posted
Guys, what do you think of it? I'm in chapter 7 "lost identity" and I find the book simply fanatstic. It hurts to admit that-being an Egyptian-I learned a lot on matters I seemed to be clueless about.
The book is still banned, removed from Virgin megastores after a few days. But somehow it's being sold at the AUC bookshop.
Posts: 1813 | From: Cairo | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Hm, I read from ES that it was banned at first but then they allowed to sell it. Did they bannedd it again or what? This was quite some time ago I read this.
Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
Well the book is divided into 8 chapters as follows:
A failed revolution The brothers Sufis and Christians The bedouin Torture Corruption Lost Dignity Egypt after Mubarak
Obviously all topics are Egyptian taboos. Being a foreigner the writer was exposed to situations and info that is usually kept from us-citizens. For instance, a copt would talk openly to him about discrimintation more than to me. A human rights NGO would reveal data and info in hope for "aid" Moreover his views on the revolution and such are so practical, vs the emotional version that citizens are exposed to through their parents and the media. Sufis; I was clueless abt the topic to be honest and I think the modest info he provided has encouraged me to better search on the topic.
Posts: 1813 | From: Cairo | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Ngeg: Well the book is divided into 8 chapters as follows:
A failed revolution The brothers Sufis and Christians The bedouin Torture Corruption Lost Dignity Egypt after Mubarak
Obviously all topics are Egyptian taboos. Being a foreigner the writer was exposed to situations and info that is usually kept from us-citizens. For instance, a copt would talk openly to him about discrimintation more than to me. A human rights NGO would reveal data and info in hope for "aid" Moreover his views on the revolution and such are so practical, vs the emotional version that citizens are exposed to through their parents and the media. Sufis; I was clueless abt the topic to be honest and I think the modest info he provided has encouraged me to better search on the topic.
Sounds interesting. The title of the last chapter makes me wonder about when was the book written, it's probably recent. Who's the author and what's his background? Unfortunately conspiracy theory is rife in the middle east, and writers are often assumed to have a hidden agenda. I'm not saying this one does by the way, I'm just pointing out the mind set in the region.
just a minor issue, is chapter 7 entitled "lost identity" or "lost dignity". You mention both! (how's that for being pedantic )
Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Right. It's lost dignity, I probably wrote identity bcz I was so caught up in the book and its terminology. Me says "pedantic" par excellence. He's British. Lived in the middle east for a long time and speaks arabic fluently. http://www.johnrbradley.com/ The book was published in April 2008.
You should try to read for Son'Allah Ibrahim. I believe he's one of the best Egyptian writers.
Posts: 1813 | From: Cairo | Registered: Aug 2002
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Just sharing something on my guy , Son'Allah on his winning a 100, 000 LE prize:
He turns his critical attention to parallel failings in the cultural field: We have no theatre, no cinema, no research, no education. We only have festivals and conferences and a trunkful of lies.
The auditorium goes wild. People applaud him and nod their heads in agreement with this unprecedented confrontational speech. More whispers from the crowd: Courageous words, but they remain just words...
Suddenly, Sonallah dumbfounds his audience and transforms the words into action:
I publicly decline the prize because it is awarded by a government that, in my opinion, lacks the credibility of bestowing it.
How about that for conspiracy theory ?
Posts: 1813 | From: Cairo | Registered: Aug 2002
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Ngeg long time no see! Ezayek? That book sounds v interesting, I wonder if I can order it online.
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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Hey baaaaaabe; How are you? I hope life is treating you well. The book is excellent. A bit depressing for an Egyptian. Try the John bradely link above, you can purchase it online from Amazon.
Hey, it's good to see you again
-------------------- Same crap...Different toilet Posts: 1813 | From: Cairo | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Ngeg: He's British. Lived in the middle east for a long time and speaks arabic fluently. http://www.johnrbradley.com/ The book was published in April 2008.
You should try to read for Son'Allah Ibrahim. I believe he's one of the best Egyptian writers.
Thanks for the link, I had a look at the description of the book. When I was in Egypt last summer almost everybody there (i.e. of different social backgrounds) were saying "something" will happen before the end of the year, presumably meaning an uprising. Well, the year has already gone and nothing happened, and I don't think it ever will.
