CHANNEL 5, FRIDAY MAY 2ND AT 9PM DISCOVERY NETWORK USA, FEB 17 2003
The programme explores the enigmatic central Saharan society which once spanned the entire north African continent. We unravel their tale through the story of the discovery of the black mummy, Uan Muhuggiag. It soon becomes obvious that these people were responsible for an extraordinary array of innovations which later became famous under the Egyptians. Their presence re-writes the history of Egypt and of the entire continent of Africa.
The background: the lost society of the central Sahara and the rise of ancient Egypt The origins of ancient Egypt are archaeology’s greatest unsolved mystery. What prompted this remarkable culture to develop such distinctive rituals as mummification? Where did they get their ideas? As far as we know, Egypt was only preceded by one great civilisation: Mesopotamia. Although Mesopotamia is a far older culture – there is no evidence to suggest that these people had developed any similar funerary practises. But if Egyptian innovations did not come from earlier known civilisations – where did they come from?
The answer has come from an unlikely quarter – the barren Sahara desert. In the last few decades evidence has been mounting that the Egyptian civilisation was not the first advanced society in Africa. At the same time as Mesopotamia rose in the near east, another culture thrived in Africa. Although few people have heard of it – this central Saharan culture is providing evidence for the invention of ritual activity which had previously been attributed to the Egyptians.
Mattandoush rock art
The first clue for archaeologists was the abundant rock art found all over the central Sahara from Libya to Egypt to Mali. The rock art depicts animals like crocodiles and rhinos – which do not live in deserts. It also shows scenes of hunting and rituals involving men wearing animal masks. All of this art was a firm clue that this area was once a hive of activity. It spurred archaeologists to dig and over the past fifty years they’ve uncovered an entire unknown society.
The society was nomadic – groups of animal herders wandered all over the region and eventually spread their uniform culture throughout the continent of north Africa. They lived in huts and had time to make art and invent rituals. By the time the culture reached its pinnacle around 6ooo years ago these people had invented rituals which indicate a fairly complex world view. They were communicating with the heavens and using funerary rituals like mummification to treat their dead.
Saharan Oasis Lake Gabarone
But all of this evidence indicated an Eden-like place – one with trees, grasses and abundant running waters. And yet nothing could be further from this picture than the Sahara today. Although archaeologists had already assembled the clues, the science of climatology solidly confirmed what all had suspected: this area was once a lush savannah landscape. Changes in the tilt of the earth’s axis had caused drought in the Sahara and brought this thriving society to an end. But with the demise of the central Saharan culture, people wandered all over northern Africa in search of greener pastures. The Nile valley was an obvious destination. Around 6000 years ago central Saharan ideas arrived in the Nile valley – adding mummification and other rituals to the potent mix which was to become the Egyptian civilisation.
The mummy and archaeology in Libya: An Italian team of archaeologists first explored the Libyan Sahara almost fifty years ago. In 1958 they struck gold. Professor Fabrizio Mori discovered the black mummy at the Uan Muhuggiag rockshelter. The mummy of a young boy, Uan Muhuggiag was destined for controversy. He was older than any comparable Egyptian mummy and his mere existence challenged the very idea that Egyptians were the first in the region to mummify their dead. Although the Italian team from the university of Rome “La Sapienza”, has since discovered other mummified tissue, they have not yet discovered another complete mummy in the region. But Uan Muhuggiag was no one off. The sophistication of his mummification suggested he was the result of a long tradition of mummification. Investigations in the area continue under the direction of Dr Savino di Lernia and Professor Mario Liverani.
Climatology: Professor Mauro Cremaschi of CIRSA (University of Milan and University of Rome “La Sapienza”) heads the Italian Climatology team which focuses on the Acacus area of Libya. Dr Kevin White (Reading University) heads an English team focussing on the nearby Fezzan region. Both teams are using the latest satellite technology to clarify our picture of climate in the central Sahara over the past several hundred thousand years.
Another lost Libyan civilisation: The Fezzan project, headed by Professor David Mattingly (University of Leicester) focuses on the Garamantes civilisation which thrived from 1500bc-500ad. The Garamantes were known by the Romans as barbarians but evidence from the Sahara shows a large, sophisticated civilisation. Remains show substantial architecture and a complex society replete with numerous luxuries. Almost 100,000 tombs litter the Fezzan escarpment – to date these bodies are the most concrete testimony to this little-known people. http://www.fulcrumtv.com/blackmummy.htm
posted
This discovery shows that the people of libye had an older civilisation than the egyptian civilisation concerning the mummifications's traditions.
Another topic shows as that the north-west african people also had an older influence on the egyptian belief
[This message has been edited by Mazigh (edited 25 August 2005).]
