In an exhaustive -- and exhausting -- book on motherhood, anthropologist Sara Blaffer Hrdy breaks some big news: There is no such thing as maternal instinct.
Men murder much more often than women. But when a woman causes the death of another, that person is most likely to be her own newborn baby. It happens a lot, it has happened throughout history and it sometimes happens in epidemic proportions, with thousands of babies quietly being killed or abandoned.
Any sentient adult with a subscription to a newspaper knows that Susan Smith drowned her toddlers in 1994 by strapping them into their car seats and letting the car roll into a lake. Three years later, a high school girl in New Jersey went to the prom, gave birth in a bathroom, left the baby to die in a garbage can and returned to the dance. In October, authorities in Kansas City, Mo., charged a 31-year-old mother with murder after two of her 8-year-old triplets were found to have been starved and scalded to death.
We think of these events as aberrations. We want to believe that they are rare, unaccountable occasions when drugs or psychosis or abject terror overwhelm the steadfast ramparts of maternal instinct.
But what about the village in Bolivia where researchers found that nearly every woman had killed a newborn of her own during a period of war and economic stress in the 1930s, when the prospects of raising a child with a suitable father were extremely poor? Nearly 38 percent of the babies born in that village during a three-year period were killed by their mothers. Many of those women went on to become devoted mothers.
And in Europe, during the middle centuries of this millennium, babies -- millions of them -- were abandoned to near-certain death in foundling homes by mothers who would have known their newborns would not be adequately fed by wet-nurses. At some of these homes, death rates reached 80 percent or higher.
In one village in Papua New Guinea, 41 percent of all live infants born between 1974 and 1978 were killed by their parents just after birth. Of 20 infants killed, five were boys, the rest girls.
These stark images of mass maternal abandonment and killing come from a new book on motherhood by anthropologist Sarah Blaffer Hrdy, in which she proposes that in humans -- more than in any other species -- mother love is a sometime thing, a compulsion dependent on circumstances, not just hormones.
In fact, she says, there is no such thing as "the maternal instinct."
"Mothers do not automatically and unconditionally respond to giving birth in a nurturing way," says Hrdy (there is no vowel in the last name, which is the Czech word for "proud").
"A woman who is committed to being a mother will learn to love any baby, whether it's her own or not; a woman not committed to or prepared for being a mother may well not be prepared to love any baby, not even her own."
In her just-published book, "Mother Nature: A History of Mothers, Infants, and Natural Selection," Hrdy says that women, like other primates, make a choice about mothering. They consider the availability of food, shelter, a father -- and the costs of those things -- in deciding whether to do the job. As coldly modern as this assessment process may seem, it is as old as the species, as deeply ingrained in our psyches and in our biological histories as any of our other basic urges, says Hrdy.
By cracking the divine mysteries of mothering with such a dry-eyed and rational code, Hrdy takes on a powerful coalition of folks for whom the idea of maternal instinct is sacrosanct. Groups like the Family Research Council, Promise Keepers, Marriage Savers, the Heritage Council and attachment parents everywhere use the biological certainty of maternal instinct to anchor conservative political arguments and traditional approaches to parenting. Theirs is a brand of motherly love that psychologist Erich Fromm described in his 1956 book "The Art of Loving." "Mother's love is unconditional," he rhapsodized, "it is all protective, all enveloping."
Stalwartly scientific and openly feminist, Hrdy rejects what she views as a pie-in-the-sky construct that conveniently reduces women to one essential feature: the ability to give birth and nurture offspring. She claims, from high atop an enormous mound of research, that her motives are strictly scientific, not political.
"I'm trying to get away from the pop, pat answers that people throw around," Hrdy says in an interview, frequently cautioning against what she calls the unsophisticated use of the word "instinct."
I suppose someday if I do ever pop aa sprog out I could learn to like it but I really would never look back in fondness of the days it screamed at me and was sick down my neck.
Folk may think I am heartless... wrong. I adore children, children are great fun.
Babies are just noise and stench
In the animal kingdom the parents are known to kill or abandon their children so I am not shocked by these facts or stats. Saddened by them but not shocked.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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Dalia, any chance this book just helps to justify your own decision even more of not wanting children???
I post in a second another article (incl. a book recommendation) - take a look.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: Dalia, any chance this book just helps to justify your own decision even more of not wanting children???
It just confirms something that I have known all along -- that for some people it is the right decision to have children, and for others it is not to have some. Some people have a strong desire to have a child, others have none. We are all different and none is better than the other, none is more "natural" than the other, it's as simple as that.
But I find the wording of your question a bit strange. Why would I need to "justify" my decision? I don't see any need for justification whatsoever. I am living my life pretty much the way I want to live it, and as long as I am not affecting anybody else's life negatively, I don't see why I would have to explain or justify my choices.
I read the article you posted, nothing new in there, but interesting, thanks.
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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It is amazing that this kind of conversation is still going on. Children or not children is a personal choice just like any other. What would it be if all women had children even if they don't feel up to it. It would be horrible. And the world would be even more crowded than it already is.
And "justify", that sounds weird too, to me any confident and strong person do not need to justify his or her choices.
I know I could have had wonderful life either way - my life was fine before children I felt like nothing was missing (I never wanted a child, did't ever have 'baby fever' and now one kid is enough for me) and it is fine now, just one extra person added to it Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
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you never had the wish to marry, have children, grow old with this man and enjoy your grandchildren??
For my part I had the urge to have a baby before I even left school at 16. I always loved kids, I had to look into every stroller and complement each mother on her newborn, I worked as a babysitter back home as I did in Egypt.
For me my family really means everything. I would not want to have a different life. When I look at my children I am proud and delighted that I was able to bring them into this world. My single years are way behind me, I had enough fun and I enjoyed myself, my career is over - I had some pretty cool jobs - as I chose to stay home to look after our offspring.
And I am grateful towards my husband who feels the same way and provides for us. Without his enormous contribution we would not be able to have a big family like that and as you know we are growing. It's an absolute team effort what we are doing.
