quote:Nubian Wedding near Aswan, Egypt It's people spoke at least two varieties of the Nubian language group, a Nilo-Saharan subfamily which includes Nobiin, Kenuzi-Dongola, Midob and several related varieties in the northern part of the Nuba Mountains in South Kordofan
I've seen this kind of theories on "Nubian" languages before on this forum. So my question is did "Nubians" really speak a Nilo-saharan language and if so how can anyone prove this since no "Nubian" language has been deciphered so far? But what interests me most is if "Nubians" really spoke a Nilo-saharan language and Ancient Egyptians spoke an Afrasian language then wouldnt this tell us for certain that Nubians were not, atleast linguistically, connected to Ancient Egyptians and thus make the Eurocentric claim of two different population valid?
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...been through this ad nauseam in another thread. Besides, Nubian names and terms in Egyptian have been identified, and though Meroitic, as some claim isn't totally deciphered, while others disagree [as Mr. Winters], everyone does agree it has been deciphered to a certain extent...so basically, the disagreement is surrounding the extent to which it has been deciphered. Thus far, indications point to Nilo-Saharan languages, as still spoken in the region!
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quote:Originally posted by Supercar: Meroitic . . . Thus far, indications point to Nilo-Saharan languages, as still spoken in the region!
But some linguists have tentatively suggested that it may be Nilo-Saharan, while others see it as a language isolate.
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supercar quote: _______________________________________________________________ ...been through this ad nauseam in another thread. Besides, Nubian names and terms in Egyptian have been identified, and though Meroitic, as some claim isn't totally deciphered, while others disagree [as Mr. Winters], everyone does agree it has been deciphered to a certain extent...so basically, the disagreement is surrounding the extent to which it has been deciphered. Thus far, indications point to Nilo-Saharan languages, as still spoken in the region! _________________________________________________________
What are the Nubian terms that have been identified in Egyptian ?
I have never heard of any Meroitic and Nubian cognate terms. Please list the Nubian and Meroitic cognate terms they you are familiar with.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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Professor, fields of interest, African History: Early Africa; Southern Africa, Eastern Africa, Northeastern Africa; Historical Linguistics
Myra thanks, nice map of the Afrasian languages, but how come Tigrinya is not presented here? Tigrinya is as distinct to Amhara as Somali is to Afan-Oromo. I hope they are not lumping it with Amhara, it deserves its own space under semetic languages.
Supercar most of us don't read all threads on this forum, so i'm sorry if you see this as "ad nauseam".
So you say The Meoretic language has been partially identified as Nilo-Saharan. And if that's true don't you think then the Egyptians being lingustically different from "Nubians" validate the early anthropologists claim of two distinct societies?
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Remember Yonis, that 'Nubians' consisted of various groups of people that happened to live in the region called 'Nubia' by the Romans. The term 'Nubian' was used by the Romans but never by the Egyptians who actually distinguished the different groups by name.
The Kanuzi, Mahas, and Dongola Nubians of modern northern Sudan could very well be the direct descendants of the ancient peoples who lived in the exact same region.
Also, many linguists agree that both Afrasian and Nilo-Saharan have co-existed in northeast Africa for a very long time. This could be found in the fact that the Egyptian language itself, while Afrasian, possessed certain features that are Nilo-Saharan. And even the modern Nubian groups whose languages are Nilo-Saharan possess Afrasian features. Even as far south as Kenya, groups like the Maasai who speak Nilo-Saharan also possess Afrasian affinities in their languages.
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Supercar most of us don't read all threads on this forum, so i'm sorry if you see this as "ad nauseam".
So you say The Meoretic language has been partially identified as Nilo-Saharan. And if that's true don't you think then the Egyptians being lingustically different from "Nubians" validate the early anthropologists claim of two distinct societies?
Well of course, languages spoken in the region weren't all the same. Apparently, the Egyptians had their own polity and so did the "Nubian" groups. This doesn't take away from bidirectional influences between the polities in the entire region over the ages.
quote:Clyde Winters: What are the Nubian terms that have been identified in Egyptian ?
For one, their names. You should know this.
quote:Clyde Winters:
I have never heard of any Meroitic and Nubian cognate terms. Please list the Nubian and Meroitic cognate terms they you are familiar with.
What is "Nubian" by your definition? Here's something of interest from the online encyclopedic sources:
Old Nubian is preserved in at least a hundred pages of documents, mostly of a Christian religious nature, written with a uncial variety of the Greek alphabet, extended with three Coptic letters and three unique to Old Nubian, apparently derived from Meroitic. These documents range in date from the 8th to the 15th century A.D.. Old Nubian is currently considered ancestral to modern Nobiin.
Even if Meroitic as a language is dead, surely the language would have maintained some continuity bit by bit within a new language(s), just as bits of old Egyptian had made their way into the Arabic spoken in contemporary Egypt; thus, not as totally dead, as some would perceive it to be.
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posted
Anything involving the word Nubian is immediately up for mis-understanding and will prove challenging to discuss on a forum without simply generating more confusion.
An ancient region of northeastern Africa (southern Egypt and northern Sudan) on the Nile; much of Nubia is now under Lake Nasser
Do we understand that Nubia is a region, that it is not a country - it is not a civilisation.
Where does the word Nubian come from?
The origin of the word is from the mdw ntr. It is Kemetic - Nub means gold. Gold mines were found in this region and it is for this that the region is named.
To what "country" does "Nubia" properly belong?
Nubia does not belong to any one country for the same reason that the Sahara desert, or Nile VAlley or Rift Valley or Kalahari or Sahel do not belong to any one country.
In terms of known political entities the geography that is Nubia was part of Ta Seti, of Kemet and Kush, or all three before there was any nation or ethnic group known as Nubian.
Kush is *not* a synonym for Nubia, as Kush extended far beyound the southern boundaries of the gold mines for which Ta Nub was known.
Where does the concept of Nubians come from?
Just as the ancient Greeks coined the term "Egypt, and Ethiopian" from bastardised mdw ntr, so did the Romans coin the term Nubians for the people who lived south of "Egypt".
Who then are the "post Roman era" Nubians?
Nubians are defined in modern scholarship as people who speak Nubian languages - these languages are a sub-group of Nilo Saharan - the same way as Cushtitic languages are a sub-group of Afrisan, and Latin is a sub-group of [indo]-European language family.
All Nilo-saharan languages are not necessarily Nubian.
Similarly, all people of Nubia do not necessarily speak Nilo Saharan languages. The Medijay or Beja of ancient KM.t are often referred to in Eurocentric texts as "nubians", but their language is Afrisan and closely related to mdw ntr - and not so related to Nilo Saharan.
Moreover politically the Medijay were often allied with Km.t and in conflict with Kush.
So we see that the political history of the ancient Nile Valley does *not* support the notion of a unitary ethnic or political construct called Nubia, and which can be distinguised from Km.t.
Km.t [ancient egypt] originated the term Nub.t as a reference to a part of it's own geography. And the referenced region was often partly or even entirely encounced within Km.t [and later Kush, which often extended far south of Nubia].
There are two further subtle ironies that must be kept in mind.
1) According to modern linguists the Afrisan language family [including mdw ntr, semitic, cushitic, tamazite/berber, etc..] may have itself originated in Eastern Sudan - just SOUTH of Nubia.
2) Meanwhile - it is unclear that the modern Nubian languages actually originated - precisely in Nubia, and it is not even agreed upon that the languages called Nubian form a proper sub-group within Nilo saharan:
These languages were the languages of the Christian Nubian kingdoms. Historical comparative research has shown that the Nile-Nubian languages do not form a genetic unit; the speakers of Nobiin arrived first in the area, followed later by the speakers of the Kenzi and Dongolawi varieties.Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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With the above in mind, we can address many questions:
quote:So you say The Meoretic language has been partially identified as Nilo-Saharan. And if that's true don't you think then the Egyptians being lingustically different from "Nubians" validate the early anthropologists claim of two distinct societies?
We already know that Kush and Km.t are two distinct societies and that Meroetic and Mdw ntr are distinct languages.
The ERROR and confusion that Eurocentric text continues to foment even now in this conversation is in the fallacy of Kush = Nubian = Black African = non Egyptian.
As related above - the Medijay are of "Nubia" [geography] and, like the Kushites and Km.t they were Black Africans, but their language is Afrisan and perhaps more closely related to Mdw ntr than any other.
Therefore these - "Nubians" relate most closely linguisticlly to "Ancient Egyptians", and not to Kushites.
The key to understanding any of this is to stop using Nubian or Kushite for that matter as and umbrella term and racial euphemism.
