Africa south of the Sahara, is the term used to describe those countries of Africa that are not part of North Africa.

In 19th century Europe and America, sub-Saharan Africa was commonly known as Black Africa or as Dark Africa, partly because of the race of its indigenous inhabitants and partly because much of it had not been fully mapped or explored by Westerners (Africa as a whole was sometimes labelled "the dark continent").

These terms are now obsolete, and often considered to be offensive. The neutral phrase African Uplands was preferred by Hegel and some other writers of the time, however this was primarily intended to refer to the African interior as opposed to coastal regions.

The modern term sub-Saharan corresponds with the standard representation of North as above and South as below.

Tropical Africa is an alternative modern label, related to the word Afrotropic, used for the distinctive ecology of the region. However, if strictly applied, this term would exclude South Africa and the Sahel, which lie outside the Tropics.

This division of Africa has arisen from primarily geographic, historical and geopolitical considerations, resulting in profound differences, particularly in the West, with regard to perceptions of North and sub-Saharan Africa. Since the end of the last Ice Age, the two regions have been separated by the extremely harsh climate of the sparsely populated Sahara, forming an effective barrier interrupted by only the Nile River.

North Africa's inhabitants are generally erroneously perceived and portrayed by the West to be predominantly Caucasoid.

Such mischaracterizations have arisen from the relatively recent political predominance of Arabs in certain portions of the region in the 7th century A.D. and the confusion of the original, black Berbers of East, (who have been heavily Arabized over the centuries), with the fairer-skinned Berbers of the Maghreb.

It is further complicated by historical events and modern geopolitical considerations which essentially have taken Egypt out of Africa, conceptually speaking, and placed it in the Middle East. This has created a false dichotomy in the minds of many between sub-Saharan, or "black," Africa and North Africa. Sudan is a case in point.

It is considered a North African nation, but its inhabitants are predominantly dark-skinned, black Africans.

Further, as in ancient times, blacks comprise significant portions of the populations of many North African nations, including the Tuareg Berbers, who can be found across the breadth of North Africa, and other indigenous Berber populations, as well as various other black African peoples, including the Imraguen, Tebu and Haratin of Algeria, Libya, Tunisia, Morocco and Mauritania.[1]

Even the so-called "Caucasoid" and Arab populations of North Africa are often swarthy and possess other Africoid physical characteristics, or have Tuareg or other black ancestry.

As a result, the arbitrary grouping of African nations into geopolitical regions, and the misperceptions associated with such divisions—particularly those based on notions of race and ethnicity—are fraught with inherent contradictions.

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Originally posted by rasol:
[b]Sub-Saharan Africa, Wikipedia:

North Africa's inhabitants are generally erroneously perceived and portrayed by the West to be predominantly Caucasoid.

Such mischaracterizations have arisen from the relatively recent political predominance of Arabs in certain portions of the region in the 7th century A.D. and the confusion of the original, black Berbers of East, (who have been heavily Arabized over the centuries), with the fairer-skinned Berbers of the Maghreb.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-Saharan_Africa [/B]

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black berbers don't exist. the berbers are between brown and fair skinned. the berbers are much fairer than the arabs.
the black berbers aren't berbers in origin, but berberised black africans like as the harratins.

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Originally posted by Mazigh:
black berbers don't exist.

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the black berbers aren't berbers in origin

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The 1st statement contradicts the second.

The second statement contradicts itself and so scarsely requires refuting.

One of the biggest mythologies regarding the Berber, which you are guilty of spreading, and as pointed out correctly by the Encyclopedia article - is the confusion over the NorthWest Africans of the Maghreb, with "Berber"

Berber is a langauge group that originates in East Africa and spread from NorthEast Africa to NorthWest Africa. It is not an ethnic group.

Berber's are multi-ethnic and originate in and among East Africans and spread from NorthEast Africa to NorthWest Africa.

And of course there are Black Berbers, and in fact the earliest known Berber speaking people are the Black East African Berber.

This is all correctly noted in the article.

Your view of Berber is both outdated and mythological, and is not in accord with the linguistic, genetic and archeological data.

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the use of the term "caucasoid" is misleading

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That much is correct, and was noted as such by the article cited. Berber is African in origin. Berber originated in Africa, exists only in Africa and has no Asian, European or "Caucasian" origin.

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The 1st statement contradicts the second.

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The second statement contradicts itself and so scarsely requires refuting.

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One of the biggest mythologies regarding the Berber, which you are guilty of spreading, and as pointed out correctly by the Encyclopedia article - is the confusion over the NorthWest Africans of the Maghreb, with "Berber"

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Berber is a langauge group that originates in East Africa and spread from NorthEast Africa to NorthWest Africa. It is not an ethnic group.

