posted
Why do we dislike liars, especially sociopaths, so much? It’s a matter of trust. When a person lies, they have broken a bond – an unspoken agreement to treat others as we would like to be treated.
In your everyday life do you treat people the way you expect them to treat you?
How would you like to be treated?
Do you consider 'white' lies harmless when you tell them, but are frustrated when you discover others are doing it to you?
Are you afraid of confrontation, or do you take the risk and tell it like it is - no matter the risk, and expect as well as accept the same in return?
And do you accept to be treated differently than the way you treat people?
A discussion on the above could be interesting.
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posted
In your everyday life do you treat people the way you expect them to treat you?
yes and i don't like liars. it always come back to you someday someway .so why do you ever have to lie? to impress someone , to cover up something ? if you are honest you have nothing to worry about .one lie goes into another lie and pretty soon you don't know what is the truth or just another lie.JMO
Posts: 9443 | From: USA...... | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
Hi Micky, that is my way too, but it seems that in many cultures it is very normal to lie a little, and to hide the truth, and to pretend certain things never happened.
It seems to be a way of life.
In Egypt, if you say the truth to your teacher or your boss or a colleague, very often you hear: is this a lie? with a suspicious look.
In the Middle East in general and in Mediterranean countries it is also the same, like Spain, Italy, Portugal etc..'White' lies seem to be so normal.
When people lie in general, how can they trust others?
When people treat people harshly, putting them down, how can they expect to be nicely treated in return?
Just wondering and thinking out loud, I guess Posts: 919 | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
I treat people the way they want me to treat them. I try to begin with being nice, fair, even not gossiping about them or telling personal things about them. If a person starts to get 'weird' and act strangely I back off, if they are in a foul mood, I try to ignore them. Ultimately people tell you how to treat them, I try not to let them decide what my mood will be, but in the end you get back from a person exactly what you want.
At the same time everyone makes mistakes, we are not perfect. If a friend messes up, I will probably forgive and forget, second time probably not. If they show a pattern of a certain behavior I don't care for I have not patience with helping them to overcome it. I don't form friendships to raise them as human beings, I form friendships with grown adult people who are mature enough to know how to conduct and handle themselves. Anything less is not worthy of my time or patience.
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posted
So what's the "truth" and what's the "lie"?
Maybe what's truth to you is a complete lie to someone else.
Maybe what's lie to you, is complete truth to someone else.
You are mixing truth and perception.
Someone may be very truthful if he/she tells you they see bugs on the road ( like I saw one homeless guy killing "imaginary" bugs on the road ), and because he/she is mentally ill and has hallucinations that you can't see, doesn't mean he lies.
Nothing is absolute.
It's all about perceptions.
Also, let's suppose someone asks you - how are you today? Do you always tell them how are you in reality? Or you often say - hey I am fantastic, or I am very well how about yourself? You see what I mean. Do you consider this as a lie? What about things you are unaware about? Let's say you were beaten as a child, but because this was painful experience over the years you pushed this far from you and you can't remember, or you need really a few hints to recall.
Let's say someone asks you have you ever been beaten by your loved ones, and you automatically say - NO. Is this response your truthful real response or you can't recall so you say only what you learned to beleieve and convince yourself about?
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posted
When people deny to themselves issues like rape or violence/abuse, or other traumatic events in their past, they need 'help'. But they might not realize it. What happens is that most of the time they will treat certain people in a very odd way, they will be aggressive towards some etc..unconsciously blocking their truth.
When people are blocked psychologically because of trauma, we can't perceive this as a 'lie'.
But if our perception tells us there is 'discord' in the attitude of a person, and what they are saying, then what?
Do we treat them as 'normal' and move on, or do we suggest that there might be something blocked? And how do we get to the botton of this?
Liars and people that treat people in an aggressive, abusive way at points, changing from smooth talk (lies?) to violent reactions (truth?), seem to be linked.
And how about 'gossip', mentioned by Smuckers, if people talk about someone, behind their back, do they expect that others do the same? and is that not disturbing for some?
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quote:Originally posted by Almaz.: Why do we dislike liars, especially sociopaths, so much? It’s a matter of trust. When a person lies, they have broken a bond – an unspoken agreement to treat others as we would like to be treated.
We like to be able to rely on people, instead of having to ask ourselves first whats the rate of reliability on what has been said to us.Thats where I often went wrong, because I expect people telling me the truth, and not everybody is doing that. It doesnt have to be a lie, it also can be their way to see a certain matter. In intercultural contacts this is even more difficult because people might have a totally different look to see a situation as it is.
In your everyday life do you treat people the way you expect them to treat you?
No. I`ll do this in the start, but after time, when I might realise that this person doesnt treat me as I treat them, I change my attitude. That can be in many different ways, the most imperative one is to completely ignore them and break all contact. This is a kind of emergency-escape. The person(s) are that much different and unreliable to me, and they are not prepared to change their attitude, so there is nothing else to do for me...
How would you like to be treated? Fair,honest, respectfull,friendly,open minded.
Do you consider 'white' lies harmless when you tell them, but are frustrated when you discover others are doing it to you? It depends on the lie itsselve, the rate of 'hurt' that can be in that lie.
