quote:

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Originally posted by alTakruri:

Assuming you mean cases where a city in TaNehesy has the double
determinative nwt.x3st, we need to find the texts that these dictionary
entries are derived from. Reading the words in their proper context
should give us plenty of good clues that will hold more weight than
logical speculation.

[This message has been edited by alTakruri (edited 16 December 2004).]

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I would agree to a point, it would be helpful to have the words written in a specific context, but I doubt it is absolutely necessary, if we only avoid the simplistic rendering of a word, without taking into account its complexities, you know, its synonyms;antonyms; euphemisms;(excellent example of this simplistic approach is the attempt to make the word Kmt mean only "black soil" and nothing else (I know it doesn't...).

If we can completely understand the meanings of these two crucial words Nwt/Khast, I think we solve the problem (ie, we're looking for ideology here, not an historical event)...

I think maybe while looking out to debunk misconceptions about Nubia
some of what I wrote may have slipped by you. I say this because some
of the things youve brought up only reiterate what Ive already said and
they do not answer the questions Ive asked you.

The stuff in the brochure is the flesh of what I skeletized though I got it from
Wms in his Archaeoligy Magazine article and from other sources. That the
A group started the ball rolling and were in control of TaShemaw is the first
thing I posted on this topic.

quote:

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>> Leading up to dynastic times, the cultures from the Dal cataract and on
northward were very similar and there was no central political authority.
The A group are the first to implement a state structure with a political
head.The end of Naqada II sees the unification of the Two Lands and
a southern border -- the 1st cataract/Biga -- marking TaWy from TaSeti.
This southernmost nome is also named TaSeti because before the
dynastic era the land from Biga northward to Nag el Hasaya was
under A group authority. <<

---

I later clarified it

quote:

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>> I will use the less precise term Nubia.
The Nubians were the first to form a centralized
state with a king. They controlled the area
of Nubia and as almost as far north as Edfu.
All this region was then TaSeti.x3st. <<

---

and gave this

quote:

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>> Primary documents contemporary with the A group give the name of their
state. As far as we now know it was the first polity of royal status on the Nile.
The self given name of the A group state was TaSeti.

These documents are
the Siali storage cache seal
the Djebel Sheikh Suleiman graffito <<

---

On the TaNehesy thing, I explained how its use was a generic one
for a region and in the Red And Yellow thread and elswhere already
showed NHSW was a class not any one particular ethny. I repeated
that a few times. It wasnt subtle and I dont know why it was confused
instead of delineated in the replies.

quote:

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>> I thought it was established in another thread that the root NHS means
south. If we can accept that then TaNehesy is Land of the Southerners.
The A group are in TaNehesy, the Land of the Southerners.

Other populations upriver from them are also in TaNehesy hence the generic
regional term applicable to any state or ethny south of TaShemau. <<

---

Misunderstandung is easy enough in written communication and even
more so when trying to condense hustorical matters into the brief space
of a BBS post. I can only plead for a slow and careful reading of what I
write.

Hope you and everyone have a wonderful weekend and looking forward
to more great discussions and learnings from the best group for independent
thought and reasearch for Nile Valley Civilization and related topics on the net !

quote:

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Originally posted by alTakruri:

The lands and peoples south of the 1st nome were not under the Kmt polity.
Their polity was Wawat. A cultural demarcation also began to distinguish
the two peoples. Kmt embraced writing while TaSeti and Kesh to the south
of it did not.

---

"Wawat" means "rebel" in the Mdu Ntr. The "Wawatu" were therefore considered to be Kememu who rebelled against the state...
If there was a distinction, wouldn't it be as inferred, a political one?