Cattle as Capital: Early Complex Societies of the Sahara and Sahel By the third millennium B.C.E, a broad swath of cultures economically dominated by pastoralism stretched across the African Sahel, from modern Sudan to Mauritania. At that time the Sahara was much moister than it is today, being carpeted with grasslands and crisscrossed by seasonally filled waterways and ponds. Its vast expanse was also populated with linguistically and culturally diverse groups that had both pastoral and hunter-gatherer ways of life. The small stone and earthen tumuli and monuments left in the wake of the early pastoral cultures attest to a degree of social ranking in the former probably based around the accumulation of livestock and widely traded polished stone objects (beads, arm rings, axes, etc.). The origins of these mobile complex societies extend almost to the beginnings of cattle-keeping in Africa, whose origins may be as early as 7000 B.C.E in the northeastern corner of the continent.
From a relatively early date, they were constructing small stone monuments of a communal nature, including a circle of standing stones (built between 5000 and 4000 B.C.E, near Nabta Playa, Egypt), and small tumuli for cattle "sacrifices" or lineage bulls (c. 5000 B.C.E, Niger and Chad). n, however, monuments of a more individualistic nature would appear across the central Sahara. Stone tumuli, alignments, and burial complexes, singling out the elites of these societies for special treatment, are well documented from 4000 B.C.E until the virtual abandonment of the gradually desiccating region during the first millennium B.C.E . In two places, environmental and external social factors crystallized these mobile societies into more sedentary and complex polities, such as those known from Kerma and Dhar Tichitt.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 25 August 2005).]
posted
well, we had the 'Great black God' last year and the black Greeks and recently we heard that jesus was black....heck, why not the black mummy....go for it. We can make him the secret ancestor of the North American Indians. it is rummored that he was a direct ancestor of both elvis and Thomas jefferson.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 25 August 2005).]
it seems that you have your own buzzies rather than the point.
those were the points "The mummy and archaeology in Libya:" [...] "e was older than any comparable Egyptian mummy and his mere existence challenged the very idea that Egyptians were the first in the region to mummify their dead.".
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: well, we had the 'Great black God' last year and the black Greeks and recently we heard that jesus was black....heck, why not the black mummy....go for it. We can make him the secret ancestor of the North American Indians. it is rummored that he was a direct ancestor of both elvis and Thomas jefferson.
i also find it nonsense to say that many ancient peoples and non-existant figures were black, but i have no objection against these descreption. the discovery was by "non-blacks" and some libyans experts (if i remember me well). as well it is a proved fact that the early people of the modern sahara of north africa were black, before the white people would appears.
it is worthy to make a distinction between the silly ideology and the historical facts.
[This message has been edited by Mazigh (edited 25 August 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: it seems that you have your own buzzies rather than the point.
those were the points [b]"The mummy and archaeology in Libya:" [...] "e was older than any comparable Egyptian mummy and his mere existence challenged the very idea that Egyptians were the first in the region to mummify their dead.". [/B]
None of these early Libyans in the Sahara being referred to have anything to do with Berbers. In fact please explain why mummification was *NOT* practiced widespread in North Africa as it did in Egypt. Saharans spread south and east as well as west during the dessication of the Sahara and brought these and other traditions with them, it wasn't a Libyan or 'Berber' thing.
quote:Originally posted by Topdog: Saharans spread south and east as well as west during the dessication of the Sahara and brought these and other traditions with them, it wasn't a Libyan or 'Berber' thing.
We have a winner!
The Neolithic Saharans - which is what the documentary is about - spanned North Africa and included virtually all of the major language groups - Nilo Saharans [Teda], Chadic, Niger-Congo [Fulani], "Ancient Egyptian", "Nubian", as well as Berber.
Berber and Semitic are among the youngest of the languages of North Africa.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: It seems you missed the point of the entire documentary.
Do you even know what the saharo-sudanic Neolithic is?
in fact, i have no much knowledge about the archeologic periodes. thus, it would be friendly to learn some of which you know, but without irrelevant remarks, please.
one fact, i am not used to use the non-arabic terms, but i am able to translate "saharo" wich means "desert(o)", and "sudanic" wich means "black" and sometime is used as "salve" (bilaad assudaan means sometime "the country of the slaves". neolitic is formed by two word "neo" wich means "new" and "litic" wich i believe to mean "hajari" in arabic, letterly transtlated as "stones".
it would be a quetion of seconds to explore the exact correct use of that term by using google. but it has less sense to do that as long as this is not the point.
