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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

This discourse is anti-intellectual and unscientific. Let us continue to raise the standards of excellence and schoalrship on EgyptSearch.com.

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I totally agree! I would have thought this discussion closed a long time ago.

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Originally posted by Orionx:

However i know that there are many brown-skinned Africans within "SS Africa" but the majority ranges from dark brown to black. Mulattos are a minority in Africa.

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I don't know how you "know" the majority of people living in "SS Africa" have colours ranging from dark brown to black. Can you tell us how you got this info? Just to give you a glimpse of African diversity I suggest you look up a book called "A Day in the life of Africa" and have a serious look at those pictures. For anybody who lives or has lived in Africa "knows" this(Orionx's above quote) not to be true. Let's have more science and less speculation please.

My point was that the average African has a distinct culture and phenotype from the average Afro-American.

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Originally posted by Orionix:
I know there are many brown people within "SS Africa". Biologically speaking, no individual has exactly the same amount of skin pigmentation as the other of his own "race".

My point was that the [b]average African has a distinct culture and phenotype from the average Afro-American.

I think there lies the hypocrisy of Afrocentrism, which is mostly practiced by Afro-Americans who choose to ignore their white blood who runs through their veins. [/B]

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My point was that the average African has a distinct culture and phenotype from the average Afro-American.

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That's just dumb.

* you are comparing one ethnic group to a continent containing 1000's.

* each ethnicity has it's own culture and phenotype, no African ethnic group can represent an 'average' or would need to.

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Originally posted by rasol:

That's just dumb.

* you are comparing one ethnic group to a continent containing 1000's.

* each ethnicity has it's own culture and phenotype, no African ethnic group can represent an 'average' or would need to.

You have said one intelligent thing in this thread: when you promised it would be your last post on the subject. Sadly, you are not even perceptive enough to take your own advice, and continue to embarrass yourself with and endless series of insipid remarks. [/B]

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My advice for you would be is to stop yelling at me. You guys are not black and not African (except Ausar).

And yes a person who ignores his white ancestry is a hypocrite. Latin Americans don't do that.

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Originally posted by Keino:
You are lost in you hypocracy and racist mind. The truth will set you free one day! Most africans are brown and few are black or dark brown. If you took a travel through africa or even if you just look at the many west africans around you will see that many of them are brown and not jet black as you think most people in africa are. However so what! Black is black, but culture is a different story and here lies the dicotomies!

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It really depends how you define "brown", "dark brown" or "black".

On a VERY arbitrary scale it would look like this:

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Originally posted by Orionix:
My point was that the [b]average African has a distinct culture and phenotype from the average Afro-American.

I think there lies the hypocrisy of Afrocentrism, which is mostly practiced by Afro-Americans who choose to ignore their white blood who runs through their veins. [/B]

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Thought Writes:

I agee that African-Americans and Africans have distinct cultures. But what is the SCIENTIFIC basis for the claim that African-American's and African's have distinct phenotypes? This certainly does not corespond with the genetic data, which indicates strong links between African-Americans and Africans. Where can I find your supporting SCIENTIFIC data on the phenotype claim? Further more how do you tie this into Afrocentrism and hypocracy? Sounds far fetched! In addition how do you know that all/most African-American "Afrocentrics" chose to ignore their "white blood" (DNA?)? Please show me your survey data that supports this sweeping generalization?

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My advice for you would be is to stop yelling at me.

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And yes a person who ignores his white ancestry is a hypocrite. Latin Americans don't do that

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However, at least Latinos get to join in with the rest of us in laughing at your inanities:

Although racial discrimination is a crime, help-wanted ads often require ``good appearance'' - which is widely taken as code for white. ``Poverty in Brazil has a color,'' read an opinion article this week in the financial daily Gazeta Mercantil, considered Brazil's Wall Street Journal. ``From the racial viewpoint, Brazil and the USA are different - there, whites and blacks are equal but live separately; here, they are together but unequal.....the idea that it's a ``racial democracy'' has long been one of Brazil's most cherished myths....
black pride has not taken root in Brazil outside of African-culture centers like Salvador, the nation's colonial-era capital. Many Afro-Brazilians simply deny they are black - a 1998 census found more than 300 descriptions for skin color, including ``cinnamon,'' ``coffee-with-milk,'' ``blue,'' even ``encardido,'' the Portuguese word for ``filthy.'' http://aad.english.ucsb.edu/docs/muello1.html

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As Thought noted earlier, your comments merely seek to cover for your ignorance of the topic of AE.

