posted
Ok, so this is what I will do. I will apologize to Dalia and Subzero for any of the offending remarks I made towards them. I don’t think there is anything wrong if someone sits back and reflects and thinks about what they said and if they offended someone or not and then apologize. And I believe that if I insulted someone publicly then I will apologize publicly.
So, Subzero, I am sorry I ranted at you both here and on the other thread. I liked you and your partner when I met you and despite the fact that I disagree with you on many issues, I do respect your opinion. So sorry for my rants.
Dalia, I am also sorry for being rude to you on this thread. I am not someone who looks down on poor people at all. Anyone, who knows me knows that I hate the class discrimination in Egypt. It is one of the reasons I chose my career path and it was one of the reasons that I married my husband, despite my family’s objections that he is from “shobra.” But the comments towards Tibe, quite frankly stemmed from frustration with someone who I feel is out to provoke. I was trying to hit back. The same with the comments about the Germans. I’ve been to Germany twice and loved it. I am sorry I made these dumb remarks about the Germans, but to be quite honest I have run out of ways to try and explain to people on ES how hurtful their remarks are towards me and other Egyptians. If you argue, you get slammed, if you insult it blows up, if you turn the table around, you look like you are close minded. Tayeb what can I do? Some of the stuff that is said on this forum about Egypt and Egyptians is disgusting. If anything, I always wonder why don’t more Egyptians to speak up. A couple of months ago, I got into another argument about Egypt, and several Egyptians started sending PMs, telling me how happy they are because I am standing up to the abuse. If these people are not worried about being bullied or being ganged up on, like often happens on this forum when an Egyptian objects to something, then why are they sending me PMs, why are they not speaking up publicly?
Tibe, I have no apology for you. You are a nasty piece of work. Your whole existence on this forum is based on provoking and insulting. It boggles my mind that people here take your side, but one day everyone will know how awful you are. I feel bad for your husband, Gabr. I don’t even want to imagine what he feels like, with your constant insults towards Egypt, especially its soccer, something that Egyptian men are crazy about. Did you walk around the house after the Italy win and taunt him? I wouldn’t be surprised.
In the end, I wish people on this forum would be a bit more sensitive towards the feelings of some of the Egyptians here. And no we are not “sensitive souls.” In fact, most of the Egyptians I met on ES are intelligent, educated and well travelled. But an argument is something and an insult is another. I criticize Egypt on ES all the time. It was even me, who raised the issue of the treatment of non-veiled women in the country, and the attaba rape on this thread.
I think it is normal to be angry when your country is insulted. I reckon I would be ripped apart, if I said some of the awful things said here about the Egyptians to the Australians. Would an Aussie woman be ok if I said that Australian women have dirty feet and are overweight and don’t like sex, which is probably why their men don’t want them? Some of the stuff that was said on ES about the Egyptians? I don’t think so. Hell, they even get defensive when I complain that Sydney’s weather is not nice!!!
But whatever. Someone on this forum, once said that Egypt is a country that produces extreme reactions to people. You either love it or hate, but you are never neutral. Maybe that’s why there are so many tempers flaring on this forum.
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by * 7ayat *: Ok, so this is what I will do. I will apologize to Dalia and Subzero for any of the offending remarks I made towards them. I don’t think there is anything wrong if someone sits back and reflects and thinks about what they said and if they offended someone or not and then apologize. And I believe that if I insulted someone publicly then I will apologize publicly.
So, Subzero, I am sorry I ranted at you both here and on the other thread. I liked you and your partner when I met you and despite the fact that I disagree with you on many issues, I do respect your opinion. So sorry for my rants.
Dalia, I am also sorry for being rude to you on this thread. I am not someone who looks down on poor people at all. Anyone, who knows me knows that I hate the class discrimination in Egypt. It is one of the reasons I chose my career path and it was one of the reasons that I married my husband, despite my family’s objections that he is from “shobra.” But the comments towards Tibe, quite frankly stemmed from frustration with someone who I feel is out to provoke. I was trying to hit back. The same with the comments about the Germans. I’ve been to Germany twice and loved it. I am sorry I made these dumb remarks about the Germans, but to be quite honest I have run out of ways to try and explain to people on ES how hurtful their remarks are towards me and other Egyptians. If you argue, you get slammed, if you insult it blows up, if you turn the table around, you look like you are close minded. Tayeb what can I do? Some of the stuff that is said on this forum about Egypt and Egyptians is disgusting. If anything, I always wonder why don’t more Egyptians to speak up. A couple of months ago, I got into another argument about Egypt, and several Egyptians started sending PMs, telling me how happy they are because I am standing up to the abuse. If these people are not worried about being bullied or being ganged up on, like often happens on this forum when an Egyptian objects to something, then why are they sending me PMs, why are they not speaking up publicly?
Tibe, I have no apology for you. You are a nasty piece of work. Your whole existence on this forum is based on provoking and insulting. It boggles my mind that people here take your side, but one day everyone will know how awful you are. I feel bad for your husband, Gabr. I don’t even want to imagine what he feels like, with your constant insults towards Egypt, especially its soccer, something that Egyptian men are crazy about. Did you walk around the house after the Italy win and taunt him? I wouldn’t be surprised.