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Nicely laid down synopsis by Rasol, as the reiteration of the realities of the polities and ethnic groups of the "Nubia [a geography of foreign construct, never a term for a country or nation by the indigenes of the region]" becomes a daily necessity in these discussions. Both Nilo-Saharan and Afrasan languages co-existed in the region. The ancient inhabitants of these regions didn't become "extinct"; they have descendants in the region. Examples include, the Beja [Afrasan speaking group], and several "Nilo-Saharan" language groups. Hopefully, it becomes clear day by day, the need to use specific terms of antiquity, when dealing with "Nubian" regions. Again, the Kushites and the Medjay, for instance, were distinct ethnic groups of the "Nubian" regions.
-------------------- Truth - a liar penetrating device! Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Supercar: The ancient inhabitants of these regions didn't become "extinct"; they have descendants in the region.
As Kemetian control extended beyond the 4th cataract, their art corresponded to the different people they came across.
Courtesy of the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago.
Courtesy of the Museo Civico Archeologico
Above: Upper Nubian wrestlers and spectators. Notice distinctive facial features of these Nubians, compared to those of Nubians (mainly Lower Nubia) prior to extension of Egyptian control beyond the 4th cataract.
“The suggestion that the ancient Nubian wrestlers came from regions to the south of the fourth cataract seems to be confirmed by anthropological evidence.(25) Archaeologists examined a burial site at Gebel Moya and other hills in the Gezira of Sudan where remains date back to earlier than the twenty-fifth dynasty in Egypt. According to one of the archaeologists, “the cemeteries of this site have yielded the remains of a tall coarsely built Negro or Negroid race with extraordinarily massive skulls and jaws."(26) There is a strong possibility that the southern Nubians portrayed in the wrestling scenes came from this part of the Sudan. Anthropologists further suggest that the Negro type of the Gezira hills immigrated to the Nuba hills of southern Kordofan. The image of the tall, dark and extremely muscular Nubian is strikingly reminiscent of the Nuba of southern Kordofan in the Sudan. These people have remained sheltered in the remote hill country from outside influences and are surrounded by people that are physically and linguistically different from them.(27) Indeed, of the various people in the Sudan, none would seem better fit to be the descendants of the ancient Nubian wrestlers than those of the Nuba hill tribes of southern Kordofan.” - Scott T. Carroll, Gordon College.
Other interesting "Nubian" (more likely Kushites) depictions
Nubian with oryx, monkey, and leopard skins 8th-7th century B.C.; Neo-Assyrian period; Phoenician style Excavated at Fort Shalmaneser, Nimrud (ancient Kalhu), Mesopotamia Ivory; Height 5.3 inches.
Nuba photo: The most famous dance which the Nuba have, is the 'Kambala Dance'.
The Nuba Mountain area is in Southern Kordofan, in the center of Sudan.
The Nuba people are the grandchildren of the people of the Kush kingdom of the 8th century.
They are a mixture of dozens of different tribes with different cultures and languages.
The Nuba hills rise sharply from the plains, sometimes in long ranges.
They rise some 500-1000 metres from the surrounding plains. The mountains are rocky, with hill slopes and valleys.
The Nuba are mostly farmers, cultivating fields in the hills, at the foot of the hills, and in the plains.
The Kambala is a spiritual dance, and it has much to do with bringing up Nuba men to be brave, and courageous like a bull. That's why they wear the buffalo horns when they dance.
When the day for Kambala to start is announced all the young men who have reached 12-14 years of age have to join in and dance with the adults.
GO UCLA!Posts: 1549 | From: California, USA | Registered: Jan 2006
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^ FROM: http://www.nubasurvival.com: In scholarly writing there is almost no-one who now confuses Nubia or Nubian with Nuba or Nuba Mountains. In Arabic, and particularly in Sudanese usage the terms seem to get confused. There is no ethnic group in the Nuba Mountains that uses this term for themselves.
The problem is that we have almost no archeological evidence or ethnic history for the regions west of the Nile, from Aswan to Malakal, which clearly links to the Nile states. So any claims about links between Nuba (Mts) and Nubia or Nubians (except for the Hill Nubian languages which are discussed below) are speculative
Terms for Nubians and Noba are best likened to the term Berber, in the sense that Romans, Greeks and Arabs appended the generalisation to Africans who now use it themselves.
In some "Nubian" langauges the word Nuba now means "slave".
Do you think that's "indigenous"?
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ FROM: http://www.nubasurvival.com: In scholarly writing there is almost no-one who now confuses Nubia or Nubian with Nuba or Nuba Mountains. In Arabic, and particularly in Sudanese usage the terms seem to get confused. There is no ethnic group in the Nuba Mountains that uses this term for themselves.
The problem is that we have almost no archeological evidence or ethnic history for the regions west of the Nile, from Aswan to Malakal, which clearly links to the Nile states. So any claims about links between Nuba (Mts) and Nubia or Nubians (except for the Hill Nubian languages which are discussed below) are speculative
Terms for Nubians and Noba are best likened to the term Berber, in the sense that Romans, Greeks and Arabs appended the generalisation to Africans who now use it themselves.
In some "Nubian" langauges the word Nuba now means "slave".
Do you think that's "indigenous"?
Very informative rasol!
I personally dont believe the Nuba people are descendant of "Nubians" just for the sake of the name Nuba. It sounds to simplistic and shows a biased approach for those who take this shortcut as explanation.
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hill nubians and the noba living in the nuba hills. The noba(nubians) of ancient times are different from the noba of the nuba hills .
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Nuba Vision
Volume 1, Issue 3, February 2002
Nuba Languages and History: Who is related to who in and outside of the Nuba Mountains and did they come from anywhere else?
Robin Thelwall, Calgary
A Bit about myself
I first went to the Sudan to take up a post as lecturer in Phonetics in the English Dept at Khartoum University in July 1966 after two years postgraduate studies in this field at Edinburgh.
In my reading up about the languages of the Sudan, which attracted me because there were so many of them, and so many had had hardly any descriptive work done on them, I read about the complexity of the linguistic situation in the Nuba Mountains.
In December 1966 I took a lift, with my wife, with an anthropologist friend, Lewis Hill, who was going by Landrover to Bara and El Obeid, where he would put us on a lorry for Kadugli. One of my students, Abdulla Ibrahim Abdalla Kumodo was in Kadugli and we had arranged to meet him there. We stayed in the government rest house which was quite busy. The weather at that time of the year was fine and the Jebels looked most attractive with good grass and trees in bloom.
I met up with Abdulla and we spent several hours sitting in cafes at the market place. He would try and identify a few of the many people we saw passing. Finally we asked one passerby if he would sit with us and tell me a few words in his language. I had a standard wordlist of 100 items for fieldwork and he turned out to speak a language that he called Logorik. I discovered on returning to Khartoum that this was a variety of what the scholarly literature called Daju and had several related languages in the Mountains. Logorik (also known as Liguri) was spoken to the north east of Kadugli near Hajar el Mek.
It turned out that Abdulla’s family lived in Hajar el Mek and on later visits we stayed with him and his very hospitable family, consisting of his father who ran a sewing machine on the veranda of one of the merchant’s shop in town and his mother and stepmothers and brothers and sisters of whom there always seemed a crowd and always a new youngster crawling around the house.
I pursued further research on Daju and continued by working on varieties spoken near Lagowa and later in Darfur at Nyala and south of Jebel Marra in the Wadi Azum. Also during my work in Darfur I worked on varieties of the Nubian language group (Birgid and later Midob) and did a little work on some "Hill Nubian" languages spoken in the northern Nuba Mountains. I had always been interested in history and later came into regular contact with those archeologists working on the early Sudan. This led me to try and make historical sense of what is known of the languages of the Sudan and their relationships for the understanding to some little degree of the past history of languages in Sudan and perhaps of the past history of the peoples. Unfortunately language history is not exactly the same as ethno-history, but you can’t do the one without some idea of the other, and vice versa.
So what follows is a sketch of what linguists know about the historical relationships of the languages of the Nuba Mountains and what we may infer, and perhaps speculate, about the past of the speakers of those languages. The sources that Suleiman Rahhal mentions in his outline about the Nuba peoples and languages in "The Right to be Nuba" have been superseded over the years since the late 50s and early 60s, but have not been made easily available to the general reader.
A Bit about African language classification
The most significant new account of the relationships of all the languages in Africa was made by the American Joseph Greenberg in a series of articles published after 1945 and collected and revised in a single volume published in 1955 and revised somewhat in 1966. Since that time a large amount of work has been done in the recording and description of languages all over Africa. So, although there are still a large number of languages still almost undescribed (including most of the languages of the Nuba Mountains) we do have just enough material to revise Greenberg’s outline in a number of areas
One of the problems affecting most of the classifications before Greenberg is that many of the fundamental ideas about the different ethnic and linguistic groupings were influenced by old European ideas of race including the use of such terms as Hamitic and Semitic (and even Hamito-Semitic) and Negroid. Greenberg made one crucial change by trying to get away from "ethnic" or racial labels and replacing them with geographical labels which, other things being equal, should be more neutral.
