posted
Hi folks! Someone is seeking advice regarding mixed faith (and culture) marriage. He's an Eygptian muslim gentleman. He wouldn't consider himself particularly religous, but like many men of his generation and social background, he observes the "five pillars" (not hajj though) and avoids the so called "majors".
She's an English Catholic lady who's quite religous. She goes to church every Sunday, which is quite unusual in England as the English don't really do religion as some of you would know, certainly not in the way Americans do. Of course there are always exceptions but I believe this is a general trait of the English, at least in my experience. At some point in the past she had even considered going into a monestary (I suppose nunnery would be more technically correct). No she's not emotionally disturbed or anything of that sort that people tend to associate with women who "answer the call"
Now before you get the wrong idea, they're both professionals, well educated and of suitable age (he's a few years older than her). He currently resides in the UK but may decide at some point in the future to go back to Egypt.
He met her through a mutual friend, he likes her and thinks she's a nice and kind girl. However, he's only intersted in marriage and believes that following one's heart is not a good enough reason for marriage, you have to follow your head as well.
So, after such a long introduction, here's what he's seeking advice on from those in a mixed faith/culture marriage, in particular where the man is Egyptian moslem and the lady is christian foreigner.
1- What would you consider to be the greatest challenge in your marriage, and how did this change with time. i.e. what is most challenging today may take the back seat tomorrow and something else becomes more so. Of course I mean challenge in the cultural sense, not financial or professional, ...etc.
2- How do you feel about bringing up your children. Like many muslim men, he'd like his children to be muslim, even with muslim names. How do you feel about that (did your view change before marriage and after getting married?).
3- She drinks socially, but he NEVER allows alcohol in his household. Is this something you would be willing to give up, and how dificult is it?
4- Again, like many Egyptian men of similar background, he wouldn't like his wife to show too much flesh (none to be honest!), so how do you feel about that. Would it make you feel controlled, or would you feel that you're giving up something to please him?
It wouldn't bother him at all that you observe your religion by the way, i.e. go to church, etc.
I have to stress that he's currently in the considering phase not the deciding one. Your advice will help him make the decision. It would be nice to get the views of both sides, the man and the woman, in particular English women who I understand there are lot of whom around here. Any info other than what's mentioned above would be greatly appreciated. I have numbered my points so you can just reply by mentioning the number rather than repeating the text.
Thanks for taking the time to read this, and my apologies for it being so long. All replies and advice will be highly appreciated and taken with respect.
All the best and may whoever is married or in a serious relationship have a long and happy one. God bless
Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
He's an Eygptian muslim gentleman. He wouldn't consider himself particularly religous, but like many men of his generation and social background, he observes the "five pillars" (not hajj though) and avoids the so called "majors".
What exactly is his social background? Considering yourself not very religious with, at the same time, having doubts about the allowed rate of showing flesh and an occassional drink, are in contradiction with each other. If it's not his religion that makes him feel this way, it is his social background?
What does the lady think about the whole case? Is she also in the considering phase, and what does SHE expect from her coming husband? Does she have problems with a husband who is making decisions about her, how to dress, what to drink, and maybe more?
I once talked to an Egyptian man who also had these classical traditional thoughts. His wife converted, their children became muslim with muslim names, she gave up her study, in fact she was the one who had to give up the most. Now, 25 years later, he regrets that he ever thought this way. He said that he was wrong, at that time, and that it was unfair.
He has met the lady as she is, got interested in her the way she is, so it looks like that was a good enough for some time, but not for all the time??? It's not fair to demand changes...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis: 1- For ME, the biggest challenges came when I forgot my faith. We have never had a problem with our mixed religion marriage. The religion has been easy. Here's what I mean - in a Christian marriage, the man is the head of the house. In Egyptian culture, the man is the head of the house. In an Islamic marriage, the man is one degree above a woman. In the western culture, husbands and wives are equal. It was the times when I forgot to let my husband be the head of the house (or quietly let him believe he was) that we had our biggest problems.
2 Our children were raised in America and watched their parents practice their faith independently of each other and along side each other. In Egypt, they are Muslim. In America, they were, yes, raised "Islamically" however they are still searching for themselves. Their father and I both know that will come, in time, when God wants it to and it will come, in time, the way God wants it to. For now, we are patient.
As for names, they got English translations of Muslim names for first names and Muslim middle names. That was how we met in the middle on that one.
3- I did "give it up," not that it was a big part of my life pre-husband. It was easy, especially because I decided that was not the hill I wanted to die on.
4 Personally, I dress modestly anyway. Before I met him, before I married him, before, before, before. That's the way I was raised. Lowering the hems of my skirts a few inches wasn't an issue and, today, more than 20 years later, it's still my preference. When I'm in Egypt, I am free to cover my skin. In America, I can't do it as easily (although I do it whenever I can) and I just wear really long skirts/dresses only they don't drag the ground.
It wouldn't bother him at all that you observe your religion by the way, i.e. go to church, etc.
As a Muslim, he had to allow me to practice my faith. He didn't have a choice. But I can say this, early on what he most admired was my faith and, to this day, when he talks about it there is love in his eyes.