In the end, I wish people on this forum would be a bit more sensitive towards the feelings of some of the Egyptians here. And no we are not “sensitive souls.” In fact, most of the Egyptians I met on ES are intelligent, educated and well travelled. But an argument is something and an insult is another. I criticize Egypt on ES all the time. It was even me, who raised the issue of the treatment of non-veiled women in the country, and the attaba rape on this thread.
I think it is normal to be angry when your country is insulted. I reckon I would be ripped apart, if I said some of the awful things said here about the Egyptians to the Australians. Would an Aussie woman be ok if I said that Australian women have dirty feet and are overweight and don’t like sex, which is probably why their men don’t want them? Some of the stuff that was said on ES about the Egyptians? I don’t think so. Hell, they even get defensive when I complain that Sydney’s weather is not nice!!!
But whatever. Someone on this forum, once said that Egypt is a country that produces extreme reactions to people. You either love it or hate, but you are never neutral. Maybe that’s why there are so many tempers flaring on this forum.
Im in tears Havent cried so much since when Michael Jackson died
Just teased Gabr a bit after the match. We had a disgussion about why egyptian football scks. He agreed with me that the players lack morale. I can critize all i wan but not Abu Treka - that means signing my death sentence. Dont have to anyway - Abu Treka is very good.
BUT I SSSSUUUURRRREEEE TEEEEEAAAASSSSEEED HIM A LOT - when Denmark beat your asses 2 in Handball. Ohhhh boy did i have a blast of a party for several days Just like he would have if Egypt had won - as we are adults with a sense of humor. Y should try it one day.
Posts: 1325 | From: For tooti http://www.csa.gov.uk/ | Registered: May 2009
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posted
You still don't have a clue, 7ayat. Even if you should make the most degrading remarks about a country, it still isn't personal! But calling names as happened here IS personal and insulting. I don't know if this is a real culture difference, but in general you can say whatever you want to an European, regarding his country, the prime-minister, the national team, their men and their women, it does not matter at all, because it isn't personally. So, you can name our country stupid, the people dirty, and the queen a slut, we won't feel attacked. But we DO feel attacked/insulted when you call me a loser, or a cow, or a pig. I can imagine that people get angry when their national team has been called crab, but I cannot imagine this would be reason for being called words like this. Being angry = no the same as being insulting. It's a matter of norms and values.
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Questionmarks: You still don't have a clue, 7ayat. Even if you should make the most degrading remarks about a country, it still isn't personal! But calling names as happened here IS personal and insulting. I don't know if this is a real culture difference, but in general you can say whatever you want to an European, regarding his country, the prime-minister, the national team, their men and their women, it does not matter at all, because it isn't personally. So, you can name our country stupid, the people dirty, and the queen a slut, we won't feel attacked. But we DO feel attacked/insulted when you call me a loser, or a cow, or a pig. I can imagine that people get angry when their national team has been called crab, but I cannot imagine this would be reason for being called words like this. Being angry = no the same as being insulting. It's a matter of norms and values.
Your so right - but im afraid your pissing against the wind.
Posts: 1325 | From: For tooti http://www.csa.gov.uk/ | Registered: May 2009
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But whatever. Someone on this forum, once said that Egypt is a country that produces extreme reactions to people. You either love it or hate, but you are never neutral. Maybe that’s why there are so many tempers flaring on this forum.
Blimey that took ages to Edit ! Anyway here is my point * 7ayat * i'm nuetral i neither love nor hate Egypt it's just a place to go on vacation and it's hot, the fact i have met some lovely interesting people is neither here nor there. Posts: 3945 | From: ' Res Contr ' Amor non es guirens, lai on sos poders s'atura | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
You still don't have a clue, 7ayat. Even if you should make the most degrading remarks about a country, it still isn't personal! But calling names as happened here IS personal and insulting. I don't know if this is a real culture difference, but in general you can say whatever you want to an European, regarding his country, the prime-minister, the national team, their men and their women, it does not matter at all, because it isn't personally. So, you can name our country stupid, the people dirty, and the queen a slut, we won't feel attacked. But we DO feel attacked/insulted when you call me a loser, or a cow, or a pig. I can imagine that people get angry when their national team has been called crab, but I cannot imagine this would be reason for being called words like this. Being angry = no the same as being insulting. It's a matter of norms and values.
Hello Questionmarks
I understand that you may feel insulted by the calling names you and others members have received, but I would like to say that 7ayat is not what you may think she is. I have also been upset many times by her comments about “western people” however I had many occasions too, in the past, to chat with her, and I know for sure that she is totally against class discrimination, and that she is not the kind of person who look at poor people down , to the contrary, many times on this board, she took defense of Egyptians who come from lowest class as her, like taxi drivers, and many of others people who are considered to be the “low class society” by many others middle class Egyptians.
In regards to her career, even though I feel that her personal view about the western world is too “general” I have read many of her articles and have found her to be a brilliant journalist, who talks about very intersecting subjects such as Darfur refugees in Egypt from the article “to be alive”. She addressed this subject with a lot of lucidity, and courage, and I invite you to read it if you have time.
Now I m not trying to take her side , but I think it was important to say what I have just said about her, and hope that in the future, we will all be able to debate subjects without insulting each others.
