Firstly, I am sorry if I offend anyone with this poll.
I recently married an egyptian man, whom I love with all my heart and cant see myself ever being without. He is Muslim. And I am Christian. Before getting married and throughout our relationship, I never thought about religion, it has been in my life, but never been a priority of mine to follow it, and therefore the fact that he is muslim never mattered to me. At the end of the day, we are both human, and we fell in love, what does religion have to do with it?!
However, I have now learned that I am pregnant. I dont want my children, specifically if I have a girl, to be muslim. Im having a hard time trying to convince my husband that the best thing to do is wait until they are old enough to understand religion, and let our child/children choose for themselves. I am very fond of this recent campaign: http://www.humanism.org.uk/billboards
My husband is currently applying for a settlement visa to the UK. My child will be raised in England. I dont want my child to miss out on opportunities due to religion.
Does anyone have any advice or any experience on this subject?? Please help, my head is in pieces.
My husband is now saying if my child is not raised muslim, then he will reject it, and is telling me i should have an abortion instead. Im confused. I would literally do anything for him, even though i shouldnt, but when it comes to this, im not so sure i can change my mind.
posted
I just wanted to say that I think his words to you are very harsh. Have an abortion if the baby won't be raised Muslim!!!! That makes no sense at all. I really wish you luck and hope you work out a solution.
Posts: 1626 | From: whatever, wherever | Registered: Jul 2008
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I like the idea behind this campaign. But really it should read: DON'T BRAINWASH ME instead of Don't LABEL Me.
Posts: 1626 | From: whatever, wherever | Registered: Jul 2008
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quote:Originally posted by LMK2010: My husband is now saying if my child is not raised muslim, then he will reject it, and is telling me i should have an abortion instead. Im confused.
LMK2010
Tell him if he wants to come and live in a multicultural western society then he better start changing his attitudes fast, if not you will reject him and he can stay right where he is.
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Any guy tells me to abort a baby, he is the one I would abort. Calls himself a muslim?
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Thats an awful thing for your husband to say and I do really feel for you. One thing I would ask is did neither of you raise this subject before marriage? Religion is an important part of life to the majority of Egyptians be they Muslim or Christian and I'm surprised this topic hasn't arisen before you became pregnant.
Personally I don't agree with letting children choose their own religion because from the cases of this I have seen it only results in confusion. I know of several people who have parents of two different religions and these people don't class themselves as anything. Some end up rejecting it entirely. At the end of the day it's a personal choice but I think children need to be given a set path to follow initially and if they come to change their minds about it when they are old enough to handle the decision then fair enough but too much choice leads to confusion.
Posts: 500 | From: United Arab Emirates | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
I can't believe he said that! Do you really want to be married to a guy who will only love his child if he/she follows his faith?? What other things in the future will he demand of the child? "If you don't study this I will disown you","if you don't marry this person I will disown you", etc. I'm an atheist, and still my muslim husband has agreed that our baby will be tought both points of views (plus other religions). Whatever Zain will be, he'll be. In fact, I just asked Sam if there is anything Zain could do that would make him disown him- the answer was very much a no.
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posted
I disagree DG. I think there are many things that two parents do not agree on, and the result isn't the child going nuts. Children are amazing at adapting, esp when that is all they have known. They accept it, and process it as normal. Having two parents of different faiths will actually confuse a child as much as having one parent like coffee, and the other hate it, and they will also (esp at a young age) care as little about it as they would that. I really don't understand the need to put such a thing on a child. If one parent followed labour, and the other tories, is there a big thing about needing to set one for the child? No, he/she will eventually pick up both, and will either begin shifting to one, or regject them (and if that happens, so what? Their life, their choices). In my view we are here to educate our children, not tell them what they are.
-------------------- Another one.... Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
I don't think the result is the child going nuts. I just think it ends in confusion. You can hardly compare coffee to religion!! Politicis is a different kettle of fish too. Children are not involved in politics and are not expected to make a choice regarding politics.You don't have the right to vote until you reach 18. When you are seen by society as an adult so therefore are able to make your own mind up.
Most people learn about religion from an early age and the vast majority of children will follow their parents faith unless they decide of their own accord to change faith or reject it at a later time
In my own case, there is no doubt that our baby will be baptised in the Coptic Church and raised to follow it. We agreed on this well before we ever got married. I think it depends on your beliefs. I was raised Christian although it was C of E. I have since been baptised into the Coptic Church and there is very little difference anyway I believe in Christianity so I'm not compromising anything.
WK I know in your case you are aethist so if you give Zain your own points of view, ie you don't believe in God dont you think that will totally conflict his mind when Sam tells him about God and Islam? It's not even like you can compare Aethism to any religion because it's rejecting all religion entirely.
