quote:Originally posted by rasol: The 3rd Reich film propaganda also popularised this form of argument in Germany.
They would show the images of the ideal Aryan, and contrast with the scowling Jew, pointing to the 'Semetic' features as sign of 'obvious' moral and intellectual degeneracy, that everyone 'knew' to be true anyway, or course.
Then they'd shock cut to images of rats running thru the sewers of Germany and people dieing, in case they had been too subtle, up until then!
It also looks like pure comedy today, so you have to remind yourself that base as it was, scared and angry often ignorant people, drunk on hate, ignored the complete lack of logic, the obvious contradictions, and bought into it anyway.
Stupid analogy. Germans and Jews come in many different phenotypes. Nordics and Mediterraneans represent single phenotypes. Therefore, comparing a metrically perfect Nordic to a metrically perfect Mediterranean can provide information regarding the similarities or differences between the two types. In this case, it shows them to be nearly identical in skeletal form, just as I stated.
That Nazi tactic sounds more like Afronut propaganda that shows one photo of a dark-skinned Moor and extrapolates from it that "the Moors were black", which everyone 'knows' to be true anyway, of course. Pure comedy, indeed.
The Nazi's went to great lengths purge Germany of "impure" elements. Some Nazi's felt that they had to even get rid of Christianity and return to Paganism because the Near Eastern roots of the religion.
Indeed eliminating Judeo-Christianity was a next 'logical' step in the NAZI purification process.
posted
But note that Coon wrote a book titled "THE RACES OF EUROPE" and John Baker, another quack and hack, argued in his 1974 comic book that Africans were the last to arrive at the Homo sapiens level.
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posted
the Nazi's never concidered a return to paganism. This is just more Afrocrentic mythology. They take a statement made by one person and try to expand it to the entire nazi organization.
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quote:the Nazi's never concidered a return to paganism. This is just more Afrocrentic mythology. They take a statement made by one person and try to expand it to the entire nazi organization.
ROTFL! The Professor is now speaking on behalf of the NAZI party. Tell us more!
posted
want more...we could say that you know even less about german history than you do about AE but then we know that history is not your concern but rather radical black politics.
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quote:Originally posted by Evil Euro: Germans and Jews come in many different phenotypes.
Thought Writes:
Evil Euro seems to attribute greater diversity to Europeans than Africans. Science and COMMON SENSE indicate that the opposite is true. Humans have lived in Africa longer and Africa is larger than Europe, hence populations in Africa are more diverse in phenotype. This is why we see hot/dry adapted Africans like Oromo and hot/moist adapted Africans like the Yoruba. The genetic evidence from the PN2 transition proves that all of these Africans (including Berbers) share in closely related male lineages.
posted
Instead of resurrecting old threads to post pictures of your Justin Timberlake-looking boyfriend, how about refuting these simple facts?
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Instead of resurrecting old threads to post pictures of your Justin Timberlake-looking boyfriend, how about refuting these simple facts?
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quote:Notice Evil Euro's silence after that explanation of the intermediate position- its deafening. Judging by inability to properly read and interpret a study.
*Two possible explanations are offered: The first is recent gene flow from the Middle East, and the second is common ancestry shared with OOA migrants. The authors, citing previous research, favor the latter position*
The fact that the authors favor the latter position refutes you, because you said this
“On the Y-chromosome, judging by the language in the quote, we can assume that it's close to 50%. That's a whole lot of non-African DNA.”
So it actually refutes your argument that Somalis are hybrid mixtures of Eurasians and sub-Saharans. At least you’ve gathered this much and truly understand that you did in fact misinterpret the language in that quote.
*What that says is that pre-historic East Africans were distinct from sub-Saharan Africans.*
What that says is that northeast Africans genetically fissioned off from sub-Saharans, no more no less. That fissioning occured long before there was any E3b.
*So distinct in fact that their genetic legacy in East Africa causes modern populations to veer away from Africans and toward Eurasians.*
What are you talking about? Prehistoric-East Africans were completely African in origin, not non-African, so that makes non-Africans closer to pre-historic East Africans, not the other way around. Non-Africans are descended from a small group of East Africans who migrated out of Africa. That makes Eurasians more closely related to East Africans than to other world populations. You have everything backwards.
**This is terrible news for Afronuts who believe that OOA lineages like E3b make non-Africans more African. In reality, the opposite is true. They make the Africans who possess them less African and more Eurasian*
Terrible job at interpreting data. Eurasians who possess E3b are in reality more African and less Eurasian for the fact that both E3b and prehistoric East Africans are both African in origin and Eurasians descend from a small population in East Africa, not the other way around. Learn how to properly interpret studies, for those same studies you misinterpret state the reverse of everything you say.
quote: rasol writes: We have a winner.
EuroDisney exhibits:
* Inability and/or lack of interest in accurately comprehending his own select citations.
* Inability and/or unwillingness to answer the questions begged by the profound contradictions inherent in his irrational ethnocentric ideology.
* Inability and/or unwillingness to honestly engage the issue of Southern Europes' heterogeneous heritage which includes ancestry from Black Africa.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 26 February 2005).]