Ferret wrote: "I suppose someday if I do ever pop aa sprog out I could learn to like it but I really would never look back in fondness of the days it screamed at me and was sick down my neck."
You know I heard similar things before from other women but the truth is you change once you deliver. You will bond with your child and you wanna take care of it as good as possible. You will not mind if your baby will burp and spits on your blouse cause you know it's necessary to burp. When your child gets sick you feel awful yourself and when it smiles at you you gonna be even more happy.
And yes that is called maternal instinct.
PS: I love the way babies smell (and I don't mean dirty diapers here)!! Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: Dalia and Ferret,
you never had the wish to marry, have children, grow old with this man and enjoy your grandchildren??
For my part I had the urge to have a baby before I even left school at 16. I always loved kids, I had to look into every stroller and complement each mother on her newborn, I worked as a babysitter back home as I did in Egypt.
For me my family really means everything. I would not want to have a different life. When I look at my children I am proud and delighted that I was able to bring them into this world. My single years are way behind me, I had enough fun and I enjoyed myself, my career is over - I had some pretty cool jobs - as I chose to stay home to look after our offspring.
And I am grateful towards my husband who feels the same way and provides for us. Without his enormous contribution we would not be able to have a big family like that and as you know we are growing. It's an absolute team effort what we are doing.
Ferret wrote: "I suppose someday if I do ever pop aa sprog out I could learn to like it but I really would never look back in fondness of the days it screamed at me and was sick down my neck."
You know I heard similar things before from other women but the truth is you change once you deliver. You will bond with your child and you wanna take care of it as good as possible. You will not mind if your baby will burp and spits on your blouse cause you know it's necessary to burp. When your child gets sick you feel awful yourself and when it smiles at you you gonna be even more happy.
And yes that is called maternal instinct.
PS: I love the way babies smell (and I don't mean dirty diapers here)!!
Straight answer. No.
I don't need others in my life to complete me. My life is perfect and I am very very happy. I do not need a dependant to love me nor do I need a man to love me to make me feel good about myself.
Some people simply are happy with what they have... some simply aren't.
I have children in the family and I work with children, I get to enjoy others children then I get to go and continue my independant lifestyle on my own.. very very happily.
My joy in life is travelling... a child would mess that right up. Why would I want to end what makes me happy because society deems having a kid to be the norm
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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So Ferret take the case of you becoming pregnant now in your early 30's. Okay I said only imagine that; no need to get into a state of shock!!
Would you have the baby or have an abortion? Would you think twice and be willing to change your lifestyle or still say that a child would be only in the way of your own happiness?
Now to make this more complicated: The baby was fathered by your true love, a handsome man (dunno what preferences you have but you can't imagine an even more hotter guy in the whole universe), with stable income, sincere intentions, who loves you to bits and wants this child with you. What would you do?? Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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What makes a good mother is when she can either have a man materially provide for her or the government.
What makes a good mother is when she has nothing better to do with her life and the most she could hope for is a menal job living in poverty.
Becoming a mother is a way out of having to explore adult life as a successful individual.
Toeing the status quo and living according to very narrow and defined standards is a sign of a good mother.
Seriously does society want children to be raised by people who see parenthood as a way out of responsiblity for themselves?
I've seen alot of mothers who are proud of being 'stay at home' put their kids through of mirad of dangers rather than having to stick it out as a single parent on their own.
I've seen a number of mothers who are proud stay at home mothers slap their kids around in public.
Posts: 514 | Registered: Jul 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: So Ferret take the case of you becoming pregnant now in your early 30's. Okay I said only imagine that; no need to get into a state of shock!!
Would you have the baby or have an abortion? Would you think twice and be willing to change your lifestyle or still say that a child would be only in the way of your own happiness?
Now to make this more complicated: The baby was fathered by your true love, a handsome man (dunno what preferences you have but you can't imagine an even more hotter guy in the whole universe), with stable income, sincere intentions, who loves you to bits and wants this child with you. What would you do??
Sounds like you haven't come to terms with reality.
Posts: 514 | Registered: Jul 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: So Ferret take the case of you becoming pregnant now in your early 30's. Okay I said only imagine that; no need to get into a state of shock!!
Would you have the baby or have an abortion? Would you think twice and be willing to change your lifestyle or still say that a child would be only in the way of your own happiness?
Now to make this more complicated: The baby was fathered by your true love, a handsome man (dunno what preferences you have but you can't imagine an even more hotter guy in the whole universe), with stable income, sincere intentions, who loves you to bits and wants this child with you. What would you do??
I would not be with a man who wanted children. So the hypothetical question has been answered.
During my 20's I developed a career... to me, this was my dream when leaving school. I wanted to make a success of myself.
Now in my 30's a am reaping the benefits of the life of luxury... now I have time for children.
Maqybe in my 40's when I have lived my life, travelled this glorious globe and completed my challenges (Walking the Great Wall is next) then maybe I might want to settle down... but who knows. Maybe when the body starts to tick tock away I may feel a sudden urge!
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Man Ferret: I would not be with a man who wanted children. So the hypothetical question has been answered.
No actually it's not. Things can happen; you can't plan everything in life.
So when you meet a man the first question is if he already underwent vasectomy just to rule out ANY chance of becoming pregnant??
And the other thing you could be with a guy for several years and suddenly he changes his mind about having kids. Would you leave him even if he was your soulmate (well in case you believe in something like that), the true love of your life, just because you don't want to fulfill him this request??
Well just give it some time. When the right guy shows up on your doorstep perhaps you change your mind. I would love to hear back from you then - WITH a baby pic!!
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: You know I heard similar things before from other women but the truth is you change once you deliver. You will bond with your child and you wanna take care of it as good as possible. You will not mind if your baby will burp and spits on your blouse cause you know it's necessary to burp. When your child gets sick you feel awful yourself and when it smiles at you you gonna be even more happy.
TL, this is one thing I hate. All your life you hear "wait till this and that and this and that will happen/you will change". It is not true with all people. I don't know why is that, I think I have always known myself so well so I can pretty much guess how I react on different things or will I change or not.
