I’ve followed the MANY debates on this site arguing over what race/color the Egyptians (ancient or otherwise) are and this question was answered so clearly on my recent visit to Egypt. I went on one of those prefab tours that visits all the grand sites from Cairo to Aswan with about 30 other Americans, Europeans, and Australians. It was an AMAZING experience and once I get my scanner working I will share some of my photos with you all, but that’s not the point of my story. My point is this…

Everywhere I went the native people would refer to me as “same color”, “my color”, or “sister”, never once did they utter those words to any of my fellow travelers (and I was listening for it too). Now often this was said to solicit me into buying something from a stand/store but more often it was to demonstrate a common understanding of racial identity.

One of the most telling illustrations of this racial affinity was when I stepped off of the tour bus in Aswan, and the porter walked up to me, bypassing more than a few others in my group, looked up to the sun and said “the sun is wonderful, yes” while rubbing his skin. At first I had no idea what he was talking about, I thought he was nuts, but then it dawned on me; he was talking about his skin color. He was praising the sun for blessing it with a rich and healthy tone. And then he spoke the most telling two words, “my color” a phrase I heard countless times in every town we visited from all genders, ages, and melanin-kissed hues.

I’m about two shades darker than a brown paper bag and I have kinky-curly hair; In other words, I’m Black.

And so are they

Oh, and just in case you are wondering, there were THREE people on the trip who were of Arabic/Mid Eastern or Mediterranean decent, none of whom were treated with the same affection as I was.

I guess you quoted that to show differences but actually here is something in her writings that gave her away:

quote:

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Also, I attended the American University while I was
there and for anyone who knows this place, it?s a bit
like the Egyptian version of "Clueless". These kids are
filthy rich and their parents are usually diplomats or
ambassadors. Education is undoubtedly reserved for
the wealthy, so the only Black Africans I ran into were
a couple of guys from Nigeria who became some of
my best friends and whose fathers also happened to
work for the United Nations (again, people with lots
of money).

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_----notice most of the attendants of AUC are foreigners !!! Tuition cost more than the average Egyptian can afford!!

quote:

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However, the overall vibe I got was that Black Africans are not held in very high regard. Most Black Africans in Egypt who are not
native to the land are Sudanese. The Nubian population can be found in Aswan which is located in Upper Egypt ("aswad" is the Arabic
word for Black, and the suffix "an" indicates land or territory, so the literal meaning of Aswan is "land of Blacks" or "Black land". It is
very beautiful and the people are lovely there. I felt so at home, not to mention I got my hair done and it looked so bomb!

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____This is peculiar for a anthropology student to get a historical fact like this wrong. Aswan actually comes from the ancient Egyptian word Swene[which means trade] and not from the Arabic word Iswad.

quote:

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Although you still see many beautiful shades of brown in Egypt, for the most part, Egyptians look Arab. <http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/smile.gif>

____She was talking about Cairo primarily where she spent most of her time. Go into the lower-class neighboorhoods in Cairo and its a different story.

[quote]I also noticed that often times
the Egyptians with the lighter skin shades tended to be individuals from the more upper class groups.

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She states a known fact that lighter skinned Egyptians tend to be from the mixed Turkish/Cricassian elite!

quote:

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I remember being in a taxi once and the driver asked me where I was from. I
say "Chicago" and he says "Chicago, America!?", after I replied "yes", he said: "but, but, you are not white, you are black!" Then he
asked me where my parents were from and I said "The US" and he couldn?t believe it. He had to stop his taxi and tell one of his friends
who was standing at a near by corner to come over and see me.

To tell you the truth, sometimes I got a kick out of throwing people off. I told some of them that I was from Haiti, Dominican Republic,
Ghana, Nigeria, and even New Zealand! Others guessed that I was Moroccan, Egyptian, Nigerian, Brazilian, or Ethiopian. It was kind
of fun.

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___Hmmm don't you think its weird they guessed she was from Egypt? Know why would they do that is she looked out of the ordinary?

