posted
First is the ‘official’ marriage. This is where the bride is dressed up (usually in white) a large venue is booked, official photographs are taken, videographers are often present, and copious numbers of family, friends and colleagues gather, dressed up to the nines and celebrate as lavishly as the couple’s families’ budget allows. For Christians there is a church service beforehand and for Muslims the religious ceremony happens before the wedding party, sometimes months before, and will always involve at least the bride and groom’s close family members. This is because, for marriage to be fully sanctioned in Islam, it is essential that ’society’ knows about it. It is unheard of for a couple to disappear and come back together married.
The second type of marriage is called orfi marriage. This is a fully sanctioned Islamic practice. This wedding, however, does not involve the family, does not have a party and for, the most part, is done in secret. Within the religious culture there are explanations for its existence. In reality it has seedy connotations, (the equivalent of legalising prostitution), as well as romantic starry-eyed ones (students who want to get married but know their families would not agree). It is, however, regarded by NOBODY (the State included) as being an ‘official’ marriage.
The problem with orfi ‘marriages’ between Egyptian men and foreign women (perhaps the same goes the other way around too, I just haven’t heard of it) is that there is usually a huge gulf in understanding the concept of orfi ‘marriages’ between the two people. While the man/Muslim who has been brought up in a culture where he understands the difference from day one, and is used to the idea that the sanctity concept of the word ‘marriage’ applying only to the ‘official’ type, the woman/non-Muslim (or recent convert) often doesn’t fully understand this.
n reality, orfi ‘marriages’ are little more than a contract that allows the couple to live together and share hotel rooms together. They call each other husband and wife, but, and this is where the problems often come in for the foreign party: despite the husband/wife terms being used, there is absolutely no necessity for the underlying intention to be together ’til death us to part’.
The heartbreaking confusion that unfortunately seems to arise from this misunderstanding is common. Neither side is to blame - it’s just one of those cultural misunderstandings arising from cultural differences. It took me about five years of living here and watching how things work to get my head around the fact that when a man is calling someone his wife, it doesn’t necessarily mean she is his life partner if the marriage is orfi.
Perhaps most importantly, in an orfi ‘marriage’, there are no provisions for the wife if a divorce happens and fathers of children in orfi marriages have only recently been made to take some (limited) responsibility for them. The children, as I understand it, would not have a father’s name on their birth certificate. Orfi ‘divorces’ anyway rarely occur, a separation just takes place and both parties disappear into the ether in exactly the same way as they would had they been boyfriend/girlfriend in the West. In contrast, in the ‘official’ Islamic marriages, there are strict religious and social conventions that are followed before the marriage that set a framework for provisions in the case of divorce.
There are some common stories (involving foreigners) I’ve heard throughout my time here:
- A man from Saudi Arabia, the Emirates, Kuwait ‘marries’ a new Western convert. The wedding cannot take place in his home country for some reason that sounds fine to Western ears, convert or not, but is in reality socially implausible (as there is no instance where he would have an ‘official’ marriage without large numbers of extended family present).
- Egyptian man and Western woman get ‘married’. She believes they are now husband and wife…
- Egyptian man and Western woman get ‘married’. She understands it’s a contract, however, after months of referring to her partner/boyfriend as her husband and being referred to as his wife, the connotations of those terms begin, somewhere deep inside, to arouse feelings of the type of security she associates with ‘full’ marriage. When it ends, she feels her ‘husband’ wasn’t taking it as seriously as her.
So, bottom line: orfi ‘marriages’ are not marriages in the Western/Christian concept. Orfi ‘marriage’ = contract to live together without the police interfering.
Perhaps most importantly, not all Egyptian men are love rats. Not by any means. Just as not all American, French, Japanese or Outer Mongolian men are (or aren’t). There are huge cultural differences between this culture and Western culture, with both having some amazing points and both having points I don’t like quite so much. When two people from such different cultural backgrounds come together, particularly when the female partner is from the West, there is a labyrinth of problems that arise purely from cultural differences. Linguistic problems often conspire to make it even harder and of course, there are the typical issues that arise when two characters meet.
Relationships between Egyptian men and Western women can and do work out, but they typically take an enormous amount of time, effort, understanding and patience by both parties. And ultimately, the chances of success are limited if one party does not fully understand the framework of their relationship’s basis.