Greeks clearly related to Africans on some DNA markers according to 3 recent DNA studies
Study #1
HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks A. Arnaiz-Villena, K. Dimitroski, A. Pacho, J. Moscoso, E. Gómez-Casado, et. alTissue Antigens (2001) Volume 57, Issue 2 , Pages118 - 127
sub-Saharan affinities of the Greeks
From abstract: "1) Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles.. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt." -------------------------------------------------------------------
Study #2
From: "Population genetic relationships between Mediterranean populations determined by HLA allele distribution--a historic perspective." A. Arnaiz-Villena , E. Gomez-Casado, J. Martinez-Laso. Tissue Antigens, Volume 60, Number 2, August 2002, pp 111-121(11)
QUOTES:
"HLA genomics shows that: 1) Greeks share an important part of their genetic pool with sub-Saharan Africans (Ethiopians and West Africans) also supported by Chr 7 Markers. The gene flow from Black Africa to Greece may have occurred in Pharaonic times or when Saharan people emigrated after the present hyperarid conditions were established (5000 years BC)... some of the Negroid populations may have migrated (16, 19, 31) towards present-day Greece . This could have occurred when arid Saharan conditions became established and large-scale migrations occurred in all directions from the desert. In this case, the more ancient Greek Pelasgian substratum would come from a Negroid stock.(2)"
"Other Negroid genes have also been found in Greeks. They are the only Caucasoid population who bears cystic fibrosis mutations typical of Black Africans (Chromosome 7). See Dork, et al. In Am. J. Hum. Genet, 1998: 63: 656-682." "A more likely explanation is that some time during Egyptian pharaonic times a Black dynasty with their followers were expelled and went towards Greece . Indeed, ancient Greeks believed that their religion and culture came from Egypt (37, 38). Also, Herodotus (37)states that the daughters of Danaus (who were black) came from Egypt in great numbers to establish a presence in Greece . Otherwise, the Hyksos pharaohs and their people were expelled from Egypt and may have reached Greece by 1540 B.C. However, the Hyksos are believed to come from modern Israel and Syria . Other gene input from Ethiopians (meaning ‘‘Blacks’’ in ancient Greek) may have come from King Memmon from Ethiopia and his troops, who went to help the Greeks against Troy according to Homer’s Iliad. Having identified an African input to the ancient Greek genetic pool, it remains to determine the cultural importance of this input for constructing the classical Hellenistic culture.. -------------------------------------------------- ----------------------
Study #3
"HLA genes in Southern Tunisians (Ghannouch area) and their relationship with other Mediterraneans." European Journal Medical Genetics. 2006 Jan-Feb;49(1):43-56. A, Hmida S, Kaabi H, Dridi A, Jridi A, El Gaa l ed A, Boukef K.
QUOTES:
"South Tunisian HLA gene profile has studied for the first time. HLA-A, -B, -DRB1 and -DQB1 allele frequencies of Ghannouch have been compared with those of neighboring populations, other Mediterraneans and Sub-Saharans. Their relatedness has been tested by genetic distances, Neighbor-Joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. Our HLA data show that both southern from Ghannouch and northern Tunisians are of a Berber substratum in spite of the successive incursions (particularly, the 7th-8th century A.D. Arab invasion) occurred in Tunisia. It is also the case of other North Africans and Iberians. This present study confirms the relatedness of Greeks to Sub-Saharan populations. This suggests that there was an admixture between the Greeks and Sub-Saharans probably during Pharaonic period or after natural catastrophes (dryness) occurred in Sahara."
Older anthropological research- Anthropologists, studying old remains of Greeks, sometimes found sub-Saharan-like individuals: J. Lawrence Angel, in American Anthropologist, New Series, Vol. 74, No. 1/2 (Feb. - Apr., 1972) [review of Frank Snowden's "Blacks in Antiquity" book] reports:
Quote: In my own skeletal samples from Greece I note apparent negroid nose and mouth traits in two of fourteen Early Neolithic (sixth millenium B.C.), only two or three more among 364 from fifth to second millenium B.C., one among 113 Early Iron Age, one or two among 233 Classic and Hellenistic skeletons, but four clear Negroids (all from one area of Early Christian Corinth) among ninety-five Roman period, two among eighty-five Medieval, and of course ten among fifty-two Turkish period Greeks, yet none among 202 of Romantic (nineteenth century) date.
Quote from Biological Relations of Egyptians and Eastern Mediterranean Populations during pre-dynastic and Dynastic Times, Journal of Human Evolution, 1972 (1) pp. 307-313:
Quote: "Against this background of disease, movement and pedomorphic reduction off body size one can identify Negroid (Ethiopic or Bushmanoid?) traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters (McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers (Angel, 1972), probably from Nubia via the predecesors of the Badarians and Tasians [. . .]"
Frank Snowden, who passed away in 2007 at age 96, had researched the presence of blacks in the ancient Greece from the standpoint of art and literature. His findings include:
Quote: Both the literary and archaeological evidence points to a not infrequent crossing between blacks and whites. Nothing in the observations on such unions, whether marriage or concubinage, resembles certain modern strictures on racial mixture.
Of course one reason for the color bar which recently existed in the West was the belief that it was race mixing which led to the collapse of Greek, Roman, and other civilizations. . . .
No laws in the Greco-Roman world prohibited unions of blacks and whites. Ethiopian blood was interfused with that of Greeks and Romans. No Greek or Roman author condemned such racial mixture. . . . The scientists Aristotle and Pliny, like Plutarch, commented as scientists on the physical appearance of those born of black-white racial mixture but included nothing resembling certain modern strictures on miscegenation. . . . It is safe to assume, therefore, that in course of time many Ethiopians were assimilated into a predominantly white population. (Blacks in Antiquity, 193-195)
With respect to the number of blacks in ancient Greece, Snowden states: Quote: Even though we cannot state, in the manner of modern sociologists and historians,the ratio of Blacks to Whites in either Greece or Italy, we can say that Ethiopians were by no means few or rare sights and that their presence, whatever their numbers, constituted no color problem. (Blacks in Antiquity, 186)
Snowden also mentions: Quote: Black-white sexual relations were never the cause of great emotional crises and many blacks were physically assimilated into the predominantly white populations of the Mediterranean world.