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Berber's are multi-ethnic and originate in and among East Africans and spread from NorthEast Africa to NorthWest Africa.

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And of course there are Black Berbers, and in fact the earliest known Berber speaking people are the Black East African Berber.

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This is all correctly noted in the article.

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Your view of Berber is both outdated and mythological, and is not in accord with the linguistic, genetic and archeological data.

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and in fact the earliest known Berber speaking people are the Black East African Berber.

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The 1st statement contradicts the second.

The second statement contradicts itself and so scarsely requires refuting.

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Mazigh writes:
it would be better to use a better argument.

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Lol. And less redundant phraseology yes, but the question is....do you have one?

Let's see.

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rasol writes:
One of the biggest mythologies regarding the Berber, which you are guilty of spreading, and as pointed out correctly by the Encyclopedia article - is the confusion over the NorthWest Africans of the Maghreb, with "Berber"

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Mazigh writes: i don't think we need judgments, but arguments, without calling anything "mythology" or "shinnig fact".

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Facts are facts, they don't go away because you don't like them. So far, It is fair to say that you've countered facts stated in the Encyclopedia with self contradictory statements, which do not refute the facts.

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rasol writes:
Berber is a langauge group that originates in East Africa and spread from NorthEast Africa to NorthWest Africa. It is not a single ethnic group.

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Mazigh writes: you are trying to confuse the sentences

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Nope. Just stating facts. You are stalling. Meaning you are objecting to what is said, and yet you can think of no factual basis for objection. So far your reply to me is devoid of substance.

But I'm a patient man, so....

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Mazigh writes: what is your definition for the ethnicity.

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People sharing a common physical and cultural heritage - not just a common language, or nationality, or history.

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Mazigh writes: and why do you think it isn't a ethnicity?

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It is a group of related languages, spoken by ethnically distinct peoples, some of whom are listed below:

Are the Kabyle and Taureg and Siwa a single ethnic group? What do the names signify if not ethnic distinctions? ?

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Mazigh writes: i know you would confuse all the terms to conclude any blackness of the berbers

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Meanwhile you have not refuted a single word stated in the parent article.

Why is that?

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rasol writes:
And of course there are Black Berbers, and in fact the earliest known Berber speaking people are the Black East African Berber.

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Mazigh writes: No "of course", there are no black berber

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Of course there are.

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rasol: the berbers are believed to have been {appeared as capsians}, this 'race' appeared in the period 7000-5000 b.C.

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There is no evidence of a any thing as "Berber race", [your personal race myth], that "appears" as Capsians.

The genetic, archeological and anthropological evidence is that the Berber migrated from East Africa to NorthWest Africa into an environment containing 'few humans', [per Christopher Ehret, Rando, Arredi, Luis].

Do you have peer reviewed and uptodate information to the contrary?

Yes or no?

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Mazigh writes: and it is undesputed that the ibero-maurusian who is considerd as one of the berber ancestors, was white.

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No, but what is unrefuted by you is the following:

Rando et al.
1998

"The majority of maternal ancestors of the NorthWest Berbers must have COME FROM EUROPE and the Near East SINCE the Neolithic."

Luis et al.
2004

"This proposal is in accordance with a population expansion involving E3b2-M81 believed to have occurred in northwestern Africa 2 ky.

The CONSIDERABLY OLDER linear expansion estimate of the Egyptian E3b2-M81 (5.4 ky ago) is also compatible with this scenario.

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rasol:
This is all correctly noted in the article.

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Mazigh writes: unbased judgement.

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...incomplete sentense and incoherent thought. You refute nothing.

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rasol writes:
Your view of Berber is both outdated and mythological, and is not in accord with the linguistic, genetic and archeological data.

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Mazigh writes: well, your insistence of using the terms "mythology" "outdated"

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...is accurate and based upon the fact that you have still offered no current, peer reviewed scholarship disproving any fact stated in the article presented.

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rasol, please don't forget to give the explanation how the berbers are speaking the same language but they aren't ethnicity.

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Actually Berber is a group of languages, not a single language. And language is not the same thing as ethnicity. Latin languages include Spanish, Portugese and Italian, spoken by Mexicans, Brazilians and Puerto Ricans. Language is distinct from ethnicity.

i even will summarize the discussion in those following points:
-1-"the eastern berbers are black"
-2-"the berbers are not an ethnicity"
-3-"there are black berbers"
-4-"the berbers aren't descendents of the capsians (with other already existed races in north africa, like as the ibero-maurusians)"

my answers:
-1-how about the berbers/libyans depicted by the egyptians like as the image given atop with two feathers, and they are fair-skinned ? Is there any pharaonic remain depecting the libyans/berbers as black people ?