Compare this to Murad Kalam's experiance:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11­/16/magazine/16LIVES.html?ex=1­069563600... <http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/16/magazine/16LIVES.html?ex=1069563600&en=232add9e386546bf&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE>
Egyptian Like Me
By MURAD KALAM
Last fall, with the war in Iraq looming, I traveled to Egypt. Ever
since I converted to Islam nearly a decade ago, when I was 21, I have
wanted to study in Cairo. One day in March, I went out to the dusty
balcony of my downtown apartment to find, beneath the cinnamon-colored
smog, thousands of Egyptian men in buttoned shirts and village robes,
marching with fists raised and chanting anti-American slogans. Veiled
mothers on the balconies opposite mine watched, clutching their veiled
daughters.
I'd been locked up in my apartment since the war began, an American
lying low, dreading this very riot. Had the protesters known that an
American was watching, I imagined, they would have run up the
stairwell of my tenement -- the pulley elevator worked sporadically --
and hanged me from the balcony.
I could see only a small swath of the protest from this angle. In a
moment of foolish curiosity, I took my camera and hurried down the
stairwell, past the stray, starving cats, to get a better look. I had
lived on this street for six months. Each day, I bought my Arabic
newspapers from Ahmed's closet-size newsstand, my lunch from Felfela,
the shawarma restaurant in my building. This was my neighborhood. Like
my neighbors, I wanted to know what was happening on my street.
Rounding the corner, I saw the men filing down the road. They were
flanked by tanks, water cannons, iron convoy trucks and grimacing
Egyptian soldiers with plastic shields and worn clubs.
The owner of a nearby shoe store recognized me and noticed my camera.
In Arabic, he told me that the protesters might be angered if they saw
me taking pictures. I pocketed my camera and stood beside him,
watching the endless line of shouting men. Suddenly, we heard a howl
down the street, and everyone around us started running away from the
tanks and soldiers. I rushed home and up to my balcony in time to see
a water cannon racing after protesters. Glass shattered in the
distance. Shouts. Young boys hurled stones at soldiers. Sirens.
Ten days later, I cut short my stay and left the country -- not for
fear of riots, but because in Cairo I had been living a lie. A
light-skinned black man, I looked perfectly Egyptian, so Egyptian that
I'd been passing for the past six months.
When I first walked the overcrowded streets of Cairo, the hustlers who
preyed on tourists rarely noticed me; they chased after Swedes and
Italians in the papyrus shops instead. At first I thought the hustlers
assumed a black tourist had less money to be schemed from his pockets.
But twice in my first week, native Egyptians asked me for directions.
For a few months, I enjoyed the privilege of resembling everyone else.
A family of devout Muslims who worked in a tourist shop nearby adopted
me, wanting to shield a new believer from those cynical Muslims who
prey on wide-eyed converts. During Ramadan, I broke my fast with them
daily. We talked of the coming war, of Islam and of America, about
which they held many misconceptions. But we never talked of race. I
often wondered if they knew I was black at all. They arranged lessons
for me with their village sheik. I told myself it was not because I
looked so Egyptian that they embraced me, but only because I was a
Muslim. Hadn't I embraced Islam to find the racial utopia Malcolm X
discovered in Mecca?
One night during Ramadan, a skinny hustler in knockoff American
clothes joined us for dinner. He was one of those 20-something
lotharios who haunt downtown Cairo, seducing tourists. After dinner,
we sat alone in front of the shop.
''Do you know the story of Tupac Shakur?'' he asked me. I nodded and
smiled; I was intrigued that he knew anything about rap and proud that
he did. ''They killed him in the ghetto,'' he continued. ''I love all
the rap, all the niggers.''
My face went hot. I told him he shouldn't use that word.
''Why not?'' he asked. ''All the blacks use it. All the blacks have
sex and sell drugs like Tupac and Jay-Z.''
Not since grade school had such talk so upset me. ''Look at me,'' I
said. ''I'm black. I don't sell drugs.''
''Please, don't be upset,'' the young man said, offering me his hand.
''I'm a nigger. I'm a hustler like Tupac.''
I never told my adopted family of the incident. Their English was only
slightly better than my Arabic. How could I explain it? Yet I couldn't
stop worrying that the young hustler represented the real attitude of
Arab Muslims, who'd been fed a steady diet of black stereotypes in
imported American movies. My adopted family had seen the same films.
Why would they feel differently? Because they prayed five times a day,
because they didn't drink?
I didn't want to admit that they might have treated me differently if
my skin were darker. I wished I didn't look so Egyptian so that I
could know for sure. Looking back, I knew why some part of me was
thrilled by the riot. Seeing it, I knew I would go back home. I
couldn't wait to be myself again.

quote:

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Ausar, the fact remains true that very few Egyptains consider themselves Black Africans and many if not most don't even think of themselves as Africans at all.

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___This has no bearing upon the origins of the ancient Egyptians.

quote:

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Most Sub-Saharan Africans are very distinct and stick out like a sore thumb, even in Upper Egypt.

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Yes, but they would stick out in areas like Somalia also. Somalis could pass for many people living from Luxor to Aswan

quote:

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There is almost "Zero" racial affinity with Blacks among the Native Egyptians and even the Nubians don't consider themselves Negroid Africans, but see themselves as distinct people.

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This is simply not true. Many Egyptians have negriod traits. See the following:

While the Upper Nile Egyptians show phenotypic features that
occur in higher frequencies in the Sudan and southward into
East Africa (namely, facial prognathism, chamaerrhiny, and
paedomorphic cranial architecture with specific modifications
of the nasal aperature), these so-called Negroid features are
not universal in the region of Thebes, Karnak, and Luxor."

(Kennedy, Kenneth A.R., T. Plummer, J. Chinment, "Identification of
the Eminent Dead: Pepi, A Scribe of Egypt," In Katherine J. Reichs
(ed.), _Forensic Osteology_, 1986. )

quote:

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The few Black Americans who happen to look similar to some Egyptians, would be those that have Caucasian Facial Features and Lighter Complexions, but even then their Cultural Manners gives them away, as soon as they open their mouth to speak or by the way they dress and behave.

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Most Egyptians[even the lighter ones] have flatter noses than the average Northern African or Arab. I repeat the shape of your nose is caused by climatic adaptation,and not caucasian mixture.

Indigenous Africans can have naturally many shades or complexions without necessarily being mixed with caucasoids.

Fact is modern Upper Egyptians have black African ancestry.

