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There is something medieval about the urge always to blame other women for their men's perfidies
Why do we always blame the other woman when men have an affair? By CAROL SARLER - More by this author » Last updated at 09:03am on 4th October 2007
So here we go again: two women, down and dirty in the gutter, spitting and scratching their way through an almighty catfight, just as - you can be quite sure - the lads love to see us.
Christine Hilliard, in the normally genteel surrounds of Weston-super- Mare, discovered that her fiancé was having an affair with their neighbour, a glamorous woman by the name of Jenny Kinch.
Enraged beyond sense, Christine wrote 50 letters and posted them around the whole area, telling all who would read them that Jenny is "a cheap slut and a man-stealer".
Jenny replied caustically that Christine was "a bunny boiler".
Miaow. Ladies, please!
What is so drearily predictable about the spat is that Miss Hilliard's hatred is directed not at the erring fiancé, Paul Muldoon — all she did to him was to help him pack his stuff — but at Miss Kinch.
It seems that they live on some strange planet where it takes one to tango.
This is a peculiar habit of betrayed women and their supporters. When Kylie Minogue's on-off boyfriend Olivier Martinez was apparently caught out with actress Sarai Givati, women around the globe (and it is women who get het up about it; very rarely do men get more agitated than a saucy chuckle) became indignant on Kylie's behalf: this woman, they all agreed, "stole" the man.
In vain did Givati point out that men aren't suitcases: you can't just pick them up and walk off with them.
But nobody was particularly interested in her plea. Meanwhile, Martinez said nothing at all; he didn't need to.
When Brad Pitt left Jennifer Aniston and later set up home with Angelina Jolie, women across the U.S. wore T-shirts declaring them members of "Team Aniston" or "Team Jolie" — the first, naturally, far out-numbering the second.
Again, not a word about Brad, who had only to walk down a street to see signs of two gorgeous women seemingly fighting over him. What an ego boost.
Anthea Turner's entire career fell to bits when she, too, became "the other woman" and "stole" Della Bovey's husband Grant.
Until that story broke, probably the worst thing anybody had ever said about television's golden girl was by her GMTV cohost Eamonn Holmes, when he famously dubbed her "Princess Tippy-Toes".
Suddenly, however, she became a "home-wrecker" and a "harlot" and, within weeks, she had toppled from her pedestal into the professional mire.
Bovey? Oh, he's doing fine, thanks.
Most famously, the memorial service in August for Princess Diana may well be best remembered for the row over whether it would have been appropriate for Camilla, the Duchess of Cornwall — the "third" person in Diana's marriage — to have attended.
It wouldn't have been, and it was right that she did not.
But not an eyebrow was raised at Charles's presence: despite the fact that it was he and not Camilla who had made sacred promises to Diana, then broken them (and her heart) by cheating on her.
One of the —very many — reasons that women by the million hate Heather Mills McCartney as much as we do is that there is a perception that by marrying Sir Paul so soon after Linda's death she was somehow stomping on Linda's memory.
Yet if we were to be logical, we would recall that Heather never met Linda, so she has no memory of her; if any stomping has been done, it is by the same Sir Paul whom women still adore.
There is something medieval about the urge among women always to blame other women for their men's perfidies.
It takes us back to a belief in witches and the casting of dark spells so enchanting that a mere mortal male cannot be expected to resist them.
Quick, fetch that ducking stool. Why this interpretation of events in a wronged woman's mind is so appealing is understandable.
If a witch "steals" the man, he couldn't help himself, and so he didn't really want to cast you off like an old sock.
If another equally ordinary human "steals" him — picks him up, as Sarai Givati put it, like walking off with somebody else's suitcase — then you might be forced to wonder why you ever invested time in such a weak-willed, passive lump in the first place.
More difficult still: if you accept that the other woman is just as human as you are, it invites the uncomfortable question: what has she got that you haven't?
The trouble is, if you flail around in the undignified manner currently employed by Christine Hilliard of Weston-super-Mare, that is the question you put into other people's heads, too.
Even I found myself comparing pictures in the Mail of her and Jenny Kinch and thinking, well, on balance, I can see why the man might have been tempted.
I am not suggesting that a woman should try to overcome her hatred for her rival.
The initial jealousy she might feel of the new woman will lead to the realisation of her loss, and this, in turn, to hatred; this is only natural and such emotions should be indulged until time heals her wounds.
But when it comes to assigning blame, lay it on the shoulders of the person to whom it rightly belongs: his.
So much classier, so much more stylish, so much more fun.
Where Christine Hilliard is just making a fool of herself, Lady Sarah Moon made herself into an icon in the early 1990s.
Upon discovering her husband's philanderings, she cut off one sleeve of each of his 32 bespoke Savile Row suits, poured five litres of white paint over his BMW and, best of all, emptied his cherished wine cellar to leave a costly bottle of claret on each of the neighbours' doorsteps.
Attagirl!
