posted
O.K, I decided to post this here in response to the thread in Living in Egypt section about children being hit in some schools by some teachers.
Many people have stated ho children are often hit by their parents in Egypt. I too have witnessed this and know Egyptians whose parenting style is very different to mine.
So this is why I post here. Many people marry Egyptian men, some of these people have children.
If parenting styles are different culturally, how do you think this may affect your relationship?
I have seen parents bully their children and hit their children, even people who are very religious. Often the same Egyptian people will feel that I am too soft on my child, perhaps because I prefer to talk rather than hit or bully.
To me I am right and my way is right, to them their way is right...
Some people in my country also think it has gone too far, and children now have more rights than parents. This I also agree with. Parents here want to retain the right to smack their children, the trouble is, a smack by one person is very different to a smack by another. Banning smacking is seen as too controlling by the Government who many people feel is turning into Big Brother.
Of course we can sit and discuss and agree on ways to parent a child before its born, but in reality, its very hard to change cultural practices, and whose going to change? What if someone says they will change, tries your ways and doesnt think they work?
So... what do people here think?
Posts: 552 | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
I think you just have to look at the different ways in which children act in front of parents and authority, between the kids of Cairo or Alex, to the kids in say London or Manchester.
I remember being late for assembly one day at school, instead of going in late I crept upstairs to my class and sat down and opened my books. One teachers caught me and sent me to the head. I sat in torture for about an hour, told to come back after lunch, so my fate was still in the balance. I was by them shitting myself. The very thought of the 'strap' terrified me.
You can bet I never was late for assembly again
Problem is that children know there is no punishment, so there are no boundaries. If a clip around the ear of a Cairo kid here stops him from disrespecting his teacher or mother, then the very threat of it will stop him doing it again.
Posts: 3416 | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
I don't think it is a cultural practice. When you are going 100 years back in time, you would be able to see parents hitting children too. I think it is partly to blame on the intellectual level of parents, because when you are raised up in an enviroment that states it is wrong to use violence against others, and explain them why, then it becomes a sort of universal knowledge. In Western societies, during the last century, there have been numbers of scientific researches working on subjects that have to do with the psychlogy of the humend mind. There are specialists in every field, from the very little children untill, for instance, addiction specialists for adults. Even a tennistrainers learns social pedagogical assististance here, and there are numbers of trainings that are aimed at children, parents, teachers etc. So, in a society that has highly classified knowledge as a standard, people will go along with children in another way. Still here, there are husbands who are using voilence against their wifes, parents who do so against their children. They know it's wrong and unaccepted, but it has to do with power, they want to dominate the other.
Domestic violence takes place in all socio-economic classes and within all cultures. Women and children are the most likely victims but men, parents and elderly people also fall victim to this type of violence. (children against parents)
Treatment has to be possible for not only the victims, but also for the perpetrators. Forensic psychiatry has to be involved in order to give treatment and corrective help.
Government and professional organisations must jointly express the message that domestic violence is unacceptable and cannot be justified by any kind of excuse. The message can be expressed in various ways. It has to be clear that domestic voilence is unacceptable.
The victims have to be protected by law, and the perpetrators have to be isolated from the victims, so that there will be no acces to them again.
It looks like this is a rare phenomene in Western societues, but for instance, in Australia 23% of the women has faced domestic voilence. Young women are more at risk as older women, and it is a learned behaviour; children who have witnissed domestic violence will go on to become abusers themselves.
Violence is a choice, so change is possible. When abusers blame their parents they don't take responsebility for themselves. Most of the abusers are only violent against their partner and children, and not against everybody around. So, it is a choice. They choosed who to hurt,when to hurt and how to hurt. It's not about losing controll but about getting controll over a person or a situation. They want to get them their way, to make someone to do something,or to stop them to do something or to punish them.
There are many forms of domestic violence, intimidation, verbal, psychical, emotional, social, economic, sexual abuse, are at least as bad as hitting.
You cant's discuss that at the beginning of a relationship, because this behaviour doesn't exist at that time. It shows up when the relationship is steady....
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
SPS - You say that the threat of violence would stop you, that a clip round the ear is ok? But that same clip round the ear could cause a child brain damage?
And does, often when children are hit, or killed, the person doing the hitting didnt intend to kill them. Not to mention the effect on their self esteem?
Violence always escolates, if you hit a child because they do something wrong, they dont learn the correct behaviour by that hit? they dont understand WHY what they did was wrong? all they learn is that if you repeat that certain action again, you get hit by people (people that are suposed to care about you).
