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Originally posted by Osiris II:
Obviously, judging from the many, many racial threads that have been opened since you issued this warning, everyone chooses to ignore your polite request for no more racial threads. This board has become a soap-box for all the radical elements to post their opinions. Too bad--I though I had really found an interesting site!

[This message has been edited by Osiris II (edited 07 July 2004).]

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Originally posted by ausar:
Any more race threads than there already is then most will be deleated. If you are a poster posting under different names then your posts will be deleated also. No more race threads!! We have more than our fair share already,and please also comment on the non-race related topics about AE soceity. Enough is Enough!!!

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Originally posted by Ayazid:
The problem is american racist obsession!! 0,0000,% Egyptians are interested in that """ issue.

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The best way for you to discourage further ethnic posts is to cease them yourself. Pan Arabic posts (re: the Sudan) are also ethnic and racial, and you have contributed numerous posts of precisely that kind. You do not seem to be so much bothered by ethnic posts as you do by those that disagree with your viewpoint.

You are wasting your time attempting to bully others on this forum, even via sucking up to the moderator. This is not Iraq under Saddam! It doesn't work that way. lol.

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Originally posted by sunstorm2004:
Okay, on closer inspection, I see it's a young boy... (who *should* probably be whacked for dancing like that).

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Originally posted by ausar:
Any more race threads than there already is then most will be deleated. If you are a poster posting under different names then your posts will be deleated also. No more race threads!! We have more than our fair share already,and please also comment on the non-race related topics about AE soceity. Enough is Enough!!!

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Originally posted by ausar:
Any more race threads than there already is then most will be deleated. If you are a poster posting under different names then your posts will be deleated also. No more race threads!! We have more than our fair share already,and please also comment on the non-race related topics about AE soceity. Enough is Enough!!!

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Originally posted by Ayazid:
The problem is american racist obsession!! 0,0000,% Egyptians are interested in that """ issue.

Khalas!

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Originally posted by Orionix:
Overall, the United States is the best nation on earth. There is no nation which is superior to the United States in terms of highly developed industry and gross national product.

However this isn't contradictory to the fact that Americans are arrogant. When people have too much money (what blacks do not have in Africa) and cultural influence they become arrogant. That's just the nature of things.

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You suddenly believe that people called black folks in Africa exist. Wow!

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Originally posted by supercar:
You suddenly believe that people called black folks in Africa exist. Wow!

Opinion about America or any other nation, for that matter, is well and good, but since when did America become the focus of [b]Egyptologyand its related history?[/B]

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In terms of color Africans are the true blacks (except the ones in the north).

The blacks of the Americas are dominantly brown people, except maybe Haiti, the Bahamas and Jamaica where blacks make up the majority.

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Originally posted by Orionix:
In terms of color Africans are the true blacks (except the ones in the north).

The blacks of the Americas are dominantly brown people, except maybe Haiti, the Bahamas and Jamaica where blacks make up the majority.

And yes i think America should not be the focus of Egyptians and Africans in general. Culturally they have nothing in common.

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Needless to say that going by your twisted racial categories, the majority of Africans would be brown. Having said that, now that you acknowledge that black folks indeed exist as a race, blacks makeup the majority of populations in Upper Egypt, the origins of Ancient Egyptian civilization.

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Originally posted by Osiris II:
It really says something--I'm not exactly sure what--to have all the oft-repeated racial comments made on a thread that warns posters not to post racial comments.
Go figure!

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In terms of color Africans are the true blacks

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When people have too much money and cultural influence they become arrogant

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posted by rasol:

And who pray tell, in this personalized racist/"non racial" ideology would be the true whites, other than albinos and lepers?

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I terms of color (and also culture), Europeans are whites and Africans are black (except the ones in the north).

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posted by rasol:

Or sometimes people are just arrogant out of sheer ignorance.

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Ignorance doesn't necessarily make one arrogant, money does that's for sure.

Ignorance is merely the result of lacking education. Most people in Egypt and the rest of Africa do not have any education.

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In terms of color (and also culture), Europeans are whites

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By definition: In order to have white skin, you must have no skin pigment or melanin,. That would also make you an Albino. Anything that is not Albino has skin coloration, and therefore is not literally white.

Even Northern Europeans tend to have pink skin, and males tend to be darker than females. This is because males have more melanin in their skin than females.

In European culture the stereotype of ideal male is said to be "tall dark and handsome". How is that possible if Europeans are all 'literally' white? Of course it is possible because all Europeans are not literally the same color.