Here is a link to Kem-Au's thread about his recent visit to Egypt,

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001627.html

And don't mind Abaza and his negativity - he is a white American who resents Black Egyptians, Nubians, Black Americans and Black Africans in general. He likely learned most of his racism in the United States.

quote:

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Sorry, but you're quite wrong on your assessment.

All the Genetic DNA studies done on the Modern Egyptians prove that the highest concentration of Black African genes range from only Zero to about 15% in all Egyptians, including Upper Egyptians.

The Nubians are over 60% Caucasian in terms of Genetics.

In order for you to be considred Mulatto, you have to be at least 35% Black and therefore, none of the Egyptians are such.

The people of Somalia, Eithiopia, and Eritrea are also very different from the Native Egyptains and do stick out for the most part.

Show me any credible Genetic Studies that prove that Egyptains have more than a 15% Black African Admixture. The answer is NONE <http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/wink.gif>

As a matter of fact, all the studies done on African people and those of North Africa, show that the Egyptian and the Libyans are the closest genetically to the Southern Europeans.

---

You can't measure racial admixture with genetic studies. Plus there is no such thing as caucasoid genes or negriod genes.

What you don't understand about the percentages in the Mtdna and Y-chromsome studies are percentages for the frequency of the sampled people. Meaning you will get different results depending which region of Egypt is sampled.

Of course many Egyptians cluster with Libyans because after all the Bani Hilal tribes settled in various parts of Egypt. A large portion of the modern Libyans are of bedouin ancestry.

The mixture in modern Egypt is not permisable to the ethnic origins of the ancient Egyptians. When I say there are areas where Somalis will go unoticed is around the Luxor-Aswan area. Also in many parts of Middle Egypt as well.

quote:

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Ashait So sorry, I know this is a bit off topic but I just wanted to share this story with you folks…
I’ve followed the MANY debates on this site arguing over what race/color the Egyptians (ancient or otherwise) are and this question was answered so clearly on my recent visit to Egypt. I went on one of those prefab tours that visits all the grand sites from Cairo to Aswan with about 30 other Americans, Europeans, and Australians. It was an AMAZING experience and once I get my scanner working I will share some of my photos with you all, but that’s not the point of my story. My point is this…

Everywhere I went the native people would refer to me as “same color”, “my color”, or “sister”, never once did they utter those words to any of my fellow travelers (and I was listening for it too). Now often this was said to solicit me into buying something from a stand/store but more often it was to demonstrate a common understanding of racial identity.

One of the most telling illustrations of this racial affinity was when I stepped off of the tour bus in Aswan, and the porter walked up to me, bypassing more than a few others in my group, looked up to the sun and said “the sun is wonderful, yes” while rubbing his skin. At first I had no idea what he was talking about, I thought he was nuts, but then it dawned on me; he was talking about his skin color. He was praising the sun for blessing it with a rich and healthy tone. And then he spoke the most telling two words, “my color” a phrase I heard countless times in every town we visited from all genders, ages, and melanin-kissed hues.

I’m about two shades darker than a brown paper bag and I have kinky-curly hair; In other words, I’m Black.

And so are they

Oh, and just in case you are wondering, there were THREE people on the trip who were of Arabic/Mid Eastern or Mediterranean decent, none of whom were treated with the same affection as I was.

I just wanted to share that little tid-bit with you as you continue to argue over the Egyptians race.

---

...often enough don't you think?

Thank you for your post. Your own personal experiences provide, as did Kem-Au's, a very valuable insight into the commonly expressed statement made by African-Americans who visit Egypt; **that of not feeling like or being treated like a stranger, but more like being back home.

Can't wait to see your pictures...

**Also, it's not just in Egypt that this happens

Distinguishing Science and Pseudoscience

Rory Coker, Ph.D.

For instance, former psychoanalyst Immanuel Velikovsky (1895-1979) claimed that another planet passing near the earth caused the earth's spin axis to flip upside down http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/pseudo.html

Hatshepsut, the Queen of Sheba, and Immanuel Velikovsky, by David Lorton

Ages in Chaos” series, Immanuel Velikovsky develops in essence two propositions: (a) that the Exodus of the Hebrews is to be dated to the end of the Egyptian Middle Kingdom, and (b) that “the beginning of the . . . Eighteenth Dynasty . . . coincided with the beginning of the line of Kings in Judea” (p. 103); the latter proposition necessitates the lowering of the dates of the Eighteenth Dynasty by about 600 years.

Within this chronological framework, queen Hatshepsut of Egypt and king Solomon of Israel would have been contemporaneous (p. 104), and this leads Velikovsky, in Chapter III of his book, to make a case for identifying the famous expedition to the land of Punt in the reign of Hatshepsut with the renowned visit of the queen of Sheba to the court of king Solomon.

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Ashait....welcome aboard. Your visits with the many Nubians who migrated north on the river after the Pharonic age must have been interesting. As you may know Ashait the egyptians employed Nubians in their military and as policemen on a routine basis.

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And so speaks the intellectually challenged Khawaga...

Thank you for your post. Your own personal experiences provide, as did Kem-Au's, a very valuable insight into the commonly expressed statement made by African-Americans who visit Egypt; **that of not feeling like or being treated like a stranger, but more like being back home.

Can't wait to see your pictures...