So the child doesn't learn to transfer knowledge to other situations, because they dont even understand the one situation they have just been hit for?
The child learns that people that care can also hurt you, and this is acceptable.
And the child learns that when people dont do as you want them to, hit them.
????? - While I understand that hitting of children within the home could come under 'domestic violence' I was hoping we could try and stick to just the topic of disciplining children, as we could end up going off on a tangent if we talk about men and womens relationships.
Lets also remember that its not Egyptian men only that may think its ok to hit children, women too do this (as they do in other societies).
Maybe you think its not any different, maybe you and your partner (one egy, one non egy) think the same about discipline?
Posts: 552 | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by ?????: There are many forms of domestic violence, intimidation, verbal, psychical, emotional, social, economic, sexual abuse, are at least as bad as hitting.
You cant's discuss that at the beginning of a relationship, because this behaviour doesn't exist at that time. It shows up when the relationship is steady....
Ok, Taking this and applying it to the context of the thread, rather than on domestic violence, as such. Yes I agree with you.
These are also aspects that many people use to PARENT their children 'intimidation' whether by size or shouting, 'bullying' emotionally and physically, 'name calling' in an attempt to get a child to see they have done something wrong, perhaps calling them 'stupid'...
MANY people use these methods to parent their kids, do they realise the effects?
Effects of dominating, aggressive and overly controling parenting affect the child for life, into adulthood. Affect their former relationships, how they relate to people, how they feel about themselves, their confidence, what kind of partner they chose, how they parent their own children.
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posted
Their confedence... people who are tended to keep controll, are not confedent at all. It's a sign that they are not able to handle the situation, and they need to use power to make people do what they want. The best way to make people do what you want, is to make them understand why it is needed, and not by forcing the to do what you want. I can use many forms of force to 'discipline' children, and it will work as long as I am able to use power. But the result will be that I 'squeeze' people into a framework that is to narrow. They will struggle to get out, because they feel suffocated. They need to understand that I want them to act in a certain way, in order to reach a certain point that is good for them, or for both, depends on the situation.
Grown up people who are able to face a situation, are confedent because they rely on themselves. They know that they are behaving in a certain way and they take responsebility for that. Adults who are not confedent, are not able to handle situations, and they are using power to keep everything under controll. They are not taking responsebility for the results of their acts, they will blame other for what they did themselves, and they are afraid.... afraid to lose controll.
I think its uncertainty and fear....
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
It is totally socially unacceptable for a man to hit a woman, no matter what she is doing. So why on earth should it be ok to hit a child, someone much smaller and weaker than yourself? Ask any parents who smack their kids, have they only needed to do it the once? You will find the answer to be no, which shows smacking works no better than other disciplines. People hit when they have lost control, it isn't about discipline, it is just a reaction. And if you let those kind of reactions be commonplace, how do you know one day you don't hit a bit too hard? I personally think the only time violence should ever be acceptable is in self defence. Any other time, there is always a better method.
I haven’t actually asked Sam about this. I’ve always imagined any future children, and their discipline, to be my responsibility. Hmm, that will be an interesting conversation.
-------------------- Another one.... Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by weirdkitty: It is totally socially unacceptable for a man to hit a woman, no matter what she is doing. So why on earth should it be ok to hit a child, someone much smaller and weaker than yourself? Ask any parents who smack their kids, have they only needed to do it the once? You will find the answer to be no, which shows smacking works no better than other disciplines. People hit when they have lost control, it isn't about discipline, it is just a reaction. And if you let those kind of reactions be commonplace, how do you know one day you don't hit a bit too hard? I personally think the only time violence should ever be acceptable is in self defence. Any other time, there is always a better method.
I haven’t actually asked Sam about this. I’ve always imagined any future children, and their discipline, to be my responsibility. Hmm, that will be an interesting conversation.
IT is defenitly NOT about loosing control.It is an aware choice to which ones they would hit and which ones they wouldn't. People who are using violence to get what they want, only are using violence against the ones that indeed are weaker, and not against the ones who are stronger or more powerful.So, they MAKE this choice themselves! It is an inability in social skills, and a sign of uncertainty.
When people are sincere, honest,confedent and social skilled enough, they don't need the use of violence or other forms of abuse.
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About spanking: Since 1995 when this website was founded, spanking has become a high-profile controversy in North America.
