There are all kinds of AE "fantasies" out there, such as, extraterrestrial origins of the pyramids and civilization (the new "Predator Vs Alien" movie hints on this); flying Egyptian vehicles; dark skin-white race origins of Egyptian civilization; Egyptian Pharaohs routinely being depicted as ruthless tyrants in hollywood movies, whom enslaved large masses of their own people (like in the "10 commandments", "the Mummy", "Futurama"); bulk of pyramid builders being depicted as slaves in children story books and movies; contemporary black Egyptians being explained off as descendants of slaves or captives of the Egyptian empire; traditions from the Ancient Egyptian era written off as "completely" vanished; the sphinx and the pyramids explained as the work of some vanished pre-dynastic advanced culture before the Egyptians or Kemetians; Egyptians having no clue of nationalism, so as to even proclaim a Marsian as Pharaoh; the real Cleopatra having looked something like the actress who depicted her, namely Elizabeth Taylor; and so on. Some of these fantasies are more out there than others. Which fantasies would you consider the most ridiculous?

LLH*

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Originally posted by rasol:
http://www.stormfront.org/whitehistory/hwr8.htm

LLH*

* laugh like h#ll.

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Definitely comedy material, if only one were to ignore the tragedy here, that these people don't see themselves as comedians. I hope help is on the way, from rational thinkers!

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Logic

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Originally posted by ausar:
No disrespect but I would appreciate if links to stormfront is not posted on this message board. I understand the need to illustrate supremist logic but please don't post links to stromfront or anything Arthur Kemp writes. Arthur Kemp is a criminal/former secret agent for British Intelligence turned Nazi. He is even wanted for killing a black south African.

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Not that it is relevant to the topic at hand, but he is wanted by whom?

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Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
Someone explain the story of Cleopactra to mean because I was under the impression that since she was of Ptomely blood then she was white. Though, she could have been mixed as well.

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I must add that, Cleopatra being mixed or anything else than white, should be included in AE fantasies. Cleopatra was a full blooded white Greek, who managed to gain some authority through the generals Alexander helped to get power!

If you are referring to anything of Eric Von Danicken - very interesting but please bear in mind that the period he served in prison may have shifted his thinking a little.

Thats by far the most ridiculous

The Jews built the pyramid myth was popularized by Josephus. The Hebrews being the slaves of the ancient Egyptians is blindly followed by blind bible beilevers.

Many theories have been attached to the pyramids. Everything from Crusaders believing that pyramids were the granary of Joseph down to energy stations for unlimited power. People sometimes want to believe in a reality that is very different from their own.

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Originally posted by ausar:

The Jews built the pyramid myth was popularized by Josephus. The Hebrews being the slaves of the ancient Egyptians is blindly followed by blind bible beilevers.

Many theories have been attached to the pyramids. Everything from Crusaders believing that pyramids were the granary of Joseph down to energy stations for unlimited power. People sometimes want to believe in a reality that is very different from their own.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:

The Jews built the pyramid myth was popularized by Josephus. The Hebrews being the slaves of the ancient Egyptians is blindly followed by blind bible beilevers.

Many theories have been attached to the pyramids. Everything from Crusaders believing that pyramids were the granary of Joseph down to energy stations for unlimited power. People sometimes want to believe in a reality that is very different from their own.

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What a lot of people don't understand is that the Bible isn't something that was just written a few centuries ago, it's the second oldest religon in the world. These ideas probably have been harped up by Hollywood, but they definently didn't create the ideas...which, by the way, have been believed and followed for thousands of years. What a lot of people don't understand is that a lot of scriptures in the Bible are misinterpreted. Why is it so hard for you to believe that there was a large population of Israelites in Egypt at one point and were oppressed by a Pharoah...knowing they were oftentimes oppressive people?

Now before you bring up chattel slavery...I never said anything about that. That's not even what's written in the Bible. Now THAT may be something that has been misunderstood by Hollywood. Back in the 40's, 50's, and 60's, when they read things about forced labor, they immediatly related that to American slavery, and that may not be the truth.

Oh, not to mention the City of Ramses which is talked about in the Bible as the main place built by the Israelites was just recently found...yet again confirming biblical scripture. It's not just something followed in Christianity, but Judiasm, and Islam.

I just found this AWESOME discussion thread exactly on this issue with a whopping 58 pages. Give me some time to read it all and collect my thoughts

http://www.mahoneymedia.com/exodus/VideoClips

Plus, I could be wrong but I'm not even sure if the Bible says the Israelites built the pyramids. I just remember the cities of Pithom and Ramses, but I could be wrong.

[This message has been edited by King_Scorpion (edited 01 November 2004).]

[This message has been edited by King_Scorpion (edited 01 November 2004).]