Posts: 1182 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by *Souri*: You still don't have a clue, 7ayat. Even if you should make the most degrading remarks about a country, it still isn't personal! But calling names as happened here IS personal and insulting. I don't know if this is a real culture difference, but in general you can say whatever you want to an European, regarding his country, the prime-minister, the national team, their men and their women, it does not matter at all, because it isn't personally. So, you can name our country stupid, the people dirty, and the queen a slut, we won't feel attacked. But we DO feel attacked/insulted when you call me a loser, or a cow, or a pig. I can imagine that people get angry when their national team has been called crab, but I cannot imagine this would be reason for being called words like this. Being angry = no the same as being insulting. It's a matter of norms and values.
Hello Questionmarks
I understand that you may feel insulted by the calling names you and others members have received, but I would like to say that 7ayat is not what you may think she is. I have also been upset many times by her comments about “western people” however I had many occasions too, in the past, to chat with her, and I know for sure that she is totally against class discrimination, and that she is not the kind of person who look at poor people down , to the contrary, many times on this board, she took defense of Egyptians who come from lowest class as her, like taxi drivers, and many of others people who are considered to be the “low class society” by many others middle class Egyptians.
In regards to her career, even though I feel that her personal view about the western world is too “general” I have read many of her articles and have found her to be a brilliant journalist, who talks about very intersecting subjects such as Darfur refugees in Egypt from the article “to be alive”. She addressed this subject with a lot of lucidity, and courage, and I invite you to read it if you have time.
Now I m not trying to take her side , but I think it was important to say what I have just said about her, and hope that in the future, we will all be able to debate subjects without insulting each others.
No one has only good or bad sides. I dont doubt that 7ayat has some very good side but inhere she is intolerant, extremely sensitive and childish.
Posts: 1325 | From: For tooti http://www.csa.gov.uk/ | Registered: May 2009
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posted
Sure, I hope that too! I don't think 7ayat called me bad names, think that was SLM. My problem with her attitude regarding this subject(s) is that she is chooses party for somebody who is behaving in a very bad way. I don't know the backlaying reason behind that attitude, probably because it is an Egyptian. We all have a free choice in who to support and who not to support. If nationality is a more important criterion as civilisation, then we are in a inclined area.
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Kalila : ): Blimey that took ages to Edit ! Anyway here is my point * 7ayat * i'm nuetral i neither love nor hate Egypt it's just a place to go on vacation and it's hot, the fact i have met some lovely interesting people is neither here nor there.
she means ME Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Thank you for your heartfelt apology. There was a lot of nonsense that has appeared on this board over the last few days and frankly I find it tedious and have started to ask myself why the hell did I come back to this board.
I am looking for a forum to discuss real issues affecting my country. I am an Egyptian and I should add a proud one. I believe anyone of any nationality or religion will feel hurt when someone appears to attack their country or religion but we must all believe that we are trying to have as open and honest a discussion as possible. Of course I don't expect you to agree on any of my opinions, as I don't agree on some of yours as well, but that shouldn't spoil any of our cases.
I think we should all try to be less sensitive i.e. don't take everything so personally. If we as Egyptians want to give Egypt a positive view we need to intelligently discuss issues and be patient with many who have had either bad experiences in Egypt or with Egyptians - remember every nation , no matter what the population, is made up of individuals.
I'm not in a position to say that I'm more Egyptian than you are, we might be different in our approaches. I tend to be more lenient and would allow people to vent out their frustratiing experiences in my country because I'm a huge believer in freedom of speech, being defensive and apologetic and hushing every criticism of my country will not make the negative ideas magically disappear, nor would it help promote my country's image. What would help in my opinion, is being more understanding to such bad experiences, through helping and guiding, through showing a tolerant example and I assure you it works in promoting a much better image.
One word is saved for last; I applaud you for having the decency to acknowledge what you've done wrong and I applaud you and respect you much more for it. If I had crossed the line ever in the way I addressed you before, I apologize as well.
Its water under the bridge, sheila.
Posts: 657 | From: Cairo | Registered: Nov 2005
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I have never heard of an Egyptian called Sheila before though
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Sheila: It is water under the bridge - the trouble is we do not live on the bridge but in the river of life with its many twists and turns.
Posts: 3773 | From: unfinished thought | Registered: Nov 2008
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posted
Originally posted by Ayisha: ahh thats better guys
Chucks...and we were just starting to have fun ..Bring in Bettyboo then. Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
tayeb..bas konna 3awzeen shwayet action min betoo3 zaman. Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Kalila : ): Blimey that took ages to Edit ! Anyway here is my point * 7ayat * i'm nuetral i neither love nor hate Egypt it's just a place to go on vacation and it's hot, the fact i have met some lovely interesting people is neither here nor there.
she means ME
Hahahaha Posts: 3945 | From: ' Res Contr ' Amor non es guirens, lai on sos poders s'atura | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: ahh thats better guys
I have never heard of an Egyptian called Sheila before though
7ayat lives in Australia so she is called Sheila, her husband is called Bruce
There is an Australian reality TV show called desperately seeking Sheila...where Bruces compete to find their Sheilas Posts: 500 | From: United Arab Emirates | Registered: Jul 2008
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quote:Originally posted by young at heart: Yes you love helping the aged, don't you Kalila?
Well i do have a saints name dont i Hon Posts: 3945 | From: ' Res Contr ' Amor non es guirens, lai on sos poders s'atura | Registered: Dec 2007
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-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Sub-zero: Thank you for your heartfelt apology. There was a lot of nonsense that has appeared on this board over the last few days and frankly I find it tedious and have started to ask myself why the hell did I come back to this board.