For more than 20 years this man, my husband, has taken me to church on Sunday (morning in America, evening in Egypt) and sat in the back row while I had my time. He's never complained. He's never been too busy. He's never degraded my religion and, after all this time he's never finished learning about it even though it's not for him. That's okay, though because, to me, the most beautiful part of him is his own faith.
But I can say this, early on what he most admired was my faith and, to this day, when he talks about it there is love in his eyes.
It's really interesting that that's exactly what he liked about her as well! I mean the fact that she takes her religion seriously, especially that that makes her an odd one out amongst her peers. To him it reflects moral resilience and having an integrated moral framework. Please don't take this to mean that those without a religion are without morals, I'm absolutely not suggesting that. It seems there are a lot of similarities between your story and his. He certainly does not expect her to change her religion. In fact he doesn't believe in changing religion for any other reason than pure faith.
Stayingput, thank you so much for putting the time to reply to my post.
Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Questionmarks: Considering yourself not very religious with, at the same time, having doubts about the allowed rate of showing flesh and an occassional drink, are in contradiction with each other. If it's not his religion that makes him feel this way, it is his social background?
This is a very good point. It is a bit of a contradiction.
My husband considers himself to be "moderate". We have no issues in our marriage. We are not planning on having children, but if we did I would not mind them having Muslim names or being raised Muslim. In fact, I would encourage it. Personally, I am not a religious person at all and don't consider myself to be a Christian either. (I do believe in God but do not follow any particular faith.) I did not stop drinking and I did not change anything about the way I dress in Egypt (or in the States). I always dressed moderately anyway, but I do wear capri pants and short sleeve shirts. My husband has said that if we lived in the States he would not care if I walked around naked, but here in Egypt he does not want me to push the "social boundry" that exists with clothing. But I don't do this anyway because it is not my stlye.
Posts: 1626 | From: whatever, wherever | Registered: Jul 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Questionmarks: What exactly is his social background? Considering yourself not very religious with, at the same time, having doubts about the allowed rate of showing flesh and an occassional drink, are in contradiction with each other. If it's not his religion that makes him feel this way, it is his social background?
What does the lady think about the whole case? Is she also in the considering phase, and what does SHE expect from her coming husband? Does she have problems with a husband who is making decisions about her, how to dress, what to drink, and maybe more?
I once talked to an Egyptian man who also had these classical traditional thoughts. His wife converted, their children became muslim with muslim names, she gave up her study, in fact she was the one who had to give up the most. Now, 25 years later, he regrets that he ever thought this way. He said that he was wrong, at that time, and that it was unfair.
He has met the lady as she is, got interested in her the way she is, so it looks like that was a good enough for some time, but not for all the time??? It's not fair to demand changes...
Questionmarks, thanks for your reply. You are raising valid points that I'll attempt to address.
First let me say, that unlike you're acquaintance, he does not expect her to change her religion or give up her work, family, etc. However, he believes that compromise is an integral part of marriage and so both parties should be expecting to give up something.
As for his social class, he considers himself to be upper-middle class. Now you have to understand that the definition of classes or the demarkation point between them have changed in Egypt over the last few decades. People in Egypt nowadays tend to confuse class with wealth.
He grew up in a time when religion was not as much a source of values as it is now. I'm not saying that this is better or worse, I'm just stating a "fact" for those who remember those days.
He grew up in a household were alcohol was never allowed, yet none of the women in the house (not a single one) wore hijab. However, they did wear modestly like stayingput mentions, and they wore hats!! yes, that sounds surprising nowadays, but it wasn't until the early 70s. In fact his grandma wore them till the day she died only a few years ago!!!! So the point is, he's not at all confused about those issues. As for showing flesh, I think it's a male possessiveness thing, I don't know. Maybe some men (including him) feel that they are the only ones entitled to see their wives flesh. Maybe that's something negative, but I'm just describing the situation to you. To be honest, I don't see why agreeing to your wife showing too much flesh makes you a modern man worthy of more respect than someone who doesn't share this view. But then this is a matter of prevailing values in a given society. I personally believe that most Egyptians, both moslem and christian, tend to be conservative in dress. I don't mean the ones you see in the tourist places but the average middle class ones.
As for what the lady thinks, well he hasn't spoken to her yet. That's the point of the post, to help him to decide whether it's worth the problems that would come in the future or not. He wouldn't want to end up like your acquaintance and regret his decision 25 years later. He's mature enough not to follow his heart blindly but the whole issue has to appeal to his head as well.
Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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But I can say this, early on what he most admired was my faith and, to this day, when he talks about it there is love in his eyes.
It's really interesting that that's exactly what he liked about her as well! I mean the fact that she takes her religion seriously, especially that that makes her an odd one out amongst her peers. To him it reflects moral resilience and having an integrated moral framework. Please don't take this to mean that those without a religion are without morals, I'm absolutely not suggesting that. It seems there are a lot of similarities between your story and his. He certainly does not expect her to change her religion. In fact he doesn't believe in changing religion for any other reason than pure faith.
Stayingput, thank you so much for putting the time to reply to my post.
Here's my point of view on this but remember, it's only my opinion.