Conservatives Protestants have become the main supporters of corporal punishment of children, probably because of their belief in the inerrancy of the Bible, and the frequent advocacy in the book of Proverbs of spanking as the preferred method to discipline children. Many feel that abandoning spanking will leave their children undisciplined and lead to increased lawlessness and violence in society as those children reach adulthood. Most child psychologists, religious liberals, secularists, and others now oppose spanking. Children are probably not too keen on it either. From their reactions, it is obvious that they regard spanking as a terrorist act. The trend in North American culture seems to be to abandon spanking in favor of other methods of child discipline, except among the conservative Protestant community. Studied conducted over many decades have shown that even a minor amount off spanking increases the likelihood of children growing up into adults with problems of alcoholism, drug abuse, anxiety and depression.
The use of the word "spanking" to refer to the discipline of children appears to be largely a North American term. In Britain, it is generally called "smacking; the word "spanking" often has sexual overtones.
Status of corporal punishment: Corporal punishment in schools was/is:
Banned in Taiwan in 2006-DEC. This became became the 109th country to ban all school corporal punishment. Banned in all 175 Catholic Diocesan School Systems in the U.S., according to a survey by the National Coalition to Abolish Corporal Punishment in Schools. Banned in 28 states of the U.S. Is legal in Utah with the permission of a parent or guardian. However. it is not widely practiced in the state. Most school districts there have a formal ban in place. Still permitted in some public and private schools in the U.S. Becoming more popular in Kentucky.
Spanking generally is:
About to be banned in South Africa. The government passed the Children's Amendment Bill in 2007-JUN over the opposition of some conservative religious groups. If signed into law, it would remove parents right to use the defence of "reasonable chastisement" in court. Promoted by many conservative Protestant leaders and organizations. Opposed by the American Academy of Pediatrics and many other professional associations. Prone to being escalated to a lethal level. The Department of Health and Human Services and the New England Journal of Medicine estimate that 1,000 to 2,000 children die every year in the U.S. from corporal punishment that has gotten out of control. They estimate that 142,000 are seriously injured annually. 1
Our group's opinions and biases: We feel that the debate corporal punishment of children is one of the most important, current, religiously-based, conflicts in North America. In the past, studies into spanking have been inconclusive. Those researchers who initially opposed spanking generally found that it was dangerous and ineffective. Those who initially supported spanking typically found that it was safe and effective. This is fairly common in such studies: the researchers' original opinions tend to be confirmed by the data that they collect. However, recent, longitudinal and objective studies in Ontario, Canada, New Zealand, and elsewhere definitely show that even moderate spanking can have devastating results for a minority of children -- particularly males -- that only become obvious after they reach adulthood. We suspect that when the results of some of these large, long-term behavioral studies become generally known, that many parents will stop spanking their children. The stakes are extremely high: If corporal punishment advocates are correct, then the abandonment of spanking will significantly increase violence and criminal activity by the next generation of adults. If corporal punishment opponents are correct, then the abandonment of spanking will greatly decrease adult violence, mental illness, addiction, and criminal activity.
Topics in this section: Introduction to spanking: (Please read this first) The issue Current legal status Countries that have banned corporal punishment
Quotations on spanking
Pro-spanking advocates Spanking, as mentioned in the Bible What, exactly, is the "rod" mentioned in the Bible? Is the bible ambiguous about spanking?
Recommendations by pro-spanking advocates Recommendations by Michael and Debi Pearl
"Hot saucing" a traditional way to punish children
Anti-spanking advocates The case against spanking; Anti-spanking references; UN convention Open letter to President Clinton from agencies concerned with children United Methodist Church's resolutions on spanking American Academy of Pediatrics' position on spanking How parents can weaning themselves off of spanking their kids Linkage between severe corporal punishment and both crime and rage "Spare the Rod:" an essay by Riane Eisler describing partnership and dominator cultural models
Studies of the effects of spanking: Summaries Results of studies 1985 to 1995, including one remarkable comparison Results of studies, 1996 to 2006, including one of overwhelming importance
Print a form to ask that your child be exempted from corporal punishment at school
Spanking in Canada: Background Events: 1980 to 1999 Events: 2000 to now Decision of the Supreme Court of Canada, 2004
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
I firmly believe in whipping a child's azz. I don't agree with teacher spanking the child, but I do believe they have the right to chastise children by other means. I don't think I would slap a child across the face but spankings on the azz, legs, or even the hands will do. Talking is not always effective. The hughest problem is adults don't know when to be discern. When do you talk to the child; when do you spank the child; or when do you do both.
Posts: 2088 | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
there was another thread like this ages ago, turned into all out war as people have such different views
I agree it is a problem as one persons tap/slap/spank/hit is not the same as another although this may have now been defined legally.