[This message has been edited by Mazigh (edited 25 August 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Topdog: None of these early Libyans in the Sahara being referred to have anything to do with Berbers. In fact please explain why mummification was *NOT* practiced widespread in North Africa as it did in Egypt. Saharans spread south and east as well as west during the dessication of the Sahara and brought these and other traditions with them, it wasn't a Libyan or 'Berber' thing.
now, you deny their relationship with the berbers, because that is the logical expected connection. this is the reason why i didn't said they are berbers. i just said they are libyans like it was written. and according to my knowledge there is no known people that inhabited libye before the berbers...., but for your language, the article referred to the lost civilisation as "garamants" civilisation. the garamants were a berber/libyan tribe.
i give up i have no enough language to explain your remark, as well as i don't know of your remark is correct. the berbers of the canary islands used a sort mummification.
on the other hand, you can give the basis of your conclusion/claims.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: We have a winner!
The Neolithic Saharans - which is what the documentary is about - spanned North Africa and included virtually all of the major language groups - Nilo Saharans [Teda], Chadic, Niger-Congo [Fulani], "Ancient Egyptian", "Nubian", as well as Berber.
Berber and Semitic are among the youngest of the languages of North Africa.
jaja, you may chose your winners and your points. but the point of the original article is the mummy and how it would influence the scentific view of the egyptian civilisation. the mummy is clearly found in libya. Posts: 883 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: well, we had the 'Great black God' last year and the black Greeks and recently we heard that jesus was black....heck, why not the black mummy....go for it. We can make him the secret ancestor of the North American Indians. it is rummored that he was a direct ancestor of both elvis and Thomas jefferson.
Central Sahara.
Black features.
Mummification process.
How interesting. From whence does the winds of civilization blow?
quote:Originally posted by osirion: Central Sahara. Black features. Mummification process. How interesting. From whence does the winds of civilization blow?
posted
here follows a short view on the berber existance in north africa, between the archeologic evidence an the written source
Prehistoric desert town found in Western Sahara The remains of a prehistoric town believed to date back 15,000 years and belong to an ancient Berber civilisation have been discovered in Western Sahara, Moroccan state media said.
A team of Moroccan scientists stumbled across the sand-covered ruins of the town Arghilas deep in the desert of the Morocco-administered territory.
The remains of a place of worship, houses and a necropolis, as well as columns and rock engravings depicting animals, were found at the site near the town of Aousserd in north-eastern Western Sahara.
The isolated area is known to be rich in prehistoric rock engravings but experts said the discovery could be significant if proven that the ruins were of Berber origin as this civilisation is believed to date back only some 9,000 years.
"It appears that scientists have come up with the 15,000-years estimate judging by the style of the engravings and the theme of the drawings," Mustapha Ouachi, a Rabat-based Berber historian, told Reuters.
Berbers are the original inhabitants of North Africa before Arabs came to spread Islam in the seventh century.
posted
III- some geografical- and historical data, supported by languistic data:
the topography of the regions of the big desert [the sahara of north africa] as well as the stones's sedimentations wich date from the lithic and neolithic times prove that the konw sahara wasn't a sahara/desert in the antiquity. those regions had a moist climat, and was carped by grasses, and forests, forthermore, there were many sorts of the trees like as: "oaks", "nut's trees", "olive's trees"...and the period of the drawings and the rock arts (about 3000) wich are conserved on the walls, cliffs, show us there were several human groups, and that two human races followed together in living in the desert. the first group was black, and he disappeared in the end of the seventh century b.c., and the second one was white, which appeared to have lived in that region from the beginnig of the sixth millennium b.c., this last one was mentioned by tattooes on his body in the drawings that were mad in his time (camps, I, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44; h. j. hugot, I,II), this geografical and historical data are supported by berber languistic data wich tell that the big sahara was not a desert from the beginning, [...]
this is translated from the book of mohamed chafiq "hafriyyat fi allogha [archrology in the language]
[This message has been edited by Mazigh (edited 25 August 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: in fact, i have no much knowledge about the archeologic periodes. thus, it would be friendly to learn some of which you know, but without irrelevant remarks, please.
Without understanding anything about North African archeology, you cannot understand what is an is not relevant.
Next question: Did you actually see the "Black Mummy" documentary? Yes or no?
posted
The name of the Libyans is registred in the oldest documents of - Egyptian historie , towards 3.000 before J.C, perhaps even before this date and the Libyans, today Imazighen, have an old history of more than five thousand years. Thnou, Lybian, Imazighen
The country of the Libyans was called Tehenou among Egyptians. This designation is a little arbitrary, we only know about the T-h-n-w consonants; because the Egyptians did not wrote the vowels (like Touareg today). Only one "Libyan" could be named Teheni and several other Teheniou (in Egyptian: T-h-n-y-w).
We employ the name Libyans to indicate all the Berber or Imazighen of -antiquity which were near -Egypte. There was also a particular tribe: The Libou whose -appellation had been generalized by the Greeks of Cyrnaque so that we in general speak today about the Libyans without reference to tribe.