-2-you gave that map to say there aren't an ethncity, because it depicts many groups in several regions. and i tell you that many of that tribes belongs some time to one TRIBE like as the berbers of the aures and the riffains. or like as the souss berbers and the shluh berbers..., this means that those groups wich you like to consider them as independent tribes that have nothing to do with the other berbers, but the languages, belong sometime to one TRIBE, do you believe that three groups that belong to one tribes are three ethnicities ?! this is illogical, best friend.
just one tribe extended in the past from the atlantic ocean to the western borders of egypt, like as the hawwara tribe, and the luwata tribe.
you see them in several regions, because they didn't become arabised, and for that reason they are so situated far than the other group berbers, not because they are deffirent.
you also see many names, but those names were originally six groups/tribes, and don't forget that those variations are to reduce to one proto-language.
http://www.geocities.com/linguaeimperii/Libyan/libyan_es.html

the ethnicity is defined by the cultural, historical, geografical, languistic and racial norms.
let's those norms with the case of the berbers:
cultural norm: the berbers are mentioned by ibn khaldun with wearing the burnous, eating the couscous, and hair shaving (don't forget the culture of the two plumes in the pharonic age). they have one calendar and almost the same feast's manner in that occasion. the berbers have related mythology from the morocco to libya, like as the mythology of tamza however this is most related with the riffains, i knew it also known in libya. they believed in the some gods, like as amon. amon was worshiped in all the maghrib [the ancient berber world]. the greeks called the berber/libyan gods "the libyan gods", they didn't call them to the berber tribes. i give also the example of "poseidon". the cult of this god was widespread in all the maghrib.
moreover, the culture of the pyramids, those pyramids are spread in all the maghrib including the sahara and the canary islands. the script that is called tifinagh was widespead all those regions. thus, it is clear enough they had one mythology, and one culture.

the history: the historians use the common sentence: "the history of the berbers".

the language: the berbers speak one language that is called the berber language or tamazight with soem variations concerning the the pronuncitions of the words. and all the berbers call their language with one name (beside the name of the variations), and that name is "tamazight".

the name of the berbers: the greeks called them the "libyans" and the rest was considered as tribes. when the arabs entered the maghrib they found there was one group "the berbers", and they gave them one name "al-barbar", and didn't despute their unity.
all the berbers call themselves "imazighen", and this shows clearly they are consience of their one origin. even the name amazigh is believed to be derived from the name of a berber/libyan/amazigh TRIBE that was called "the maxyans". thus, you see that all the bebers are probably using the name one tribes, and you want to consider them as several ethnicities ?.

the race: it is clear that the berbers have more than one ancestors like as all the ethnicities of the world (you might refut this), but they mainly believed to be the descendants of one race that is called "the capsia" (the ibero-maurisian is also considered as ancestor of the berbers). thus, all those groups that you see are supposed to have one mainly race "the capsian". and i will undertake this point.

-3-you and they claim they are black berbers, and i say that it isn't true, i gave the depicts of the ancient egyptians that show them as "fair-skinned" people. and you have give an ancient depict that the berbers were black, what you surely wouldn't do.
instead you gave an image of a black one, wich is claimed to be berber, and therefor, i ask you to give me the name of the tribe/group to wich it belongs to realize if that group is generally black or you are hunting the exeptions.

-4- about the ancestors of the berbers you can read this: http://www.mondeberbere.com/histoire/camps/origines.htm

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Originally posted by rasol:
Actually Berber is a group of languages, not a single language. And language is not the same thing as ethnicity. Latin languages include Spanish, Portugese and Italian, spoken by Mexicans, Brazilians and Puerto Ricans. Language is distinct from ethnicity.

Hope that helps to relieve a bit of your confusion.

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...this 'race' appeared in the period 7000-5000 b.C. and the depicts found of the white people in the central sahara dates back to that period.

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Another thing laughable is Mazighs incessant claims of whites being depicted in Central Saharan art!

I have seen probably all the rock art and they all show black people. In another thread, Mazigh's example of a "white person" among the artwork is a very unnaturally depicted form of a person who happens to be blank white with no details on hair, let alone face! The artwork obviously symbolic and so unnatural that one might call the figure more anthropomorphic than an actual human depiction!

When I get the chance, sometime in the future I'm going to have to post pictures of the rock art on this forum.

Sorry Mazigh, but Tamahu white Libyans originated from the western delta and not from the Central Sahara. What's more is that their predecessors, the Tjehenu were depicted in the same way as the Egyptians-- brown (black).

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
Another thing laughable is Mazighs incessant claims of whites being depicted in Central Saharan art!

I have seen probably all the rock art and they all show black people. In another thread, Mazigh's example of a "white person" among the artwork is a very unnaturally depicted form of a person who happens to be blank white with no details on hair, let alone face! The artwork obviously symbolic and so unnatural that one might call the figure more anthropomorphic than an actual human depiction!