Having a baby did not change me, who I really am. Of course it changes my LIFE because a baby needs care and love. I still don't like poo&pee, excessive drool or whatever but hey when life is perfect Never. On the other side there are positive things.
And I think it is wrong to say to anyone "wait till you get your own it's then different" -because maybe it's not, not all moms OR dads are 101% happy with their decision of having kids -I've met those as well. Maybe someone will believe that it is all rosy and cosy when you get your own but reality is that to all of the people it's not. The result is we have dads who do not have any contact with their kids or neglecting moms.
Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: you never had the wish to marry, have children, grow old with this man and enjoy your grandchildren??
No. A partner to eventually grow old with, ok. But I never had the wish to have children or even grandchildren.
quote: For my part I had the urge to have a baby before I even left school at 16. I always loved kids, I had to look into every stroller and complement each mother on her newborn, I worked as a babysitter back home as I did in Egypt.
See, that's the difference! I was never interested in kids, never felt the remotest wish to have one of my own.
Almost all of my friends have kids; I have a little niece, my godchild, and a little nephew, and I love and adore both of them, but I wouldn't ever want to live the life my sister lives. For her it's perfectly right, for me it would be a nightmare.
I was an Au-pair for a year when I was younger, so I know what it's like to be at home with a couple of small kids all day long. And I spent a lot of time with kids recently, carrying the baby around, feeding it, babysitting etc. and that's perfectly fine. But it's nothing I would want for myself 24/7.
quote: For me my family really means everything. I would not want to have a different life. When I look at my children I am proud and delighted that I was able to bring them into this world. My single years are way behind me, I had enough fun and I enjoyed myself, my career is over - I had some pretty cool jobs - as I chose to stay home to look after our offspring.
That's great, and it's obvious that you made the right choice for yourself. But you seem to fail to understand or accept that there are people out there who simply don't feel that way, who want a different lifestyle. And that doesn't necessarily have to mean partying all the time or pursuing a high-powered carreer.
quote: You know I heard similar things before from other women but the truth is you change once you deliver. You will bond with your child and you wanna take care of it as good as possible. You will not mind if your baby will burp and spits on your blouse cause you know it's necessary to burp. When your child gets sick you feel awful yourself and when it smiles at you you gonna be even more happy.
I am well aware that people change once they have children of their own. I have lots of friends who were never particularly interested in having children, who didn't coo about babies, but once they had their own, they were very happy with it. But if the desire to procreate is not there at all, you simply shouldn't do it. I have no doubt that should I happen to get pregnant, I would love my child and be an ok mother, but it's nothing I wish for, or plan to do.
If I had a serious relationship with a man I dearly loved, and for him having a child would be a really big wish, I might reconsider -- although I would never agree to being a stay at home mother, that just wouldn't be right for me.
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: And the other thing you could be with a guy for several years and suddenly he changes his mind about having kids. Would you leave him even if he was your soulmate (well in case you believe in something like that), the true love of your life, just because you don't want to fulfill him this request??
TL you can't be serious - JUST to have a baby because the man wants so and the woman does not That is NOT a healthy start for a healthy family. She needs ALSO to want to have that child or otherwise - poor child.
Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
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Never had the urge to have children...they just happend... i was lucky in a way...i had my first at 18...and 2nd at 27....yes to the same man...but also never had the urge to marry...but then again...that could have something to do with the fact he was not the right man to marry...but the right man to have kids with...if that makes sense.....as much as i love kids....and other peoples more...because i can give them back...i think i am getting selfish in my old age....to go through all that again....makes me want to run for the hills......i have a sister...who point blank does not want children...so bloody what...it is her choice....if she ever decides to have children in her life...she borrows mine...also....she has her baby....gemma the rottie....each to their own i say....if it happens deal with it...if not live your life to the anyway...
Posts: 312 | From: my world | Registered: Sep 2007
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quote:Originally posted by cloudberry: TL, this is one thing I hate. All your life you hear "wait till this and that and this and that will happen/you will change". It is not true with all people. I don't know why is that, I think I have always known myself so well so I can pretty much guess how I react on different things or will I change or not.
Look during your life you are constantly changing, you are going through different phases. What clothes you like to wear now you probably don't like to wear in ten years.
Or the music you listened to as a teenager now you think "OMG I used to listen to that crap??!!"
There are women out who decided to get sterilized and then later on having a new husband etc. and wished they never did this permanent decision.
I personally realize the older I am getting now that I have to be thankful for having a husband and children because it means stability.
A work environment and a paycheck can never give you what a loving family environment can give you.
It's tough for many people - not only women but also many men - to let go their single status and decide to welcome parenthood. It means to give up freedom and you have to be responsible for someone else who's life depends on you.
I just think many people don't wanna take this risk anymore these days. Why making life more complicated they think I guess. It's just sad to see that f.e. in my country more and more people don't want kids and then there is my schoolmate who had an abortion because she could not afford the child (and she bitterly regrets of what happened) but she was unemployed already for so long and her husband's business went bad.
I believe having a child helps many people to actually grow up and see the world from a different angle - and it's not anymore ME, ME, ME, ME.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: And the other thing you could be with a guy for several years and suddenly he changes his mind about having kids. Would you leave him even if he was your soulmate (well in case you believe in something like that), the true love of your life, just because you don't want to fulfill him this request??
TL you can't be serious - JUST to have a baby because the man wants so and the woman does not That is NOT a healthy start for a healthy family. She needs ALSO to want to have that child or otherwise - poor child.
I would think it's a slow process and also if two people dearly love each other the next step would be to have a baby together (unless there are medical complications).
But I guess a crying, slobbering little individual is too difficult to handle for many. Well I am afraid kids don't come at a certain age!!! And then the thought of being responsible for this child for the following 18 years and perhaps even more must be a horror scenario on top of it.