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Originally posted by King_Scorpion:

What a lot of people don't understand is that the Bible isn't something that was just written a few centuries ago, it's the second oldest religon in the world. These ideas probably have been harped up by Hollywood, but they definently didn't create the ideas...which, by the way, have been believed and followed for thousands of years. What a lot of people don't understand is that a lot of scriptures in the Bible are misinterpreted. Why is it so hard for you to believe that there was a large population of Israelites in Egypt at one point and were oppressed by a Pharoah...knowing they were oftentimes oppressive people?

Now before you bring up chattel slavery...I ever said anything about that. That's not even what's written in the Bible. Now THAT may be something that has been misunderstood by Hollywood. Back in the 40's, 50's, and 60's, when they read things about forced labor, they immediatly related that to American slavery, and that may not be the truth.

Oh, not to mention the City of Ramses which is talked about in the Bible as the main place built by the Israelites was just recently found...yet again confirming biblical scripture. It's not just something followed in Christianity, but Judiams, and Islam.

I just found this AWESOME discussion thread exactly on this issue with a whopping 58 pages. Give me some time to read it all and collect my thoughts

http://www.mahoneymedia.com/exodus/VideoClips

Plus, I could be wrong but I'm not even sure if the Bible says the Israelites built the pyramids. I just remember the cities of Pithom and Ramses, but I could be wrong.

[This message has been edited by King_Scorpion (edited 01 November 2004).]

[This message has been edited by King_Scorpion (edited 01 November 2004).]

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You are falling into the trap of reading the Bible as scientific evidence, as opposed to the actual evidence the Kemetians themselves left behind. I know it is mentally pleasing to some to view Kemetian Pharaohs as villains, and to give the credit for Kemetian ingenuity and creativity (the monuments and pyramids) to some "extraterrestrials" or some "large" oppressed foreign captives, but that fantasizing belongs in fiction books and not reality. To stay in touch with actual events, its adviceable to stick with facts backed by concrete evidence. I haven't seen any concrete evidence that suggests that Kemetians outsourced work on their monuments to foreign slaves or any slaves for that matter. If there is any, I am open to hearing it!

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What a lot of people don't understand is that the Bible isn't something that was just written a few centuries ago, it's the second oldest religon in the world. These ideas probably have been harped up by Hollywood, but they definently didn't create the ideas...which, by the way, have been believed and followed for thousands of years. What a lot of people don't understand is that a lot of scriptures in the Bible are misinterpreted. Why is it so hard for you to believe that there was a large population of Israelites in Egypt at one point and were oppressed by a Pharoah...knowing they were oftentimes oppressive people?

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I think the Bible is an invaluable historical document and a masterpiece of literature as well. To take it literally though is a matter of faith. Faith is not something to be 'debated' in a scholarly fashion. You either believe, or you don't.

For example: from a literal point of view, the story of Noah and his three sons Ham, Shem and Jepth representing the three branches of mankind is utterly ridiculous.

However when we accept the story as being authentic Hebrew ethno-mythology we can glean invaluable information from it.

It tells us something about how the ancient Hebrews saw the world.

The fact is though that by and large, the Hebrews emigrated into Kemet willingly. They were not captured and brought to Kemet.
Nor is there any evidence of Hebrew being singled out or targeted as slaves. All of these things describe the Atlantic slave trade. None of them describe ancient Kemet or make any sense in the context of Kemetic history or culture. Even in terms of the Bible, mass enslavement of Hebrews does not make sense, as it is not consistent with exodus. Slaves don't exodus, because they can't. Because they are slaves. The Bible stories deal with these contradications by invoking miracles. But again, that is religion and should not be confused with history.

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Originally posted by kenndo:
some of the african faiths are still the oldest in the world,and the nubian faith is still here too.

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Could you provide more details on this. A while back on the Discovery channel I saw a program on the ancient cultures of northern sudan.

What I found interesting was the info on the temple of Amon established near gebel barka. Since then I've wondered whatever happened to Amon's priesthood and worship. Arabization and Euro colonization occurred relatively late in its history. Even when the sudanese kingdoms supposedly converted to Christ they were not subject to foreign rule far as I know.

Did Amon's priesthood disappear without a trace?

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Originally posted by rasol:
I think the Bible is an invaluable historical document and a masterpiece of literature as well. To take it literally though is a matter of faith. Faith is not something to be 'debated' in a scholarly fashion. You either believe, or you don't.

