posted
I don't know if any of you remember me and my story but in brief: I married an Egyptian Orfi style and split up with him in April this year. I then found out that he can make an Orfi contract legally binding without my permission or presence. I left Egypt when I found that out, but I miss my home so desperately and would give ANYTHING to get this sorted out (ie get rid of the damn contracts) so I can go home. Does anyone know of a lawyer in Egypt who deals with this sort of thing and speaks good English? I'm absolutely desperate for help. Right now I'm not in Egypt and I need someone who can help me via email or something as I can't go back there just now. If anyone can help I will be so grateful!!
Posts: 14 | From: Hurghada, Egypt | Registered: Aug 2009
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posted
Is it possible to get help from a lawyer when you are not in the country?
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
I have no idea, I was hoping that someone could advise me at least on how to proceed. Like what they could possibly do to help my situation. I don't even know if there is anything that can be done.
Posts: 14 | From: Hurghada, Egypt | Registered: Aug 2009
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I think most ES readers who have had experience of Egyptian lawyers would say pick a Cairo lawyer not one from the Red Sea / Luxor area.
Posts: 5593 | From: Egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
You would do well to wait until you return to Egypt as a lawyer can't do anything for you without a power of attourney in place. It is possible to organise one from abroad but its complicated and expensive and you would need to have an Egyptian embassy available in your home country.
I can recommend a good Cairo lawyer for when you return if you contact me then.
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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Have you a copy of this contract? if so have it sent to a lawyer to check it/i have known of instances where the orfi whether green , white stamped etc has been a forged document, or has one stamp missing and made it void. A good lawyer will be able to tell you if this document is infact legal. A lot of the guys out there have documents that arnt worth the paper they are wrote on. If this is the case you have nothing to worry about. At least its a first step.
-------------------- tilly "I can make you feel good" -shalamar Women dont have hot flushes they just have power surges" Posts: 131 | From: uk | Registered: Apr 2009
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Penny: the thing is, I am afraid to return unless I know there is a way out of my situation. Otherwise I would just have to leave again.
Shalamar: Unfortunately I don't have a copy any more, I wasn't smart enough to keep it I know it's not a legal contract now but I also believe that it can be made legal by registering it in a court if he chose to do that.
Posts: 14 | From: Hurghada, Egypt | Registered: Aug 2009
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posted
Dont let this influence you returning to Egypt, whilst in Cairo contact a lawyr who can deal with this. You are not alone with this worry,but he wont be in the least worried. This is the only control he has over you. If your signature or the latest information re passport number is not on the orfi thats in your favour. keep your wherabouts secret from him, sort this out in Cairo and live your life.
-------------------- tilly "I can make you feel good" -shalamar Women dont have hot flushes they just have power surges" Posts: 131 | From: uk | Registered: Apr 2009
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posted
Thanks Shalamar. My signature is on the Orfi but when I returned to my country I got a new passport so now it has a different number on it... will this help? I hope so!
Posts: 14 | From: Hurghada, Egypt | Registered: Aug 2009
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posted
From what I have read I understood that the document itself is legal in Egypt only however if it hasn't been registered in court as long as all signed original copies are destroyed that is divorce....
I think that is to ensure there is no chance of it being registered in the future and to ensure that the husband can't wave his copy around of the original documents and insist you are his wife!
From what I can gather your first option is to get the original copies destroyed. Otherwise you need to ask your 'husband' to register a legal document with the courts divorcing you. This is to give you protection in case he did register it without your knowledge and so he can't decide that he is still 'married' to you in the future.
Otherwise you need to consult a lawyer, if you had a copy of your orfi you could get a divorce this way, otherwise you need to prove the relationship and get a divorce that way, somehow...
Or don't get married again in Egypt, to be safe though if the orfi still exsists you would be at risk if you travelled to Egypt and your orfi husband knew you had married again. As he could report you for bigamy. It is my understanding that it would be only in Egypt this could happen though as the orfi is not valid outside Egypt.
Please let us know how you get on.
Unfortunately everything in this is in the mans favor, it is very easy for the man to do anything, not so a woman.
Please understand this is just my understanding of the situation, I am not a lawyer. No one has the definative information on this as there appears to be none.
Posts: 25 | Registered: Oct 2008
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posted
Agree you can still go to Egypt, just don't let your 'husband' know you are there....
Your only issue while the orfi documents still exsist is that you can't marry again in Egypt and your husband can't know if you are married abroad. This is how I see it anyway....
As an aside, I think the unregistered orfi is still legal just unregistered. This is just from what I have read. Otherwise why would landlords, some hotels and the police accept it?
There is no doubt that they can be forged, not conducted properly, etc etc. However if an original signed copy still exsists how could this be proved?
Just me wondering..........
Posts: 25 | Registered: Oct 2008
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quote:Originally posted by topcat: Otherwise you need to consult a lawyer, if you had a copy of your orfi you could get a divorce this way, otherwise you need to prove the relationship and get a divorce that way, somehow...
Well I still have the business card of the lawyer who signed our contract. He presumably still has a copy because he kept one at the time. So that would be proof that we were married. Could I get a lawyer in Cairo to contact this guy in Hurghada and have him destroy the contract? But then my problem is that my husband might still have his copy and there's no way he would ever give it to me if he still had it.
Posts: 14 | From: Hurghada, Egypt | Registered: Aug 2009
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posted
If I were you I would get a copy of your orfi from the lawyer in Hurghada. He may know your husband and want to help him. So I would tell him you have misplaced your copy and need a copy for something or other (Don't tell him what for in case he is on your husbands side, tells your hubby, you get the picture). Devious I know but from what I have read goes on in Egypt.....