Are you afraid of confrontation, or do you take the risk and tell it like it is - no matter the risk, and expect as well as accept the same in return? I'm not afraid of confrontation when I have to deal with somebody I can trust complete. I know they will appreciate my honesty, because they know the way I am. When I'm not certain about the person in front of me, it can go two ways: to confront or not to confront. I can decide to confront because I'm sick and tired of the person and I dont care how he/she will think about me. In that case I like that they know the truth ( my truth) and they can do what they want, or I dont care about them anyway and I want to spare myself the trouble. It has to do with my own emotional feelings at that moment. If I feel hurt because of the way they acted, it is a signal that I care, and I want to let the person know I am hurt.
And do you accept to be treated differently than the way you treat people? I HAVE to accept, because I cant change the way they have been treated me! But, I can do with it what I want.I can make them clear that it is difficult to me, or not. Think its the same as above. When I care, I try to make them clear. Otherwise I just let them say what they want, even when it is about me. I think people know me well enough, and if they dont, it doesnt matter anyway....
A discussion on the above could be interesting.
Nice discussion!
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posted
I copied your responses as they were included in my text and looked as if I was answering myself
quote:from ????? We like to be able to rely on people, instead of having to ask ourselves first whats the rate of reliability on what has been said to us.Thats where I often went wrong, because I expect people telling me the truth, and not everybody is doing that. It doesnt have to be a lie, it also can be their way to see a certain matter. In intercultural contacts this is even more difficult because people might have a totally different look to see a situation as it is.
From Almaz.: In your everyday life do you treat people the way you expect them to treat you?
No. I`ll do this in the start, but after time, when I might realise that this person doesnt treat me as I treat them, I change my attitude. That can be in many different ways, the most imperative one is to completely ignore them and break all contact. This is a kind of emergency-escape. The person(s) are that much different and unreliable to me, and they are not prepared to change their attitude, so there is nothing else to do for me...
From Almaz.: How would you like to be treated? Fair,honest, respectfull,friendly,open minded.
From Almaz.: Do you consider 'white' lies harmless when you tell them, but are frustrated when you discover others are doing it to you?
It depends on the lie itsselve, the rate of 'hurt' that can be in that lie.
From Almaz.:Are you afraid of confrontation, or do you take the risk and tell it like it is - no matter the risk, and expect as well as accept the same in return?
I'm not afraid of confrontation when I have to deal with somebody I can trust complete. I know they will appreciate my honesty, because they know the way I am. When I'm not certain about the person in front of me, it can go two ways: to confront or not to confront. I can decide to confront because I'm sick and tired of the person and I dont care how he/she will think about me. In that case I like that they know the truth ( my truth) and they can do what they want, or I dont care about them anyway and I want to spare myself the trouble. It has to do with my own emotional feelings at that moment. If I feel hurt because of the way they acted, it is a signal that I care, and I want to let the person know I am hurt.
From Almaz.: And do you accept to be treated differently than the way you treat people?
I HAVE to accept, because I cant change the way they have been treated me! But, I can do with it what I want.I can make them clear that it is difficult to me, or not. Think its the same as above. When I care, I try to make them clear. Otherwise I just let them say what they want, even when it is about me. I think people know me well enough, and if they dont, it doesnt matter anyway....
posted
Yes, I noticed, but I`m kind of an digibetic in working in this lay-out. Thank you for making it more clear.
When writing I realised that there is a part about emphasise and a part of how to deal with people having other personal norms and values. And also these norms and values can be different because of the way they live or have been raised.
I wonder about the rate of conscience by certain people. There is a sort of universal law about good and bad, no matter what the personal background and situation might be. Also I noticed a high rate of back laying conscience in the minds of people.
But some of them they put it away and try to justify their acts, to save their own faces. A friend once mentioned that there are a larger part of people from certain classes (low class) who dont have a conscience, he stated it that black and white. They have been raised in another way, and they had to learn only thinking about theirselves. I find that difficult to believe, in my opinion having no conscience is a mental disorder...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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Some of the cases I handle, are 'conscious' related, and I realize that people 'lie' looking so innocent about the way they treat the wife, the children etc. The cases I'm talking about are within the social work I do.
In general, the lower income families seem to justify the 'lies' or the violence or the aggressiveness, with their unfortunate low income and misery.
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quote:Originally posted by Almaz.: it seems that in many cultures it is very normal to lie a little, and to hide the truth, and to pretend certain things never happened.
It seems to be a way of life.
In Egypt, if you say the truth to your teacher or your boss or a colleague, very often you hear: is this a lie? with a suspicious look.
In the Middle East in general and in Mediterranean countries it is also the same, like Spain, Italy, Portugal etc..'White' lies seem to be so normal.
When people lie in general, how can they trust others?
When people treat people harshly, putting them down, how can they expect to be nicely treated in return?
Just wondering and thinking out loud, I guess
Exactly what I was thinking. I just can't stand the amount of lying in our culture. I know a guy who became a multi-millionaire based on a double lie. You see, he opened a clinic only to do Hymenorrhaphy (Hymen Repair) for the non-virgins about to be married for the first time.
Those young ladies lied about their virginity, and he lied to them about "repairing their hymen", because what he's actually doing is pulling the wall of the vagina together a bit so it would bleed when penetrated. Something that most of them wouldn't experience even if they were virgins.
Becoming rich based on one big myth is the ultimate Egyptian lie.