Were you raised according to any religion as a child or were you given your own choice WK?
Posts: 500 | From: United Arab Emirates | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
Before I converted to Islam I spoke to my husband about the faith of any children. If he had threatened me or insulted me then I would have dropped him like a bag of dung. It sounds like your husband isnt worth the WORD father!
Posts: 195 | From: Nottingham, England | Registered: Jan 2009
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posted
I'm sorry your husband is being so cruel. He has no right to say what he said and to expect you to abort. That being said, you should not have married a Muslim man if you didn't want to raise a Muslim child. Not every Muslim man expects his child to be raised Muslim but most do and even if they aren't religious, they will still expect it. That does not give him the right to be cruel and hateful to you and your unborn child. I feel as if you're in for a world of trouble and I'm very sorry about that. If I had to give advice at this point and if you're insistant upon raising a non-Muslim child, I'd suggest you cut ties with your husband and raise the child on your own. His attitude will most likely not change.
Posts: 18 | Registered: Apr 2010
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quote:Originally posted by LMK2010: Hello everyone!
Firstly, I am sorry if I offend anyone with this poll.
I recently married an egyptian man, whom I love with all my heart and cant see myself ever being without. He is Muslim. And I am Christian. Before getting married and throughout our relationship, I never thought about religion, it has been in my life, but never been a priority of mine to follow it, and therefore the fact that he is muslim never mattered to me. At the end of the day, we are both human, and we fell in love, what does religion have to do with it?!
However, I have now learned that I am pregnant. I dont want my children, specifically if I have a girl, to be muslim. Im having a hard time trying to convince my husband that the best thing to do is wait until they are old enough to understand religion, and let our child/children choose for themselves. I am very fond of this recent campaign: http://www.humanism.org.uk/billboards
My husband is currently applying for a settlement visa to the UK. My child will be raised in England. I dont want my child to miss out on opportunities due to religion.
Does anyone have any advice or any experience on this subject?? Please help, my head is in pieces.
My husband is now saying if my child is not raised muslim, then he will reject it, and is telling me i should have an abortion instead. Im confused. I would literally do anything for him, even though i shouldnt, but when it comes to this, im not so sure i can change my mind.
Thanks
LMK2010
Why don't you want you child to be raised Muslims? What exactly do you think she/he will miss out on?
Posts: 1044 | Registered: Nov 2009
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posted
Two, as previous i really didnt want to offend anyone with this and im sorry if i have.
In the UK you have to be a certain faith to get into the best state schools for example. I wont go into other reasons but i believe that i had an amazing childhood, and I was brought up practising my religion and went to a very religious school. I just think if i had children of the muslim faith it would alter their childhood experience. I also dont agree with a lot of the muslim faith. Particularly for women. I dont believe a woman should ever have to cover herself, I understand it is a form of protection. But in my mind, a man should just be able to control himself. Also, I am aware that muslim women are conformed to have to follow what their husband says and I dont think I would want my daughter to be in a religion as to where when she is older she would have to be ruled by a man. I come from a religion and a country where we have equality, and my husband is very much aware that I would never change my ways for him, I am independant and most certainly not a muslim, therefore I am not ever going to be controled by him, if I can help it anyway. Unfortunately no, we didnt discuss this before the marriage, it was very much a whirlwind, we fell in love and got married. I suppose you can say I was irresponsible, but I cant turn back the clock now so I have to deal with as much as I can.
My husband is in Egypt whilst I await his Visa application to be completed. I have told him abortion is not an option. He now says we cant be together unless I accept that his children will be muslim.
Im heartbroken , confused, and really dont know what to do!!!
Posts: 6 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2010
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posted
YOU HAVE A CHILD TO BE A FATHER TO. EVEN IF YOU DONT WANT TO BE MY HUSBAND1 Maged Kashef says: OK MAY BE U DONT UNDERSTAND Wish This Life Wasnt SOOOO HARD, says: YOU STILL HAVE TO BE A FATHER TO THIS CHILD. YOU CANT IGNORE THAT YOU HAVE A CHILD COMING Maged Kashef says: WATEVA CHILD U HAVE WILL BE MUSLIM OR LIVE WITH IT ALONE IN ENGLAND BYE Wish This Life Wasnt SOOOO HARD, says: WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT TO ME I THOUGHT YOU LOVED ME
an msn conversation that is currently taking place.
Posts: 6 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2010
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quote:Originally posted by LMK2010: Two, as previous i really didnt want to offend anyone with this and im sorry if i have.