...the number of references to Ethiopians in Greek literature of the fifth century BC, on the appearance of mulatto children following the presence of blacks in Greece in the army of Xerxes, and on the many artistic representations of the mid- and late-fifth century BC reflecting this anthropological evolution.
Other DNA studies using different African populations than Arnaiz-Villena found the same clustering of Africans. Egyptians, grouped closer with other Africans like Mandenka, and Moroccans, than with Europeans.
Petlichkovski et. al. High-resolution typing of HLA-DRB1 locus in the Macedonian population. Tissue Antigens. 2004 Oct;64(4):486-91.
"A phylogenetic tree constructed on the basis of the high-resolution data deriving from other populations revealed the clustering of Macedonians together with other Balkan populations (Greeks, Croats, Turks and Romanians) and Sardinians, close to another "European" cluster consisting of the Italian, French, Danish, Polish and Spanish populations. The included African populations grouped on the opposite side of the tree..."
"As expected, the included African populations (Moroccans, Egyptians, Mandenka, and Algerians) were grouped on the opposite side of the tree... Bearing in mind the differences in the allele frequencies in the Macedonians in our study and those in the study of Arnaiz-Villena et al., we believe that the discordance of the observations in both the studies investigating the HLA polymorphism is probably due to the selection of different subject populations."
Mainstream histories note significant cultural interchange from Egypt and the Near East to Greece
"No aspect of this question is more discussed at present than the relation between Greece and the near East, especially Egypt. Some nineteenth-century scholars wished to downplay or deny any significant cultural influence of the Near East on Greece, but that was plainly not the ancient Greek view of the question. Greek intellectuals of the historical period proclaimed that Greeks owed a great deal to the older civilization of Egypt, in particular in religion and art. Recent research agrees with this ancient opinion. Greek sculptors in the Archaic Age chiseled their statutes according to a set of proportions established by Egyptian artists. Greek mythology, the stories that the Greeks told themselves about their deepest origins and their relations to the gods, was infused with stories and motifs of Near Eastern origin. The clearest evidence of the influence of Egyptian culture in Greek is the store if seminal religious ideas that flowed from Egypt to Greece: the geography of the underworld, the weighing of the souls of the dead in scales, the life-giving properties of fire as commemorated in the initiation ceremonies of the international cult of the goddess Semeter of Eleusis (a famous site in Athenian territory), and much more.
These influences are not surprising because archaeology reveals that the population inhabiting Greece had diplomatic and commercial contact with the Near East as early as the middle of the second millennium B.C... When the Greeks learned from the peoples of the Near East, they made what they learned their own. This is how cultural identity is forged, not by mindless imitation or passive reception." (pg. 21)
"The civilizations of Mesopotamia and Anatolia particularly overshadowed those of Crete and Greece in the size of their cities and the development of extensive written legal codes. Egypt remained an especially favored destination of Mycenean voyagers throughout the late Bronze Age because they valued the exchange of goods and ideas with the prosperous and complex civilization of that land." (pg 30)
-- (From: Thomas R. Martin (2000) Ancient Greece: From Prehistoric to Hellenistic Times. Yale University Press, pg 21, 30)
Greeks, Egypt and the Near East - some influences
Architecture:
"It is not, of course, to be supposed that these coastmen and islanders of the Ægean were without some rudimentary notions of art of their own. In the time of Thothmes III., there were already Cypriote settlers making Cypriote pottery, and inscribing their pots with Cypriote characters at Tell Gurob. In the time of Meneptah, the Lycians and Carians and Achæans were ship-builders and workers in bronze; and we may take it for granted that they fashioned rude Cyclopean temples, like the primitive temple discovered a few years ago in Delos, with probably an upright stone for a god. But architecture, sculpture, and original decorative art, we may be sure they had none.
And the proof that they had none is found in the fact that the earliest known vestiges of Greek architecture, Greek sculpture, and Greek decorative art are copied from Egyptian sources.
It is not at all strange that the Greeks should have borrowed their first notions of architecture and decoration from Egypt, the parent of the arts; but that they should have borrowed architectural decoration before they borrowed architecture itself, sounds paradoxical enough. Yet such is the fact; and it is a fact for which it is easy to account.
The most ancient remains of buildings in Greece are of Cyclopean, or, as some have it, of Pelasgic origin; and the most famous of these Cyclopean works are two subterraneous structures known as the Treasury of Atreus and the Treas- [Page 168] ury of Minyas–the former at Mycenæ, in Argolis, the latter at Orchomenos, in Boeotia. Both are built after the one plan, being huge dome-shaped constructions formed of horizontal layers of dressed stones, each layer projecting over the one next below, till the top was closed by a single block. The whole was then covered in with earth, and so buried. Such structures scarcely come under the head of architecture, in the accepted sense of the word.
Now, whether the Pelasgi were the rude forefathers of the Aryan Hellenes, or whether they were a distinct race of Turanian origin settled in Greece before Hellas began, is a disputed question which I cannot pretend to decide; but what we do know is, that the prehistoric ruins of Mycenæ and Orchomenos are four hundred, if not five hundred, years older than the oldest remains of the historic school. Of all that happened during the dark interval which separated the prehistoric from the historic, we are absolutely ignorant.
