posted
SESOSTRIS THE GREAT, THE EGYPTIAN HERCULES.
By Samuel David Ewing
Pg.225. "Eratosthenes ( ? ) ( From Syncellus ) App.II Fr. 39 King of Thebes 34. The thirty fourth King of Thebes was Sistosichermes, "Valiant Heracles," ( Sistosis or Sesortosis, "Valiant Hermes or Heracles" ), for 55 years. Anno Mundi 3791." From Manetho, With An English Translation By W.G. Waddell, published by Harvard University Press , London 1940, 1948.
Sesostris the Great's name has been translated in various ways from the Greek, Roman, and English translations as Senusret I, Senwosret I, Sistosis, Sesortosis, Sesoothis, and Sen-Wos- Ret I. Sen-Wos-Ret means "son of Wosret." Wosret is the goddess who was known as a form of Hathor in Egypt. Wosret ruled over precious metals, wealth, mines, and treasures. The ancient black African ruler, Sen-Wos-Ret I knew Her to be his patron deity during his successful military campaigns, and she was the motivating ideal behind his mission to conquer the entire world. With that in mind I will now list some of his accomplishments: 1. He used prisoners of war for an extensive building projects throughout Egypt. 2. He was worshiped as a living god during the 12th Dynasty of Egypt. 3. Sen-Wos- Ret I began a series of victorious military expeditions against the Asiatics, Libyans, and various nomads ( Bedouins ) who threatened the people of Egypt. He became ruler of Egypt in 1971 B.C. and ruled until 1928 B.C. 4. He enforced loyalty and discipline in Egypt, giving the governors responsibility for the management of the nomes ( towns ). 5. He was the first Egyptian king to rule over Ethiopia, including lower Nubia, and use its gold mines to add to the empires wealth. 6. Strabo, XVII reports that Sen-Wos-Ret I had built a canal starting from the Nile River to the Red Sea. 7. He ordered the rebuilding of the Temple of Amen at Ipet-sut ( Karnak ) in stone. 8. He erected red granite obelisks to be placed at Heliopolis ( Northern Anu ). 9. He led a great expedition to Punt on the Somali Coast. 10. He had built the largest pyramid in the history of the Middle Kingdom Period of Egypt's history. The pyramid was 352 ft. tall. 11. He protected Egypt's borders by winning victories in a succession of military conquests to the South to gain the benefits of the economic mechanisms in Lower Nubia and to continue trading with the nations of West Asia. 12. The ancient Greeks called him "Heracles Kharops" ( Heracles the Flashing-Eyed ), "Kekrops", and "Sistosichermes Valiant Hercules." He founded and built Athens, Greece, considered to be the greatest center of culture, academics, art, and the sciences in ancient Greece. This city is credited to being the catalyst for European - based civilization ( the West ) and originated with the black king Sen-Wos- Ret I known as Heracles Kharops. 13. He was the second ruler of the 12th Dynasty, he ruled for 34 years, and built 13 fortresses from Egypt to the Second Cataract. He made use of the harvest from Wadi Hammamat for food supplies. 14. He completed the construction of the Wall Of Princes. He founded colonies in the areas of the Danube River, the Black Sea, Strabo, Book III records that Sen-Wos- Ret I conquered Palestine, Syria, Mesopotamia, Armenia, Iberia, Colchis, and ancient Hindu writings record his invasion of India. Numerous sources indicate that he was the first man to conquer the entire world centuries before Alexander the Great was born, that this has been a point of controversy among scholars and archaeologist, however evidence is being discovered that verifies the claims of ancient writers.
Posts: 236 | From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Lion!: SESOSTRIS THE GREAT, THE EGYPTIAN HERCULES.
By Samuel David Ewing
Pg.225. "Eratosthenes ( ? ) ( From Syncellus ) App.II Fr. 39 King of Thebes 34. The thirty fourth King of Thebes was Sistosichermes, "Valiant Heracles," ( Sistosis or Sesortosis, "Valiant Hermes or Heracles" ), for 55 years. Anno Mundi 3791." From Manetho, With An English Translation By W.G. Waddell, published by Harvard University Press , London 1940, 1948.
Sesostris the Great's name has been translated in various ways from the Greek, Roman, and English translations as Senusret I, Senwosret I, Sistosis, Sesortosis, Sesoothis, and Sen-Wos- Ret I. Sen-Wos-Ret means "son of Wosret." Wosret is the goddess who was known as a form of Hathor in Egypt. Wosret ruled over precious metals, wealth, mines, and treasures. The ancient black African ruler, Sen-Wos-Ret I knew Her to be his patron deity during his successful military campaigns, and she was the motivating ideal behind his mission to conquer the entire world. With that in mind I will now list some of his accomplishments: 1. He used prisoners of war for an extensive building projects throughout Egypt. 2. He was worshiped as a living god during the 12th Dynasty of Egypt. 3. Sen-Wos- Ret I began a series of victorious military expeditions against the Asiatics, Libyans, and various nomads ( Bedouins ) who threatened the people of Egypt. He became ruler of Egypt in 1971 B.C. and ruled until 1928 B.C. 4. He enforced loyalty and discipline in Egypt, giving the governors responsibility for the management of the nomes ( towns ). 5. He was the first Egyptian king to rule over Ethiopia, including lower Nubia, and use its gold mines to add to the empires wealth. 6. Strabo, XVII reports that Sen-Wos-Ret I had built a canal starting from the Nile River to the Red Sea. 7. He ordered the rebuilding of the Temple of Amen at Ipet-sut ( Karnak ) in stone. 8. He erected red granite obelisks to be placed at Heliopolis ( Northern Anu ). 9. He led a great expedition to Punt on the Somali Coast. 10. He had built the largest pyramid in the history of the Middle Kingdom Period of Egypt's history. The pyramid was 352 ft. tall. 11. He protected Egypt's borders by winning victories in a succession of military conquests to the South to gain the benefits of the economic mechanisms in Lower Nubia and to continue trading with the nations of West Asia. 12. The ancient Greeks called him "Heracles Kharops" ( Heracles the Flashing-Eyed ), "Kekrops", and "Sistosichermes Valiant Hercules." He founded and built Athens, Greece, considered to be the greatest center of culture, academics, art, and the sciences in ancient Greece. This city is credited to being the catalyst for European - based civilization ( the West ) and originated with the black king Sen-Wos- Ret I known as Heracles Kharops. 13. He was the second ruler of the 12th Dynasty, he ruled for 34 years, and built 13 fortresses from Egypt to the Second Cataract. He made use of the harvest from Wadi Hammamat for food supplies. 14. He completed the construction of the Wall Of Princes. He founded colonies in the areas of the Danube River, the Black Sea, Strabo, Book III records that Sen-Wos- Ret I conquered Palestine, Syria, Mesopotamia, Armenia, Iberia, Colchis, and ancient Hindu writings record his invasion of India. Numerous sources indicate that he was the first man to conquer the entire world centuries before Alexander the Great was born, that this has been a point of controversy among scholars and archaeologist, however evidence is being discovered that verifies the claims of ancient writers.
quote:Originally posted by Lion!: SESOSTRIS THE GREAT, THE EGYPTIAN HERCULES.
By Samuel David Ewing
Pg.225. "Eratosthenes ( ? ) ( From Syncellus ) App.II Fr. 39 King of Thebes 34. The thirty fourth King of Thebes was Sistosichermes, "Valiant Heracles," ( Sistosis or Sesortosis, "Valiant Hermes or Heracles" ), for 55 years. Anno Mundi 3791." From Manetho, With An English Translation By W.G. Waddell, published by Harvard University Press , London 1940, 1948.