It would be more correct calling the Berber ones by their name, namely Amazigh in the singular and Imazighen in the plural, witch mean the "free people" or the "noble ones", because the name of Barbari relates in the -Antiquity with the people which spoke neither Greek, nor Latin. Also people which had a high civilization, like the Egyptians, Babyloniens or Perses were of Barbari to the eyes of the Romans.
Here is four documents:
The pallet of king Scorpion
The first document mentioning Libya is a pallet fragment of schist from king "Scorpion", one of the predecessors of king Mens who reigned little before 3.000 before J.C.
King Scorpion - club found in Hieraconpolis The surface is divided into four horizontal bands whose first line is filled with oxen, the second with a row donkeys and the third with sheep. The fourth band is filled with a row of trees and a hieroglyphic group composed of the sign meaning "foreign ground" in which one planted a curved stick, arms of the Libyans. The whole is read Tehenou "ground of the Libyans". Its the oldest known document to date in Egyptian writing. The name of the king that one can translate NR, "fish" and MR., "chisel" is written in a serekh, ancestor of the cartouche.
The whole represents, after Georg MOLLER, the spoils brought back by king "Scorpion" from a victorious forwarding against the country of Tehenou where there were oxen, donkeys, sheep and trees.
The ivory cylinder of -Hiraconpolis
Prehistoric sculpture of -HieraconpolisThe small ivory cylinder bears the name of king Narmer, known by his famous schist pallet preserved at the Museum of Cairo. Our document coming from -Hiraconpolis, l-ancian Nekhen, 85 km in the south of Louxor, comprise three lines of bearded prisoners that the king terrace. The group in the middle, a curious mixture of symbolic writing system and hieroglyphic is perfectly readable: "the god Horus is alive. King Narmer, protected by the goddess "Vulture" from -Elkab city conquered the country of Tehenou and kills the prisoners "
The pallet of king Narmer
This votive pallet in black schist is preserved at the Museum of Cairo, finely worked, it has a 64 cm height. Two lines horizontrales divide the surface of the back into three unequal parts.
pallets of king NarmerAll in top we see two heads of the goddess Hathor with horns and ears of cow, goddess of the sky. In the middle, a diagrammatic drawing of the royal palate in which is writen the name of the king. A "silure" is read nar and a "chisel" means sea, which gives Narmer.
The part in the middle shows the king, standing, carrying the crown of High-Egypt, embanking an enemy with a bludgeon, it is a perforated stone ball through which one passed a stick. The short clothing, maintained by only one strap and a belt with frangues of which an animal tail hangs, leaves most of its body naked. Behind him, a servant carries his sandals.
In front of the king, the Horus god in the form of a falcon brings to him prisoners of the country of papyrus: the Delta. All in bottom we see two enemies escaping, designated by two hiroglyphes difficult to interpret.
pallets of king NarmerThe recto of the pallet is divided into four bands. One sees all in top the heads of the Hathor goddess with the palate of the king. Below, the king who carries the red crown of Low Egypt, between two servants, preceded by four men carrying of symbols posed on long stems, in front of 10 enemies whose cutted head is placed between their legs.
In the medium, two panthers whose exaggeratedly long necks intertwines to form in the middle a round hollow where the make-up was ground. All in bottom, a bull, probably the king, destroyed an enemy fortress with blows of horns. This pallet enables us to specify l-importance of the king. Work is of an extreme smoothness, astonishing for the time. The long interlaced necks is of mesopotamic origin.
Libyans of the country of Tehenou
Libyan of Tehenou temple of king SahourThe following document is much more recent. It dates from the reign of king Sahour, second king of the fifth dynasty (2442-2430 before J.C). A copy of the relief is in the funerary temple d-un another king, Phiops II, from the sixth dynasty (2221-2157 before J-C).
It is a relief carried out carefully in the best tradition of Egyptian art. It includes eight superimposed bands. In top, the Seshat goddess, mistress of writing, note the number of the prisoners and the cattle which the king had brought back of the country of Tehenou.
The remainders of scenery from the first band had to show the king embanking the Libyan head, traditional scene. Its close relations spoke to Sahour (nonvisible) and implre its leniency. The following bands show us the captured cattle: more than 123 400 oxen, 223 400 asses, 32 413 caprine and 243 688 sheep.
Other Libyan tribes
At side of the Libyans of Tehenou whom we know through Egyptian representations, there was also Temehou, with which they should not be confused. The first representation that we had of this tribe comes from the tomb of king Sethos Ier in the Valley of the Kings (1303-1290 before J-C.) they were fair-haired, had the blue eyes and the clear skin, they carried a long coat, open on the front, and with ostrich feathers in the hair.