If, however, the builders of Mycenæ and Orchomenos were Pelasgians, and if the builders of the earliest historic temples were Hellenes, it is, at all events, certain that the Pelasgians went to Egypt for their surface decoration, and the Hellenes for their architectural models. Moreover–and this is very curious–they both appear to have gone to school to the same place. That place is on the confines of Middle and Upper Egypt, about one hundred and seventy miles above Cairo, and its modern name is Beni-Hasan.
The rock-cut sepulchres of Beni-Hasan are among the famous sights of the Nile. They are excavated in terraces at a great height above the river, and they were made for the great feudal princes who governed this province under the Pharaohs of the Twelfth Dynasty. Their walls are covered with paintings of the highest interest; their ceilings are rich in polychromatic decoration; and many are adorned with pillared porches cut in the solid rock. (43)
It is to be remembered that the foundation of the Twelfth Egyptian Dynasty–the great dynasty of the Usertesens and Amenemhats–dates from about 3000 to 2500 years before [Page 169] Christ. These Beni-Hasan sepulchres are therefore older by many centuries than the so-called "Treasuries" of Orchomenos and Mycenæ.
Now, at Mycenæ, near the entrance to the Treasury of Atreus, there stands the base and part of the shaft of a column decorated with a spiral ornament, which here makes its first appearance on Greek soil. This spiral (though it never achieved the universal popularity of the meander, or "key pattern," or of the misnamed "honeysuckle pattern" ) became in historic times a stock motive of Hellenic design; and all three patterns–the spiral, the meander, and the honeysuckle–have long been regarded as purely Greek inventions. But they were all painted on the ceilings of the Beni-Hasan tombs full twelve hundred years before a stone of the Treasuries of Mycenæ or Orchomenos was cut from the quarry. The spiral, either in its simplest form, or in combination with the rosette or the lotus, is an Egyptian design. The rosette is Egyptian; and the honeysuckle, which Mr. Petrie has identified as a florid variety of the lotus pattern, (44) is also distinctly Egyptian." - by Amelia Edwards, Pharaohs Fellahs and Explorers; Chapter 5: Egypt the Birthplace of Greek Decorative Art., 1891. Source: [URL=http://digital.library.upenn.edu/w omen/edwards/pharaohs/pharaohs-5.html =]Link[/URL]
"A striking change appears in Greek art of the seventh century B.C., the beginning of the Archaic period. The abstract geometric patterning that was dominant between about 1050 and 700 B.C. is supplanted in the seventh century by a more naturalistic style reflecting significant influence from the Near East and Egypt. Trading stations in the Levant and the Nile Delta, continuing Greek colonization in the east and west, as well as contact with eastern craftsmen, notably on Crete and Cyprus, inspired Greek artists to work in techniques as diverse as gem cutting, ivory carving, jewelry making, and metalworking (1989.281.49-.50). Eastern pictorial motifs were introduced—palmette and lotus compositions, animal hunts, and such composite beasts as griffins (part bird, part lion), sphinxes (part woman, part winged lion), and sirens (part woman, part bird). Greek artists rapidly assimilated foreign styles and motifs into new portrayals of their own myths and customs, thereby forging the foundations of Archaic and Classical Greek art." - Source: Greek Art in the Archaic Period | Thematic Essay | Heilbrunn Timeline of Art History | The Metropolitan Museum of Art
"Design was monumental but not architecturally complex and employed posts and lintels, rather than arches, although Egyptian expertise in stone had a strong influence on later Greek architecture....
The history of art and architecture in Ancient Greece is divided into three basic eras: the Archaic Period (c.600-500 BCE), the Classical Period (c.500-323 BCE) and the Hellenistic Period (c.323-27 BCE). About 600 BCE, inspired by the theory and practice of earlier Egyptian stone masons and builders, the Greeks set about replacing the wooden structures of their public buildings with stone structures - a process known as 'petrification'. Limestone and marble was employed for columns and walls, while terracotta was used for roof tiles and ornaments. Decoration was done in metal, like bronze...
Architectural Methods of Ancient Greece
Like the Egyptians, the Greeks used simple post-and-lintel building techniques." - Source: visual-arts-cork.com
I think the following sums up undeniable 'western' fascination with and romanticization of ancient Egypt:
A SCHOLAR of no less distinction than the late Sir Richard Burton wrote the other day of Egypt as "the inventor of the alphabet, the cradle of letters, the preacher of animism and metempsychosis, and, generally, the source of all human civilization." This is a broad statement; but it is literally true. Hence the irresistible fascination of Egyptology–a fascination which is quite unintelligible to those who are ignorant of the subject. - Amelia Edwards, 1891. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Greece and the Near East
[quote:] "No aspect of this question is more discussed at present than the relation between Greece and the near East, especially Egypt. Some nineteenth-century scholars wished to downplay or deny any significant cultural influence of the Near East on Greece, but that was plainly not the ancient Greek view of the question. Greek intellectuals of the historical period proclaimed that Greeks owed a great deal to the older civilization of Egypt, in particular in religion and art. Recent research agrees with this ancient opinion. Greek sculptors in the Archaic Age chiseled their statutes according to a set of proportions established by Egyptian artists. Greek mythology, the stories that the Greeks told themselves about their deepest origins and their relations to the gods, was infused with stories and motifs of Near Eastern origin. The clearest evidence of the influence of Egyptian culture in Greek is the store if seminal religious ideas that flowed from Egypt to Greece: the geography of the underworld, the weighing of the souls of the dead in scales, the life-giving properties of fire as commemorated in the initiation ceremonies of the international cult of the goddess Semeter of Eleusis (a famous site in Athenian territory), and much more.