Sesostris the Great's name has been translated in various ways from the Greek, Roman, and English translations as Senusret I, Senwosret I, Sistosis, Sesortosis, Sesoothis, and Sen-Wos- Ret I. Sen-Wos-Ret means "son of Wosret." Wosret is the goddess who was known as a form of Hathor in Egypt. Wosret ruled over precious metals, wealth, mines, and treasures. The ancient black African ruler, Sen-Wos-Ret I knew Her to be his patron deity during his successful military campaigns, and she was the motivating ideal behind his mission to conquer the entire world. With that in mind I will now list some of his accomplishments: 1. He used prisoners of war for an extensive building projects throughout Egypt. 2. He was worshiped as a living god during the 12th Dynasty of Egypt. 3. Sen-Wos- Ret I began a series of victorious military expeditions against the Asiatics, Libyans, and various nomads ( Bedouins ) who threatened the people of Egypt. He became ruler of Egypt in 1971 B.C. and ruled until 1928 B.C. 4. He enforced loyalty and discipline in Egypt, giving the governors responsibility for the management of the nomes ( towns ). 5. He was the first Egyptian king to rule over Ethiopia, including lower Nubia, and use its gold mines to add to the empires wealth. 6. Strabo, XVII reports that Sen-Wos-Ret I had built a canal starting from the Nile River to the Red Sea. 7. He ordered the rebuilding of the Temple of Amen at Ipet-sut ( Karnak ) in stone. 8. He erected red granite obelisks to be placed at Heliopolis ( Northern Anu ). 9. He led a great expedition to Punt on the Somali Coast. 10. He had built the largest pyramid in the history of the Middle Kingdom Period of Egypt's history. The pyramid was 352 ft. tall. 11. He protected Egypt's borders by winning victories in a succession of military conquests to the South to gain the benefits of the economic mechanisms in Lower Nubia and to continue trading with the nations of West Asia. 12. The ancient Greeks called him "Heracles Kharops" ( Heracles the Flashing-Eyed ), "Kekrops", and "Sistosichermes Valiant Hercules." He founded and built Athens, Greece, considered to be the greatest center of culture, academics, art, and the sciences in ancient Greece. This city is credited to being the catalyst for European - based civilization ( the West ) and originated with the black king Sen-Wos- Ret I known as Heracles Kharops. 13. He was the second ruler of the 12th Dynasty, he ruled for 34 years, and built 13 fortresses from Egypt to the Second Cataract. He made use of the harvest from Wadi Hammamat for food supplies. 14. He completed the construction of the Wall Of Princes. He founded colonies in the areas of the Danube River, the Black Sea, Strabo, Book III records that Sen-Wos- Ret I conquered Palestine, Syria, Mesopotamia, Armenia, Iberia, Colchis, and ancient Hindu writings record his invasion of India. Numerous sources indicate that he was the first man to conquer the entire world centuries before Alexander the Great was born, that this has been a point of controversy among scholars and archaeologist, however evidence is being discovered that verifies the claims of ancient writers.
Posts: 318 | From: PA. USA | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Keins: [QB] Interesting!
Martin Bernal author of Black Athena Vol. II, The Afroasiatic Roots Of Classical Civilization, Copyright 1991, published by Rutgers University Press, New Brunswick, New Jersey, pg. 120, points to the correlation between what the ancient Greeks said about Heracles ( Hercules ) and the names of certain pharoahs of Egypt: "In both Thespiai and Thisbe, as well as at Koroneia, Herakles was known as Kharops, Herakles Kharops, or more often Kharops Herakles. The epithet would seem to mean 'flashing-eyed'. However another possibility is that the name is related to Kekrops the founder of Athens, who also had a shrine at Haliartos. Kekrops will be discussed further in Volume 3 but here it is sufficient to say that I shall argue that the name may be related HprK3R~, H ~ hpr R~, or H ~ k3wR~, the prenomena of Senwosres I, II, III. Thus, there are some possible additional associations of the Boiotian Herakles to the 12th Dynasty Egypt". The throne name of Senwosret III is Kha-kau-Re, of Senwosret I is Kheper-ka-Re, and Senwosret II is Kha-kheper-Re. The resemblance to the Greek Kekrops speaks for itself. It was common in ancient Greek language that Egyptian names and words were often transliterated as one combined word and or abbreviated. Diodorus Siculus records that the ancient Egyptians maintain that Kekrops was an Egyptian ruler who founded Athens for colonization.
Posts: 236 | From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Lion!: Djehuti of IndoChina
LOL I'm not of 'Indo-Chinese' heritage, and I'm surprise you of all people would use such a term that is a hangover from European colonial days.
quote:Why not address the arguments set out in the post. Challenge the sources, debunk the authority, weaken the cogency if you can. The Lion dares you...
You may dare me all you want but I refuse to waste my time and energies trying to refute the self-refutable. There is really nothing to challenge since most of what you say cannot even stand on its own.
quote:The Lion! can feel your hostility but the Lion! did no wrong. The Lion! only sought to enlighten ignorance, and hush foolishness when it got arrogant.
The Lion!
I have no hostility at all. If anything I feel humored by your responses. Foolishness and blind arrogance is all we get from you instead of facts.
quote:The truth may be an offense, but it is not a crime!
The truth is never an offense to me, but apparently you are blind to the fact that much of what you say isn't truth but ridiculous nonsense! Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Do you have the complete quote from Didorus Siculus about Sesotris founding Athens? Also how dependable is Didorus Siculus for ancient Egyptian history? Did he know Mdu ntr or talk to the priests of ancient Egypt? Does Manetho support Didorus Siculus assertions?
This is all I ask.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: Do you have the complete quote from Didorus Siculus about Sesotris founding Athens?
Lion! writes:
What relevance is this question to the fact that it is universally acknowledge that the ancient Athenians had a view of themselves as a former Egyptian colony?
Ancient writers like Homer, Solon, Pythagoras, Socrates, Diodorus Siculus, Herodotus, Heliodotus, Tacitus, all believed that ancient Egypt had a founding influence on ancient Greece. Would you seriously doubt the veracity of the eye witness?
quote: Also how dependable is Didorus Siculus for ancient Egyptian history? Did he know Mdu ntr or talk to the priests of ancient Egypt? Does Manetho support Didorus Siculus assertions?
Lion! writes:
You and me do not know whether he spoke or read Mdu ntr. But we know he saw the ancient Greeks, saw their culture, saw them at work and at play. I would sooner give him credence than the pale-skin supremaciest agenda inspired archealogical mis-interpretations.
quote:This is all I ask.
Lion! writes:
I trust this helps.
The Lion!
Posts: 236 | From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Lion!: What relevance is this question to the fact that it is universally acknowledge that the ancient Athenians had a view of themselves as a former Egyptian colony?
It is very relevant to have the entirety of Diodorus' sayings, and where have the Athenians ever acknowledged that they were a colony of Egypt?!!
Better yet, where in the Egyptians' own history did they say that they colonized Greece??
quote:Ancient writers like Homer, Solon, Pythagoras, Socrates, Diodorus Siculus, Herodotus, Heliodotus, Tacitus, all believed that ancient Egypt had a founding influence on ancient Greece. Would you seriously doubt the veracity of the eye witness?
Where have all of these peoples said that ancient Greece was the product of Egypt?? And what do you mean by "eyewitness"; are you suggesting that all of these people you mentioned witnessed the history of their country being founded by Egyptian colonists??
quote:Lion! writes:
You and me do not know whether he spoke or read Mdu ntr. But we know he saw the ancient Greeks, saw their culture, saw them at work and at play. I would sooner give him credence than the pale-skin supremaciest agenda inspired archealogical mis-interpretations.
Perhaps, but was the guy an expert at Egyptian history and culture for him to say that Geek culture is a descendant of it?? What aspects of Egyptian culture do you attribute to those of the Greeks??
quote:Lion! writes:
I trust this helps.