I am looking for a forum to discuss real issues affecting my country. I am an Egyptian and I should add a proud one. I believe anyone of any nationality or religion will feel hurt when someone appears to attack their country or religion but we must all believe that we are trying to have as open and honest a discussion as possible. Of course I don't expect you to agree on any of my opinions, as I don't agree on some of yours as well, but that shouldn't spoil any of our cases.
I think we should all try to be less sensitive i.e. don't take everything so personally. If we as Egyptians want to give Egypt a positive view we need to intelligently discuss issues and be patient with many who have had either bad experiences in Egypt or with Egyptians - remember every nation , no matter what the population, is made up of individuals.
I'm not in a position to say that I'm more Egyptian than you are, we might be different in our approaches. I tend to be more lenient and would allow people to vent out their frustratiing experiences in my country because I'm a huge believer in freedom of speech, being defensive and apologetic and hushing every criticism of my country will not make the negative ideas magically disappear, nor would it help promote my country's image. What would help in my opinion, is being more understanding to such bad experiences, through helping and guiding, through showing a tolerant example and I assure you it works in promoting a much better image.
One word is saved for last; I applaud you for having the decency to acknowledge what you've done wrong and I applaud you and respect you much more for it. If I had crossed the line ever in the way I addressed you before, I apologize as well.
Its water under the bridge, sheila.
Thanks Sub. I love Egypt too and I enjoy some of the interesting insights that people have. And I enjoy ES, because people have the freedom to express their opinions without any moderation etc and at least we get to know what everyone things. But for me, sometimes I feel that posts some posts about Egypt by some non-Egyptians are not only hurtful but are "meant" to be hurtful if you know what I mean Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Sub-zero: Thank you for your heartfelt apology. There was a lot of nonsense that has appeared on this board over the last few days and frankly I find it tedious and have started to ask myself why the hell did I come back to this board.
I am looking for a forum to discuss real issues affecting my country. I am an Egyptian and I should add a proud one. I believe anyone of any nationality or religion will feel hurt when someone appears to attack their country or religion but we must all believe that we are trying to have as open and honest a discussion as possible. Of course I don't expect you to agree on any of my opinions, as I don't agree on some of yours as well, but that shouldn't spoil any of our cases.
I think we should all try to be less sensitive i.e. don't take everything so personally. If we as Egyptians want to give Egypt a positive view we need to intelligently discuss issues and be patient with many who have had either bad experiences in Egypt or with Egyptians - remember every nation , no matter what the population, is made up of individuals.
I'm not in a position to say that I'm more Egyptian than you are, we might be different in our approaches. I tend to be more lenient and would allow people to vent out their frustratiing experiences in my country because I'm a huge believer in freedom of speech, being defensive and apologetic and hushing every criticism of my country will not make the negative ideas magically disappear, nor would it help promote my country's image. What would help in my opinion, is being more understanding to such bad experiences, through helping and guiding, through showing a tolerant example and I assure you it works in promoting a much better image.
One word is saved for last; I applaud you for having the decency to acknowledge what you've done wrong and I applaud you and respect you much more for it. If I had crossed the line ever in the way I addressed you before, I apologize as well.
Its water under the bridge, sheila.
Thanks Sub. I love Egypt too and I enjoy some of the interesting insights that people have. And I enjoy ES, because people have the freedom to express their opinions without any moderation etc and at least we get to know what everyone things. But for me, sometimes I feel that posts some posts about Egypt by some non-Egyptians are not only hurtful but are "meant" to be hurtful if you know what I mean
Maybe you have to realise that there are women who have been damaged, one way or another. personal expierences are 'colouring' an opinion. And beceause the expierences often are out of love-relationships, the marks are even deeper. When you have been in a situation that has been hurtful to you, you will have another kind of opinion as the ones who were in a similar situation without being hurted. And because western people in common are more direct in their way to communicate, it may sound more hard to you as it should do to other westerners. When an Egyptian is saying something to you, you will be able to understand him, even when he is not using the exact words to describe what he feels. You will understand, because you are Egyptian. The same counts for Western people. Tibe is danish, and they don't differ that much from Dutch people, so I understand what she means, and I can tell you that she didn't mean anything wrong with her remarks about the national team. Later the situation escalated because of the personal insults made by SLM. You were on his side, probably because you understood him more as we did, but in our culture it is very wrong to support somebody who misbehaves, even when he has the same nationality. In our culture we think that misbehaviour is misbehaviour, no matter who. Even when it should be your/our mother!
But, let's end it. We have been fighting long enough...Peace.
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Sub-zero: Thank you for your heartfelt apology. There was a lot of nonsense that has appeared on this board over the last few days and frankly I find it tedious and have started to ask myself why the hell did I come back to this board.
I am looking for a forum to discuss real issues affecting my country. I am an Egyptian and I should add a proud one. I believe anyone of any nationality or religion will feel hurt when someone appears to attack their country or religion but we must all believe that we are trying to have as open and honest a discussion as possible. Of course I don't expect you to agree on any of my opinions, as I don't agree on some of yours as well, but that shouldn't spoil any of our cases.
I think we should all try to be less sensitive i.e. don't take everything so personally. If we as Egyptians want to give Egypt a positive view we need to intelligently discuss issues and be patient with many who have had either bad experiences in Egypt or with Egyptians - remember every nation , no matter what the population, is made up of individuals.