Origins of the *Nut glyph

quote:

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The fixing of the clans in nomes is an important stage in the very remote history of Egypt...Each nome comprises a territory and a capital...The town, Nut, built at a road-crossing, as its word-sign indicates, is surrounded by a circular defence. Within is the collection of wattle-and-daub huts, in which ploughmen, herdsmen, and travelers, leaving the unsafe country, take refuge at night from the attacks of nomads. --The Nile and Egyptian Civilization by Alexandre Moret;Dover (2001)(1927); pp40-42

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...as early as Naqada III

quote:

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The rival chiefdoms of the Naqada III phase (3500-3300 B.C.E.) resided in fortified towns...Stout circular walls of mud bricks with bastions and gates have been archaeologically documented; these are the remnants of forts or citadels to which the inhabitants could retire in the case of conflict. --The Mind of Egypt by Jan Assman;Harvard University Press (2002); pp35-36

---

Kemetian City Naming Method

quote:

---

Every great town had a "vulgar" name without definite meaning (at any rate, for us), of which many examples survive---Teni, Zebti, Shashetep, Saut, etc. These place-names were replaced by a series of "sacred" names after the establishment in all the cities of the historical gods. The capital is called the House (per), Mansion (het), Town (nut), Shrine (zebat), Sanctuary (sekhem), Pillar (iun), or Sceptre (uast, uabu) of such-and-such a deity. Above all, the great temple of the place imposes its name on the whole city; all the capitals are described as "House of so-and-so"; for example, **Busiris means "House of Osiris", Bubastis means "House of Bast", etc. --Ibid Alexandre Moret;pp49-50

---

How much does this shed new light on this:

quote:

---

Diodorus on the origins of the Egyptians;
The Ethiopians say that the Egyptians are one of their colonies, which was led into Egypt by Osiris. They claim that at the beginning of the world Egypt was simply a sea but that the Nile, carrying down vast quantities of loam from Ethiopia in its flood waters, finally filled it in and made it part of the continent...They add that the Egyptians have received from them, as from authors and their ancestors, the greater part of their laws. -Universal History, book III

---

So what do you think...
---------------------------------------------
Notes:
* for those who may be confused by the different renderings of "Nwt", in the feminine form of the Kemetian noun the 't' is silent:
Nut;Nwt (written)
Nu (vocalized)

also like;
Sa - a guy (sah)
Sat - a gal ("say" or "see")

**actually "bu" means "place" or "state of condition" as in "bu nafret" = "a good place" or "a good situation"

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
alTakruri, good responses as usual, look forward to more of your posts.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Wally, I hope you are working on writing a book on Kemet. You dedication to research is impressive. Ausar: Same applies to you. You are both able to offer insight and perspective that goes beyound much of the available literature.

---

Thanks,
You know we are all, by our postings, "writing" a book and all are contributing to the further accumulation of knowledge of Kemet. Even the mischievousness of the small minded racists on this forum, have allowed us, as you have pointed out, to advance the knowledge.

But a realbook, I think, as you have suggested, should be done by Ausar, and for several reasons;

a) He's from Upper Egypt (or as Diop calls it, Egypt Proper),

b) He lives in the West, and therefore as a Westerner has access which is important,

c) He has a broader focus on the subject than I do. My aim is to purposely focus on the subjective political and cultural ideologies of the Kememu. This would only be good for a chapter (perhaps the most important one) of a complete text.

And
it is far past time for a Proper Egyptian to write a Proper examination of the history and culture of Ancient Egypt.

Long past due...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kem-Au:
I've been doing some checking on the Book of the Dead, and it seems Egyptians also used the city determinant for cities in heaven as well as in Egypt. I could be wrong though. I found a book that lists the chapters in mdu ntr and English, but the don't show all of the mdu ntr. Some parts are left out. Not sure why.