Among upper classes,, students may less frequently marry orfi in order to marry someone not approved of by their parents. however, more skeptical about the claim that there could be as many as 14,000 babies born into such secret marriages. “Where do they keep them?”Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ilovezulekha: there could be as many as 14,000 babies born into such secret marriages. “Where do they keep them?”
orphanages
Not all the time they are killed one person said to me once that if he went with a girl and she got pregnant its not his problem its hers better still he said he would have her killed Discusting is it not to have this manners but its true some egyptian come arabians do think like this exspecially the upper class and the outward bound ones .I have known a woman from one family to have been raped nothing was done had the baby and only to have it strangled afterwards that made me very very sick .
Most Islamic religious scholars agree that orfi marriage is un-Islamic by virtue of its being secret. Islam requires a marriage be announced and observed by at least two witnesses.Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
But orfi's don't have to be secret. I've spoken to a few people with them, all of them have been announced, and took place with at least two witnesses, just like mine. I think there are two very different orfis- one is a secret and highly suspicious, the other is used like an engagement, or a cheap marriage, but not some dark secret.
Anyone who signs anything with knowing exactly what it means if foolish. So any woman who got an orfi thinking it gave her the rights or a normal wife, should have done her research.
-------------------- Another one.... Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
Only thing is, WK, how many western women even know there's any research to be done? How many know they are 'only' getting an Orfi and its not a 'proper' marriage? I joined this site after my second or third trip to Egypt, at that point I had never heard of orfi (not that its ever applied to me - just for the record!)
If they are told by Mr Gig that they are getting married, they are in a foreign country, they may have no clue that the orfi isn't a full marriage - they may not even realise there is anything to be checked out. Its very easy to go round imagining that things are as in UK/US where marriage doesn't make a fat lot of difference in most cases.
You meet wonder boy on the Red Sea where you are behaving pretty much as you would at any Mediterranean holiday resort - sun bathing round the hotel pool with no top on, walking round in skimpy clothes, drinking in bars - it all seems so very western... you're so in love and where in the UK mentioning the L word before you've been dating 6 months is an utter no-no (last seen running...) here they say it on the 2nd day and propose on the 3rd.. so romantic, their feelings must be as strong as yours .. you don't realise at this point that in many parts of Egypt getting married is how you get laid. (An Irish friend of mine told me that 20 years ago in Ireland it was similar - marriages happened very quickly because that's how you got laid).
I do recall one woman posting here that she'd got married, she was over the moon about it, she commented that the ceremony seemed very basic but her bf had assured her that's how you got married here, and it was in front of a lawyer so she had no reason to doubt it.
UK Registry office marriages can be as simple as orfi - grab a couple of witnesses off the street, there's the few statutory words and a couple of signatures and there you are, married, so why should she doubt it?
It gets quite confusing here anyway even to those of us that are aware of these things. Marriages here seem to have so many different parts - I've heard Egyptian women referring to their 'husbands' but then it turns out they aren't actually married yet, just engaged, but in the remote parts, once a woman is engaged, she may as well start referring to her husband because if she tries to break it off she will be killed - simple as that.
Then other times people are 'married' but not living together until the flat or whatever is ready and then get married all over again.
And referring to people as 'fiance' when in the UK they would just be boyfriend/girlfriend - noone in the UK blathers on about fiances all the time (other than a formal introduction) unless they are sad and desperate to prove that someone wants to marry them (you know the type - always go round with their ring finger stuck out exhibiting their 'rock'), whereas here its quite normal - but quite jarring at first.
Your questioning attitude was very refreshing WK - checking everything out - but did you notice the reactions you got from people?
All those that rush in to say 'told you so' when westerners go in all starry eyed and end up in trouble ("why didn't you check it all out like Egyptian women do and stitch it up tight in the marriage contract") were exactly the same people criticizing you for checking things out because 'obviously' it meant you weren't in love and didn't trust your guy.
Posts: 5593 | From: Egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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Anyone who signs anything with knowing exactly what it means if foolish.
when you signed yours was it the official English translation of the lawyers contract? Where did you get it, or did the lawyer have both arabic and english?