Southern Europeans are generally noticably darker than Northern Europeans, often with quite dark brown skin, brown eyes and curly brown hair.

Therefore by your logic Southern Europeans cannot be considered "true whites", and they are certainly less white than Northern Europeans.

By your literal definition of skin color a true white race does not exist.

Thus we see your literal definitions of skin color apply only to blacks and not to whites. And so is revealed as hypocritical, and racist.

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Originally posted by supercar:
So predictable! Orionix, the moment I sensed you weaseling your way into painting yourself as being mind-free of the concept of race, I knew you were trying to find negotiation, about the fact of the matter of upper Egyptians being predominantly black Africans. You are out of luck, because [b]fact is not up for negotiation! [/B]

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Upper Egyptians are black yes but take into consideration that the ones living in Cairo (Lower Egypt) are dominantly non-black.

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Originally posted by rasol:
In terms of color most Europeans certainly do [b]not have white skin.

By definition: In order to have white skin, you must have no skin pigment or melanin,. That would also make you an Albino. Anything that is not Albino has skin coloration, and therefore is not literally white.

Even Northern Europeans tend to have pink skin, and males tend to be darker than females. This is because males have more melanin in their skin than females.

In European culture the stereotype of ideal male is said to be "tall dark and handsome". How is that possible if Europeans are all 'literally' white? Of course it is possible because all Europeans are not literally the same color.

Southern Europeans are generally noticably darker than Northern Europeans, often with quite dark brown skin, brown eyes and curly brown hair.

Therefore by your logic Southern Europeans cannot be considered "true whites", and they are certainly less white than Northern Europeans.

By your literal definition of skin color a true white race does not exist.

Thus we see your literal definitions of skin color apply only to blacks and not to whites. And so is revealed as hypocritical, and racist.[/B]

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First of all there is no "true" white or black. There is no purity of anything. However most Africans have darker skin than the average Afro-American.

Racial taxonomic classifications were firstly based on skin color, that's why i use skin color insteed of race. Race is obviously in the eye of the beholder.

Khalas.

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Originally posted by Ayazid:
Please,finish this thread and all another racial threads in ANCIENT EGYPT AND EGYPTOLOGY. It´s getting VERY tiresome. It´s only a porof how possesed are you Americans by racial issues. Egyptians(both ancient and modern)would never care so much about it.

Khalas.

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First of all there is no "true" white or black.

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Which is why your previous remark about Africans being the "true" blacks were so silly.

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Originally posted by rasol:
Which is why your previous remark about Africans being the "true" blacks were so silly.

Funny how you can be made to retreat from your phony racial terminologies rather than apply them to whites.

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Since the variation between human populations is geographical the same concept can be implied to Europeans. Southern Europeans have a significant amount of African DNA.

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Since the variation between human populations is geographical the same concept can be implied to Europeans. Southern Europeans have a significant amount of African DNA.

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Originally posted by Orionix:
First of all there is no "true" white or black.

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Orionix,
You just contradicted yourself. I see it's hard for you to keep all of you lies straight. However, you do humor me.

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Originally posted by blackman:
Orionix,
You just contradicted yourself. I see it's hard for you to keep all of you lies straight. However, you do humor me.

You should teach your "The Ancient Egyptians weren't black or white. They were no race," to the people at Stormfront who belive they were white.
By teaching them you can move them closer to the truth that they were black Africans. Just think of the people you can save at stormfront from convulsions, seizures, and other ailments.

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The AEs were not black as the Bantus.

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They were the same people who they are today and the genetic studies support it.

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Meanwhile there have been numorous credible and peer reviewed genetic studies stating the obvious, and contradicting the ridiculous notion that Arabs, Persians, Hyksos, Greeks, and Syrans have had no impact on Egypt's population.

Such as: Gilles, Stevanovitch, Bouzaid, Gayraud, et al: NSERM U387 - Laboratoire d'Immunologie, Hopital Sainte Marguerite

study of the mtDNA diversity of 58 individuals from Upper Egypt, more than half (34 individuals) from Gurna, whose population has an ancient cultural history....the results suggest that the Gurna population has conserved the trace of an ancestral genetic structure from an ancestral East African population, characterized by a high M1 haplogroup frequency. The current structure of the Egyptian population may be the result of further influence of neighbouring populations on this ancestral population.....

Also see this thread on population change in AE: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/000966.html

If you can refute the information presented please reply in that thread. Thank you.