Posts: 8756 | From: Tax-Free Zone | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
They justify, or try to justify, but what I want to know is: how do they feel about their own attitude or acts, inside themselves? Do they tell theirselve the same justification maybe untill they believe it theirselve, or is that conscience continues working on the background against them? Because that should be a big reason to get mental problems.... And what if the lower income families become greater income families? Then they have to deal with people from that think and act different. But the low-income-attitude is part of them, and also they need to learn to survive in that particular level and shall like to stay on that level, because it is a better life. When their wealth is reached in a way that needs justification, they will remain to keep that split-personality. And all the time ( I think) their conscience is talking to them. I think something that big can be a reason to get in serious mental problems. Because they are constantly trying to keep balance in a matter that is not balanced at all, and at a certain moment they will fall. On ONE condition: They must have a conscience. When it is indeed like my friend said, they have no conscience, then the situation will be different. Then indeed it is possible that somebody just can be bad, their whole lifes through...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
Good thread! Just expanding a bit do you have different expectations / actions between your working life and personal life? I know I have a different level of expectation and treat people differently in my working life and personal life. I have also learnt from bitter experience not to mix my business life and my personal life as it never works for this very reason.
As an example of different expectations, as part of my work I am legally obliged to report any fraud I might come across during the course of my work. If I don't I have criminal liability and a possible prison sentence. Two years ago I reported a large tax fraud. These people not only lied to the authorities they also bared faced lied to me as an auditor. The investigation is now in full swing and they will pay dearly for their actions and yet I have no problem continuing to act and support them through all this in a professional capacity to secure the best outcome for the families involved.
If I was facing this level of lies in my personal life I could not remain cut off and act in the same way. I have very high expectations of those close to me.
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by MK the Most Interlectual:
quote:Originally posted by Almaz.: it seems that in many cultures it is very normal to lie a little, and to hide the truth, and to pretend certain things never happened.
It seems to be a way of life.
In Egypt, if you say the truth to your teacher or your boss or a colleague, very often you hear: is this a lie? with a suspicious look.
In the Middle East in general and in Mediterranean countries it is also the same, like Spain, Italy, Portugal etc..'White' lies seem to be so normal.
When people lie in general, how can they trust others?
When people treat people harshly, putting them down, how can they expect to be nicely treated in return?
Just wondering and thinking out loud, I guess
Exactly what I was thinking. I just can't stand the amount of lying in our culture. I know a guy who became a multi-millionaire based on a double lie. You see, he opened a clinic only to do Hymenorrhaphy (Hymen Repair) for the non-virgins about to be married for the first time.
Those young ladies lied about their virginity, and he lied to them about "repairing their hymen", because what he's actually doing is pulling the wall of the vagina together a bit so it would bleed when penetrated. Something that most of them wouldn't experience even if they were virgins.
Becoming rich based on one big myth is the ultimate Egyptian lie.
I think that people who are lying in general, also never trust somebody else, because of the way they are themselves. I have expierenced this many times. Also I expierenced the big amount of lies, and considering it as 'normal' to justify the lies within the family and friends, the so called 'covering each other'. To me the this is the ultimate Egyptian lie, somebody is lying and numbers of people cover him up, telling lies for their own, for many reasons. Because they are ashamed/loss of face. Because they get benefits out of the lies. Because they are afraid for unpleasant consequences. Because they want to protect somebody from their own, etc.etc. But there also can be a reason to be suspicious against strange people, when people have been damaged by such a person, or persons. I can imagine that, if somebody is honest and sincere and he expects others to do the same to him, sometimes can be hit hard as soon as he realised that the one(s) he trusted, in real has been a big liar. When the lies have been big enough, or the consequences of that lie are heavy/strong, people can get that suspicious that they have problems in trusting people. Not because of they way they are, but because of what has been done to them... In case of the hymen-repair-clinic, its a case of one liar cheating the other liar. Under pressure of society...
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posted
Thank you all for the interest in this thread! All your views and examples lead to one certainty, no moral integrity is really what causes the corruption, the fraud acts and the double lies leading to bigger crimes. Acting in opposition to what is considered right or proper morally, socially and religiously.
As ????? said, it is a matter of conscience.
What is intriguing is the religious facade. It proves that people do not understand their religion. They pray but lie. They steal but build a Mosque or give at a Church with the stolen money, and it goes on from corruption to corruption.
I was working on a case where the man did 10 years in prison. Out he is, now richer than ever. He paid his debt to society. He deserves his stolen money!
First thing he is doing, is build a Mosque! He is thanking God for his 'stolen' fortune.
He treats people as if he is the master of the universe. He paid his debt to society. he will go to Mecca!
No scruples what so ever but lots of religious fraud!
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posted
So, you dont understand either? I really should like to know what is inside of this minds. How do they think about the ones who were victims, how do they think about their own acts? Are they justifying that to theirselves, or dont they even think about any other person?
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by MK the Most Interlectual:
quote:
...I know a guy who became a multi-millionaire based on a double lie. You see, he opened a clinic only to do Hymenorrhaphy (Hymen Repair) for the non-virgins about to be married for the first time.
Those young ladies lied about their virginity, and he lied to them about "repairing their hymen", because what he's actually doing is pulling the wall of the vagina together a bit so it would bleed when penetrated. Something that most of them wouldn't experience even if they were virgins.
Becoming rich based on one big myth is the ultimate Egyptian lie.
