eternal burning in the flames of hell because they died as infidels! i found this concept very disturbingly interesting!
she used to be a real clown in the past but look at her now, she's preaching to tens of mesmerized subordinates about islam and she's guiding more and more lost souls to the true path everyday, i'm sure she'll get her reward in heaven while mother theresa will be burning without mercy!
What do you believe the true path to be? No speeches please, just your own belief of what one's relationship with God means, assuming you believe in God.
Posts: 637 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Dalia: It's nice to lean back and say "Islam liberated women" –
Had the european from the dark ages not learnt from islam, i dont think you wud be here....
as a women, maybe ull be burned as a witch, perphaps kickes out of your house, cos maybe ur a devil... infact there wud be debate wethe ur human or not...
so please so some appreciation for ur status today
dont get confused with time periods... see the politcal board where i posted a time line, in chronical order.. =====
and dalia,,, u can post as many example of today of muslim.... but it doesnt change i thing about history...
better to accept the fact, rather be in denial like Fran, etc
Posts: 2457 | From: U | Registered: Jun 2005
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