quote:Originally posted by Thoth&Horus: Did Tiye wore a nubian wig?
I believe so, but the better question is what is the accuracy of the term "Nubian" wig??
We know the Egyptians never used the term Nubian, but was such a style of wig associated with 'Nubian' peoples or was it really Egyptian?
By the way, the Nubian wig is a braided wig with braids that are short in the back but hang long at the sides of the face.
Actually, it is a misnomer. The wig is actually Egyptian in origin. In fact, ancient Egyptians were primarily responsible for popularizing the wig-wearing culture that has permeated African hairstyle culture.
Many Eurocentric Egyptologist are just too ready to dismiss an obviously African cultural marker of the ancient Egyptians as a borrowed tradition from Nubians. That is utterly inaccurate. In fact, the ancient Egyptians wore more elaborate wigs that Nubians. It is also probable that the Nubians borrowed wig-wearing culture from the Egyptians.
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quote:Originally posted by kembu: Actually, it is a misnomer. The wig is actually Egyptian in origin. In fact, ancient Egyptians were primarily responsible for popularizing the wig-wearing culture that has permeated African hairstyle culture.
Many Eurocentric Egyptologist are just too ready to dismiss an obviously African cultural marker of the ancient Egyptians as a borrowed tradition from Nubians. That is utterly inaccurate. In fact, the ancient Egyptians wore more elaborate wigs that Nubians. It is also probable that the Nubians borrowed wig-wearing culture from the Egyptians.
I agree with everything you say except that Egyptians were responsible for wig customs in Africa. This sounds diffussionistic. The African custom of wearing wigs is just African not only Egyptian. Diop tried to connect the West African tradition of wearing wigs to Egypt when the similarity is actually due to common origin not Egyptian origin.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Again, folks get lost in the quagmire of western terminologies that breed confusion.
The idea of the Nubian wig itself is essentially western.
You will not find any primary source evidence in mdw ntr saying - I am Egyptian, but I am wearing a "Nubian" wig.
Where Kembu is correct is in noting that we are really discussing and African people wearing a distinctive African hair-piece-style, variations of which are not uncommon throughout Africa.
Nefertiti also frequently wore 'so called nubian' hairstyles. - per J. Flectcher, Search for Nefertiti.
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: Again, folks get lost in the quagmire of western terminologies that breed confusion.
The idea of the Nubian wig itself is essentially western.
Thought Writes:
Excellent observation Rasol. A similar assumption is developed in the following recent article in Discovery Online. Their implication is that somehow the Egyptian "Pharoahs" were NOT Black in any reasonable evaluation....
Thought Posts:
Nubia's Black Pharaohs Will a lost coronation temple reveal how the ancient Nubians rose up and seized the throne of the mighty Egyptians? By Michael McRae Photography by Ben Lowy DISCOVER Vol. 26 No. 12 | December 2005 | Anthropology
On a cloudless morning in northern Sudan, the first rays of the sun cast a glow on Jebel Barkal, a small tabletop mountain perched near the Nile River. Jebel Barkal rises barely 320 feet above the surrounding desert but is distinguished by one prominent feature: a pinnacle jutting out from its southwestern cliff face. If your imagination is keen enough, the isolated butte might resemble a crown or an altar, and the pinnacle an unfinished colossal statue—perhaps a rearing serpent, its body poised to strike.
Striding toward an excavation near the base of the pinnacle, archaeologist Tim Kendall pauses momentarily to admire what he calls the "little mountain with big secrets." Thousands of years ago, Jebel Barkal and Napata, the town that grew up around it, served as the spiritual center of ancient Nubia, one of Africa's earliest civilizations. The mountain was also considered a holy site by neighboring Egypt, whose pharaohs plundered and tyrannized Nubia for 400 years.