Greenberg proposed four major language families for all of Africa (also called phyla after botanical classifications): Niger-Kordofanian (covering languages spoken from West Africa to East and South Africa including the very numerous Bantu sub-group and some languages of the Nuba Mountains), Afroasiatic (covering Arabic, Berber of North Africa, a large number of languages in Ethiopia and the Horn of Africa and a group including Hausa around the Lake Chad area), Khoisan (which includes languages spoken in Namibia and South Africa) Nilo-Saharan (mostly in the Sudan and Chad but also as far west as Mali and into Ethiopia and East Africa, including the very numerous Nilotic sub-group). Within Nilo-Saharan Greenberg proposed a large sub-group - Chari-Nile - which has subsequently been revised out of existence. The model of Nilo-Saharan that I will use here is that developed by M.L. Bender as a result of his own work over the last 35 years and his use of new publications over that time. I will also base my analysis on some of my own work on the Daju language group and the Nubian group. Full references are available to anyone who wishes to contact me.
A Bit of History
Evidence for the history of the Sudan is extremely limited before the 1800s with the major exception of the Nile Valley. We know quite a lot about the Kerma, Napata, Meroe and Nile Nubian civilisations although we do not understand Meroitic and are not sure of its relationship to other present-day language groups of the Sudan or Africa. Reliable scholars have rejected the possibility of Meroitic being related to Afroasiatic languages (the nearest geographically is Beja). Recent attempts to review the situation incline towards it being part of Nilo-Saharan, but this is still unproven. We also know of political states in Aksum in Northern Ethiopia, in Kanem and Bornu in eastern Nigeria; of the Funj state in the Blue Nile and the Daju, Tunjur and Fur "states" in Darfur as well as the relatively recent Kingdom of Taqali in the Rashad area of the Nuba Mountains. The Nuba Mountains only figure in indirect ways - perhaps as illustrations on Egyptian walls of wrestlers or certain hairstyles and facial scarring. Also as slaves in Egypt and other countries outside the Sudan.
A Bit of a Problem!
In scholarly writing there is almost no-one who now confuses Nubia or Nubian with Nuba or Nuba Mountains. In Arabic, and particularly in Sudanese usage the terms seem to get confused. There is no ethnic group in the Nuba Mountains that uses this term for themselves. The problem is that we have almost no archeological evidence or ethnic history for the regions west of the Nile, from Aswan to Malakal, which clearly links to the Nile states. So any claims about links between Nuba (Mts) and Nubia or Nubians (except for the Hill Nubian languages which are discussed below) are speculative.
How to simplify the complexity of the Nuba Mountain Language Situation
Of the about fifty languages spoken in the Nuba Mountains (I am of course talking about the situation that persisted at least until the late 70s) we classify them into members of two or perhaps three language families - Nilo-Saharan and Kordofanian (sub-family of the Niger-Kordofanian family). Of course in addition there is Arabic which could not have been spoken in the area prior to the Muslim invasions of Egypt in the 700s (Common Era) or the first century AH and there are also speakers of Fulani and some other West African languages. All the other languages of the Mountains well predate that period and in most cases were spoken there from time immemorial. The Kordofanian languages consist of four groups: Heiban, Talodi, Rashad and Katla - these names are based on their geographical centres (proposed by Thilo Schadeberg) and differ from names used in previous literature. The Kadugli Group was earlier classified by Greenberg as part of Kordofanian but removedfrom that relationship by Schadeberg and is currently considered probably part of Nilo-Saharan. The Kordofanian sub-groups are located in the southern and eastern areas of the Nuba Mountains. The Kadugli Group is located in the south east central fringe area near Kadugli.
The rest of the Nuba languages are classified as part of a major sub-group of Nilo-Saharan called East Sudanic. Relatives to these languages outside the Mountains include the various Nilotic groups and some smaller groups including Tama of Darfur, Nera of Eritrea and the Jebel groups of the Upper Blue Nile.
The "Hill Nubian" and Daju languages spoken in the Mountains have their major relatives outside the Mountains and we can reconstruct some details of their history and as a result propose that they each came into the Nuba Mountains to settle among the existing Nuba populations.
We are very confident that Nobiin (and later Dongolawi) came to the Nile from a centre of dispersion in Darfur-Kordofan which they occupied and controlled for perhaps 4000 years. We know that there were Nubian speakers on the Nile at least as early as the 500s CE and probably much earlier. The fact that the Hill Nubian languages have words for the days of the week dating back to Christian Nubian indicates that these languages were in contact at least during the Christian Nubian period which probably covers 500 CE - 1400 CE. This does not necessarily mean that the Hill Nubians did more than expand from central Kordofan into the Nuba Mountains during the period of Nubian political dominance from Aswan to Kosti (at least). But given the location of the Hill Nubian speakers (Dair, Dilling, Karko etc) along the NE edge of the Mountains it appears that they were "incomers" settling among the existing Nyima and Temein groups who were there before them, at least.
The Daju-speaking Groups
The Daju Language Group consists of at least six varieties spread out over a wide area from Eastern Chad to the Nuba Mountains.
We know that Southern Darfur was the centre of a Daju state perhaps as early as 1200 CE which was later displaced by the Tunjur and then the Fur who ruled from the Jebel Marra range. There are various traditions of Daju dispersion including a number of myths celebrating Ahmad el-Daj. Whatever the case, it is clear that the Daju controlled the area between southern Jebel Marra and perhaps as far east as the western edges of the Nuba Mountains. The Shatt and Liguri who are now well inside the Nuba Mts and north-east of Kadugli have been separated from the rest of the Daju for a long time (perhaps as much as 2000 years). The Daju of Dar el-Kabira and Lagawa are much more closely related linguistically to the Nyala and then to the Dar Sila Daju. This makes us think that there were two periods of Daju movement east, the first by the Shatt and Liguri and the second and perhaps related to the expansion and dominance by the South Darfur Daju, by the Lagawa Daju.
The arrival of Islam
Again the picture is very incomplete and uncertain. The following proposed "events" are based on the latest summary to be published this year.
639-640 AD Arab Muslim conquest of Egypt led by Amr ibn al ‘As for Khalifa ‘Omar. This begins the first Muslim contacts with Lower Nubians who are forced to pay tribute in slaves and livestock and promise no aggression against Egypt.
641-2 AD Islamic armies of ‘Amr ibn al`As reach the plain north of Dongola but fail to capture it.
646 AD Egyptians attack Nubia.
652 AD A "baqt" treaty established between Nubia and Egypt under Abdallah ibn Sa’ad ibn Abi Sahr. Nubia would provide 360 slaves each year and promise no attacks; Egypt would provide 1300 "kanyr" of wine. Old Dongola is captured for a period; conflicts noted between Makuria and Nobatia
950 AD Some Muslims reported at Soba
1275-1365 Period of warfare between Mamlukes and Nubians
1276 AD Mamluke Egyptians sack Dongola; forced conversion to Islam; King Dawud captured
1289 AD Last Mamluke military campaign against Dongola.
1317 AD Defeat of the last Christian king in Nubia and the first Muslim king Abdullah Barshambu on the throne in Dongola; "baqt" re-established; first mosque is built at Dongola
ISLAM REACHES THE CENTRAL SUDAN: Rise of Funj and Fur Sultanates
1504 AD The fall of Soba, capital of the last Christian kingdom of Alwa; the beginning of the
Islamic Funj Sultanate at Sennar.
Extracted from online draft: Historical Dictionary of the Sudan (3rd Edition) for subsequent Islamic chronology to the present. Forthcoming in Early 2002 by Richard Lobban, Robert Kramer and Carolyn Fluehr-Lobban, Scarecrow Press
What can we conclude?
We can propose "layers" of the Nuba language groups (and by implication their speakers) in terms of oldest inhabitants to most recent.
Oldest Kordofanian
Nyimang; Temein; Kadugli (perhaps representing and expansion of East Sudanic)
Daju Shatt & Liguri (perhaps as early as 100 BCE)
Hill Nubian (perhaps sometime between 300 and 1400 CE)
Most recent Daju Lagawa (perhaps as late as the 1300s)
The relationship between Kordofanian and the rest of Niger-Kordofanian is still not clear but the family has a time depth of a minimum of 6000 years.
The earliest date for the arrival of Islam in the Nuba Mountains is likely to be after the beginning of the establishment of Sennar, i.e. after 1504 CE
The only two groups for whom presence in the Nuba Mountains is within the last two thousand years are the Lagawa Daju and the "Hill Nubians". All other languages (and by inference people) are likely to have been in the Mountains for at least 2000 years or more.
Nuba Survival PO Box 486 28 East Walk, Hayes Middlesex, UB3 3WZ United Kingdom
note-christian kings were in the kingdom of alwa until 1504,than were conquered by the funj,but in 1600 and after new nubian kingdoms were formed.
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis: It sounds to simplistic and shows a biased approach for those who take this shortcut as explanation.