Posts: 3416 | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Shanta Qadeama: Only thing is, WK, how many western women even know there's any research to be done? How many know they are 'only' getting an Orfi and its not a 'proper' marriage? I joined this site after my second or third trip to Egypt, at that point I had never heard of orfi (not that its ever applied to me - just for the record!)
If they are told by Mr Gig that they are getting married, they are in a foreign country, they may have no clue that the orfi isn't a full marriage - they may not even realise there is anything to be checked out. Its very easy to go round imagining that things are as in UK/US where marriage doesn't make a fat lot of difference in most cases.
You meet wonder boy on the Red Sea where you are behaving pretty much as you would at any Mediterranean holiday resort - sun bathing round the hotel pool with no top on, walking round in skimpy clothes, drinking in bars - it all seems so very western... you're so in love and where in the UK mentioning the L word before you've been dating 6 months is an utter no-no (last seen running...) here they say it on the 2nd day and propose on the 3rd.. so romantic, their feelings must be as strong as yours .. you don't realise at this point that in many parts of Egypt getting married is how you get laid. (An Irish friend of mine told me that 20 years ago in Ireland it was similar - marriages happened very quickly because that's how you got laid).
I do recall one woman posting here that she'd got married, she was over the moon about it, she commented that the ceremony seemed very basic but her bf had assured her that's how you got married here, and it was in front of a lawyer so she had no reason to doubt it.
UK Registry office marriages can be as simple as orfi - grab a couple of witnesses off the street, there's the few statutory words and a couple of signatures and there you are, married, so why should she doubt it?
It gets quite confusing here anyway even to those of us that are aware of these things. Marriages here seem to have so many different parts - I've heard Egyptian women referring to their 'husbands' but then it turns out they aren't actually married yet, just engaged, but in the remote parts, once a woman is engaged, she may as well start referring to her husband because if she tries to break it off she will be killed - simple as that.
Then other times people are 'married' but not living together until the flat or whatever is ready and then get married all over again.
And referring to people as 'fiance' when in the UK they would just be boyfriend/girlfriend - noone in the UK blathers on about fiances all the time (other than a formal introduction) unless they are sad and desperate to prove that someone wants to marry them (you know the type - always go round with their ring finger stuck out exhibiting their 'rock'), whereas here its quite normal - but quite jarring at first.
Your questioning attitude was very refreshing WK - checking everything out - but did you notice the reactions you got from people?
All those that rush in to say 'told you so' when westerners go in all starry eyed and end up in trouble ("why didn't you check it all out like Egyptian women do and stitch it up tight in the marriage contract") were exactly the same people criticizing you for checking things out because 'obviously' it meant you weren't in love and didn't trust your guy.
I cannot wait for you to marry and aquire a visa oops oh my god just to live in Egypt the tables are tuuuuuuuuuuurning happy hunting OB the real reason i am peed off it i find the morals of marriage is having the piss taken out of it it too damn easy peasy to marry these days and get a talak through a text message does your bloody head in what happend to meet court and loooooooooove and live to gether for about 55 years . personaly i am winding WK up she seems to fall for my crap she does what ever she wants its her life not mine but i do love a little shaking up here and there after all thats me good ole MERRY CHRISTMAS AND YES OLD BAG WISE POST
Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
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Anyone who signs anything with knowing exactly what it means if foolish.
when you signed yours was it the official English translation of the lawyers contract? Where did you get it, or did the lawyer have both arabic and english?
Nope toilet paper its just as good as SHITE Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote: when you signed yours was it the official English translation of the lawyers contract? Where did you get it, or did the lawyer have both arabic and english?
Seemed a bit pointless at the time, because the only reason we got it was to be able to be alone together (but I'll have you all know, it was only for day time, and I had my hotel room I went to at night- I'm a good girl really ). But, I knew that I had zero rights, and considering I hardly knew Sam at the time, I was very happy that I can rip it up with no hassle (I kept both copies at that time, but now we both keep our own)
quote: personaly i am winding WK up she seems to fall for my crap
You think you are winding me up? Oh god no, you have actually provided me with some entertainment- clearly you must be very bored to try though. Keep it coming. I actually like this thread, I've no idea how you thought I was annoyed by it. People should know exactly what they are getting into when they get an orfi. Sam calls me his wife, but I wear an engagement ring, not wedding ring.
-------------------- Another one.... Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote: when you signed yours was it the official English translation of the lawyers contract? Where did you get it, or did the lawyer have both arabic and english?