Egypt is 90% Muslim. The other 10% are either Christian or Jewish. Those are the only three officially recognized religions. There is a perpetual disagreement, and even distrust, between Christians and Muslims. That said, in my experience and that's the only information I have to offer up, Muslims, even the most devout Muslims, do not have a problem with OBSERVANT Christians. In fact, I would venture to say the more religious the Christian, the more Muslims like them and the more tolerant they are. In short, the stricter the Christian, the better.
But, know that as with any faith or profession of faith, talk is cheap. Both Christianity and Islam are, at their very foundations, to be lived in peace and harmony. When one walks the walk instead of talking the talk, there is also love, respect, and admiration for other human beings. This is the common ground - as I see it.
Anybody can go to church once a week and never let go of their rosary, just as anybody can smack their forehead on a mat at the Mosque five times a day or plop a hijab on their head. That doesn't make them religious. That doesn't mean they PRACTICE their faith. Faith is belief and religion is a lifestyle. Again, in my opinion because this was important to ME, a religious husband doesn't necessarily make a good husband but won't make a bad husband, either.
As long as they both live their faith and adhere to their religious beliefs, they will accept each other and each other's differences.
Trust me on this - the religion is the EASY part.
Posts: 758 | From: Here. There. Everywhere. | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis: [QUOTE] As for showing flesh, I think it's a male possessiveness thing, I don't know. Maybe some men (including him) feel that they are the only ones entitled to see their wives flesh. Maybe that's something negative, but I'm just describing the situation to you. To be honest, I don't see why agreeing to your wife showing too much flesh makes you a modern man worthy of more respect than someone who doesn't share this view. But then this is a matter of prevailing values in a given society. I personally believe that most Egyptians, both moslem and christian, tend to be conservative in dress. I don't mean the ones you see in the tourist places but the average middle class ones.
When you say "showing flesh" you are being rather vague. Some strict Muslim men would consider showing your wrist or ankle to be "showing flesh" and expect their wives to wear gloves and black socks.
If we are talking about wearing "daisy dukes", g-string bikinis, and short mini-skirts then, of course, most men (of any class) might not want their wife to appear in cetain settings (especially Egypt) dressed like this. But if all we are talking about here is a portion of the arm from the elbow and below exposed by wearing short sleeve shirts - then it may be going to far to say she is "showing flesh".
I onced emailed my resume to an American man who had converted to Islam because he claimed he could help me get a job. He promptly emailed me back and told me he deleted my resume without even reading it because it had my picture on it and my hair and face were uncovered. (Like I should have put my picture wearing niqab.) He said it was haram for him to look at the hair and face of a woman who was not his wife.
So different men consider "showing flesh" to be different things.
Posts: 1626 | From: whatever, wherever | Registered: Jul 2008
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quote:Originally posted by stayingput: Faith is belief and religion is a lifestyle.
Trust me on this - the religion is the EASY part.
Very wise words indeed. But your last sentence scare me a bit, and actually confuse me. In your previous post you mentioned that raising the children, giving up alcohol and dressing modestly were not the hard bits. I seem to have understood from your first point in your earlier post that your "biggest challenge" was related to faith. So if religion is the easy part, what is in your view the difficult one.? I just want to make sure I understood you correctly.
Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by The Ministry of Common Sense: If we are talking about wearing "daisy dukes", g-string bikinis, and short mini-skirts then, of course, most men (of any class) might not want their wife to appear in cetain settings (especially Egypt) dressed like this. But if all we are talking about here is a portion of the arm from the elbow and below exposed by wearing short sleeve shirts - then it may be going to far to say she is "showing flesh".
So different men consider "showing flesh" to be different things.
you're point is well taken. In my original post I mentioned showing "too much flesh" not just flesh, and that he doesn't consider himself religious, so not a "strict muslim" (however you define that!)
In short, I personally would agree with your interpretation of too much flesh that you mention above. Although in our household it wasn't short sleeves but what they used to call "trois quart". They also used to wear bathing suits when they went to the beach, although later on they stopped because it was becomming less socially acceptable in the 80s and 90s, or maybe because they were getting fat!!
btw, I don't know what's a daisy duke, but if it's along the lines of g-strings, then it's a no no.
Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by The Ministry of Common Sense: If we are talking about wearing "daisy dukes", g-string bikinis, and short mini-skirts then, of course, most men (of any class) might not want their wife to appear in cetain settings (especially Egypt) dressed like this. But if all we are talking about here is a portion of the arm from the elbow and below exposed by wearing short sleeve shirts - then it may be going to far to say she is "showing flesh".
So different men consider "showing flesh" to be different things.
you're point is well taken. In my original post I mentioned showing "too much flesh" not just flesh, and that he doesn't consider himself religious, so not a "strict muslim" (however you define that!)
In short, I personally would agree with your interpretation of too much flesh that you mention above. Although in our household it wasn't short sleeves but what they used to call "trois quart". They also used to wear bathing suits when they went to the beach, although later on they stopped because it was becomming less socially acceptable in the 80s and 90s, or maybe because they were getting fat!!
btw, I don't know what's a daisy duke, but if it's along the lines of g-strings, then it's a no no.