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That's correct, the "Nu" determinant would be used to indicate heaven and the "Khast" or "foreign" determinative would be used to indicate "hell";

Khast:
foreign country;cemetery or necropolis; abode of the dead
Khasti:
foreigners; barbarians
Khastiu:
the four great nations of Sudan

The "Nu" or Ancient Egyptian cities 'outside' of Egypt

The following cities are written with the "nu(t)" determinative, which indicates an Egyptian settlement:

in Nubia

Itafti
Perme
P_Selke
Patnemut
Mehi
Snhaqarha
Taudjat
Tantur (Dendur)
Tal
Tahet
Taqa
Tema
Thamens
Du Hetet ("white mountains" - northern Nubian desert)

Sudan

Anruar
Ila (Meroe)
Eirtinai
Isdersa
Agna
Ymol (?)
Pagem
Napata
Nhana
Skarga
Sarsar
Saksakdi
Katardi
Garr
Tarreq
Tar...Shemo
Teqnen

cities with the dual "khast/nu" determinatives

Abu (Elephantine)
Ebot (Abydos) (see below)
Ahu (in Sudan)
Iawaabi (Philae)
Pilak (Philae)
Aboshke (near Abu Simbel)
Alma
Wawat
Bak (in Nubia)
Bukem (Sudanese country)

Anomolies
It is always the exceptions that prove the rule. The only places outside of Egypt and Sudan that I found which contain the "Nu" determinative are:

Eiras (a district in Syria)
Ashar (Syria)
Aribi (Arabia)
Bekten (Asiatic country; unknown location)

However, what all of these locations have in common is that they are all qualified by using the "kemau" determinative along with the "khast" or the combination of the "kemau" sign atop the middle peak in the "khast" symbol (it looks like a flag atop a mountain);

Kemau: boomerang -- to overthrow; overturn; to cast aside

Would it not be logical to conclude that the words "kemau khast" with "nu" suggest a country colonized by Egypt? Perhaps, but it was also used in one example by Budge as a determinative for the city of Abydos. Interesting...

We can at least be emphatic that the determinative "Nu", used alone, meant an Egyptian settlement or community--a component of the Egyptian nation; "Nu" used with "Khast" meant, at the least, a place inhabited by Egyptians and also by foreign elements...(see Herodotus, book II for an example of this)

-- Egyptian cities that bordered Libya also had this dual "Khast/Nu" determinative...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kem-Au:
Makes sense. BTW, which version of the Book of the Dead do you have?

---

I'm using this text:
The Egyptian Book of the Dead: (The Papyrus of Ani) Egyptian Text Transliteration and Translation by E.A. Wallis Budge Dover

another small point:
You may want to check this point also, in the text there are several occasions where the word "Tawi" occurs, in which Budge translates it as "Egypt", however if you look closely the word is not written with the two "Nu" (Niut) determinatives but with the determinative "Ateb" (Atebiut) - The word "Ateb" refers specifically to the earth, soil, or ground and probably (?) refers to the two worlds (of opposites; good/evil-heaven/hell-living/dead).

Tawi (niut) means literally "the two nations; communities; districts; etc"
Tawi (atebiut) means "the two lands; worlds; earths; etc"
it's a subtle, but important distinction, like the difference between Kemet (nu) - "Black nation" and Kemet (boeit) "Black cow"...

The Wawat
What I'm really interested in is that a so-called "Nubian" people or territory "Wawat" is designated by the Egyptians as an Egyptian territory (nu) and which is described by them as being a rebellious one at that ("Wawat" means "Rebels") - was this a typical situation where southern Egyptians (including the Nubians) were constantly rebelling against the state?
Did "Egyptology" create this false "apartheid" of Egypt above and below aswan? It's beginning to look like it. I think the natural and historical southern borders of Egypt extended far into the Sudan. We'll find out, for sure...

quote:

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Did "Egyptology" create this false "apartheid" of Egypt above and below aswan? It's beginning to look like it. I think the natural and historical southern borders of Egypt extended far into the Sudan. We'll find out, for sure

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
I hope you do. I've leaned towards this conclusion since absorbing the A-Group data which is not compatible imho with the conventional Egypt/Nubia dialectic which IS a wst dialectic. It's funny the Kememu had deshr/km....but [wst] teaches egypt/nubia. Whose history is it anyway?