In the UK you have to be a certain faith to get into the best state schools for example. I wont go into other reasons but i believe that i had an amazing childhood, and I was brought up practising my religion and went to a very religious school. I just think if i had children of the muslim faith it would alter their childhood experience. I also dont agree with a lot of the muslim faith. Particularly for women. I dont believe a woman should ever have to cover herself, I understand it is a form of protection. But in my mind, a man should just be able to control himself. Also, I am aware that muslim women are conformed to have to follow what their husband says and I dont think I would want my daughter to be in a religion as to where when she is older she would have to be ruled by a man. I come from a religion and a country where we have equality, and my husband is very much aware that I would never change my ways for him, I am independant and most certainly not a muslim, therefore I am not ever going to be controled by him, if I can help it anyway. Unfortunately no, we didnt discuss this before the marriage, it was very much a whirlwind, we fell in love and got married. I suppose you can say I was irresponsible, but I cant turn back the clock now so I have to deal with as much as I can.
My husband is in Egypt whilst I await his Visa application to be completed. I have told him abortion is not an option. He now says we cant be together unless I accept that his children will be muslim.
Im heartbroken , confused, and really dont know what to do!!!
These are your understanding of Islam, the question is does he think along the same line? Does he believe that Hijab is mandatory? Does he believe that a woman should follow her husband? And so on. Do you believe his version of Islam is one that you do not agree with. And if so, how will you continue to live with him regardless of any children.
Posts: 1044 | Registered: Nov 2009
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posted
Yeah he thinks that his religion is better than mine,. he isnt that religious himself though. he drinks, smokes, never prays, when i met him he had a bad history of sexual partners, so really, what is he doing, he isnt a good example of a muslim, why would i want my child to be raised like him? I am not a perfect example of a christian either dont get me wrong. Which is why I want my children to choose to follow a faith if they want to, not because they are born into one and made to follow it.
Posts: 6 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2010
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posted
Hon, please don't post your MSN conversations on here. It's so personal. I don't like the tone on both ends of this conversation. Your tone is very demanding, confrontational and honestly, a bit childish. Perhaps you should give him some space so he can really think about what he wants. You have the child growing in your body so your part in this is all set. He needs to come to terms with his part. People tend to say terrible things when they're angry, upset, and when they feel their back is against the wall. You're making a huge decision for him in saying he can't raise his child as a Muslim just the same as he's pressuring you to raise the child as a Muslim. I know you're extremely upset but this is no way to handle the situation. Posts: 18 | Registered: Apr 2010
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quote:Originally posted by LMK2010: YOU HAVE A CHILD TO BE A FATHER TO. EVEN IF YOU DONT WANT TO BE MY HUSBAND1 Maged Kashef says: OK MAY BE U DONT UNDERSTAND Wish This Life Wasnt SOOOO HARD, says: YOU STILL HAVE TO BE A FATHER TO THIS CHILD. YOU CANT IGNORE THAT YOU HAVE A CHILD COMING Maged Kashef says: WATEVA CHILD U HAVE WILL BE MUSLIM OR LIVE WITH IT ALONE IN ENGLAND BYE Wish This Life Wasnt SOOOO HARD, says: WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT TO ME I THOUGHT YOU LOVED ME
an msn conversation that is currently taking place.
Tell him to eff off... your baby is your number one priority and you too have a say in their upbringing, in every aspect.
Unless you want a controlling narrow minded arsehole controlling you and the child's life!!!
He seems like such a nice guy too Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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posted
This is my understanding of Islam because this is what he has told me. So he believes it all.
Regardless of children, he knows I will never become Muslim, so as a christian woman I will never have to and never want to follow such rules.
Posts: 6 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2010
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posted
desolation row... your right im sorry my head is in such a messed up place right now that i wasnt thinking when i posted part of our conversation.
i probably am being childish, im upset. im only 22 and i cant confide in my friends about this because they will all tell me the same thing, let him leave me or leave him etc. they wont understand that i love him its not that easy.
i just came on here for help and advice, as i cant really ask my friends, and my parents are completely unaware of the situation. like i said im in a messed up place. i had my whole life ahead of me, and now i practically have nothing, but a baby growing inside me that will more than likely grow up without a father.
Posts: 6 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2010
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posted
Are you ok with raising your child alone? If so, try really hard to push aside your feelings for this man and cut all ties. How old are you both? From your MSN conversation it doesn't sound like either of you are very mature. He does sound like a hypocrite wanting the child to be raised Muslim if he doesn't practice but he may want this because of his family or because he believes that one day he may practice his religion. It's a hard call. I don't believe in keeping a child from his/her father or mother but if you feel he can't be a good father and if you think the religion issues will be too huge it may be best to cut ties now. I really wish people would think more of the future before doing something as huge as bringing another human being into the world. Posts: 18 | Registered: Apr 2010
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posted
You know I have a habit of not reading the entire thread and just now noticed that you posted a private chat with his name. Let's face it, you're both loonies.