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Good point. I mean, where does the buck end. Whose to say that scripts of Shinto, Buddhist, various branches of Christianity, Islamic, Zoroastrian, Jewish and so on, all with information that contradict one another at times, not to mention that they have all been written thousands of centuries ago, aren't all historical reality? Whose words have the error? Needless to say that, one can't answer that question, without implying to another, that their creator is the source of error! Every religous script maintains the ideology that its information is divine and shouldn't be questioned. Yet there is nothing wrong with having faith. We've had a thread on this, and I will say it again; in science, this "take it or leave it" attitude is not tolerated, and it shouldn't be. Here, concrete evidence ought to have tremendous value in backing up theories and analysis. As for pyramid builders, recently concrete evidence in the form of building structures have been uncovered. These may also be referred to workers quarters, containing invaluable information on activities in the area, like; where the workers slept, where they prepared food, and whether they were well fed, clothing and so on. Graffiti by these workers in their work environment also tells us much about them. Even the location at which these quarters have been covered, speaks volumes. More digging is taking place, to uncover even more information about the pyramid builders. All concrete evidence uncovered so far, contradicts stories of foreign slaves as builders and even more so, aliens from outer space. However, the evidence does corroborate healthy Egyptian men and women, guided by cultural inspiration, as the builders of these remarkable monuments!

BTW, I agree with King_Scorpion's take on the meaning of "slave" in Kemet at the time. In kemet, the so-called slave isn't what it has come to be known as, since 19th century Western slave trades. In kemet, a well looked after and rewarded servant, may have been referred to as a slave. Not much different from ancient slave tradition in various African societies. Again, not to be confused with our modern conception of slaves.

They didn't go into Egypt from anywhere.

Afterall, modern Jews still walk around with indigenous Egyptian (ie: African) names.

Yes it is true there was a exodus but more than a few Greek and Roman historians wrote of a potential leprosy outbreak.

Thats why there was a exodus because the Egyptians feared a leprosy outbreak.

Thats why a mass amount of EGYPTIANS left the land and founded Canaan.

These are just the plain facts.

Also, the Bible is collection of very old writings that have nothing to do with the Jews as we know them.

The Bible comes from the annals of Egypt.

How else could (Hellenistic) Jews get their hand on stories from ancient Sumer?

They simply indulged in the oldest libraries known to man.

Which were in EGYPT.

They left the library of Alexander with a holy book.

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Originally posted by Dada Afre:
Jews are from Egypt.
They didn't go into Egypt from anywhere.

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Originally posted by ausar:

The Jews built the pyramid myth was popularized by Josephus. The Hebrews being the slaves of the ancient Egyptians is blindly followed by blind bible beilevers.

Many theories have been attached to the pyramids. Everything from Crusaders believing that pyramids were the granary of Joseph down to energy stations for unlimited power. People sometimes want to believe in a reality that is very different from their own.

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Jews were slaves in Egypt. Why would anybody say otherwise?

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Originally posted by ausar:
No disrespect but I would appreciate if links to stormfront is not posted on this message board. I understand the need to illustrate supremist logic but please don't post links to stromfront or anything Arthur Kemp writes. Arthur Kemp is a criminal/former secret agent for British Intelligence turned Nazi. He is even wanted for killing a black south African.

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Yes Stormfront is run by criminals, probably memebers of the KKK. The guy who owns the site is Don Black (probably a concealed name).

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Jews were slaves in Egypt. Why would anybody say otherwise?

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Err... because there is no much secular evidence besides the Torah[a book of faith] to suggest a mass enslavement of Hebrews. I asked for your proof,so please supply it.

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We know rhat the Egyptians were slave owners and most of the slaves came from Asia.

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Most Egyptians were semi-literate peasent farmers. The Torah describes a mass enslavement of Hebrews which is not consistent with Egyptian pratices. The word for slave in Egypt is hm[servent] which is sometimes applied to war captives. The elite in Egypt were very few,and the mass of Egypt were not slave owners.

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Err... because there is no much secular evidence besides the Torah[a book of faith] to suggest a mass enslavement of Hebrews. I asked for your proof,so please supply it.

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We don't have a solid evidence for mass slavery of Hebrews. But we know that slavery in Egypt was being restricted to captives and foreigners (mainly Asians) or to people who were forced by poverty or debt to sell themselves into service.

In the Middle Kingdom (the Intermediate period), asiatic immigration is known in the late 12th dynasty and became widespread in the 13th. From the late 18th century BC the northeastern Delta was settled by successive waves of Palestinians.

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
[b]Most Egyptians were semi-literate peasent farmers. The Torah describes a mass enslavement of Hebrews which is not consistent with Egyptian pratices. The word for slave in Egypt is hm [servent] which is sometimes applied to war captives. The elite in Egypt were very few,and the mass of Egypt were not slave owners.

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So who was the elite class?

According to the jewsih bible, the Hebrews were enslaved in Egypt 40 years. After 40 years they managed to escape. Most Jews believe that they were slaves to the Paraoh in Egypt.