These influences are not surprising because archaeology reveals that the population inhabiting Greece had diplomatic and commercial contact with the Near East as early as the middle of the second millennium B.C... When the Greeks learned from the peoples of the Near East, they made what they learned their own. This is how cultural identity is forged, not by mindless imitation or passive reception. (pg. 21)
"The civilizations of Mesopotamia and Anatolia particularly overshadowed those of Crete and Greece in the size of their cities and the development of extensive written legal codes. Egypt remained an especially favored destination of Mycenean voyagers throughout the late Bronze Age because they valued the exchange of goods and ideas with the prosperous and complex civilization of that land." (pg 30)
[endquote] -- (From: Thomas R. Martin (2000) Ancient Greece: From Prehistoric to Hellenistic Times. Yale University Press, pg 21, 30) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Greece and the Near East- Pt 2
"It is not, of course, to be supposed that these coastmen and islanders of the Ægean were without some rudimentary notions of art of their own. In the time of Thothmes III., there were already Cypriote settlers making Cypriote pottery, and inscribing their pots with Cypriote characters at Tell Gurob. In the time of Meneptah, the Lycians and Carians and Achæans were ship-builders and workers in bronze; and we may take it for granted that they fashioned rude Cyclopean temples, like the primitive temple discovered a few years ago in Delos, with probably an upright stone for a god. But architecture, sculpture, and original decorative art, we may be sure they had none.
And the proof that they had none is found in the fact that the earliest known vestiges of Greek architecture, Greek sculpture, and Greek decorative art are copied from Egyptian sources.
It is not at all strange that the Greeks should have borrowed their first notions of architecture and decoration from Egypt, the parent of the arts; but that they should have borrowed architectural decoration before they borrowed architecture itself, sounds paradoxical enough. Yet such is the fact; and it is a fact for which it is easy to account.
The most ancient remains of buildings in Greece are of Cyclopean, or, as some have it, of Pelasgic origin; and the most famous of these Cyclopean works are two subterraneous structures known as the Treasury of Atreus and the Treas- [Page 168] ury of Minyas–the former at Mycenæ, in Argolis, the latter at Orchomenos, in Boeotia. Both are built after the one plan, being huge dome-shaped constructions formed of horizontal layers of dressed stones, each layer projecting over the one next below, till the top was closed by a single block. The whole was then covered in with earth, and so buried. Such structures scarcely come under the head of architecture, in the accepted sense of the word.
Now, whether the Pelasgi were the rude forefathers of the Aryan Hellenes, or whether they were a distinct race of Turanian origin settled in Greece before Hellas began, is a disputed question which I cannot pretend to decide; but what we do know is, that the prehistoric ruins of Mycenæ and Orchomenos are four hundred, if not five hundred, years older than the oldest remains of the historic school. Of all that happened during the dark interval which separated the prehistoric from the historic, we are absolutely ignorant.
If, however, the builders of Mycenæ and Orchomenos were Pelasgians, and if the builders of the earliest historic temples were Hellenes, it is, at all events, certain that the Pelasgians went to Egypt for their surface decoration, and the Hellenes for their architectural models. Moreover–and this is very curious–they both appear to have gone to school to the same place. That place is on the confines of Middle and Upper Egypt, about one hundred and seventy miles above Cairo, and its modern name is Beni-Hasan.
The rock-cut sepulchres of Beni-Hasan are among the famous sights of the Nile. They are excavated in terraces at a great height above the river, and they were made for the great feudal princes who governed this province under the Pharaohs of the Twelfth Dynasty. Their walls are covered with paintings of the highest interest; their ceilings are rich in polychromatic decoration; and many are adorned with pillared porches cut in the solid rock. (43)
It is to be remembered that the foundation of the Twelfth Egyptian Dynasty–the great dynasty of the Usertesens and Amenemhats–dates from about 3000 to 2500 years before [Page 169] Christ. These Beni-Hasan sepulchres are therefore older by many centuries than the so-called "Treasuries" of Orchomenos and Mycenæ.
Now, at Mycenæ, near the entrance to the Treasury of Atreus, there stands the base and part of the shaft of a column decorated with a spiral ornament, which here makes its first appearance on Greek soil. This spiral (though it never achieved the universal popularity of the meander, or "key pattern," or of the misnamed "honeysuckle pattern" ) became in historic times a stock motive of Hellenic design; and all three patterns–the spiral, the meander, and the honeysuckle–have long been regarded as purely Greek inventions. But they were all painted on the ceilings of the Beni-Hasan tombs full twelve hundred years before a stone of the Treasuries of Mycenæ or Orchomenos was cut from the quarry. The spiral, either in its simplest form, or in combination with the rosette or the lotus, is an Egyptian design. The rosette is Egyptian; and the honeysuckle, which Mr. Petrie has identified as a florid variety of the lotus pattern, (44) is also distinctly Egyptian." - by Amelia Edwards, Pharaohs Fellahs and Explorers; Chapter 5: Egypt the Birthplace of Greek Decorative Art., 1891. Source: Link
"A striking change appears in Greek art of the seventh century B.C., the beginning of the Archaic period. The abstract geometric patterning that was dominant between about 1050 and 700 B.C. is supplanted in the seventh century by a more naturalistic style reflecting significant influence from the Near East and Egypt. Trading stations in the Levant and the Nile Delta, continuing Greek colonization in the east and west, as well as contact with eastern craftsmen, notably on Crete and Cyprus, inspired Greek artists to work in techniques as diverse as gem cutting, ivory carving, jewelry making, and metalworking (1989.281.49-.50). Eastern pictorial motifs were introduced—palmette and lotus compositions, animal hunts, and such composite beasts as griffins (part bird, part lion), sphinxes (part woman, part winged lion), and sirens (part woman, part bird). Greek artists rapidly assimilated foreign styles and motifs into new portrayals of their own myths and customs, thereby forging the foundations of Archaic and Classical Greek art." - Source: Greek Art in the Archaic Period | Thematic Essay | Heilbrunn Timeline of Art History | The Metropolitan Museum of Art
"Design was monumental but not architecturally complex and employed posts and lintels, rather than arches, although Egyptian expertise in stone had a strong influence on later Greek architecture....