When I get the chance, sometime in the future I'm going to have to post pictures of the rock art on this forum.

Sorry Mazigh, but Tamahu white Libyans originated from the western delta and not from the Central Sahara. What's more is that their predecessors, the Tjehenu were depicted in the same way as the Egyptians-- brown (black).

[This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 14 September 2005).]

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did you see this one ?
is he really balck, and unhuman:
http://ennedi.free.fr/cabal2.htm

"Cette population saharienne est composée d'une multitude de groupes humains, provenant de migrations successives, Noirs, Blancs, Métis, tous différents mais unis dans une même civilisation bovidienne que l'on peut considérer comme étant à l'origine de l' Afrique actuelle." http://ennedi.free.fr/

really laughable !

may i see the black eastern libyans ?

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i will avoid the claim that my sentences are contrasting each other

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Avoiding is not answering.

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i would understand my sentences more than you untherstand them.

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Perhaps, but the goal of communication is that 'others' might understand, so I don't see how that helps you.

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i even will summarize the discussion in those following points:
-1-"the eastern berbers are black"

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Some Western ones are too. Remember, you are defending the blanket statement that there are no Black Berber.

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-2-"the berbers are not an ethnicity"

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-3-"there are black berbers"

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-4-"the berbers aren't descendents of the capsians

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It is a stone cold fact [pun intended] that Berber language and males lineages originated over a thousand miles to the East - East Africa.

Menwhile NW African females have predominently European and therefore non-Berber origins.

I want to emphasize the following: IT IS THE EURASIAN FEMALES WHO WERE "BERBERISED" [whatever that means].

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my answers:
-1-how about the berbers/libyans?

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What about them? There is no proof linking these people to Berber speaking groups, and the iconography you posted is far too late to testifiy to Berber origins at any rate.

The oldest known people who can be directly linked to the Berber are the Tehenu....referenced in the old kingdom, linked to Siwa Oasis, portrayed as dark in kemetic iconography, and continuing to live their to this day.So we see that the Nhsj were also referred to as Temehu, but they spoke Nilo-Saharan languages, while the Tehenu spoke a Berber language.

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-2-you gave that map to say there aren't an ethncity, because it depicts many groups in several regions.

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and i tell you that many of that tribes belongs some time to one TRIBE

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1st off: I don't consider African peoples 'tribes', that is crude and prejudiced term.

2ndly: I am sure that Berber speaking people have a shared origin with lots of other Africans, including Nilo-Saharan, Afrasan, and Niger-Congo speakers, but that has no bearing on the fact that - the Siwa and the Kabyle - for example, are ethnically distinct.

For one thing the Siwa are predominently African maternally and paternally, but the Kabyle are predominently African paternally and predominently European [AND THEREFORE NON-BERBER] maternally.

I know of no-one other than you who claims they are a single ethnic group. Certainly the Siwa don't make such a claim.

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the ethnicity is defined by the cultural, historical, geografical, languistic and racial norms.

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Of those things the Berber really only have langauge in common, although their culture is rooted in the Saharo-Sudanese neolithic as well [and not the capsian, which is irrelevant to Siwa/Touareg etc.]

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-3-you and they claim they are black berbers, and i say that it isn't true

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i gave the depicts of the ancient egyptians that show them as "fair-skinned" people.

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You've proven nothing.

I asked you for peer reviewed scientific evidence disputing the specific scholarship and linguistic, genetic and anthropological evidence provided.

You have provided none.

Until you do, the facts stated in the cited article stand...COMPLETELY UNREFUTED BY YOU.

Let us know if you ever find any reputable evidence. We promise to credit you for it, should it be forthcoming.

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What's more is that their predecessors, the Tjehenu were depicted in the same way as the Egyptians-- brown (black).

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Correct, there is also evidence linking the Siwa, Medjay and Taureg genetically. Luca Sforza theorizes and East African origin for the Taureg and found that they were surprisingly genetically close to the Medajay [Beja]. He did not study the Siwa.

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really laughable !

may i see the black eastern libyans ?

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"Cette population saharienne est composée d'une multitude de groupes humains, provenant de migrations successives, Noirs, Blancs, Métis, tous différents mais unis dans une même civilisation bovidienne que l'on peut considérer comme étant à l'origine de l' Afrique actuelle."

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Translation:

quote:

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Originally posted by Calypso:
Translation:

This Saharan population is composed of several human groups, coming from successive migrations, Black, White, Mixed, all different but united in the same cattle based civilisation that one can consider to be the actual origin of Africa.

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quote:

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know of no-one other than you who claims they are a single ethnic group. Certainly the Siwa don't make such a claim.