Daisy Dukes are very short shorts (like cut-off jeans) that usually show too much of the wearers backside when standing and all of it when sitting. They get their name from the character Daisy on the tv show "Dukes of Hazzard" which you can see on MBC action.
I agree with you that Egypt changed so much during the 80's. Prior to 1977 it was hard to see many women wearing hijab. If you watch the old black and white movie 3aelate Zizi for example, you can see a woman in her front yard in Egypt in a bathing suit doing yoga in plain sight of people passing by.
Posts: 1626 | From: whatever, wherever | Registered: Jul 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis: 1- For ME, the biggest challenges came when I forgot my faith. We have never had a problem with our mixed religion marriage. The religion has been easy. Here's what I mean - in a Christian marriage, the man is the head of the house. In Egyptian culture, the man is the head of the house. In an Islamic marriage, the man is one degree above a woman. In the western culture, husbands and wives are equal. It was the times when I forgot to let my husband be the head of the house (or quietly let him believe he was) that we had our biggest problems.
My religion says the husband is the head of the household, above his wife and between her and God. The problems, invariably, happened when I forgot that and tried to be the head of our household, the boss, the person in charge, and didn't let my husband have both his culture and his religion. That doesn't mean I'm on my knees to him. It means he's, well, between me and God and I have to remember and respect that. I have to put my western upbringing behind me so I don't see it sometimes. Other times, it's okay. It was hard to learn where to draw the line but, after many mistakes (and I'll admit nearly all of them were stupid mistakes on my part), I learned. Does that make sense?
(BTW: Daisy Dukes are really short shorts.)
Posts: 758 | From: Here. There. Everywhere. | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by stayingput: My religion says the husband is the head of the household, above his wife and between her and God. The problems, invariably, happened when I forgot that and tried to be the head of our household, the boss, the person in charge, and didn't let my husband have both his culture and his religion. That doesn't mean I'm on my knees to him. It means he's, well, between me and God and I have to remember and respect that. I have to put my western upbringing behind me so I don't see it sometimes. Other times, it's okay. It was hard to learn where to draw the line but, after many mistakes (and I'll admit nearly all of them were stupid mistakes on my part), I learned. Does that make sense?
(BTW: Daisy Dukes are really short shorts.)
Thanks for the clarification. Sorry, the confusion was on my part. I confused faith with religion and then religous norms with cultural norms.
yep, found out what Daisy Dukes are, just googled it, and well, ogled it Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis: As for showing flesh, I think it's a male possessiveness thing, I don't know. Maybe some men (including him) feel that they are the only ones entitled to see their wives flesh.
I'd be willing to bet the farm that's what it is - that combined with the Egyptian perception of what a "good woman" is, as opposed to a "bad woman."
Note - My Egyptian girlfriends would die a thousand deaths before they would allow a man, any man, other than their husbands to see their knees, elbows, neck, or even their panty lines. It goes both ways.
Posts: 758 | From: Here. There. Everywhere. | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis: As for showing flesh, I think it's a male possessiveness thing, I don't know. Maybe some men (including him) feel that they are the only ones entitled to see their wives flesh.
I'd be willing to bet the farm that's what it is - that combined with the Egyptian perception of what a "good woman" is, as opposed to a "bad woman."
Note - My Egyptian girlfriends would die a thousand deaths before they would allow a man, any man, other than their husbands to see their knees, elbows, neck, or even their panty lines. It goes both ways.
I know what you are saying - but I think it goes a little too far to think that looking at a neck or elbow can somehow be equated to looking at "flesh" or private parts which, no one would argue, should only be seen by a husband.
Posts: 1626 | From: whatever, wherever | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
C'mon girls, you got hung up on this flesh issue!
Anymore advice, anybody has any experience to share, positive or negative. I believe there are a lot of ladies around here who are or were married to Egyptians. I do understand those are private issues but you can present them in the third person, or even log as someone else.
Your advice can make someone eternally happy, either by encouraging him to do something wonderful or prevent him from doing something foolish. Here's your opportunity to do something good, to help a fellow human being who can use your advice! Imagine how contented you'll feel going to sleep tonight knowing you've helped someone realise their dream or avoid their nightmare Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis: C'mon girls, you got hung up on this flesh issue!
No, not really. This is one of those things one discusses in Egypt and while talking about Egypt. This is an issue perpetually talked about among women. If it's not "Oh, she dresses so respectful," it's "Do you see what she's wearing?!? How her husband let her go to outside wearing this? Maybe he not know?" and that can and often will turn into "Maybe they having problems in their home?"
Nope. We're not hung up on it, Egypt is.
Posts: 758 | From: Here. There. Everywhere. | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
One thing more about the flesh, the lady is religious, even that religious that she has overthought becoming a nun. I don't think it will be very likely that she show a too much of flesh.
About the acquaintance, this is the only Egyptian man I know, who still is married to his foreign wife. They have been married since a long time, and looking back in time, he now says to have made mistakes. (As we all do, so now and then) He said that it was only because his wife was loving enough, and patient enough, to find a compromise, knowing that he once would change his mind. He feels a bit ashamed about his past behaviour and his past demands. By the way, and very brave and honest that he doesn't cover it.