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I'm woikin on it. But I invite everyone else to look into this also. Here's some pictures I put together which may give an idea of what I'm talking about... http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/Example.html

quote:

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Originally posted by kenndo:
I THINK the borders of nubia at first really reached into upper egypt.Egypt or more so upper egypt was really the break away province.
BUT anyway,the reason lower nubia always rebelled from egypt because lower nubia had a state before egypt,and like any other people,they do not like being conquered.

---

I agree with that and think geography and archaeaology tend
to support your conclusion.

quote:

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Originally posted by kenndo:
I THINK the borders of nubia at first really reached into upper egypt.Egypt or more so upper egypt was really the break away province.
BUT anyway,the reason lower nubia always rebelled from egypt because lower nubia had a state before egypt,and like any other people,they do not like being conquered.

---

I agree with the first part, but I'm going back and forth on the second part. People occupying Lower Nubia could have had many reasons to fight their northern neighbors, but the region was supposed to be very inhospitable at least until the reign of Ramses II. This could be the reason why different groups of people occupied this area at different times. So it wouldn't make sense that they we rebelling against Egypt because they were there first.

quote:

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I agree with the first part, but I'm going back and forth on the second part. People occupying Lower Nubia could have had many reasons to fight their northern neighbors, but the region was supposed to be very inhospitable at least until the reign of Ramses II. This could be the reason why different groups of people occupied this area at different times.

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It is as if we were attempting to understand references to Nordic Europe: valhalla, barbarian, etc.....without taking into consideration the different social, political and philosophical conceptions of something we prefer to apply one label to.

Town;Village;City
There are at least nine words for these in the Mdu Ntr (osha-t, baki, Dimai-t, Temi, Kot, Karte, Garta, Dimé , Nu-t):
1a) Dimé (ateb): in general(EWB 879b)(Coptic:Timé)
1b) Dimé (ateb-nu): Egyptian village;etc
2) Nu-t (Nwt): Egyptians only!
The etymology of the word "nu-t" is (349-50)
Nu: they, them
Nu/Nun: the primeval waters from where everything originated
The following words are written using the "nu-t" glyph (350b,351a):
Nuit: the Sky-goddess
Nuti: the day sky/the night sky
Nu-t: an Egyptian village, hamlet, town, city, community, settlement
Nuti: "local" (a so-called "nisbe" from the word "nu-t")
Nuti-werti (khast): a district in the Duat (The Other World, hence "khast" and not "nu-t")
Nutenehtt (khast): the "everlasting city" in the Duat

Land
There are at least 13 words for land in the Mdu Ntr (Amait, Ikhu-t, Eirit, Oka, Eiten, Adjebu, Adebu, Ndebu, Ha-t, Honbe-t, Ateb, Khast, Ta )
Ateb: Land, region, territory - used as a determinative
Khast: Foreign land, region, territory, or place
Ta (Ateb): ground, earth, soil, dust
Ta-t (Nu): Egyptian land, ground, earth
Tawi (ateb-ateb): Two Lands
Tawi (nu-nu): Two Egyptian Lands (ie, the "two kingdoms")

Egyptian Colonies
Gorge/Grege: to found, establish, or settle a country
In the Mdu Ntr we have;
Dimé ateb nu gorge: "towns colonized (founded, settled, or established) by Egypt" (812a)

The Kmt :Dshrt distinction
There are no "Nwt" towns or settlements in either Asia or Libya, only in Egypt, Nubia, and the Sudan. In his book "Middle Egyptian : An Introduction to the Language and Culture of Hieroglyphs", James P. Allen confirms the correct translation of Dshrt, even though he uses an example which was probably rare in the Mdu Ntr:

Ex: nfr dshrwt: "the red ones are beautiful" (p68)

So we have:
Red ones/peoples
Dshrwt, Dshrtjw; Dshrtw; and Dshrw and...
Black ones/peoples
Kmwt; Kmtjw; Kmtw; and Kmemw
--Kemut; Kemetiu; Kemetu; and Kememu

From the first cataract to the sixth (almost to Khartoum)