**Also, it's not just in Egypt that this happens

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wally:
Welcome aboard Ashait, ( Did you know that your name means "abundant, very plentiful, ample, rich..."in the Mdu Ntr? )

Thank you for your post. Your own personal experiences provide, as did Kem-Au's, a very valuable insight into the commonly expressed statement made by African-Americans who visit Egypt; **that of not feeling like or being treated like a stranger, but more like being back home.

Can't wait to see your pictures...

**Also, it's not just in Egypt that this happens

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Briefly, here's an article on how to distinguish science from pseudo science:

Distinguishing Science and Pseudoscience

Rory Coker, Ph.D.

For instance, former psychoanalyst [b]Immanuel Velikovsky (1895-1979) claimed that another planet passing near the earth caused the earth's spin axis to flip upside down

---

quote:

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Originally posted by BigMix:

Wow, Abaza was quoting a psychoanalist?yikes

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lol.

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
keins, of all the message boards around none deals more with pseudo science and self delusion than this board. We have people here that put out page after page of pure incoherent garble passed off for scholarship. Truth is, this board is all they have, nobody else is listening.

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Surprise surprise, these are the same sentiments expressed amongst many blacks in America as well as blacks in African nations. Do you know anything of the history of light skin blacks vs. darker skin blacks in the US, Caribbean, south America, and all African countries? Lighter faces and darker hands- a lot of my aunts look like that b/c they actually bleach their faces with fade cream to appear lighter! It’s a CHRONIC problem in Africa.

ABAZA writes:
I'm a native born and raised Egyptian and I understand how some Black Africans feel and also how African Americans feel. Egyptians are not Racist, but they also know that they're Not Black Africans, and some don't even think they should be called Africans at all, because of the connotations of the term.

I know some fair skinned black americans that prefer using the term “brown-skin” to refer to themselves because of the negative connotations of the word “Black” and they love asserting the fact that they are “NOT dark-skinned and nappy haired!”

All of the examples you are giving me are just point out how intra-racism still persists.

ABAZA writes:
To tell you the truth, sometimes I got a kick out of throwing people off. I told some of them that I was from Haiti, Dominican Republic,
Ghana, Nigeria, and even New Zealand! Others guessed that I was Moroccan, Egyptian, Nigerian, Brazilian, or Ethiopian

Interesting. I’m sure most of u automatically thought that when I said I was Black and American, you believed that I was “African-American”. My father is actually from the Diaspora- a country that happens to have a sizable Muslim population to boot. And although I am not Muslim, I can tell you that the combination of my American passport with a clearly non-american surname had me doing some serious explaining at customs.

ABAZA writes:
Also men would yell things to me like "Hello sexy
chocolate!", "Hello Janet Jackson!" "Come home with me Beyonce!" (yea, not even joking).

Ok now you are not telling me anything by highlighting this quote! I hear the same cat calls in the clubs in NYC…except its more like “damn baby, you got some sexy chocolate skin” or “girl, you look like you could be janet jackons twin!”

Ausar writes:
She was talking about Cairo primarily where she spent most of her time. Go into the lower-class neighborhoods in Cairo and its a different story.

yes ausar , u are correct, I noticed a marked difference between the more arab looking city dwellers of ciaro and their darker brethren to south (all document in my pictures ;-)

ABAZA writes:
Ausar, the fact remains true that very few Egyptains consider themselves Black Africans and many if not most don't even think of themselves as Africans at all.

Well if that’s the case then I must have had the fortune of bumping into every single person with this “minority” POV in the country.

ABAZA writes:
There is almost "Zero" racial affinity with Blacks among the Native Egyptians

Note my early comment about being a Black American but not “African American” per say…the funny thing ABAZA is that a few of native Egyptians I spoke with could tell that I was from somewhere (I get this a lot- I have a very angular and well defined bone structure in my face, it gets a lot of people guessing). I was clearly foreign and American (dress, mannerisms, and accent) but I certainly didn’t look like Beyonce or Janet Jackson (LMAO!!!) And when I told them that I my father was from indeed from Africa, I was met with immediate positive comments about “also being an African”. No negativity what so ever. If they truly had ill sentiments towards blacks, then they wouldn’t have made that comment.

ABAZA writes:
even the Nubians don't consider themselves Negroid Africans, but see themselves as distinct people.

Many ethnic blacks see themselves as a part of a very distinct group of people (try calling a Jamaican woman, Haitian or and Igbo woman, Youraba and she how she reacts), but because we’ve created up these racial categories by default, any Ethnic Black also gets lump as “negroid”.

I know many non sub-saharan blacks (East African, Horn, N Sudanese). Do they look like your typical black american, no, but guess what box they check on the census form and which side of the school cafeteria they sit on.

Ausar writes:
Indigenous Africans can have naturally many shades or complexions without necessarily being mixed with caucasoids.

Yep this is 110% correct based on what ive seen. I know MANY people from my father’s country that are lighter in complexion (and its NOT b/c of skin bleaching). the truth of the matter is that Black comes in many shades, but regardless of hue, Black is Black.

Rasol writes:
And don't mind Abaza and his negativity - he is a white American who resents Black Egyptians, Nubians, Black Americans and Black Africans in general. He likely learned most of his racism in the United States.

I’ve noticed…I’m sure he has a white hood hanging in his closet.