Thereafter the names of the tribes multiply. In the Ramesside time we meet Libou or Libyans, Meshwesh or M, Qeheq mentioned under Ramses II and Ramses III as well as Isebeten. This last name corresponds to that of Isebeten, old tribe from Hoggar which was unaware of the metals use and still lived in stone age when the current ancestors of Touareg penetrated in the country. A fraction of Isebeten joined to Dag Ghali, a Targui tribe which still have hunting rights in the Hoggar. Old Isebeten were also hunters.
Then there were Baqal, Qeyqesh, Mehesoun, perhaps Massules of the Romans, and Paat of the copt texts. Hrodote (towards 450 before J-C.) gives us a whole list of Libyan tribes living west -Egypte.
Rise of Lybian in ancient -Egypte
The Libyans enter Egypte historie like enemies, like invaders. This is perhaps not exact with regard to the province of Fayoum which seems always Libyan before being integrated into the kingdom of -Egypte under Ssostris II (towards 1897-1878 before J.C).
To strike the country of Tehenou was an act whose several kings glorified themselves. Indeed, the Libyans of the small oases could not measure themselves with the Egyptians, by far higher in number. If Sahour brings back a rich booty from the country of Tehenou, it s- certainly from Fayoum, oasis in which was a lake, today Birkat Qroun, which still had the name: shet Temeh "lake of Libyans" under the 12th dynasty(HOLSCHER 1937: p. 49).
If the Libyans were often overcome during their first contacts with the Egyptians, their courage had to impress the latter, because one finds them starting from the New Empire like soldiers in the Egyptian army and even as officers. Mes en M "master of the Meshwesh" was the title for high row officer. Thereafter the Libyans reach even the kingdom. Two of the 30 dynasties were of Libyan origin, the 22e and 23e (946-720 before J-C.) and their kings was called Sheshenq, Osorkon and Takeloth (comp. the name of T-K-L-HT in a numidic inscription).
With considering the examined documents, we note that Imazighen or Berber historie begins even with the threshold of Egyptian -historie, towards 3 000 before J.C, and not tardily with the Greeks or the Romans and even less with the Arabs.
In these documents, it s always about the country of Tehenou, Libya in the direction of the Greek historians, witch means the countries located west of -Egypte. The inhabitants was the Teheniou in Egyptian or hatiou- N Tehenou, "princes of Libye". This last denomination points out the proper name of the nation, Imazighen which also means the free men or the noble ones. http://emazighen.com/article.php3?id_article=69
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: [QUOTE]Originally posted by osirion: [b] Central Sahara. Black features. Mummification process. How interesting. From whence does the winds of civilization blow?
can you explain your point, please ?
[/B][/QUOTE]
You have to understand my education. I was brought up in England and in those days we were taught that Caucasian came down from IndoEurope and enslaved Blacks in Egypt and built the empire we see evidence of. However, as we continue to unravel the mystery of the civilization of Egypt, we continue to see that the culture that we call Egyptian is more and more African in its origination. Not only is it African but it roots continue to march downward into Sub-Saharan Africa.
Quite interesting.
If you didn't quite get it - Central Saharan society is not your coastal Berber type.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: You have to understand my education. I was brought up in England and in those days we were taught that Caucasian came down from IndoEurope and enslaved Blacks in Egypt and built the empire we see evidence of. However, as we continue to unravel the mystery of the civilization of Egypt, we continue to see that the culture that we call Egyptian is more and more African in its origination. Not only is it African but it roots continue to march downward into Sub-Saharan Africa.
Quite interesting.
If you didn't quite get it - Central Saharan society is not your coastal Berber type.
it maybe that your education is a special case. i don't know how that is given and with wich bases. but i still find it nonsense. and at the same time i doubt your seriousity.
with saying that the central sahara isn't "my coastal type" you say just a nonuseful remark. at first it is not of me, as i wonder how the subject is deformed. the mummy is clearly found in libye. wether the central sahara was inhabited by the berbers or not, that doesn't matter, because the mummy is found in libye. thus, why do you attempt to deforme this fact.
i know the central sahra was inhabited by many peoples, like as the berbers and the egyptians... , i even believe that the egyptian civilisation has a sharan roots. the story of that civilisation, can be told as summarization on this manner: the sharan peoples were close related peoples who lived in the modern area of the central sahara before its dryness. but with the beginning of its dryness, those peoples had to immigrate to another regions wehere they could find the fertile landscapes, and grasses. the egyptians immigrated to the nile valley where they found the water, and became satisfied with that water, whereas the berbers immigrated to Libya/tamazgha (from morocco to the western boards of the ancient egypt), but there was no nile valley. and no enough water, besides, some regions were uninhabitable because of the dangerous animals. and this didn't allow the berbers to establish their own civilisation in early times..., the immigration of those peoples wasn't done in one time, but in several phases, and by many peoples, some archeologians believer that the withe egyptians were of libyan/berber race, because they were white, contrary to the egyptians.
but at last, "the libyan mummy" doesn't mean "the central sahran mummy".