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Actually this same argument about ethnicity and what "Berbers" means had been initiated in the Sheshonq 1, between Mazigh and I, but after sensing some sort of a communication gap, I didn't bother any further!

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Some Western ones are too. Remember, you are defending the blanket statement that there are no Black Berber.

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They are a multi-ethnic language group.

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As shown above.

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quote:
Capsian is an archeology group, not a lineage or language, and there is no evidence linking the origins of Berber lineage or language to the Capsian shell mound and stone tool archeology group of NW Africa.
[/quote]
it is believed that the berber language appeared with the capsian men (moustapha ouachi, archeologist and historian, specialised in the history of north africa).
how about the term "archeological group" ? they are archeological, but this doesn't mean they didn't have a language, or didn't exist.

[/quote]
It is a stone cold fact [pun intended] that Berber language and males lineages originated over a thousand miles to the East - East Africa. [/quote]
you want tell me that the lebaneses are black, because their language is afro-asiatic.

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Menwhile NW African females have predominently European and therefore non-Berber origins.

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What about them? There is no proof linking these people to Berber speaking groups, and the iconography you posted is far too late to testifiy to Berber origins at any rate.

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The oldest known people who can be directly linked to the Berber are the Tehenu....referenced in the old kingdom, linked to Siwa Oasis, portrayed as dark in kemetic iconography, and continuing to live their to this day.

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The inhabitants of Libya were called Tmhw (Temehus). The Temehus were organized into two groups the Thnw (Tehenu) in the North and the Nhsj (Nehesy) in the South (Diop 1986).

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The Temehus are called the C-Group people by archaeologists(Jelinek,1985; Quellec, 1985). The central Fezzan was a center of C-Group settlement.
Quellec (1985, p.373) discussed in detail the presence of C-Group culture traits in the Central Fezzan along with their cattle during the middle of the Third millennium BC. The Temehus or C-Group people began to settle Kush around 2200.

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So we see that the Nhsj were also referred to as Temehu, but they spoke Nilo-Saharan languages, while the Tehenu spoke Berber.

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Both were and are Black. Moreover there is genetic evidence linking these peoples.

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...many ethnic groups. I asked you a question, what are they if not ethnic groups?

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:
1st off: I don't consider African peoples 'tribes', that is crude and prejudiced term.

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2ndly: I am sure that Berber speaking people have a shared origin with lots of other Africans, including Nilo-Saharan, Afrasan, and Niger-Congo speakers, but that has no bearing on the fact that - the Siwa and the Kabyle - for example, are ethnically distinct.

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For one thing the Siwa are predominently African maternally and paternally, but the Kabyle are predominently African paternally and predominently European [AND THEREFORE NON-BERBER] maternally.[quote]
where are those conclusions based ? the siwis are brown, because of the son, not others. the siwis maybe of the same origin of the riffains who are generally fair-skinned and some time blond-haired.

[quote]
I know of no-one other than you who claims they are a single ethnic group. Certainly the Siwa don't make such a claim.

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:
Of those things the Berber really only have langauge in common, although their culture is rooted in the Saharo-Sudanese neolithic as well [and not the capsian, which is irrelevant to Siwa/Touareg etc.]

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Say whatever you like, but you've been shown Black berbers, that you need to deny their existence, even having seen them speaks poorly of you.

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Nope. The picture you provided of some fair skinned Libyans provides no proof whatsoever of Berber origin, and has no bearing on the fact of the existence of Black berber.
You've proven nothing.

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I asked you for peer reviewed scientific evidence disputing the specific scholarship and linguistic, genetic and anthropological evidence provided.

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You have provided none.

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Until you do, the facts stated in the cited article stand...COMPLETELY UNREFUTED BY YOU.

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Let us know if you ever find any reputable evidence. We promise to credit you for it, should it be forthcoming.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Calypso:
Translation:

This Saharan population is composed of several human groups, coming from successive migrations, Black, White, Mixed, all different but united in the same cattle based civilisation that one can consider to be the actual origin of Africa.

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or do you think for the sake of the blackness this fact has to be ignored ?

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you can say everything, but you have to show something.

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i showed that the groups of your map,

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even don't represent the language's groups.

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how about the term "archeological group" ? they are archeological, but this doesn't mean they didn't have a language, or didn't exist.

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The Berber language comes from East Africa where it originated and still exists, and was imported into NorthWest Africa. It is not of NW African [capsian] origin. The fact stands unrefuted. You argue on and on, but never refute anything.

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you want tell me that the lebaneses are black, because their language is afro-asiatic.

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You are the one confusing Berber language with skin color. The facts stated in the cited article is that they are a multi-ethnic language group with an East African origin.