Excellent Example:

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Jews were slaves in Egypt. Why would anybody say otherwise?
We know that the Egyptians were slave owners and most of the slaves came from Asia.

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The fantasy here is due to seeing things from the Western European ideology and its practice of chattel slavery. It transposes memories of say, the old southern plantations in the United States or the ancient Roman galleys, into a distinctly African reality. It also indicates an ignorance of what the institution of human slavery actually is:

Slavery is an economic system. Kemet, unlike ancient Greece and Rome, never had an economic system based on slave labor. It was Kemetian paid workers who raised the mighty pyramids along the Nile river and most of the great works created by Kemetian civilization. Contrary to Biblical mythology, the labors of Asiatic prisoners of war was never that significant. In fact, they did not even exist during the Pyramid Age.

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Originally posted by Wally:
Excellent Topic:
[b]The most ridiculous Ancient Egypt Fantasies

Excellent Example:

The fantasy here is due to seeing things from the Western European ideology and its practice of chattel slavery. It transposes memories of say, the old southern plantations in the United States or the ancient Roman galleys, into a distinctly African reality. It also indicates an ignorance of what the institution of human slavery actually is:

Slavery is an economic system. Kemet, unlike ancient Greece and Rome, never had an economic system based on slave labor. It was Kemetian paid workers who raised the mighty pyramids along the Nile river and most of the great works created by Kemetian civilization. Contrary to Biblical mythology, the labors of Asiatic prisoners of war was never that significant. In fact, they did not even exist during the Pyramid Age.

The Ancient Egyptian word for 'slave' or 'servant' - hm also becomes 'hamu' or craftsman or artisan. It signifies in Kemetian ideology, the respectability of the Kemetian Worker/servant/slave class. This ideology and practice also existed in ancient Kush, Mali, Ghana, Songhai, Ashanti, and so on...[/B]

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Originally posted by supercar:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dada Afre:
[b]Jews are from Egypt.
They didn't go into Egypt from anywhere.

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Are you saying this on the basis of Jewish monotheist concept being born in Egypt?
How about the Asian imigrants (the era within the vicinity of the Hyksos), many of them nomadic tribes or peasants and whom according to some historians, were referred to as the "hibiru" by the Kemetians; what do you make of them? Although these nomads aren't the ancestors of all Jews, nonetheless many Jews tend to hold that view. [/B][/QUOTE]

You can look at this biblically.

Even in the bible it says Jacob and his family of 70 men went into Egypt and lived there for over 300 years.

That alone backs what I'm saying even though they weren't slaves in Egypt.

How does a family of 70 men miracuously become 12 tribes in Egypt anyway?

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Originally posted by Dada Afre:

You can look at this biblically.

Even in the bible it says Jacob and his family of 70 men went into Egypt and lived there for over 300 years.

That alone backs what I'm saying even though they weren't slaves in Egypt.

How does a family of 70 men miracuously become 12 tribes in Egypt anyway?

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I think you must have missed it, when I mentioned earlier, that I don't take religious texts as absolute or scientific evidence. Its true that most well known religions have traditions that have some value when studying history, but even then more analysis is necessary, when determining correlations to available actual evidence. There are various biblical accounts of Jews in Egypt, which are contradicted by what the Kemetians left behind, or else, there is simply no concrete evidence to support them. For instance, while its probable that mass exodus had taken place, where is the actual evidence that supports it? If we were to look everything from the perspective of various faiths (which faith will you single out?) , which don’t always agree with one another, why even bother to look for or analyze available concrete evidence, which could potentially tell different stories? Of course I am not suggesting that, I am not open to any religious script, which appears to be consistent with what we know so far about stuff the Kemetians left behind!

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We don't have a solid evidence for mass slavery of Hebrews. But we know that slavery in Egypt was being restricted to captives and foreigners (mainly Asians) or to people who were forced by poverty or debt to sell themselves into service.

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No, debt slavery was for regular Egyptians. Captives were given mostly to temple estates,but their numbers were rather miniscule. Only during the Intermediate Periods were there pressence high enough to account for mass amounts.

Egypt had mandatory corvee labor which it used the general Egyptian population to build temples, tombs,and pyramids. Asiatic people were not allowed within the sacred abode of the neteru.

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In the Middle Kingdom (the Intermediate period), asiatic immigration is known in the late 12th dynasty and became widespread in the 13th. From the late 18th century BC the northeastern Delta was settled by successive waves of Palestinians.

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Some of this migration was skilled Asiatic craftsmen. Bedouin Arabs were shown in the tomb of Beni Hassan coming to Egypt peacefully. Alot of these settlements probabaly were forced by the expansion of Egyptian territory into Levantine and Western Asian territories. Are you equating these asiatics with the predecessor of the Hebrew nation?