Seemed a bit pointless at the time, because the only reason we got it was to be able to be alone together (but I'll have you all know, it was only for day time, and I had my hotel room I went to at night- I'm a good girl really ). But, I knew that I had zero rights, and considering I hardly knew Sam at the time, I was very happy that I can rip it up with no hassle (I kept both copies at that time, but now we both keep our own)
quote: personaly i am winding WK up she seems to fall for my crap
You think you are winding me up? Oh god no, you have actually provided me with some entertainment- clearly you must be very bored to try though. Keep it coming. I actually like this thread, I've no idea how you thought I was annoyed by it. People should know exactly what they are getting into when they get an orfi. Sam calls me his wife, but I wear an engagement ring, not wedding ring.
I DONT WANT TO KNOW DID I ASK NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO YUR FEEDING ME THE PM OF YOU WAS RIGHT ...........
Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by weirdkitty: But orfi's don't have to be secret. I've spoken to a few people with them, all of them have been announced, and took place with at least two witnesses, just like mine. I think there are two very different orfis- one is a secret and highly suspicious, the other is used like an engagement, or a cheap marriage, but not some dark secret.
Anyone who signs anything with knowing exactly what it means if foolish. So any woman who got an orfi thinking it gave her the rights or a normal wife, should have done her research.
WK, Please dont take this as me getting to you, but i am just curious to know, was everything done in English when you got married? Was the certificate in English?
If not, as you dont speak Arabic, how would you 'fully' understand it all?
Also, research is all well and good, and i DO think you are aware of the pro's and Con's, but there really isnt any difference between the orfi's, as you describe. If they are being used to 'try each other out' or have a 'dating period' then this is why they are not REALLY the same as committing for life, as in a recognized marriage, like the original thread said.
I think Orfi's allow people to have a western style relationship in Egypt, but its not the same as marriage. On the most part, there is not the same commitment involved, and i'm not sure how this paves the way for the family to be informed later down the line.
I think its important for people to have their family support when they get married, whether that is in the UK or Egypt. If people marry in secret, then it doesnt start the marriage well IMO.
I know a Pakistani girl who married her Pakistani husband in secret because the family weren't agreeing. Sadly, 5 children later, his family still treat her badly, because they will resent how it happened and that they were ignored, after all, the parents are soooooooo important really, they MADE these people, is it fair to leave them out of who their son/daughter should pick for a life partner? I dont think so, I think its disrespectful.
But WK, this isn't directed at you, and wallahi i am not getting at you, I am just giving my opinion on the whole process in general.
Inshaallah everything will turn out good for you both.
Oldbag - Excellent post as usual Posts: 552 | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
Ask what? What are you on about? You sound like a crazy person! You thought you were winding me up, I was pointing out that you wasn't. But YAY, people are pm'ing me behind my back! Surely that means I'm a full fledge ES member now. I feel special, ahh, it must be christmas
-------------------- Another one.... Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
Lol Cat, I know we have had our differences in the past, but you don’t have to be so reassuring every time you direct a post at me. I don’t see everything you say as a personal attack, so don’t worry
I know orfi’s are not committing your life, at the time I didn’t want it to be. I was saying there is a difference between secret ones, and ones used either as an engagement/to allow dating/cheap version marriage, etc. I don’t see it as my marriage, which is why me and Sam are planning an official marriage for after my studies (the whole shebang, yay).
Our orfi has changed as our relationship has changed. At first we got it to get to know each other as much as possible in the short time we were together. Now, it is more like an engagement, but you do have people who have it as a marriage, like FK and Baldy. They lived together, and now have a baby girl, so you can’t say their orfi wasn’t a committed marriage. Sadly, not all marriages are committed relationships either- I’m sure some Egyptian’s have gone MOJ in secret with a western just to get what they want (sex, money, visa, etc). I guess the only thing that makes a committed relationship isn’t any paper involved, but the two people themselves.
-------------------- Another one.... Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by weirdkitty: I guess the only thing that makes a committed relationship isn’t any paper involved, but the two people themselves.
The most sensible thing I have read on this subject in a long time...wise head on young shoulders WK.
The fact is it makes absolutely no difference what bit of paper you have, its down to what is the intention of the two people themselves. If you are committed to your marriage working then it can be ORFI, MOJO, YFAE OCAL RPHW.