1. Scientists at the University of Cairo tested DNA from the remains of pyramid workers from 2600 BC, and found that the DNA of ancient Egyptians matches that of modern Egyptians. That is, the people living in Egypt now are essentially the same as the people living there thousands of years ago. (Read an excerpt from PBS's Secrets of the Pharaohs)

2. Borgognini-Tarli and G. Paoli, 1982.

The ABO blood type frequencies of ancient Egyptians showed no signs of differing significantly from that of present-day Egyptians. According to the authors, "the blood-group distribution obtained for Asiut, Gebelen and Aswan necropoles shows resemblances with the present leucoderm population of Egypt and particularly with its more 'conservative' fraction (the Copts, MOURANT et al., 1976)."

Anyway, North Africans as a whole are predominantly Near Eastern (U6 haplotype) with significant SS African admixture (L3 haplotype).

The U6 mtDNA (maternal) subclade is both indigenous and predominant in North Africa.

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Scientists at the University of Cairo tested DNA from the remains of pyramid workers from 2600 BC, and found that the DNA of ancient Egyptians matches that of modern Egyptians. That is, the people living in Egypt now are essentially the same as the people living there thousands of years ago

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Orionix: What you are quoting, is material from a geocities website, constantly quoted by storm fronts types in the same erroneous way...

*the quote is NOT from scientists who conducted the study. you are quoting the author of the geocities website.

* the study itself was never submitted for peer review and is not regarded seriously in scientific circles, and at any rate...does not support the conclusion you are trying to foist upon it.

1. The technology for ancient DNA isn't good and data is not conclusive. All people DNA is over 99% similiar.

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Originally posted by rasol:
[B] Orionix: What you are quoting, is material from a geocities website, constantly quoted by storm fronts types in the same erroneous way...

*the quote is NOT from scientists who conducted the study. you are quoting the author of the geocities website.

* the study itself was never submitted for peer review and is not regarded seriously in scientific circles, and at any rate...does not support the conclusion you are trying to foist upon it.

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How do you know all that? I think you are just presuming.

Anyway i will agree with you here. I think we both have a point here.

The people who inhabit North Africa (including Egypt) since paleolithic times were obviously non-black and non-white, saying otherwise is insane.

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How do you know all that? I think you are just presuming.

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Originally posted by rasol:
Because we've seen this before. This is old nonsense you are blindly repeating Orionix. I warned you earlier about quoting without attribution, and especially without knowing precisely who you are quoting from!

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Actually geocities has a bunch of useful material on human genetics as a whole. The site has a good introduction to human genetics. I do not think it's a racist myth site.

The site just gives a rebuttal to Afrocentric exaggerations about a "black" ancient Egypt.Nicer said, it offers a point for consideration.

I think we both have a point since earlier genetic studies show that there is a regional variation in genes freqeuncies in Egypt.

1.mtDNA Analysis of Nile River Valley Populations: A Genetic Corridor or a Barrier to Migration?

Other studies...

2. Y-chromosome Haplotypes in Egypt

American Journal of Physical Anthropology
Brief communication: Y-chromosome haplotypes in Egypt
G. Lucotte *, G. Mercier
International Institute of Anthropology, Paris, France
ABSTRACT

We analyzed Y-chromosome haplotypes in the Nile River Valley in Egypt
in 274 unrelated males, using the p49a,f TaqI polymorphism. These
individuals were born in three regions along the river: in Alexandria
(the Delta and Lower Egypt), in Upper Egypt, and in Lower Nubia.
Fifteen different p49a,f TaqI haplotypes are present in Egypt, the
three most common being haplotype V (39.4%), haplotype XI (18.9%),
and haplotype IV (13.9%). Haplotype V is a characteristic Arab haplotype, with a northern geographic distribution in Egypt in the Nile River Valley. Haplotype IV, characteristic of sub-Saharan
populations, shows a southern geographic distribution in Egypt. Am J
Phys Anthropol 121:000-000, 2003. © 2003 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