My comment is not on the topic of this thread, so forgive me almaz. But I just mention this because I think it only further feeds unhealthy fascinations with women around the world.
This statement above gives the impression that most women in Egypt do engage in premarital sex. Now I realize you didn't explicitly say that, but if you're saying he became a 'multi-millionaire', I think the common reader would assume that he has many clients.
While there isn't much doubt that there must be exceptions to every rule, for the most part it is not the cultural (not religious) norm in Egypt. Perhaps your experiences have shown you otherwise in Egypt, but that's not what I saw there.
I'm not doubting your story 'that he opened his clinic to only do hymen repair', but it sounds like the myth perpetuated by perverted misogynist male gynecologists in Egypt (who don't have successful private practices). Reproductive endocrinology is the lucrative thing there, as it is elsewhere.
Posts: 483 | From: cairo | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Almaz.: When people deny to themselves issues like rape or violence/abuse, or other traumatic events in their past, they need 'help'. But they might not realize it. What happens is that most of the time they will treat certain people in a very odd way, they will be aggressive towards some etc..unconsciously blocking their truth.
Just because you had been traumatized at one point in your life, doesn't mean you are mentally ill. It only means you were shaken by event and your psyche will weather or not you want it or not, eventually push unwanted traumas into the deeper levels of conscious ( this was Freudian theory actually ) so that when someone asks you, you can't remember. You may remember later on if person gives you a few hints.
There is no person in the world that hasn't been traumatized by something in their life. We must be understanding of such scenarios and not judge people as liers.
Another example is for instance a woman lost her husband and when police comes to tell her he is found dead, she will say - no, he can't be dead! And than she will believe that he is alive despite of evidence that proves otherwise. She simply will not accept such painful experience easily but reject it as long as she can to make herself feel better. Some will act like this for years, hoping that one day one day he may be found.
There is no person alive that always speak "truth" and always speak absolute truth valid for everyone, because absolute truth valid for everyone doesn't exist.
However if you meet people who twist the truth to gain or manipulate, again, this is hard to judge unless we really know all facts and evidence. Some people are unaware of what they are really saying, and some people missunderstand, and some people hear different story from story that is been said, there are so many situations... we can't so surelly always know, somewhere some misscomunication took place and it developed from there. You mean 1 thing, person takes it as another, you don't bother to correct perception person has, person keeps believing same thing, judgments is then formed based on original perception that is could be inaccurate etc...
quote:And how about 'gossip', mentioned by Smuckers, if people talk about someone, behind their back, do they expect that others do the same? and is that not disturbing for some?
Gossip is form of obsession and/or unhealthy fascination about an individual. Nice topic Almaz, keep it up!
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posted
As a social worker and psychologist, and I think specially in Egypt,you are in contact with the most extraordinary examples of the society.
I also think the reason to get under treatment will be different as in the States. As far as I know in the US its not so uncommon to visit a psychologist, in my own country there must be a medical need for it, and in Egypt the very rich might visit one, and the ones who were send there by Justice.(am I right, Almaz?)
So, I think the level of "need" a psychologist in Egypt is another one as in our countries.
I can imagine that Almaz`s expierences shall not fit into the picture of the common Western woman who has a connection with Egypt, the common Western woman shall not meet criminality and she also shall not meet the very rich.
In average she shall meet the "common people' and take this as her perspective of what and how Egypt is.
However we may not close our eyes for what is happening. We may bump into people that won`t fit into our perspective about Egypt. And then we won`t recognise it.
For me I recognise it 100%. Quote: What is intriguing is the religious facade. It proves that people do not understand their religion. They pray but lie. They steal but build a Mosque or give at a Church with the stolen money, and it goes on from corruption to corruption.
It took me a long time to find out, because it is a strange culture, and people cover up each other. It was not a meet and greet with the average Egyptian, and it can happen to all of us, because there are many of them. And most of the lies are covered up for everybody who is not one of them.
Like in the example the criminal who build a mosque: people shall honour him for that, and say its a good man. Maybe they know how he made his money and are hoping to get benefits, or maybe they dont know and simply state that it must be a good man, because he build a mosque. The hypocricy, the false illusion, the made up image, and its full of them....
You wont meet them in a Red Sea area resort, or in a visit to the pyramids, maybe you will meet one of the sidewalking people that are hoping and willing to take a share of his fortune.
Because thats the only thing what counts: money (and sex). They go before religion, before morals, before values, and before everything what should be considered as a good characteristic. For money and sex every principle will be put aside.... It is a bad and a sad conclusion, but I dont have enough fingers to count all my expierences with this kind of people.
And maybe you will understand that I am cautius.
Because I know the type of guys that are searching around, not the big ones as I described, but the ones that are willing to put their principles behind to share a bit of what can be offered...
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by MK the Most Interlectual:
quote:
...I know a guy who became a multi-millionaire based on a double lie. You see, he opened a clinic only to do Hymenorrhaphy (Hymen Repair) for the non-virgins about to be married for the first time.
Those young ladies lied about their virginity, and he lied to them about "repairing their hymen", because what he's actually doing is pulling the wall of the vagina together a bit so it would bleed when penetrated. Something that most of them wouldn't experience even if they were virgins.
Becoming rich based on one big myth is the ultimate Egyptian lie.
My comment is not on the topic of this thread, so forgive me almaz. But I just mention this because I think it only further feeds unhealthy fascinations with women around the world.