How this simplistic concept is cynically used to advance bias via circular reasoning:
Frank Snowden in reference to old kingdom Km.t iconography:
I have designated [him] a Nubian because I am one of the many scholars who have considered [his] features clearly Nubian, ie Negroid and not Egyptian.
There is and old film called "the stranger" in which Orson Wells plays a NAZI war criminal who tries to hide behind anti-German poses.
He is being pursued by a NAZI-hunter and he gives himself away when he makes an overblown speech about how Germans are just inherently bad people and can't be reformed because they don't believe in equality but rather in facism and war.
Someone asks Wells war criminal character innocently - what about Karl Marx, a German who did advocate equality?
To which "Wells" responds -> Marx wasn't a German....he was a Jew!
After he is caught, the Nazi hunter detective explains the moment when he knew he had his man:
"Who but a NAZI would insist that soley because someone is a Jew, they must therefore not be German".
And this is the same order of slip-up that 'angry mulatoo' Professor Frank Snowden made above with his excercise in racist circular reasoning in which, by definition, nubian [ie -negro] and egyptian [ie - not negro] are, and must by ideological kant forever remain -> mutually exclusive concepts.
You can't objectively examine the Black African origins of Km.t with someone who is fundamentally opposed out of anti-black racism.
The moral to the story: You can run but you can't hide.
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We know the connection because of archaeological and anthropo-historic facts:
1 - in prehistoric times one general culture existed from above Khartoum all the way downNile to the Mediterranean
2 - some people moved out of the Sahara eastward into the Nile Valley
3 - the serekh and the idea of a pharaonic ruler were common to TaSeti and Res TaMera.
Remember Dalby's affinities and fragmentation approach to African languages which relate Afrisan and Nilo-Saharan as joint members in a Northern Area of Wider Affinity. And if we adopt Greenberg's genetic treeing of African languages we still have to take Baldick/Williamson/Behren's (?) opinions of an undifferentiated "protoAfrican language" originating in the Gharb Darfur region as ancestral to proto-Afrisan, proto-NiloSaharan, and proto-MandeCongo into account.
quote:Originally posted by Yonis: ... if "Nubians" really spoke a Nilo-saharan language and Ancient Egyptians spoke an Afrasian language then wouldnt this tell us for certain that Nubians were not, at least linguistically, connected to Ancient Egyptians and thus make the Eurocentric claim of two different population valid?
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quote:'Nubians' consisted of various groups of people that happened to live in the region called 'Nubia' by the Romans. The term 'Nubian' was used by the Romans but never by the Egyptians who actually distinguished the different groups by name.
The Kanuzi, Mahas, and Dongola Nubians of modern northern Sudan could very well be the direct descendants of the ancient peoples who lived in the exact same region.
Also, many linguists agree that both Afrasian and Nilo-Saharan have co-existed in northeast Africa for a very long time. This could be found in the fact that the Egyptian language itself, while Afrasian, possessed certain features that are Nilo-Saharan. And even the modern Nubian groups whose languages are Nilo-Saharan possess Afrasian features. Even as far south as Kenya, groups like the Maasai who speak Nilo-Saharan also possess Afrasian affinities in their languages.
And as Rasol said, modern-day Nubian languages as those spoken by the Kanuzi, Mahas, and Dongola ARE part of the Nilo-Saharan language family, and all three peoples live in the exact same region that their ancestors lived in during Pharaonic times. However that doesn't make any of the Afrasian speakers like the Beja any less 'Nubian' if by going by ancient geographical classifications as cited by the Romans.
Although the Meroitic script has not been fully deciphered, enough words and names have been understood by linguinst to suggest that the Meroites and therefore their ancestors the Kushites were in fact Nilo-Saharan speakers.
Let's not try to turn this into Afrasians vs. Nilo-Saharans again, since apparently the Nile Valley is big enough for both groups to live together, just as the Horn of Africa particularly Ethiopia is big enough for peoples of both language groups.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Questions on an example I posted earlier, however trivial they might seem...
Does anyone understand that the photo below, is actual work of ancient Egyptians, who took note of what they saw in the region during their time? If you are one who continues to disregard this quite vivid artistic expression of Kemetians, why are you doing so?
Does anyone understand that these folks below lived in what is dubbed "Nubia"?
Does anyone understand that these folks likely have descendants in the region? If so, which groups could be the likely candidates?
Does anyone understand that these folks spoke a language(s)? If so, which language group(s) could they possibly have spoken, based partly on the answer above?
-------------------- Truth - a liar penetrating device! Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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You're missing the point that the middle Nile Valley was partially populated by Saharans before the birth of either TaSeti or Res TaMera way back in the days when the Nile Valley from Butana to Mediterranean was one big general culture combine and thus one population not separate "Egyptian" and "noo-bee-en" anthropologically distinct populations.
That's the point I'm making, related peoples with lingual affinities, not distinct "racial" populations as Eurocentrists propose.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Let's not try to turn this into Afrasians vs. Nilo-Saharans again, since apparently the Nile Valley is big enough for both groups to live together, just as the Horn of Africa particularly Ethiopia is big enough for peoples of both language groups.
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posted
I think I made hints toward answering part of this in the WRESTLERS AND BRACELETS thread.
quote:Originally posted by Supercar: Does anyone understand that these folks likely have descendants in the region? If so, which groups could be the likely candidates?
Does anyone understand that these folks spoke a language(s)? If so, which language group(s) could they possibly have spoken, based partly on the answer above?
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posted
We can rightfully attribute our English word "Nubian" to Roman introduction, but what is the actual Latin word the Romans wrote down?
Does that word really derive, as it seems, from the R3n Mdw word "nub(t)" or is "Nobatii" derived from a word presumably in the vocabulary of the post 300 CE Noba inheritors of the Meroitic Keshli? What is the actual Greek word for Noba in Ezana's inscription or the even earlier word in Meroitic texts that identified these relatively new "infiltrators" of Kesht territories?
Since 200 BCE these Noba moved progressively down river taking possession of former Kesht lands, intermingly their seed with, and linguistically dominating the Keshli clear to the 1st cataract and beyond. Hence Nubia, denoting the Noba hegemony.
These Noba are noted as coming from west of the Nile in its Bayuda regions. So could they not have originated from Nuba Hills, Kordofan, the current area of the braceletted wrestlers, or have moved there as well as moving to and then down the Nile?
???
.
.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Anything involving the word Nubian is immediately up for mis-understanding and will prove challenging to discuss on a forum without simply generating more confusion.
But - lets try anyway.
. . . .
Where does the word Nubian come from?
The origin of the word is from the mdw ntr. It is Kemetic - Nub means gold. Gold mines were found in this region and it is for this that the region is named.
. . . .
Where does the concept of Nubians come from?
Just as the ancient Greeks coined the term "Egypt, and Ethiopian" from bastardised mdw ntr, so did the Romans coin the term Nubians for the people who lived south of "Egypt".
Who then are the "post Roman era" Nubians?
Nubians are defined in modern scholarship as people who speak Nubian languages - these languages are a sub-group of Nilo Saharan - the same way as Cushtitic languages are a sub-group of Afrisan, and Latin is a sub-group of [indo]-European language family.
All Nilo-saharan languages are not necessarily Nubian.
Similarly, all people of Nubia do not necessarily speak Nilo Saharan languages. The Medijay or Beja of ancient KM.t are often referred to in Eurocentric texts as "nubians", but their language is Afrisan and closely related to mdw ntr - and not so related to Nilo Saharan.
Moreover politically the Medijay were often allied with Km.t and in conflict with Kush.
So we see that the political history of the ancient Nile Valley does *not* support the notion of a unitary ethnic or political construct called Nubia, and which can be distinguised from Km.t.
. . . .
There are two further subtle ironies that must be kept in mind.
1) According to modern linguists the Afrisan language family [including mdw ntr, semitic, cushitic, tamazite/berber, etc..] may have itself originated in Eastern Sudan - just SOUTH of Nubia.
2) Meanwhile - it is unclear that the modern Nubian languages actually originated - precisely in Nubia, and it is not even agreed upon that the languages called Nubian form a proper sub-group within Nilo saharan:
These languages were the languages of the Christian Nubian kingdoms. Historical comparative research has shown that the Nile-Nubian languages do not form a genetic unit; the speakers of Nobiin arrived first in the area, followed later by the speakers of the Kenzi and Dongolawi varieties.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Forget noo-bee-enz.
You're missing the point that the middle Nile Valley was partially populated by Saharans before the birth of either TaSeti or Res TaMera way back in the days when the Nile Valley from Butana to Mediterranean was one big general culture combine and thus one population not separate "Egyptian" and "noo-bee-en" anthropologically distinct populations.
That's the point I'm making, related peoples with lingual affinities, not distinct "racial" populations as Eurocentrists propose.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Let's not try to turn this into Afrasians vs. Nilo-Saharans again, since apparently the Nile Valley is big enough for both groups to live together, just as the Horn of Africa particularly Ethiopia is big enough for peoples of both language groups.