But in the eighth century B.C., Nubia turned the tables on its former colonizers. Its armies marched 700 miles north from Jebel Barkal to Thebes, the spiritual capital of Egypt. There the Nubian king Piye became the first of a succession of five "black pharaohs" who ruled Egypt for six decades with the blessing of the Egyptian priesthood. What happened? asks Kendall. How did the Nubians, overrun by Egypt for centuries, crush their colonizers? And why did the priests of Thebes decide the black pharaohs had a mandate from heaven? Kendall has been searching for those answers for 20 years. They can be revealed, he believes, by cracking a code of geomorphological symbols at Jebel Barkal and by parsing hieroglyphic texts that refer to the mountain as Dju-wa'ab, or "Pure Mountain." "I feel as if I'm deciphering a mythological puzzle," Kendall says. "It's a real mystery story."
quote:And why did the priests of Thebes decide the black pharaohs had a mandate from heaven? Kendall has been searching for those answers for 20 years. They can be revealed, he believes, by cracking a code of geomorphological symbols at Jebel Barkal and by parsing hieroglyphic texts that refer to the mountain as Dju-wa'ab, or "Pure Mountain." "I feel as if I'm deciphering a mythological puzzle," Kendall says. "It's a real mystery story."
A mystery of the their own making, forever to remain a mystery as long as Eurocentrists keep themselves [and their passive receptical pupils] in a permanent state of confusion.
quote:Originally posted by Mazigh: this person atop is between brown and black, but neither his mouth nor nose is stereo-typic for the blacks.
Just look at his image and you will no doubt conclude that he is indeed African. What else? Arab? Indian? German? Give me a break.
my two year old cousin could easily identify that Tut bust as black or African. it looks like many other black Americans i know, but i've never seen an Arab, European, or Asian who looked like that.
a black person doesn't have to have the West African features (flat nose, big lips) to be black. the features on that bust are completely in range of features that can be seen on modern day Ethiopians.
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Every bust of Tut is that of a black person, how can people point to the features and say that this means he was not black, many east africans and also some West africans have these same features. So I don't know how their can be a debate about king Tut, He was Black anyone who says otherwise is blind or ignorant. Walk is right when she says Arabs,Europeans, and asians don't look like the Tut bust. It is only because of ignorance why there is even a debate. How can someone look at a black person and say he is not black?
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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because some people apparently think that if someone doesn't look Senegalese or Nigerian that they aren't black that right there disables all black Americans from the title "black", as well as North and East Africans.
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On another board I got in a debate with a White Supremacist about the Ancient Egyptians who he insisted were Arabs, after seeing several images he concluded that they were dark skinned Arabs.
Upon seeing Tut he said he doesn't look Black but instead Indian and believed East Africans like Iman were of mixed race. A sorry advocate for the "True Negro Myth".
Some of these same people will insist that Salma Hayek is White.
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posted
The denial of the bust is stupid enough, but getting back to less simpleton problems, Rasol and Thought raise a good point about the culture.
Western scholars create their own "mysteries" about the Egyptians when they can't figure out how Theban priests could "accept black pharoahs" and such. The whole idea of the "Nubian" wig or the "round" (afro) wig the Egyptians wear is just another form of denial that has permeated the study of Egypt for centuries now.
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quote:Originally posted by Mansa Musa: On another board I got in a debate with a White Supremacist about the Ancient Egyptians who he insisted were Arabs, after seeing several images he concluded that they were dark skinned Arabs.
Upon seeing Tut he said he doesn't look Black but instead Indian and believed East Africans like Iman were of mixed race. A sorry advocate for the "True Negro Myth".
Some of these same people will insist that Salma Hayek is White.
he's clearly biased. Arabs have totally distinct features from Tut and the Ancient Egyptians. plus many Egyptians appeared to have kinky hair, which isn't an Arab trait.
Salma Hayek is half Mexican, half Lebanese. i don't think she looks white. caucasian yes, but not white.
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Indeed, Salma herself identifies as biracial it is just an example of their double standards and ignorance. Some of them like to claim her because they think she is hot.
On the subject of this thread has anyone read this Keita article (more of a rhetorical question) and have the ability to provide it?
"Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993)
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quote:Originally posted by Mansa Musa: On the subject of this thread has anyone read this Keita article (more of a rhetorical question) and have the ability to provide it?
"Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993)
Thought Writes:
Yes, I have this study, however, I do not have this study in an electronic format. I certainly can answer any questions you may have in this regard. Thanks.