In most cases the people in Egyptian society will have no idea what paper you have, they will see your marriage for what it really is by your behaviour to each other. Its not easy to fool Egyptians and if you are just playing they will see it.
Dont worry WK if you end up going for the whole commitment and give it your heart and sole then no decent Egyptian will judge you that you started off with an ORFI.
To contemplate marriage between two such different cultures needs time before making that final commitment. The stupid ones are those that rush in because they think they are head over heels in love without taking that time to really understand what they are getting into. Its probably the ORFI marriages that go onto become full marriages that are the ones that work out in the long run.
ORFI is always going to be a problem because of the clash in two cultures but when its used in an honest well intentioned way then it does serve as a bridge between the the two.
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I do agree with alot of what you are saying Penny and WK. It is definately down to the commitment 2 people have for each other that determines whether a relationship works.
But, I'm not sure that I would say, therefore it doesnt matter what piece of paper you have. If two people use an ORFI to get to know each other and spend time with each other prior to a marriage, in a culture that doesn't support this kind of relationship, then how can you expect the society to percieve it in the same way?
Isn't that a bit like imposing our cultural norms on someone else and saying 'of course its ok, if you were a 'decent' person you would see that its fine to do things this way' ?
I agree that ORFI can act as a bridge between two cultures, but I'm wondering whether there needs to be a bridge?
I dont know, my main concern would not so much be the level of commitment, but mainly the fact that a couple get ORFI married without the Egyptian family knowing about it, I think its a bit cloak and dagger, and not sure it paves the way for a good future. But maybe i am wrong, I guess I would ask WHY an ORFI? Why not a legal marriage?
Isn't accepting ORFI marriages for this purpose going to gradually fizzle out Islamic tradition?
Posts: 552 | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shanta Qadeama:
It gets quite confusing here anyway even to those of us that are aware of these things. Marriages here seem to have so many different parts - I've heard Egyptian women referring to their 'husbands' but then it turns out they aren't actually married yet, just engaged, but in the remote parts, once a woman is engaged, she may as well start referring to her husband because if she tries to break it off she will be killed - simple as that.
[/QUOTE
I have many Egyptian friends, and they were never killed when they broke off their engagement. Are you Egyptian? If so, what part of Egypt?
Posts: 4 | Registered: Dec 2008
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I was told about the killings of recalcitrant fiancees by a bedouin when I went camping in the desert. I have no reason to doubt him. This is why I referred to 'remote parts'.
Posts: 5593 | From: Egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by weirdkitty: Ask what? What are you on about? You sound like a crazy person! You thought you were winding me up, I was pointing out that you wasn't. But YAY, people are pm'ing me behind my back! Surely that means I'm a full fledge ES member now. I feel special, ahh, it must be christmas
KOOL HAVE A NICE ONE AND WELCOME TO ES blah dy blah
Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Shanta Qadeama: No I'm not Egyptian.
I was told about the killings of recalcitrant fiancees by a bedouin when I went camping in the desert. I have no reason to doubt him. This is why I referred to 'remote parts'.
When I read your post, I thought you were referring to all Egyptians. Yeah, I too have heard some crazy things that happen in Lebanon from Bedouins.
Posts: 4 | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
Well not that my 2 cents matters a damn bit, but I do agree that an orfi is probably the only way to really get to know someone you are considering marrying, It is a terribly frightening concept to think of marrying someone you have never been alone with or even kissed! Holy Cow! That is a huge cultural difference you wouldnt even consider it with a Western guy, but somehow the muslim traditionalists expect that you would do this with an Egyptian guy? Really there is always going to have to be some middle ground when two cultures meet and an orfi (which is allowed, if looked down on) seems to be a compromise that can bridge that gap. Seriously, if I had married every guy I had wanted to kiss....
Posts: 929 | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
Mira - And this is precisely my point... YOU would find it scary to do things the Islamic way.
So why on Earth are non muslim women considering marrying a muslim man in the first place?? If the very first thing you come accross in the relationship requires that you find some mid ground and go against Islamic tradition, because lets face it, sex before marriage is a BIG part of Islam - so you propose taking this away because it provides a 'bridge'?