Let me say also during the 6th dyansty the general Weni attacks the ''land of the sandwellers possibly bringing back Asiatic captives. He talks about in his autobiography ''hacking up the land of the sand dwellers with the nose of the gazelle'' and this probabaly refers to the modern day Negev desert bedouins.

Please understand I am open minded because Egyptian history is not definitie. To establish something we must use material from Egypt including the king's lists,Plaermo stone,and literature from this time period.

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So who was the elite class?

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Mostly the pharaoh, vizer[tjay],and other officals that represented the organized state. Many of these positions were filled with either appointed people or family of the pharaoh. The priesthood also owned large amounts of estates and had power within the country. So much power it was in later time they clashed with the pharaoh.

Also often soliders in the Egyptian army owned large amounts of land as well.

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According to the jewsih bible, the Hebrews were enslaved in Egypt 40 years. After 40 years they managed to escape. Most Jews believe that they were slaves to the Paraoh in Egypt.

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Are you saying this on the basis of Jewish monotheist concept being born in Egypt?]

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From my reserch early Egyptians had a monotheistic based religious pratice,but I also know worship was probabaly different in the nomes than within the state religious pratices. The religious pratices of the commoners was probabaly also different than the priesthood. I have never really believed that ancient Kemetians were polytheists.

I also look at the neteru as dead ancestors later venerated.

One thing you have to remeber when the current bible was translated that Semetic languages were translated into Indo-Europeans ones. The 40 years might have a different numerical meaning than what it was originaly translated from.

What you describe is folklore which is common in many cultures. Some of it might have historical basis but the Hebrew folk lore has little basis in history. Also there were no such things as Jews back then because the letter J only existed during the Middle Ages.

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How about the Asian imigrants (the era within the vicinity of the Hyksos), many of them nomadic tribes or peasants and whom according to some historians, were referred to as the "hibiru" by the Kemetians; what do you make of them? Although these nomads aren't the ancestors of all Jews, nonetheless many Jews tend to hold that view.

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If you read Josephus he seems to identify the Hebrews with the Hykos[foreign princes of the East]. Manetho calls them Phonecians and Arabs. The Hibiru are first mentioned in the Tell-Amarna tablets written in Akkadian to Akenaten from the Caanite king that the Hibiru were trouble makers. Obviously they caused much trouble for the Caanites. Remeber also that much of the Levant and Palestine[Caanan] was under hegemony of Egypt during this period around the New Kingdom.

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You can look at this biblically.

Even in the bible it says Jacob and his family of 70 men went into Egypt and lived there for over 300 years.

That alone backs what I'm saying even though they weren't slaves in Egypt.

How does a family of 70 men miracuously become 12 tribes in Egypt anyway?

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Maybe it's a different number translated into Hebrew.

The name “Hebrew” could also be related to the seminomadic Habiru people, who are recorded in Egyptian inscriptions of the 13th and 12th centuries BC as having settled in Egypt.

We have evidence that war captives in Egypt were mainly Asian. Asiatic immigration is known in the late 12th dynasty and became widespread in the 13th. From the late 18th century BC the northeastern Delta was settled by successive waves of Palestinians, who retained their own material culture.

Here's a link i found interesting.

Kinda reminds me of the over emphasis on the 6 million Jews who perished during World War II, when in fact there were over 61 million human fatalities during that tragic conflict. The Soviet Union, alone, lost over 25 million people-dead!

There's far too much emphasis on the 400 years of Hebrews living in a society that flourished for more than 4000 years!

quote:

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Originally posted by Wally:
Why, in the name of Amon, is all this emphasis on the Hebrews and the Jews in Kemet? Hollywood? Good Press? Effective propaganda??

Kinda reminds me of the over emphasis on the 6 million Jews who perished during World War II, when in fact there were [b]over 61 million human fatalities during that tragic conflict. The Soviet Union, alone, lost over 25 million people-dead!

There's far too much emphasis on the 400 years of Hebrews living in a society that flourished for more than 4000 years!

Do you see what I mean...[/B]

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Certainly. This whole thing about Jews in Egypt, actually degenerated from someone's point that the Jews had nothing to do with Egypt's great accomplishments; the monuments and the great pyramids. The whole point of the Jewish slave in this whole picture, is to simply take away from Egyptians, the symbols of their hard work. As pointed out earlier, the fact that AE didn't have an economy dependent on slave labor, in itself was adequate to rebut this notion of Jewish slave workforce. At any rate, concrete evidence uncovered, contradicts the whole notion of slave labor as being responsible for the Pyramid constructions!

second time i try posting....

The Jews –hapirws – and other tribes were good at keeping garnisons, on borderline zones. Maybe they had better equipement and experience.