My husband and I didn't plan any common future or even a child - we were just dating for several months and it happened. We could have easily said goodbye to each other but we didn't. We could have opted for abortion but we didn't. We had a good talk and we took it from there. And now here we are 10 years married with four children.
Truly to become a mother was the best thing I ever did.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: Look during your life you are constantly changing, you are going through different phases. What clothes you like to wear now you probably don't like to wear in ten years.
Or the music you listened to as a teenager now you think "OMG I used to listen to that crap??!!"
There are women out who decided to get sterilized and then later on having a new husband etc. and wished they never did this permanent decision.
I personally realize the older I am getting now that I have to be thankful for having a husband and children because it means [u]stability[/u].
A work environment and a paycheck can never give you what a loving family environment can give you.
It's tough for many people - not only women but also many men - to let go their single status and decide to welcome parenthood. It means to give up freedom and you have to be responsible for someone else who's life depends on you.
I just think many people don't wanna take this risk anymore these days. Why making life more complicated they think I guess. It's just sad to see that f.e. in my country more and more people don't want kids and then there is my schoolmate who had an abortion because she could not afford the child (and she bitterly regrets of what happened) but she was unemployed already for so long and her husband's business went bad.
I believe having a child helps many people to actually grow up and see the world from a different angle - and it's not anymore ME, ME, ME, ME.
Tigerweed:I believe having a child helps many people to actually grow up and see the world from a different angle - and it's not anymore ME, ME, ME, ME.
Sorry the way you describe the positives of motherhood, it sounds like ME, ME, ME, ME!!!! let alone it sounds juvenile, immature and irresponsible.
Tigerweed: It means to give up freedom and you have to be responsible for someone else who's life depends on you.
It means you depend on your children as a means to get a check from the US government and not to have to scramble to earn funds/paycheck to support your kids yourself. Seriously if you were a single parent and had to support these kids on your own you'd be on government funds or you wouldn't be so darn delighted with parenthood. Being military mom means you are free from responsiblity and the burden of having to support your children from a paycheck like everyone else.
How the hell can you compare mother hood choices to clothes and music? What happened to you when you were a teen that you never emotionally matured beyond the mindset of an adolescent?
Tigerweed:thankful for having a husband and children because it means [u]stability[/u].
Got news for you children and husband means instability because at any moment you could be the main breadwinner and you will have to be the paycheck earner. Thats instability, when you raise your kids in an environment plagued by crime and drug abuse which is prevalent on military bases in the US and the world over you are exposing children to some very grave and serious factors. Thats instability, no matter how much of my tax dollars you blow on magazines and DVDs.
Posts: 514 | Registered: Jul 2009
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u know sono tiger is not an american person ther for her children are not american so how can she get welfare for kids that are not in the us? now if she gets money from the military for her and her kids well thats fine cas her husband works there.y are u so jealous of tiger?i am sure u never heard her voice so i did and i assure u she is not an american.she has a strong german accent when she speaks.just cas she doesnt explain her whole life to u . u get obcessive and try making up stupid lives for her. ooo and her phone number was out of the country cas she called me right before she left for florida...so tell me sono how can she be here when her number was there??
-------------------- your ass is so tight when you fart only a dog can hear it.when you queef only a cat can hear that one. Posts: 9776 | From: You like If only mosquitoes sucked fat instead of blood. | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: Look during your life you are constantly changing, you are going through different phases. What clothes you like to wear now you probably don't like to wear in ten years.
Well, yes, of course ... it's called maturing /growing, and it's normal and healthy.
quote: There are women out who decided to get sterilized and then later on having a new husband etc. and wished they never did this permanent decision.
It's not a permant decision anymore, sterilization is reversible. I have a friend who is 24 and she really wants to have this done, but it's not allowed before you are 30.
But the same goes for men. There are many men who get sterilized and then meet a woman and want to have a child, it's not an exclusively female problem.
I also have a friend who never really wanted to have kids. He has two now and got sterlized after the second kid and never regretted it for a moment although he is married to a different woman now.
quote: I personally realize the older I am getting now that I have to be thankful for having a husband and children because it means stability.
Nothing wrong with that. But not everyone wants stability. Some people want to explore, learn, make new experiences and so on. Again -- we are all different and have different priorities.
quote: It's tough for many people - not only women but also many men - to let go their single status and decide to welcome parenthood. It means to give up freedom and you have to be responsible for someone else who's life depends on you.
Exactly. But why is it wrong if some people do not want to give up their freedom and don't want to be responsible for a person whose life depends on you? Why are you so insistent that this is a choice we all should make?
I really don't get it. I would never, ever criticize a friend for making the choice to have children and give up her freedom, after all this is a very personal decision noone else can make for you. So why should I accept criticism for making a different choice?
quote:It's just sad to see that f.e. in my country more and more people don't want kids
Why is that sad?
quote:I believe having a child helps many people to actually grow up and see the world from a different angle - and it's not anymore ME, ME, ME, ME.
I dare say I am pretty grownup by now even without the help of a child. And what's wrong with life being all about ME? Is that not another way of saying people without children are somehow selfish? Does it mean that if I don't focus on another human being and sacrifice many things for another human being my life is not worthy enough?
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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children and men do not make your life complete...you have to find that completeness yourself....then what else follows is a joy... and added bonus...
Posts: 312 | From: my world | Registered: Sep 2007
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quote:Originally posted by tina kamal: u know sono tiger is not an american person ther for her children are not american so how can she get welfare for kids that are not in the us? now if she gets money from the military for her and her kids well thats fine cas her husband works there.y are u so jealous of tiger?i am sure u never heard her voice so i did and i assure u she is not an american.she has a strong german accent when she speaks.just cas she doesnt explain her whole life to u . u get obcessive and try making up stupid lives for her. ooo and her phone number was out of the country cas she called me right before she left for florida...so tell me sono how can she be here when her number was there??
Its difficult for a person who collects disability benefits to understand.
Tigerweed's hubby is an MP on Camp LeJeune, the military won't pay for airfare so he can commute between North Carolina and Germany.