Posts: 1044 | Registered: Nov 2009
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quote:Originally posted by LMK2010: Yeah he thinks that his religion is better than mine,. he isnt that religious himself though. he drinks, smokes, never prays, when i met him he had a bad history of sexual partners, so really, what is he doing, he isnt a good example of a muslim, why would i want my child to be raised like him?
why would you want your child raised BY him?
quote:I am not a perfect example of a christian either dont get me wrong. Which is why I want my children to choose to follow a faith if they want to, not because they are born into one and made to follow it.
looking at your pm you posted and a few other bits, this guy is a visa hunter and only cares about #1. Dump him.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
I agree DR... procreation has no meaning, creating a life demands responsibility and ideally 2 parents kinda singing off the same hymn sheet!!!!
You guys clearly knew each other so well that this situation has no planning and instead of bringing you together has divided you!!!
Grow the hell up, make a decision based on the best outcome for the child and snap into reality. The internet will not give you answers...
Please though, for the sake of my sanity and yours, don't feel alone and if you seriously want to chat about anything talk to someone who can help you in reality away from here.
You aren't alone and your life isn't over. Please, just don't give up or give in for the fewr you have nothing more.
Really... dammit!!! I wish i could help folk more in situations like this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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This is my understanding of Islam because this is what he has told me.
Exactly. It is his understanding. But just because that's what the tells you, it doesn't mean that's *Islam*.
However, the point is that he believes this crap, whether it is true or not is beside the point. Personally, I would not be able to continue living with (and loving) a man who believes his kid will be worthless if it can not be labelled *Muslim* to begin with, who believes he has the right to tell you to end a human life based on his narrow-minded view of the world. That would be the ultimate dealbreaker for me, it says a lot about the person's character and values.
Also, I wouldn't be able to live with a man who disagrees with what I consider fundmental values. For example that God created men and women with equal rights and none better than the other. Like you, I would not want my daughter to grow up learning that her gender is a constant issue and would limit her pursuing her happiness in any way. I would not want a kid of any gender to grow up believing that the husband is the decision maker just because he has a Y chromosome. Or that modesty is defined by dress rather than behaviour.
From what I have observed over the years, there are many women like you who have not really thought about those things before marriage; and often they start becoming an issue later in the relationship, or when children are there.
I understand you are confused and shocked and sad because everything you planned for your life suddenly seems to be crashing. And of course the realization that you and your husband might not be compatible after all might be very hurtful. You don't stop loving someone right away, even when you realize he is not really the kind of person you thought he was.
You say your friends tell you to leave him and don't understand that you love him and that it's not easy. Are they actually saying that, or is this how you perceive it? If you were my friend in real life, I would advise you to leave the guy too -- in fact I had friends who have been in very similar situations -- but I would never try telling you that it's easy, or that you are crazy / weak / etc. for not stopping loving him right away. I believe those things need time.
But you wrote an important thing after this -- that you have a child growing inside of you whose welfare you now have to consider beside your own. And while that might be overwhelming, it will most likely give you more strength in the long run.
Face it -- this quy is a jerk and a hypocrite! You are young, and your life will not be over when you leave him. In the long run, it will be better.
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
"Waves hand in the air" raising a baby who's father is a muslim from Egypt, all by myself.
Mine too gave me the "I didn't ask to have a baby" speech, suggested we "bring zah baby down" (abort) and really it is all about control. My guy already had his eyes on the door, and another woman in his head when I fell pregnant. I gave it a go in the hopes that he would "Come to his senses" re-embrace his faith and "Man up" and honor his committment.
He didn't, and I have a son who will be 3 in July. I had him baptized on Mothers Day 2008 with all my family present, and him off doing whatever. When I told him he said he was happy to have religion in A's life. He also says that regardless of that the boy is muslim. My x drinks, smokes, sleeps around, and is not a devout muslim, I call him a "Cafeteria Muslim" he takes a little of this, and a little of that, throws out what he doesn't want, and packages it all as faithful. I attend church every week, and teach sunday school, our son is with me and loves it, it provides structure, family and a network of fellow Christians who believe in me.
But I'm doing it on my own. You can too. You are 22 and soooo very young, I don't condone abortion, but I also know how to mind my own backyard before I go minding yours. Only God knows what is coming in your life. Trust Him.