Then get your copy to a reputable lawyer far away from your hubby and the original lawyer. So one Penny can give you contact for in Cairo would be ideal.
Then see what he says, from what I gather he should be able to register a divorce. If he deems that necessary...
Best of luck....
Let us know how you get on, please......
Posts: 25 | Registered: Oct 2008
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posted
A lot ofguys in tourist areas tell foreign girls that orfi is just an informal 'sex licence', tear it up and sayonara habibi.In reality this is largely true in practice. So,would it not be simpler to get hold of a lawyer, tell him/her that you destroyed your orfi paper in the belief that that ended the contract, and get him to check that 'mr sneaky' hasn't registered it? If he has,move on from there, if no record, whoopdedoo. Maybe someone here could act on your behalf. generally the law here doesn't like orfi, esp between foreigners/egyptians as the deal is unclear, and open to abuse. Bad for tourism. Stop worrying.
Posts: 1399 | From: alexandria | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
If husband still has a copy though could he not register it or wave it around at a later date still?
Posts: 25 | Registered: Oct 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: generally the law here doesn't like orfi, esp between foreigners/egyptians as the deal is unclear, and open to abuse. Bad for tourism. Stop worrying.
Can you elaborate on this Mo Ning Min E?
Just interested, trying to piece all the bits together....
Posts: 25 | Registered: Oct 2008
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posted
I'm sure there are many Western ladies now safely back home from their hols, who really believe they are 'married' to some sexy smooth talking tour guide/waiter.. whatever. Maybe sending regular sums of money to 'but a flat, start a business, save his dying mother' ... And in truth, the guy has meanwhile 'orfi'd' another cash cow. Sorry to be so cynical, but I actually met a guy from hurghada, who was visiting Alex with some friends of mine, and during the space of one hour, he telephoned two German 'wives' [bastard put it on speaker!!] and got each of them to send him [western union] 5000 euros each!! I am not saying the OP is a sucker like this, probably not,[and actually I think those poor German ladies were merely innocent] But ... any problems with an orfi contract and the law will be heavily on your side. He can 'wave it around' all he likes but will be undoubtedly kicked of Hurghada at least!
Posts: 1399 | From: alexandria | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
So these contracts in reality are not taken too seriously, even in Egypt when between an Egyptian and a foreigner.
Posts: 25 | Registered: Oct 2008
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"In reality". In my opinion [which is maybe not worth jack!] Hotels in tourist areas accept them as real, as it's in their own interests financially, but I believe better class joints would refuse them. I was told .... that like most contracts that can be registered, both parties have to be physically there, to sign a big old book, with a translator at your elbow. And i don't think it gives any real rights to property etc. Actually, I bet their are many many happy orfi couples, but they will have maybe made a seperate legal provision in case it all goes wrong, [wills, kids, house, who-gets-what stuff] as the orfi would probably not be enough.
An aquaintance died this year, and his second [orfi]wife simply ceased to exist as far as inheritance. Think he at least put the flat in her name. And they were both Egyptian. From what i've observed, the main reason the government is looking into orfi is because there may be children who need to be legitimised in case of death or 'divorce'. And really only in the case of Egy-Egy orfi's I expect.
Posts: 1399 | From: alexandria | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
OK going to stop posting as this one has potential to go round and round in circles. With me going around in the most circles. From what I have read this is often the case with this topic.
If I were the OP I would still contact a lawyer as I would not want any chance of this coming back to bite me on the bum at a later date. Excuse the expression! I am a very cautious person.
From what you have said Mo Ning Min E it doesn't sound necessary however it would probably put the OP's mind at rest and a definate end to the orfi!
Otherwise the OP will probably be posting again in 3 months with the same concerns.
Just trying to help and just my opinions....
Posts: 25 | Registered: Oct 2008
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I agree a very "Grey"area - and one that probably will change with every possible applicant. Send the copy to the lawyer - it could be scanned in by emails and sorted out - -Just for your peace of mind . It will be interesting to know the outcome .
-------------------- tilly "I can make you feel good" -shalamar Women dont have hot flushes they just have power surges" Posts: 131 | From: uk | Registered: Apr 2009
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quote:Originally posted by pjanoo: Shanta: thanks, that's a great link.
Penny: the thing is, I am afraid to return unless I know there is a way out of my situation. Otherwise I would just have to leave again.
Shalamar: Unfortunately I don't have a copy any more, I wasn't smart enough to keep it I know it's not a legal contract now but I also believe that it can be made legal by registering it in a court if he chose to do that.
PJ you will have to accept that as you don't have the contract there is absolutely nothing you can do from outside Egypt.
If you should decide to return, then appoint your own lawyer in Cairo to contact your husband's lawyer for a copy of the contract. Your lawyer can then file a divorce paper in the courts, which will be a very simple process as its only an ORFI contract.
There must be a reason why you are so scared, so take the proper steps to protect yourself.
PM me if you want a lawyer recommended.
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by pjanoo: I don't know if any of you remember me and my story but in brief: I married an Egyptian Orfi style and split up with him in April this year. I then found out that he can make an Orfi contract legally binding without my permission or presence. I left Egypt when I found that out, but I miss my home so desperately and would give ANYTHING to get this sorted out (ie get rid of the damn contracts) so I can go home. Does anyone know of a lawyer in Egypt who deals with this sort of thing and speaks good English? I'm absolutely desperate for help. Right now I'm not in Egypt and I need someone who can help me via email or something as I can't go back there just now. If anyone can help I will be so grateful!! [/QUOTE
Posts: 525 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2005
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I know it's not a legal contract now but I also believe that it can be made legal by registering it in a court if he chose to do that.
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