Horemheb writes:
Your visits with the many Nubians who migrated north on the river after the Pharonic age must have been interesting. As you may know Ashait the egyptians employed Nubians in their military and as policemen on a routine basis

What, you didn’t want to throw in “but they were most often employed as household servants and slaves- just like in the US.” Sorry I know your comment was meant to be civil, but the patronizing tone made my sarcasm come out. I’ll try to behave next post.

Horemheb writes:
We have people here that put out page after page of pure incoherent garble passed off for scholarship. Truth is, this board is all they have, nobody else is listening.

Oh, trust me many others outside of this board are listening…

quote:

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Originally posted by Ashait:

Horemheb writes:
Your visits with the many Nubians who migrated north on the river after the Pharonic age must have been interesting. As you may know Ashait the egyptians employed Nubians in their military and as policemen on a routine basis

[Ahsait replies]:
What, you didn’t want to throw in “but they were most often employed as household servants and slaves- just like in the US.” Sorry I know your comment was meant to be civil, but the patronizing tone made my sarcasm come out. I’ll try to behave next post.

---

quote:

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Note my early comment about being a Black American but not “African American” per say…the funny thing ABAZA is that a few of native Egyptians I spoke with could tell that I was from somewhere (I get this a lot- I have a very angular and well defined bone structure in my face, it gets a lot of people guessing). I was clearly foreign and American (dress, mannerisms, and accent) but I certainly didn’t look like Beyonce or Janet Jackson (LMAO!!!) And when I told them that I my father was from indeed from Africa, I was met with immediate positive comments about “also being an African”. No negativity what so ever. If they truly had ill sentiments towards blacks, then they wouldn’t have made that comment

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Truth. The ill sentiments are expressed by those who have problems with their own identity.

Misery loves company, and there is nothing that engrages embittered folks more than someone actually having a positive experience in Egypt.

If others are happy, it simply makes them more angry. Sad, really.

quote:

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Originally posted by neo*geo:
Let's not generalize Egyptian attitudes by saying they feel one way or another towards non-Egyptian Africans. For the most part, I assume it varies from one person to another. In the US I've encountered fair-skinned Egyptians who identify and associate mostly with black Americans and I've encountered brown skinned Sudanese who don't want to associate with black Americans.

Speaking of one of those pre-fab tours, can anyone tell me how much those tours cost? I'm considering visiting Egypt this summer.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ABAZA:
Your words show that you have fallen into the mental trap of slavery. If you go to India, Asia, South America, and maybe even Europe, you'll meet people who share your skin color, but are of a different racial affinity and race.[b] "I can tell that you're still quite young and naive."

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now, now, now, lets not resort to name calling, but if I’m naive, then you are most certainly narrow minded.

My "mental trap" is the years of subtle and overt racism taught and the expression of that racism in popular culture, government policies, representations of history, etc. I’m trying to break free.

I’m sure this has been discussed here before, but people try to quantify race all the time just to prove that race exists. The US “one drop rule” amuses me to no end. These categories were put in place to separate the human race. Nothing makes racism more powerful than being able to (genetically!) prove that I am different from you.

The point I was driving was that race is a SOCIAL construct. A statement that one of my anthropology professors used back in college was ‘if aliens came to earth, they would be so confused by our racial categories- they don’t make any sense. It would make more sense to group people based on height b/c that is clearly a quantifiable measurement.” Now, that’s the Truth!

See the problem here is that humans created these racial groupings, and now when a group doesn’t fit so easily into a given category, there is a mad scramble to make them fit. The AEs are a perfect example. Abaza, while I vehemently disagree with your POV, you can argue a good case that they are white. Conversely, many on this board make just as good a case for them being black. If they didn’t, there would be nothing to debate!

And yes I am aware that there are Indians that are darker than I but they aren’t socially grouped as Black. Should they be? Maybe -since skin color is usually used as a racial marker. But I can tell you this; any dark-skinned-non-black would most certainly not have been able to sit in the front of the bus in 1950s Mississippi. They would have been right in the back with my black ass.

quote:

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Originally posted by ABAZA:

The second point whether, you like it or not, is that all Egyptians are able to check off the box, "White" or "Caucasian" on all Government Forms in the U.S., I hope you are beginning to get the hint by now!!

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European scholars have spent years trying to discredit African Civilizations. Berating their contributions to modern civilization, even going as far as making outlandish claims that structures unquestionably created by so called “Black Africans” must certainly have been built by Europeans who somehow sailed over to Africa thousands of years ago, put up these structures, then left with out leaving any trace of their involvement. The movement to de-pigment Egyptians to the point where they can “check the white box” is a related to this. Because if you allowed them to check the white box, you would be admitting that Egyptians, and therefore Ancient Egyptians were a black people. Current racist ideology won’t allow that.

Now you also said “all Egyptians are ABLE to check the box”, what I want to know is do all of them do so? And you if answer “yes”, lets not forget that given the history of race relations in the US, many people, if given the opportunity, would gladly travel the road of the less oppressed and say “IM WHITE”. Ever herd of something called ‘passing’ in the African American community?

quote:

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Originally posted by ABAZA:

Your comments are typical of an African American, who is a Tourist and wants to believe the Lies and Fake Psuedo-History that was taught to him in his Black Biased Schools without actually taking the time to understand the people and the culture of Egypt.