And if following that woman's carefully-targeted example doesn't calm your rage, there's always another's to bear in mind.
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This is a tough one for me. My husband left me for another woman and is married to her today. I have had to suck up my feelings of hatred due to the fact that she is my kids' stepmom and they've known her since they were one and two years old. I don't want them to feel guilty about loving her, you know?
BUT...............I do blame her just as much as I blame him. He's not off the hook by any means but she is just as much to blame. She knew not only that he was married but that he had JUST had a new baby when they met and yet she went over to his shop every single day to flirt with him. Obviously he should have kept his pants on and when it got too much he should have told her to stop coming around, etc. but she did keep on coming around. I'd say it's 50/50 as far as the blame goes.
Posts: 1808 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2006
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I totally don't agree with that, let the kids know what kind of a person he married, don't let her off the hook and I would personally refuse to let my children be with somebody like that. What is it with people today? Don't want them to feel guilty about loving her?? Is there no accountability anymore? Sorry but she and your ex screwed up their lives, and yet they are protected for the kids sake? Too late for the kids sake, at least show your children that you do NOT accept or congratulate that behavior by acting like it's all 'normal'.
Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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ouch. Well I guess differing opinions is what makes the world go around. My children have a father and no matter how wrong he may have been he is still their dad and they see him every other weekend and every Wednesday night. I in no way want them to dread seeing him or dread being with her. What kind of life is that for a child? To grow up thinking their dad and stepmom is scum?
One of the first things one must do here in Massachusetts before getting a legal divorce is to take a class on parenting in this situation and the main thing drilled into us is not to drag the children into our drama. They did not ask to be brought into this situation and they should live as much of a normal life as possible. They are half their father, after all, and if they grow up thinking that their dad is a bad guy then they will think that of themselves to some extent. I'm not just spouting off my own theory here, this is what a few counselors have told me.
Obviously I don't congratulate his behavior or hers. Not like I call him up everyday saying, "hey you know when you were having sex with your wife while I was up at night doing the feedings? Good job honey!!!". My children know what happened now, though when they were little they were too young to comprehend it obviously at one and two years of age. They also know that mommy forgives daddy and his wife and that makes it easier for them to love them, as they should.
Posts: 1808 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by doodlebug: This is a tough one for me. My husband left me for another woman and is married to her today. I have had to suck up my feelings of hatred due to the fact that she is my kids' stepmom and they've known her since they were one and two years old. I don't want them to feel guilty about loving her, you know?
God bless you.
Posts: 374 | From: men gheir laff w dawaran | Registered: Sep 2007
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yes, doodlebug. Lots of courage. I think you deal with the whole situation in a very mature way. I don't think I would be so nice to "the other woman"... but ok, for the kids'sake it is probably better not to scratch her eyes out. I really hope you found your own happiness again.
Posts: 2932 | From: Just now and then | Registered: Nov 2006
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Doodlebug - I'm with you on this! I grew up knowing that my dad was living with another woman. Who I got on with without a problem, but it was really awkward when returning home and not knowing whether I should mention her name or not to my mother. This is because she never got mentioned, so we didn't know how to handle the situation as 10year olds.
It also became a problem at weddings and birthday partys as young adults - needing to include our step mother, but not wanting to upset our mum.
Good on you!
Posts: 836 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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I'm sorry but I disagree with you on this one. I've never been in this situation but I do have two children about the same age as doodlebug's children. I would've done the same. The children will know the truth in time but at their ages it's not necessary to get into the messy details. Children are innocent and when they love they love from their whole hearts, there's no need to pollute this now. When they're more mature and grown they can know what the truth is and can deal with it accordingly. I don't mean lie to them but coming out and telling them how everything went down is really not appropriate now. Being a child with divorced parents is hard enough on its own.
quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: I totally don't agree with that, let the kids know what kind of a person he married, don't let her off the hook and I would personally refuse to let my children be with somebody like that. What is it with people today? Don't want them to feel guilty about loving her?? Is there no accountability anymore? Sorry but she and your ex screwed up their lives, and yet they are protected for the kids sake? Too late for the kids sake, at least show your children that you do NOT accept or congratulate that behavior by acting like it's all 'normal'.
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DB, I didn't mean to get an ouch response from you, sorry. I was simply trying to convey that when a man cheats on his wife (and children) and takes the "other" woman to start a life with (don't get me started on this foolish behavior), I think it is wrong to hide it from the kids. I mean sure, if the children are VERY young, they wouldn't understand. But in this case why would I allow my children to be around and taught "morals" from a woman who brought heartache into their lives? Unfortunately the legal system in the states wouldn't see it that way and you wouldn't have much choice as far as child support and visitation went.
Thankfully these relationships rarely last when built upon infidelity but the damage is already done to the kids. Their families are broken, they feel inadequate and insecure and are taught that shacking up with the cheated woman while mom/dad stays jilted and smiles is normal. Gag.
Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: Thankfully these relationships rarely last when built upon infidelity but the damage is already done to the kids. Their families are broken, they feel inadequate and insecure and are taught that shacking up with the cheated woman while mom/dad stays jilted and smiles is normal. Gag.
That isn't strictly true though. As said above, I come from a broken home, and grew up going on holidays with my dad and his new partner. Never have I believed that this is right, nor normal. I have accepted it as my life, and got on with things.
And the reason that I did (and still do) spend time with somebody who my mum never approved of, is because she makes my dad happy, and is therefore part of his life. If I was incapable of accepting this, where would it leave my relationship with my father?
Posts: 836 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: ''Strange, my first reaction is always to blame the man...I have to force myself not to''
I agree with Smucker's initial reaction. To blame the other woman deflects attention from the most obvious party. At the most basic level, the man has a contract or commitment to his wife. The other woman hasn't broken the terms of that contract - the married man has. In the case of men, they should primarily blame their wife, not the other man involved. I am fortunate that I've never experienced the heartbreak of a partner cheating but some of my friends have. The ones who focused the blame squarely on their partner recovered more fully - perhaps because they didn't waste even more energy blaming two people.
Where there are children involved it is much more complex, especially when a spouse leaves to set up a life with the other person. I have admiration for those who make this work, for the sake of their innocent kids. To have to deal with two people who have hurt you, on a regular basis, must be a trial - especially as human instinct for most would be to never want to see them again.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by doodlebug: This is a tough one for me. My husband left me for another woman and is married to her today. I have had to suck up my feelings of hatred due to the fact that she is my kids' stepmom and they've known her since they were one and two years old. I don't want them to feel guilty about loving her, you know?
I think that's really very mature of you, and it must be alot of pressure to deal with that. I have a friend who grew up very sheltered with an amazing father and a stepmother, and she's from a somewhat very tightknit and overly critical culture (no she's not egyptian ) who had her mom leave the family and do what your exhusband did. She was pretty much sheltered her entire life from what her mother did, and her father raised her in an absolutely amazing way. When she was older and found out the truth (which came as a shock to everyone, her, me, etc), she had a newfound respect for her father for not letting his feelings get in the way of raising her and influencing her. I still see her dad as an amazing person, who's truly blessed to have such a daughter.
Posts: 483 | From: cairo | Registered: Mar 2006
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Why would you allow another woman to influence your children if she and your "husband" did not care about you and your family ( and your children ), how is it possible now for "them" to care for your children genuinly and raise them with good ethics, when they broke up the family in the 1st place?
Let me tell you this.
My child would not live in the same house with a woman who broke my family and a husband who "left/abanondend" me as his wife.
I would sell everything I own to legally fight and I would make this my life goal, and my family, brother, cousins and all friends and people I ever knew in my life, would support me in this.
I would take the child with me and let him live with whomever he wants. I would not tell my child anything bad about him, but my child would know when they grow up that one of the reasons why our life is/was without 100% full presence of the Dad was - HIS CHOICES IN HIS LIFE.
There are consequences for cheating and one of these are: when you cheat you lose your children.
Only then when he weighs potential gains and loss, he maybe then have a chance to change as he would see how much it costs to sleep with another woman behind his wife's back. How else would he learn otherwise?
He would have to ask for forgiveness, and apologize genuinly and to take 100% full responsibility before I would even consider talking about any 'relationship' after this point whatsoever.
My child could have another dad, not necessarily a sperm donor. I still believe my judgments when it comes to a man, and although I can't guarantee that a man would not cheat, I do guarantee that I would stand up for my beliefs and demand him to take 100% full responsibility for his actions, towards himself, others, me, kids, family, and world in general.
My life and my child's life would certainly be phenomenal weather or not he is with us, and he would be a loser at the end because I could always find another Dad, husband, lover, friend.
Posts: 1039 | Registered: Jun 2007
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It takes immense selflessness to do what Doodlebug has done, she must have been so torn, but put her childrens need for their father - despite what he had done to her, in front of her own anger - THAT is what makes good parents IMO. (I dont know how easy I would find this, but i would like to think i would try)
Men and women can be weak and make wrong decisions, I dont believe that this should prevent them seeing their children, o.k so in the moral department he and 'the other woman' didnt score many points here, but that doesnt mean they are evil people with no good qualities.
A lot of people make mistakes like this and that is real life, people are not perfect. Doodle bug is absolutely right to blame BOTH of them, I really do take my hat off to you Doodlebug for the way you have handled this situation, if there were more parents putting their kids first in this way, there would be more happy kids.
It would be very wrong to tell young children all the gorey details and even speak badly about the other parent, all that does is throw the kids bang smack in the middle and they end up with more problems, the kids would end up full of anger, resentment, bitterness, instability, torn between two parents they love and they just want everything to be o.k. Better just to be honest with them in terms of, 'mummy and daddy have decided not to be with each other anymore'.