The Lion!
Uh, no it doesn't! Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: Do you have the complete quote from Didorus Siculus about Sesotris founding Athens?
Lion! writes:
What relevance is this question to the fact that it is universally acknowledge that the ancient Athenians had a view of themselves as a former Egyptian colony?
Ancient writers like Homer, Solon, Pythagoras, Socrates, Diodorus Siculus, Herodotus, Heliodotus, Tacitus, all believed that ancient Egypt had a founding influence on ancient Greece. Would you seriously doubt the veracity of the eye witness?
It's releavant simply because we don't have any Athenians living and breathing and Didodorus Siculus is out only means of interpretation. Also the fact that Diodorus Siculus lived around the Roman era and not within the time frame when Athens was first founded.
All the other writers you cited lived well after the inception of Athens and I would like also direct quotes from each of them verifying your claims.
quote:Lion! writes:
You and me do not know whether he spoke or read Mdu ntr. But we know he saw the ancient Greeks, saw their culture, saw them at work and at play. I would sooner give him credence than the pale-skin supremaciest agenda inspired archealogical mis-interpretations.
You ignored my mention of Manetho who was an Egyptian priest that wrote down the histories of the various Egyptian dyansties from the beginning to the end of the dyansties. This is why I asked you wheather Manetho validates Didorus claims or rejects him. Didorus most likely did not read mdu ntr because he was not in the preisthood and lived during the Roman era.
Again your calling reserchers ''pale-skin'' supremist is poisoning the well. It does not make any differences to me the hue of the resercher but the data.
quote:Lion! writes:
I trust this helps.
The Lion!
Unfortunately, it doesn't for I asked for direct quotes from Didorus Siculus and other classical historians. Please when you make claims reference them with direct quotes.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: [QUOTE]Unfortunately, it doesn't for I asked for direct quotes from Didorus Siculus and other classical historians. Please when you make claims reference them with direct quotes.
Lion! writes:
Spoon feeding will not be permitted. Exert yourself a bit and follow up on my sources. They are classical sources available to any serious student. Read them first, then come back if you still have issues.
The Lion!
Posts: 236 | From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2005
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Spoon feeding will not be permitted. Exert yourself a bit and follow up on my sources. They are classical sources available to any serious student. Read them first, then come back if you still have issues.
The Lion!
The burden of proof is on you to prove your case,and not for me to look up every time wheather you cited Diodorus Siculus correcty. You initially claimed that Diodorus Siculus claimed that Athenians believed they were an Egyptian colony but never directly quoted your sources.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I find it interesting that 'Lion' would continue to argue and entertain his own fancies of black African civilization-- Greece, Arabia, India...
Yet whenever a real discourse on black African culture is presented, like the magic practices of Egyptians, he makes no contributions and is silent!
What gives?
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:I find it interesting that 'Lion' would continue to argue and entertain his own fancies of black African civilization-- Greece, Arabia, India...
Yet whenever a real discourse on black African culture is presented, like the magic practices of Egyptians, he makes no contributions and is silent!
What gives?
That's his/her perogative to which they chose to respond to the topic. The key issue on this thread is about Sesotris being identified with Kekrops and founding Athens Greece. I might say that the following you stated Djehuti is a non-sequitir.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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That's his/her perogative to which they chose to respond to the topic. The key issue on this thread is about Sesotris being identified with Kekrops and founding Athens Greece. I might say that the following you stated Djehuti is a non-sequitir.
I suppose so, but you are right. On this thread, I am still waiting on Lion to give any evidence of his supposed Egyptian colonization of Greece.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Lion!: ....I would sooner give him credence than the **pale-skin** supremaciest agenda....
Thought Writes:
Lion, I would ask that you not make posts like this again on this forum.
This is a overtly racist comment. It has no place on any civilized forum. It puts a "black-eye" on this forum, this discourse and the people involved therein. I am not a racist and will not allow my reputation to be stained through this sort of association.
Ausar, I challenge you to be more consistent in your application of moderation. A psuedo-Black racist is just as bad as a white racist.
You **two** need to clean up this act!!!!
Posts: 2720 | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Lion!: ....I would sooner give him credence than the **pale-skin** supremaciest agenda....
Thought Writes:
Lion, I would ask that you not make posts like this again on this forum.
This is a overtly racist comment. It has no place on any civilized forum. It puts a "black-eye" on this forum, this discourse and the people involved therein. I am not a racist and will not allow my reputation to be stained through this sort of association.
Ausar, I challenge you to be more consistent in your application of moderation. A psuedo-Black racist is just as bad as a white racist.
You **two** need to clean up this act!!!!
Thought
There are no white skinned people truthfully and scientifically speaking. There are luciderms or paleskin people. What is your offense?
Since when is the reference to pale-skin a racist term? Since when?! Look up the terms, look up the terms in your Medical Dictionary I would recommend Merck Manual for you, do some basic reading into biology, check the encyclopeadia Britanicca and clear your confusion regarding my use of the term pale skin.
So when the first nations called the Europeans pale face, they were being racist. And when the Greeks called the Ta Setians Ethiopians (burnt face) they were being racist. You are just being self gratuitious.
Pale face: white People -- See Webster's New World Dictionary, Edited by Victoria Nuefeldt 1995.
There are no white people in correct grammar. There are only pale skin people1
As for being a racist, you are way off your mark. I stand for one love one world. Yet I love the black the most because charity begins at home.
You are mad because the Lion!'s roar is currently causing you intellectual headache. Your weak premises, and mindless telelogical posturings have been shattered by innovative thinking.
Something tells me you are just totally flabbergastered by the Lion!'s appearance on this forum. First you asked Ausar to shut down a much topical issue I posted on this forum (What white race?) and he did so to my surprise.
Then you try this bullshit again? Oh please, Mr. High Lord and Mighty Thoughtless. You don't own this site anyway so behave yourself.
Ausar go ahead then, listen to him. Maybe Thought is the boss here.
I have the truth to spread. I have no time for pettiness. I don't even have to be on this forum. I have my own website and blog site. I am on vacation that is why I play with you. Soon the Lion! will be back in his true range.
Peace to him that seek peace, woe to the liars and the warmongers for they shall pay the price.
Who the cap fits, let him wear it.
The Lion!
Posts: 236 | From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2005
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As for being a racist, you are way off your mark. You are mad because the Lion!'s roar is causing you heart ache.
You don't own this site anyway so behave yourself.
Thought Writes:
Ausar, it is your call. If you believe the direction this forum should take is calling people "pale-skins" so be it. Just let me know what your vision for this place is? I do know that at work I can refer to people as "white" and feel comfortable. I would not feel comfortable refering to a white co-worker as a "pale-skin", would you Ausar?
Posts: 2720 | Registered: May 2004
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As for being a racist, you are way off your mark. You are mad because the Lion!'s roar is causing you heart ache.
You don't own this site anyway so behave yourself.
Thought Writes:
Ausar, it is your call. If you believe the direction this forum should take is calling people "pale-skins" so be it. Just let me know what your vision for this place is? I do know that at work I can refer to people as "white" and feel comfortable. I would not feel comfortable refering to a white co-worker as a "pale-skin", would you Ausar?
Lion! writes:
You have no fire in you. You bore me.
The Lion!
Posts: 236 | From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2005
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Spoon feeding will not be permitted. Exert yourself a bit and follow up on my sources. They are classical sources available to any serious student. Read them first, then come back if you still have issues.
The Lion!
The burden of proof is on you to prove your case,and not for me to look up every time wheather you cited Diodorus Siculus correcty. You initially claimed that Diodorus Siculus claimed that Athenians believed they were an Egyptian colony but never directly quoted your sources.