I'm not in a position to say that I'm more Egyptian than you are, we might be different in our approaches. I tend to be more lenient and would allow people to vent out their frustratiing experiences in my country because I'm a huge believer in freedom of speech, being defensive and apologetic and hushing every criticism of my country will not make the negative ideas magically disappear, nor would it help promote my country's image. What would help in my opinion, is being more understanding to such bad experiences, through helping and guiding, through showing a tolerant example and I assure you it works in promoting a much better image.
One word is saved for last; I applaud you for having the decency to acknowledge what you've done wrong and I applaud you and respect you much more for it. If I had crossed the line ever in the way I addressed you before, I apologize as well.
Its water under the bridge, sheila.
Thanks Sub. I love Egypt too and I enjoy some of the interesting insights that people have. And I enjoy ES, because people have the freedom to express their opinions without any moderation etc and at least we get to know what everyone things. But for me, sometimes I feel that posts some posts about Egypt by some non-Egyptians are not only hurtful but are "meant" to be hurtful if you know what I mean
Maybe you have to realise that there are women who have been damaged, one way or another. personal expierences are 'colouring' an opinion. And beceause the expierences often are out of love-relationships, the marks are even deeper. When you have been in a situation that has been hurtful to you, you will have another kind of opinion as the ones who were in a similar situation without being hurted. And because western people in common are more direct in their way to communicate, it may sound more hard to you as it should do to other westerners. When an Egyptian is saying something to you, you will be able to understand him, even when he is not using the exact words to describe what he feels. You will understand, because you are Egyptian. The same counts for Western people. Tibe is danish, and they don't differ that much from Dutch people, so I understand what she means, and I can tell you that she didn't mean anything wrong with her remarks about the national team. Later the situation escalated because of the personal insults made by SLM. You were on his side, probably because you understood him more as we did, but in our culture it is very wrong to support somebody who misbehaves, even when he has the same nationality. In our culture we think that misbehaviour is misbehaviour, no matter who. Even when it should be your/our mother!
But, let's end it. We have been fighting long enough...Peace.
Agree 110% with every word in this post.
Posts: 1325 | From: For tooti http://www.csa.gov.uk/ | Registered: May 2009
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quote:Originally posted by * 7ayat *: Ok, so this is what I will do. I will apologize to Dalia and Subzero for any of the offending remarks I made towards them. I don’t think there is anything wrong if someone sits back and reflects and thinks about what they said and if they offended someone or not and then apologize. And I believe that if I insulted someone publicly then I will apologize publicly.
Thank you, Hayat, I appreciate this and your courage to publicly admit you've overreacted. Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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Last Wednesday, July 1st, Egyptian woman Marwa (el-)Sherbini was stabbed to death in a German court by German Russian Alex W. Alex W. was in court after Sherbini sued him for insulting her. In August 2008, W's child was swinging on a swing. Sherbini asked W. if her child could use the swing and he turned on her, calling her "Islamist", "terrorist" and "bitch". She sued him. W. stabbed Sherbini when she came to court to testify against him.
The incident is causing a lot of anger in Egypt, where people are taking to the streets in protest.
There's a lot of stories going on about this incident, and so I'll try to put things straight.
1. The issue of press coverage (or lack thereof) is drawing a lot of attention and accusations. German news media reported about this story extensively already on Thursday. However, they didn't mention the (full) name of the Egyptian woman who was killed, just as the attacker is only named Alex W. The first English language news therefore used the Egyptian press for this information.
My experience is that news items tend to 'percolate' from local news through to the worldwide mass media. In many cases I rush to translate a story, but within a few days it appears all over the English language news. I reported about this story Saturday, based on an Expatica news report. Since every news item about it now also mentions the accusations about the media not reporting it, it's hard to gauge how much this would have drawn attention otherwise.
2. Though Marwa is now called the "hijab martyr" in Egypt, her attacker never said anything about the hijab. She was attacked for being Muslim.
3. Marwa sued Alex for insulting her, not for physically attacking her.
4. Her husband, who rushed to intervene, was shot by a security guard. There are accusations that the guard just assumed the non-German was the attacker, however the incident is still being investigated. It is as likely that the guard, who was trying to stop a murderer, just missed.
5. As far as I know, the attacker is being charged with murder, and not, as some have reported 'manslaughter'.
6. This is the second time this year that a murder took place in a German court.
7. So far this year, one hijab-wearing Muslim girl was killed in Germany for not being Muslim enough. Another 20-year old was killed for not being a virgin. This follows up on dozens of cases in the past few years were Muslim women were killed by their Muslim family for not being Muslim enough. As far as I know Sherbini's case is the first one in Germany (possibly in Europe), where a woman is killed for being Muslim.
8. The murderer, Alex W., came to Germany from Russia in 2006. He's as German as Sherbini.
9. Alex W. did not belong to any racist groups.
10. Given the demonstrations against Germans in Egypt, maybe the German embassy should put out an advisory?
11. Why are Sherbini's family calling for revenge against a man being held by the German authorities?
Sherbini's family have called for revenge following the deadly knife attack on Wednesday.
"If she was just stabbed once, I would have said this is a mad man, but the number of times she and her husband were stabbed reflects the extent of racism this man had in him," Tarek Sherbini, the victim's brother, said.
"Here in Egypt, we believe in 'an eye for an eye'. The least we expect is the death penalty for the murderer." [ed: Germany does not have the death penalty]
"We will avenge her killing," her brother Tarek el-Sherbini told The Associated Press by telephone from the mosque where prayers were being recited in front of his sister's coffin. "In the West, they don't recognize us. There is racism."