Some men are just weak in the trouser department, that doesnt mean they are bad people, usually they are not even thinking about what they will lose. At the end of the day he will make his bed and lie in it, he has ended up with a woman with less morals and maturity than the mother of his children - I think that is punishment enough Posts: 644 | Registered: Jul 2007
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Why would you be concerned about cheating father and what impact his life choices has on him? He is adult. He knew consequences, did not he?
Posts: 1039 | Registered: Jun 2007
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I cant really understand your post lovingmylife - but if your asking why be concerned about a father who has cheated on his wife, the answer would be because he is your childrens father and he is a human being. Everyone makes mistakes, everyone has faults, no one is perfect and makes the right decisions all of the time.
I wouldnt be condoning what he did, and i wouldnt stay with him, but i would see it as a husband/wife decision, not a father/child one.
Posts: 644 | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Wanderer: It takes immense selflessness
To put the child to live in the same House with immoral father and his new lover is actullay bad idea.
You are depriving the child of being raised morally and in accord with moral values and beliefs thus this will totally ruin the child's sense of what's morally acceptable and what's not because children do seek approvals and see their mom and dad as role models.
Child could of have relationship with father after father apologize and accepts full reponsibility for his actions and choices in his life, but this in no means would mean that child would live in the same house with people who have no moral values, and see them as "role models".
If I were that child, I would be totally dissapointed if anyone would leave me in such arraingment.
Posts: 1039 | Registered: Jun 2007
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I can't believe I'm saying this but I agree with LML.
You ladies, for some reason, seem to think that it is YOUR burden to keep on protecting the children when you don't realize they're already scarred. It isn't exactly condoning what HE did as much as it is a lesson for your children, one the husband isn't able to teach because he's too busy proving to his OWN CHILDREN that they don't matter as much as the new piece of a** that he's shacking up with.
I'm not saying that allowing the children to have this 'other woman' as a step parent is going to severely mess them up, no....that isn't the point. The point is that I question STRONGLY her ability to teach them morality AND the message the children are going to get (perhaps in their subconscience) is that they come 2nd, a parent will leave you and mom for someone else, you aren't good enough, and MOM has to sit back and take it and smile and act like this is all normal and she condones what daddy did, and allows the other woman to move on in on the relationship you have all cultivated over the years.
Intellectually I could understand not wanting to screw the kids up more, protecting the kids, etc. I don't think that's a possibility. You're wanting to be the hero and you're using the child to hide behind what you don't want to face up to, which is the fact that our soceity doesn't permit for cheaters and marriage wreckers to be held accountable. Thus, the children witness it, see it as normal and grow up thinking, 'look how great I turned out'. How much better could they have been if Mom had sent that clear message that it ISN'T normal, it isn't acceptable and that she refuses her children to be raised by just anyone?
Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Wanderer: I cant really understand your post lovingmylife - but if your asking why be concerned about a father who has cheated on his wife, the answer would be because he is your childrens father and he is a human being. Everyone makes mistakes, everyone has faults, no one is perfect and makes the right decisions all of the time.
I wouldnt be condoning what he did, and i wouldnt stay with him, but i would see it as a husband/wife decision, not a father/child one.
Then you deserve to be cheated because you think you don't deserve any better.
If I were a man and you tell me this, I would not respect you because you see no difference and value between a faithful and responsible husband and cheating one.
It's not the same, thus why would you respond the same. People make mistakes but people TAKE RESPONSIBILITIES for mistakes.
A man must be reponsible for his choices and if you accept all, even when he brakes heart of your own child, without asking him to take 100% responsibility for his actions towards you, children, others and world, than I would question your state of mind if you see this as if he had done nothing.
Do you at least find people accountable for their actions? It's not condoning it's asking him to step up and fully acknowledge he made a mistake and take responsibility for his actions.
Posts: 1039 | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Wanderer: I cant really understand your post lovingmylife - but if your asking why be concerned about a father who has cheated on his wife, the answer would be because he is your childrens father and he is a human being. Everyone makes mistakes, everyone has faults, no one is perfect and makes the right decisions all of the time.
I wouldnt be condoning what he did, and i wouldnt stay with him, but i would see it as a husband/wife decision, not a father/child one.
Then you deserve to be cheated because you think you don't deserve any better.
If I were a man and you tell me this, I would not respect you because you see no difference and value between a faithful and responsible husband and cheating one.
It's not the same, thus why would you respond the same. People make mistakes but people TAKE RESPONSIBILITIES for mistakes.
A man must be reponsible for his choices and if you accept all, even when he brakes heart of your own child, without asking him to take 100% responsibility for his actions towards you, children, others and world, than I would question your state of mind if you see this as if he had done nothing.
Do you at least find people accountable for their actions? It's not condoning it's asking him to step up and fully acknowledge he made a mistake and take responsibility for his actions.
LML, I wish you would express your feelings in a less 'harsh' way! The TONE of your posts are sometimes so so insensitive! Thank you.