As ever, that fact is unrefuted by the irrelevant straw argument you put forward.

The only progress made in terms of your own understanding was provided by way of Calypso's helpful translation of your own source:

Translation:

This Saharan population is composed of several human groups, coming from successive migrations, Black, White, Mixed,,,,all different but united in the same cattle based civilisation that one can consider to be the actual origin of Africa.

If you admit that the Berber are successively of Black, white and mixed lineage then you have agreed with EVERYTHING presented in the article cited, and refuted your own statements about them.

You are arguing against the facts you yourself presented. Very odd.

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rasol writes:
Menwhile NW African females have predominently European and therefore non-Berber origins.

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Masigh asks: any evidence ?

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Mitochondrial DNA analysis of northwest African populations.

The majority of the maternal ancestors of the Berbers must have come from Europe and the Near East since the Neolithic. - Rando JC, Pinto F, Gonzalez AM, Hernandez M, Larruga JM, Cabrera VM, Bandel

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Originally posted by Mazigh:
see this to see whether the berbers are considered as ethnicity or not !

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From your source:

Berber Ethnic Groups:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mazigh:

or do you think for the sake of the blackness this fact has to be ignored ?

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Again from YOUR SOURCE:

caption says: Touareg Berber of Mali.

Or do you think that for the sake of whiteness, the fact of Black Berber should be ignored?

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
What are we to make of the Siwa Berbers above? They live kind of far from the Magrheb yet they speak a Berber language.

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The CONSIDERABLY OLDER linear expansion estimate of the Egyptian E3b2-M81 (5.4 ky ago) is also compatible with this scenario. - Luis et al. 2004

Linguistics, genetics, archeology [Sudanese neolithic], and historical record [tehenu] makes the Siwa the oldest known Berber speaking group.

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
The CONSIDERABLY OLDER linear expansion estimate of the Egyptian E3b2-M81 (5.4 ky ago) is also compatible with this scenario. - Luis et al. 2004

Linguistics, genetics, archeology [Sudanese neolithic], and historical record [tehenu] makes the Siwa the oldest known Berber speaking group.

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Which means the original Berber speakers were dark skinned, not "berberized" as Mazigh hypothesizes. Actually E3b2 predominantly carried by Berbers, also found in Sudan and the African Horn, is further testament to its East African origins.

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Originally posted by Super car:
Which means the original Berber speakers were dark skinned, not "berberized" as Mazigh hypothesizes. Actually E3b2 predominantly carried by Berbers, also found in Sudan and the African Horn, is further testament to its East African origins.

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Since the E3b*-M35 lineages appear to be confined mostly to the sub-Saharan populations, it is conceivable that the initial migrations TOWARD North Africa FROM the south primarily involved derivative E3b-M35 lineages.

These include E3b1-M78, a haplogroup espe-cially common in Ethiopia (23%), and, perhaps, E3b2-M123 (2%), which is present as well (Underhill et al.2000; Cruciani et al. 2002; Semino et al. 2002).

The data suggest that two later expansions may have followed: one eastward along the Levantine corridor into the Near East and the other westward toward northwestern Africa. - luis,underhill,et al.

It is the uncivil language ethnic slurs and the like that drove intelligent discussants away.

I really don't understand why that was allowed to go on for so long...but obviously something changed today, and if Egyptsearch.com moderators are responsible for it, I appreciate it.

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Originally posted by rasol:
One thing I appreciate is the the civil tone of the discussion.

It is the uncivil language ethnic slurs and the like that drove intelligent discussants away.

I really don't understand why that was allowed to go on for so long...but obviously something changed today, and if Egyptsearch.com moderators are responsible for it, I appreciate it.

The reason why I migrated this Nile Valley forum thread also to this forum was to see if there was any improvement in this regard.

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i will speak about the fabricated berber blackness. try to concentrate on this:
i gave an image deicting the berbers as fair-skinned people, and surely there are more than that. but you clain they can't be connected to the berber people, and the question is: why not ?

you also, like as djehuti did, gave an image of dark-skinned people, and you claim they are representing the berber blackness. i personally, consider it as manipulating to fabricate the berber blackness, however, the original berbers were never black, as far as i know.
to solve this, you will have to give my the origin of those supposed black berbers, to realize wheather that group are really berbers in origin, or just berberized, or they are nothing others than exeptions (sun-burned as example).

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Rando et al. 1998 "detected female-mediated gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa to NW Africa" amounting to as much as 21.5% of the mtDNA sequences in a sample of NW African populations; the amount varied from 82% (Touaregs) to 4% (Rifains). This north-south gradient in the sub-Saharan contribution to the gene pool is supported by Esteban et al.