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Either you are of Black African descent or you are not.
Haile Berry is considered "Black" though, one of her parents is Caucasian.
All of this is a matter of social context. People of mixed-ancestry could be called 'black' on account of having black ancestry. There are many peoples in North Africa that might be classified as 'black' socially even though they may not like that label.
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In his book, The Destruction of Black Civilization, black scholar, Chancellor Williams informs us that history has proven that a number of tactics were employed by anthropologists to blot out black accomplishments. Here is a list of Williams' observations about how anthropologists chose to operate:
1. "Ignore or refuse to publish any facts of African history" that would not support their racial theories.
2. "Create a religious and 'scientific' doctrine" to ease the white conscience for oppressing and enslaving African people.
3. "Flood the world with hastily thrown together African 'histories'" that contain European perspectives only.
4. "Start renaming people and places. Replace African names of persons, places, and things with Arabic and European names." This will disguise their true black identity.
5. Change the criteria for defining race. For example, one drop of Negro blood in America makes you a Negro, no matter how light your skin. When reporting ancient history, reverse the standard. Make one drop of white blood render someone a Caucasian no matter how dark the skin. (Test this criteria during the "riding-at-the-back-of the-bus" era of the South during the 1940s in the USA. Be assured that any of the Pharaoh's of Egypt, especially up to and including the 25th Dynasty, would have been required to sit at the back of the bus.)
6. When black participation in civilization is so obvious your best schemes can't hide it, find a way to attribute the success to outside white influence.
7. When all the ancient historians contradict your theory, seek to discredit them.
-------------------- "Pluto sits out there, but still just a touch of the Sun moves her." Posts: 142 | Registered: Oct 2005
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The Sudroid and Africoid peoples are also genetically closely related. The genetic similarities between Africans and Sudrics include:
Glucose-6-Phosphate dehydrogenase deficiency Gene for sickle-cell anemia is common Enzymes providing malaria resistance are present
The Kolarians (Indo-Australoids) share many genetic similarities with the Australoids and Oceanic Negroids. Genetic similarities of the Kolarians with the Australoids and Oceanic Negroids include :
Glucose-6-Phosphate dehydrogenase deficiency and alcohol intolerance A large ratio of B type blood Rarity of Rhesus negative Rarity of P2 gene Rarity of A type, and especially A2 Shovel-shaped incisors are common Low bi-zygomatic diameter
In addition, the hair is frequently reddish to blonde in childhood in the case of Australoid Blackfellows, Dravidians and Kolarians.
Genetic Studies of mtDNA of Dravidians in Andhra displayed a close similarity with African populations.
DESCENDANTS OF ORIGINAL INDIAN POPULATION(DRAVIDIANS)...
HOW BUDDHA WAS ORIGINALLY PORTRAYED IN INDIA...
-------------------- "Pluto sits out there, but still just a touch of the Sun moves her." Posts: 142 | Registered: Oct 2005
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One of the foremost tasks for contemporary African centered scholars is to provide an historical overview of the global African community. This is a critical task that must be completed in its entirety. This includes the history, culture and present condition of African people both at home and abroad. We are already aware, it should be pointed out, based on recent scientific studies of DNA, that modern humanity originated in Africa, that African people are the world's aboriginal people and that all modern humans can ultimately trace their ancestral roots back to Africa. If not for the primordial migrations of early African people, humanity would have remained physically Africoid, and the rest of the world outside of the African continent absent of human life. This is our starting point.
Since the first modern humans (Homo sapiens sapiens) were of African birth, the African presence globally can be demonstrated through the history of the Black populations that have inhabited the world within the span of recent humanity. Not only are African people the aboriginal people of the planet, however, there is abundant evidence to show that Black people created and sustained many of the world's earliest and most enduring civilizations. Such was the case in India.
The questions we pose here are simply these: Who are the African people of India? What is their significance in the annals of history? Precisely what have they done and what are they doing now? These are extremely serious questions that warrant serious and fundamental answers. This series of articles, "The African Presence in India: An Historical Overview," is designed to provide some of those answers.