Posts: 919 | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Wanderer: I cant really understand your post lovingmylife - but if your asking why be concerned about a father who has cheated on his wife, the answer would be because he is your childrens father and he is a human being. Everyone makes mistakes, everyone has faults, no one is perfect and makes the right decisions all of the time.
I wouldnt be condoning what he did, and i wouldnt stay with him, but i would see it as a husband/wife decision, not a father/child one.
Then you deserve to be cheated because you think you don't deserve any better.
If I were a man and you tell me this, I would not respect you because you see no difference and value between a faithful and responsible husband and cheating one.
It's not the same, thus why would you respond the same. People make mistakes but people TAKE RESPONSIBILITIES for mistakes.
A man must be reponsible for his choices and if you accept all, even when he brakes heart of your own child, without asking him to take 100% responsibility for his actions towards you, children, others and world, than I would question your state of mind if you see this as if he had done nothing.
Do you at least find people accountable for their actions? It's not condoning it's asking him to step up and fully acknowledge he made a mistake and take responsibility for his actions.
I agree with Almaz, your tone is way out of line. Nobody deserves to be cheated on and just because she tells her husband how she feels doesn't mean he's going to cheat on her and marry the other woman. THAT is a character issue, don't put it on the INNOCENT one who gets cheated on.
Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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did i say that I didnt think he should take any responsibility? er no...
Taking responsibility does not mean refusing for the children to have anything to do with their father, who exactly are you punishing?
"If I were a man and you tell me this, I would not respect you because you see no difference and value between a faithful and responsible husband and cheating one"
Another stupid statement, of course i see a difference, did i not say that I would not STAY with a man who cheated??
"People make mistakes but people TAKE RESPONSIBILITIES for mistakes." And it is for you to judge him on his mistake is it? it is your job to decide for those children that his mistake meant he shouldnt see them anymore?
I am beginning to wonder whether you think you have ever made a mistake, what is it like up there in your ivory tower, mind you dont fall!
LML, please add me to your ignore list.
SMUCKERS
"and MOM has to sit back and take it and smile and act like this is all normal and she condones what daddy did"
no, mum doesn't have to sit back and smile, but moving on and accepting that its not all about her and him is something she can do.
people that make a bad moral decision in one area of life eg. relationships, does not mean that they are morally wrong in all areas.
Posts: 644 | Registered: Jul 2007
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"and MOM has to sit back and take it and smile and act like this is all normal and she condones what daddy did"
no, mum doesn't have to sit back and smile, but moving on and accepting that its not all about her and him is something she can do.
people that make a bad moral decision in one area of life eg. relationships, does not mean that they are morally wrong in all areas.
True, it isn't about HER it's about her children. Of course the other womans moral mistakes can be viewed as an OOPS bad moral decision, but it is the actions of the husband/father that make it inexcuseable. I'm not suggesting to keep the children from seeing their father, that is their right. My issue is solely with the other woman that is to become their step mother....repulsive IMO.
Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Almaz.: LML, I wish you would express your feelings in a less 'harsh' way! The TONE of your posts are sometimes so so insensitive! Thank you.
Almaz, You like people to baby you all the time.
Read between the lines. I simply said that - if you tell a man, what she told me, he would take it as if she saying cheating is ok because people make mistakes.
Thus with such ideas, she attracts cheating men.
I know what she said, she said she would not be with such man, but she would be concerned about effects his cheating had on him,( even if he was the one who cheated and chose this in the 1st place ) based on the fact that he is "child's dad".
So in my opinion I see no accountability here, thus man hears - GREEN LIGHT HERE.
He sees no consequences.
Why do we have laws, regulations and policies?
Because if we don't people would do whatever they want.
It's not about "love, love". It's about principals. You as a woman don't accept cheating and if he does it, he will be suffering consequences, let him think on his own what that means. Posts: 1039 | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers:
quote: SMUCKERS
"and MOM has to sit back and take it and smile and act like this is all normal and she condones what daddy did"
no, mum doesn't have to sit back and smile, but moving on and accepting that its not all about her and him is something she can do.
people that make a bad moral decision in one area of life eg. relationships, does not mean that they are morally wrong in all areas.
True, it isn't about HER it's about her children. Of course the other womans moral mistakes can be viewed as an OOPS bad moral decision, but it is the actions of the husband/father that make it inexcuseable. I'm not suggesting to keep the children from seeing their father, that is their right. My issue is solely with the other woman that is to become their step mother....repulsive IMO.
Of course it isn't nice, but once a mum and dad split up, the ex wife is in no position to control who the man shacks up with, that is his life and his responsibility as a father, as women we cannot control that. If you do try to control who he is with by restricting access to his kids then all the kids will learn is that YOU have a problem with HIM. They will not thank you for it.
of course you have to restrict access when it comes to dangers, i.e drugs or abuse, but making bad moral judgements in one instance regarding their father is not emotional abuse or neglect, where would you draw the line?
