quote:Originally posted by Coptic Philosopher: I think, if she is really catholic and religious, then she will not be able to get married to you outside church. That's the first problem you have to think about.
cloudberry and Coptic Philosopher, thank you both for your comment. I've asked a catholic friend about that and he said it's allowed for a catholic woman to marry a non-catholic or even non-christian man. But when I dug deep into the issue with him, it seemed to me that he wasn't quite sure. Basically my point was that marriage is a covenant in front of god in the sense that it is binding, but then obviuosly it will only be binding to the one who follows that "god" or rather that particular "manifestation" of god (irrespective of which religion you follow). Anyway, we got into a rather convoluted discussion which left me more confused than clear, and to be honest I think it left him more confused as well!
However, should he decides (and I have to stress that he hasn't yet) to go ahead with this he'll seek advice from a priest, and that's before even talking to her lest the priest throws a spanner in the works so to speak .
It is possible to have a kind of ceremony, which won't be islamic or catholic, but oecumenic. Then a pastor and a imam have to be there, and make their own ceremony. It takes time to find such people, it needs preparation.
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
"Men have one degree above women." [Qu'ran 2: 228]
"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allaah has given the one more than the other and because men support them from their means." [Qu'ran 4:34]
BTW, Dalia, I'm not Muslim.
BTW II: Make no mistake, this marriage hasn't always been easy. It's still not easy. The first year was Hell on earth and the four after that were torture. There were many, MANY times I asked God what I did so bad to deserve it. I can't tell you how many times I looked at him while he was sleeping and wanted to put a pillow over his face. It's taken time, patience, prayer, and a steadfast will to reach this point.
But, overall, I'm not sorry I married him. In fact, I can't imagine what my life would be without him.
BTW III: He loves Christian music (not Jesusee Christian music, though) and blasts it...
Posts: 758 | From: Here. There. Everywhere. | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by stayingput: "Men have one degree above women." [Qu'ran 2: 228]
This part of the verse is referring to the responsibilities of men. It does not say that men have a higher position than women or have to be the head of the household.
quote:Originally posted by stayingput: "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allaah has given the one more than the other and because men support them from their means." [Qu'ran 4:34]
This verse has been debated to death (for example here), so I won't get into that. But it doesn't support the claim about men's supposed superiority either.
quote:Originally posted by stayingput: BTW, Dalia, I'm not Muslim.
I know, you mentioned that. Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by stayingput: BTW III: He loves Christian music (not Jesusee Christian music, though) and blasts it...
BTW IV: I love Gregorian chants, had a CD a long time ago. It's the one without music, but I don't like to blast it as I'm averse to loud noise. That's why I think a wife who's silent would be perfect, lol.
Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by stayingput: BTW III: He loves Christian music (not Jesusee Christian music, though) and blasts it...
BTW IV: I love Gregorian chants, had a CD a long time ago. It's the one without music, but I don't like to blast it as I'm averse to loud noise. That's why I think a wife who's silent would be perfect, lol.
This group "Enigma" became famous years ago when including Gregorian chants as part of their songs chorus:
posted
RM if she is a devout as you say I think you have got some very difficult issues to resolve especially concerning children. I also know from coptic Christian friends in Egypt that they would not consider interfaith marriages.
Q. I am a Muslim and I wish to marry my girl friend, and she wants to get married in her Catholic church. Is this possible, what do I have to do, and what happens?
A. Firstly, the Catholic Church refers to a marriage between a baptised Catholic and a non-baptised person (e.g. a Muslim, etc.), as a "disparity of cult" and as such requires a specific dispensation from the local Catholic Bishop. This would normally be obtained through the Catholic Party's parish priest. This dispensation would normally be granted, if the following conditions were fulfilled:
1. The Catholic party is to declare that he or she is prepared to remove dangers of defecting from the faith, and is to make a sincere promise to do all in his or her own power in order that all children be baptised and brought up in the Catholic Church.
2. The other party is to be informed in good time of these promises to be made by the Catholic party, so that it is certain that he or she is truly aware of the promise and of the obligation of the Catholic party. 3. Both parties are to be instructed about the purposes and essential properties of marriage, which are not to be excluded by either contractant. (Code of Canon Law: Canon1125)
Secondly, what you have to do is: 1. Both visit your girlfriend’s parish priest and explain that you wish to get married. He will, no doubt, question you both on your being free to marry, and any other points he needs clarifying. He will explain that he needs to seek your dispensation from his bishop as mentioned above.
2. You will both be required to attend a marriage preparation course, which will explain the Catholic teaching on marriage, as well as giving practical relationship skills.