In spite of what visitors to Egypt think and how things may appear, Egyptian are very peaceful, they hardly ever had a violant uprising or revolution in recent history. Forget 1952, that was the army, also with Orabi's revolution, he was an officer in the army too. And that's the key issue, any change to happen in Egypt has to come from the army. Maybe Egyptians are not peaceful, maybe they're just worried about their "piece of bread"! or maybe they're downright cowards. Certainly the Algerians didn't put up with opression and turned their country into hell in a Sampson sort of way. Also the Iranians had a popular revolution, irrespective of how you feel about it, it did completely change the regime and the system. As for the vast majority of Egyptians, they worry too much about life that they wouldn't be willing to put the necessary sacrifice for change (most of us included by the way!).
I believe it was Benjamin Franklin who said something along the lines of "those who trade freedom for security deserve neither"
Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Sashyra8: Done:just ordered it.
Yes me too!
Ngeg, you can go collect your commission now well done So, what's the next book you're promoting, lol.
Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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I hate the fact that I dislike Sonallah Ibrahim. I really really want to like him but I just can't| I love reading and I've read almost every Naguib Mahfouz, Ihsan Abdel Kodous and Youssef el Sebeiy novels out there. But Sonallah, I don't know, but his writing is just a bit odd.
I read el Lagna (the committee) a few years ago and didn't enjoy it at all.
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by young at heart:
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Sashyra8: Done:just ordered it. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes me too!
----------------------------------------
Me three! I bet hubby nicks it off me before i get Posts: 895 | Registered: Sep 2007
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Google today launched a free service allowing people to read books on their mobile phones.
The internet firm is offering 1.5million electronic novels to download, including classics such as Oliver Twist, Emma and The Jungle Book..
Posts: 3773 | From: unfinished thought | Registered: Nov 2008
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quote:Originally posted by * 7ayat *: I hate the fact that I dislike Sonallah Ibrahim.
I read el Lagna (the committee) a few years ago and didn't enjoy it at all.
Mish mesada2a!!! Serious? I seem to adore th guy. He's really simple and straight fwd, doesn't play with words.. But may be you are right, I remember it took me a good 20 pages to get hooked to his "amrikanli" which later on became one of my most promoted, all time favorite novel Posts: 1813 | From: Cairo | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis: So, what's the next book you're promoting, lol. [/QB]
Hey, I should actually start collecting commission... Then I should quit working all together and devote all my time to reading and make lots and lots of money out of it.
I'm currently reading a book by Ghazi Abdul Rahman Algosaibi, a a Saudi Arabian politician. I highly suspect any of his work is translated unfortunately.
Posts: 1813 | From: Cairo | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis: I believe it was Benjamin Franklin who said something along the lines of "those who trade freedom for security deserve neither" [/QB]
I think this is what the book revolves around...They actually deserve nothing and get nothing!!! And when you look at it, in that sense, neither did Egyptian keep their piece of bread/security nor did they keep their freedom, pride or faith.
Posts: 1813 | From: Cairo | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by young at heart: The book arrived today. Looking forward to starting it.
Mine arrived but still need to go to pick it up to my post office station. Will do such this Friday.
Posts: 3833 | From: here,there,everywhere | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ngeg: Then I should quit working all together and devote all my time to reading and make lots and lots of money out of it.
Ngeg, this is indeed a role we're missing in the Egyptian press, the mainstream one at least. I mean the role of a book reveiwer. ElAhram newspaper used to have some book reviews in its Friday supplement, I'm not sure if they still do it. It wasn't in depth though, and unless the reviewer has a good reputation then you tend to assume s/he's promoting rather than critiquing the book (probably written by one of their mates, or maybe even they've been invited for a dinner or a trip in return for a review! tut tut, cynical Ramses). Sometimes Anis Mansour used to briefly mention some books, also Ahmad Bahgat (both Ahram writers), but I don't believe we have someone who does that for a living. Seriously Ngeg, if you're an avid reader, why don't you approach one of the mainstream newspapers or magazines with such an idea. Maybe even do it for free at the begining, until you develop a following. I suppose the question is, is there a market for such a role? Do people read, and if they do, do they base it on a book review or a recommendation of friend or an ad in the papers, etc.
Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ngeg: Then I should quit working all together and devote all my time to reading and make lots and lots of money out of it.