I am a believer in teaching a child early and not introducing new 'rules' when they are 'old enough' to understand what you 'explain' verbally to them. No I dont beat babies
Example: When my kids were very young, early walking and into everything, a firm NO was for touching things they shouldnt etc, this works for a while until they get to the 'test the parents' stage at about 18 months and NO will be ignored and 'pushed', then I would say NO while moving the little hand away, this goes on till the child gets the message usually while crying and having a tantrum because he/she is not allowed to play with the matches or put his/her hand on the fire or shatter your best antiques. If this continued then a light tap on the hand, but one they can feel.
I have a friend whose children have no discipline whatsoever as she thinks they are too young. The 1 yr old insists on diving into everyones bags and throwing phones till they break, emptying ashtray, emptying purses and wallets, eating important papers, anything he can possibly get his hands on and mum just cleans up after him. His older bro of 6 has already set fire to the house, hides matches in a safe place for later, runs off all over the village, climbs on boats, fills the kettle with milk, totally trashes everything and wont take ANY discipline as its now too late to introduce any 'new rules'.
My kids when they were young knew it was not socially acceptable to go touching ornaments or anything else in someone elses house as they didnt do it in their own. These kids see it as a new challenge in someone elses house.
I rarely had to smack my kids as they learnt very young that there was discipline and some things are not allowed. I was raised the same and I can count on 1 hand the amount of real smacks I had as a kid and I always deserved it.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
giving a swat isn't the same thing as a beating.
My mother only had to threaten a swat to get me to stop doing whatever it was that i was doing.
I hate going to somewhere like the airport, and seeing some child screaming and kicking on the floor, biting, telling their mom to "shut up", and the mother is either ignoring the child (yeah, that works) or, shes wagging her finger, telling the child to stop, or to behave...
very effective.
Posts: 1967 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
Hibbah, he is probably doing that, because at home she 'swats' him, and out in the open she doesnt want to so of course he carries on.
Ignoring DOES work, if its done properly, some children are more stubborn than others but if children are rewarded for good behaviour early enough then it works.
The majority of children WANT to be good, they WANT to get your attention, with practice, its easy to ignore the childs bad behaviour (not the child) and distract on to something else which you could then quickly reward.
Children are little lab rats really, they will want to repeat behaviours that show you like them and think they are good people.
The screaming child in the middle of the aisle is screaming for attention, the mum just has to be clever and work out how she can turn the situation around. Giving him a clip round the ear will just postpone the behaviour until later, and it will probably be worse. That is more than likely how he got to screaming in the aisle in the first place.
Perhaps next time the mum goes shopping she can give the child little jobs to do, so they feel involved...then she can reward the child after a shopping trip with a sticker, or maybe playing a game together. Simple but effective, and children learn how to behave socially, they learn that we can all help each other and it feels good, and life is not a power struggle...and the most important one...people that love us, dont hurt us.
Posts: 552 | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:I don't think I would slap a child across the face but spankings on the azz, legs, or even the hands will do. Talking is not always effective
Sometimes talking isn't effective with adults, should I go around hitting them too? Or can we only beat on those much smaller and weaker than us?
That is the million dollar question. In Egypt they do that, look around at how many street fights there are daily AMONG ADULTS. Parents in Egypt think its good that their sons beat up another kid because it means he is tough and can take care of himself. Disagreement in the street? Bring swords, pipes or rocks, it's a pow wow. It is a fundamental mentality in the culture that physical aggressiveness is the norm at home at school in the street in the daycare. Its epidemic.
Posts: 39 | Registered: Oct 2008
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posted
It is, but I have to note that this is a rural area behaviour, and there are also 'rules' about who can be beaten and who not, and they differ by family. Some men are beating their wifes and children, the children are not allowed to beat the parents, but they can fight on the streets. They beat each other and there is a sort of 'ranking' in who can beat who, has to do with age, wealth (!!!), power. Never beat anyone from a family where one of the memebers is rich and can be usefull to you in the future, money and opportunities are protecting them. Its a perfect example of the doublefacedness...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
me, i never hit aleya...dont yell at her either. i dont need to. i dont baby talk her or speak to her like she is a small child. i talk to her and i explain things and lay life down like she is a 16 year old or something and it works.
i dont sugar coat things and when she asks me things, i tell her the real answer. and even if the truth is scary, i explain things to her...i am trying to have her grow up strong and not afraid of anything, with the ability to fend for herself and do whats right.
and cuz i do this, she is well mannered, NEVER throws fits, is expremely understanding and very intelligent and strong.