Wawat (khast)(nu)(kemau-khast): literally "Rebel territory"; actually explains the different possessions.
Irthet (khast) (961b)
Sethu (?)
Kush(khast)(kemau-khast)
---Ekushi (nu-sa):a Kushite man/Egyptian (95a)
Mazoi(kemau)(kemau-khast)
Napata(nu): Egyptian
---Ta Waab (Napata): "Holy Land" (1050b)
Karoy (?)(khast)(1046)
Yam (?)
Meroe (nu)(khast)
Barue (nu): Meroe

All specifically Nubian towns are written with the "Nwt" determinative, which indicates that Nubia was Egypt's southern most province.

Sudanese locations are written with the "khast" determinative

The Egyptian Frontier
Although, historically the borders of Egypt were constantly changing, the African lands beyond its southern borders were called "Ethaosh"("Ethoshi";"Ethaoshu"), and earlier scholars give this term as the etymology of the word "Ethiopia".
It took extreme linguistic gymnastics to come up with "Aithen(?)" + "ops" to get to the Greek "burnt faces", even in light of Martin Bernal's revealing the substantial amount of words of Egyptian origin in the Greek language.
Herodotus, in his histories, only referred to a people's color when he used it to compare the Black Egyptians to the Black Colchians in order to establish what he felt to be a connection, mentioning in passing that there were other Black nations as well. He didn't write other Ethiopian nations. In fact, the only physical comparisons regarding Ethiopians was when he informs us that the Ethiopians of Asia and those of Libya resembled one another, except that the Asian Ethiopians have straight hair while those of Libya had the wooliest hair he'd ever seen.
In essence, Herodotus, as well as the other ancient authors, uses the term "Ethiopian" in the same manner the Egyptians used the word "Ethaoshi"...

quote:

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James P. Allen confirms the correct translation of Dshrt, even though he uses an example which was probably rare in the Mdu Ntr: Ex: nfr dshrwt: "the red ones are beautiful"

---

To read an Hieroglyphic dictionary is to realise that "the author's know", exactly what dshwrt/Kmtjw mean and are referring to.

I'm not even sure it's fair to accuse them of pulling the wool over the eyes of their readers....the reader needs to pull the wool over his/her own eyes in order to evade the meaning of words.

quote:

---

It took extreme linguistic gymnastics to come up with "Aithen(?)" + "ops" to get to the Greek "burnt faces", even in light of Martin Bernal's revealing the substantial amount of words of Egyptian origin in the Greek language.

---

From Harkhuf's Journeys (Km.t[rome] travels to Yam, Punt, accounts of Irhet, Sethu, etc)
First Journey from Aswan [c. 2300 B.C.E]

The majesty of Mernere, my lord, sent me, together with my father, the sole companion, and ritual priest Iri to Yam, in order to explore a road to this country [of the south]. I did it in only seven months and I brought all (kinds of) gifts from it... I was greatly praised for it.

Second Journey

His majesty sent me a second time alone; I went forth upon the [Aswan] road, and I descended from Irthet, Mekher, Tereres, Irtheth, being an affair of eight months. When I descended I brought gifts from this country in very great quantity. Never before was the like broght to this land. I descended from the dwelling of the chief of Sethu and Irthet, after I had explored these countries. Never had any companion or caravan-conductor who went forth to Yam before this, done (it).

Third Journey

His majesty now sent me a third time to Yam; I went forth from--upon the--road, and I found the chief of Yam going to the land of Temeh to smite Temeh as far as the western corner of heaven. I went forth after him to the land of Temeh, and I pacified him, until he praised all the gods for the king's sake... Now when I had pacified that chief of Yam... I found the chief of Irthet, Sethu and Wawat... I descended with three hundred asses laden with incense, ebony, heknu, grain, (panthers), ivory, (throw sticks), and every good product. Now when the chief of Irthet, Sethu, and Wawat saw how strong and was numerous was the troop of Yam, which descended with me to the court, and the soldiers who had been sent with me, (then) this (chief) brought and gave to me bulls and small cattle, and conducted me to the roads of the highlands of Irthet, because I was more excellent, vigilant, and--than any count, companion or caravan-conductor who had been sent to Yam before. Now when the servant there [i.e., himself] was descending to the court (of the Pharaoh), one [i.e., the Pharaoh] sent the... master of the bath, Khuni, upstream with a vessel laden with date wine, (cakes), bread and beer. . .