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Um…aren’t I “taking the time to understand the people and the culture of Egypt” by respond to this forum when I should be responding to client emails…

There are two sides/viewpoints to every story, I’ve chosen my side and I find it interesting that when a “young and naive woman” takes the time out to indulge her deep interest in an Ancient Civilization and learn more by visiting the country, joining forums, and reading both traditional and non traditional schools of thought, your reaction is to jump on her like a pack of wolves. Savages!

And just for the record, I’m not that young, and sure as hell not naïve.

Now it’s been fun, but I must get back to work, I just heard my managers whip crack.

“Truth is a matter of interpretation.”
- the author of this quote escapes me…

quote:

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Um…aren’t I “taking the time to understand the people and the culture of Egypt” by respond to this forum when I should be responding to client emails…

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Ashait: We hope you will continue to contribute to this forum which needs more level headedness and less empty bluster.

Don't waste too much time on trollers. Their GOAL is to waste your time.

quote:

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Originally posted by neo*geo:

Speaking of one of those pre-fab tours, can anyone tell me how much those tours cost? I'm considering visiting Egypt this summer.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Ashait....being an African American you have zero connection to anyone in Egypt, ancient or otherwise...sorry.

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Thought Writes:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
You mean Nubians and African Americans....It has to be minute.

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Thought Writes:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
You mean Nubians and African Americans....It has to be minute.

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2) I'm a (second generation) African born in America. Although I'm CLEARY cultured as a Black American, my true connections are to my "tribe" (I hate that word) in West Africa. But seeing as how 1/2 of my relatives actually live on the continent, there is statistical possibility that someone related to me may have lived in Egypt- but I make no claims. Shoot, I have relatives in Canada but I don’t claim Canadian citizenship! (although given their universal health care I should really think about it)

3) I wasn’t going to get into to this b/c I have no idea about the origins of this story but...my group's mythology is that they actually migrated from the Nile Valley. Like I said, I don’t know the basis of this belief, so I wasn’t going to speak of it, but your comment pushed me to it. Personally, I don't believe it and I think it’s ‘just a story’, but I don’t exactly take it with a grain of salt either. Why? b/c everyone must have come (migrated)from somewhere and usually a group’s mythology, however fantastical, is rooted in some truth (look at the wonderfully elaborate stories of the Bible). Secondly, there are some first names, surnames, and words that bear a striking similarity to some AE names and words. Of course, this could all be a coincidence so barring any true linguistic analysis I can’t speak to the matter.

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Ashait....being an African American you have zero connection to anyone in Egypt, ancient or otherwise...sorry.

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Originally posted by Ashait:
1) In my original post never said that I claimed to have any connection with AEs- don’t put words in my mouth "professor"

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If you're a modern day African-Anything, it's possible that you and the Ancient Egyptians came from the same stock of people.

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Originally posted by Ashait:

my true connections are to my "tribe" (I hate that word) in West Africa.

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Then don't use the word. Why let someone else define your own people? And if you don't mind my asking, what group of people would that be?

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Originally posted by Ashait:

my group's mythology is that they actually migrated from the Nile Valley.

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Ausar discussed this topic at one point in the past. It seems there are a few groups who claim to have migrated from the East. I personally don't know enough about them though. There was another African poster here (whose name I can't remember) who wrote of his group's connection with the ancient Nile Valley. He was a really smart guy. Perhaps someone else will remember the topic.

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Originally posted by Ashait:
1) In my original post never said that I claimed to have any connection with AEs- don’t put words in my mouth "professor"
2) I'm a (second generation) African born in America. Although I'm CLEARY cultured as a Black American, my true connections are to my "tribe" (I hate that word) in West Africa.

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Ashait,
The intellectually challenged diversions of the "professor" aside, you do indeed have a connection with the Ancient Egyptians, and on a number of levels, here's the more important ones (and I do understand that you are first generation African-American; so depending on your ethnic background(s); your connections may be more extensive):

African Americans: A Pan-African people
The north western slave port at Goree Island, Senegal was only one of several points of departure for Africans being taken to the United States. There were other points as well, stretching as far southward as the present state of Angola. These ports of departure were used for transporting Africans from the African interior - a vast interior. Thus, the ethnic origin of African Americans includes, but is not limited to, the following African peoples:
(Names in bold identify ethnic groups whose origins can be traced back to the Nile Valley civilizations)

Northwest Africa to the Gulf of Guinea;
Mossi, Senufo, Mande, Fulani, Toubou, Fulbe, Sara, Moussei, Massa, Wolof, Akan, Ewe, Mandinga, Songhai, Tuareg, Moor, Hausa, Yoruba, Ibo, Kanuri, Ibibio, Tiv, Ijaw...
Angola South;
Ovimbundu, Kimbundu,Mongo, Luba, Kongo, Mangbetu-Azande, Fang, Punu, Nzeiby, Mbede...

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"Soon...the American (slave) trade developed. A strong, unchecked demand for brute labor in the West Indies and on the continent of America grew until it culminated in the eighteenth century, when Negro slaves were crossing the Atlantic at the rate of fifty to one hundred thousand a year. This called for slave raiding on a scale that drew upon every part of Africa-- upon the west coast, the western and Egyptian Sudan, the valley of the Congo, Abyssinia, the lake regions, the east coast, and Madagascar. Not simply the degraded and weaker types of Negroes were seized, but the strong Bantu, the Mandingo and Songhay, the Nubian and Nile Negroes, the Fula, and even the Asiatic Malay, were represented in the raids...

the reason for the 'west-coast' origin emphasis.