This statement above gives the impression that most women in Egypt do engage in premarital sex. Now I realize you didn't explicitly say that, but if you're saying he became a 'multi-millionaire', I think the common reader would assume that he has many clients.
While there isn't much doubt that there must be exceptions to every rule, for the most part it is not the cultural (not religious) norm in Egypt. Perhaps your experiences have shown you otherwise in Egypt, but that's not what I saw there.
I'm not doubting your story 'that he opened his clinic to only do hymen repair', but it sounds like the myth perpetuated by perverted misogynist male gynecologists in Egypt (who don't have successful private practices). Reproductive endocrinology is the lucrative thing there, as it is elsewhere.
Cairobug- your comments are so relevant to the subject since we are discussing, lies and trust and conscience, and do you treat people the way you want to be treated.
Egypt is a country with a population of almost 80 million. It is normal that we will not all be exposed to everything negative, or everything positive within the country. Some issues are totally hidden, secrecy is a must because of 'honor murders' and other incredible crimes if the hymen of a 'girl' is not so- called 'intact'.
In the past ten years in Egypt, the hymen repair surgery is known to have reduced 80 % of the murders, committed when a bride was found not to be a virgin on the wedding night.
Hymen repair surgery, hymenorraphy: suturing the remnants of the 'ruptured' hymen together along with a gelatin capsule. The capsule contains a substance (like blood). The groom will not be 'disappointed'. His bride's virginity perceived as intact, when the substance capsule bursts during intercourse.
In Egypt, women are paying between 500 to 3,600 Egyptian pounds for hymenorraphy, and in Turkey a price for hymenorraphy is estimated to be between 700 and 7250 Egyptian pounds.
Betrayal is also the lack of moral integrity as we realize.
Not ALL girls in Egypt have pre-marital sex. But a high percentage have Urfi marriages, and then regret it and go for the hymen repair - at all costs - some urfi husbands pay for the hymen repair as a 'Gift' to the ex-urfi bride for her future happiness and so on...
Some girls are the victims of sexual abuse as children. Incest, is part of this abominable act.
How do parents hide this: hymen repair - at all costs.
Again, lies and betrayal and no conscience, but a need for survival and social acceptance!
MK only uncovered a tiny bit of what is really happening. Those same types of doctors are making a fortune in ALL Muslim countries. What I'm saying is considered Taboo.
Posts: 919 | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:I also think the reason to get under treatment will be different as in the States. As far as I know in the US its not so uncommon to visit a psychologist, in my own country there must be a medical need for it, and in Egypt the very rich might visit one, and the ones who were send there by Justice.(am I right, Almaz?)
So, I think the level of "need" a psychologist in Egypt is another one as in our countries.
The mentality is slowly changing. TV promotes it really often.
One of the most respected Psychologists in Egypt that also has an international reputation, Dr Okasha, is consistently a guest on TV talk shows.
Four organisations -- the New Woman, the Woman's Issues Centre, the Egyptian Child Centre and the Helwan Association for Developing Society launch public campaigns regarding the need of psychological help in our society.
Posts: 919 | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Just because you had been traumatized at one point in your life, doesn't mean you are mentally ill. It only means you were shaken by event and your psyche will weather or not you want it or not, eventually push unwanted traumas into the deeper levels of conscious ( this was Freudian theory actually ) so that when someone asks you, you can't remember. You may remember later on if person gives you a few hints
Adults with post-traumatic stress disorder or major depressive disorder show abnormalities in the structure and function of part of the brain.
As well as teenagers with trauma history, symptoms of depression and either post traumatic health disorder or anxiety symptoms.
About speaking the 'truth' and no one being absolutely truthful - at all times - is human, you have a very valid point.
Posts: 919 | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote: In Egypt, women are paying between 500 to 3,600 Egyptian pounds for hymenorraphy, and in Turkey a price for hymenorraphy is estimated to be between 700 and 7250 Egyptian pounds.
Betrayal is also the lack of moral integrity as we realize.
Not ALL girls in Egypt have pre-marital sex. But a high percentage have Urfi marriages, and then regret it and go for the hymen repair - at all costs - some urfi husbands pay for the hymen repair as a 'Gift' to the ex-urfi bride for her future happiness and so on...
So it's a veiled prostitution? Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Almaz.: I call it misguidance and survival/ before and after: misguidance before the Urfi and survival after!
Generated by a serious lack of religious knowledge, as well as a lack of conscience!
Well, a good parent should prepare their daughter to what can happen in case of men. The problem is that most mothers don`t know, and most fathers keep it a secret! In case of the mothers she only shall know when she has had expierence in that, for the fathers its the same, but they hide their secrets. Instead of talk with their daughters, they protect them and keep them within their reach and influence as much as possible. So, thats why the girls are very limited in their freedom. This is all in case if there is a father and a mother and they have good intentions with their daughter. Sometimes the mothers are alone, devorced, widow, husband working outside, etc. The unexpierenced mothers know nothing. And there can be a lot to get with this women, maybe daughters, maybe money, etc. She has no clue... The daughters also want to have a bit of freedom. It depends on the people around what can happen. I can assure you that horrible things can happen. From losing virginity and a reconstruction of it, to totally traumatised girls, that bad that they have to go to a mental institution, or revenge, violence, criminality or prostitution. There are drugrelated links, there are prostitution related links, there are "just the ocassionally abuse" links. These kind of clinics with reconstruction possibilities, the illegal abortions, it is all a result of the religious rules and the social impacts of that.