Most of her posts are within 3.30am and 11pm Eastern Standard time.
There are better things to aspire to than receiving government benefits, if you ever wanted anything more in life Tina you'd understand that.
There's Tigerweed's hubby's paycheck, but a majority of the funds a military family recieves on a military base is from Human Services, its bundled into "Defense budget" expenditures.
If you took the time to go down to a local library or university library that has a repository from the Library of Congress it will have all the legislature's documentation of our federal budget. Which is where a handful of my pro-peace classmates found data for a presentation project. Almost 80% of Tigerweed's expenses is labeled as "general assistance".
No reason to be jealous of someone who lives off of my tax dollars.
She doesn't have an education, she has 4 mouths to feed and after her hubby retires he will have no more than $480 some dollars in a retirement fund monthly to support them all. Thats no life to live, and as an MP after 16 years he has little chance of rank advancement.
I am sure he's promising her the moon, but its doesn't look good for Tigerweed.
Posts: 514 | Registered: Jul 2009
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thanks for your input so far. But let me get back at your question "Why it's sad".
I tell you why it's sad. You have less and less children in our country, the older folks become more and more. And they are whining about the children of today, oh god I don't know if you don't pay attention to it but since I have children myself I can hear it.
And it doesn't stop there. You have a much tougher challenge to find housing if you have kids. Some landlords prefer dogs over kids.
Women who have to work because they don't have another choice have also problems to find employment which matches with the KG or school time of their children.
When a child is getting sick it's usually the mother who will stay home unless there is a grandma. It's a wellknown fact that women with small children are having a tougher time to find a work. The usual job interview question was "Do you plan on getting pregnant?"
Not enough KGs in this country.
Not enough playgrounds in this country. I am thankful to live on an American base where I have several beautiful playgrounds to choose from. I consider my kids and me lucky. Germans have to come on post because they don't have playgrounds in their neighborhood.
There definitely more reasons I can add.... perhaps I will later on.
Whole Germany is going against families and children, there is not enough done and this is so wrong because children are indeed our future and in the big picture for every nation.
That's what I like about the Egyptians; kids mean for them little angels sent from heaven above. They would never say no to a child. Well you could argue now so many can't even properly afford them.
But that's what I would like to see here also in Germany again: more tolerance towards children. More people saying yes to a baby.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by tina kamal: u know sono tiger is not an american person ther for her children are not american so how can she get welfare for kids that are not in the us? now if she gets money from the military for her and her kids well thats fine cas her husband works there.y are u so jealous of tiger?i am sure u never heard her voice so i did and i assure u she is not an american.she has a strong german accent when she speaks.just cas she doesnt explain her whole life to u . u get obcessive and try making up stupid lives for her. ooo and her phone number was out of the country cas she called me right before she left for florida...so tell me sono how can she be here when her number was there??
Its difficult for a person who collects disability benefits to understand.
Tigerweed's hubby is an MP on Camp LeJeune, the military won't pay for airfare so he can commute between North Carolina and Germany.
Most of her posts are within 3.30am and 11pm Eastern Standard time.
There are better things to aspire to than receiving government benefits, if you ever wanted anything more in life Tina you'd understand that.
There's Tigerweed's hubby's paycheck, but a majority of the funds a military family recieves on a military base is from Human Services, its bundled into "Defense budget" expenditures.
If you took the time to go down to a local library or university library that has a repository from the Library of Congress it will have all the legislature's documentation of our federal budget. Which is where a handful of my pro-peace classmates found data for a presentation project. Almost 80% of Tigerweed's expenses is labeled as "general assistance".
No reason to be jealous of someone who lives off of my tax dollars.
She doesn't have an education, she has 4 mouths to feed and after her hubby retires he will have no more than $480 some dollars in a retirement fund monthly to support them all. Thats no life to live, and as an MP after 16 years he has little chance of rank advancement.
I am sure he's promising her the moon, but its doesn't look good for Tigerweed.
why are u getting disability? for yr mental illness? and y are u having a hard time understanding?and u know nothing about what her husband is getting nor do u know his rank.its none of yr business.also u always assume things and that is a rare part of yr disability. mental illness is a bad thing isnt it sono.. seems u are trying to bring everyone in on yr delusions.
Posts: 9776 | From: You like If only mosquitoes sucked fat instead of blood. | Registered: Jul 2007
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thanks for your input so far. But let me get back at your question "Why it's sad".
I tell you why it's sad. You have less and less children in our country, the older folks become more and more. And they are whining about the children of today, oh god I don't know if you don't pay attention to it but since I have children myself I can hear it.
And it doesn't stop there. You have a much tougher challenge to find housing if you have kids. Some landlords prefer dogs over kids.
Women who have to work because they don't have another choice have also problems to find employment which matches with the KG or school time of their children.
When a child is getting sick it's usually the mother who will stay home unless there is a grandma. It's a wellknown fact that women with small children are having a tougher time to find a work. The usual job interview question was "Do you plan on getting pregnant?"
Not enough KGs in this country.
Not enough playgrounds in this country. I am thankful to live on an American base where I have several beautiful playgrounds to choose from. I consider my kids and me lucky. Germans have to come on post because they don't have playgrounds in their neighborhood.
There definitely more reasons I can add.... perhaps I will later on.
Whole Germany is going against families and children, there is not enough done and this is so wrong because children are indeed our future and in the big picture for every nation.
That's what I like about the Egyptians; kids mean for them little angels sent from heaven above. They would never say no to a child. Well you could argue now so many can't even properly afford them.
But that's what I would like to see here also in Germany again: more tolerance towards children. More people saying yes to a baby.
quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: Look during your life you are constantly changing, you are going through different phases. What clothes you like to wear now you probably don't like to wear in ten years.
Or the music you listened to as a teenager now you think "OMG I used to listen to that crap??!!"