The natural desire to avoid a painful subject has led historians to gloss over the details of the slave trade and leave the impression that it was a local west-coast phenomenon and confined to a few years. It was, on the contrary, continent wide and centuries long and an economic, social, and political catastrophe probably unparalleled in human history..."

-- The Negro by WEB DuBois, University of Pennsylvania Press (c) 2001, pp149;154-5

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The African Americans' identification with all African cultures, including, the ancient Nile valley cultures, is both historically and genetically authentic and valid.
It has nothing at all to do with what one chooses to believe , it isn't based upon emotions but rather on the firm foundations of scientific knowledge...

The kids i teach are Blacks from all over Africa and the Carribbean.....guess what they all hang out together, party together...speak the same slang and dress the same....different from the white kids or the Asian kids.

We can all point to specific diffrences in culture between groups just like a Frenchman can point out differences between the french and the swedish.....yet they are part of a larger group indentified as European.

I have observed the same where I live. Africans and other Blacks of African ancestry do have some culture in common. One can point out specific differences in culture but then the same can be done between a Ghanaian who speaks Ga and a Togolese who speaks Mina.

I often hear Africans of one group speak of the different traits of Africans of another group....still they recognize that they are all African. Africans here mingle with Carribbeans on a level they do not mix with non-blacks....there is a reason for that...there is a broader culture that unites them all.

Trying to tell one group of Africans they havce nothing to do with another group of Africans is a simple old colonialist trick

U can do better than that

I have often heard the Yoruba mention oral traditions of coming from the East....many believe they are speaking of the Nile Valley

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Ausar discussed this topic at one point in the past. It seems there are a few groups who claim to have migrated from the East. I personally don't know enough about them though. There was another African poster here (whose name I can't remember) who wrote of his group's connection with the ancient Nile Valley. He was a really smart guy. Perhaps someone else will remember the topic.

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Ade wrote:

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The Yoruba phrase "apa amu sua", which means "an unthrifty person" is derived from three AE words:

Apa - "he who belongs to the house i.e. servant"

Amu - one of the Asiatic tribes engaged in domestic service in Ancient Egypt

Sua (Sua-nit), a nome in AE.

The phrase is a comtemptuous term which preserves the idea of the wastefulness of foreign domestic servants in AE who hardly knew the value of crockery and other articles they sometimes smashed to pieces.

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Mossi, Senufo, Mande, Fulani, Toubou, Fulbe, Sara, Moussei, Massa, Wolof, Akan, Ewe, Mandinga, Songhai, Tuareg, Moor, Hausa, Yoruba, Ibo, Kanuri, Ibibio, Tiv, Ijaw...
Angola South;
Ovimbundu, Kimbundu,Mongo, Luba, Kongo, Mangbetu-Azande, Fang, Punu, Nzeiby, Mbede...

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Originally posted by Ashait:
So sorry, I know this is a bit off topic but I just wanted to share this story with you folks…

I’ve followed the MANY debates on this site arguing over what race/color the Egyptians (ancient or otherwise) are and this question was answered so clearly on my recent visit to Egypt. I went on one of those prefab tours that visits all the grand sites from Cairo to Aswan with about 30 other Americans, Europeans, and Australians. It was an AMAZING experience and once I get my scanner working I will share some of my photos with you all, but that’s not the point of my story. My point is this…

Everywhere I went the native people would refer to me as “same color”, “my color”, or “sister”, never once did they utter those words to any of my fellow travelers (and I was listening for it too). Now often this was said to solicit me into buying something from a stand/store but more often it was to demonstrate a common understanding of racial identity.

One of the most telling illustrations of this racial affinity was when I stepped off of the tour bus in Aswan, and the porter walked up to me, bypassing more than a few others in my group, looked up to the sun and said “the sun is wonderful, yes” while rubbing his skin. At first I had no idea what he was talking about, I thought he was nuts, but then it dawned on me; he was talking about his skin color. He was praising the sun for blessing it with a rich and healthy tone. And then he spoke the most telling two words, “my color” a phrase I heard countless times in every town we visited from all genders, ages, and melanin-kissed hues.

I’m about two shades darker than a brown paper bag and I have kinky-curly hair; In other words, I’m Black.

And so are they

Oh, and just in case you are wondering, there were THREE people on the trip who were of Arabic/Mid Eastern or Mediterranean decent, none of whom were treated with the same affection as I was.

I just wanted to share that little tid-bit with you as you continue to argue over the Egyptians race.