Maybe, your Egyptian friend should need such an advisor. An older man, who has had this all, did this all, expierenced this all, and found a way with it.
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
2- How do you feel about bringing up your children. Like many muslim men, he'd like his children to be muslim, even with muslim names. How do you feel about that (did your view change before marriage and after getting married?).
For me Ramses this is the hardest point in a mixed marriage. I am catholic (not so practising ) my husband is muslim. When we first met, we discussed these important points and came to the conclusion that our children would be brought up with a knowledge of ALL religions (esp mine and his ) and they will choose their own paths. I must admit as my husband has got older and our children have grown he sometimes finds this hard so i suppose this is our greatest challenge and can cause conflict in both mine and our childrens lives. As for the names, we chose names that are both Arabic and English, Adam for example.
I also drink (very rarely) and my husband does not have a problem with that.
I agree with ministry, when she says 'one mans too much flesh is not anothers'. I have always dressed modestly, wouldn't have my 'bits n bobs' on show but will wear a t-shirt with a skirt below my knee, for us that is modest but i know to others that is not. So i suppose that is a question of how your friend and the lady views 'too much flesh'.
I do think having children and how they will be raised is a biggy though, something one might find acceptable at the beginning of when your children are babies/toddlers they may not find acceptable when their children esp girls reach their teens. It is something that you really need to be aware of and something we do argue about - sometimes
I might add we live in the UK now we did live in Egypt together for the first 4 years.
Posts: 895 | Registered: Sep 2007
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I meant to say Ramses, from the few women i know married to muslim men (Egyptain, Algerian and Tunisian) All the women have made many many compromises for their relationships to work, in my humble opinion more so than the men. Most are very unhappy now because they have lost themselves for the sake of their men. If your friend cannot make ANY compromises if he were to go ahead with this relationship, i would advise him not to, or else he will be left with a very unhappy wife which in turn equates to an unhappy life. Posts: 895 | Registered: Sep 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis: C'mon girls, you got hung up on this flesh issue!
Anymore advice, anybody has any experience to share, positive or negative. I believe there are a lot of ladies around here who are or were married to Egyptians. I do understand those are private issues but you can present them in the third person, or even log as someone else.
Your advice can make someone eternally happy, either by encouraging him to do something wonderful or prevent him from doing something foolish. Here's your opportunity to do something good, to help a fellow human being who can use your advice! Imagine how contented you'll feel going to sleep tonight knowing you've helped someone realise their dream or avoid their nightmare
Deciding someone's future is an awful lot of pressure to put on us (if we give him the wrong advice will he blame us?)...but here is my advice for your friend:
There is no set formula to determine if 2 people are right for each other. They must start off with the basic foundation of love, trust, and a willingness to commit to each other. If these things are not present it would not matter if the woman was a saint - they would have problems.
You say your friend wants to follow his heart, but at the same time is worried about what his "mind" would tell him to do. However, it is my opinion that certain things should be ruled by the heart above all. In matters of love, if we start to worry about things on the surface - it may be that a deeper connection is missing.
It is also a common belief (held by many people who are in love and married for years) that when you meet "the one" you will know instantly that this is the person you will spend your life with.
Your friend may be doing the wrong thing by basing his decision on the experiences of others. We are all affected differently by the same things. What has worked for me, might not work for someone else. Instead you should ask your friend what his gut feeling is telling him.
And have him answer this one question: If he had to spend every day for the rest of his life waking up beside only one person - would he want it to be that woman. Then ask him what he sees in her soul. That is more important than how she dresses or anything on the outside.
I know your friend is just seeking validation for a decision he has already made. Tell him to trust his instinct and follow his heart.
Posts: 1626 | From: whatever, wherever | Registered: Jul 2008
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quote:Originally posted by happybunny: Great post Qmarks!
I meant to say Ramses, from the few women i know married to muslim men (Egyptain, Algerian and Tunisian) All the women have made many many compromises for their relationships to work, in my humble opinion more so than the men. Most are very unhappy now because they have lost themselves for the sake of their men. If your friend cannot make ANY compromises if he were to go ahead with this relationship, i would advise him not to, or else he will be left with a very unhappy wife which in turn equates to an unhappy life.
Thanks happybunny and QM for your input. Trust me, he genuinely believes that marriage is all about compromise. He once refused a Dutch/Morrocan moslem lady because she told him she wasn't willing to compromise. Basically wanting him to follow her sheepishly. It's just that the issues I've mentioned at the begining are the ones he feels most strongly about and is perhaps less flexible (though not totally rigid) about. Mind you he didn't mention anything about her career or where they should live (Egypt, UK, somewhere else), or whether she's expected to contribute financially, or how many children they should have (assuming both are fertile), which is an important bit given that she's a devout chatholic. My point is that there are many many things that he's very flexible with, but the ones mentioned in the first post are the more important to him.
Of all what's been said by everybody, the children issue would worry him most. If it wasn't for children, I don't think he would've hesitated. But then is it wise to base one's decisions on something that may never happen? I don't have the answer to that, because there's always the possibility that it may actually happen (I mean having children).