But those examples are insignificant, small things. I meant bigger stuff. But, btw I still have all my old cd's and do listen them often. Crap or not but it's fun to listen to them Actually I think music taste is something that lasts lifetime but with some new additions along the years. Like older people, my mom's generation likes tango and so on, hardly anyone likes disco even though it's modern thing. My mom and dad still listen to the same kind of music as they did when they were young. But like I said, music taste is insignificant stuff in life.
quote:There are women out who decided to get sterilized and then later on having a new husband etc. and wished they never did this permanent decision.
I am not sure what anyone should say here. I mean it doesn't much have to do with the issue. Sometimes even sterilization is not final - what I mean here is that birth control pill is 99% effective. If you do sterilization, then it was your decision and you have to deal with it. In Finland I think you have to have X children and be over certain age. If you are around 30 and do not have any kids, I guess they won't do it. Again, everyone has to carry their responsibility, if you do it then it has consequenses.
quote:I personally realize the older I am getting now that I have to be thankful for having a husband and children because it means stability.
You can have stability even if you don't have children. It has nothing to do with children but YOU. People can make their lives pretty much how they like, if you like stability you look for it.
quote:A work environment and a paycheck can never give you what a loving family environment can give you.
These are personal opinions. Just like you think about family, someone thinks about her or his career. Some people are fortunate enough to have a job or their own company they love. Not all jobs are cold and hard, think about nurses or similar (charity workers etc). And besides not all of us do it for the bigger paycheck. To me work has to be something I like because it takes at least 8 hours a day. World couldn't function as it is if all women would stay home. Many of today's achievements are because women worked outside of home. I'm sure many medicines are invented by women and so on.
quote:It's tough for many people - not only women but also many men - to let go their single status and decide to welcome parenthood. It means to give up freedom and you have to be responsible for someone else who's life depends on you.
Give up freedom - what are you talking about? Yes, maybe first 1-3 years are tougher and you can't really do just anything you desire. But one of my friends said it wisely, you can do anything with children just as you could when you were single. Of course if you liked partying every week, that's not really possible (and not advisable). And freedom is state of mind.
quote:I believe having a child helps many people to actually grow up and see the world from a different angle - and it's not anymore ME, ME, ME, ME. [/qb]
Hm, maybe so, it helps you grow but so does many other things. Like living in totally different culture And believe me, even singles or couples without children are not ME ME ME persons. I can't even imagine how anyone could think any other way. I have seen so many moms and dads that are so full of themselves and they think that the world spins around them and especially their children. So no, having a child does not mean you become less ME ME ME person if you are like that the begin with! Those moms and dads just will transfer this attitude to their children, most probably!
Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
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Rate Member posted 16 September, 2009 01:23 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just a little reminder for sono
Lol, DUMB BITCH get this:
$101000 per year, the first $80000 are non-taxable, also housing/utilities will fully be paid for by the US government, furthermore he'll receive his monthly LTC retirement from the army - starting very very soon. My husband can stay in this job for max. seven years.
So eat your heart out, SonoWhore !!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 25441 | From: Little A’ishah went missing in Egypt, please help to find her (see my profile)!! | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged |
Oh and it looks like hubby found our house tonight. I am so excited!! Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by tina kamal: why are u getting disability? for yr mental illness? and y are u having a hard time understanding?and u know nothing about what her husband is getting nor do u know his rank.its none of yr business.also u always assume things and that is a rare part of yr disability. mental illness is a bad thing isnt it sono.. seems u are trying to bring everyone in on yr delusions.
mental illness? don't have one, I do have a paycheck from showing up 40 some odd hours a week, a job in which I earned an associates and a bachelors degree in order to be elgible for, which is why I went.
I know where her husband is stationed, but I am waiting, waiting for some odd trolls to re-emerge and will unleash the crap Tigerweed unleashes on others.
Tina why would you lie about recieving disability payments to me and admit it to someone else?
Tina when are you going to get a job to pay down the child support you owe to below $5,000 so you can join Walid in Egypt? Or at least meet him for the first time?
I don't wallow in fantasies that make no sense and cannot be fullfilled I work on what I can accomplish, more accomplishes you make the more you can further accomplish.
Living on the internet waiting for the US government to change its passport eligibility laws isn't exactly sane behavior.
Posts: 514 | Registered: Jul 2009
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posted
We can see those ME ME ME parents in tabloids nowadays so often - or in the smaller news that never come to tabloids. Too many people nowadays do not care about their children. In a small country like Finland there used to be about 15000 cases where kids where taken in to custody, and I'm pretty sure the figure is going more up.
Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by tina kamal: why are u getting disability? for yr mental illness? and y are u having a hard time understanding?and u know nothing about what her husband is getting nor do u know his rank.its none of yr business.also u always assume things and that is a rare part of yr disability. mental illness is a bad thing isnt it sono.. seems u are trying to bring everyone in on yr delusions.
mental illness? don't have one, I do have a paycheck from showing up 40 some odd hours a week, a job in which I earned an associates and a bachelors degree in order to be elgible for, which is why I went.
I know where her husband is stationed, but I am waiting, waiting for some odd trolls to re-emerge and will unleash the crap Tigerweed unleashes on others.
Tina why would you lie about recieving disability payments to me and admit it to someone else?
Tina when are you going to get a job to pay down the child support you owe to below $5,000 so you can join Walid in Egypt? Or at least meet him for the first time?
I don't wallow in fantasies that make no sense and cannot be fullfilled I work on what I can accomplish, more accomplishes you make the more you can further accomplish.
Living on the internet waiting for the US government to change its passport eligibility laws isn't exactly sane behavior.
it seems u do have a mental illness to all of us..so instead on focusing on all of us here seek help . ooo and keep dreaming of that so called dream and job cas u aint got a job...
Posts: 9776 | From: You like If only mosquitoes sucked fat instead of blood. | Registered: Jul 2007
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As I stated before what those private contracting companies promise and what they will hire an MP is entirely different.
In order to qualify for a mortage you must have sound private employment. Which until he actually retires and lands private employment he will not be qualified.