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I am glad u enjoyed it. Dont mind ABAZA or Hornyheb(especially this him since he is an old red neck that watched to many disny movies). Being egyptian myself, all that u speak of is true. Egypt is really diverse, that many look east African, dominican, arab, etc... I will assure that every city in egypt has different admixtures of the foriegn populations that came simular to what happ in Brazil that gave it its great diversity today. U should nt really mind ABAZA he is just one of those ppl who wants to be associated to being white, than have anything to do with Africa. PPl like Abaza are racist, feel superior to ppl of differant skin color. Abaza just cant stand the fact that he is not decandant of the AE so he is angered by the facts of AE being an African civilization. In egypt the elite class(turkish, european decant) mostly found in the delta control the media, politics, everythin basically so they have the power on how to display Egypt. Abaza feels he is superior to any person in Africa so for him he would not be an African. I know alot of somalian, sudanese who lived Egypt got accostomed to the culture and consider themselves egyptian, and if they get a chance would go and make a visit. Egyptians today because of the diversity can not really be given a label. Its modern society is somewhat similar to brazil the only differcance instead of indian americans being the true inhabitants of the region black africans(meaning brown, light brown, black, dark brown, dark black, etc...) were the ppl of AEgypt, but because of all the invasion and immigration egypt has had a popultion change with a diverse field of ppl which has given it its modern look today.

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Originally posted by rasol:
Ade wrote:

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Originally posted by Obenga:

I have observed the same where I live. Africans and other Blacks of African ancestry do have some culture in common. One can point out specific differences in culture but then the same can be done between a Ghanaian who speaks Ga and a Togolese who speaks Mina.

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I never did learn the language fluently but my grandmother taught me to sing "Three Blind Mice" in Ga when I was little LOL!

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Originally posted by Obenga:

I have often heard the Yoruba mention oral traditions of coming from the East....many believe they are speaking of the Nile Valley

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Know most people don't really study or understand African pre-history meaning the one fertile Sahara. The Saharan rock-art shows cultural connections between many modern Sahelian people like the Fulani. Infact, the cattle custom seen in Mali resembles the modern customs and this was pointed out by modern Fulani scholar named Amadoua Hamparte Ba.

Western Africa was mostly a forest uninhabited in large numbers untill the inital drying of the Sahara that brought people from the Central/Southern/Eastern Sahara into both the Nile Valley and into the Western Africa territory. Some of these Saharan people went into the Nile Valley and were absorbed by the settled agritculturalists.

This most likely explains why there is cultural similarities between many Western African groups and with the ancient Egyptians.

Know going back to African Americans. Many people don't know but Portugeese people did not just take slaves from areas like Nigeria,Benin,or the Western Coast of Africa. Many also came from actually Southern Morocco and Mauritania. Portugeese tricked many of these groups into slavery. The Tuareg are also amongst the ancestors of many African Americans. Geneticist have found African Americans with Tuareg ancestry.

The unfortunate factor is that Tuaregs were the main ones transporting slaves.

I really don't see no harm with African Americans adopting the cultural outlook of the ancient Egyptians or feelin akin to the ancient Egyptians. However, I also wish African Americans would also look in other areas of Africa. Ancient Egypt is pretty much a dead society with some survivals amongst the rural populations of Egypt. Western/Africa/the Carribean has living African cultures that need documentation. You don't know how many archaeological sites in Western Africa are sometimes neglected because of the main emphasis on Egypt.

Here is a wonderful book that documents Africanism in African American culture:

Africanisms in American Culture (Blacks in the Diaspora)
by Joseph E. Holloway (Edito

ISBN: 0253206863

I hope people don't take this the wrong way but I often notice that since many Americans don't really have a fundamental culture they wallow in the whole idea of race and racial classification. Most Egyptians in Egypt don't care about these issues because no matter their color they are part of a cultural base.The only ones that really do are the expatriots in America or the ones that live closely to Europeans. Not saying that colorism/racism does not exist because these issues exist on a large scale across the globe.

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
When someone starts talking about American blacks 'in the disporia' all the red flags go up. This is a sure sign you are dealing with a political radical who should simply be ignored. More often than not they'll be wrong about almost everything.

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Hey! my "red flag" coordinates with your red neck

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ROTFL!

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Originally posted by rasol:
Northwest Africa to the Gulf of Guinea;
You should definitely highlight the Tuareg as well and here's why....). The authors (p. 173) show that that is a surprizing degree of genetic similarity between the Tuareg and the Beja, and hypothesize a common origin - C. Sforza "The History and Geography of Human Genes"

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That was my oversight. I also, based upon convincing evidence presented on this very forum, highlight the Akan of Ghana...

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African Americans: A Pan-African people
The north western slave port at Goree Island, Senegal was only one of several points of departure for Africans being taken to the United States. There were other points as well, stretching as far southward as the present state of Angola. These ports of departure were used for transporting Africans from the African interior - a vast interior. Thus, the ethnic origin of African Americans includes, but is not limited to, the following African peoples:

(Names in bold identify ethnic groups whose origins can be traced, with a high degree of certainty, back to the Nile Valley civilizations)

Northwest Africa to the Gulf of Guinea;
Mossi, Senufo, Mande, Fulani, Toubou, Fulbe, Sara, Moussei, Massa, Wolof, Akan, Ewe, Mandinga, Songhai, Tuareg, Moor, Hausa, Yoruba, Ibo, Kanuri, Ibibio, Tiv, Ijaw...
Angola South;
Ovimbundu, Kimbundu,Mongo, Luba, Kongo, Mangbetu-Azande, Fang, Punu, Nzeiby, Mbede...

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Your comments on the Taureg's relationship to the Beja is helpfull because The closest ethnic relative to the Ancient Egyptians, in terms of phenotype, culture, and language are the Beja people.