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The origin of Berber languages is still unresolved. But even if it turns out to be in Africa, it would be Northeast Africa, in close proximity to Arabia:

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The Berber languages form a branch of Afro-Asiatic, and thus descended from the proto-Afro-Asiatic language; on the basis of linguistic migration theory, this is most commonly believed by historical linguists (notably Igor Diakonoff and Christopher Ehret) to have originated in east Africa no earlier than 12,000 years ago, although Alexander Militarev argues instead for an origin in the Middle East. Ehret specifically suggests identifying the Capsian culture with speakers of languages ancestral to Berber and/or Chadic, and sees the Capsian culture as having been brought there from the African coast of the Red Sea. It is still disputed which branches of Afro-Asiatic are most closely related to Berber, but most linguists accept at least one of Semitic and Chadic as among its closest relatives within the family.

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of course, they would say the hebrews were black, and that jezus was black too, i know.

the tuareg are the most blacked berbers, because they live daily in burning sun, and also because of their connections with the balck africans.

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Originally posted by Mazigh:
now, i think that you try to confuse the topic to cover the ramp about the berber blackness.

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The only one trying to confuse the topic is you. You may or may not be confusing yourself. You are not confusing anyone else.

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it is clear enough that the deffirence between the berber groups isn't broader thatn the deffirences between the ancient egyptians.

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Case in point - ethnic groups is the term you are running away from. And, that isn't clear, but it is clearly irrelevant. You have yet to honestly directly address any point in contention.

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I
i gave an image deicting the berbers as fair-skinned people,

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Again, you've proven nothing, and you've not addressed the evidence provided.

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but you clain they can't be connected to the berber people, and the question is: why not ?

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you gave an image of dark-skinned people, and you claim they are representing the berber blackness. i personally, consider it as manipulating to fabricate the berber blackness

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The photo of the Black Berber came directly from the website YOU LINKED us to.

It directly and complete refutes your somehwat silly claim that there are no Black Berber, and you clearly have no answer to it.

In essence.....

* On the one hand you have no evidence to support your position.

* On the other hand, you have no answers to the evidence that clearly contradicts you, in fact you don't even try to answer the genetic and linguistic evidence.

You have provided no factual basis for objection to the article cited, only prejudice against Black Berber, whom you lie to yourself about in order to convince yourself that they don't exist even when looking directly at them.

If that's the best you can do....then it's just messed up.

We're not impressed Mazigh.

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

What are we to make of the Siwa Berbers above? They live kind of far from the Magrheb yet they speak a Berber language.

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i found this on the siwans (check it, you find more):

check this to realize the siwans are rather fair-skinned than blacks! http://photo.source.cz/pic/album/25/pos/1

Again from YOUR SOURCE:

caption says: Touareg Berber of Mali

You have to do better than claim the pictures are somehow fabricated.

Either you will admit here and now that there are Black Berber.

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Case in point. That isn't clear, but it is clearly irrelevant. You have yet to honestly directly address any point in contention.

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Well no, you gave a New Kingdom Egyptian image showing some fair skinned Libyans. We know that there were fair skinned Libyans, that is not in dispute. That image does not prove anything about the origins of the Berber.

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No, the question is.....why?
If you present an image and claim it's "Berber" then the burdan of proof is on you to demonstrate this. You have not done so. You present no proof.

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The photo of the Black Berber came directly from the website YOU LINKED us to. You because me of 'fabricating' it - RIDICULOUS -because you in fact have no answer to it.

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On the other hand, you have no answer to the evidence that clearly contradicts you [you don't even try to answer the genetic and linguistic evidence].

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We're not impressed Mazigh.

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Originally posted by rasol:
Mazigh, i'm sorry but you are still not addressing the fact of the Black Berber.

Again from [b]YOUR SOURCE:

caption says: Touareg Berber of Mali

You have to do better than claim the pictures are somehow fabricated.

Either you will admit here and now that there are Black Berber.

Or admit that you lie, even to yourself, out of racism. [/B]

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i don't know wich source, but let us say they undesputed blacks, and they are honestly typic of the berbers of mali.

don't you think you are so far from the eastern berbers who are the point of this topic ?
don't you think that it is not safe to consider them as valuable example, given that mali is a black country where the berbers impossibly will remain unmixed ?

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Originally posted by Mazigh:
everyone knows that the berber language is in the same level with the egyptian languages, and there is no diffirence

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Once again, a questionable remark that has NO RELEVANCE to the issue at hand.

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to get any point, you may not confuse the the data,

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this is the reason for this unefficient long discussion, you have to know that libyan is another word for "berber"

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In Km.t, it refered to any people living West of the Nile - including Siwa which is today a part of Egypt. Today, Libya refers to a country, not a multi-ethnic language group.