3. The priest will, at another time, instruct you both regarding the format of the marriage service.
4. During the marriage service itself you will be formally asked your intentions. Basically, that is, the priest will ask you both in turn:
· "Are you ready freely and without reservation to give yourselves to each other in marriage?” · "Are you ready to love and honour each other as man and wife for the rest of your lives?” · "Are you ready to accept children lovingly from God and bring them up according to the law of Christ and his Church?” · Then you will both be asked to solemnly declare that you know of no lawful impediment to your both being married. · After that you both declare your consent to being married, followed by you both exchanging your marriage vows.
It is very important that you both consider carefully potential problems that your different religions and cultures might present. (Such as religious festivals and seasons, in-laws, family customs, children's education, etc. etc.) To help you in this, it is strongly recommended that you both work through the book:
"LOVE ACROSS LATITUDES A Workbook on Cross-cultural Marriages " by Janet Fraser-Smith. ISBN: 0 904971 05 8 This is available from: C/o AWM UK, P.O. Box 51, LOUGHBOROUGH, Leicestershire. LE11 0ZQ The cost is approximately £10.
This book deals with the problems mentioned, and many more, as it is so important that you deal with these before you get married.
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Penny, thank you ever so much for your advice and your time. BTW, she's not his girlfriend, he's not even in "love" with her. He just likes her, thinks she's a kind and caring person, and the sort of girl he "may" fall in love with, but he's not quite there yet. He also admires her "soul" which is full of what he's always understood to be the true christian love, not the brand of christianity that makes you go kill people in foreign lands, which seems to have overshadowed the other rather spiritual interpretations of christianity.
Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis: he's not even in "love" with her. He just likes her, thinks she's a kind and caring person, and the sort of girl he "may" fall in love with, but he's not quite there yet.
I know this is normal in Egypt, but I will never be able to wrap my head around this. How can you consider marrying someone when you're not even in love with the person?!?
I have close male friends who are kind, caring, handsome, smart, spiritual etc. pp. and I like them very much. But I would never, ever consider marrying one of them.
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
folks, thank you all very much for your input and your time. Given the time you put in this thread I feel I have an obligation to share with you how I've come to feel about the whole issue after reading your posts. I'll talk about him in the third person again (weird as it may sound )
First of all, let me say that he is NOT in love with her. He believes that the older you get the far less likely you are to get "thunderstruck" by love. So, as iterated several times he believes his mind has to be completely (or as much as possible) at ease with the decision.
He came here seeking advice, because he understands that many people here are non-Egyptian women married to Egyptian men, so might be able to shed some light from a woman's perspective.
One of the issues raised by Ministry hit home, and really hard. Whilst he came here genuinely seeking advice, I believe Ministry was absolutely right in pointing that he actually came seeking validation for a decision that he's already taken (in the back of his mind without even realising it). His decision actually was to forsake the whole issue on the grounds that it is too risky, but just needed to convince himself that it is indeed the right decision. I think a lot of the posts here emphasized his fears about the potential conflicts that may pop up in the future, especially with regards to children. He doesn't want to lead a miserable life nor want to have someone else (irrespective of how he feels about them) to be miserable either.
Pleaes do not take that to mean that you've caused him to take the wrong decision or to blame yourself in any way. It is HIS decision at the end of the day, he's mature enough to realise that and to live with the consequences. He believes that the consequences of marrying the wrong person is far more grave than those of not marrying the right person! In this particular context he'd rather err on the side of caution as they say.
Now, recently she's had some changes in her professional life, he's expecting some in his towards the end of the year. So this provides for a milestone to stop and reconsider things at. They live in different cities, so he's not under the pressure of meeting her frequently which might tilt things towards the heart.
Phew, that was a long one. If you're reached that point, you're one heck of patient soul.
Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
One final thought, that's a bit on the abstract side of things. I mean it's about the advice seeking process rather than issue the advice is thougt about. I find it quite intriguing that somebody seeks advice from complete strangers! on issues that are of great importance, potentially life altering, listens to them, believe them, and take their advice on board!!! Not only that he doesn't know them, he doesn't even know their nationallity, religion, or even gender, i.e. knows absolutely nothing about them! Equally intriguing is that they are willing to put their time and effort in advising him or her (I'm not talking about this thread now, but all similar ones where the decisions considered are serious ones). Hmmm, something for the psychologist/sociologist/anthropologist/whateverologist amongst you to study and for the rest of us to ponder. Welcome to Cyberia!!!