Exceptionally valuable writings reflecting close relationships between Africa and early India have existed for more than two thousand years. In the first century B.C.E., for example, the famous Greek historian Diodorus Siculus penned that, "From Ethiopia he (Osiris) passed through Arabia, bordering upon the Red Sea as far as India.... He built many cities in India, one of which he called Nysa, willing to have remembrance of that (Nysa) in Egypt, where he was brought up."
Another important writer from antiquity, Apollonius of Tyana, who is said to have visited India near the end of the first century C.E., was convinced that "The Ethiopians are colonists sent from India, who follow their forefathers in matters of wisdom." The literary work of the early Christian writer Eusebius preserves the tradition that, "In the reign of Amenophis III [the mighty Dynasty XVIII Egyptian king] a body of Ethiopians migrated from the country about the Indus, and settled in the valley of the Nile." And still another document from ancient times, the Itinerarium Alexandri, says that "India, taken as a whole, beginning from the north and embracing what of it is subject to Persia, is a continuation of Egypt and the Ethiopians."
In Greater India, more than a thousand years before the foundations of Greece and Rome, proud and industrious Black men and women known as Dravidians erected a powerful civilization. We are referring here to the Indus Valley civilization- -India's earliest high-culture, with major cities spread out along the course of the Indus River. The Indus Valley civilization was at its height from about 2200 B.C.E. to 1700 B.C.E. This phase of its history is called the Harappan, the name being derived from Harappa, one of the earliest known Indus Valley cities.
In 1922, about 350 miles northeast of Harappa, another large Indus city, Mohenjo-daro (the Mound of the Dead) was identified. Mohenjo-daro and Harappa were apparently the chief administrative centers of the Indus Valley complex, and since their identification, several additional cities, including Chanhu-daro, Kalibangan, Quetta and Lothal have been excavated.
The Indus cities possessed multiple level houses enhanced by sophisticated wells, drainage systems and bathrooms with flushing toilets. A recognized scholar on the Indus Valley civilization, Dr. Walter Fairservis, states that the "Harappans cultivated cotton and perhaps rice, domesticated the chicken and may have invented the game of chess and one of the two great early sources of nonmuscle power: the windmill."
The decline and fall of the Indus Valley civilization has been linked to several factors, the most important of which were the increasingly frequent incursions of the White people known in history as Aryans--violent Indo-European tribes initially from central Eurasia and later Iran. Indeed, the name Iran means the "land of the Aryan."
It is safe to say that when we speak of the Dravidians as a people we are speaking of the living descendants of the Harappan people of the ancient Indus Valley who were pushed into South India as the result of the Aryan invasions. This is certainly consistent with Dravidian traditions which recall flourishing cities that were either lost or destroyed in antiquity. The term "Dravidian," however, encompasses both an ethnic group and a linguistic group. The ethnic group is characterized by straight to wavy hair textures, combined with Africoid physical features. In reference to this Dr. Cheikh Anta Diop stated that:
"There are two well-defined Black races: one has a black skin and woolly hair; the other also has black skin, often exceptionally black, with straight hair, aquiline nose, thin lips, an acute cheekbone angle. We find a prototype of this race in India: the Dravidian. It is also known that certain Nubians likewise belong to the same Negro type...Thus, it is inexact, anti-scientific, to do anthropological research, encounter a Dravidian type, and then conclude that the Negro type is absent."
Dravidian, in addition to its ethnic component, however, is an important family of languages spoken by more than a hundred million people, primarily in South India. These languages include Tamil (the largest element), Kannada, Malayalam (from which the name of the Asian country Malaya is derived), Telegu and Tulu. The term "Dravidian" itself is apparently an Aryan corruption of Tamil.
From at least the third century C.E. three major Dravidian kingdoms existed in South India: the kingdoms of Pandya, Chera and Chola. Pandya was the southernmost Dravidian kingdom. The major city of Pandya was Madurai, the location of the famous chapel of the Tamil Sangam (Academy). The Sangam, of which there were three, was initiated by a body of forty-eight exceptionally learned scholars who established standards over all literary productions. The Pandyan rulers received these intellectuals with lavish honors.