Amen! Amon! ...and props; good post... and needless to say, it will be up to future African scholars to re-define and re-classify the languages of Africa. (The term "Afrasian/Afro-Asiatic" is a joke!)Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:You're missing the point that the middle Nile Valley was partially populated by Saharans before the birth of either TaSeti or Res TaMera way back in the days when the Nile Valley from Butana to Mediterranean was one big general culture combine and thus one population not separate "Egyptian" and "noo-bee-en" anthropologically distinct populations.
Hence the relevance of
- anthropological finds showing the close physical affinity of TaSeti and pre dynastic Km.t peoples,
- the earliest emergence of Kemetic devine Kingship in TaSeti.
- the primary text indicating that Osirus and Isis [father and mother figure of the Km.t] are of TaSeti origin.
Eurocentric discourse tries to "handle" this predicament thru the absurd postulate that "Group A - nubia" [TaSeti]....terminates with the origin of Km.t..
This allows them to evade acknowledging the continuity between the upper and lower nile valley stretching back to the pre-dyanstic.
With this false dichotomy in place, it actually becomes impossible to examine the Upper Nile Valley origins of Kemetic civilisation.
This is why we shake our heads in bemusement when Africanist-Nubianologists parrot this Eurocentric inanity - ie- TaSeti was "wiped out", or it's people were carried to EGypt".
They both need to 'terminate TaSeti' because it is impossible to separate it from Kemet, and therefore maintain the Egypt vs. Nubia lie.
It's a joint enterprise and intellectual master slave relationship in which some Nubianologists function effectively as flunkies for Eurocentrists.
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You know, it just may be up to us amateurs to get this published under Ausar as editor of the book. Once professionals see our inquiries they may then be forced or inclined to delve into and resolve these matters.
quote:Originally posted by Wally: ... it will be up to future African scholars to re-define and re-classify the languages of Africa. (The term "Afrasian/Afro-Asiatic" is a joke!)[/b]
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: [qb] We can rightfully attribute our English word "Nubian" to Roman introduction, but what is the actual Latin word the Romans wrote down?
Does that word really derive, as it seems, from the R3n Mdw word "nub(t)" or is "Nobatii" derived from a word presumably in the vocabulary of the post 300 CE Noba inheritors of the Meroitic Keshli? What is the actual Greek word for Noba in Ezana's inscription or the even earlier Meroitic texts that identified these relatively new "infiltrators" of Kesht territories?
Since 200 BCE these Noba moved progressively down river taking possession of former Kesht lands, intermingly their seed with, and linguistically dominating the Keshli clear to the 1st cataract and beyond. Hence Nubia, denoting the Noba hegemony.
These Noba are noted as coming from west of the Nile in its Bayuda regions. So could they not have originated from Nuba Hills, Kordofan, the current area of the braceletted wrestlers, or have moved there as well as moving to and then down the Nile?
???
What is most likely is that Nub - meaning gold is indeed the origin of the word, and that all others are derived. This term goes back to the old kingdom 4000+~ years ago. and was also used in the context of hdj-nub [white gold] as a reference to silver, which should further clarify its primary meaning.
The term Noba, Nuba hills etc.. does not appear until 100,200 BC, and possibly all are alien bastardisations of the much older mdw ntr term.
As you noted: the people called the Nuba do not all even speak "nubian" or even "nilo saharan" langauges.
Moreover all of their references to Nuba seem to be alien.
The fact that the term means slave in some of these languages while having no 'indigenous' meaning is a dead giveaway.
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- anthropological finds showing the close physical affinity of TaSeti and pre dynastic Km.t peoples,
- the earliest emergence of Kemetic devine Kingship in TaSeti.
- the primary text indicating that Osirus and Isis [father and mother figure of the Km.t] are of TaSeti origin.
Eurocentric discourse tries to "handle" this predicament thru the absurd postulate that "Group A - nubia" [TaSeti]....terminates with the origin of Km.t..
This allows them to evade acknowledging the continuity between the upper and lower nile valley stretching back to the pre-dyanstic.
With this false dichotomy in place, it actually becomes impossible to examine the Upper Nile Valley origins of Kemetic civilisation.
This is why we shake our heads in bemusement when Africanist-Nubianologists parrot this Eurocentric inanity - ie- TaSeti was "wiped out", or it's people were carried to EGypt".
They both need to 'terminate TaSeti' because it is impossible to separate it from Kemet, and therefore maintain the Egypt vs. Nubia lie.
It's a joint enterprise and intellectual master slave relationship in which some Nubianologists function effectively as flunkies for Eurocentrists.
Yes! I've always wondered what they mean, when all the sources I've read say that Ta-Seti (A-group) Nubians were conquered or wiped out by newly unified Egypt!!
What really happened to Ta-Seti?? The evidence shows that there was some sort of conflict between it and the newly formed nation-state of Egypt but exactly what was this conflict about and what was Ta-Seti's relationship and role after the formation of dynastic Egypt.
Of course the A-group people didn't just disappear, but I find it interesting how some sources say A-group people were 'captured' by the Egyptians.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: What is most likely is that Nub - meaning gold is indeed the origin of the word, and that all others are derived. This term goes back to the old kingdom 4000+~ years ago. and was also used in the context of hdj-nub [white gold] as a reference to silver, which should further clarify its primary meaning.
The term Noba, Nuba hills etc.. does not appear until 100,200 BC, and possibly all are alien bastardisations of the much older mdw ntr term.
If I recall, aren't the 'Noba' and 'Nuba' different peoples??
quote:As you noted: the people called the Nuba do not all even speak "nubian" or even "nilo saharan" langauges.
Yes I too am aware that some groups, especially in the Kordofan region speak Niger-Congo languages.
quote:...Moreover all of their references to Nuba seem to be alien.
The fact that the term means slave in some of these languages while having no 'indigenous' meaning is a dead giveaway.
Which again, is why "Nubian" is soo confusing!
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Yes! I've always wondered what they mean, when all the sources I've read say that Ta-Seti (A-group) Nubians were conquered or wiped out by newly unified Egypt!!
The way in which we think about a thing is determined by the language that frames the discussion.
Eurocentrists have mastered the art of dissembling thru ideology.
Students of African history are still learning how to desconstruct this obfuscation.
The Km.t made if very clear that their origins are in Ta Khent, the 1st land [a part of Nub.t].
The Eurocentric discourse describes this land as "Nubia" and by definition, it is not "Egyptian".
Following this discourse - it is now IMPOSSIBLE to relate the African origins of Km.t.
That's the point - that's what they mean.
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quote:If I recall, aren't the 'Noba' and 'Nuba' different peoples??
Correct, and there are different groups of people called Noba and Nuba, some Nuba groups speak Niger-Congo/Kordofan langauges, others "nubian" Nilo saharan languages.
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Here is some info to help clear up the Nubia Myth. Notice here that they don't include the FACT that Naqada has a city called Nubti also.
Kom Ombo is an agricultural town in Egypt famous for its temple. It was originally a Greek settlement called Ombos, from the Egyptian 'nubt', meaning City of Gold (not to be confused with the city north of Naqada that was also called Nubt/Ombos) . The town's location on the Nile 50 km north of Aswan gave it some control over trade routes from Nubia to the Nile Valley, but its main rise to prominence came with the erection of the temple in the 2nd century BC.
Today, irrigated sugar cane and corn account for most of the agricultural industry.
Most of the 60,000 villagers are native Egyptians although there is a large population of Nubians who were displaced from their land upon the creation of Lake Nasser.
Scene from the Nubti Temple:
Here is the reality Nubti/Ombos was not Originally built by the Ptolemies they were rebuilding the City after it was destroyed by invaders. Cambyses stole the gold and burned the City so in order for the Ptolemies to establish a Dynasty they had to start from the SOUTH Nubti and rebuild the area.
Djehuti wrote:
quote:Yes! I've always wondered what they mean, when all the sources I've read say that Ta-Seti (A-group) Nubians were conquered or wiped out by newly unified Egypt!!
What really happened to Ta-Seti?? The evidence shows that there was some sort of conflict between it and the newly formed nation-state of Egypt but exactly what was this conflict about and what was Ta-Seti's relationship and role after the formation of dynastic Egypt.
Of course the A-group people didn't just disappear, but I find it interesting how some sources say A-group people were 'captured' by the Egyptians.
They were NOT wiped out by attacks they suffered starvation, The famine Stelae was originally located in Nubti the home of Khnum. A certain part of the Nile dried up causing starvation amongst the Nubi located in the area. Dsojer was weeping for the inhabitants of Nubti during the famine.
Djoser
Some fragmentary reliefs found at Heliopolis and Gebelein mention Djoser's name and suggest that he had commissioned construction projects in those cities. An inscription claiming to date to the reign of Djoser, but actually created during the Ptolemaic Dynasty, relates how Djoser rebuilt the temple of the god Khnum on the island of Elephantine at the First Cataract, thus ending a famine in Egypt. While this inscription is but a legend, it does show that more than two millennia after his reign, Djoser was still remembered.