Similarly Berber also refers to different peoples throughout history: including Nubian peoples who speak Nilo-saharan languages having nothing to do with the Berber speaking people.

The word Berber itself is of Greek origin and really means "Barbarian".

There is a town in Sudan called "Berber", but there are no Berber speakers who live there.

Again...your problem is that you are seeking to create a mythology around "Berber", which requires you to ignore the, for you, often unpleasant facts.

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i don't remember wich link, but those blacks you claim to be berbers

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, but, you can't change your illusions. you claim that the berbers have to be black, because they are afro-asian speakers

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Originally posted by rasol:

Or admit that you lie, even to yourself, out of racism. [/B]

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Originally posted by Mazigh:
i don't know wich source, but let us say they undesputed blacks,

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lol. Yes, let's face reality if for only a moment shall we.

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and they are honestly typical of the berbers of mali.

don't you think you are so far from the eastern berbers who are the point of this topic ?

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The Tuareg, who have always been a very mobile people extend over an area stretching from the northern boundary of the dry Sahara (Algeria and Libya) into the Sahel ( p. 171). The authors (p. 173) show that there is a surprizing degree of genetic similarity between the W. African Tuareg and the E. African Beja (whose genetic distance from the Tuareg is only 135),... a people in the Eastern Sahara whose territory adjoins the Red Sea.

The genetic similarity is surprizing given a relatively large geographic distance. They hypothesize a common [East African] origin, perhaps 5000 years ago.

- E Miller, reviewing Cavalli-Sforza "History/Geography of Human Genes"

The Tuareg people are predominently nomadic people of the sahara desert, mostly in the Northern reaches of Mali near Timbuktu and Kidal. The Taureg are often referred to as "Blue Men of the desert " - because their robes are dyed indigo blue.

Tehenu is a Kemetic [ancient egyptian] word.

Please translate "Tehenu" for us? What does it mean?

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Tehenu is a Kemetic [ancient egyptian] word.

Please translate "Tehenu" for us? What does it mean?

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now, we see you'are tending to give the images of the twareg who live in the burning sun with the black peoples. even it seems you give an incorrect typic color of the twareg, because some twareg are much fairer, like as it has been schown with the image of the "tinariwen".

the requested answer:
the tehunu were a libyan [this means "berber"] tribe, who were called in the oldest documents of the ancient egyptians [about 3000 b.C], but they were refered much older to, because they were depicted in pre-dynastic pallet, that might date back to older than 4000 b.C.

firstly, i doubt that the name "tehenu" is an egyptian word, however, i can't deny that. we have some modern berber words with that from like as "tamasheq" wich is sometime related to the name of the ancient libyan/berber tribe "tamahou", however this is unsure.

well, hasan salim believe that the word "tehenu" is an egyptian word. that name is translated as the "shining", and also as "glass".
hasan salim translated it on two manners:"the sun come up" "the sun is shining". he explained his interpretation with saying that their clothes were shinig, but that is incorrect because their clothes were colorful.

mohamed moustapha bazam believe that the name is to explain with their fairness, and their name would mean the whiteness as distinction between the egyptians who were brown. (mohamed moustapha bazma, libya: this name in the history).

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Question and challenge for Mazigh:

The Tuareg people are predominently nomadic people of the sahara desert, mostly in the Northern reaches of Mali near Timbuktu and Kidal. The Taureg are often referred to as "Blue Men of the desert " - because their robes are dyed indigo blue.
Tehenu is a Kemetic [ancient egyptian] word.

Please translate "Tehenu" for us? What does it mean?

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Mazigh writes: now, we see you'are tending to give the images of the twareg who live in the burning sun with the black peoples.

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What we see is that you continue to ramble on without ever addressing the evidence or answering the questions.

Here is an answer.....

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Wally wrote:
An Egyptian Hieroglyphic Dictionary; Author: Budge, EA Wallis

-> look up the word "Tehenn"; it is written with the determinative for this word; you will see a definition of "dazzling; shining; blue-faience"; it's really a Mdu Ntr word for "blue"...
Tehenn + ou = Blue people

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In theory, Tehenou = Blue people = Blue men of the Desert = Taureg = Egyptian Berber of Siwa.

http://phpbb-host.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=309&start=0&mforum=thenile

One could say that Filipinos are "brown" and not "yellow" when compared to Chinese or Koreans and that Chinese and Koreans are "fair-skinned" compared to Filipinos.

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
It seems to me that Mazigh is either confused or feigning confusion over the concept of "black".

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The later, which is why I ignore it.

That he resorts to referring to photographs of Black Berber from his own source/link as "fabricated" reveals the depths of his desparation.

Black Berber have always 'messed up the game'.

All the old excuses made to explain them away have collapsed in the face of linguistic and genetic data linking Berber to an East African origin.