3. As for mtDNA (Krings et al., [1999]), the present study on the Y-
chromosome haplotype shows that there are northern and southern Y-
haplotypes in Egypt. The main Y-haplotype V is a northern haplotype,
with a significantly different frequency in the north compared to the south of the country: frequencies of haplotype V are 51.9% in the Delta (location A), 24.2% in Upper Egypt (location B), and 17.4% in
Lower Nubia (location C). On the other hand, haplotype IV is a typical southern haplotype, being almost absent in A (1.2%), and preponderant in B (27.3%) and C (39.1%). Haplotype XI also shows a preponderance in the south (in C, 30.4%; B, 28.8%) compared to the north (11.7% in A) of the country. In mtDNA, sequences of the first hypervariable HpaI site at position 3592 allowed Krings et al.([1999]) to designate each mtDNA as being of northern or southern affiliation, and proportions of northern and southern mtDNA differed
significantly between Egypt, Nubia, and the Southern Sudan.
It is interesting to relate this peculiar north/south differentiation, a pattern of genetic variation deriving from the two
uniparentally inherited genetic systems (mtDNA and Y chromosome), to specific historic events. Since the beginning of Egyptian history (3200-3100 B.C.), the legendary king Menes united Upper and Lower
Egypt. Migration from north to south may coincide with the Pharaonic colonization of Nubia, which occurred initially during the Middle Kingdom (12th Dynasty, 1991-1785 B.C.), and more permanently during
the New Kingdom, from the reign of Thotmosis III (1490-1437 B.C.).
The main migration from south to north may coincide with the 25th Dynasty (730-655 B.C.), when kings from Napata (in Nubia) conquered Egypt.

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Actually geocities has a bunch of useful material on human genetics as a whole.

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American Journal of Physical Anthropology
Brief communication: Y-chromosome haplotypes in Egypt
G. Lucotte *, G. Mercier
International Institute of Anthropology, Paris, France
ABSTRACT

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Indeed, the cited abstract specifically refutes your claims, which you evade by not presenting in entiriety:Possibly haplotypes VIII, VII, and XV represent, respectively, Near East,
Greek, and Roman influences.

It's really rather laughable that you think you can deceive us with this material.

Go Read Ausar's comments on this genetic study and Arab admixture to Upper EGyptians here, appropriately enough titled "Egyptians are not Arabs": http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum2/HTML/003285-2.html

Nothing you've cited supports your claim that modern Egypt is genetically the same as AE. Indeed your own cited studies specifically disprove your claims. How 'bad' is that?

What you have proven however, is that it does no good to attempt to 'use' genetic studies to prove a point, when you can't even take the time, nor do you have the intellectual honesty to attempt to fully understand what you are quoting.

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Originally posted by rasol:
Not as useful for your purposes of attempting to mislead, as you think, as proven when you were caught quoting the geocities website and falsely attributing it to a geneticist. I see you are taking another stab at it though.....[/B]

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Yes, geneticists make these studies. The site is actually brings up some good points against Afrocentric exaggerations.

And no i don't buy the theory which says that there was a population replacment in Egypt.

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And no i don't buy the theory which says that there was a population replacment in Egypt.

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The fact is the study you cite refutes the claim you made. Case closed. But go ahead and try to save face by changing the subject....don't blame you. What else can you do, really?

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Originally posted by Ausar:

The problem is we have scarce genetic information about the early dwellers of the Nile,and with this data we can completely answer your questions. Most genetic studies on ancient and modern Egyptians have shown continuity between ancient and modern populations within Egypt.

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Originally posted by rasol:
Since no one here is a proponent of a "population replacement theory", whatever that means, that is a red herring.

The fact is the study you cite refutes the claim you made. Case closed. But go ahead and try to save face by changing the subject....don't blame you. What else can you do, really?

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No you have some kind of illusion that the AE was prodominated by a different "race" of people.

Man you should get your head out of your ass. These Afrocentric fairy tells are old.

There is nothing which indicates that the modern Egyptians are siginificantly different from their ancient fathers.

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The modern Egyptians are genetically very similar to their ancient fathers. Ausar said it himself

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That's called quoting out of context. We are going to cure you of sophomoric debating tactics yet.

The full quote from Ausar:

The problem is we have scarce genetic information about the early dwellers of the Nile,and with this data we can completely answer your questions. Most genetic studies on ancient and modern Egyptians have shown continuity between ancient and modern populations within Egypt. Most mTdna and Y-Chromsome studies about Egypt are done with modern samples as opposed to more ancient samples. Most samples taken within Egypt are done with more urban Cairene samples instead of more rural Egyptians from Upper and Middle Egypt.

The website in question does not bother to cite the full genetic study which ironically said that sub-Saharan markers are most common within Upper Egyptian populations. Read the full study and you will that it contridicts the author's agenda and intentions. The author also excludes the following study conducted on Upper Egyptians from around Gourna.

The question is, do you even possess the subtlety of mind to comprehend the difference between what he is saying, and what you said?