That may be. And you will get more than enough quotations from me soon.
But back to the point of this post, I do not believe that I mentioned Diodorus Siculus in this tread until you raised it. Correct Ausar?
That Diodorus thing was a red herring because my postings cite sources copiously on this issue. Or are you missing or dissing the numerous relevant authorities cited?
Peace.
The Lion!
Posts: 236 | From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2005
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Ausar, it is your call. If you believe the direction this forum should take is calling people "pale-skins" so be it. Just let me know what your vision for this place is? I do know that at work I can refer to people as "white" and feel comfortable. I would not feel comfortable refering to a white co-worker as a "pale-skin", would you Ausar?
Thought Writes:
Lion, I would ask that you not make posts like this again on this forum.
This is a overtly racist comment. It has no place on any civilized forum. It puts a "black-eye" on this forum, this discourse and the people involved therein. I am not a racist and will not allow my reputation to be stained through this sort of association.
Ausar, I challenge you to be more consistent in your application of moderation. A psuedo-Black racist is just as bad as a white racist.
You **two** need to clean up this act!!!!
I agree with you,Thought,but understand I been busy lately with my personal life and sometimes what people say slips through the cracks. I am not certain if one might call the useage of the term''pale-skins'' as racist but its certainly inappropriate for this forum,and indeed can smack of prejustice.
Lion, I would suggest that you please calm down the useage of the term ''pale-skins'' because some people might take the term as offensive or demeaing. You have been warned and its only right I warn you like I warned everybody.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Lion, in your post to Kenis you make the following statement:
Martin Bernal author of Black Athena Vol. II, The Afroasiatic Roots Of Classical Civilization, Copyright 1991, published by Rutgers University Press, New Brunswick, New Jersey, pg. 120, points to the correlation between what the ancient Greeks said about Heracles ( Hercules ) and the names of certain pharoahs of Egypt: "In both Thespiai and Thisbe, as well as at Koroneia, Herakles was known as Kharops, Herakles Kharops, or more often Kharops Herakles. The epithet would seem to mean 'flashing-eyed'. However another possibility is that the name is related to Kekrops the founder of Athens, who also had a shrine at Haliartos. Kekrops will be discussed further in Volume 3 but here it is sufficient to say that I shall argue that the name may be related HprK3R~, H ~ hpr R~, or H ~ k3wR~, the prenomena of Senwosres I, II, III. Thus, there are some possible additional associations of the Boiotian Herakles to the 12th Dynasty Egypt". The throne name of Senwosret III is Kha-kau-Re, of Senwosret I is Kheper-ka-Re, and Senwosret II is Kha-kheper-Re. The resemblance to the Greek Kekrops speaks for itself. It was common in ancient Greek language that Egyptian names and words were often transliterated as one combined word and or abbreviated. Diodorus Siculus records that the ancient Egyptians maintain that Kekrops was an Egyptian ruler who founded Athens for colonization.
In your responce you then made the following claims without giving references or citations:
Lion! writes:
What relevance is this question to the fact that it is universally acknowledge that the ancient Athenians had a view of themselves as a former Egyptian colony?[b]
Ancient writers like [b]Homer, Solon, Pythagoras, Socrates, Diodorus Siculus, Herodotus, Heliodotus, Tacitus, all believed that ancient Egypt had a founding influence on ancient Greece. Would you seriously doubt the veracity of the eye witness?
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: Lion, in your post to Kenis you make the following statement:
Martin Bernal author of Black Athena Vol. II, The Afroasiatic Roots Of Classical Civilization, Copyright 1991, published by Rutgers University Press, New Brunswick, New Jersey, pg. 120, points to the correlation between what the ancient Greeks said about Heracles ( Hercules ) and the names of certain pharoahs of Egypt: "In both Thespiai and Thisbe, as well as at Koroneia, Herakles was known as Kharops, Herakles Kharops, or more often Kharops Herakles. The epithet would seem to mean 'flashing-eyed'. However another possibility is that the name is related to Kekrops the founder of Athens, who also had a shrine at Haliartos. Kekrops will be discussed further in Volume 3 but here it is sufficient to say that I shall argue that the name may be related HprK3R~, H ~ hpr R~, or H ~ k3wR~, the prenomena of Senwosres I, II, III. Thus, there are some possible additional associations of the Boiotian Herakles to the 12th Dynasty Egypt". The throne name of Senwosret III is Kha-kau-Re, of Senwosret I is Kheper-ka-Re, and Senwosret II is Kha-kheper-Re. The resemblance to the Greek Kekrops speaks for itself. It was common in ancient Greek language that Egyptian names and words were often transliterated as one combined word and or abbreviated. Diodorus Siculus records that the ancient Egyptians maintain that Kekrops was an Egyptian ruler who founded Athens for colonization.
In your responce you then made the following claims without giving references or citations:
Lion! writes:
What relevance is this question to the fact that it is universally acknowledge that the ancient Athenians had a view of themselves as a former Egyptian colony?[b]
Ancient writers like [b]Homer, Solon, Pythagoras, Socrates, Diodorus Siculus, Herodotus, Heliodotus, Tacitus, all believed that ancient Egypt had a founding influence on ancient Greece. Would you seriously doubt the veracity of the eye witness?
Ausar
That post to Kleins was clearly a paraphrase quote from Black Athena written by Martin Bernal. My source was cited right up front.
I suppose we can trust the integrity of Martin Bernal a Jewish scholar and an Ivy League Professor when he makes such a claim. Or we can no longer trust this great authority? Is that what you are suggesting?
The rules of discourse appear to be changing...
The Lion!
Posts: 236 | From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2005
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That post to Kleins was clearly a paraphrase quote from Black Athena written by Martin Bernal. My source was cited right up front.
I suppose we can trust the integrity of Martin Bernal a Jewish scholar and an Ivy League Professor when he makes such a claim. Or we can no longer trust this great authority? Is that what you are suggesting?
The rules of discourse appear to be changing...
The Lion!
That was my error.
The same scrunity is upon Bernal as any other scholar,and the fact he is from an Ivy League insitution means little to his facts. Since I don't have Diodorus Siculus or acess to such publication currently in Chapter 24 of his said book he rejects the notion that Athens was an Egyptian colony.
As far as the archaeological evidence does not support Bernal's notion,and Eric Cline wrote that some pressence of Egyptians who temporary stayed but more evidence was needed for concise signs of colonization by Egyptians. Eric Cline is the leading Aegean archaeologist that specializes in relations between New Kingdom Egyptians and Greeks.
Let me also point that the Sesotris of the writings of Greco-Roman literature we are not sure exactly who said ruler was,and some have suggested it could have even been Rameses II.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Ausar, it is your call. If you believe the direction this forum should take is calling people "pale-skins" so be it. Just let me know what your vision for this place is? I do know that at work I can refer to people as "white" and feel comfortable. I would not feel comfortable refering to a white co-worker as a "pale-skin", would you Ausar?
Thought Writes:
Lion, I would ask that you not make posts like this again on this forum.
This is a overtly racist comment. It has no place on any civilized forum. It puts a "black-eye" on this forum, this discourse and the people involved therein. I am not a racist and will not allow my reputation to be stained through this sort of association.
Ausar, I challenge you to be more consistent in your application of moderation. A psuedo-Black racist is just as bad as a white racist.
You **two** need to clean up this act!!!!
I agree with you,Thought,but understand I been busy lately with my personal life and sometimes what people say slips through the cracks. I am not certain if one might call the useage of the term''pale-skins'' as racist but its certainly inappropriate for this forum,and indeed can smack of prejustice.
Lion, I would suggest that you please calm down the useage of the term ''pale-skins'' because some people might take the term as offensive or demeaing. You have been warned and its only right I warn you like I warned everybody.