Posts: 644 | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Almaz.: LML, I wish you would express your feelings in a less 'harsh' way! The TONE of your posts are sometimes so so insensitive! Thank you.
Almaz, You like people to baby you all the time.
Read between the lines. I simply said that - if you tell a man, what she told me, he would take it as if she saying cheating is ok because people make mistakes.
Thus with such ideas, she attracts cheating men.
I know what she said, she said she would not be with such man, but she would be concerned about effects ( his cheating had on him and family ),( even if he was the one who cheated and chose this in the 1st place ) based on the fact that he is "child's dad".
So in my opinion I see no accountability here, thus man hear - GREEN LIGHT HERE.
He sees no consequences.
Why do we have laws, regulations and policies?
Because if we don't people would do whatever they want.
It's not about "love, love". It's about principals. You as a woman don't accept cheating and if he does it, he will be suffering consequences, let him think on his own what that means.
No LML I don't like people to 'baby' me all the time. I like people to respect each other and not underestimate people's intelligence. I like to see that 'intelligent' people like you get credit, but when they have a very insensitive tone, and throw commands, judgements and stones around them, I feel it blinds everyone else to 'read between the lines' of their intelligence!
You have some extremely valid comments, in my opinion, on different subjects, but I have to read them many times to get 'pass' the extremely harsh tone.
I know you are a very good person, but you make it difficult on us to appreciate it.
YOU MAY SAY YOU DON'T CARE, but if that was true why do you contribute here?
Posts: 919 | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Almaz.: LML, I wish you would express your feelings in a less 'harsh' way! The TONE of your posts are sometimes so so insensitive! Thank you.
Almaz, You like people to baby you all the time.
Read between the lines. I simply said that - if you tell a man, what she told me, he would take it as if she saying cheating is ok because people make mistakes.
Thus with such ideas, she attracts cheating men.
I know what she said, she said she would not be with such man, but she would be concerned about effects his cheating had on him,( even if he was the one who cheated and chose this in the 1st place ) based on the fact that he is "child's dad".
So in my opinion I see no accountability here, thus man hears - GREEN LIGHT HERE.
He sees no consequences.
Why do we have laws, regulations and policies?
Because if we don't people would do whatever they want.
It's not about "love, love". It's about principals. You as a woman don't accept cheating and if he does it, he will be suffering consequences, let him think on his own what that means.
LML, it is my opinion that you lose in your arguments because you are unable to express yourself without being too rough. It doesn't have anything to do with someone wanting to be 'babied'. We are all talking about 'what if' here, not something that actually happened. I would guess it is your lack of understanding of English but your English seems to be that of someone of native origin so I can't guess that is it. You need to look up the word TACT, it is the ability to convey your feelings without hurting the other person. You are not very good with this from what I have seen. You can't make someone listen to your point of view when all they see are your insults and rude comments.
Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers:
quote: SMUCKERS
"and MOM has to sit back and take it and smile and act like this is all normal and she condones what daddy did"
no, mum doesn't have to sit back and smile, but moving on and accepting that its not all about her and him is something she can do.
people that make a bad moral decision in one area of life eg. relationships, does not mean that they are morally wrong in all areas.
True, it isn't about HER it's about her children. Of course the other womans moral mistakes can be viewed as an OOPS bad moral decision, but it is the actions of the husband/father that make it inexcuseable. I'm not suggesting to keep the children from seeing their father, that is their right. My issue is solely with the other woman that is to become their step mother....repulsive IMO.
Of course it isn't nice, but once a mum and dad split up, the ex wife is in no position to control who the man shacks up with, that is his life and his responsibility as a father, as women we cannot control that. If you do try to control who he is with by restricting access to his kids then all the kids will learn is that YOU have a problem with HIM. They will not thank you for it.
of course you have to restrict access when it comes to dangers, i.e drugs or abuse, but making bad moral judgements in one instance regarding their father is not emotional abuse or neglect, where would you draw the line?
I draw the line at the woman who broke up our family and tore my childrens lives in half.
But, we can agree to disagree. I am used to not having many who agree with me in this issue, it's a difficult and sensitive subject, I know. Salaam. Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Its ok Smuckers, I dont take offense at your comments. The way I see it is:
I would not blame the woman MORE than the man, they are both equally to blame, so i guess i dont see it as 'she broke up the family' but more 'they broke up the family' in fact, I would be more angry at him.
not saying I would like her, or him, OR find the situation easy AT ALL, I would have to constantly refrain from slapping them both - but I feel I would have to try and be distant from my emotions towards them, if that makes any sense.
Posts: 644 | Registered: Jul 2007
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The title of this thread is... Why do we blame the other woman when a man strays?
I might be wrong here but no on has mentioned 'why the man might stray' More often than not the relationship has broken down for one reason or another....very often through lack of communication...BEFORE the other woman appears.