However, at least Latinos get to join in with the rest of us in laughing at your inanities:

Although racial discrimination is a crime, help-wanted ads often require ``good appearance'' - which is widely taken as code for white. ``Poverty in Brazil has a color,'' read an opinion article this week in the financial daily Gazeta Mercantil, considered Brazil's Wall Street Journal. ``From the racial viewpoint, Brazil and the USA are different - there, whites and blacks are equal but live separately; here, they are together but unequal.....the idea that it's a ``racial democracy'' has long been one of Brazil's most cherished myths'' http://aad.english.ucsb.edu/docs/muello1.html [/B]

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You are not Latino and not African so i don't understand why are you bothering??

1. First of all i'm not among these people who relate looks or beauty with whiteness or anything. You brought it up, not me.

2. Also Americans do not know much about Latin Americans, it's merely what you read in the Internet.

3. And yes it's true, Brazil is not a racial paradise for non-whites, especially blacks but that's part of the Brazilian history.

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

I agee that African-Americans and Africans have distinct cultures. But what is the SCIENTIFIC basis for the claim that African-American's and African's have distinct phenotypes? This certainly does not corespond with the genetic data, which indicates strong links between African-Americans and Africans. Where can I find your supporting SCIENTIFIC data on the phenotype claim? Further more how do you tie this into Afrocentrism and hypocracy? Sounds far fetched! In addition how do you know that all/most African-American "Afrocentrics" chose to ignore their "white blood" (DNA?)? Please show me your survey data that supports this sweeping generalization?

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Well according to Genetics, there is a strong link between all humans so you don't have a point.

Now are you saying that the average Afro-American does not have near white ancestry? Please give me a break.

Afrocentrism is praticed by many Afro-Americans who have white ancestry but still ignore it as a racial weapon against white people. That was my point. Latinos don't do that. We except the fact that we are mixed race.

Edit: BTW history, culture and race go hand in hand. The racial classifications used today are merely the product of the last 500 years of human history.

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You are not Latino and not African so i don't understand why are you bothering??

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1. First of all i'm not among these people who relate looks or beauty with whiteness or anything.

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2. Also Americans do not know much about Latin Americans, it's merely what you read in the Internet.

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3. And yes it's true, Brazil is not a racial paradise for non-whites, especially blacks but that's part of the Brazilian history.

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next.....

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Originally posted by rasol:
I didn't say you were, I simply presented an article on racial reality in Brazil, which bears no resemblence to your propagandista

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The racial reality in Brazil is probably better than in the US. In USA blacks and whites do not even live together. You guys live in a caste system.

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Seems it struck a nerve judging by your defensive response. Question: Is anyone here surprised? Didn't think so.

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Stop whining...

No one takes ANY Afrocentrics seriosuly. Show me ONE successful Afrocentric who hasn't losed his career.

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If they read your garbage and take it seriously, they know less than nothing. But then, who takes you seriously?

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As far as i'm concerned the only garbage is what you have inside your head.

Man Stop looking for hairs in eggs. You will not find any and it will just make you appear more idiotic as you have already shown yourself to be.

Why do Americans only see the world in terms of black and white?

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Show me ONE successful Afrocentric who hasn't losed his career.

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Question: Why are you bitter and obsessed with Afrocentrics? Did one take your job, your girlfriend, or what? Do you even have a career? Or a girl? Your behavior is that of a stereotypical embittered racist troll.

Cheer up! Things can only get better for you, once you hit bottom, and bounce.

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I don't know of any who have "losed" their careers, but then I don't know of any who write as poorly as you either.

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Lol... You write very poor English for an American. I suggest you to take a vication.

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Question: Why are you bitter and obsessed with Afrocentrics? Did one take your job, your girlfriend, or what? Do you even have a career? Or a girl? Your behavior is that of a stereotypical embittered racist troll.

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Bitter...Not at all. Actually i find you comical.

Afrocentrics are very depressed race-obssessed trolls. Man get out of your computer. Maybe than you'll stop seing the world in terms of black and white.

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Cheer up! Things can only get better for you, once you hit bottom, and bounce.

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Well i'm not the one who lost a career. You seem to be one.