It is also important to note that in the kingdom of the Pandyas women seem to have enjoyed a high status. This is the exact opposite of the regions of India where the Whites ruled. In these lands of Aryan domination it is said that a woman was never independent. "When she is a child she belongs to her father. As an adult when she marries she belongs to her husband. If she outlives her husband she belongs to her sons." An early queen of the Pandyas, on the other hand, for example, is credited with controlling an army of 500 elephants, 4,000 cavalry and 13,000 infantry.
In 1288 and again in 1293 the Venetian traveler Marco Polo visited the Pandyan kingdom and left a vivid description of the land and its people. Polo exclaimed that:
"The darkest man is here the most highly esteemed and considered better than the others who are not so dark. Let me add that in very truth these people portray and depict their gods and their idols black and their devils white as snow. For they say that God and all the saints are black and the devils are all white. That is why they portray them as I have described."
To the northwest of Pandya was the kingdom of Chera (present-day Kerala). Northwest of Pandya lay the kingdom of Chola, said to be the place where Saint Thomas the Apostle was buried. The same Marco Polo who visited Pandya referred to Chola as "the best province and the most refined in all India."
The Dravidians were an unusually advanced seafaring people, with the Cholas, in particular, distinguishing themselves amongst the dominant maritime powers of their era. Through its ports, the great kings of Chola traded with Ethiopia and Somalia, Iran and Arabia, Combodia and China, Sumatra and Sri Lanka, exporting spices and camphor, ebony and ivory, quality textiles and precious jewels.
It seems readily apparent that the Dravidian kingdoms and the Dravidian people were quite well known internationally. When Augustus became head of the Roman world, for example, the Dravidian kingdoms sent him a congratulatory embassy. Dravidian poets describe Roman ships, which carried bodyguards of archers to ward off pirates, while the Dravidian kings themselves employed bodyguards of Roman soldiers. In respect to the ancient East, at least one author has identified a Dravidian presence in the Philippines, noting that: "From India came civilized Indians, the Dravidians from whom the savage Aryans learned. They began at least 500 BC and soon controlled the coast."
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Beanpie, this is all inaccurate stuff, especially the quote from Diop.
Yes, the indigenous populations of India, especially those in the south are black but they are NOT African. They are Asian!
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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"Yes, the indigenous populations of India, especially those in the south are black but they are NOT African. They are Asian!" Exactly.
And does anyone still have evidence that the Indo-European language was spoken initially by the so called Caucasian race? The is the "Caucasian languages", spoken by the Chechen. Why would they name those tongues as "Caucasian", but not the Indo-European family? There is also the Finno-Ugric language spoken by whites.
I don't believe that Indo-European languages were initially spoken by whites. I believe that it existed alongside the Dravidian communities and I will have to do a bit of my independent research in the upcoming holidays.
Posts: 58 | From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2005
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^^ignoring the Indian stuff, you can look back and see the list of cultural similarities.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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The Sudroid and Africoid peoples are also genetically closely related. The genetic similarities between Africans and Sudrics include:
Glucose-6-Phosphate dehydrogenase deficiency Gene for sickle-cell anemia is common Enzymes providing malaria resistance are present
Not really, this is a common misnomer.
Sickle cell tends to be misunderstood most often by two different ideology groups.
1) those who need to assert the 'racial purity' of southern europe.
2) those who want to tie Black skin all around the world into a single 'race typology'.
I have found that you can keep showing both of these groups that they are wrong - and of course they can't [debate] change the facts...but they can of course ignore facts that interfere with ethnocentric fantasies.
A shame ignorance still lingers the world about who the ancient egyptians really were.
He serenely stares across the ages challenging Eurocentric passers by of the last 2 centuries with his "negroid" facial features. The Great Sphinx is the most enduring and I believe the most profound monument to mankind.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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And the FACTS of this thread still stand! Unless someone wants to challenge them. Americanpatriot?? LMAOPosts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
that right there disables all black Americans from the title "black", as well as North and East Africans.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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