12. While Egyptians are upset at one murder in Germany, they might want to remember that German tourists have been attacked, injured, killed and abducted in Egypt, as recently as this year.
posted
I was really shocked when I found out that the Egyptians are calling her the "higab martyr." I am sick of the Egyptian obsession with the veil. It's like it morphed and became an entity of its own, even one seperate from Islam itself. It's like an identity thing.
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:So where is the public outrage at this incident? Where are the outcries about the media, the religious authorities, society creating a breeding ground for the kind of attitude that leads to a crime like this? How come no suspicions are thrown around about the public standing by and watching him slaughter his wife? Why the double standards? [Confused]
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: Germany: Facts on 'hijab martyr'
Last Wednesday, July 1st, Egyptian woman Marwa (el-)Sherbini was stabbed to death in a German court by German Russian Alex W. Alex W. was in court after Sherbini sued him for insulting her. In August 2008, W's child was swinging on a swing. Sherbini asked W. if her child could use the swing and he turned on her, calling her "Islamist", "terrorist" and "bitch". She sued him. W. stabbed Sherbini when she came to court to testify against him.
The incident is causing a lot of anger in Egypt, where people are taking to the streets in protest.
There's a lot of stories going on about this incident, and so I'll try to put things straight.
1. The issue of press coverage (or lack thereof) is drawing a lot of attention and accusations. German news media reported about this story extensively already on Thursday. However, they didn't mention the (full) name of the Egyptian woman who was killed, just as the attacker is only named Alex W. The first English language news therefore used the Egyptian press for this information.
My experience is that news items tend to 'percolate' from local news through to the worldwide mass media. In many cases I rush to translate a story, but within a few days it appears all over the English language news. I reported about this story Saturday, based on an Expatica news report. Since every news item about it now also mentions the accusations about the media not reporting it, it's hard to gauge how much this would have drawn attention otherwise.
2. Though Marwa is now called the "hijab martyr" in Egypt, her attacker never said anything about the hijab. She was attacked for being Muslim.
3. Marwa sued Alex for insulting her, not for physically attacking her.
4. Her husband, who rushed to intervene, was shot by a security guard. There are accusations that the guard just assumed the non-German was the attacker, however the incident is still being investigated. It is as likely that the guard, who was trying to stop a murderer, just missed.
5. As far as I know, the attacker is being charged with murder, and not, as some have reported 'manslaughter'.
6. This is the second time this year that a murder took place in a German court.
7. So far this year, one hijab-wearing Muslim girl was killed in Germany for not being Muslim enough. Another 20-year old was killed for not being a virgin. This follows up on dozens of cases in the past few years were Muslim women were killed by their Muslim family for not being Muslim enough. As far as I know Sherbini's case is the first one in Germany (possibly in Europe), where a woman is killed for being Muslim.
8. The murderer, Alex W., came to Germany from Russia in 2006. He's as German as Sherbini.
9. Alex W. did not belong to any racist groups.
10. Given the demonstrations against Germans in Egypt, maybe the German embassy should put out an advisory?
11. Why are Sherbini's family calling for revenge against a man being held by the German authorities?
Sherbini's family have called for revenge following the deadly knife attack on Wednesday.
"If she was just stabbed once, I would have said this is a mad man, but the number of times she and her husband were stabbed reflects the extent of racism this man had in him," Tarek Sherbini, the victim's brother, said.
"Here in Egypt, we believe in 'an eye for an eye'. The least we expect is the death penalty for the murderer." [ed: Germany does not have the death penalty]
"We will avenge her killing," her brother Tarek el-Sherbini told The Associated Press by telephone from the mosque where prayers were being recited in front of his sister's coffin. "In the West, they don't recognize us. There is racism."
12. While Egyptians are upset at one murder in Germany, they might want to remember that German tourists have been attacked, injured, killed and abducted in Egypt, as recently as this year.
YOU should have been a journalist or lawyer. Excellent post!
Posts: 1325 | From: For tooti http://www.csa.gov.uk/ | Registered: May 2009
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An excerpt from another article, unfortunately only available in German:
... From the countless conversations the German AUC student is having these days with Egyptians, it becomes clear that there are huge gaps in knowledge, and prejudices about the lifes of Muslims in the West.
"Most of the questions show concerns about the security of Muslims", says the student. Many are surprised to learn that almost four million Muslims are living in Germany, that they can practice their religion freely, and that there are mosques in all major cities.
Just as Western media are still portraying Muslims as terrorists and suppressed women under a veil, many Egyptians believe that Muslims in Europe are suppressed and discriminated against due to their religion.
The case of Marwa Al-Sherbini clearly shows how many prejudices and misunderstandings still exist on both sides, and that a lot of cultural exchange and communication work will still be necessary.
quote:Originally posted by Tibe still working: Yes lets boycot egyptian products in europe!!! OOOOHHH wait we dont have any
Actually, that's not true.
We have lots of things made from Egyptian cotton.
Organic cotton is mostly from Egypt. All baby clothes you can find at dm, a major German drugstore chain, are produced by Sekem in Egypt.
Organic spices, herbs, calendula are also from Egypt.
Fruit, vegetables, and potatoes. (I don't agree with importing potatoes to Europe for environmental reasons, but that's a different issue.)