And the advice I'd give you about your "hubby" is to stop talking to him for a week. He isn't going to change by your will, and he isn't going to do anything he doesn't want to. If he is willing to use a baby as an excuse to leave you.. then he was leaving anyway. You are in the right spot to get support here, and there is a human library of experience here. What are you prepared to accept in your life? How strong are you? Can I share with you how much FUN it is to be a Mother? How beautiful my little one is? It is a worrisome thing that the man you chose to believe in, is being so callow. But if you think back, he has ALWAYS been this same person, and he for the most part will ALWAYS be this same guy. You have a decision to make about who you want in your life and who you want your child to take after. If he bails now, on an issue as esoteric as this one, that kid is already better off without him. You don't deserve any unkindess at all. Stay strong, and find support.
Posts: 1071 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
LMK2010, it's the norm that the child you will deliver will be raised as a Muslim when you are married to a Muslim unless you have a very tolerant guy next to you who doesn't care much about his religion or any religion in this matter.
You know I gotta tell you that you went blindly into this marriage. You obviously just picked what you like of him. But first of all he's Muslim and the most important part of his life is his religion. So when you tell him you don't want your child to be raised Muslim it's like kicking his believes with dirty shoes.
"I come from a religion and a country where we have equality, and my husband is very much aware that I would never change my ways for him, I am independant and most certainly not a muslim, therefore I am not ever going to be controled by him, if I can help it anyway."
If you already now feel this way then it's better you make a stop now before you get yourself into a real disaster once your husband arrived.
Good luck with your pregnancy.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Dubai Girl: Thats an awful thing for your husband to say and I do really feel for you. One thing I would ask is did neither of you raise this subject before marriage? Religion is an important part of life to the majority of Egyptians be they Muslim or Christian and I'm surprised this topic hasn't arisen before you became pregnant.
Personally I don't agree with letting children choose their own religion because from the cases of this I have seen it only results in confusion. I know of several people who have parents of two different religions and these people don't class themselves as anything. Some end up rejecting it entirely. At the end of the day it's a personal choice but I think children need to be given a set path to follow initially and if they come to change their minds about it when they are old enough to handle the decision then fair enough but too much choice leads to confusion.
quote:Originally posted by Cosmogirl: And the advice I'd give you about your "hubby" is to stop talking to him for a week. He isn't going to change by your will, and he isn't going to do anything he doesn't want to. If he is willing to use a baby as an excuse to leave you.. then he was leaving anyway. Y
LMK2010 read Cosmo's words above a hundred times over and get them fixed in your brain.....they are so true in this situation even though very hard to take on board.
Did you meet your husband on holiday? and did you know him for very long before marrying him?
It just seems odd that you did not discuss religion before getting married. Without understanding something about Islam it is impossible to understand a muslim husband. Islam is a way of life and you can't just set it aside and think you can just take the man only without his religion.
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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Im new on here and read your post and really empathised with you. My advice to you is a.s.a.p pick the phone up and contact the british embassy and cancel your support as a spouse! Why? because of his behaviour and attitude! A baby makes or breaks a relationship and your's is not looking very strong atm.If he is like this know whats he gonna be like with a few hours sleep and a hormonal wife (all women are after giving birth) A relationship should be equal and open to discussion not dictation!
Religion, I believe that all children need boundaries and guidence and one religion is not more superior over another!! From a personal example my daughter is neither christian or muslim instead she knows about both religions e.g she celebrates xmas, easter ect but she also understands Ramadan and all the other Islam traditions and customs etc. I think personally denying a child the chance to explore both religions is restrictive, in the sense of education and life learning.
Your child of course needs to understand islam, her father is muslim and part of her identity like it or not, however she does not have to be muslim or follow any other religion for that matter.I belive that children should choose their own religion, and respect all religions.
I was eighteen when i had my daughter, and being a parent is hard and you gotta make decisions for your baby/children however to be honest you dont need to make any decision right now at this moment in regards to religion. If your husband really won't negoiate at this early stage, then whats it's gonna be like when your child grows up? And if you do "give" in and agree that the child will be muslim, will you enforce it on your child e.g not eating pork - fine but what about eating ham sandwiches at bday party's will you simply say no she cant she is muslim or will u let her and hope her dad dosent find out? thus leaving u in a postion?
Any way these are my thoughts and hope they help, or raise a few thoughts about it. However try not to worry to much at the moment, stress and worry are not good factors when pregnant.
posted
I just noticed here, everyone states their comments as if continuing the pregnancy is the only option.
She's 22 and quite alone, why should she be obligated to continue the pregnancy?
Even if he wasn't cramming his religion down his unborn baby's throat, there would be other issues to overcome.