The Egyptian Speos (Temples)
The Egyptian rock cut temple, or speos, was of Nubian origin. The earliest example of which was the cave sanctuary at Sayala, a Nubian site just north of Abu Simbel on the west bank of the Nile River. This site is dated to the period of the Nubian A-Group culture (3700-3250 B.C.E.). This particularly Nubian architectural expression was adopted by the Egyptians of the New Kingdom, whose pharaohs commissioned several temples in Upper Egypt and in Nubia. The earliest of these, at Speos Artemidoros, is dated to the reign of Queen Hatshepsut of Dynasty XVIII, and the most famous are the paired Northern and Southern Temples at Abu Simbel. Here, Rameses II, to whom the Greater, or Southern Sanctuary is dedicated, is equated with male solar deities but can only dawn via the ministration of the female principal, ascribed to his chief queen Nofertari, to whom the Lesser, or Northern Sanctuary is dedicated.
At some point in time during the Final Phase of the A-Group culture the mercantile condominium that had been established between the Egyptians and the Nubians was dismantled.
That dismantling is ascribed to numerous factors, one of which was certainly changes in the climate that caused the drying up of one or more arms of the Nile River, forcing Nubians of the Some scholars have interpreted a tablet associated with the Egyptian pharaoh Aha of Dynasty I (about 3007-2975 B.C.E.) as an early commemoration of a victory over the Nubians. Although this interpretation is not universally endorsed, the evidence for such campaigns seems to be unequivocal regarding the subject of a rock carving from Gebel Sheikh Suliman, now removed and in the collections of the National Museum in Khartoum. This scene was probably created during the reign of one of Aha's immediate successors, Djer (about 2974-2927 B.C.E.). This monument appears to be a record of an Egyptian raid against the Nubians in the vicinity of the second cataract. By the end of Egypt's Dynasty I (about 2850 B.C.E.) Lower Nubia no longer appears to be actively trading with Egypt; the importation of Egyptian goods and products appears to have been arrested, but military activity appears to have accelerated. The closing years of the Final Phase of the A-Group culture witnessed the virtual disappearance of the Nubians of the A-Group. Having lost control of Lower Nubia, her inhabitants appear to have retreated to the desert or regions beyond the third cataract.
Massive confusion because they don't understand AFRIKAN CASTE SYSTEM OR AFRIKAN CULTURE.
posted
One of the key's to understanding the region of Lower Nubia is that beyound the 1st cataract there is much less arable land.
In fact it is one of the dryest and harshest regions in the world.
Therefore if the region from TaSeti thru to the Delta Ta Mehu [marshlands] were under a consolodated rule - populations would have NATURALLY flowed down the nile.
It is therefore not necessary to postulate cataclysmic explanations of population trends in Ta Seti and Ta Shemu and Ta Mehu during this period.
Most of the population during the old kingdom lived in Te Shemu [upper egypt], but the fact is, the earliest example of the crown of KM.t is found in TaSeti, and that crown continues in the 1st dynasty and throughout Km.t history.
This is evidence of CONTINUITY from pre-dynastic TaSeti - thru dynastic Km.t.
And this cultural continuity can be supported via primary text, physical, linguistic and genetic evidence.
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The biological affinities study based on frequencies of cranial nonmetric traits in skeletal samples from three cemeteries at predynastic Naqada, Egypt, confirms the results of a recent nonmetric dental morphological analysis.
Both cranial and dental traits analyses indicate that the individuals buried in a cemetery characterized archaeologically as high status are significantly different from individuals buried in two other, apparently nonelite cemeteries and that the nonelite samples are not significantly different from each other.
A comparison with neighbouring Nile Valley skeletal samples suggests that the high status cemetery represents an endogamous ruling or elite segment of the local population at Naqada, which is more closely related to populations in northern Nubia [Ta Seti] than to neighbouring populations in southern Egypt. -
Concordance of cranial and dental morphological traits and evidence for endogamy in ancient Egypt - Tracy L. Prowse, Nancy C. Lovell Department of Anthropology, University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta T6G 2H4, Canada - 1996
- endogamous means the same extended royal family in TaSeti[Nubia] and TaShemu[Upper Egypt].
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posted
djehuti quote: _______________________________________________________________ Although the Meroitic script has not been fully deciphered, enough words and names have been understood by linguinst to suggest that the Meroites and therefore their ancestors the Kushites were in fact Nilo-Saharan speakers. _____________________________________________________________
This is not true.
Welsby in The Kingdom of Kush wrote, "Early scholars of the [Meroitic] language hoped that it may have been related to Old Nubian but this has been shown not to be the case, although both are agglutinative, lack gender and the place of inflexions taken by post-positions and suffixes. Whether it was related to the language of the Kerma culture is another unknown, as no inscriptions in Kerman have come to light"(p.190).
Lazlo Torok, in The Kingdom of Kush:Handbook of the Napatan-Meroitic Civilization , wrote "Since so far no bilingual text has been discovered nor any related language found, very little of Meroitic can be understood. Some linguists see a relationship between Berber and Chadic on the one hand and Meroitic, on the other. Others regard it as related to Nubian. On geographical grounds, it has been suggested that Meroitic may be related to the following language groups(in describing order of probability). Eastern Sudabic; Nilo-Saharan; Cushitic/Omotic; Kordofanian. The efforts based on such assumptions produced, however, very few results, if any. While the linguistic classification of Meroitic remains obscure, there is hardly any doubt that it was originally spoken in the northern Butana" (p.50).
As you can see Meroitic has not been found to be related to Nubian, other languages in the Nilo-Saharan family ,or any other language spoken in the area.
.......
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Hotep quote: ______________________________________________________________________ Some scholars have interpreted a tablet associated with the Egyptian pharaoh Aha of Dynasty I (about 3007-2975 B.C.E.) as an early commemoration of a victory over the Nubians. Although this interpretation is not universally endorsed, the evidence for such campaigns seems to be unequivocal regarding the subject of a rock carving from Gebel Sheikh Suliman, now removed and in the collections of the National Museum in Khartoum. This scene was probably created during the reign of one of Aha's immediate successors, Djer (about 2974-2927 B.C.E.). This monument appears to be a record of an Egyptian raid against the Nubians in the vicinity of the second cataract. ________________________________________________________________
Gebel Sheikh Suleiman relief has been discussed by many scholars such as Williams (1987) and Trigger (1980).
The Gebel Sheikh Suleiman inscription is found near Buhen, Nubia. It is carved on a sandstone rock (see figure 5). This inscription was probably written by the A-Group people who helped found ancient Egypt. The ancestors of the Egyptians or Kemites originally lived in Nubia. The Nubian origin of Egyptian civilization is supported by the discovery of artifacts by archaeologists from the University of Chicago's Oriental Institute, at Qustul (William 1987; Winters 1994).
But in reality we find more than these figures on the Gebel Sheikh Suleiman inscription which appears to date back to the A-Group period of Nubia over 5000 years ago. This is obvious when we examine the photograph of the Gebel Sheikh Suleiman relief.
From left to right on this relief we see a falcon on a serekh sign surmounting a house/ palace. In front of this village/ palace scene we see a prisoner bound by Stj bow ( the sign for the Steu). Facing the prisoner bound by Stj bow ( the sign for the Steu). Facing the prisoner bound by the stj sign we see a bird over a circle with the letter X inside. Besides this scene we have another bird setting a top the letter X within the circle sign facing a victorious battle scene which includes a man bound to a sacred bark. Over the sacred bark we find 21 Proto-Saharan signs. These signs agree with the Egyptian pottery symbols (see figure 3). The Gebel Sheikh Suleiman inscription is an obituary written about a king called Fe .
Homburger found that the Manding languages are closely related to the Coptic language. Using the Manding language we can read the Gebel Sheikh Suleiman inscription. Reading from right to left we read:
1. i gba lu
2. fe kye nde
2 1/2. ka i lu
3. fe fe tu
4. be yu su (su su) tu
5. su se lu gbe
6. po gbe tu
Below is the translation of the Gebel Sheikh Suleiman inscription: "1. Thou family habitation, hold (it) upright. 2. Fe's estate (is on) the shore (of the watercourse). 2 1/2. Cut thou (sepulchre) habitation for the family (here). 3. Fe preferred to be obedient to the order. 4. Lay low the (celebrity) in the large hemisphere tomb (and) offer up libations that merit upright virtue.6. Pure righteousness (is) King (Fe)."
This King Fe/ Pe, of Gebel Sheikh Suleiman, may relate to Pharoah Pe-Hor (Throne of Horus) since in African languages /f/ and /p/ are often interchangeable. It is interesting to note that there is an inscription on a storage jar from Cemetery L of Qustul, Nubia that reads Pe-Hor (Williams 1987, p. 164). This Pe-Hor may be the Fe, of the Gebel Sheikh Suleiman inscription.