Fourth Journey

This time Harkhuf returned with "a dancing dwarf of the god from the land of the spirits, like the dwarf which the treasurer Burded brought from Punt in the time of Isesi." Informed of this, the Pharaoh writes as follows: "Come northward to the court immediately; thou shalt bring this dwarf with thee, which thou bringest living, prosperous and healthy from the land of the spirits, for the dances of the god, to rejoice and (gladden) the heart of the king of Upper and Lower Egypt, Neferkere, who lives forever. When he goes down with thee into the vessel, appoint excellent people, who shall be beside him on each side of the vessel; take care lest he fall into the water. When (he) sleeps at night appoint excellent people, who shall sleep beside him in his tent; inspect ten times a night. My majesty desires to see this dwarf more than the gifts of Sinai and of Punt...

The majesty of my lord sent me, to hack up Wawat and Irthet. I did so that my lord praised me. I slew a great number there consisting of chiefs' children and excellent commanders... I brought a great number of them to the court as living prisoners, while I was at the head of many mighty soldiers as a hero. The heart of my lord was satisfied with me in every commission with which he sent me.

Second Expedition

Now, the majesty of my lord sent me to pacify these countries. I did so that my lord praised me exceedingly, above everything. I brought the two chiefs of these countries to the court in safety, bulls and live (goats)... together with the chief's children, and the two commanders of--who were with them http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/texts/harkhuf.htm

quote:

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Originally posted by Wally:

Nuti-werti (khast): a district in the Duat (The Other World, hence "khast" and not "nu-t")
Nutenehtt (khast): the "everlasting city" in the Duat

Land
There are at least 13 words for land in the Mdu Ntr (Amait, Ikhu-t, Eirit, Oka, Eiten, Adjebu, Adebu, Ndebu, Ha-t, Honbe-t, Ateb, Khast, Ta)

Khast: Foreign land, region, territory, or place

Black ones/peoples
Kmwt; Kmtjw; Kmtw; and Kmemw
--Kemut; Kemetiu; Kemetu; and Kememu

From the first cataract to the sixth (almost to Khartoum)

Wawat (khast)(nu)(kemau-khast): literally "Rebel territory"; actually explains the different possessions.
Irthet (khast) (961b)
Sethu (?)

Kush(khast)(kemau-khast)
---Ekushi (nu-sa):a Kushite man/Egyptian (95a)
Mazoi(kemau)(kemau-khast)
Napata(nu): Egyptian
---Ta Waab (Napata): "Holy Land" (1050b)
Karoy (?)(khast)(1046)
Yam (?)
Meroe (nu)(khast)
Barue (nu): Meroe

All specifically Nubian towns are written with the "Nwt" determinative, which indicates that Nubia was Egypt's southern most province.

Sudanese locations are written with the "khast" determinative

The Egyptian Frontier
Although, historically the borders of Egypt were constantly changing, the African lands beyond its southern borders were called "Ethaosh"("Ethoshi";"Ethaoshu"), and earlier scholars give this term as the etymology of the word "Ethiopia".
It took extreme linguistic gymnastics to come up with "Aithen(?)" + "ops" to get to the Greek "burnt faces", even in light of Martin Bernal's revealing the substantial amount of words of Egyptian origin in the Greek language.

[This message has been edited by Wally (edited 29 December 2004).]

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The posting of timely relevant documents from scholarly authors
is one of the hi lites of this group. What I enjoy even more is the
original work like the above example that complement professional
with new paradigms, I snipped the pieces that stood out the most for
me.