Posts: 2280 | Registered: Oct 2009
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How come we're getting so many newbies nowadays ?? mainly UK. Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
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I am sorry to say this and I could be completely wrong but if his attitude now is that it is better his child be dead than not be raised Muslim then I would have strong concerns that if you work this out now it could raise its head again later.
There was an Egyptian born dad here that killed his two teenage daughters because they were too westernized and were talking to boys. Not that this would happen but you should be aware that it has happened.
Personally, I am very surprised that he did not discuss his beliefs with you before marriage.
-------------------- "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." (Sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton) Leap and the Net will Appear. Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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posted
LMK I would suggest you do this alone- he will become more and more demanding, and if he is this bad now, just think of how he will be when the baby is here and follows the "western life".
For roughly the first half of my pregnancy I thought I was going it alone (at the time I was also 22, now I'm 23 with a perfect lil boy). And yes, it was hard and scary, but I knew I just had to get on with it, like many women have. In England there are so many things to help you (govenment, baby groups and hopefully a supporting family). So if you wish to continue with the pregnancy, it is not the end of the world being alone.
Right, now DG (in advance, I am in no way attacking, every one raises their child how they feel best, and that takes many different forms).
quote: I don't think the result is the child going nuts. I just think it ends in confusion. You can hardly compare coffee to religion!! Politicis is a different kettle of fish too. Children are not involved in politics and are not expected to make a choice regarding politics.You don't have the right to vote until you reach 18. When you are seen by society as an adult so therefore are able to make your own mind up.
We see it as totally different, but children don't. What choices do they make about religion at a young age? None, they just follow whatever they are told. If a child is born by two parents who have different ideas, they will see that as normal. Just like a child born to a third wife sees that as normal, born in a cult, born to travelers, born to a gay couple, and so on.
quote: Most people learn about religion from an early age and the vast majority of children will follow their parents faith unless they decide of their own accord to change faith or reject it at a later time
I agree, which is why I think it is so important the the child has options. Comp schools in england teach three+ religions, not giving any a favourite, the teacher isn't even allowed to say what religion they are in case it is seen as influencing the child. Children are not getting confused at these lessons that Islam is taught side by side with Christianity, even when they come from devout christian family. If a christian child saw a muslim praying, and asks his parents about it, the parents are unlikely to say "He is just being silly and wrong, we are right", they will probably explain how people in the world have different beliefs. That doesn't confuse the child. Nor will it is you tell him exactly the same thing, when he asks why daddy is praying and mummy isn't.
Obviously, if you want your child to actively take part in the religions instead of just educating them in them, then I can see where the confusion comes in. Also, if the parents do not have respect for each others beilefs, and are playing a tug of war game, that too starts confusion. But the choice/education alone, doesn't. I think a woman once came on here and gave religious statistics that children born to parents of different beliefs will most likely follow the mothers (Can't look for myself now, trying to rebook this nightmare holiday for my parents in a million other windows. God damn volcano)
quote: in your case you are aethist so if you give Zain your own points of view, ie you don't believe in God dont you think that will totally conflict his mind when Sam tells him about God and Islam? It's not even like you can compare Aethism to any religion because it's rejecting all religion entirely.
As explained above, children are not so easily conflicted. You shouldn't hide them from people with different points of views, but embrace it. When he asks, I will tell him the exact same thing as when he asks why that man is wearing something wrapped round his head, or has a red spot on his forehead, or is wearing a little hat with hair tassles coming down. People have different beliefs. The child will find that out very early even if both parents are following the same religion. Example: In infants my best friend (Rashida) was a muslim. At that age I couldn't care less, I just knew once a year she stopped eating for a while, and had pretty markings on her hands. I knew that is what she done, but not me. Just like I knew at school I had to pray, but didn't at home.
quote: Were you raised according to any religion as a child or were you given your own choice WK?
Religion wasn't part of my household, never talked about. My primary school was Christian (and yet my muslim friend went there, and is still a muslim, and hasn't rejected faith), and I then went to a comp school. I didn't care about religion until some people at my door gave me a bible. At first I put it in a shoe box with a spider, in hope that a few years later, I'll open it and the spider webs would make it that mystic (didn't work, when I did one day open box, there was no webs, nor spider). At the time I was very into mythology, the different gods, etc. SO I read it, I then spoke to JWs, Mormons, catholics, read, researched and thought long and hard. I then started calling myself an atheist- and I would really hate Zain being an atheist just because I am, and not because he looked at the different options out there and decided he didn't believe it. Just like I would hate him being a muslim because his dad is, but if he says he has looked into religions, and islam is right in his heart, well, I would happily go buy him a mat and some beads!