Thanks ladies for your time, keep your input comming please. Any men with something to contribute?
Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by The Ministry of Common Sense:
In matters of love, if we start to worry about things on the surface - it may be that a deeper connection is missing.
It is also a common belief (held by many people who are in love and married for years) that when you meet "the one" you will know instantly that this is the person you will spend your life with.
What has worked for me, might not work for someone else. Instead you should ask your friend what his gut feeling is telling him.
Then ask him what he sees in her soul. That is more important than how she dresses or anything on the outside.
I know your friend is just seeking validation for a decision he has already made. Tell him to trust his instinct and follow his heart.
My goodness Ministry, such wise words. I can relate to everything you say, you seem to have great intuition, you seemed to have read through my words and got right to the heart of the issue.
It's interesting that you use the phrase "her soul" because that's what attracted him to her. I believe like stayingput mentioned, it probably has to do with her inner faith (irrespective of her religion).
But what scares me most is what you mention about him just looking for validation of a decision already taken (although he might not be aware of the decision).
Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Quote: Any men with something to contribute? On ES??? It's like finding a needle in a haystack!!!
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Questionmarks: Quote: Any men with something to contribute? On ES??? It's like finding a needle in a haystack!!!
lol! but in fairness, a lot of the "regulars" didn't contribute either! I mean TL, Aysha, those are the names that come to mind at the moment. Is penny out there? I'd love to know her view on the issue as she seems a rational person.
Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis: Mind you he didn't mention anything about her career or where they should live (Egypt, UK, somewhere else), or whether she's expected to contribute financially, or how many children they should have (assuming both are fertile), which is an important bit given that she's a devout chatholic.[/QB]
IF she decides to work, her money is her own. That is not something he would mention because it is ISLAM and he, as a Muslim, knows this.
Where they will live will be an issue and they will have to reach an agreement.
If they were to have children, in Egypt they will be Muslim. That's the law.
Posts: 758 | From: Here. There. Everywhere. | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by The Ministry of Common Sense: [QUOTE]
It is also a common belief (held by many people who are in love and married for years) that when you meet "the one" you will know instantly that this is the person you will spend your life with.
I totally agree with you there Mini. When I met my husband I knew within a week he was "the one" At that point we had only gone out for a coffee two times and I barely knew him but I had this strong feeling. I remember calling my mother and telling her I had met my future husband. Before meeting him I never in a million years thought thought I'd ever be involved with a non Western man.I had a certain stereotype in my mind as to how I thought men from the Middle East would be and I imagined that the cultural differences would be too great to make a relationship possible.
We have had to make compromises on both our parts to make this work, but we do it because we love each other. I think if you love someone enough then you can make it work, but the effort has to come from both parties.
I also think we have an advantage as neither of us live in England or Egypt our respective home countries so we don't have to face the daily aspects of life we would have to deal with living in these countries.
Posts: 500 | From: United Arab Emirates | Registered: Jul 2008
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quote:Originally posted by stayingput: IF she decides to work, her money is her own. That is not something he would mention because it is ISLAM and he, as a Muslim, knows this.
Where they will live will be an issue and they will have to reach an agreement.
If they were to have children, in Egypt they will be Muslim. That's the law.
Absolutely. I'm just saying that he's happily willing to make concessions on those issues, not all men do. Some men expect the woman to contribute to the household expenses, some even live off the woman. Others may expect her to stay at home. Still others would like her to come to Egypt rather than he live in her country, etc.
The point I'm making is that he's not as rigid as you may think he is, it's just certain issues are more important to him than others. The point is whether she's willing to concede on the issues that are important to him given that he's willing to concede on the other issues. I know this makes it sound like trading concessions, but that's not the intention, even if it appears as such.
Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Dubai Girl: I totally agree with you there Mini. When I met my husband I knew within a week he was "the one"
I imagined that the cultural differences would be too great to make a relationship possible.
We have had to make compromises on both our parts to make this work, but we do it because we love each other. I think if you love someone enough then you can make it work, but the effort has to come from both parties.
Yes DG, I agree with you. But I suppose you were probably young when you made this decision. The older you get, the more your head takes control over your heart. The ratio of head/heart in the decision tilts towards the head. He doesn't want to underestimate the gravity of the marriage decision. He believes it should be taken too seriously to be made just on the bases of love. How many times have the heart been mistaken. You only need to read some of the stories that used to crop up here every now and then. He tends to consider himself a rational person, not to negate emotions of course, but would like to feel both mentally and emotionally comfortable with a decision. Because in this case he's achieved one and not the other, that's why he's seeking advice here.
Thanks for your input.
Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis: [QUOTE] He tends to consider himself a rational person, not to negate emotions of course, but would like to feel both mentally and emotionally comfortable with a decision. Because in this case he's achieved one and not the other, that's why he's seeking advice here.
Thanks for your input.