This is the same mentality of chosing parenthood like clothes and music selections. Posts: 514 | Registered: Jul 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: That's what I like about the Egyptians; kids mean for them little angels sent from heaven above. They would never say no to a child. Well you could argue now so many can't even properly afford them.
Generally it is true. But unfortunately there are millions of children who face severe problems and there is hardly anyone helping them Violence, sexual abuse, they have to work young. And maybe the worst cases end up to be street children Again, not enough help for them. Those ME ME ME parents throw them on the street because maybe they found new spouse after divorce or something. And yes, western world has its own challenges with problems re children.
Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
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As I stated before what those private contracting companies promise and what they will hire an MP is entirely different.
In order to qualify for a mortage you must have sound private employment. Which until he actually retires and lands private employment he will not be qualified.
This is the same mentality of chosing parenthood like clothes and music selections.
No private contracting, my husband is not an MP either but whatever you say.
And I never mentioned we would buy a house here in Germany (our ultimate goal is Florida after all).
Monthy rental fee incl. utilities up to 3600 Euros is covered by the US Government and yes -we'll move to an expensive area!!!!
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by tina kamal: it seems u do have a mental illness to all of us..so instead on focusing on all of us here seek help . ooo and keep dreaming of that so called dream and job cas u aint got a job...
Tina unless you actually had a job over the last decade you are not one to decide if someone is employment worthy.
When you qualified for disability benefits you were legally declared unfit for work.
Posts: 514 | Registered: Jul 2009
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quote:Originally posted by tina kamal: it seems u do have a mental illness to all of us..so instead on focusing on all of us here seek help . ooo and keep dreaming of that so called dream and job cas u aint got a job...
Tina unless you actually had a job over the last decade you are not one to decide if someone is employment worthy.
When you qualified for disability benefits you were legally declared unfit for work.
keep trying looney tunes..keep trying u try so hard u acturaly believe yr own lies.. and u have no clue where all i have wordked.. so keep trying..
Posts: 9776 | From: You like If only mosquitoes sucked fat instead of blood. | Registered: Jul 2007
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As I stated before what those private contracting companies promise and what they will hire an MP is entirely different.
In order to qualify for a mortage you must have sound private employment. Which until he actually retires and lands private employment he will not be qualified.
This is the same mentality of chosing parenthood like clothes and music selections.
No private contracting, my husband is not an MP either but whatever you say.
And I never mentioned we would buy a house here in Germany (our ultimate goal is Florida after all).
Monthy rental fee incl. utilities up to 3600 Euros is covered by the US Government and yes -we'll move to an expensive area!!!!
I never stated you would buy a house in Germany, I should've been more clear.
They passed legislation in the 80s which required banks to allow military personal equal access to mortage loans unless they recently retired or left the service and do not have private employment lined up.
Seriously this is when Reagan created specific mortage loans just for military families since military bases in the US were filled to capacity. CLinton era brought in limits to these mortage plans so it didn't end up being a government handout, which it was treated as for several years.
You still believe these private contracting companies that promise $100,000 yearly salary is the salary for every job they fill.
I have classmates who have bachelors and master degrees, 10 years network engineering experience and 8 years of military experience who were promised that $100,000 yearly salary.
Sad they are only earning $65,000 max, thats with advanced degrees, experience and a much higher rank than your MP husband.
They could make more in the US in a civilian job for a mid-sized corporation.
You have no idea. Posts: 514 | Registered: Jul 2009
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posted
You simply have no idea of my husband's profession or better I should say you don't want to know.
And it should be of no interest to you: I already mentioned enough. So don't worry about my husband, his career, me staying at home, my education level, our marriage, our children, our finances etc etc.....
YOU GOTTA LIVE YOUR OWN LIFE - AND YOU DESPERATELY NEED TO MOVE ON WITH YOURS.
Good night everyone.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: You simply have no idea of my husband's profession or better I should say you don't want to know.
And it should be of no interest to you: I already mentioned enough. So don't worry about my husband, his career, me staying at home, my education level, our marriage, our children, our finances etc etc.....
YOU GOTTA LIVE YOUR OWN LIFE - AND YOU DESPERATELY NEED TO MOVE ON WITH YOURS.
Good night everyone.
And yet when I don't post on this forum for several months you continue to rag on about the circumstances in my life.
You make this whiney plea after posting my former address, full name and former phone number over 15 times in two weeks and you want amnesty?
Tigerweed you don't have a life, you have a wishlist that is comparable to many teenage single moms on welfare, with the matching maturity level.
Posts: 514 | Registered: Jul 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: You simply have no idea of my husband's profession or better I should say you don't want to know.
And it should be of no interest to you: I already mentioned enough. So don't worry about my husband, his career, me staying at home, my education level, our marriage, our children, our finances etc etc.....
YOU GOTTA LIVE YOUR OWN LIFE - AND YOU DESPERATELY NEED TO MOVE ON WITH YOURS.
Good night everyone.
And yet when I don't post on this forum for several months you continue to rag on about the circumstances in my life.
You make this whiney plea after posting my former address, full name and former phone number over 15 times in two weeks and you want amnesty?
Tigerweed you don't have a life, you have a wishlist that is comparable to many teenage single moms on welfare, with the matching maturity level.
Oh and that's why you are so focused right now at least on the lives of ten other members here on this forum and on smuckers' life - even when this member already left the forum over a year ago BECAUSE OF YOU????
You are nothing more than the pathetic clown of this forum, nobody wants to have anything to do with you and I am afraid you are not even entertaining. You just come here daily to abuse and bully other people because your own life has nothing good to offer to you and this makes you so pIssed.
IMHO eat ****, sonomod, you don't deserve nothing better than that. If that's what you want to do be my guest ..... anytime.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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thanks for your input so far. But let me get back at your question "Why it's sad".
I tell you why it's sad. You have less and less children in our country, the older folks become more and more. And they are whining about the children of today, oh god I don't know if you don't pay attention to it but since I have children myself I can hear it.
And it doesn't stop there. You have a much tougher challenge to find housing if you have kids. Some landlords prefer dogs over kids.