[This message has been edited by Mazigh (edited 26 August 2005).]
posted
can anyone compare the used technic in this libyan mummy and that technic wich is used in the canarian mummy
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I believe the Guanche mummies were dried out in the sun and then stuffed with plants. Of course the ancient Egyptians were not the only people who praticed mummification,for you can find it amongst the Guanche,Polynesians,and even ancient Britians around Shetland.
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: I believe the Guanche mummies were dried out in the sun and then stuffed with plants. Of course the ancient Egyptians were not the only people who praticed mummification,for you can find it amongst the Guanche,Polynesians,and even ancient Britians around Shetland.
is that manner correct to get any mummification? it is undoutly that the ancient egyptians weren't the only people who practiced the mummification. even, it appears that they learned it from the libyans.
by the way, there is a remarkable ressemblence between the mummification of the guanches, and that of the ancient egyptians.
[This message has been edited by Mazigh (edited 27 August 2005).]
The early berbers [the author doesn't use the term "berber" in his arabic articles, but amazigh, nevertheless i will translate it as berber, because the readers are more familiar with this term] lived in the central sahara from the pre-historic times
rabat-moustapha ouachi
in the cader of the scentific activities and the studies series wich are organised by "the instute of the african studies", there was given a lecture by the researcher malika hachid who is specialised in the pre-istory of the central sahara, especially, in the rock arts and the drawings on the stones, and generally she is a place-related researsher and a lover of the desert,she walked on foot and by camels for more than twenty years, she wrote many columns and gave many lectures in the whole world with its focus on the works wich are related to the heritage of the rock arts whereabout she published many books , like as: the written room in the year 1992, tasili 'n ajar in the year 1998 and at last, the early berbers between the Mediterranean sea and the tasili and the nile" wich is published in 2001.
that lecture of the researsher was meant to give a headlines of the contents of this last book which she signed in 2001-05-18 in the publisher "kalila wa dimna". in that lecture explored the researcher the geographical origin of the early berbers in north africa, and that was based on occurence of several source and witnesses of the found human remains and other material found remains, like as:
the fictile mineral, the rock arts and the pharaonic statues. this besides the other historical documents like as the egyptian- ,the greek and the reman sources. and after verifying those source and it comparing with each others, she gave a scientific purpose concerning the originality of the berbers in that wide region which lays between the atlantic ocean and the nile valley. and as along as the researsher was much interested in her lecture concerning the rule of the central sahara and its role in the appearence of the berber people, she gave a view on this desert and the development of the whether, and reminded that the desert of the berbers is more than ten million km[sub]2[/sub], and that the human groupings were in the hight places in the desert. because of the enought quantity's rain in that desert and the difficulty to attribute the changes of the desert to any period although all what is said that the change was in 10000 years ago, because there is no exact date wich contains all the regions of the desert. each region in the desert has an unique case wich depents on the distance between itsel and the sea or the height of the relief, with other words, is it montanious or simple ? but, there are suggesties that in about 12000 b.c., the desert was green again before the is redried in about 10000 b.c., and then it became green again in the period between 9500 and 4000 b.c., which means that the sahara dried and became green in several times, and that the was no permament dryness as there was no permament grassing. and that the hight regions still being damp in spite of the dryness's beginnig, and that provoked the berber people to establish there like as in tasili n ajara, haggar, tibisti, akakus etc... thereafter, she spoked about the material evidences concerning the existance of various people in the desert on the basis of the rock drawings found, since the oldest of them wich is known as "the drawings f the rounded heads", and they represent black people in the first place, who lives as nomads in several regions, and they spend their about four à five mounths, and they appears through the drawings to be expremely related to their beliefs, and that their arts undertake the belief and the sanctuary. and it appeared from archeological works that are made bedise the the drawings of the rocks, that they knew the fictile from about 11.000 b.c. especially in Air in northern niger, and this means that the fictile of the desert is 500 years older than fictile of "hilal alkhasib"[i don't this name, it seems that it lies in the middle eastern], because the oldest remains of the fictile in the old east dated 10.500 b.C.. besides the antiquity of the desert in making the fictile, the researcher reminds that the central desert were the first in another civilization's domein,and that is the domestication of the animals, which is began from about 12000 b.c. with the cows, and ends in 9000 and 8000 b.c. on the basis of the studeing the osses of the domesticated animals, and this means that the central desert generally and in its middle regions especially, knew a civilization which seems to be older that the civilisation of the east, and that the black human is the one who discoverd the infictile industry, and reached the domestication, and that are original discoveries/innovations wich are indegenous, and this proves that the desert would be considered as a one home of the old civilizations.
the researcher [malika hachid] gave brievely a common idea the new occured classification of languages, there are:
-the afro-asiatic languages, wich were known as "the hamo-semitic languages".