So I think it is wrong to always blame 'the other woman' all the time Remember it takes two to tango, and to make a relationship
Don't get me wrong I have been down the road where the other woman has shown her face. But once you sit down and trace back how the original relationship had been developing there will be signs that all was not well..... Posts: 643 | From: Over there | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Wanderer: Its ok Smuckers, I dont take offense at your comments. The way I see it is:
I would not blame the woman MORE than the man, they are both equally to blame, so i guess i dont see it as 'she broke up the family' but more 'they broke up the family' in fact, I would be more angry at him.
not saying I would like her, or him, OR find the situation easy AT ALL, I would have to constantly refrain from slapping them both - but I feel I would have to try and be distant from my emotions towards them, if that makes any sense.
One of my good friends was telling me that when she discovered her husband was cheating on her, she packed his things and sent them to his mom's and changed the locks. That was the end of that.
The children visiting the dad and the rest of the negotiations were done through the parents. She never even said a word to him again ( been 3 years now). And they were deeply in love at one point! Sad. I would act the same in this situation.
Posts: 919 | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Wanderer: Its ok Smuckers, I dont take offense at your comments. The way I see it is:
I would not blame the woman MORE than the man, they are both equally to blame, so i guess i dont see it as 'she broke up the family' but more 'they broke up the family' in fact, I would be more angry at him.
not saying I would like her, or him, OR find the situation easy AT ALL, I would have to constantly refrain from slapping them both - but I feel I would have to try and be distant from my emotions towards them, if that makes any sense.
posted
Have I missed something, but I can't find anywhere, people talking about the child living with the cheating party and his new partner - but being in good contact with their parent.
quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: Thus, the children witness it, see it as normal and grow up thinking, 'look how great I turned out'. How much better could they have been if Mom had sent that clear message that it ISN'T normal, it isn't acceptable and that she refuses her children to be raised by just anyone?
I have said this before, and I will say it again - I think this is sooooo untrue. Because a child is exposed to a cheating parent, does not make them think it is ok to cheat, or that it is normal. If handled correctly and taught about the situation by both parents, an understanding can be formed, and the child can grow with good morals and principals.
I was a relatively young child when my situation arose, but never ever would I cheat on someone - nor would I remain in a relationship with someone who had cheated on me.
Give the kids some credit! Posts: 836 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Wanderer: Its ok Smuckers, I dont take offense at your comments. The way I see it is:
I would not blame the woman MORE than the man, they are both equally to blame, so i guess i dont see it as 'she broke up the family' but more 'they broke up the family' in fact, I would be more angry at him.
not saying I would like her, or him, OR find the situation easy AT ALL, I would have to constantly refrain from slapping them both - but I feel I would have to try and be distant from my emotions towards them, if that makes any sense.
One of my good friends was telling me that when she discovered her husband was cheating on her, she packed his things and sent them to his mom's and changed the locks. That was the end of that.
The children visiting the dad and the rest of the negotiations were done through the parents. She never even said a word to him again ( been 3 years now). And they were deeply in love at one point! Sad. I would act the same in this situation.
It is sad, because I just think that life is too short for this, As pink cherry said. If the relationship was meant to be then I dont believe these things would happen.
I have also known women that have carried around the bitterness forever, and stopped their child seeing their father. Even when they are displaying so much anger about the father, then saying to the child 'your just like your father' and 'he's a S**T' etc. Its so upsetting to watch people carry around so much anger and resentment. What usually happens is the children grow up and make up their own mind, they need to get to know their father, warts and all, and womens lives can continue without being with someone they cant trust.
I agree Soozi - and also, it DOES make a difference whether the 'cheater' is a serial cheater or this is a one time thing.
I had another friend who's dad had an affair, he and her mum split up and the daughter didnt speak to her dad for years. The dad and the 'other woman' went on to marry and stayed together for twenty years or so. The daughter (my friend) got back in touch with her dad a few years ago, started seeing him again, now that she is an adult.
Then he died suddenly in a car accident - she missed all those years Posts: 644 | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
I give children NO credit, they are children otherwise let's let them raise themselves.
I do believe the topic changed a bit to what happens if the cheating man marries the woman he cheated with. I'm not sure how.
Anyway, we're not all going to agree here. My father married another, not anyone he cheated with, and my mother and step mother got along very well and were even (dare I say?) friends. No two situations are alike, I guess it just boils down to what you're willing to put up with. That being said, I'm off to make a sandwich. Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: I give children NO credit, they are children otherwise let's let them raise themselves.
I dont mean to interrupt your sandwich, but maybe this is what divides us in our thinking. I agree that children need decisions made for them, but to an extent. I think we need to encourage independant thought and reasoning and this cannot happen until we step back and allow them to experience life themselves, without making all their decisions for them Posts: 644 | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Almaz.: No LML I don't like people to 'baby' me all the time.
Actually you do. Do you think that "all your views" on different topic are very sensitive? I have read tons of things you wrote and found myself million times in shock. Have I ever told you how harsh you were when you said that Egyptian women who asked personal questions were "uncivillized and of low class" while when some western woman asked a girl if she slept with her SO you said nothing.