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quote:it is all a result of the religious rules and the social impacts of that.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I see it more a huge problem in the way religions are TAUGHT. Not the rules of religions. Religions are supposed to protect us from harming ourselves, as I see them. The rigid and so often convoluted way they are taught, is where the problem lies. In my opinion.
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quote:Originally posted by MK the Most Interlectual:
quote:
...I know a guy who became a multi-millionaire based on a double lie. You see, he opened a clinic only to do Hymenorrhaphy (Hymen Repair) for the non-virgins about to be married for the first time.
Those young ladies lied about their virginity, and he lied to them about "repairing their hymen", because what he's actually doing is pulling the wall of the vagina together a bit so it would bleed when penetrated. Something that most of them wouldn't experience even if they were virgins.
Becoming rich based on one big myth is the ultimate Egyptian lie.
My comment is not on the topic of this thread, so forgive me almaz. But I just mention this because I think it only further feeds unhealthy fascinations with women around the world.
This statement above gives the impression that most women in Egypt do engage in premarital sex. Now I realize you didn't explicitly say that, but if you're saying he became a 'multi-millionaire', I think the common reader would assume that he has many clients.
While there isn't much doubt that there must be exceptions to every rule, for the most part it is not the cultural (not religious) norm in Egypt. Perhaps your experiences have shown you otherwise in Egypt, but that's not what I saw there.
I'm not doubting your story 'that he opened his clinic to only do hymen repair', but it sounds like the myth perpetuated by perverted misogynist male gynecologists in Egypt (who don't have successful private practices). Reproductive endocrinology is the lucrative thing there, as it is elsewhere.
Cairobug- your comments are so relevant to the subject since we are discussing, lies and trust and conscience, and do you treat people the way you want to be treated.
Egypt is a country with a population of almost 80 million. It is normal that we will not all be exposed to everything negative, or everything positive within the country. Some issues are totally hidden, secrecy is a must because of 'honor murders' and other incredible crimes if the hymen of a 'girl' is not so- called 'intact'.
In the past ten years in Egypt, the hymen repair surgery is known to have reduced 80 % of the murders, committed when a bride was found not to be a virgin on the wedding night.
Hymen repair surgery, hymenorraphy: suturing the remnants of the 'ruptured' hymen together along with a gelatin capsule. The capsule contains a substance (like blood). The groom will not be 'disappointed'. His bride's virginity perceived as intact, when the substance capsule bursts during intercourse.
In Egypt, women are paying between 500 to 3,600 Egyptian pounds for hymenorraphy, and in Turkey a price for hymenorraphy is estimated to be between 700 and 7250 Egyptian pounds.
Betrayal is also the lack of moral integrity as we realize.
Not ALL girls in Egypt have pre-marital sex. But a high percentage have Urfi marriages, and then regret it and go for the hymen repair - at all costs - some urfi husbands pay for the hymen repair as a 'Gift' to the ex-urfi bride for her future happiness and so on...
Some girls are the victims of sexual abuse as children. Incest, is part of this abominable act.
How do parents hide this: hymen repair - at all costs.
Again, lies and betrayal and no conscience, but a need for survival and social acceptance!
MK only uncovered a tiny bit of what is really happening. Those same types of doctors are making a fortune in ALL Muslim countries. What I'm saying is considered Taboo.
Thank you for your reply Almaz. I couldn't have worded it better. I only wanted to add that not only Orfi marriage is common, but the late marriage age for both sexes in Egypt have made premarital sex almost a normal thing nowadays. I am surprised by what I hear as if I come from the stone age, and it's for sure a taboo that foreigners would hardly have access to its reality.
Cairobug, of course this doctor who has his clinic solely for Hymenorrhaphy has no billboard saying Hole Closure Clinic or anything. He is a gynecologist widely known for the procedure through mouth-to-mouth advertising, and almost all his patients come for that specific treatment. His first name is Amr BTW. We went to the same faculty but he was one year older (oh have I ever told you that Ayman Al-Zawahiri also went to my faculty? )
You'd be surprised to know the truth, Cairobug. You'd be really surprised.
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posted
Well, also Christianity has strict rules regarding this subject. But most of the people try to find a way that is socially acceptable instead of religious acceptable. They only can do this because a woman has the possibility to be independant, financially and socially. It isnt that long ago that devorced women were stigmatised, that it was not social acceptable to have premarital contacts, and were not able to have a life of their own. My father is a very conservative man, comparable with the traditional Egyptian father, but one of the things he insisted on when I was young, is to be able to get a life without a husband. The reason for that was that his mother became a widow on a very young age, left behind with 6 young children, and the death of his father resulted in a poor life. He wanted to make sure that his daughters wouldnt have to expierence this. At the same time, times were changing, birth-control got within the reach of every woman, education was possible for everybody, and we could become independant more easy. Right now social norms are quite different as they were when I was a teenager. Religion has a place in life of people, but mostly it is a place behind. And I dont regret that. It is able to live following the basic rules of good and bad, and know freedom and indepenancy at the same time...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
MK and Almaz: It is by no means the majority. Even if orfi has been on the rise in the past few years, it does not mean that the majority of women there have had this procedure or that premarital sex or casual sex is the norm there.