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Gebel Sheikh Suleiman inscription is found near Buhen, Nubia. It is carved on a sandstone rock (see figure 5). This inscription was probably written by the A-Group people who helped found ancient Egypt.
I agree that this is the most likely explanation, and the most consistent with multi-diciplinary evidences.
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posted
Most repros of the Gebel Sheik Suleiman neglect to include the scripted graffito along with the art. Are the two of the same time period? Do we have abundant evidence of scripts as evolved as this "proto-Saharan script" in current and constant use in TaSeti x3st and nwt? Are there other examples of this script? How widespread was its use?
The proposed translation of the proto-Saharan script above the boat in the Djebel Sheik Suleiman inscription doesn't seem to match the art very well.
Gebel Sheikh Suleiman is a little north of the 2nd cataract. The inscription found there may depict a river battle involving two named settlements as indicated by the birds(?) atop the two large nwt glyphs. The djebel, which is on the west bank, had an early dynastic site. Across from it was a classic and late A-group site.
On the inscription, an unmanned boat floats over three dead enemies and appears to be running down a fourth. A handtied leader on one knee is yoked to the boat's prow. A standing leader with hands tied is in front of a serekh with what very much appears to be Djer's name. He holds(?) a bow marking him as of TaSeti, the Land of the Bow.
Compare Djer's serkh with the one on the inscription.
However Murnane, per Yurco, in his epigraphic analysis of the scene claims the serekh is uninscribed and thus is A-group not dynastic. But I question that.
Late A-group and early dynastic cultures were contemporaries. So even if it turns out to be true that the serekh isn't inscribed with Djer's name that's still no reason it can't be early dynastic. Especially since there supposedly are early dynastic inscriptions and reliefs at the 2nd cataract. That classic and late A-group is the precursor for some pre/early dynastic kingship iconography -- as B Wms has shown with the finds from Qustul -- makes for a hard job of distinguishing the two in TaSeti.
On the east bank opposite the Djebel are three Khartoum variant sites, an Abkan site, and a classic/late A-group site. On the west bank the Djebel itself only has the one site that Baines & Malek say is early dynastic. Why would the engraved sandstone slab there be A-group and why would it prominently display a personification of TaSeti bound captive to a post in front of a hawk headed serekh?
I have to doubt A-group kings marking one of their own victories as a victory over TaSeti. And why would the defeat of a solitary recent site in sharp contrast to the complex of sites across the river from it that go back 800 years earlier merit a victory stele? It seems some ruler not from TaSeti was commemorating the defeat of an A-group constellation.
But then again the standing man may be bound by the bow and if the serekh really is uninscribed the scene could comemmorate TaSeti subjection of two settlements that were until then independent of the state.
In any event the Djebel Sheikh Suleiman inscription and the Siali storage cache seal document the earliest primary documentation of the word TaSeti the first polity of royal status on the Nile. TaSeti is thus possibly a self given name of the A-group state.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Here we have found how the THEFT of Kemet occured,Ta Seti was the first Nome (Province) of Kemet, the main City within this Nome was called Nubti "Golden City". The LIARS and CROOKS conspired against Humanity on a whole especially native Afrikans that they would form a plan to claim ancestral accomplishments that DID NOT belong to them, (Eurocentrics and Arabcentrist).
Native Afrikans were told that they had nothing to do with Kemet/Egypt except as Nubian subjected oppressed people, which was a LOW DOWN ROTTEN LIE. The history CROOKS formulated a plan to change the Name of the 1st Nome of Kemet/Egypt from Ta Seti to KOM OMBO (This is a Arabic word)proving who was in on the THEFT.
Next they build a DAM covering up numerous ancient cities, we can rest assure the cities that are beneath that DAM contained evidence that did not support the Eurocentric/Arabcentric Egypt fantasy. After renaming the area they gave away the name of the Golden City Nubti to the Afrikans that lived in the South because they could NOT hide their presence in the region, though they changed the image of the Name Nubi from being a Citizen of Kemet to being a subjected oppressed group who were the wannabe Egyptians.
Some careless Afrocentrics bought the LIE and sold it to the children of the Kemet, giving the children of Afrika LIES instead of Truth in order to play along, participating in the DESTRUCTION of the image of the Afrikans. Why the LIE? How long did the LIARS think they would get away with telling LIES?
By the New Kingdom period in Egypt, about 1600 BC, there were also wars between Nubia and Egypt. The Egyptian pharaoh Tutmosis I invaded Nubia, and took over the kingdom of Kush as far as the fifth cataract of the Nile in 1580 BC . Egypt pretty much dominated Nubia for the next five hundred years or so , and what was left of Nubian power moved further south, to the kingdom of Meroe.
2.Common picture of what is often called Nubian Slaves. This is a incorrect classification though if your not knowledgable of Afrikan history you wouldn't be aware of this.
Different image still classified as Nubian
Different image still classified as Nubian
3. This book claims to be the authoritive source for the history of Nubia:"Daily Life of the Nubians" Robert Steven Bian...
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here is an excerpt
This monument appears to be a record of an Egyptian raid against the Nubians in the vicinity of the second cataract . By the end of Egypt's Dynasty I (about 2850 B.C.E.) Lower Nubia no longer appears to be actively trading with Egypt; the importation of Egyptian goods and products appears to have been arrested, but military activity appears to have accelerated. The closing years of the Final Phase of the A-Group culture witnessed the virtual disappearance of the Nubians of the A-Group. Having lost control of Lower Nubia, her inhabitants appear to have retreated to the desert or regions beyond the third cataract .
Notice how they lump all the groups Kemet defeated as Nubians, soon they will be including Sea peoples as Nubians also. Libya was a nation to the West of Kemet also but Nubia has earased the history of Libya. Nubianism is imaginary slave history given to Afrikans by LIARS who are RACIST to the CORE, so REJECT NUBIA Myth as History.
Here is Kemetic evolution coming from the South so called Nubia creating the first Province,Sepat,Nome called Ta Seti renamed as Kom Ombo Aswan.
Upper Egypt province ('nome') 1
Symbol:
Deity recorded on the White Chapel: Horus
Note: the main deities associated with this province are the goddess Satet, perhaps the original deity on the island of Elephantine, the goddess Anuqet, a goddess worshipped in later times on the island and in the north of the province, and the god Khnum, whose cult on Elephantine probably postdates that of Satet
At Kom Ombo the principal deity was the god Sobek; as a crocodile god he was balanced at the same site by the god of order and kingship, Horus
Main cities in the province, with evidence for temples:
Abu (Greek Elephantine)
temple of Khnum, mainly destroyed, some hard stone blocks of 4th C BC temple of Satet (remains excavated to predynastic levels; 18th Dynasty temple reconstructed from reused blocks) peripteral temple of Amenhotep III (demolished in early 19th C) Sunet (Greek Syene, Arabic Aswan)
temple of Isis Nubyt (Arabic Kom Ombo)
temple of Sobek with Horus (Ptolemaic temple, half still well-preserved)
NOME number 1 is Ta Seti with the Golden City Nubti, foundation home of the first Dynasty. NOT Kom Ombo Aswan these are NOT Kemetic words.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: The way in which we think about a thing is determined by the language that frames the discussion.
Eurocentrists have mastered the art of dissembling thru ideology.
Students of African history are still learning how to desconstruct this obfuscation.
The Km.t made if very clear that their origins are in Ta Khent, the 1st land [a part of Nub.t].
The Eurocentric discourse describes this land as "Nubia" and by definition, it is not "Egyptian".
Following this discourse - it is now IMPOSSIBLE to relate the African origins of Km.t.
That's the point - that's what they mean.
One of the key's to understanding the region of Lower Nubia is that beyound the 1st cataract there is much less arable land.
In fact it is one of the dryest and harshest regions in the world.
Therefore if the region from TaSeti thru to the Delta Ta Mehu [marshlands] were under a consolodated rule - populations would have NATURALLY flowed down the nile.
It is therefore not necessary to postulate cataclysmic explanations of population trends in Ta Seti and Ta Shemu and Ta Mehu during this period.
Most of the population during the old kingdom lived in Te Shemu [upper egypt], but the fact is, the earliest example of the crown of KM.t is found in TaSeti, and that crown continues in the 1st dynasty and throughout Km.t history.
This is evidence of CONTINUITY from pre-dynastic TaSeti - thru dynastic Km.t.
And this cultural continuity can be supported via primary text, physical, linguistic and genetic evidence.
Yes, well the funny thing is that in some of the sources I've read, they openly state that before the emergence of a unified dynastic Egypt, there were small kingdoms or polities scattered throughout the Nile Valley. The sources even say that states within the area of Egypt like Naqada were as autonomous as say Nekhen, and this continued up the Nile to the area of Nubia. These sources even say that even though these polities or states maintained their own individual identities, there was still economic as well as cultural continuation between them from Nubia through Egypt. While the sources still use Egypt and 'Nubia' to describe the geographic locations, it's not until the unification of not only the states but of Upper and Lower Egypt proper, that all of a sudden they speak as if there was some kind of rift between Egypt and Ta-Seti and then Ta-Seti fell, that all of a sudden there were ethnically 'Egyptians' and ethnically 'Nubians' and that there was a division between them!!