I am not here to please and baby you. You got to find a man to do that, I am a woman who speaks her mind and I do so just like everyone else. Now don't tell me that you haven't noticed how many times your friends used bad words towards me and interestingly you haven't mentioned anything about - respect.
So in conclusion, you have double standards. One for me & people you disagree, and other for your friends and people you agree with. Now when I realized how double standard are you, I think you are now on my ignore list.
Posts: 1039 | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Wanderer: ''Of course it isn't nice, but once a mum and dad split up, the ex wife is in no position to control who the man shacks up with, that is his life and his responsibility as a father, as women we cannot control that.of course you have to restrict access when it comes to dangers, i.e drugs or abuse, but making bad moral judgements in one instance regarding their father is not emotional abuse or neglect, where would you draw the line? ''
From a practical point of view, Wanderer is absolutely correct. In a modern world, an ex-wife would have no right to try to control her ex husband's current relationship (and neither should she have). Providing there are no abnormal circumstances, people have to be allowed to get on with their lives and include their children as they see fit.
Life would be so much easier if people put the blame squarely where it belongs. If your partner cheats - blame them - not the other person involved. People aren't possessions to be 'stolen'. They give themselves away because they want to.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: I give children NO credit, they are children otherwise let's let them raise themselves.
I dont mean to interrupt your sandwich, but maybe this is what divides us in our thinking. I agree that children need decisions made for them, but to an extent. I think we need to encourage independant thought and reasoning and this cannot happen until we step back and allow them to experience life themselves, without making all their decisions for them
I had to put my sandwich down. I absolutely encourage free thinking, independent thought, but in the case of morality the children learn from example and from lessons taught. I certainly hope you don't intend to let your children 'find their own way' as it relates to this. Ok, going back to my sandwich.
Ok I really am finished with this subject. Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Almaz.: No LML I don't like people to 'baby' me all the time.
Actually you do. Do you think that "all your views" on different topic are very sensitive? I have read tons of things you wrote and found myself million times in shock. Have I ever told you how harsh you were when you said that Egyptian women who asked personal questions were "uncivillized and of low class" while when some western woman asked a girl if she slept with her SO you said nothing.
I am not here to please and baby you. You got to find a man to do that, I am a woman who speaks her mind and I do so just like everyone else. Now don't tell me that you haven't noticed how many times your friends used bad words towards me and interestingly you haven't mentioned anything about - respect.
So in conclusion, you have double standards. One for me & people you disagree, and other for your friends and people you agree with. Now when I realized how double standard are you, I think you are now on my ignore list.
quote:Originally posted by Wanderer: Its ok Smuckers, I dont take offense at your comments. The way I see it is:
I would not blame the woman MORE than the man, they are both equally to blame, so i guess i dont see it as 'she broke up the family' but more 'they broke up the family' in fact, I would be more angry at him.
not saying I would like her, or him, OR find the situation easy AT ALL, I would have to constantly refrain from slapping them both - but I feel I would have to try and be distant from my emotions towards them, if that makes any sense.
One of my good friends was telling me that when she discovered her husband was cheating on her, she packed his things and sent them to his mom's and changed the locks. That was the end of that.
The children visiting the dad and the rest of the negotiations were done through the parents. She never even said a word to him again ( been 3 years now). And they were deeply in love at one point! Sad. I would act the same in this situation.
Sometimes women can be very creative in their acts of revenge. I think every situation is different, and nobody can predict what he/she should do if his/her partner should cheat... Its the same as thinking what you should you when there should be a burglar in your house, while your sleeping. Or when you should be witnissing an act of crime. Almost everybody is acting in another way as he/she thought he/she should... Your friend refused to talk to her ex since that day. Her children are expierencing a wrong example of how a relationship must be.In fact they get no example at all anymore. I don`t know if that will be good for them...
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
I agree with you ?????, to cut off all contact completely does only hurt the children. The woman is obviously hurt and it makes the children to suffer, not necessarily the man. You married him once, you have to keep contact no matter what (ok unless he murders or rapes someone).
Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: You need to look up the word TACT, it is the ability to convey your feelings without hurting the other person. You are not very good with this from what I have seen.
In order for me to have more tact ( like you ) should I say how stupid this comment is, because that's what you wrote to me in more than 1 occasion calling me bad names and you have never apologized.
I put you on ignore list prior in the past, and you without any apology just kept talking to me. Now you tell me I don't have a tact? I speak to each person accordingly.
Now, you may continue with your comments, I put you back to ignore. You are invisible and don't deserve my attention from this point on.
Posts: 1039 | Registered: Jun 2007
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How much better could they have been if Mom had sent that clear message that it ISN'T normal, it isn't acceptable and that she refuses her children to be raised by just anyone?
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I am used to not having many who agree with me in this issue, it's a difficult and sensitive subject, I know. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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