MK I'm very familiar with that faculty and also know that famous alumni's mother was also a gynecologist Have seen the gyn dept there, the outpatient clinics and have even seen this procedure. I understand how you may think I don't know what I'm talking about, but I have heard the rumors about this and I'm not saying it doesn't exist at all. I'm just saying it is not by any means the majority. Unless there's been some kind of decent study done by the National Research center that I'm not aware of, I'm basing this on studies and my experiences there in the ob/gyn world.
Almaz the 80% you mentioned, is 80% of what study sample size?
And what is the big deal? I hate seeing women talk about women in this way, it's part of this perpetuated cycle of misogyny--Why are we judging them? If society is imposing this cultural requirement, not supported by religion, and is not mature enough to accept them and see their growth--then why can't you just see this as cleft lip reconstructive surgery?
-------------------- Disclaimer: My posts are not meant to personally offend anyone. If you find yourself reading my posts repeatedly, you are kindly asked to seek the help of a professional Posts: 483 | From: cairo | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
I pulled up the original article, where I'm guessing you came across that number Almaz, that number ('80%') is 'what local policemen' say in an article (not based on any study) regarding crime drop in 'honor killing' and it does not reflect the prevalence of this procedure amongst Egyptian women (or any correlation regarding premarital sex, or casual sex in the general population). There's a critique on that article, that is also flawed.
-------------------- Disclaimer: My posts are not meant to personally offend anyone. If you find yourself reading my posts repeatedly, you are kindly asked to seek the help of a professional Posts: 483 | From: cairo | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Pulled from my secondary research, re my social studies. To give you a sample of my primary research is not possible as it is strictly confidential data.
[Part of the data I mentioned was by Sara Paterson-Brown, consultant obstetrician and gynaecologist
email: s.paterson-brown@rpms.ac.uk]
References
1 Kandela P. Egypt's trade in hymen repair. Lancet 1996:347:1615.
2 Underhill R A, Dewhurst J. The doctor cannot always tell: medical examination of the "intact" hymen. Lancet 1978:i:375-6.
3 Emans S J, Wood E R, Allred E N, Grace E. Hymenal findings in adolescent women: impact of tampon use and consensual sexual activity. J Pediatr 1994;125:153-60.
4 Fenton K, Johnson A M, Nicoll A. Race, ethnicity, and sexual health. BMJ 1997;314:1703-4.
5 Lacey C J N, Merrick D W, Bensley V C, Fairley I. Analysis of the sociodemography of gonorrhoea in Leeds, 1989-93. BMJ 1997;314:1715-8.
6 Low N, Daker-White G, Barlow D, Pozniak AL. Gonorrhoea in inner London: results of a cross sectional study. BMJ 1997;314:1719-23.
7 De Cock K M, Low N. HIV and AIDS, other sexually transmitted diseases, and tuberculosis in ethnic minorities in United Kingdom: is surveillance serving its purpose? BMJ 1997:314:1747-51.
8 Adler M W. Sexual health - a Health of the Nation failure. BMJ 1997;314:1743-7.
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Yes, I know (that's the flawed response I was referring to, especialy in terms of the 'koran dictates the bride should be a virgin'). The original quote is from the Kandela article in the Lancet. I pulled that article today, and saw the 80% he was talking about.
I came across this article in the past before, and the response. That's why I asked, it's 80% of what study sample.
Please see the full text Kandela piece, and he's not even a gynecologist in the Middle East.
-------------------- Disclaimer: My posts are not meant to personally offend anyone. If you find yourself reading my posts repeatedly, you are kindly asked to seek the help of a professional Posts: 483 | From: cairo | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Almaz, I've come across these articles in the past. I'm not disputing the ethics of this procedure, or the clinical aspects of examining a hymen, or how it can be torn. I'm just merely saying that these articles don't prove that the majority of Egyptian women (irreguardless of faith) have premarital sex, even if Orfi is on the rise.
I'm just saying by stating things in a certain way, people would like to link the two, and see it as a correlation--which it is not.
Best of luck with your study.
-------------------- Disclaimer: My posts are not meant to personally offend anyone. If you find yourself reading my posts repeatedly, you are kindly asked to seek the help of a professional Posts: 483 | From: cairo | Registered: Mar 2006
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It is indeed a disturbing phenomenon that in the Middle East and especially in Egypt, pre-marital sex is spreading, and in turn generating the unwanted pregnancies, hymen repair, secret abortions - performed at home in many cases, leading to bleeding to death, and other disastrous results if women survive the unprofessional way some 'charlatans' criminally perform abortions, in the underground and poor districts of Cairo and Alexandria -
All of the above leading to fraud, betrayal, lies, crimes of honor, unwanted children, traumatic experiences, abuse, violence, followed by disturbing psychological results affecting children.
Back in February a very shocking 'hymen Fatwa' was released. Top cleric, Grand Mufti Ali Gomaa, publicly condoned a religious edict allowing reconstructive hymen surgery.
My primary research started then, helping me on the major exploration of an influential approach, to the understanding and treatment of emotional disorders.
Speaking about other women in an unfair way is definitely not my objective.
This thread was to discuss how we treat others and accept to be treated ... as a personal refusal to the double standard that goes on in our societies, leading to disturbing emotional disorders, negatively affecting the upbringing of the next generations.