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
It is a shame someone has to lose his/her life for something as stupid as a turn on a swing. It is a shame that a fellow Egyptian has to pay dearly with her life because a bloody sick minded a$$hole decided to practice his narrow minded, sick intolerant behavior.
On the other hand, watching the reaction of people here was really something. Everybody is trying to "ride the wave" which has been a famous Egyptian behavior for quite a while. Government officials, starting from the head of the Egyptian Parliament, has made that clear by announcing to the media that "I hold Germany responsible for not offering enough security within the courthouse",thus throwing a quart of gasoline on the already flamed masses. The Egyptian D.A. has announced that since this is a public opinion case, we are going to send an Egyptian representative to attend the hearings against the killer in Germany, and make sure that he gets his penalty".
Seems that any incident, not specifically this one in particular, would "broil" faster and reach phenomenal magnitude if you add to it a conspiracy theory, attack on Islam or anything related to it, or a West/East colonizing conflict.
I'm just wondering, what if the late Marwa El Sherbini's name was Nancy Botros, would our reaction be the same?
Posts: 657 | From: Cairo | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Nobody is allowed to take a life, wether it is because of using a swing or because of something else. A few years a go we had the ( in the meantime became famous) murder on Theo van Gogh, the filmmaker. Now this Theo was absolute not a friendly guy, and he talked in a very bad way about muslims. Untill one day, one muslim had enough and decided to kill him. He stabbed him several times (also a knife) and to finish it he pinned a letter on his body with that same knife. The perpetrator got caught soon, and is in jail. Nevertheless there are people fearing for their lifes, and are not able to life a normal life, because of their opinion about muslims or islam. I remember the fatwa on Salman Rusdie, the fatwa on that Britisch schoolteacher with that teddybear, and so on. Religious scholars are telling the people that it IS ALLOWED to take a life, when something happens that doesn't fit in their way of thinking!!! Now we see the same again. All this expressions are oil on a fire.
In fact it does not matter at all that this incident is the first, and that there have been many muslim women killed by their muslim families. It is murder, and the murderer gets punished, by German law. He will get the same treatment as the islamic murderers got. That's equality. There is no visit from an Egyptian DA needed for that.
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Sub-zero: I'm just wondering, what if the late Marwa El Sherbini's name was Nancy Botros, would our reaction be the same?
Good point!
quote:Originally posted by Sub-zero: It is a shame someone has to lose his/her life for something as stupid as a turn on a swing. It is a shame that a fellow Egyptian has to pay dearly with her life because a bloody sick minded a$$hole decided to practice his narrow minded, sick intolerant behavior.
Absolutely.
But we shouldn't forget that incidents like that are happening all the time, they just don't make it into the media.
More than ten years ago, I was beaten up brutally by some idiot wasn't able to pass me on my bike in his car since the street we were on was quite narrow. The guy had been convicted for physical injury and drug dealing before, and it was very obvious he was a very aggressive individual with a tendency to attack people for no reason, but there were no security guards or policemen in the courtroom. The fine imposed on him was ridiculous, much less than what the late Egyptian woman received for being insulted. And up to this day, I haven't received a single cent because he claims to be jobless.
He happened to be Turkish, btw., but it would never have crossed my mind that his nationality or mine had anything to do with what happened. He was just a frustrated, overly aggressive brute.
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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He happened to be Turkish, btw., but it would never have crossed my mind that his nationality or mine had anything to do with what happened. He was just a frustrated, overly aggressive brute. [/QB]
Unfortunately, your case has a lot to do with the nationality Dalia We have too many sickos in Turkey that have potential to beat you if you pass them while driving Posts: 2591 | From: **Ex Oriente Lux** | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
Originally posted by *Dalia*: That's possible, but what I meant is that he didn't attack me because I was German.
We didn't hear his story to make sure you're not guilty. Maybe he attacked you because you argued with him like you do with us people down here, but we can't reach you down here. Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
No, this is what I mean. There is absolutely NO reason possible to become violent to somebody else. If she was blocking the street, then perhaps she was wrong, but is that a reason to beat her up? Don't think so...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: Maybe he attacked you because you argued with him like you do with us people down here
I did argue with him when he jumped out of his car and started threatening me, but was that a justification for slamming his fist into my face, knocking my head on the concrete, and screaming "I'm going to kill you!"?
I don't think so.
Questionmarks, I did not "block" the street, he simply couldn't pass me because it was too narrow for a bike and a car at the same time. He came speeding and was angry because of that.
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
I know you didn't block the street. It was in the meaning of : Even IF she blocked the street, there is no justification for violence..
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Sub-zero: It is a shame someone has to lose his/her life for something as stupid as a turn on a swing. It is a shame that a fellow Egyptian has to pay dearly with her life because a bloody sick minded a$$hole decided to practice his narrow minded, sick intolerant behavior.
She did not lose her life for a turn on a swing. That would totally miss how important it was for her and others to stand for their rights and to make sure that racism has no place in Germany of the world. She acted like any good German citizen should. It takes courage and most of all conviction to act the way she did.
quote:Originally posted by Sub-zero: The Egyptian D.A. has announced that since this is a public opinion case, we are going to send an Egyptian representative to attend the hearings against the killer in Germany, and make sure that he gets his penalty".