I have a feeling I just wrote a very long, badly spelt essay. Oh well, you now all know my religious life story, enjoy
-------------------- Another one.... Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
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This is a very touchy subject and I agree that you shouldn't post the personal conversations between the both of you in the forum.
Multicultural marriages are already difficult in themselves without bringing in the religion part. The mistake both of you made entering the relationship and "falling in love" is these matter for sure should have been addressed prior.
I do not agree with his comments in the least; he is being childish, manipulative, and behaving uneducated or narrow minded. However with that said, you have to realize that the point of his behavior is based on the fact of how he was raised and his families views towards their religion and means of practicing were handled. In Egypt religion and family are two crucial parts of daily life. Family have a wanted or unwanted influence on their children lives. Not to defend him in any way! but he is not only facing having to adjust to the religion of his child which for him was taught to him all of his life children of Muslims are Muslim, but I am sure he also faces issues and pressure from his family.
I agree with all, if any man stated to me to abort a child or that he doesn't want to be a part of that child's life, so be it and be on your way!!!! I am sure that you would not put your child through hardship and being disowned by its father because "your heartbroken" or "your in love".
Both have to be willing to compromise in the marriage, parenting and future goals of life together. I agree with CF that I do not believe its a good idea to wait til they are old enough ect. All religions do the same thing, when a child is born, each religion has its traditions and they are followed without question. When you mix multiple religions I agree that they should both be provided regardless of which is dominant and as you wish the child when they become an adult and are mature enough to make that decision, can.
I think rather than accepted or only listening to his view of the religion perhaps you should read about Islam and educated yourself on the religion and what is accepted and the different views and levels of the religion itself, if not just to understand it for the sole purpose that you have married into it.
I wish you all the best and hope that he begins to rationalize and mature!
Posts: 108 | From: Egypt | Registered: Apr 2010
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pmsl.... yeah right I was born a Muslim!!! I was born a blank canvas. I was free to choose my path in life... thankfully.
Compromise, there is the all important word. If two people are too stubborn to meet each other half way on something as important as this then your entire relationship is doomed no matter what choice you make.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Any guy tells me to abort a baby, he is the one I would abort. Calls himself a muslim?
Exactly ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I'm actually a convert to islam and met my husband well after my conversion so religion is not really an issue....But i still had to bring up the conversation with my then BF re: future children if we didn't agree i would not be married let alone pregnant right now (as i am too)!! Why on earth didn't u think about yr future b4 jumping the plank in such a big way ???
Firstly if any man regardless of religion said those words to me He would reject the child WTF ?? Or better to have an abortion ?? As Ayisha states it would 100% be him aborted ! Personally i don't see why yr more worried about a daughter being muslim than a son ? Either way Islam is basically a peaceful, easy religion and actually protects females more than most understand but of course with religion there is a fine line between it and cultural beliefs... This is the most important thing to clear up. Majority of muslim guys i know from London and Egypt are lovely and so protective of their children not to be tainted by the cultural bits like niqab or FGM (for example). But u do get a few farmers who still think it is part of religion..... All depends on who u hook up with x
anyways back to what u should do.....If i was u i would seriously consider an abortion of both! for the pure fact why should u or the baby be tied to such a guy ? unless u can run and deal with being a single mum.....and keeping yourself and baby away
Posts: 634 | From: the Moon........... | Registered: Mar 2007
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LMK2010, I wish you well with your pregnancy and your future decisions and urge you not to be too hard on yourself. None of us a perfect and we are all learning as we go.
I would encourage you to inquire about all kinds of support that would be available to you in the event of single parenthood (if you don't want to consider abortion) to try and ease as much worry as you can for yourself and then decide what YOU think is best for your child and yourself. Listen to your intuition.
As for your husband, remember for years he has been raised in a society dominated by his religion (in which men are at a higher standing than women). So the 'my way or the highway' is seen as his right as a husband 'to have the final say'. Regardless of whether he practices his religion or not, he believes that 'the seed of his loins' are Muslim. End of Story. Unless HE CHOOSES otherwise.
And also, regardless of whether he is lives in Egypt or the UK, I doubt that he will change his mind on this issue or anything else that is required of him by his religion (or more to the point - His God).
Good Luck my dear and take care.
Posts: 53 | From: What goes around, comes around | Registered: Mar 2009
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My baby is a Muslim!? Well he isn't a good one, hasn't prayed once, when he had his grandads beads he broke them, and if he touched a quran, he would just slobber over it. But I'm pretty impressed, he has only just learnt "bababababa", and yet knows, understands and belives in the five pillars of Islam. Amazing.