i also explain to her the value of a human being...when we are out and if she sees someone with a handicap or disfigurment or whatever of course she asks me about it...but i tell her, 'aleya, under all that is the same feelings and mind and heart that the rest of us have. they cannot help being made that way and even if they look different, thats the way god made them. and because of that one fact, they are beautiful...and remember, if you ever had that condition, you wouldnt like it if people put you down and wouldnt want to be your friend would you? the same way you would feel is the same way they feel.' and she holds on to that.
i try to throw life lessons to her every chance i can. but also, i am very cool with her and fun and we are always playing and i take her to shows and events and concerts and stuff...we associate on the same level and because of that she is very happy and cultured. i never put her to bed with out laying with her and tlaking and laughing and stuff...then i simply scrath her back and she goes to sleep. in the morning, i put the cat i nher bed and tickle her and be happy and she wakes up smiling. to many times parents put their kids to bed scared and act cold to them if they show this fear...then wake them up the next morning with a chilly 'get up' and nobody wants to be treated like that. parents can sometimes treat the kids unknowingly as if they are burdens and it affects them when they get older big time.
everyone tells me she is too grown for her age..she is like a 20 yr old trapped in a 6 year olds body.
you treata them the way you wanna be treated thats all and always keep it in the top of your mind that everything you say and do they are going to feed off of and REMEMBER...so you gotta be careful and fill these years full of lessons and wisdom...not sugar coated facts of life, showing annoyance towards them and yelling at them making them feel just as bad as you would if someone yelled or smacked you around.
Posts: 2757 | From: YOU CAN ONLY SEE WHAT I CHOOSE TO SHOW, THERE IS SO MUCH MORE YOU JUST DONT KNOW | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
How can we truly judge what way is right and wrong? I think the way of discipline varies with the personality of the child. With my son, nothing worked. I tried the time outs, i tried the ignoring the kicking and screaming fits, i tried taking things away from him for amounts of time, i also tried the spanking, and the simple sit down and talk to him. Now with my girls, my older one a simple slight raise in voice above just normal talking was enough, most times just a look given to her and a you had best straighten up and behave was enough. my younger girl, now she is a bit more challenging. She will tell me no, yell at me and insist she will not do what she is supposed to do when she is at her worst moments. Taking tv away or sending to her room, ignoring her in this case doesnt work... but one swat on the butt and she is behaving quickly. Certainly not hard enough to hurt at all but just enough that she realizes that enough is enough. Other times in her less volatile moods and just being stubborn i can tell her that if she doesnt do as she should she will not do as she wants works. Each individual child needs something different. One of my friends has a horrible time with her daughter, she is 4. She also tried the spanking thing, didnt work for her little girl, however the child is very clingy and hates to be alone so, i suggested she remove everything from the girls bedroom other than a chair and her bed, whenever she misbehaves and doesnt correct the behaviour after one warning, simply pick her up and put her in the room and close the door. (baby monitor in room). After 2 times of doing this that child, if warned ahead of time to behave, will be as good as gold.(her really big issue was the public fits in the stores, so she will ask her what will happen if she throws a fit in the store, little girl will say she has to have time out.. and behaves) the one time she didnt ask her what would happen, she threw a huge fit. Her younger daughter of 3, all you have to do is say her full name. No child should ever be beaten in any way, a mild swat on the butt is completely different, and yelling hardly ever works.
One interesting point to say here, Has anyone taken time to stop and think about how much egyptian children respect and love their parents, especially their mothers compared to how children and teens in our societies treat parents? So if egyptians are sooo horrible to their children why do these children grow up wanting to remain close to their parents and take care of them????
posted
i think they remain closer to their mothers than their fathers...especially sons. fathers in egypt can be pretty stupid and asshole to the mother and they grow up feeling bad for the mom.
i have yet to meet an egyptian man who actually likes his father.
my ex and his dad hate each others guts. remember i told you guys, when him and aleya went to egypt, he literally moved from the house because he didnt want to see him since as the reason is he left me, and also had a baby while cheating on me.
from what i heard from his sisters and uncle, he told him, 'i dont want to see your face here...i didnt raise you to be this kind of man and you are no longer a son of mine.' and spit at him. he actually cut him off from inheritance (ya whatever measly amount that would be) because he screwed me over.
left the apartment building that was handed down from his grandfather to the second oldest brother and everything.
Posts: 2757 | From: YOU CAN ONLY SEE WHAT I CHOOSE TO SHOW, THERE IS SO MUCH MORE YOU JUST DONT KNOW | Registered: Oct 2007
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