The history of art and architecture in Ancient Greece is divided into three basic eras: the Archaic Period (c.600-500 BCE), the Classical Period (c.500-323 BCE) and the Hellenistic Period (c.323-27 BCE). About 600 BCE, inspired by the theory and practice of earlier Egyptian stone masons and builders, the Greeks set about replacing the wooden structures of their public buildings with stone structures - a process known as 'petrification'. Limestone and marble was employed for columns and walls, while terracotta was used for roof tiles and ornaments. Decoration was done in metal, like bronze...
Architectural Methods of Ancient Greece
Like the Egyptians, the Greeks used simple post-and-lintel building techniques." - Source: visual-arts-cork.com
I think the following sums up undeniable 'western' fascination with and romanticization of ancient Egypt:
A SCHOLAR of no less distinction than the late Sir Richard Burton wrote the other day of Egypt as "the inventor of the alphabet, the cradle of letters, the preacher of animism and metempsychosis, and, generally, the source of all human civilization." This is a broad statement; but it is literally true. Hence the irresistible fascination of Egyptology–a fascination which is quite unintelligible to those who are ignorant of the subject. - Amelia Edwards, 1891.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Greece and the Near east- pt 3
The immigration of Greeks to Egypt for the purpose of their education, began as a result of the Persian invasion (525 B.C.), and continued until the Greeks gained possession of that land and access to the Royal Library, through the conquest of Alexander the Great. Alexandria was converted into a Greek city, a centre of research and the capital of the newly created Greek empire, under the rule of Ptolemies. Egyptian culture survived and flourished, under the name and control of the Greeks, until the edicts of Theodosius in the 4th century A.D., and that of Justinian in the 6th century A.D., which closed the Mystery Temples and Schools, as elsewhere mentioned. (Ancient Egypt by John Kendrick Bk. II p. 55; Sandford's Mediterranean World p. 562; 570).
Concerning the fact that Egypt was the greatest education centre of the ancient world which was also visited by the Greeks, reference must again be made to Plato in the Timaeus who tells us that Greek aspirants to wisdom visited Egypt for initiation, and that the priests of Sais used to refer to them as children in the Mysteries.
As regards the visit of Greek students to Egypt for the purpose of their education, the following are mentioned simply to establish the fact that Egypt was regarded as the educational centre of the ancient world and that like the Jews, the Greeks also visited Egypt and received their education. (1) It is said that during the reign of Amasis, Thales who is said to have been born about 585 B.C., visited Egypt and was initiated by the Egyptian Priests into the Mystery System and science of the Egyptians. We are also told that during his residence
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in Egypt, he learnt astronomy, land surveying, mensuration, engineering and Egyptian Theology. (See Thales in Blackwell's source book of Philosophy; Zeller's Hist. of Phil.; Diogenes Laertius and Kendrick's Ancient Egypt).
(2) It is said that Pythagoras, a native of Samos, travelled frequently to Egypt for the purpose of his education. Like every aspirant, he had to secure the consent and favour of the Priests, and we are informed by Diogenes that a friendship existed between Polycrates of Samos and Amasis King of Egypt, that Polycrates gave Pythagoras letters of introduction to the King, who secured for him an introduction to the Priests; first to the Priest of Heliopolis, then to the Priest of Memphis, and lastly to the Priests of Thebes, to each of whom Pythagoras gave a silver goblet. (Herodotus Bk. III 124; Diogenes VIII 3; Pliny N. H., 36, 9; Antipho recorded by Porphyry).
We are also further informed through Herodotus, Jablonsk and Pliny, that after severe trials, including circumcision, had been imposed upon him by the Egyptian Priests, he was finally initiated into all their secrets. That he learnt the doctrine of metempsychosis; of which there was no trace before in the Greek religion; that his knowledge of medicine and strict system of dietetic rules, distinguished him as a product of Egypt, where medicine had attained its highest perfection; and that his attainments in geometry corresponded with the ascertained fact that Egypt was the birth place of that Science. In addition we have the statements of Plutarch, Demetrius and Antisthenes that Pythagoras founded the Science of Mathematics among the Greeks, and that he sacrificed to the Muses, when the Priests explained to him the properties of the right angled triangle. (Philarch de Repugn. Stoic 2 p. 1089; Demetrius; Antisthenes; Cicero de Natura Deorum III, 36). Pythagoras was also trained in music by the Egyptian priests. (Kendrick's Hist. of Ancient Egypt vol. I. p. 234).