Egypt Hollywood,
Slavery? maybe under the Hyksos & under domination periods, else,
I see Ancient Egypt as multi-cultural, multi-class, multi religion, and each group of people worked on what they were best skilled at.
The temples, the canals, the tombs, the pyramids, orchestrated by architects, and executed by the people against tributes paid for their work.
.

A part from the traders of foreign markets and luxury products, I suppose most of the activities were focused on the seasons, the moment when the earth becomes arable. During the weeks of inundation and before, there was plenty of time and needs for other activities, such as building houses, roads, temples, tombs, I think it’s possible that Egyptian SAty’s, fellahs, or whatever had more then one “profession”, and I believe servants and slaves were a small minority and reserved to the higher medium class, traders, militaries, scribes, and maybe some artists.

Imagine having a small piece of Land, and growing cereals for your family, you would then want to make your life better, and when Pharaoh needs main-d’oeuvre, to build a canal, a temple or a school, you would like to be hired to improve your living conditions.

During the dry season Smw the canals are finished or repaired, and higher up temples and tombs are completed faster (more workers) during the Axt inundation. Everyone is waiting anxiously for Sirius to appear, and wp wawet, open the year with Sobdet, the prt processions. Most “Kmtyw?”’s would know how to build, and dig up canals.
Prt, the time to be at home and take care of land, reap and later on harvest and stock, count, share.

Later on your son would get a job facility on the canal you work on, or to start a priesthood, or would have the possibility to study to become scribe, accountant teacher or doctor. The doctors operated tumours and made pregnancy tests and their contracts were elaborate, the quality of the materials, the incredible skill of the goldsmiths, (there is a long tradition of quality in many professions). No doubt science, writing, poetry, architecture, medicine and art moved steps ahead. The loss of Alexandria’s manuscript temple I would think the geo-economical situation and development of the populations along the Nile depended on the quality of the flood.

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Now here is something interesting...

There are all kinds of AE "fantasies" out there, such as, extraterrestrial origins of the pyramids and civilization (the new "Predator Vs Alien" movie hints on this); flying Egyptian vehicles; dark skin-white race origins of Egyptian civilization; Egyptian Pharaohs routinely being depicted as ruthless tyrants in hollywood movies, whom enslaved large masses of their own people (like in the "10 commandments", "the Mummy", "Futurama"); bulk of pyramid builders being depicted as slaves in children story books and movies; contemporary black Egyptians being explained off as descendants of slaves or captives of the Egyptian empire; traditions from the Ancient Egyptian era written off as "completely" vanished; the sphinx and the pyramids explained as the work of some vanished pre-dynastic advanced culture before the Egyptians or Kemetians; Egyptians having no clue of nationalism, so as to even proclaim a Marsian as Pharaoh; the real Cleopatra having looked something like the actress who depicted her, namely Elizabeth Taylor; and so on. Some of these fantasies are more out there than others. Which fantasies would you consider the most ridiculous?

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Most books that I have read seem to state the Dendera lightbulb was a snake in a lotus motif. Not much of an lightbulb but had some spirtual meaning.

What's your perpective of light bulbs and flying machines in ancient Egypt?

quote:

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Originally posted by swam:
second time i try posting....

The Jews –hapirws – and other tribes were good at keeping garnisons, on borderline zones. Maybe they had better equipement and experience.

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Swam, again, what is all this fanfare about the Jews? Its irrelevant to the construction of the great monuments and pyramids, if this is somehow your motive for continuing to talk about what Jews today claim to be their ancestors!

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swam writes:
Egypt Hollywood,
Slavery? maybe under the Hyksos & under domination periods, else,
I see Ancient Egypt as multi-cultural, multi-class, multi religion, and each group of people worked on what they were best skilled at.

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What do you consider multi-class? I mean, there clearly was the elite Kemetians, who comprised the Pharaoh family and the Priests, and then there was the working class comprising soldiers and ordinary folks.

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swam writes:
The temples, the canals, the tombs, the pyramids, orchestrated by architects, and executed by the people against tributes paid for their work...A part from the traders of foreign markets and luxury products, I suppose most of the activities were focused on the seasons, the moment when the earth becomes arable. During the weeks of inundation and before, there was plenty of time and needs for other activities, such as building houses, roads, temples, tombs, I think it’s possible that Egyptian SAty’s, fellahs, or whatever had more then one “profession”, and I believe servants and slaves were a small minority and reserved to the higher medium class, traders, militaries, scribes, and maybe some artists. Imagine having a small piece of Land, and growing cereals for your family, you would then want to make your life better, and when Pharaoh needs main-d’oeuvre, to build a canal, a temple or a school, you would like to be hired to improve your living conditions. During the dry season Smw the canals are finished or repaired, and higher up temples and tombs are completed faster (more workers) during the Axt inundation. Everyone is waiting anxiously for Sirius to appear, and wp wawet, open the year with Sobdet, the prt processions...Most “Kmtyw?”’s would know how to build, and dig up canals...Prt, the time to be at home and take care of land, reap and later on harvest and stock, count, share.Later on your son would get a job facility on the canal you work on, or to start a priesthood, or would have the possibility to study to become scribe, accountant teacher or doctor. The doctors operated tumours and made pregnancy tests and their contracts were elaborate, the quality of the materials, the incredible skill of the goldsmiths, (there is a long tradition of quality in many professions). No doubt science, writing, poetry, architecture, medicine and art moved steps ahead. The loss of Alexandria’s manuscript temple I would think the geo-economical situation and development of the populations along the Nile depended on the quality of the flood.