Islam doesn't need bridges, it doesnt need to become more appropriate to western versions of relationships. If God says you dont need ORFI's and living together, and intimacy before marriage, then you dont need it, for a successful marriage IMO.
At the end of the day, you start your relationship by trying to find a 'bridge' trying to somehow mesh these two contrasting expectations of relationships, do you think that the rest will go smoothly? Do you think that you will not continually look for 'bridges' in your relationship?
I'm not saying that only the western women are asking for ORFI's, because I am aware Egytians use them for various reasons, as well as men suggesting them.
What I AM saying is the arguments given by western women on this thread promote things from a western, non muslim perspective - lets not leave religion out of this, just because society accepts ORFI's, because Islam does not, and you ARE marrying a Muslim.
Posts: 552 | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
MS just convert to be a muslim and then you will just be a muslim woman marrying a muslim man! End of debate
I personally cannot see the big issue with all this marriage and urfi talk as in reality here no-one really gives a flying fire truck!!! Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Lady Ferret: MS just convert to be a muslim and then you will just be a muslim woman marrying a muslim man! End of debate
I personally cannot see the big issue with all this marriage and urfi talk as in reality here no-one really gives a flying fire truck!!!
well i do its was on the down crease untill the mad horny men wanted to marry western women who easy peasy spread it more than an egyptian women (they do )too but not as much and plus they dont live in a country full of short ass women with their crotches showing so undignified thats all i can say .I feel a huge cage need cleaning oops my rabbit as pooped tara bumdeyhey Ma knickers flew away they went on holday and arab fullfilled then yesterday .Shreeeeeeak he loves me he wants me he wants my love i love you YASMIN oh i love you MIDO awwwwwwwwwww its love mwah mwah mwah lets do orfi its a shaggable paper and GUESS WHAT IT SAVES US MONEY AND I JUST HAVE TO TIPP THE WAITER AND THE MANAGER AND YOU WILL BE INSHALLAH RESPECTED yah yah yah bed rocks back and forth I LOVE YOU MY LITTLE POPPY SAWKS . Meeeeeeeeeeery cwistmas
Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
Yeah cos you really have to marry to have sex in Egypt. Boy there are some naive people around!
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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posted
trying to interpret MyGirlRocks comment. I am assuming MGR is a woman...??? and what is a short ass woman...??? I am going to the mirror to look to see if my ass is short...??? Looking to also see if my crotch is showing in an undignified way...??? I am sure I have never shown my crotch to anyone unless I wanted to..and then it was definitely in a dignified manner!!! hehehe...
CF I am still having trouble calling Egypt..I am getting really mad now...I wanna talk to my friends by phone!! Do you know how long this phone line thing will go on?
Anyway Merry Christmas to all!!!
Posts: 263 | From: Georgia USA | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
I just called a mobile in Egypt and i didn't get that funny 900 number message . . . i have been getting for days and today was the first time a call has gone through.
-------------------- I fell in to a burning ring of fire . . . Posts: 895 | From: NorthTexas, USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
:Seriously, if I had married every guy I had wanted to kiss.... : --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ROFL Mirasol,you crack me up.Its soo true! Posts: 3833 | From: here,there,everywhere | Registered: Nov 2007
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Member Rated: posted 25 December, 2008 09:15 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- trying to interpret MyGirlRocks comment. I am assuming MGR is a woman...??? and what is a short ass woman...??? I am going to the mirror to look to see if my ass is short...??? Looking to also see if my crotch is showing in an undignified way...??? I am sure I have never shown my crotch to anyone unless I wanted to..and then it was definitely in a dignified manner!!! hehehe...:
OMG Im ROFLing soo hard now i cant even write.
short ass....
Posts: 3833 | From: here,there,everywhere | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Sashyra8: ; Member Member # 13867
Member Rated: posted 25 December, 2008 09:15 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- trying to interpret MyGirlRocks comment. I am assuming MGR is a woman...??? and what is a short ass woman...??? I am going to the mirror to look to see if my ass is short...??? Looking to also see if my crotch is showing in an undignified way...??? I am sure I have never shown my crotch to anyone unless I wanted to..and then it was definitely in a dignified manner!!! hehehe...:
OMG Im ROFLing soo hard now i cant even write.
short ass....
then how you right short ass with the crack of your buttocks opening . Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Sashyra8: ; Member Member # 13867
Member Rated: posted 25 December, 2008 09:15 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- trying to interpret MyGirlRocks comment. I am assuming MGR is a woman...??? and what is a short ass woman...??? I am going to the mirror to look to see if my ass is short...??? Looking to also see if my crotch is showing in an undignified way...??? I am sure I have never shown my crotch to anyone unless I wanted to..and then it was definitely in a dignified manner!!! hehehe...:
OMG Im ROFLing soo hard now i cant even write.
short ass....
then how you right short ass with the crack of your buttocks opening .