-the negro-congo-cordovian language [an extremely bad translation].
-the nilo-saharan language. and she wondered whether congo-cordovian language was the language of the drawed black people on those rocks, or they were the owners of the nilo-saharan languages. it is very difficult to give any decissive judge concerning these topics. and after the phase of the rock's drawings of the blacks, there began some drawings to appear and they contained white people and it dated between 8000 - 7000 b.c. according to the researcher, and the white people are cinsidered as the early berber people who were mentioned with their decorated hair on various manners, tattooes and several symboles. the manners followed by the early berbers [imazighen and timazighin (female- and male berbers] in hair's decorating show that they are the ones who influeced this domein in the following civilization especially the carthagian and thereafter the roman, not the contrary. and it is worthy remind that the decorating with the feathers, had a symbolic value to the early berbers [remind the story of amon's feathers], because it was related to the social rating at the berbers.in addition, the researcher [malika hachid] spoked about the religion's side at the berbers, on the basis of their tombs, she remarked that the studies done on this topic, proved that the male's deads were buried towards the east, wich means that they worshiped the son, and this is what ibn khaldun and herodotus told, that they worshiped the sun and the moon. whereas the tombes the women were buried towards to the west. it appears that this bliefs kept existing untill the tenth century after christus. despite the upcoming of the islam, because polytheistic tombs are found near of the islamic tombes, and the distinction of the twareg [the berbers of the desert] who call the islamic tombes "azka" and the non- islamic tombes "adhanbi". and from the rock arts we infer that the early berbers possessed the cars, which were drawed by the horses, and therethrough they accrossed the deserts, and made connections with several peoples, especially the peoples of the north desert, with egypt and the peoples of the nile valley. like as they knew the silver in the fourth century b.c. and used it to make the weapons wich they used to defend themselves [or to stimulate the wars, according to Mazigh ][...]
posted
i know why the mummy is exactly black and not white !
the berbers were a blondish people who have never seen a black one, and when they saw a black one, they decided to mummify him so that it still exist in the world. because they were afraid that he is the only black one, and there are no black ones anymore. it seems that they didn't mummify anyone more, because all the rest was normal (thus, white ones) to them.
but, there are more archeological evidences needed to explore that dark antiquity.
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: i know why the mummy is exactly black and not white !
the berbers were a blondish people who have never seen a black one, and when they saw a black one, they decided to mummify him so that it still exist in the world. because they were afraid that he is the only black one, and there are no black ones anymore. it seems that they didn't mummify anyone more, because all the rest was normal (thus, white ones) to them.
but, there are more archeological evidences needed to explore that dark antiquity.
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: i know why the mummy is exactly black and not white !
the berbers were a blondish people who have never seen a black one, and when they saw a black one, they decided to mummify him so that it still exist in the world. because they were afraid that he is the only black one, and there are no black ones anymore. it seems that they didn't mummify anyone more, because all the rest was normal (thus, white ones) to them.
but, there are more archeological evidences needed to explore that dark antiquity.
That is the most stupid thing I have heard in this forum.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: That is the most stupid thing I have heard in this forum.
do you believe he -the mummified child- was a berber one who was exeptionally black, and therefor the blondish berbers realised that he has to be mummified because he was extraordinary? he must be an illegal son, i suppose.
don't get bored, those are just jokes !, if you read the translated article above (and understood my english), you would perhaps find the answer.
[This message has been edited by Mazigh (edited 01 September 2005).]
quote:The Garamantes were farmers, engineers and merchants. Their religion was based on Egyptian models, and some of their dead were buried in small pyramids. They used the Libyco-Berber script for writing. The discovery of the "Black Mummy" by Professor Fabrizio Mori at the Uan Muhuggiag suggests that there may even have been a long tradition of mummification in the region.
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: [QUOTE]Originally posted by osirion: [b] That is the most stupid thing I have heard in this forum.
do you believe he -the mummified child- was a berber one who was exeptionally black, and therefor the blondish berbers realised that he has to be mummified because he was extraordinary? he must be an illegal son, i suppose.
don't get bored, those are just jokes !, if you read the translated article above (and understood my english), you would perhaps find the answer.