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I take it that you went through all this trouble, as way of reiterating that the Kemetian economy didn't rely on slave labor, and thus not a rationale for the labor used in pyramid and monument construction.

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Originally posted by supercar:
Certainly. This whole thing about Jews in Egypt, actually degenerated from someone's point that the Jews had nothing to do with Egypt's great accomplishments; the monuments and the great pyramids. The whole point of the Jewish slave in this whole picture, is to simply take away from Egyptians, the symbols of their hard work. As pointed out earlier, the fact that AE didn't have an economy dependent on slave labor, in itself was adequate to rebut this notion of Jewish slave workforce. At any rate, concrete evidence uncovered, contradicts the whole notion of slave labor as being responsible for the Pyramid constructions!

[This message has been edited by supercar (edited 05 November 2004).]

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Originally posted by Orionix:
Slaves or not, Jews (then Hebrews) or Palestinians were present in Egypt. Don't deny the Exodus. We have evidence that war captives were mainly from Asia.

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Here you go again, making nonsensical replies that don't address the quotes you are posting. Tell me where, in the quote of mine you are referring to, I have mentioned anything about "jews" not being in Egypt?

Since you brought it up, despite its irrelevance to what I said earlier, do you have concrete proof of the exodus and what has war captives to do with exodus? This is the type of messed up thinking, that seems to be your problem.

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Originally posted by supercar:
Here you go again, making nonsensical replies that don't address the quotes you are posting. Tell me where, in the quote of mine you are referring to, I have mentioned anything about "jews" not being in Egypt?

Since you brought it up, despite its irrelevance to what I said earlier, do you have concrete proof of the exodus and what has war captives to do with exodus? This is the type of messed up thinking, that seems to be your problem.

Bottom line; what is your point about the presence of Jews in Egypt? What is big deal here, when it has nothing to do with the topic of thread, other than to say that slaves (whom some claimed to have been Jews)as builders of the great pyramids is one of the most ridiculous fantasies?

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There is no hard evidence to the Exodus but like it or not, some things mention in it did take place.

Hebrews were present in Egypt around 1800 BC (we don't know the number), maybe as war captives, maybe not.

Thus they didn't build the pyramids or anything but the book of Genesis tells us that around 1800 B.C. a famine in Canaan forced many Hebrews to migrate to Egypt. There, they were eventually enslaved. In time, Moses, the adopted son of the pharaoh's daughter (probably Ramases II), led the Hebrews in their escape, or exodus, from Egypt. For 40 years, the Hebrews wandered in the Sinai Peninsula. After Moses died, they entered Canaan and defeated the people there, claiming for themselves the land they believed God had promised them.

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Originally posted by ausar:
Artermi, that seems to be an Eric Von Daniken fixation. To find modern eletronic appliances in ancient civlizations. I would say that it's possible that ancient Egyptians might have small powered batteries that produced small voltage. Such examples from antiquity such as the Bagdad battery prove this to be the case.

Most books that I have read seem to state the Dendera lightbulb was a snake in a lotus motif. Not much of an lightbulb but had some spirtual meaning.

What's your perpective of light bulbs and flying machines in ancient Egypt?

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I think the flying machines are real in terms of innovative IDEAS. AE were very mathemitically inclined people who liked design and building geomerically astounding statues and Pyramids. I think the flying machines were probably machines/tools that they thought of to make their daily lives better. Just how if we were to get inside of the developmental labs of most industrialized nations we would find designs of "future" machines/tools that we think would make our lives easier. If they actually did make these machines we would have found some remains of them by now.

However, if there was a thriving nation that existed 40,000 years ago with the same technology that we have today and along comes a devastating natural disaster (like an asteriod collision) hit that place and with wiped out 50% of live on earth with it; it would be hard to find remains of that place. But this is not the case with AE and I'm just projecting and being hypothetical.

I think that the electric flashlight is symbolic. In the scene it appears that they are worshiping and being submissive to the pharoh....The "snake in the light" seems like a sword with a snake engraved in the center and the Pharoh is showing his power and reverence that he has!