LMK, if you wish to go it alone, here is some helpful information: Tax credits are your best friend! If you work 16 hours or more a week, you can get working tax credits, however either way you get child TC. Every pergnant lady gets HIP grant, a one off payment of 190 pounds. Also, you are very likely to be entitled to the surestart grant, this is a one off 500 pounds (I can't find the pound thing on this computer). Don't fret if you are not entitled too the 500 whilst pregnant, you can claim it up to three months after the baby, and are much more likely to get it then. You will also get child benefit, which is 20 pounds a week. Surestart is great, they run free babygroups all over England, that have lots of different things going on. They are great just to get out of the house, and meet other mums (mat leave can be a lonely time otherwise). IF you breastfeed, a local "bossom buddy" or similar are good too. Often free tea and coffee, other mums, and a chance to chat about problems. If you need housing help, your midwife and doctor could help, esp if you make a big thing about being stressed in your situation (if living at home). Best to do this whilst still pregnant, as you could go into shared accom first, which you don't really want to do when baby is born (depends where you live though). Online baby forums are a great help when you are having a tough time, and freaking out about the future. I suggest babycentre.co.uk. You join your birth board (those due same month), and go through it all together. They also have a single parent group. If low on money, ebay is great. Remember babies grow very quickly, so don't waste 100 pounds on newborn clothes from mothercare. You can get large bundle of clothes from ebay for 20 pounds (often from places like mothercare or next, and worn once). And remember, there are actually some benefits to going it alone- you get full choice of the name for one!
-------------------- Another one.... Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
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To the OP, firstly i would say get rid. This guy should never make such a demand. If it were something he felt strongly about he should of spoken to you about why he felt his child should be muslim. It is all about discussion. My worry would be, if he reacts like this now, how on earth would he be if something he didn't agree with later on would happen.
Now even though i agree with Kitty and of course children adapt, unfortunately most men don't. Of all the Egyptain men i know (family or friends) they would feel 100% that their children are muslim regardless of the mothers faith because that is the way i they are brought up. Don't get me wrong Kitty but as your son is little, faith doesn't actually come into things. It will only be when your child(ren) get older that problems CAN arise. My husband and i agree on most things when it comes to our children but i do have to put my foot down on some things that he would feel are wrong. For example my children love sleep overs - husband hates it! To him he feels that the children should be here and only here. I see it as fun ie not sleeping, eating rubbish and watching DVDs with mates, i see no harm in it. He worries that there maybe brothers/sisters there - wtf i say! I am slowly getting him to give the kids more freedom and trust in them to make the right choices in life. They are great kids and they are rounded and celebrate both islamic and christain feasts.
It is hard though and i agree DG, it sure would make life alot easier if we believed the same but hey we don't We did speak about it before we had children and both decided that we would bring them up as decent human beings first and foremost then explain religion later on. This is what we have done but my husband is very different now to what he was when we met early in our twenties. His faith is far more important to him now than it was then, so no matter if you dicuss things early on doesn't always end up the way you think.
Does Sam tell his parents that his son is 'open' to religion Kitty? I found it hard when my MIL came and husband felt he should be more islamic and our children should be more islamic - things were hard back then and thankfully my husband realised that what he was doing was wrong.
Don't get me wrong my life with my husband is great - most of time. As Cheeky said it is all about compromise and that's what we try to do. Our kids have all my best bits and all hubbys best bits Posts: 895 | Registered: Sep 2007
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I wish you the best in whatever you decide. When I was recently in Egypt, my BIL said he wants to get married but he dosen't wants kids and that if he married Egyptian woman they want babies. I told him to discuss how he feels with the woman and he said if he does no Egyptian woman would marry him. I then asked him what if he did marry and wife became pregnant what would he do? He said divorce her. It seems he didn't want kids and is using religion to bail.
Posts: 319 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006
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- Isn't abortion forbidden in both Christianity and Islam?
- And to LMK2010...do you think there may be chances that he may charm his way into your life for a long time so perfectly, and then take the child back to Egypt(or another country, Islamic or otherwise) without your knowledge after many months or years of the two of you being together?
Concerning the 2nd question above, I'd just like to say that I've also come across cases of Christians and those of other religions who have also kidnapped their children away from their husbands/wives
-------------------- ...'knock on the sky and listen to the sound'...Zen saying Posts: 62 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2010
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but as your son is little, faith doesn't actually come into things. It will only be when your child(ren) get older that problems CAN arise. My husband and i agree on most things when it comes to our children but i do have to put my foot down on some things that he would feel are wrong. For example my children love sleep overs - husband hates it! To him he feels that the children should be here and only here. I see it as fun ie not sleeping, eating rubbish and watching DVDs with mates, i see no harm in it. He worries that there maybe brothers/sisters there - wtf i say! 
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