R3nMdw textual evidence supports that nwt was not used in Dwat
references with the meaning of settlement. This is why the nwt
determinative in Kmt,nwt and Dshrt.nwt in the Gate of Teka Hra
yields the meaning of broad community.

Wally I have a question about the x3st determinative. When if ever
can it be read as smt in topographical usage? Gardiner calls the
glyph itself x3st and Budge uses it phonetically as smt. I think I have
seen it used this way in the names of certain kings.

In pictorial representations of Kmt's traditional enemies the Nine Bows
--- which incidently that appellative doesn't use st as the word for bow ---
four of the bows are Nhsw (southerners). How do their individual names
relate to the names commonly applied to Nhsyw peoples and places?
Were they of Lower Nubia (todays southernmost Egypt and northernmost
Sudan) or Upper Nubia (todays northern central Sudan)?

It sure seems more probable that Aethiops was the Greeks best try
garbled pronunciation of one of the variants of Ethaosh. Its seems
only coincidental that they related the single R3nMdw word to two
Greek words whose meaning they applied to any and all very dark
skinned persons and nationalities. After all it wasn't just the faces of
these people that were of a burnt colour.

You also kind of cleared up the question of the name of Meroe. Since
b & m are labials and u & o are the semivowel w, we can see how Barue
could have become Meroe.

.

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
To read an Hieroglyphic dictionary is to realise that "the author's know", exactly what dshwrt/Kmtjw mean and are referring to.

I'm not even sure it's fair to accuse them of pulling the wool over the eyes of their readers....the reader needs to pull the wool over his/her own eyes in order to evade the meaning of words.

---

The interesting thing about this is that it seems to correspond with the proto-dynastic period. It would be interesting to understand the implications of ecological degradation on Ta-Seti and the foundations of ancient Kemetic society. Perhaps a reduction in the Nile flow had a profound impact on civilization between the first and second cataracts.

Ohio State University
2004-12-24
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/12/041219142907.htm

Major Climate Change Occurred 5,200 Years Ago: Evidence Suggests That History Could Repeat Itself

COLUMBUS, Ohio -- Glaciologist Lonnie Thompson worries that he may have found clues that show history repeating itself, and if he is right, the result could have important implications to modern society.
Thompson has spent his career trekking to the far corners of the world to find remote ice fields and then bring back cores drilled from their centers. Within those cores are the records of ancient climate from across the globe.
From the mountains of data drawn by analyzing countless ice cores, and a meticulous review of sometimes obscure historic records, Thompson and his research team at Ohio State University are convinced that the global climate has changed dramatically.
But more importantly, they believe it has happened at least once before, and the results were nearly catastrophic to emerging cultures at the time. He outlined his interpretations and fears today at the annual meeting of the American Geophysical Union in San Francisco.
A professor of geological sciences at Ohio State and a researcher with the Byrd Polar Research Center, Thompson points to markers in numerous records suggesting that the climate was altered suddenly some 5,200 years ago with severe impacts.
He points to perfectly preserved plants he discovered that recently emerged from the Quelccaya ice cap in the Peruvian Andes as that glacier retreats. This monstrous glacier, some 551 feet (168 meters) deep, has shown an exponentially increasing rate of retreat since his first observations in 1963.
The plants were carbon-dated to determine their age and tests indicated they had been buried by the ice for perhaps 5,200 years. That suggests that somehow, the climate had shifted suddenly and severely to capture the plants and preserve them until now.
In 1991, hikers found the preserved body of a man trapped in an Alpine glacier and freed as it retreated. Later tests showed that the human – dubbed Oetzi – became trapped and died around 5,200 years ago.
Thompson points to a study of tree rings from Ireland and England that span a period of 7,000 years. The point in that record when the tree rings were narrowest – suggesting the driest period experienced by the trees – was approximately 5,200 years ago.
He points to ice core records showing the ratio of two oxygen isotopes retrieved from the ice fields atop Africa’s Mount Kilimanjaro. A proxy for atmospheric temperature at the time snow fell, the records are at their lowest 5,200 years before now.
He lists the shift by the Sahara Desert from a habitable region to a barren desert; major changes in plant pollen uncovered from lakebed cores in South America, and the record lowest levels of methane retrieved from ice cores from Greenland and Antarctica and all occurred at the same time – 5,200 years ago.
“Something happened back at this time and it was monumental,” Thompson said. “But it didn’t seem monumental to humans then because there were only approximately 250 million people occupying the planet, compared to the 6.4 billion we now have.
“The evidence clearly points back to this point in history and to some event that occurred. It also points to similar changes occurring in today’s climate as well,” he said.
“To me, these are things we really need to be concerned about.” The impact of a climate change of that magnitude on a modern world would be tremendous, he said. Seventy percent of the population lives in the world’s tropics and major climate changes would directly impact most of them.
Thompson believes that the 5,200-year old event may have been caused by a dramatic fluctuation in solar energy reaching the earth. Scientists know that a historic global cooling called the Little Ice Age, from 1450 to 1850 A.D., coincided with two periods of decreased solar activity.
Evidence shows that around 5,200 years ago, solar output first dropped precipitously and then surged over a short period. It is this huge solar energy oscillation that Thompson believes may have triggered the climate change he sees in all those records.
“The climate system is remarkably sensitive to natural variability,” he said. “It’s likely that it is equally sensitive to effects brought on by human activity, changes like increased greenhouse gases, altered land-use policies and fossil-fuel dependence.
“Any prudent person would agree that we don’t yet understand the complexities with the climate system and, since we don’t, we should be extremely cautious in how much we ‘tweak’ the system,” he said.
“The evidence is clear that a major climate change is underway.”
Editor's Note: The original news release can be found here.