Seriously Ngeg, if you're an avid reader, why don't you approach one of the mainstream newspapers or magazines with such an idea. Maybe even do it for free at the begining, until you develop a following. I suppose the question is, is there a market for such a role? Do people read, and if they do, do they base it on a book review or a recommendation of friend or an ad in the papers, etc.
I agree about the almost non existant book reviews. So, thanks to you , I approached my close friend who owns an all photos of beautiful people/no articles magazine,a very popular one. I think she was taken by the idea, she thinks that it must be so "stylish" to read since it's stylish to wear the prada and BLV/Swarovski rectangular glasses.
Egyptians do read. They just limit their info intake to specific topics in newspapers. Books aren't cheap, sometimes books are considered a luxury that a pack of ciagerettes would beat anytime.
When I bought books abt postpartum depression, homosexuality, or buddhism , my family and friends get all excited and argumentative Posts: 1813 | From: Cairo | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Ngeg: I agree about the almost non existant book reviews. So, thanks to you , I approached my close friend who owns an all photos of beautiful people/no articles magazine,a very popular one. I think she was taken by the idea, she thinks that it must be so "stylish" to read since it's stylish to wear the prada and BLV/Swarovski rectangular glasses.
Well done you! just don't forget us when you become a celebrity, don't let your secretary make me wait for too long when I come visit you in your shiney office in a high rise building in the middle of Cairo or Dubai, or maybe even Fleet street! Remember SQ's chaos theory, maybe this is your Brazillian butterfly moment!
Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Ah, I had to look up "Chaos theory"..You smart you!
I actually work in one of those high rise fancy bldgs by the Nile Cornish. No need to wait for a rich and famous Ngeg , You should come visit- Lunch is on me Posts: 1813 | From: Cairo | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Ngeg: Ah, I had to look up "Chaos theory"..You smart you!
I actually work in one of those high rise fancy bldgs by the Nile Cornish. No need to wait for a rich and famous Ngeg , You should come visit- Lunch is on me
It was SQ (Shanta Qadeema) actually who brought Chaos theory into ES, so she deserves the credit. I'd love to come visit you but unfortunately my trans-continental beaming device is not working at the moment.
But back to the topic of reading, I remember when I used to go to the book fair it was always croweded there, although admittedly this was many years ago and things weren't that bad back then and also the internet wasn't that popular.
My experience was that many of the not so well educated people tend to read religious books in particular. Those are well known so called "mothers of books", obviously a review won't be of much value there since those are already well known books. I often wondered though if people really understood what they read. I'm not being patronising here, it's just with the one or two such books I had attempted to read, I didn't find very reader friendly. Others of course may have different experiences.
Anyway, when you have your first published review can you post a link to it. Good luck!
Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I've started to read the book, when attention was cought by the interview with the doctor (Okasha) of a psychiatric clinic. I already have been placing questionmarks by the subject psychologic complaints by too many Egyptians: depression, fears,psychosomatic issue's,etc. The last straw was strong fears and behaving unmanagable by a young boy, a child in real. I am convinced a lot of these disorders are caused by the way they use to live, by the culture, customs and habits. Not unimportant fact is that making people (or children) scared and afraid seems to be the only way to controll them. The people are not free to say what they like, they are not free to do what they want, a lot is forbidden and haram, there is an enormous social controll en social judgement, and there are no certainties at all. As there are uncountable numbers of laws where nobody obeys to, at the same time everyone can become a victim from that same obedience. That's how you create cowards, hypocrites, and doublefacedness,sneakily and vicious persons, afraid to look into a mirror, and, as it seems mentally ill people. http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/185/3/266
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
At the moment im on the Tortures chapter and it gets juicier but also somber the more i read into. Im even outlining some points/situations to ask about or comment later.
Posts: 3833 | From: here,there,everywhere | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ngeg: Then I should quit working all together and devote all my time to reading and make lots and lots of money out of it.
Seriously Ngeg, if you're an avid reader, why don't you approach one of the mainstream newspapers or magazines with such an idea. Maybe even do it for free at the begining, until you develop a following. I suppose the question is, is there a market for such a role? Do people read, and if they do, do they base it on a book review or a recommendation of friend or an ad in the papers, etc.