Ausar
Then you may have to do either of two things:
Take a poll on the offensive nature of the term pale-skin people. Should persons of clear Euro descent have an issue with my terminology then it will be obvious to all and sundry.
People freely address others as Black Africans here or black people. Is that not more offensive than the pale-skin?
Come to think of it, do a dictionary search on the meaning of Black and note how rude it is lexically to refer to one as a Black man.
You may have to choose to ban me over the use of the term pale-skin because it will still appear in my posting. I mean no offense and no one should take any offense.
Especially not Thought, who I suspect is really one Uncle Tom negro (my apologies to Thoughtless if that is offensive).
The Lion!
Posts: 236 | From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2005
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Take a poll on the offensive nature of the term pale-skin people. Should persons of clear Euro descent have an issue with my terminology then it will be obvious to all and sundry.
People freely address others as Black Africans here or black people. Is that not more offensive than the pale-skin?
Come to think of it, do a dictionary search on the meaning of Black and note how rude it is lexically to refer to one as a Black man.
You may have to choose to ban me over the use of the term pale-skin because it will still appear in my posting. I mean no offense and no one should take any offense.
Especially not Thought, who I suspect is really one Uncle Tom negro (my apologies to Thoughtless if that is offensive).
The Lion!
You were in the clear before you personally insulted a poster here. Sorry, I am going to recommend you be banned for insulting a poster here. There is no time on this board for such insults. I made this a rule along time ago and told Horemheb I would ban him and so you are no exception. No hard feelingsw but I have to ban you.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Take a poll on the offensive nature of the term pale-skin people. Should persons of clear Euro descent have an issue with my terminology then it will be obvious to all and sundry.
People freely address others as Black Africans here or black people. Is that not more offensive than the pale-skin?
Come to think of it, do a dictionary search on the meaning of Black and note how rude it is lexically to refer to one as a Black man.
You may have to choose to ban me over the use of the term pale-skin because it will still appear in my posting. I mean no offense and no one should take any offense.
Especially not Thought, who I suspect is really one Uncle Tom negro (my apologies to Thoughtless if that is offensive).
The Lion!
You were in the clear before you personally insulted a poster here. Sorry, I am going to recommend you be banned for insulting a poster here. There is no time on this board for such insults. I made this a rule along time ago and told Horemheb I would ban him and so you are no exception. No hard feelingsw but I have to ban you.
Ausar
No insult meant to any body. Should anyone have an issue with my words concerning personal attacks, just say so, and I will ease up.
Maybe you want to call Thought to order too for calling me a racist without basis. Now that is a truely personal attack.
But then, if you are so worried about for having the Lion! having fended off all critical attacks made on him today, then go ahead and ban him. It is all good too.
Was it not Thought who just opened a tread seeking to suggest that the Lion! is a "racist, nutty Afrocentrics." I presume you would see that as a personal compliment.
Do as you wish. I wish you well.
The Lion!
Posts: 236 | From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Here is the direct quote from Diodorus Sicily about Athenians and Egyptians:
Likewise that the Athenians themselves confes,that is the reign ofm Erecheus, when the drought had burnt up the fruits of the earth,Ceres came thither and gave them corn. And that the rites and mysteries of this goddess, were then begun in Eleusins,and the sacrifices and antient ceremonies,both of the Athenians and Egyptians, are one and the same:and theat they took the original of their Eumolpidae from the Egyptian priest,and their hearlds from their Pastophori. Further, that only the 'Grecian swear by the name of Isis,and that in all their manners and customs, they are altogether like the Egyptians. These and many other such like arguments they bring to this colony,more[I think] out of ambition,because of thehe glory and renonwn of that city,than any ground of truth they have for their assertion. To conclude , the Egyptians say, that many parts of the world were planted by their ancestors, by colonies sent from thence,by means of the state and grandeaur of their kings, anbd the vast number of their people. Which reports not being supported with sufficent arguments,nor attestedby credible authors,we think them not worthy of any further account.
___Notice that Diodorus of Scily is skeptical of such claims that were made by Egyptian priests and not by Athenians themselves! He never stated such as fact.
Reference:
The Historical Library of Didorus the Sicilian Fifteen Books
Translated byu G. Booth Esq
1814
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: Here is the direct quote from Diodorus Sicily about Athenians and Egyptians:
Likewise that the Athenians themselves confes,that is the reign ofm Erecheus, when the drought had burnt up the fruits of the earth,Ceres came thither and gave them corn. And that the rites and mysteries of this goddess, were then begun in Eleusins,and the sacrifices and antient ceremonies,both of the Athenians and Egyptians, are one and the same:and theat they took the original of their Eumolpidae from the Egyptian priest,and their hearlds from their Pastophori. Further, that only the 'Grecian swear by the name of Isis,and that in all their manners and customs, they are altogether like the Egyptians. These and many other such like arguments they bring to this colony,more[I think] out of ambition,because of thehe glory and renonwn of that city,than any ground of truth they have for their assertion. To conclude , the Egyptians say, that many parts of the world were planted by their ancestors, by colonies sent from thence,by means of the state and grandeaur of their kings, anbd the vast number of their people. Which reports not being supported with sufficent arguments,nor attestedby credible authors,we think them not worthy of any further account.
___Notice that Diodorus of Scily is skeptical of such claims that were made by Egyptian priests and not by Athenians themselves! He never stated such as fact.
Reference:
The Historical Library of Didorus the Sicilian Fifteen Books
Translated byu G. Booth Esq
1814
Ausar! I knew you could do it and find that reference yourself. But I still don't see your point.
The issue is that the ancients had such a story. At that time there was call it a rumour that Egypt ruled Greece. Fine.
That confirms part of my contention.
You want absolute scientific proof from me? Ausar, there is no such thing as absolute historical truth. Historiography is an art.
No absolute proof. That would be a fallacy.
The Lion!
Posts: 236 | From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Ausar! I knew you could do it and find that reference yourself. But I still don't see your point.
The issue is that the ancients had such a story. At that time there was call it a rumour that Egypt ruled Greece. Fine.
That confirms part of my contention.
You want absolute scientific proof from me? Ausar, there is no such thing as absolute historical truth. Historiography is an art.
No absolute proof. That would be a fallacy.
The Lion!
Through cross-referencing and archaeology you can reach a pretty accurate conclusion. Most Greco-Roman historians or writers did not have acess to temple archives and much of what they say in regards of ancient Egyptians can be sometimes considered hersay. Manetho, the authority on ancient Egyptian history, says nothing of Egyptians colonizing Athens. Infact, Manetho is very crtical of Herodotus and his historical claims.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I already asked for you to be banned by the owner of this message board. You were not banned because of the back and forth debate,but because of your personally insulting Thought. Thought never insulted you nor made any personal attacks to you. He simply pointed out that he felt your useage of the term ''pale-face'' might be taken as racist.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: I already asked for you to be banned by the owner of this message board. You were not banned because of the back and forth debate,but because of your personally insulting Thought. Thought never insulted you nor made any personal attacks to you. He simply pointed out that he felt your useage of the term ''pale-face'' might be taken as racist.
In my community calling someone an Uncle Tom negro is a critical remark directed against African descendants who are afraid to speak truth to the power. it is not a personal insult. Because a Black man can tellhis fellow the truth.
But since you are so pressed to please your old chat palour friends instead of upholding the balance of Maat, then so long Ausar.
If the likes of Thought control who is here and who is not, I would rather not be here.
The Lion!
Posts: 236 | From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
There is nothing whatsoever "offensive" in using an adjective to describe the colour of a persons skin. "Paleskins" was a word used by American Indians to distinguish white American or British colonisers or settlers. The "pale skins" (sometimes palefaces) referred to their Indian counterparts as Redskins.