Sounds like you know this guy better than he knows himself Posts: 1626 | From: whatever, wherever | Registered: Jul 2008
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I don't know...so she's very religious Christian..I don't know so many very religious Christian women but those I do they choose not to marry a Muslim because of many issues, the biggest being that I think many of them would want to see their children as Christians. I personally would see this as a problem. And even if a woman is not religious and not a Muslim it will probably affect children, they will wonder why mommy doesn't pray or spend ramadan etc. How he will react if his children (at young age) resists if he wants to teach them about Islam? When your children are adults they can choose themselves - but I guess this doesn't make those fathers happy either if they were hoping (or should I say wanting) their children to be Muslim.
Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by The Ministry of Common Sense: Sounds like you know this guy better than he knows himself
ok, now you really really scare me, it's official . Are you a psychic?
Well, his name is Ramses nemesis, and he prefers to speak about himself in the third person a) because he doesn't feel comfortable talking about himself, he feels there's an element of arrogance in that that he detests b) it makes him in a sense detach himself from the issue and be able to present it more objectively.
Happy now Now that you have more info, what does your psychic powers tell you about the whole issue?
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Well I only made the decision a year ago... I just got married last month, so I suppose you can say I am wearing rose tinted glasses
I'm almost 30, so that's not so young is it?
The thing is with any marriage there are no guarantees, whether it be a mixed marriage or not. I think having the same values is an important factor. Also agreeing on future circumstances. I know in my case we discussed every possible aspect we could think of beforehand, where to live, having children etc but I'm not so naive that I think there won't be issues in the future that we haven't thought of right now.
Posts: 500 | From: United Arab Emirates | Registered: Jul 2008
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I think, if she is really catholic and religious, then she will not be able to get married to you outside church. That's the first problem you have to think about.
Posts: 14 | From: UAE | Registered: May 2009
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quote:Originally posted by The Ministry of Common Sense: Sounds like you know this guy better than he knows himself
ok, now you really really scare me, it's official . Are you a psychic?
Well, his name is Ramses nemesis, and he prefers to speak about himself in the third person a) because he doesn't feel comfortable talking about himself, he feels there's an element of arrogance in that that he detests b) it makes him in a sense detach himself from the issue and be able to present it more objectively.
Happy now Now that you have more info, what does your psychic powers tell you about the whole issue?
I know someone who went with her head or maybe her gut feeling. She doesn't really know if it was the right choice or not yet but its still painful for her.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: [QUOTE]I know someone who went with her head or maybe her gut feeling. She doesn't really know if it was the right choice or not yet but its still painful for her.
The only thing certain in life is DEATH and TAXES.
Posts: 1626 | From: whatever, wherever | Registered: Jul 2008
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Should it be possible that the fascination/admiration for that woman is because of her religious soul? I am talking about something I am not familiar with, but in Holland the women who are nuns, are very different as others. Stepping into a monastery, becoming a nun, means that they have decided to lay their lifes in the hands of God. They even wear a weddingring, because they are symbolic married to God. It depends on what kind of monastery, but some spend their lifes in total silence, some are having sort of job, some monasteries are even selfdependant, they have a sister electrician, a sister plummer, sister farmer etc. During times it was not possible for monasteries to do that all on their own, for instance because of gouvernment laws, and they needed 'outside' expierence. We had a monastery as customer, because we had to do that outside expierence. ALL the mechanics were fascinated when they noticed how these women live, how they think, etc. It is a very interesting subject, why women decided to become a nun, the differences between all these monasteries, etc. It's a complete different life. Maybe it should be usefull to know more about that, before taking any further steps.
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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What the hell is a "Muslim" name anyway? I never understood why converts change their names when they become Muslim.
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by stayingput: For more than 20 years this man, my husband, has taken me to church on Sunday (morning in America, evening in Egypt) and sat in the back row while I had my time. He's never complained. He's never been too busy. He's never degraded my religion and, after all this time he's never finished learning about it even though it's not for him. That's okay, though because, to me, the most beautiful part of him is his own faith. [/qb]
[/QB][/QUOTE]
AWWWWWWWWWW That is so sweet Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by * 7ayat *: What the hell is a "Muslim" name anyway? I never understood why converts change their names when they become Muslim.
I've never understood the "Muslim" name thing either. According to my husband, it's a name from the Qu'ran and/or one of Allah's 99 names - even though many, many common names in Egypt have nothing to do with Islam.
As for converts changing their names, that never made sense to me either, particularly considering the Islamic view of adoption and not changing names and I think Islam is pretty clear about names and changing names. Then there's the Afrikan tradition of not calling anyone a name other than the name they were given at birth out of fear God won't know who they're talking about. Egypt is in AFRICA. I think that's because many western converts, somehow, for some reason, believe that in order to be truly Muslim they must also be Arab. If that were the case, Allah (God) would not allow anyone outside of the Arab nations to be Muslim.
Posts: 758 | From: Here. There. Everywhere. | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by stayingput: [QUOTE] Then there's the Afrikan tradition of not calling anyone a name other than the name they were given at birth out of fear God won't know who they're talking about. Egypt is in AFRICA.
Isn't that funny though. Muslims believe God sees everything and knows everything right down the the smallest detail of missing one prayer...but by the time they get to Heaven - will God have become senile and forgotten who they were if they changed their name.