I agree about the almost non existant book reviews. So, thanks to you , I approached my close friend who owns an all photos of beautiful people/no articles magazine,a very popular one. I think she was taken by the idea, she thinks that it must be so "stylish" to read since it's stylish to wear the prada and BLV/Swarovski rectangular glasses.
Egyptians do read. They just limit their info intake to specific topics in newspapers. Books aren't cheap, sometimes books are considered a luxury that a pack of ciagerettes would beat anytime.
When I bought books abt postpartum depression, homosexuality, or buddhism , my family and friends get all excited and argumentative
You are right, Egyptians like to read. I remember a few years ago, I was going through an Ihsan Abdel Kodous phase and every week I used to go to the hairdresser with one of his books to read while I'm getting my hair done. Then one day the lady who was working on my hair asked if she can borrow the book I had when I'm done. I gave it to her and when she was done, another one working in the shop asked to borrow it too and this went on until they all read it. And from that day, I lent them every book I read after I finished it. This totally confirmed my belief that they do like to read but can't afford to buy the books. It's kind of sad.
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ngeg: Guys, what do you think of it? I'm in chapter 7 "lost identity" and I find the book simply fanatstic. It hurts to admit that-being an Egyptian-I learned a lot on matters I seemed to be clueless about.
The book is still banned, removed from Virgin megastores after a few days. But somehow it's being sold at the AUC bookshop.
The chapter Lost Dignity should be published here. It explains a lot for the ones who are having questions about it. In the end even the one who seemed good, tried to hassle...
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
" And from that day, I lent them every book I read after I finished it. This totally confirmed my belief that they do like to read but can't afford to buy the books. It's kind of sad ."
Awww 7ayat, I loved your story. Don't you think that till 20 years ago , reading was also a luxury? Always has. But at that time it was a sign of intelect and class. May be bcz ppl now have a misconception abt the value of brand names and that of knowledge.
Posts: 1813 | From: Cairo | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Ngeg: Guys, what do you think of it?
The chapter Lost Dignity should be published here. It explains a lot for the ones who are having questions about it. In the end even the one who seemed good, tried to hassle...
Please elaborate. This is a riddle
Posts: 1813 | From: Cairo | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
That man, I think his name was Ahmed, who used to spend the nights while doing his second job, on the roof of the budget-hotel the author stayed in. After spending numerous evenings brainstorming about the culture-changes and the problems in life .About the Egyptian men were 3 out of 4 was married to a 50/60 year old foreign lady, where all the land was sold against high prices because these ladies were able to pay this amounts, in order to build them a villa, so that his children coulnd't afford to buy anymore, about the homosexual contacts between Egyptian and foreign men, it really became the biggest male whorehouse of the Middle-East. Anyway, after all this complaints from the man's side, he asked for a loan from € 25.000,-. He never would be able to pay this back, but he thought their relationship was close enough to ask. After all the judgements he had against his fellow-compatriots, he did exactly the same: asking for money. The author asked some time to think it over. promised to come back after a few weeks, changed his mobile number and never returned again.
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ?????: I've started to read the book, when attention was cought by the interview with the doctor (Okasha) of a psychiatric clinic. .......
I don't believe in the whole discipline of psychology, I have yet to see a "psychological patient" cured by such practice. I think a lot of it is convention about what is and is not normal or acceptable, which obviously differs from culture to culture. In this respect I lean towards the views of R.D. Lang (that's not KD Lang btw) and Szasz (could never pronounce the bugger's name!) and the whole antipsychology movement which - most ironically - was started by psychologists. I have to emphasize though that I'm not a specialist, so those are my personal views as a member of the public if you wish.
As for Egyptians having problems, I don't disagree with you on that irrespective of whether we call them psychological or social or personal or what have you. I don't necessarily agree with you on the cause though. A lot of the practices you mention have been around for generations and probably in other cultures as well. Talking about the causes will take too much time and space than I have time for at the moment.
Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ?????: .... About the Egyptian men were 3 out of 4 was married to a 50/60 year old foreign lady, ....., about the homosexual contacts between Egyptian and foreign men, it really became the biggest male whorehouse of the Middle-East. Anyway, after all this complaints from the man's side, he asked for a loan from € 25.000,-....