Greeks have Olive skins, the Chinese Yellow, Europeans generally have White skins, Russians can be either Black or White, and Africans can be either black or white.
Such descriptions only become offensive when they are made PERSONAL, and in this case the actual colour is no more important than any physical 'differentness'. All Chinese people have "slit eyes" as opposed to round or oval eyes. It is not offensive to say this, but it is offensive to call a Chinese person "Slit-eyes". It is not offensive to call a black man a "black man" but it is offensive to call him a "chocolate bar", "Sambo" "Nigger" "Uncle Tom Negro" or "wog".
So, in my view, one can say what one likes with regard to colour or physical description of a race or ethnic group so long as it is not applied personally to any one particular individual or group in a modern setting with the purpose of degrading or insulting unless it is made to illustrate a particular point. For example it would be absurdly ridiculous to refer to American Negro slaves as "heavily sun-tanned displaced persons of Negroid persuasion living in domestic service in America." The entire meaning pales into insignificance if we are to be constantly aware of political correctness.
There is, therefore, nothing wrong with using the term Black Negroid anymore than it is to say white caucasian. I do have to agree, however, that I find any personal remark "Uncle Tom Negro" to be an offensive term whether applied to any individual or not.
However, if we are tolerant people, then we should have respect for "local customs" and in some areas such remarks are somehow NOT considered as offensive and can sometimes even be a form of endearment!!! The name "Paki" is often thought of as an insult to Pakistani people, yet I have a Pakistani friend who is a Race Relations Officer in the UK. When he addresses his audiences he always starts off "As you can see, I am a Paki" much to the applause and laughter this remark gets. The audience is immediately endeared to him.
I think, in the circumstances, such errors of judgment should result in a warning, but not necessarily permanent expulsion from the board unless of a deliberate and persistent nature. Posts: 304 | From: egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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Well on the behalf of a fellow student of Human History named LION, I would like to extend a apology towards anyone who felt disrespected by the *pale skin* or uncle tom remark that was made.
I think that LION might have just had a bad day that day and maybe just got angry at the matrix of lies that every so called Afrocentric must go through in order to come to the truth pertaining to where Afrikans fit in within human history. This type of information gathering is a cumbersome process that fustrates many and stimulates anger towards those who deliberately distort the truth, and as such LION might have been venting at them meaning only those people who seek to distort the truth of HUMAN HISTORY are meant to be disrespected by that comment not any civilized human being no matter what race or nationality they may associate with.
THAT BEING THE CASE I WOULD LIKE TO REQUEST A SECOND CHANCE FOR THE LION BECAUSE I KNOW LION MEANS WELL IN WHAT LION DOES UNFORTUNATELY LION SOMETIMES COME ACROSS IN A AGRESSIVE MANNER WHEN LION FEELS HIS TERRITORY IS BEING THREATENED.
AGAIN ON THE BEHALF OF LION I WILL APOLOGIZE BECAUSE IT WAS A POOR CHOICE OF WORDS, A LESSON WAS LEARNED AND WILL NOT BE REPEATED IF LION IS ALLOWED TO RETURN.
Aegyptiaca Aegyptiaca (also called Aigyptiaka), the "History of Egypt," was Manetho's largest work, and certainly the most important. It was organised chronologically and divided into three volumes, and his division of rulers into dynasties was a new innovation. However, he did not use the term the way we do, by bloodlines, but rather, introduced new dynasties whenever he detected some sort of discontinuity whether geographical (Dynasty IV from Memphis, V from Elephantine), or genealogical (especially in Dynasty I, he refers to each successive Pharaoh as the "son" of the previous to define what he means by "continuity"). Within the superstructure of a genealogical table of rulers, he fills in the gaps with substantial narratives of the Pharaonic rulers.
Some have suggested that Aegyptiaca was written as a competing account to Herodotus' Histories of Herodotus, to provide a national history for Egypt that did not exist before. From this perspective, Against Herodotus may have been an abridged version or just a part of Aegyptiaca that circulated independently. Unfortunately, neither survive in their original form today.
[edit] Transmission and reception The problems with a close study of Manetho, despite the reliance of Egyptologists on him for their reconstructions of the Egyptian dynasties, is that not only was Aegyptiaca not preserved as a whole, but that it became involved in a bitter battle between Jewish and anti-Jewish polemicists. During this period, disputes raged over the "oldest" civilizations, and so Manetho's account was probably excerpted during this time for use in this argument with significant alterations. Material similar to Manetho's has been found in Lysimakhos of Alexandria, and it has been suggested that this was inserted into Manetho. We do not know when this occurred, but scholars place a terminus ante quem at the first century CE, when Josephus began writing.
The earliest surviving attestation to Manetho is that of Josephus' Contra Apionem, "Against Apion." Even here, it is clear that Josephus did not have the originals. Avaris and Osarsephos are both mentioned twice (1.78, 86-87; 238, 250). Apion 1.95-97 is merely a list of kings with no narratives until 1.98, while running across two of Manetho's dynasties without mention (Dynasties XVIII and XIX). Many scholars have attempted to recreate which portions were written by the anti-Jewish and pro-Jewish writers, or even by an independent Greek copyist, but the conclusions have been disputed.
Contemporaneously or perhaps after Josephus wrote, an Epitome, or summary, of Manetho's work. This would have involved preserving the outlines of his dynasties and a few details deemed significant. For the first ruler of the first Dynasty, Menes, we learn that "He was snatched and killed by a hippopotamus." The extent to which the epitome preserved Manetho's original writing is unclear, so caution must be exercised. Nevertheless, the epitome was preserved by Sextus Julius Africanus and Eusebius, bishop of Caesarea (Chronicon). Because Africanus predates Eusebius, his version is usually considered more reliable, but there is no assurance that this is the case. Eusebius in turn was preserved by Jerome in his Latin translation, an Armenian translation, and by Syncellus. Syncellus recognised the similarities between Eusebius and Africanus, so he placed them side by side in his work, Ecloga Chronographica.
These last four copies are what remains of the epitome of Manetho. Other significant fragments include Malalas' Chronographia and Excerpta Latina Barbari, "Excerpts in Bad Latin." The route of transmission for the bulk of Manetho's work is given in the table below (adapted from Verbrugghe and Wickersham 2000:118).
[edit] Transmission of Manetho
Some have suggested that Aegyptiaca was written as a competing account to Herodotus' Histories of Herodotus, to provide a national history for Egypt that did not exist before. From this perspective, Against Herodotus may have been an abridged version or just a part of Aegyptiaca that circulated independently. Unfortunately, neither survive in their original form today
I think that LION might have just had a bad day that day and maybe just got angry at the matrix of lies
careful, this can be taken as a sneak insinuatation that the people he insulted were liars.
quote:This type of information gathering is a cumbersome process that fustrates many and stimulates anger towards those who deliberately distort the truth
another view is that one who is used to making wild claims and having them go unchallenged get frustrated.
esp. in and environment where there are knowledgeable persons who will patiently point out flaws, politely request evidence, provide evidence to the contrary, until those who make unsubstantiated claims get angry and abandon any symblance of civil discourse.
quote:AGAIN ON THE BEHALF OF LION I WILL APOLOGIZE
isn't it presumptuous of you to apologise on behalf of someone else?
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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I am not being presumptious here I have seen many sincere individuals who are trying to find truth towards HUMAN HISTORY and they some times find themselves getting fustrated along the way and end up getting angry at eveyone else. Expressing anger instead of humility towards whatever evidence is presented infront of them in the process. I myself have been down that very same road numerous times and as such I took it upon myself to try to bring a sense of PEACE in the forum and no I'm not a moderator but I do think that quality discourse between parties whom are a looking at the information from many different angles only helps everyone else to gain a better comprehension of the complexities of the past, so this is why I took it upon myself to apologize for someone who seems sincere in finding the truth but sometimes gets fustrated when it comes times to answer the questions of others who don't agree. Remember history is a topic that can stimulate any body towards anger when a individual accepts what they think is the truth and it gets challenged, so as a result I think the intention of LION is to help and not harm but the way LION went about it might not have been acceptable to everyone and as such I gave a apology on his behalf because LION in my opinion is only trying to defend what he knows to be the truth.