[This message has been edited by Mazigh (edited 01 September 2005).][/B][/QUOTE]
The mumified child is evidence that the Berbers were originally East African in origin. This combined with genetic and language evidence is a reasonable conclusion. Your speculation is great entertainment but little else. Yes - a good Joke.
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: well, we had the 'Great black God' last year and the black Greeks and recently we heard that jesus was black....heck, why not the black mummy....go for it. We can make him the secret ancestor of the North American Indians. it is rummored that he was a direct ancestor of both elvis and Thomas jefferson.
This is perhaps the craziest thing I have ever heard of! Professor Hore, the same dude that speaks of North African "caucasoids", scoffs and mocks the idea that the prehistoric Central Saharan people to which the mummified boy belonged to was black!!!
Sorry Hore, but the label "black" placed on the mummy was not done Afrocentrics but by white scholars! The show was even aired on the Discovery channel.
Unlike the ancient Egyptians, there is NO debate or controversy whatsoever as to the racial identity of the prehistoric Central Saharan people! The whole academic world acknowledges that they were black and apparently they acknowledge that this mummified boy who pre-dates Egyptians mummies was one of them!!
You need psychiatric help..
Posts: 26307 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: the idea that the prehistoric Central Saharan people to which the mummified boy belonged to was black!!!
hi djehuti, the central sahra was inhabited by mixed inhabitents. there were also white-skined and blue-eyed people. those white people weren't european. but africans.
[This message has been edited by Mazigh (edited 03 September 2005).]
This is perhaps the craziest thing I have ever heard of! Professor Hore, the same dude that speaks of North African "caucasoids", scoffs and mocks the idea that the prehistoric Central Saharan people to which the mummified boy belonged to was black!!!
Sorry Hore, but the label "black" placed on the mummy was not done Afrocentrics but by white scholars! The show was even aired on the Discovery channel.
Unlike the ancient Egyptians, there is NO debate or controversy whatsoever as to the racial identity of the prehistoric Central Saharan people! The whole academic world acknowledges that they were black and apparently they acknowledge that this mummified boy who pre-dates Egyptians mummies was one of them!!
You need psychiatric help..
Professor H is the scarecrow from the wizard of OZ.
What he needs, and lacks...is a brain.
I could wile away the hours Conferrin' with the flowers Consultin' with the rain And my head I'd be scratchin' While my thoughts were busy hatchin' If I only had a brain
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: hi djehuti, the central sahra was inhabited by mixed inhabitents. there were also white-skined and blue-eyed people. those white people weren't european. but africans.
[This message has been edited by Mazigh (edited 03 September 2005).]
Thought Writes:
Of course the neolithic Sahara was inhabited by "mixed people", this region sucked in a mixture of Black African people from all over the continent of Africa as a Eden like abode.
There is no scientific, peer-reviewed evidence that ANY white skined or blue eyed people lived in this region at that time. If you have some real evidence provide it. I doubt you will because I know you are a clown.
Unlike the ancient Egyptians, there is NO debate or controversy whatsoever as to the racial identity of the prehistoric Central Saharan people!
Thought Writes:
In the scientific community there is no real debate or controversy on the origins of the Ancient Egyptians. Most modern biological anthropologists studying this issue recognize the tropical African origin of these people.
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: hi djehuti, the central sahra was inhabited by mixed inhabitents. there were also white-skined and blue-eyed people. those white people weren't european. but africans.
First of all, it depends on the time period and and what you mean by "African"!
I am very aware of the existence of white Berbers, but you've got to be as crazy as Hore to say that these people are aboriginal to Africa. There are whites in Southern Africa and the only difference is that white Berbers have lived on the continent much longer but still neither are as African as the black populations.
One must also consider the time period. As far as the Central Sahara, there has been no presence of any non-black people until late periods. All the cave and rock paintings in the area that you spoke of show as all scholars say, "negroid" people throughout the Neolithic, when the Sahara was not desert but fertile grassland. The earliest evidence of white Berbers come from the coastal areas.
quote:the berbers were a blondish people who have never seen a black one, and when they saw a black one, they decided to mummify him so that it still exist in the world. because they were afraid that he is the only black one, and there are no black ones anymore...
You seem to be under the assumption that Berber means white Berber. We know there are plenty of black Berber-speaking peoples scattered throughout North Africa, from the Haratin of Morocco, to the Tuareg of Algeria, to the Siwa of northwestern Egypt. Berber is an Afraisan language and as such has its ultimate origins in Africa.
[This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 03 September 2005).]
Posts: 26307 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
hi thought2 and djehuti, there are clear evidences that the central sahara was inhabited by blue-eyed and fair-skinned people, they appeared in about 7000 b.C.-5000 b.C. those people are africans, because there is no evidence that there are non-africans.
the temhu were blondish with blue eyes and fair skin.
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