That's not how you write write though. Posts: 6335 | From: Straight to my heart. | Registered: Sep 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Lady Ferret: MS just convert to be a muslim and then you will just be a muslim woman marrying a muslim man! End of debate
I personally cannot see the big issue with all this marriage and urfi talk as in reality here no-one really gives a flying fire truck!!!
I find this kind of comment so disrespectful of Muslims. In what way will converting in name only solve any problems?
If someone marries a practicing (key word) Muslim and they convert in name only, then the problems will still exist.
What is the problem with discussing Orfi's from an Islamic perspective? there is no need to belittle this. We are all entitled to an opinion, and if we are discussing issues relating to muslims, then other muslims have a right to discuss the issue without being made to feel that what they say is wrong, because ISLAMICALLY they are not wrong.
If you constantly refer to those people who are not practicing their religion, as an example of the 'norm', then really that is a different discussion. I can assure you that a PRACTICING muslim with a practicing family, WILL give a flying fire truck.
Posts: 552 | Registered: Mar 2008
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I too am one of those obsene western women who has a 'Orfi' certificate with my guy.
We have this in order like WK to be able to spend time together getting to know each other. This is not about sex but about spending time alone learning about each others habits, likes and dislikes and generally if we actually got on, other than just meeting for coffee.
Our relationship has only been able to blossom through having our Orfi. We have not rushed into marrying and taken our time to understand and learn about each other slowly. No this is not ideal as my guy is practicing muslim, but to him now he calls me his wife and i too wear an engangement ring.
We are in the process of planning getting married for real. Muslim or not my guy understand the need to ensure when he chooses his wife it is for life. For this reason is why we both choose to go for Orfi.
Many may knock us, but at least we both know what we are getting into. Unlike many marriages that fall at the first fence, mixed egyptian or otherwise.
Posts: 547 | From: uk | Registered: Jun 2008
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SB... in reality. True muslims would not judge you or your reasons.
Also, no Egyptian I know would care one iota who you married or why
It really is not that big a deal in every day life here. If I announced I was to marry my friends would congratulate me not question how.
I wear a wedding ring and nobody has every questioned it You know why... people really don't care so much.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Sashyra8: Yup...they way she spells it is obviously with her butthole.
right instead of write
double ROFL
you only come in when you got someone to back you up like ole rubber tits here shisha hacker right wite write tight shite Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
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A boom in the illegal marriages is a byproduct of voluminous immigration by Muslims. Authorities largely ignore the unions, leaving the women in a murky world with no recourse when things go wrong. illigitate babies ???? we are so bad allowing ourselves to be corrupted Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
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This is my point MGR... everybody is so quick to point the finger at the West for 'corrupting' Egyptian society and their way of life but people are pretty damn slow in seeing that a high proportion of Egyptian Society is not putting up much of a fight...
Who is worse in the eyes of Allah, the non believer marrying for sex or the believer???
Finally, while I am chucking my 2 piastres in... I know oodles of muslims who drink, smoke, get stoned, have sex and then go to Mosque... they just do not talk about it so openly leading the nauve to believe it does not happen.
If anything many an Egyptian could lead many a westerner astray Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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hey LF don't forget those of us who have been married off and don't even know it ! Posts: 3945 | From: ' Res Contr ' Amor non es guirens, lai on sos poders s'atura | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Lady Ferret: This is my point MGR... everybody is so quick to point the finger at the West for 'corrupting' Egyptian society and their way of life but people are pretty damn slow in seeing that a high proportion of Egyptian Society is not putting up much of a fight...
Who is worse in the eyes of Allah, the non believer marrying for sex or the believer???
Finally, while I am chucking my 2 piastres in... I know oodles of muslims who drink, smoke, get stoned, have sex and then go to Mosque... they just do not talk about it so openly leading the nauve to believe it does not happen.