Folks, thanks again for everything and may you all be blessed with happiness and "clear decisions" in your lives Posts: 444 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Well, I think most of the time the 'advices' are not taken anyway. Why are people asking advice to strangers and why do they believe that what has been adviced, is true? Maybe because they cannot find a suitable advisor in their circle of family and friends, maybe it is because they are embaressed by asking people they know, maybe they are na-ive, and also maybe their questions are not real either! There is one major thing we all have in common, in one way or another, we are connected to something or someone Egyptian. In the marriage -issues here, I want to add something funny. I know a man here who is married with a lady from a South American developing country. His story is very much like the stories that have been told here, including the religion section. It's another religion but also these people are taking their religion much more seriously, search for answer in holy books, get answers by number 5.678 chapter 123 from the book ABC etc. just as we can see the hadits, soera's and quoran verses here. Exactly the same. I sometimes wonder why I spend so much time on it myself. Partly because I like to write, but also partly out of a strange urge to collect as much knowledge as possible. It's a strange fascination.
Wish you luck with your choices, and in the coming carreer-switch...
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I know this is normal in Egypt, but I will never be able to wrap my head around this. How can you consider marrying someone when you're not even in love with the person?!? [/QB][/QUOTE]
Me neither. I married my husband because I was in love with him and after three years and a half of marriage, I can't imagine how it would be like without love. Love is very very important.
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis: Hi folks! Someone is seeking advice regarding mixed faith (and culture) marriage. He's an Eygptian muslim gentleman. He wouldn't consider himself particularly religous, but like many men of his generation and social background, he observes the "five pillars" (not hajj though) and avoids the so called "majors".
She's an English Catholic lady who's quite religous. She goes to church every Sunday, which is quite unusual in England as the English don't really do religion as some of you would know, certainly not in the way Americans do. Of course there are always exceptions but I believe this is a general trait of the English, at least in my experience. At some point in the past she had even considered going into a monestary (I suppose nunnery would be more technically correct). No she's not emotionally disturbed or anything of that sort that people tend to associate with women who "answer the call"
Now before you get the wrong idea, they're both professionals, well educated and of suitable age (he's a few years older than her). He currently resides in the UK but may decide at some point in the future to go back to Egypt.
He met her through a mutual friend, he likes her and thinks she's a nice and kind girl. However, he's only intersted in marriage and believes that following one's heart is not a good enough reason for marriage, you have to follow your head as well.
So, after such a long introduction, here's what he's seeking advice on from those in a mixed faith/culture marriage, in particular where the man is Egyptian moslem and the lady is christian foreigner.
1- What would you consider to be the greatest challenge in your marriage, and how did this change with time. i.e. what is most challenging today may take the back seat tomorrow and something else becomes more so. Of course I mean challenge in the cultural sense, not financial or professional, ...etc.
2- How do you feel about bringing up your children. Like many muslim men, he'd like his children to be muslim, even with muslim names. How do you feel about that (did your view change before marriage and after getting married?).
3- She drinks socially, but he NEVER allows alcohol in his household. Is this something you would be willing to give up, and how dificult is it?
4- Again, like many Egyptian men of similar background, he wouldn't like his wife to show too much flesh (none to be honest!), so how do you feel about that. Would it make you feel controlled, or would you feel that you're giving up something to please him?
It wouldn't bother him at all that you observe your religion by the way, i.e. go to church, etc.
I have to stress that he's currently in the considering phase not the deciding one. Your advice will help him make the decision. It would be nice to get the views of both sides, the man and the woman, in particular English women who I understand there are lot of whom around here. Any info other than what's mentioned above would be greatly appreciated. I have numbered my points so you can just reply by mentioning the number rather than repeating the text.
Thanks for taking the time to read this, and my apologies for it being so long. All replies and advice will be highly appreciated and taken with respect.
All the best and may whoever is married or in a serious relationship have a long and happy one. God bless
do not think this marriage is going to succeed as the woman looks so religious.
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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I know this is normal in Egypt, but I will never be able to wrap my head around this. How can you consider marrying someone when you're not even in love with the person?!?
Me neither. I married my husband because I was in love with him and after three years and a half of marriage, I can't imagine how it would be like without love. Love is very very important. [/QB][/QUOTE]
A female Moroccan filmmaker made a television-documentary about the subject love in a marriage within their culture. She interviewed a lot of young people and they all agreed that the subject 'love' was not a needed part in the eyes of their parents. It also wasn't part of their raising-up, because 'love' was connected to 'sex', and they didn't talk about that. More important values were 'a good person from a good family' with a 'respectable job' and therefore a 'high income' and no 'past'.... She said in fact this was strange because'the subjects 'love' and 'sex' in a marriage were even part of the Quoran. For what I've seen from it, the subjects are really different valued in the western and the eastern culture. Even when people married because of 'love', most of the time ( as far as I expierenced ) were the romantic feelings of the wife, and the husband had more rational reasons. Of course I am not in the circumstances to have proper research results, but this is only my personal impression.