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Originally posted by Orionix:
Maybe than you'll stop seing the world in terms of black and white.

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Originally posted by rasol:
It's more of a dialectic of intelligence vs. ignorance, with your comments exemplifying the later. But I will leave the ad hominems to you, since you have clearly run out of even 'bad' arguments, related to AE. peace....

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Ok i will agree with you that the Egyptians were black Africans with a southern origin.

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Originally posted by ausar:

Samara is also applied to Sudanese people. The Nubians in Egypt are not called Iswadi either except for ones that look like southern Sudanese. Southern Sudanese are the darkest people on the earth and darker than most southern Egyptians and Northern Sudanese. Some Egyptians around Aswan look liike Western African.

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Maybe, there is little difference betwen Egyptian and Sudanese classification. I think many North Sudanese and even Egyptian Nubians could be considered "sud"(black) in Egypt,despite the fact that they wouldn´t call themselves "sud",but "sumr".It´s obvious because Egyptians are on average lighter than North Sudanese ... Of course, these terms are not strictly defined.

There are some examples of people,who are quite common in North Sudan, who would be (probably) considered "black" in Egypt:

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Originally posted by rasol:

Black is a prejorative in most of the modern Islamic world, and has been that way since the Moors [also means black] were ousted from Europe. By contrast Black was regarded as an apositive and specifically black skin color in Ancient Egypt was regarded as sacred. As the Kemetic tradition of Black God images such as KemOsiri and KemIsi later translated by European culture as the Black Madonna demonstrate. Don't apply/justify modern racism to AE.

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Modern Egyptians usually don´t call themselves literally "black", but the term "asmar" is very often used and it´s not any insult:

"Samar noss el gamal" = "Darkeness is beautifull".

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Ok i will agree with you that the Egyptians were black Africans with a southern origin.

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Still i do not understand why you see these people in terms of black and white.

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Originally posted by Orionix:
Ok i will agree with you that the Egyptians were black Africans with a southern origin.

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Well, it would appear to be a long road for anyone with the "denial" baggage, to come to terms with the problem. You seem to be getting there, and so, all efforts to set you straight with facts has not been lost!

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Orionix:
Still i do not understand why you see these people in terms of black and white. These racial classifications are not generous to human biodiversity.

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You have read folks here wrong: it is not the question of looking at Kemetians in terms of black and white, but it is about facts. It is about records of what Kemetians themselves left behind, about their own identity and that they were certainly not folks who adhered the "no race" concept; that would be something, that modern folks would impose on them! That upper Egyptians were the same stock as sub-Sahara Africans is a fact, which no one can change and therefore not something one can negotiate. If by your own definition, accept that black folks do exist, then you would have concede that the Upper Egyptians were and still are predominantly black folks. You can't accept that they are of the same stock as their "Nubian" neighbors, which is a scientific reality, only to then say Nubians qualify as black folks, but not Upper Egyptians. Is Egypt as a whole heterogeneous? Of course! Has the population makeup always been the same? That is a fallacy. Populations have changed over time due to migrations and globalization. There would have been relatively larger tropical African presence in the early Kemetian populations, even in the more heterogeneous lower Egyptian region. Thousands of years after the birth of Kemet as one nation, the eventual coming of the Greeks, Romans, Arab tribes, Turks, British, French, and various Gulf Asians at different points in time, have had an impact in the population makeup, especially in lower Egypt. Therefore, it is a delusion to think that while lower Egypt has been more heterogeneous than its upper counterpart since the dynastic era, that constant foreign influx hasn't had an impact on the appearance of contemporary Egyptians!

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Originally posted by Supercar:

If by your own definition, accept that black folks do exist, then you would have concede that the Upper Egyptians were and still are predominantly black folks. You can't accept that they are of the same stock as their "Nubian" neighbors, which is a scientific reality, only to then say Nubians qualify as black folks, but not Upper Egyptians. Is Egypt as a whole heterogeneous? Of course! Has the population makeup always been the same? That is a fallacy.

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Thought Writes:

Yes all humans are closely related when compared to Bears or Birds. But within human genetic variation there exist clusters and sub-families. One such sub-lineage is the PN2 transition that you alluded to earlier. This sub-lineage includes E-M35 and E-M2. These two lineages are the two most prominent male lineages in Africa and POST DATE the modern human expansion out of Africa.