Can we fault anyone for trying to defend what they have come to accept as truth? In the end I will say that anybody can make a mistake in how we use our words towards others, Name one person who has never disrespected someonelse based upon the use of harsh critcism or inappropriate words towards others and I will show you someone who is not Human because all human beings make mistakes and that is my main point I think that if LION was given the choice of apologizing for Lion's remarks then LION would have done so but because LION was asked to be removed due to the inappropriate comments, so now that LION is not allowed on the forum I take it upon myself to apologize on the behalf of LION because LION as been accused of being a so called Afrocentric and as a so called Afrocentric I have to speak on his behalf because so called Afrocentrism is about teaching and reminding Afrikans that Afrika is a Continent made up of many Civilized people who carried themselves in a civilized and respectful manner so if we are to study Afrika then we must not forget that.
42 Principles of Ma'at
I have not behaved with arrogance. I have not acted with insolence. I have not set my lips against anyone.
quote:Originally posted by Hotep2u: Greetings: so this is why I took it upon myself to apologize for someone
Unless you have permission from that person to speak on their behalf, you can't apologise for them.
quote:I think that if LION was given the choice of apologizing
He did, he opted not to. He can always email the moderator and apologise, if 'he' wants to. That's his business, not ours. You can't apologise for him - simple as that.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Well on the behalf of a fellow student of Human History named LION, I would like to extend a apology towards anyone who felt disrespected by the *pale skin* or uncle tom remark that was made.
I think that LION might have just had a bad day that day and maybe just got angry at the matrix of lies that every so called Afrocentric must go through in order to come to the truth pertaining to where Afrikans fit in within human history. This type of information gathering is a cumbersome process that fustrates many and stimulates anger towards those who deliberately distort the truth, and as such LION might have been venting at them meaning only those people who seek to distort the truth of HUMAN HISTORY are meant to be disrespected by that comment not any civilized human being no matter what race or nationality they may associate with.
THAT BEING THE CASE I WOULD LIKE TO REQUEST A SECOND CHANCE FOR THE LION BECAUSE I KNOW LION MEANS WELL IN WHAT LION DOES UNFORTUNATELY LION SOMETIMES COME ACROSS IN A AGRESSIVE MANNER WHEN LION FEELS HIS TERRITORY IS BEING THREATENED.
AGAIN ON THE BEHALF OF LION I WILL APOLOGIZE BECAUSE IT WAS A POOR CHOICE OF WORDS, A LESSON WAS LEARNED AND WILL NOT BE REPEATED IF LION IS ALLOWED TO RETURN.
HOTEP
Hotep2U, I had no problem with Lion's arguments and infact he could argue quite well his points. The whole reason why I banned Lion! was because of his personal attack upon another poster here for simply pointing out that he felt the useage of ''pale skins' was reverse-racism. I had no intention of banning Lion! for this and was going to give him a warning untill in the next post he called Thought an uncle tom.
I made a rule awhile back that I would not tolerate any insults or personal attacks against any posters here. I will consider asking sammy to unban Lion! if I can get personal confirtation from him that he will no longer personally attack posters.
But understand if I allow Lion! back and he makes any racist remarks or personally attacks other I will banish him.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
There is no excuse whatsoever for anyone to get angry when discussing any point with a fellow poster. If a poster has a personal anger problem, they should seek counselling. But reading beween the lines I do not see personal aggression in "Uncle Tom Negro" Whilst offensive in many places, in his particular geographic location it may well be a term of endearment. As I said to call someone "Paki" in Leeds UK is out and out racism, but to call a person the same in some parts of the south of England, it is not. One has to realize that people come from a wide area geographically and culturally, and Ausar seems to be a 'reasonable' moderator in letting it go on this occasion. Posts: 304 | From: egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mrs. Doubtfire: There is no excuse whatsoever for anyone to get angry when discussing any point with a fellow poster. If a poster has a personal anger problem, they should seek counselling. But reading beween the lines I do not see personal aggression in "Uncle Tom Negro" Whilst offensive in many places, in his particular geographic location it may well be a term of endearment. As I said to call someone "Paki" in Leeds UK is out and out racism, but to call a person the same in some parts of the south of England, it is not. One has to realize that people come from a wide area geographically and culturally, and Ausar seems to be a 'reasonable' moderator in letting it go on this occasion.
^^translation: I'm sure dear Ausar is patient enough to tolerate a troll like me! After all, my form of trolling is more passive and covert and not as outright! So don't mind me deary! Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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For some reason it may have slipped sammy to ban me or he may have decided out of his wisdom that the situation was not worth escalating to the point of my being banned. Whatever...it is all good.
Again the Lion! wants to clarify that he meant no insult to my "white brothers and sisters" (if that terms pleases Ausar) when I referred to the paleness of their skin.
Just as I would refer to the darkness of the Black skin and not expect to cause a commotion, I used that "p" word in line with the rule of circumspection and restraint.
No one need make apologies for the Lion!. The Lion! shall take account of his own responsibilities.
Uncle Tom Negro was a literary barb. And to demonstrate the playful context of the use I neutralized the potential offensive connotation with an apology.
It appears that some people on this forum feel so insecure and threatened by the view of others that they would adopt such extreme adversarial and hostile attitude to views and concepts that they do not fully comprehend.
They become so afraid to with stand the glare of rationality that they ask for prohibiton and censorship. Such myopia will entrapped one in total witlessness. To such persons I would urge to ease it up. This is not a personal thing. this is not an ego business.
See, if a topic is so wild that you would brush it off, then just brush it off. Let such a post be proven in its worthlessness by the silent treatment it should rightly receive from rational people.
Yes, no point in heckling, or trolling or asking for censorship just because a discussion tread does not suit your fancy. Just ignore such a so-called stupid posting. Go on, move on.
This cyber corner as Ausar said is a discussion forum. Come with your ideas and concepts, have a good argument to present, converse with sincerity. Plausibility is all that historiography can offer, never finality.
I will stop here.
To all my well wishers I wish peace, to others, ...well Ausar cautioned against swearing. So we leave it for another day.
Peace!
The Lion!
Posts: 236 | From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2005
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Let me state my position on this issue, first no one on this forum should feel disrespected by another person who makes a post. Now that said it is quite apparent to me that the term Afrocentricsm is now a label given to anyone who reads authors such as George G. James, Henry Clark, Cheikh Diop etc. Next the label has been given and it is in my opinion that the next step is to smear the image of those who study or read the works of the so called Afrocentric authors, by calling them unintelligent cult members, and all other types of names. Well most people who get the Afrocentric label stamped on them will have to dissassociate themselves from such labels by ignoring the hard work done by the so called Afrocentric authors or defend the works done by such authors. Now couple this with the fact that racism is alive and well today, the Black Rage syndrome will show itself from time to time. So what I would like LION to know is just this is not the place to express such rage. Next due to the fact that both LION and myself have been labeled Afrocentrics I would just like to make known that is my basis for attempting to submit a apology on LION's behalf because being a victim of racism myself I am quite aware how some individuals react whenever they assume that racism is being used against them, this leads to a reaction that someone of the opposite race might feel is a form of racism and the next thing you know their is a all out race war beginning to start over the internet. This is why I tried to make it my responsibility to correct what I think should have been corrected pertaining towards the use of words that others might find inappropriate. because I am sure that LION himself knows quite well that the PRINCIPLES OF MA'AT must be used as the first study guide towards understanding so called Afrocentrism and also MA'AT must be practiced at all times and this is what the so called Afrocentric authors tried to convey to their readers. If and when LION failed to apologize then LION failed to maintain MA'AT and fell into the trap that others have always planned (image of crazy unintelligent, irrational person) in order to descredit the so called Afrocentric writers.