Women who have to work because they don't have another choice have also problems to find employment which matches with the KG or school time of their children.
When a child is getting sick it's usually the mother who will stay home unless there is a grandma. It's a wellknown fact that women with small children are having a tougher time to find a work. The usual job interview question was "Do you plan on getting pregnant?"
Not enough KGs in this country.
Not enough playgrounds in this country. I am thankful to live on an American base where I have several beautiful playgrounds to choose from. I consider my kids and me lucky. Germans have to come on post because they don't have playgrounds in their neighborhood.
There definitely more reasons I can add.... perhaps I will later on.
Whole Germany is going against families and children, there is not enough done and this is so wrong because children are indeed our future and in the big picture for every nation.
That's what I like about the Egyptians; kids mean for them little angels sent from heaven above. They would never say no to a child. Well you could argue now so many can't even properly afford them.
But that's what I would like to see here also in Germany again: more tolerance towards children. More people saying yes to a baby.
Addition:
"Safeguarding the future - supporting families and children
A society without children has no future. Not enough children are being born in Germany. We want to encourage families to have more children, and we want a stronger role for the family in society. The family is the arena where people learn to take responsibility for themselves and each other. The family is the bedrock of a liberal society.
We want to support families and make their lives easier. We will provide tax breaks for childcare and introduce a parental allowance. To enable parents to achieve a better work-life balance, we will improve the range of childcare services and expand the provision of full-day care. The family embraces all the generations. The multigenerational family offers the chance to take responsibility for each other. We will develop models which enable several generations to live together and assume responsibility for each other."
Die totale Verarschung. Viele vielversprechende Worte aber nichts passiert. Der Zug ist in Deutschland bereits abgefahren; die haetten sich viel eher Gedanken machen und grundlegende Aenderungen herbeifuehren sollen. Ich weiss, der Osten war auch nicht perfekt, aber da hat wirklich der Begriff Familie ganz oben gestanden und es wurde etwas dafuer getan.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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As I stated before what those private contracting companies promise and what they will hire an MP is entirely different.
In order to qualify for a mortage you must have sound private employment. Which until he actually retires and lands private employment he will not be qualified.
This is the same mentality of chosing parenthood like clothes and music selections.
No private contracting, my husband is not an MP either but whatever you say.
And I never mentioned we would buy a house here in Germany (our ultimate goal is Florida after all).
Monthy rental fee incl. utilities up to 3600 Euros is covered by the US Government and yes -we'll move to an expensive area!!!!
I never stated you would buy a house in Germany, I should've been more clear.
They passed legislation in the 80s which required banks to allow military personal equal access to mortage loans unless they recently retired or left the service and do not have private employment lined up.
Seriously this is when Reagan created specific mortage loans just for military families since military bases in the US were filled to capacity. CLinton era brought in limits to these mortage plans so it didn't end up being a government handout, which it was treated as for several years.
You still believe these private contracting companies that promise $100,000 yearly salary is the salary for every job they fill.
I have classmates who have bachelors and master degrees, 10 years network engineering experience and 8 years of military experience who were promised that $100,000 yearly salary.
Sad they are only earning $65,000 max, thats with advanced degrees, experience and a much higher rank than your MP husband.
They could make more in the US in a civilian job for a mid-sized corporation.
You have no idea.
Insted of focusing on everybody else's job situation - shouldnt you focus a bit on getting your on life on track?? Get a job and get off welfare insted of spending half your life online on different forums and cybersex.
Posts: 1325 | From: For tooti http://www.csa.gov.uk/ | Registered: May 2009
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posted
just a quick skim but am I really seeing sono of all people giving advice on motherhood??
Some people dont feel they want or need children to complete themselves or their lives, same as some people dont feel they need a man to complete them or the same as some people dont want to drive a car, some choose a bicycle or choose to walk. We are all different, Alhamdulillah, thats what makes a world. No one should need to justify why they dont drive, marry, have kids or eat molokhia, its personal choice!.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Heaven forbid we use the freedom of choice card.
I would never eat molokhia, I will never drive a car, never have and have no desire to and I don't want a baby.
If I was with a guy who after several years changed his stance on wanting a family I would leave him so he could meet someone else and have one.
We do all change as we age... now I am in a position to enjoy my life more than ever i am even more adamant I do not wish to change my fab little world and have children.
When I went to a class reunion last month a lot of the Mums said they actually wished they had my life as they feel they have done nothing other than be a Mum... guess pity works both ways.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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posted
Some people just don't want children, I don't understand how that can be hard for anyone to grasp. Every one is different, with different goals, aims and desires in life, who is to say one is wrong and the other is right? And, if people who don't want children had them anyway, you would get more lowlifes like Sono, who find parenthood such an inconvenience that they prefer to just ship their baby off as if it was worthless baggage. Besides, the world is overpopulated as it is, if everyone felt obliged to have a child, then within no time the government would have to have a "child limit" per family.
Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
i was 16 when i got pregnant with my son.and scared to death so i did not want him and there for i gave him to my mom to raise.cas i do not believe in abortions.if it wasnt for my mom i do not know what i would have done with him.
-------------------- your ass is so tight when you fart only a dog can hear it.when you queef only a cat can hear that one. Posts: 9776 | From: You like If only mosquitoes sucked fat instead of blood. | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
That is a good point there TK... being a single Mum with no family support must be sooooooo difficult. You are very lucky to have had your mum there to help you.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Man Ferret: When I went to a class reunion last month a lot of the Mums said they actually wished they had my life as they feel they have done nothing other than be a Mum... guess pity works both ways.
But they could have done something else too. Complaining won't get you anywhere, if you want something you need to act. I'm planning home based job so I can do something while taking care of my child. I'm not a mom who can stay home "doing nothing" but he's too small to be put in a nursery as well.
If they didn't mean work - well then just see what's happening around you, take kids and go out!
Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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- JUST to have a baby because the man wants so and the woman does not 
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Violence, sexual abuse, they have to work young. And maybe the worst cases end up to be street children 
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