{Now are you saying that the average Afro-American does not have near white ancestry?}

Thought Writes:

Most human populations have SOME admixture at this point in time. In fact most humans have SOME Ancient Egyptian ancestry as well. Modern African-Americans are not white or Ancient Egyptian, although it is probable that they would cluster with Ancient Egyptians on a global analysis.

{Please give me a break.}

Thought Writes:

I am here to “break-up” the ignorance.

{Afrocentrism is praticed by many Afro-Americans who have white ancestry but still ignore it as a racial weapon against white people.}

Thought Writes:

More subjective non-sense. You have no survey data to support such a contention.

{Latinos don't do that. We except the fact that we are mixed race.}

Thought Writes:

Thought Writes:

Yes all humans are closely related when compared to Bears or Birds. But within human genetic variation there exist clusters and sub-families. One such sub-lineage is the PN2 transition that you alluded to earlier. This sub-lineage includes E-M35 and E-M2. These two lineages are the two most prominent male lineages in Africa and POST DATE the modern human expansion out of Africa.

{Now are you saying that the average Afro-American does not have near white ancestry?}

Thought Writes:

Most human populations have SOME admixture at this point in time. In fact most humans have SOME Ancient Egyptian ancestry as well. Modern African-Americans are not white or Ancient Egyptian, although it is probable that they would cluster with Ancient Egyptians on a global analysis.

{Please give me a break.}

Thought Writes:

I am here to “break-up” the ignorance.

{Afrocentrism is praticed by many Afro-Americans who have white ancestry but still ignore it as a racial weapon against white people.}

Thought Writes:

More subjective non-sense. You have no survey data to support such a contention.

{Latinos don't do that. We except the fact that we are mixed race.}

Thought Writes:

There is no such thing as a “race”. Humans are biologically variable. African-Americans in my association acknowledge that they have multiple lineages. Your underlying premise is built on a fallacy.

It is also very obvious that you get upset only at facts which contradict your personal views, and which you cannot refute. Only then, do you launch your frankly, phony, tirade.

You've done this so many times (since before I joined this forum I know) and no one has ever been impressed so one would think you'd take the hint.

But if not, I'll spell it out to you again in the same way that others have:

you should take a constructive approach to posting on topics that you find less upsetting to your 'delicate' and duplicitous sensibilities.

* Personally, I would not mind if the moderator closed this thread, as it has 'predictably' resulted in the exact opposite of what was intended, but that's his call, not mine.

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Afrocentrism is praticed by many Afro-Americans who have white ancestry but still ignore it as a racial weapon against white people.}

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Thought Writes:

More subjective non-sense. You have no survey data to support such a contention.

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Indeed it is easy to demonstrate the exact opposite. So called 'whites' of the Americas (north central and south), can be proven to have so called 'negro' blood...and yet not only ignore it, but in fact attempt to hide it, lie about it, and practice racial bigotry against 'negroes'.

Anyone who has ever visited Dinekes anthropology Blog (southern europeans, desparately/pathetically trying to convince the world of their white racial purity), can attest to this fact.

As always, the train (of thought) of nonracialism appears to run in one direction only, and with the Blacks assigned to 3rd class carriages in the rear.

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Maybe, there is little difference betwen Egyptian and Sudanese classification. I think many North Sudanese and even Egyptian Nubians could be considered "sud"(black) in Egypt,despite the fact that they wouldn´t call themselves "sud",but "sumr".It´s obvious because Egyptians are on average lighter than North Sudanese ... Of course, these terms are not strictly defined.

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Most northern Sudanese and Egyptian Nubians look no different from Upper Egyptians. People from Luxor and Aswan certainly don't call northern Sudanese sud. Northern Sudanese except the Baggara don't look very much like Egyptian Nubians.

What you are speaking of is in Cairene districts but not in Upper Egypt. Matter of fact the word sud and Iswad in Egyptian dialects really means a deep blue.

There are even Aswani Egyptians darker than Egyptian Nubians. Many Egyptian Nubians have mixed with Arabs and Turkish people. Ottoman Turks controlled Lower Nubia since 1500's and raped Nubian women. Look up these people called kushaf.

You should also tell it all the way that Egyptians also distingusih ourselves from Asiatic Arabs like Damacus Syrians. We call Syrians ''shamy''. It's usually because of their distinctive nose that is different from our own.

Anyway, this topic is going no where,so a couple more replies and I am closing it.