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Originally posted by Orionix:
There is no hard evidence to the Exodus but like it or not, some things mention in it did take place.

Hebrews were present in Egypt around 1800 BC (we don't know the number), maybe as war captives, maybe not.

Thus they didn't build the pyramids or anything but the book of Genesis tells us that around 1800 B.C. a famine in Canaan forced many Hebrews to migrate to Egypt. There, they were eventually enslaved. In time, Moses, the adopted son of the pharaoh's daughter (probably Ramases II), led the Hebrews in their escape, or exodus, from Egypt. For 40 years, the Hebrews wandered in the Sinai Peninsula. After Moses died, they entered Canaan and defeated the people there, claiming for themselves the land they believed God had promised them.

[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 06 November 2004).]

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You finally understood my point though you labelled my post as a fanfare.

BOT, I saw pics of flying saucers hieroglyphs, which to me were two glyphs passed over each other and corrected.
One would have to see the originals to have a real opinion.

The “electric light” may have been gas, Tut ankh amon’s lighter always intrigued me too.

yes, the briquet, or lighter, was it used with sulfur?

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Originally posted by Keino:
You cannot use the bible as factual evidence...

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Orionix’s comments here only amount to a red herring , considering that he is arguing about the presence of the purported ancestors of Jews with basically no one. He speaks of the exodus as absolute fact, even though he couldn’t provide evidence for it. Again, he is really not arguing with anyone. If anything, this is what I said earlier:

“For instance, while its probable that mass exodus had taken place, where is the actual evidence that supports it? If we were to look everything from the perspective of various faiths (which faith will you single out?) , which don’t always agree with one another, why even bother to look for or analyze available concrete evidence, which could potentially tell different stories?”

If this is what inspired him to bring up the subject of the exodus, well then, he has once again taken things out of their original context!

This brings me to the following, which the entire comment from which I took the above quote, seeks to address :

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Orionix writes:
“…the book of Genesis tells us that around 1800 B.C. a famine in Canaan forced many Hebrews to migrate to Egypt. There, they were eventually enslaved. In time, Moses, the adopted son of the pharaoh's daughter (probably Ramases II), led the Hebrews in their escape, or exodus, from Egypt. For 40 years, the Hebrews wandered in the Sinai Peninsula. After Moses died, they entered Canaan and defeated the people there, claiming for themselves the land they believed God had promised them.”

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Originally posted by swam:
I was not relating Jews with building pyramids..

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Nor did I accuse you of doing so.

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swam:
A part from Pharaoh and all his staff, and from the Priests, multi class means more then two classes, the middle class would have been for example traders, artists, scribes, doctors, teachers, judges and so on, in the lower class the intendants of the houses, (cooks, cleaners, gardeners) in a even lower class the poor.

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Well, I guess that would be a matter of interpretation. I tend to look at it from the perspective of the Kemetian elite (ruling class) and working class (people of other walks of life).

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swam:
You finally understood my point though you labelled my post as a fanfare.

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Here's an interesting senerio for the Exodous tradition:

94.0520
de MOOR, Johannes C., Geen Uittocht - Wel Uittocht? Nieuw licht op de Exodus uit Egypte, Kampen, Theologische Universiteit van de Gereformeerde Kerken in Nederland, 1994 = Kamper Oraties, 6. (15 x 21 cm; 20 p., ill., map). ISBN 90-73954-13-4

The chancellor Beja (usually referred to as Bay) is identical with Moses, who led the Israelites out of Egypt. Among the evidence adduced for this identification are his name, which contains the element 'Moses,' an ostracon which may have been written by Beja, the fact of his close relations with Tausret, which may have inspired the biblical story of the Egyptian princess who adopted Moses, and an apparent lack of respect for the Egyptian gods in Beja's surviving monuments. The Elephantine stela of Sethnakht suggests that Beja and his followers fled Egypt, and it is a telling detail that they took along Egyptian silver and gold. If Tausret was among those who accompanied Beja, it is conceivable that, as Meryamun, she is to be identified with Moses' sister Miriam. Attestations of Tausret have been found at various places along the route of the Exodus. W.H.

My recommendation to understand the complex relationship between Egypt and Canaan[modern Palestine] is to read the book by Donald Redford entitled Egypt, Canaan,and Israel. Also check out Israel Finkelstien's The Bible Unearthed.

The main reason that irrational fantasies persist is that humans tend to view recent or current events as being real, as part of their current existance, anything beyond that becomes a fantasy, and anything's "possible."

For example, if you told someone that in the 1950's people lived to be 500 years, or that this guy raised a piece of wood and parted a sea and people walked through it..., people would know that you were crazy!

But talk about something farther removed from an individuals own immediate reality, and all things, even the most ridiculous, become possible...