If anything many an Egyptian could lead many a westerner astray
THEN WHY GO you dont think i dont know what goes on in a muslim society WRONG i do and its wrong but then i find it wrong on western women going over there and getting up to stuff and then moan .I asked a question and no one bloody answers it how many muslim men marry a egyptian woman in ther late 50s and hes in his 20s if so find me one please i have lived there and not seen it does it happen Uhmmmmmmmm i dont know maybe for a pay out yes but mainly the egyptian men love families and kids when one in her 50s after 7 years does not fall pregnant they start questioning but if the parents are dead of the son theres not alot of pressure but beleive me in 10years time and you have not fullfilled a child and ur well in your 60s by then and he is in his early 30s he be gone or dipping it . I will say however not all think like this there is some that go by the word of ALLah if he grants it then so be it if he does not then accept it . BUT some will not think like this at all .
Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
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Cut the crap Kalila... you an I both know you got married to an Egyptian last time you were here!!!
You landed in Sharm on the Sunday met him on the Monday, fell in lust on the Tuesday, married on the Wednesday, didn't get out of bed on the Thursday, couldn't find him on the Friday, tracked him and his 3 wives down on the Saturday, and then you flew home on the Sunday!!!
Look... you either conform to the stereotype or get the hell outta here Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Lady Ferret: SB... in reality. True muslims would not judge you or your reasons.
Also, no Egyptian I know would care one iota who you married or why
It really is not that big a deal in every day life here. If I announced I was to marry my friends would congratulate me not question how.
I wear a wedding ring and nobody has every questioned it You know why... people really don't care so much.
Since when have you become the judge of who is a 'true' muslim?
Who said I was judging her, or anyone, I am just stating how things are Islamically, and Islamically its wrong.
You clearly state how you know sooo many muslims who, quite honestly, are hypocrites, yes HYPOCRITES. You always come on here with the same opinion Cheeky, that because your 'muslim' friends do this and that, and because you live in Egypt, this is how things are.
Have you ever wondered why there are so few Egyptian muslims on this site, I will tell you. Because they get sick to the back teeth of western womens 'expert' opinion on all things Egyptian - and this extends to the Islamic opinions many of you non muslims have, based on your 'friends'.
Guess what, I have MANY Egyptian friends, practicing muslims, as well as practicing muslims from other nationalities - they DONT go out and drink, take drugs, have sex...then to the mosque for Friday prayer.
They live their lives according to Islam, in the best way possible, they dont change the rules to suit modern society, or their latest love interest, or peer pressure.
ORFI's are not accepted in Islam - PERIOD. If a muslim man is willing to have one to 'get to know you better' then more fool you.
Posts: 552 | Registered: Mar 2008
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I know someone in here who married a man in Orfi had cool cermony the works wedding dress and all. And then 6mmonths later married another one in the ministry and had it all legalised he finds out 2months later she is already still married in the orfi but then its it not so that in the eyes of many egyptians its a fornification paper .So why do the egyptians them moan what a hussy what is with our men you go from one to another cannot you keep old of one or the same one for years .
-------------------- "Most men are accredited fools shortly after they leave the womb.” Posts: 1116 | From: WARNING All stressed out & no one to choke | Registered: Sep 2008
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There are so few Egyptians on here as it is full of lies and crap. lmao, I have never know such a false representation of a society in all my life. I have had friends sit and read this with me and pissed themselves laughing at some of the pretentios crap that is spouted! I am so glad I live here and see Egyptian life for how it really is and not for how it embellished on ES.
If a muslim marries a girl who would have had sex with him without the paper then more fool him!!!
I think a blind man could spot a true muslim just like he could spot a good christian or a good jew!!! It is harldy rocket science.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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I do think that living, working and socialising here wih various and numerous people does actually allow me to have an opinion of how life really is here.
I think basing and forming opinions based on reality is not such a bad way to live tbh.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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trying to interpret MyGirlRocks comment. I am assuming MGR is a woman...??? and what is a short ass woman...??? I am going to the mirror to look to see if my ass is short...??? Looking to also see if my crotch is showing in an undignified way...??? I am sure I have never shown my crotch to anyone unless I wanted to..and then it was definitely in a dignified manner!!! hehehe...
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