(3) According to Diogenes Laertius and Herodotus, Democritus is said to have been born about 400 B.C. and to
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have been a native of Abdera in Miletus. We are also told by Demetrius in his treatise on "People of the Same Name", and by Antisthenes in his treatise on "Succession", that Democritus travelled to Egypt for the purpose of his education and received the instruction of the Priests. We also learn from Diogenes and Herodotus that he spent five years under the instruction of the Egyptian Priests and that after the completion of his education, he wrote a treatise on the sacred characters of Meroe.
In this respect we further learn from Origen, that circumcision was compulsory, and one of the necessary conditions of initiation to a knowledge of the hieroglyphics and sciences of the Egyptians, and it is obvious that Democritus, in order to obtain such knowledge, must have submitted also to that rite. Origen, who was a native of Egypt wrote as follows:—
"Apud Aegyptios nullus aut geometrica studebat, aut astronomiae secreta remabatur, nisi circumcisione suscepta." (No one among the Egyptians, either studied geometry, or investigated the secrets of Astronomy, unless circumcision had been undertaken).
(4) Concerning Plato's travels we are told by Hermodorus that at the age of 28 Plato visited Euclid at Megara in company with other pupils of Socrates; and that for the next ten years he visited Cyrene, Italy and finally Egypt, where he received instruction from the Egyptian Priests.
(5) With regards to Socrates and Aristotle and the majority of pre-Socratic philosophers, history seems to be silent on the question of their travelling to Egypt like the few other students here mentioned, for the purpose of their education. It is enough to say, that in this case the exceptions have proved the rule, that ail students, who had the means, went to Egypt to complete their education. The fact that history fails to supply a fuller account of this type of immigration, might be due to some or all of the following reasons:
(a) The immigration laws against the Greeks up to the time of King Amasis and the Persian Invasion, (b) Prose
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history was undeveloped among the Greeks during the period of their educational immigration to Egypt. (c) The Greek authorities persecuted and drove students of philosophy into hiding and consequently, (d) Students of the Mystery System concealed their movements.
Let us remember that Anaxagoras was indicted and imprisoned; that he escaped and fled to his home in Ionia, that Socrates was indicted, imprisoned and condemned to death; and that both Plato and Aristotle fled from Athens under great suspicion (William Turner's Hist. of Phil. p. 62; Plato's Phaedo; Zeller's Hist. of Phil. p. 84; 127; Roger's Hist. of Phil. p. 76; William Turner's Hist. of Phil. p. 126). 2. The Effects of the Conquest of Egypt by Alexander the Great. Greece and the Near East- Pt 2
"It is not, of course, to be supposed that these coastmen and islanders of the Ægean were without some rudimentary notions of art of their own. In the time of Thothmes III., there were already Cypriote settlers making Cypriote pottery, and inscribing their pots with Cypriote characters at Tell Gurob. In the time of Meneptah, the Lycians and Carians and Achæans were ship-builders and workers in bronze; and we may take it for granted that they fashioned rude Cyclopean temples, like the primitive temple discovered a few years ago in Delos, with probably an upright stone for a god. But architecture, sculpture, and original decorative art, we may be sure they had none.
And the proof that they had none is found in the fact that the earliest known vestiges of Greek architecture, Greek sculpture, and Greek decorative art are copied from Egyptian sources.
It is not at all strange that the Greeks should have borrowed their first notions of architecture and decoration from Egypt, the parent of the arts; but that they should have borrowed architectural decoration before they borrowed architecture itself, sounds paradoxical enough. Yet such is the fact; and it is a fact for which it is easy to account.
The most ancient remains of buildings in Greece are of Cyclopean, or, as some have it, of Pelasgic origin; and the most famous of these Cyclopean works are two subterraneous structures known as the Treasury of Atreus and the Treas- [Page 168] ury of Minyas–the former at Mycenæ, in Argolis, the latter at Orchomenos, in Boeotia. Both are built after the one plan, being huge dome-shaped constructions formed of horizontal layers of dressed stones, each layer projecting over the one next below, till the top was closed by a single block. The whole was then covered in with earth, and so buried. Such structures scarcely come under the head of architecture, in the accepted sense of the word.
Now, whether the Pelasgi were the rude forefathers of the Aryan Hellenes, or whether they were a distinct race of Turanian origin settled in Greece before Hellas began, is a disputed question which I cannot pretend to decide; but what we do know is, that the prehistoric ruins of Mycenæ and Orchomenos are four hundred, if not five hundred, years older than the oldest remains of the historic school. Of all that happened during the dark interval which separated the prehistoric from the historic, we are absolutely ignorant.
If, however, the builders of Mycenæ and Orchomenos were Pelasgians, and if the builders of the earliest historic temples were Hellenes, it is, at all events, certain that the Pelasgians went to Egypt for their surface decoration, and the Hellenes for their architectural models. Moreover–and this is very curious–they both appear to have gone to school to the same place. That place is on the confines of Middle and Upper Egypt, about one hundred and seventy miles above Cairo, and its modern name is Beni-Hasan.
The rock-cut sepulchres of Beni-Hasan are among the famous sights of the Nile. They are excavated in terraces at a great height above the river, and they were made for the great feudal princes who governed this province under the Pharaohs of the Twelfth Dynasty. Their walls are covered with paintings of the highest interest; their ceilings are rich in polychromatic decoration; and many are adorned with pillared porches cut in the solid rock. (43)
It is to be remembered that the foundation of the Twelfth Egyptian Dynasty–the great dynasty of the Usertesens and Amenemhats–dates from about 3000 to 2500 years before [Page 169] Christ. These Beni-Hasan sepulchres are therefore older by many centuries than the so-called "Treasuries" of Orchomenos and Mycenæ.