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

The interesting thing about this is that it seems to correspond with the proto-dynastic period. It would be interesting to understand the implications of ecological degradation on Ta-Seti and the foundations of ancient Kemetic society. Perhaps a reduction in the Nile flow had a profound impact on civilization between the first and second cataracts.

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.
What remains of the Palermo Stone could help with this since it
records Nile flood levels year by year.

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alTakruri wrote:
Wally I have a question about the x3st determinative. When if ever
can it be read as smt in topographical usage? Gardiner calls the
glyph itself x3st and Budge uses it phonetically as smt. I think I have
seen it used this way in the names of certain kings.

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I think Khast (x3st) and Semt(smt) are interchangeable, and pretty much depends on the context:
Semt or Khast: hill, cemetary, desert
Semai(Sm3j):Set
Semaiut: Devils
...pretty much the same as Khast

(Khast/Semti)King Dan
Now, for King Dan of the 1st dynasty the "smt" could mean any of the following:
a)He belonged to the Seth clan as opposed to that of Horus
b) He was from Khast (Khois), the capital of Ka Khast ("Bull of the Desert"), the 6th Nome of Lower Egypt, or...
c)He was a foreigner or barbarian (unlikely)

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Originally posted by Wally:
I think Khast (x3st) and Semt(smt) are interchangeable, and pretty much depends on the context:
Semt or Khast: hill, cemetary, desert
Semai(Sm3j):Set
Semaiut: Devils
...pretty much the same as Khast

[b](Khast/Semti)King Dan
Now, for King Dan of the 1st dynasty the "smt" could mean any of the following:
a)He belonged to the Seth clan as opposed to that of Horus
b) He was from Khast (Khois), the capital of Ka Khast ("Bull of the Desert"), the 6th Nome of Lower Egypt, or...
c)He was a foreigner or barbarian (unlikely)

The Hyksos
Since we know the history of these peoples, the title preceding a couple of Hyksos kings is Hq Kh3st. This one's easy:
Hek Khast = foreign ruler
Hek Khasi = a particular one
Hek Khasu = foreign rulers; which all of them were referred to...[/B]

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Thank you for researching this for me. I dont have all the material
do it myself and appreciate you taking aside your time to do this for me!