I do appreciate your challenging input, and find the discussions very healthy!Thanks. Posts: 919 | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
The quality of our life depends on our psychological condition, not only on the condition of our heart or lungs.
Admitting there is a catastrophic situation in our societies, leading to total messed up human beings, is the first step to advancement.
Now in Egypt, psychological and psychiatric patients are given more help, and much more respect.
When people are found guilty of fraud or other corrupted acts, it astonishes their friends. If we search in the background of these people we often find unhealthy psychological conditions.
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posted
So Almaz if you are so passionate about women who lost their virginity for any reason whatsover and are treated harshly and cruel because of that, and you are Truth lover, why don't you form an Organization to save those women and fight for them and the Truth.
You can fight and educate youth that losing virginity should not be reason for condemnation and unhappiness, and explain what you just explained here - the consequences of such behavior.
To me complaining about something and having strong opinion but not doing anything to change it or improve it - is not worth much. If this bothers you so much, why don't you start such organization and change or influence public opinions in egyptian society? Nobody benefits much from talking.
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posted
Creating the awareness and speaking about double standards, liars, betrayals, corruption and analysing such behaviors in our societies, is far from just 'complaining' in my opinion.
I'm passionate about stopping the 'double standards' and about a healthier society, where we treat people as we like to be treated, where the awareness - of emotional and mental disturbances caused by acts like rape, violence, sexual harrassment, verbal and sexual child abuse, incest, forced prostitution, etc.- exists, with solutions.
I'm passionate about educating the less fortunate, and wish that the available mental help in Egypt contributes to stop and/or at least lessen, the lies, the frauds and the corruption within the next generations; starting the healing at an early age, so no one needs to hide, and live a lie, probably ruining other people's lives, like pretending virginity (an existing example in our society that became a public issue since last February when the Mufti Ali Gomaa condoned it)or hiding other wives and children, abusing good people that are naive enough to fall in the trap of such sociopaths liars.
Normally, there are phases before you reach a solution to any problem.
First we identify the problem, then we conduct a research and work on case studies, then we reach out to the Governements and/or private organizations like Lions, Rotary etc.. then to the people, creating the awareness of such cases, we go fundraising, and finally we develop solutions.
Then, we create the awareness of such solutions, usually campaigning about them, and about their form, like these organizations, where my social work takes me: -- the New Woman, the Woman's Issues Centre, the Egyptian Child Centre, the Helwan Association for Developing Society, the Egyptian Center for Women Rights.
Discussing the above with others on a forum, if given the opportunity, away from a daily medical/sociological/political/bureaucratic/academic environment, is also a form of 'collective' analysis, that is valid in my opinion.
I do appreciate everyone's interest and input.
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I think Egypt already has started with making people aware on more issues that are ready to change. I already talked about this here, and I met the kind of attitude as: Who are you to tell us what is wrong... As long as there are victims, where one party is overpowering another one, in my view it is wrong. Also my opinion is that it is chosing the easy way to state to just accept it. And also it is chosing the easy way to state that people have to do something against it instead as only having an opinion about it.(somebody else has to take action) Because every thinking person must realise that it isnt that easy. Education, information, of course, but there are millions of men who have something completely different in mind, and they have to give up something what they see as a kind of right. It is rather complex, sure as a foreigner, but what we are able to do?
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Funds collected with extreme tough work, through the list of organizations I mentioned earlier, do help some of the less fortunate to benefit from such a 'psychiatric health resort'!
Egypt has a long way to go but I see many positive signs from my angle, somehow!
You will notice the School consultations and training of teachers: 'Our team is working with a number of schools on promoting mental health and the early detection of any psychological or psychiatric disturbances in school aged children. We offer seminars and training workshops for teachers, parents and administrators of schools. We also hold awareness meetings for students tackling different topics of interest'
There are governement and private sector generated funds, for public schools to benefit from these services.
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Recently I talked with somebody about the possibilities that Egypt offered for mental disabled children.That person told me that there was only one (private) school in Cairo, English staff, and, of course, very expensive. Most people dont have the money to pay for it. The objective was to try to let disabled children develope themselve as much as possible. They seemed to book good results, and I should visit the school during one of my visits, purely out of interest. I`ve heard the most horrible stories about how parents can treat their mental disabled children, but I think it is often a result out of ignorance and false shame. And of course it is also ashame that nobody seems to care about it, after all it are human beings, with the same right on a humanly existence as everybody else....
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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Slowly but surely we will get there...as long as we discuss, analyse, fundraise, organize, advertize, act on it and keep at it!
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The Chinese proverb "If you want to help someone, don’t give them a fish, teach them how to fish.” is right. When I take a look at the starting donation LE 30.000 to help TWENTY-EIGHT families, then I have to think about the families who are giving 800 dollars pocketmoney when their child is going away for a week on a holiday-camp with their schools. What a unequality...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
I never treated people the way I like them to treat and they did, they are always paying back with ingratefulness ...
Posts: 890 | Registered: Sep 2007
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quote:Originally posted by ?????: The Chinese proverb "If you want to help someone, don’t give them a fish, teach them how to fish.” is right. When I take a look at the starting donation LE 30.000 to help TWENTY-EIGHT families, then I have to think about the families who are giving 800 dollars pocketmoney when their child is going away for a week on a holiday-camp with their schools. What a unequality...
Are you a communiste ?!!!!! Posts: 890 | Registered: Sep 2007
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