What's a D.A? In any case that's the least the government could do. They should follow the case and have someone present in Germany to make sure that justice is done. Not saying that German justice is lacking but the Egyptian government has an obligation to care for the interest of its citizens around the world.
quote:Originally posted by Sub-zero: Seems that any incident, not specifically this one in particular, would "broil" faster and reach phenomenal magnitude if you add to it a conspiracy theory, attack on Islam or anything related to it, or a West/East colonizing conflict.
This specific case is racist in nature. No conspiracy, just pure racism.
quote:Originally posted by Sub-zero: I'm just wondering, what if the late Marwa El Sherbini's name was Nancy Botros, would our reaction be the same?
Based on the information widely available, if her name was Nancy Botros she would be alive today. But if Nancy Botros was murdered by anyone in this manner, any reasonable human being would be disgusted. And if Nancy Botros, was murdered by a racist, Copts would have a similar reaction and the rest of the world would have empathy for them.
Posts: 406 | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by current: In any case that's the least the government could do. They should follow the case and have someone present in Germany to make sure that justice is done. Not saying that German justice is lacking but the Egyptian government has an obligation to care for the interest of its citizens around the world.
And what exactly would that representative of Egypt be able to do? Do you think he would have any influence on the outcome of a trial? I don't think so.
And let's turn this around. Let's assume Germans get killed in a terrorist attack in Egypt, and the German government decides to send a representative to Egypt to attend the trial and make sure that "justice is done". Now the problem is that ideas about what exactly constitutes justice are different in both countries. Germans, for example, don't believe in the death penalty, whereas Egyptians do. Would the German representative be able to convince the Egyptian officials to not apply the death penalty in such a case? Highly unlikely.
Sorry, but I believe this whole idea of sending a representative to Germany "to ensure that justice is done" is nothing but empty talk with the intention to appease the masses.
quote:Originally posted by current: Based on the information widely available, if her name was Nancy Botros she would be alive today.
No, she wouldn't. This whole incident wasn't about a headscarf. That guy would have reacted the same way to any woman who would have been clearly identifiable as a non-German -- or rather, a non-European. Had she looked like a typical Nancy Boutros, he might have insulted her as a "dirty Arab" or something like that, and the outcome might have been the same.
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by current: In any case that's the least the government could do. They should follow the case and have someone present in Germany to make sure that justice is done. Not saying that German justice is lacking but the Egyptian government has an obligation to care for the interest of its citizens around the world.
And what exactly would that representative of Egypt be able to do? Do you think he would have any influence on the outcome of a trial? I don't think so.
And let's turn this around. Let's assume Germans get killed in a terrorist attack in Egypt, and the German government decides to send a representative to Egypt to attend the trial and make sure that "justice is done". Now the problem is that ideas about what exactly constitutes justice are different in both countries. Germans, for example, don't believe in the death penalty, whereas Egyptians do. Would the German representative be able to convince the Egyptian officials to not apply the death penalty in such a case? Highly unlikely.
Sorry, but I believe this whole idea of sending a representative to Germany "to ensure that justice is done" is nothing but empty talk with the intention to appease the masses.
The Egyptian representative and at the matter of fact anyone on the plant can make application to the court to.......... well to anything. To include evidence to exclude evidence to subpoena witnesses and whatever else they see fit. The court rules on the requests and the trial moves one. That does NOT have to happen but the whole idea is that someone watches over the interests of Egyptians. None of that is new, it happens all the time. What effect it has is irrelevant. At the very least they will observe and report to the EGyptian people. That exactly is their job. Appeal to the masses or whatever their intention is not important. The important thing is they are doing something they should be doing.
Now let's not keep arguing about this because with all honesty it does not amount to much.
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by current: Based on the information widely available, if her name was Nancy Botros she would be alive today.
No, she wouldn't. This whole incident wasn't about a headscarf. That guy would have reacted the same way to any woman who would have been clearly identifiable as a non-German -- or rather, a non-European. Had she looked like a typical Nancy Boutros, he might have insulted her as a "dirty Arab" or something like that, and the outcome might have been the same.
First of all, where did I say it was about the scarf? She was murdered because of who she was. The group she belonged to. That is racism in its broader definition. Now what's your point? Why did you quote only one line of my reply?
Here it is in its entirety:
quote:Originally posted by current: Based on the information widely available, if her name was Nancy Botros she would be alive today. But if Nancy Botros was murdered by anyone in this manner, any reasonable human being would be disgusted. And if Nancy Botros, was murdered by a racist, Copts would have a similar reaction and the rest of the world would have empathy for them.
She was murdered for who she was and it is quite natural for people of her group to be appalled and be the ones with the loudest voice. The rest of us will empathise with her.
But let's get down to it. Sub-zero wrote this:
quote:Originally posted by Sub-zero: I'm just wondering, what if the late Marwa El Sherbini's name was Nancy Botros, would our reaction be the same?
The implication here is that Muslims are overreacting and if it was copt, Muslims wouldn't have reacted in the same way. Well, I believe that to be true. But copts would've reacted in a similar way has she been copt. And my God if she was Jewish....... it would've been the end of the world as we knew it. The point here is Sub-zero's post was biased and I'm being kind here. Very kind indeed. He singled out Muslims and compared them to copts with the intention that Muslims are fanatics and ......well, you know him better than I do.
Posts: 406 | Registered: Mar 2008
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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Just like he would have if Egypt had won - as we are adults with a sense of humor. Y should try it one day.
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I have never heard of an Egyptian called Sheila before though![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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