I hope LION apologizes and is allowed to come back because LION's knowledge is well served and needed here plus this is a very good place for debate because you guys here seem to carry high quality discourse on this forum and I commend all who participate and challenge all here to keep up the good work because most posters seem really sincere towards getting a good foundation towards learning about Human History.
Now on a side note I do think that LION was staggered by this response from Ausar,
LION WROTE: Ausar! I knew you could do it and find that reference yourself. But I still don't see your point.
The issue is that the ancients had such a story. At that time there was call it a rumour that Egypt ruled Greece. Fine.
That confirms part of my contention. //////////////////////////////////////////////////
LION knows this defeated his original point, which probably fustrated LION even more leading to the I don't care bump everybody who doesn't accept my point of view as truth attitude. LION knows quite well that such behavior does not reflect so called Afrocentrism because George James, Henry Clark etc. never taught that Afrikan's should carry on with such behaviors they taught humanity that history was tainted by racism and as such it needs to be scrutinized from different angles and this is what is being labeled as Afrocentrism. LION is best served by apologizing showing some humility and continuing the discourse because we all have a lot to learn about the past, and pride only limits your own learning curve.
quote:Now that said it is quite apparent to me that the term Afrocentricsm is now a label given to anyone who reads authors such as George G. James, Henry Clark, Cheikh Diop etc.
I read all those authors - but I don't repeat after them - verbatim.
I could care less about being labeled, especially by people who are unread and therefore unqualified to comment on the above scholarship.
You label yourself, by choice, so it does not serve you to complain about the label, or write long, inneffectual, defensive apologias relating to it.
What should you do?
Avail yourself of a wider array of scholarship - even from biased European scholars - since you need to understand them, in order to refute them.
You will eventually be able to make better arguments.
And then you won't get frustrated, resort to attacking other discussants, and get yourself banned. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Now on a side note I do think that LION was staggered by this response from Ausar,
LION WROTE: Ausar! I knew you could do it and find that reference yourself. But I still don't see your point.
The issue is that the ancients had such a story. At that time there was call it a rumour that Egypt ruled Greece. Fine.
That confirms part of my contention. //////////////////////////////////////////////////
LION knows this defeated his original point, which probably fustrated LION even more leading to the I don't care bump everybody who doesn't accept my point of view as truth attitude. LION knows quite well that such behavior does not reflect so called Afrocentrism because George James, Henry Clark etc. never taught that Afrikan's should carry on with such behaviors they taught humanity that history was tainted by racism and as such it needs to be scrutinized from different angles and this is what is being labeled as Afrocentrism. LION is best served by apologizing showing some humility and continuing the discourse because we all have a lot to learn about the past, and pride only limits your own learning curve.
Hotep.
Hotep2U
I do not believe that Ausar's production of the quote made by Diodorus Siculus had any relevance to my argument.
Diodorous repeated a story told by the Greeks about themselves which was prevasive at that time.
What later day redactors choose to make of that remark does not change the fact that Diodorus made such a statement in his book. Next time, I shall cull more stories from Diodorus Siculus and post here so that each can can appreciate the depth of what we are dealing with.
My source Martin Bernal (a respected ancient Egyptian historian who also speaks Greek and Hebrew) cited that quotation as another indication of the fact that Egypt was the well-spring of the Greece.
Ausar asked me to produce the full quotation and I did not consider it necessary to do so because I could not see the relevance of his request. And I still do not consider the production of Diodorous' quotation of any relevance to the theme of my argument which is that:
Athens was a colony established by the Egyptian King Seosostris.
The religious and philosophical foundations of Greece are derived from earlier Egyptian models.
The Pelasgians were a black Africans.
The early Dorians did not wipe out the Pelasgians but simply mixed with them.
The scientific and mathematical knowledge of the Greeks were sourced from Egypt.
The above premises are elementary knowledge and I was just stunned by the fact that people who were supposedly versed in the knowledge of ancient Egypt would find my propositions faulty.
And since then I have become very skeptical about the claims of some of the members of this forum.
It is jolly well easy to post ostensibly sophisticated research work of so called authorities. It is another to have the requisite analytical tools to comprehend and discuss the issues raised by those authorities.
The Lion! has too much information to be interested in the credulity of others on this board. The Lion! is simply sharing information with like minded searchers of the ancient truth.
The Lion! will continue to bring up challenging and stimulating topical issues related to ancient Egyptian. Debates are always welcome.
The strenght of my conviction, what it has done for me and where it has brought me to will not permit any frustration on my part.
The Lion! lives and breathes Pan Africanism and Afrocentricsm in all his endeavour. The Lion! has seen the real truth and validity of the philosophy.
No little poster on the Internet can shake the everyday reality that is tried, true and tested by the Lion!
At the end of the day and all the arguments, only that little voice of conscience will remain to judge whether what was said accords with facts.
My part is to raise the word. Like a farmer to plant the seed. Many will fall by the wayside, but by the will of love, even those ones will also grow. In their own time.
The Lion! Those that mention MAAT should respect MAAT. The truth is for everyone, north and south.
Posts: 236 | From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Oct 2005
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Let me get certain comments in order here and now.
1.RACISM is a major problem for all HUMANITY at this moment.
Rasol wrote: You label yourself, by choice, so it does not serve you to complain about the label, or write long, inneffectual, defensive apologias relating to it. ////////////////////////////////////////////////// Rasol that comment sounds good but it makes no sense and it's quite illogical when you put it to the test because if 10 individuals give 3 individuals a certain label then those 3 individuals cannot ignore that label because majority rules regardless if the 3 accepts that label or not. So the idea of 3 individuals ignoring the labels that others pin on them can be quite detrimental to the 3 that do so.
Today the ancient people of Km.t are labeled as European within Hollywood and the Eurocentric educational institutions. Those who don't label the Kemenu people as Europeans then give a so called Mid-Eastern identity yet numerous factual evidence exist to say otherwise. This attitude didn't happen by accident nor did it happen overnight their is a process behind what goes on in this world, so when you attempt to give advice pertaining to external labels being placed by others, then you need to contemplate also the process behind Km.t and why people who painted themselves as dark red and black humans are labeled otherwise today.
IMAGE IS EVERYTHING.
PEOPLE ARE MORE LIKELY TO ACCEPT THE STEREOTYPE THAN NOT.
A LABEL IS MUCH HARDER TO REMOVE WHEN IT IS PLACED BY SOMEONE ELSE WITH ILL INTENTIONS.
ANYTHING CAN BE DESTROYED AFTER IT IS RECEIVES A NO GOOD LABEL.
quote: Rasol wrote: You label yourself, by choice, so it does not serve you to complain about the label, or write long, inneffectual, defensive apologias relating to it.
quote:Originally posted by Hotep2u: Rasol that comment sounds good but it makes no sense and it's quite illogical when you put it to the test because if 10 individuals give 3 individuals a certain label then those 3 individuals cannot ignore that label because majority rules regardless if the 3 accepts that label or not.
Logical fallacy - appeal to the majority: the hearer is urged to accept a position because a majority of people hold to it.Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I cant quite understand why everyone seems to use Km.t as meaning Egypt. Km.t simply means "black".? Posts: 304 | From: egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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Logical fallacy - appeal to the majority: the hearer is urged to accept a position because a majority of people hold to it.
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