Now, at Mycenæ, near the entrance to the Treasury of Atreus, there stands the base and part of the shaft of a column decorated with a spiral ornament, which here makes its first appearance on Greek soil. This spiral (though it never achieved the universal popularity of the meander, or "key pattern," or of the misnamed "honeysuckle pattern" ) became in historic times a stock motive of Hellenic design; and all three patterns–the spiral, the meander, and the honeysuckle–have long been regarded as purely Greek inventions. But they were all painted on the ceilings of the Beni-Hasan tombs full twelve hundred years before a stone of the Treasuries of Mycenæ or Orchomenos was cut from the quarry. The spiral, either in its simplest form, or in combination with the rosette or the lotus, is an Egyptian design. The rosette is Egyptian; and the honeysuckle, which Mr. Petrie has identified as a florid variety of the lotus pattern, (44) is also distinctly Egyptian." - by Amelia Edwards, Pharaohs Fellahs and Explorers; Chapter 5: Egypt the Birthplace of Greek Decorative Art., 1891. Source: Link
"A striking change appears in Greek art of the seventh century B.C., the beginning of the Archaic period. The abstract geometric patterning that was dominant between about 1050 and 700 B.C. is supplanted in the seventh century by a more naturalistic style reflecting significant influence from the Near East and Egypt. Trading stations in the Levant and the Nile Delta, continuing Greek colonization in the east and west, as well as contact with eastern craftsmen, notably on Crete and Cyprus, inspired Greek artists to work in techniques as diverse as gem cutting, ivory carving, jewelry making, and metalworking (1989.281.49-.50). Eastern pictorial motifs were introduced—palmette and lotus compositions, animal hunts, and such composite beasts as griffins (part bird, part lion), sphinxes (part woman, part winged lion), and sirens (part woman, part bird). Greek artists rapidly assimilated foreign styles and motifs into new portrayals of their own myths and customs, thereby forging the foundations of Archaic and Classical Greek art." - Source: Greek Art in the Archaic Period | Thematic Essay | Heilbrunn Timeline of Art History | The Metropolitan Museum of Art
"Design was monumental but not architecturally complex and employed posts and lintels, rather than arches, although Egyptian expertise in stone had a strong influence on later Greek architecture....
The history of art and architecture in Ancient Greece is divided into three basic eras: the Archaic Period (c.600-500 BCE), the Classical Period (c.500-323 BCE) and the Hellenistic Period (c.323-27 BCE). About 600 BCE, inspired by the theory and practice of earlier Egyptian stone masons and builders, the Greeks set about replacing the wooden structures of their public buildings with stone structures - a process known as 'petrification'. Limestone and marble was employed for columns and walls, while terracotta was used for roof tiles and ornaments. Decoration was done in metal, like bronze...
Architectural Methods of Ancient Greece
Like the Egyptians, the Greeks used simple post-and-lintel building techniques." - Source: visual-arts-cork.com
I think the following sums up undeniable 'western' fascination with and romanticization of ancient Egypt:
A SCHOLAR of no less distinction than the late Sir Richard Burton wrote the other day of Egypt as "the inventor of the alphabet, the cradle of letters, the preacher of animism and metempsychosis, and, generally, the source of all human civilization." This is a broad statement; but it is literally true. Hence the irresistible fascination of Egyptology–a fascination which is quite unintelligible to those who are ignorant of the subject. - Amelia Edwards, 1891.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- historians agree that Thales visited Egypt and borrowed and adapted freely. He was to develop and extend what he learned but the key source was Egypt.
"the most ancient archeological reserve in the world" and "that is how the Egyptians, whom we (Greeks) considered as the most ancient of the human race"
Or...
"Thus the mathematical sciences first (proton) originated in Egypt." Egypt is "the cradle of mathematics-that is, the country of origin for Greek mathematics."
Or...
"the mathematical arts had never before been formed, constituted or elaborated anywhere else originating in Egypt only"
Or when a Greek figure, named Eudemus, in reaction to "Prodlus's commentaries on Euclid's Elements", notes:
"we shall say, following the general tradition, that the Egyptians were the first to have invented Geometry, (that) Thales, the first Greek to have been in Egypt, brought this theory thereof to Greece"
quote: "..wherefore in the neighborhood of Egypt the mathematical arts were first established; for there leisure was spared unto the sacerdotal caste." --Aristotle, Metaphysics, Book II -------------------------------------------------------------- 5th data batch- The 'Greek Miracle" questioned by one conservative scholar
Here is one conservative scholar on Greek borrowing from Egypt and the Near east. HE lists the adoption of writing as of crucial development to Greek civ, and points out that the Greeks did not invent their own alphabet but copied/adapted that of the Phonecians, peoples of a Near eastern and North African locale..
Another key influence, the introduction of iron technology was again, not a Greek invention but came from elsewhere.
The conservative also questions the "Greek Miracle.."
Question: What is the data out there as regards African - Italian links?
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
In a thread critiquing Arnaiz-Villena's idea that HLA-DRB1 shows an African origin for Greeks it was asked
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Can you recap some of that nrY data with citations? Just so readers can lock in a clear chain of evidence and put HLA weaknesses in proper perspective. SO far in the chain of GReek - African links we have:
--HLA (with the weaknesses noted) --SKeletal (Macedonian and Aegean ancients per Angel 72) --Benin Sickle Cell (per Ricaut and others) --What else can be added?
I think somewhere in the foregoing pages that answer may be found.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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