If that's the case, every western woman who changes their last name with marriage is screwed. Not only does it cause a nightmare with the DMV and IRS - but now you have gone and confused God as well.
Posts: 1626 | From: whatever, wherever | Registered: Jul 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Coptic Philosopher: I think, if she is really catholic and religious, then she will not be able to get married to you outside church. That's the first problem you have to think about.
cloudberry and Coptic Philosopher, thank you both for your comment. I've asked a catholic friend about that and he said it's allowed for a catholic woman to marry a non-catholic or even non-christian man. But when I dug deep into the issue with him, it seemed to me that he wasn't quite sure. Basically my point was that marriage is a covenant in front of god in the sense that it is binding, but then obviuosly it will only be binding to the one who follows that "god" or rather that particular "manifestation" of god (irrespective of which religion you follow). Anyway, we got into a rather convoluted discussion which left me more confused than clear, and to be honest I think it left him more confused as well!
However, should he decides (and I have to stress that he hasn't yet) to go ahead with this he'll seek advice from a priest, and that's before even talking to her lest the priest throws a spanner in the works so to speak .
Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by * 7ayat *: [QUOTE]Originally posted by stayingput: For more than 20 years this man, my husband, has taken me to church on Sunday (morning in America, evening in Egypt) and sat in the back row while I had my time. He's never complained. He's never been too busy. He's never degraded my religion and, after all this time he's never finished learning about it even though it's not for him. That's okay, though because, to me, the most beautiful part of him is his own faith.
That is the most beautiful thing I have ever heard. What a lucky woman you are.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis: However, should he decides (and I have to stress that he hasn't yet) to go ahead with this he'll seek advice from a priest, and that's before even talking to her lest the priest throws a spanner in the works so to speak . [/QB]
That's a good idea but know you may get different answers. In Egypt, I'm a sinner. In America, I'm not.
We had a civil marriage ceremony, then we had our marriage blessed - twice.
Posts: 758 | From: Here. There. Everywhere. | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by stayingput: In an Islamic marriage, the man is one degree above a woman.
Err ... no. That's an interpretation made by male scholars.
Many women believe that they have to become submissive and obey their husband once they marry a Muslim man, not realizing that the whole "head of the household" theory is a cultural and patriarchal idea and not based on the Qur'an at all.
quote:Originally posted by stayingput: It means he's, well, between me and God and I have to remember and respect that.
In Islam, there is no person between you and God -- no scholar, preacher or husband. You are responsible for yourself and will be judged by your own thoughts and actions. Placing another person between yourself and God is considered shirk.
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis: 1- For ME, the biggest challenges came when I forgot my faith. We have never had a problem with our mixed religion marriage. The religion has been easy. Here's what I mean - in a Christian marriage, the man is the head of the house. In Egyptian culture, the man is the head of the house. In an Islamic marriage, the man is one degree above a woman. In the western culture, husbands and wives are equal. It was the times when I forgot to let my husband be the head of the house (or quietly let him believe he was) that we had our biggest problems.
2 Our children were raised in America and watched their parents practice their faith independently of each other and along side each other. In Egypt, they are Muslim. In America, they were, yes, raised "Islamically" however they are still searching for themselves. Their father and I both know that will come, in time, when God wants it to and it will come, in time, the way God wants it to. For now, we are patient.
As for names, they got English translations of Muslim names for first names and Muslim middle names. That was how we met in the middle on that one.
3- I did "give it up," not that it was a big part of my life pre-husband. It was easy, especially because I decided that was not the hill I wanted to die on.
4 Personally, I dress modestly anyway. Before I met him, before I married him, before, before, before. That's the way I was raised. Lowering the hems of my skirts a few inches wasn't an issue and, today, more than 20 years later, it's still my preference. When I'm in Egypt, I am free to cover my skin. In America, I can't do it as easily (although I do it whenever I can) and I just wear really long skirts/dresses only they don't drag the ground.
It wouldn't bother him at all that you observe your religion by the way, i.e. go to church, etc.
As a Muslim, he had to allow me to practice my faith. He didn't have a choice. But I can say this, early on what he most admired was my faith and, to this day, when he talks about it there is love in his eyes.
For more than 20 years this man, my husband, has taken me to church on Sunday (morning in America, evening in Egypt) and sat in the back row while I had my time. He's never complained. He's never been too busy. He's never degraded my religion and, after all this time he's never finished learning about it even though it's not for him. That's okay, though because, to me, the most beautiful part of him is his own faith.
WOW what an awesome post
Posts: 564 | From: planet earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by * 7ayat *: [QUOTE]Originally posted by stayingput: For more than 20 years this man, my husband, has taken me to church on Sunday (morning in America, evening in Egypt) and sat in the back row while I had my time. He's never complained. He's never been too busy. He's never degraded my religion and, after all this time he's never finished learning about it even though it's not for him. That's okay, though because, to me, the most beautiful part of him is his own faith.
That is the most beautiful thing I have ever heard. What a lucky woman you are.
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) my husband is muslim. When we first met, we discussed these important points and came to the conclusion that our children would be brought up with a knowledge of ALL religions (esp mine and his ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
. Are you a psychic?
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