Come on, he couldn't possibly be serious 3 out of 4 men!!! How come I've never met any of them or know anybody who have. He's probably refering to tourist areas, certainly not areas where the average Egyptians dwell. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I seriously doubt at that rate. Similarly for male prostitution!!!!!!!!!! Seems from the last part of your post that he was telling those things because he might have percieved that that's what the author had wanted to hear, and so thought if he'd give him what he wanted the author would reciprocate by giving the guy what he wanted which is clearly money. In my view, this last bit undermines the credibility of the whole story (this particular one that is)
Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
The author refered specially to Luxor,Ramses Nemesis. Im on that chapter at the moment. Posts: 3833 | From: here,there,everywhere | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by ?????: I've started to read the book, when attention was cought by the interview with the doctor (Okasha) of a psychiatric clinic. .......
I don't believe in the whole discipline of psychology, I have yet to see a "psychological patient" cured by such practice. I think a lot of it is convention about what is and is not normal or acceptable, which obviously differs from culture to culture. In this respect I lean towards the views of R.D. Lang (that's not KD Lang btw) and Szasz (could never pronounce the bugger's name!) and the whole antipsychology movement which - most ironically - was started by psychologists. I have to emphasize though that I'm not a specialist, so those are my personal views as a member of the public if you wish.
As for Egyptians having problems, I don't disagree with you on that irrespective of whether we call them psychological or social or personal or what have you. I don't necessarily agree with you on the cause though. A lot of the practices you mention have been around for generations and probably in other cultures as well. Talking about the causes will take too much time and space than I have time for at the moment.
I agree there are a lot of people, nowdays diagnosed with a psychological disability, while 50 years ago, they just would have been labeled as a noisy person, or hyperactive. ADHD, PDD-NOS, or whatever kind of disabilities, weren't known then, and they were seen as different or strange. So, if normal is the standard, what's normal? IMO abnormal is when the person isn't able to lead a life like others in that same society, for which reason that might be...
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ?????: So, if normal is the standard, what's normal? IMO abnormal is when the person isn't able to lead a life like others in that same society, for which reason that might be...
I totally agree with you, the same applies to issues of sexuality as well. btw, I meant antipsychiatry not antipsychology, just for the record!
Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
As far as I know, the only difference between a psychiatrist and a psychologist is the education: a psychologist has studied on the area of psychology ( labour, social, clinical), while a psychiatrist is a medical doctor, later specialised himself in psychiatry. A psychiatrist is allowed to describe medicines,while a psychologist is not.( In my country)
Psychiatry is a medical field that is changing all the time. Only 30 years ago all the patiënts were locked behind doors and fences, nowdays as long as they are not harming other, free to go. As long as there is no danger for others, nobody can force them to get treatments, unless they want it themselves. A whole new field is the psychiatric treatment of people who have been guilty on criminal acts: rapes, murders, robbery etc. and the drug-addictions. The time from electroshock-therapy and isolation is far behind us. At the most there is some unethical (ab)use from medication to keep them calm... I don't think psychiatry in Egypt is the same...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ?????: That man, I think his name was Ahmed, who used to spend the nights while doing his second job, on the roof of the budget-hotel the author stayed in. ..... After all the judgements he had against his fellow-compatriots, he did exactly the same: asking for money. The author asked some time to think it over. promised to come back after a few weeks, changed his mobile number and never returned again.
Yes I remember this part. Thanks for elabortaing. But then when you think about it, he only complained bcz he initially couldn't do the same. The easiest thing ppl can do when they have a choice is to imitate each other unfortunately.
Posts: 1813 | From: Cairo | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
In doing business it's a compliment, when others imitate you...means that you are successfull. So, in fact that's also the case here. As long as there are enough men succussfull in what they earn and how, there will be imitators. Their knowledge is shared, and their skills are growing day by day. At arrival an clumsy traditional man, after time a skillfull predator with a villa and a car, and a dozen sponsoring sugarmama's, or sugardaddy's, because that also seems to be common. Yek. What people do for money....
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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I love reading and I've read almost every Naguib Mahfouz, Ihsan Abdel Kodous and Youssef el Sebeiy novels out there. But Sonallah, I don't know, but his writing is just a bit odd. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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and it gets juicier but also somber the more i read into. 
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