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
hello, i am in mixed marriage,until 3 years of marriage when i converted. i am having a lot of problems due to mixed faith. he an egyptian.
we were married in a church and mosque. the priest that married us dd give one bit of advice, it will not be religion that destroys you, it will be culture.
this is true, people no matter how religious mix culture into religion,
as a muslim you are allowed to marry a lday of the book. a chrisitan is a lady of the book.
as long as you accept your partner for who she is and not try to change her, as long as you have trust and discuss things like issues around future kids. a child learns from the mother and if she does not pray then how will kids learn,
take these into consideration, but please do no treat her bad, i have lost faith in egyptian men,get the ground rules before it gets messy
i was not a prac christian and changed yeras later, my husband can not accept my past
Posts: 223 | From: london | Registered: Jul 2009
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posted
If he didn't accept her past, he shouldn't have married her???? Or maybe he didn't know her past???? Or her past became more important as it was during the time they married???? Whatever, a whole lot of people are having wrong idea's about religion in combination with their lifes. Most of us don't live their life completely with their religion in the background, so sometimes they are doing things that don't accord to their religion. Is that bad? I think it's human. Anyway, as soon as there is a partner that wants to declare everything by religion and you don't, there is a problem... Sometimes we do things while we know we shouldn't... Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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he knew my past. when i met him i drank etc, i converted years later, but for some reason he can not accept the past.
my moto is what is in the past remains the past, everyones past makes them who they are. embarasment of past to me means you ashamed of who you are
Posts: 223 | From: london | Registered: Jul 2009
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posted
What do you mean with 'not accept'? Does he want to divorce you because of the past? Is he discussing your past too much? Does he place you on a lower scale because of that past?
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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My opinion of this has changed over the past few years.
I think it all boils down to an individuals understanding of their religion, their respect for others overall and their adaptability and tolerance.
No two muslims will think the same about everything, and possibly not about some of the major things. The same can be said about 2 Christians obviously.
If a person believes they are right and everyone else is wrong, or if they show signs of intollerance or lack of understanding then it will never work, and that comes boths ways.
If people are genuinely interested in each others culture and religion and respect it then it can work, with both parties making small adjustments and discussing big matters.
I dont think its easy to find that, but that seems to be the key to those relationships that work.
Caitlin: Your past was before you converted, therefore it is wiped clean. He needs to sort out this issue himself, because if God can wipe it clean then who is he to bring it back up?
Maybe you both need to talk to someone impartial to find out why he cant let it go?
-------------------- IMO Posts: 431 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2008
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Caitlin: Your past was before you converted, therefore it is wiped clean. He needs to sort out this issue himself, because if God can wipe it clean then who is he to bring it back up?
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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Hmmm, so what I need to do, go on a sin binge, then convert. There must be thousands of religions to convert too, so I'm covered after my naughty actions Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
In the Middle-ages there was something similar in catholicism. The people who went to a crusade, received a written statement that all their sins were washed out, because of that participation in a crusade. Later they even were for sale. Untill now, there are certain actions; like confessing to a preacher or a last salvation, that should wipe people clean. Of course that's nonsence. I even can imagine that it is 'invented' because of so many people with a loaded mind. But still it is nonsence. What a person has done in his/her life, stays with him/her for the rest of his/her life. Nothing can wipe out former events.
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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if he wanted a perfect muslim wife, why go looking in a bar
after 3 years married convert. sins etc wipe clean. a few years things got bad, me having kids etc and not having time for my self, we start arguing etc
once we married he stopped drinking etc and practised but few years ago started going to pakistan mosque and he went extreme
if i watch eastenders, it is haram, he moans i never forget my roots. If I speak to my neighbour who is male we end up fighting, i am a flussie etc. it is a neighbour and what harm is it doing.
he is mixing with a lot of people from doha, and it is very secluded across their. men and woman have to mix in todays society, he even moaned at our little girls when they were playing with out neighbours 4 year old son, what harm can that do at that age. he moaned when my little girl was wearing shorts and t-shirt etc, he calle dher kelpa, i later find out it means dog.
he was fun when we married, now he is a pain and it is good to practise islam but you have to have a life at same time, he jsut scares people.
MY ANSWER IS YOUR PAST IS WHAT MADE YOU AND IF YOU ASHAMED OF YOUR PAST, YOU DO NOT ACCEPT YOURSELF. IT MaAKES YOU WHO YOU ARE TODAY.
He is such a good muslim boy, or so he thinks, does he not realise that god made us who we are and in not accepting inperfections of each other then we are doubting god, that is my view anyway.
Posts: 223 | From: london | Registered: Jul 2009
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