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Welsby in The Kingdom of Kush wrote, "Early scholars of the [Meroitic] language hoped that it may have been related to Old Nubian but this has been shown not to be the case, although both are agglutinative, lack gender and the place of inflexions taken by post-positions and suffixes. Whether it was related to the language of the Kerma culture is another unknown, as no inscriptions in Kerman have come to light"(p.190).
Lazlo Torok, in The Kingdom of Kush:Handbook of the Napatan-Meroitic Civilization , wrote "Since so far no bilingual text has been discovered nor any related language found, very little of Meroitic can be understood. Some linguists see a relationship between Berber and Chadic on the one hand and Meroitic, on the other. Others regard it as related to Nubian. On geographical grounds, it has been suggested that Meroitic may be related to the following language groups(in describing order of probability). Eastern Sudabic; Nilo-Saharan; Cushitic/Omotic; Kordofanian. The efforts based on such assumptions produced, however, very few results, if any. While the linguistic classification of Meroitic remains obscure, there is hardly any doubt that it was originally spoken in the northern Butana" (p.50).
As you can see Meroitic has not been found to be related to Nubian, other languages in the Nilo-Saharan family ,or any other language spoken in the area.
Well from some of the sources I've read they say they say that the names of the Meroitic rulers were still written in Egyptian hieroglyphs and from the names and other words some scholars think the Meroite language was Nilo-Saharan.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Gebel Sheikh Suleiman relief has been discussed by many scholars such as Williams (1987) and Trigger (1980).
The Gebel Sheikh Suleiman inscription is found near Buhen, Nubia. It is carved on a sandstone rock (see figure 5). This inscription was probably written by the A-Group people who helped found ancient Egypt. The ancestors of the Egyptians or Kemites originally lived in Nubia. The Nubian origin of Egyptian civilization is supported by the discovery of artifacts by archaeologists from the University of Chicago's Oriental Institute, at Qustul (William 1987; Winters 1994).
But in reality we find more than these figures on the Gebel Sheikh Suleiman inscription which appears to date back to the A-Group period of Nubia over 5000 years ago. This is obvious when we examine the photograph of the Gebel Sheikh Suleiman relief.
From left to right on this relief we see a falcon on a serekh sign surmounting a house/ palace. In front of this village/ palace scene we see a prisoner bound by Stj bow ( the sign for the Steu). Facing the prisoner bound by Stj bow ( the sign for the Steu). Facing the prisoner bound by the stj sign we see a bird over a circle with the letter X inside. Besides this scene we have another bird setting a top the letter X within the circle sign facing a victorious battle scene which includes a man bound to a sacred bark. Over the sacred bark we find 21 Proto-Saharan signs. These signs agree with the Egyptian pottery symbols (see figure 3). The Gebel Sheikh Suleiman inscription is an obituary written about a king called Fe .
Homburger found that the Manding languages are closely related to the Coptic language. Using the Manding language we can read the Gebel Sheikh Suleiman inscription. Reading from right to left we read:
1. i gba lu
2. fe kye nde
2 1/2. ka i lu
3. fe fe tu
4. be yu su (su su) tu
5. su se lu gbe
6. po gbe tu
Below is the translation of the Gebel Sheikh Suleiman inscription: "1. Thou family habitation, hold (it) upright. 2. Fe's estate (is on) the shore (of the watercourse). 2 1/2. Cut thou (sepulchre) habitation for the family (here). 3. Fe preferred to be obedient to the order. 4. Lay low the (celebrity) in the large hemisphere tomb (and) offer up libations that merit upright virtue.6. Pure righteousness (is) King (Fe)."
This King Fe/ Pe, of Gebel Sheikh Suleiman, may relate to Pharoah Pe-Hor (Throne of Horus) since in African languages /f/ and /p/ are often interchangeable. It is interesting to note that there is an inscription on a storage jar from Cemetery L of Qustul, Nubia that reads Pe-Hor (Williams 1987, p. 164). This Pe-Hor may be the Fe, of the Gebel Sheikh Suleiman inscription.
Yes, I am well aware of the Gebel Sheikh Suleiman rock inscriptions. Many of the sources I've read, even the old ones, admit that the earliest evidence of hieroglyphs lie in Lower Nubia, in the areas of Qustul and Sayala.
This reminds me of something else that I found peculiar in one of the sources I've read...
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
alTakruri quote: ____________________________________________________________ Most repros of the Gebel Sheik Suleiman neglect to include the scripted graffito along with the art. Are the two of the same time period? Do we have abundant evidence of scripts as evolved as this "proto-Saharan script" in current and constant use in TaSeti x3st and nwt? Are there other examples of this script? How widespread was its use? ___________________________________________________________
This is a good question. I have seen good references to the use of this writing in the Western Sahara, but except for the Gebel Sheikh Suleiman rock inscriptions I have not seen any other published data.
I would also like to note that I didn't even know there was an inscription on the rock, because must researchers only talk about the chacracters engraved in the rock and nothing else.
I would like to find out more about inscriptions from Ta Seti, because then we could find out more information about the Kerma Dynasty. This results from the fact that the Napatan and early Meroitic civilizations/empires used Egyptian as a lingua franca for the diverse people making up the Napatan and Meroitic civilizations. Any information on inscriptions from this area would be most appreciated.
The oldest inscription in Libyco-Berber was found at Oued Mertoutek. The figure appears to represent one of the Egyptian dieties.
I believe that this figure dates back to the 3rd millenium. Most researchers today date most of the ancient Libyco-Berber inscriptions to 1200-1500 BC. The god depicted in the Oued Mertoutek inscription suggest that it was done much earlier than 1500 BC.
......
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
djehuti quote: ___________________________________________________________ Well from some of the sources I've read they say they say that the names of the Meroitic rulers were still written in Egyptian hieroglyphs and from the names and other words some scholars think the Meroite language was Nilo-Saharan. ______________________________________________________________
You are correct Djehuti, the Meroites did write the names of their kings in heiroglyphics, but these hieroglyphics record Meroitic, not Egyptian during the Meroitic period.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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One of the sources I've read in the past is a book called Nubian twilight by Egyptologist Rex Keating.
What I found really funny is that while one of Keating's main premises is that significant aspects of Egyptian culture originated from Nubia, like divine kingship for example, as quite open and assertive as he was about it, he still used the dichotomy that Nubians were 'negroid' but Egyptians were not.
Of course he never gave any explanation for the use of his racial terminology or what he meant by "negroid". He nonetheless conveyed the importance of 'Nubia' especially the kingdom of Ta-Seti to Egypt's history.
But now that I think about it, I do remember about a list he showed showing the booty the Egyptians acquired by raiding their southern neighbors. The two main things they attained were cattle and slaves, but one thing in particular I noticed is that while slaves from Wawat (lower Nubia) were just called slaves, those slaves from Kush (upper Nubia) were called negroe slaves!
With such designations, does this mean he considers northern/lower Nubia to be 'caucasoid', while immediate southern/upper Nubia to be 'negroid'?!!
Are there Egyptologists today who go by such inane classifications and designations??!!
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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There is no way to assert a lie, other than thru inanity, and getting other people to be complicit in said inanity.
This is why we must check the inanity at it's source - the fallacy of the idea of the mutually exclusive Egypt and Nubia.
Once you accept and begin repeating this falsehood - no amount of evidence of origins of Kemetic civilisation from Nubia can ever *prove anything* - because the "Nubian" evidence is easily reassigned to Egypt.
Thus the Qustal incense burner is said to be "Egyptian" and therefore not "Nubian".
This game can go on foreover until we bring it to and end with a clear understanding that Nubia is a geography, and Kemet a nation...such that Kemet and TaSeti [nubia], 1st nome of Km.t are mutually inclusive - not mutually exclusive.
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I'll just say that if it weren't for you, Dr. Clyde "Ahmad" Winters I'd probably never'd known or noticed the graffito on the inscription because other than on one photo of the rock have I ever seen the script and I only noticed it there because I was scrutinizing that particular detail after being tipped offed about it after reading your translation a couple of years ago. Other than the line drawn repro you present there really is an academic precedent to ignore or overlook the graffito as unworthy of attention.
Sure'd be nice if someone'd report on or summarize
W. J. Murnane The Gebel Sheikh Suleiman Monument: Epigraphic Remarks JNES 46, 1987, 283-286
which came out of the University of Chicago.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
I would also like to note that I didn't even know there was an inscription on the rock, because must researchers only talk about the chacracters engraved in the rock and nothing else.
I would like to find out more about inscriptions from Ta Seti, because then we could find out more information about the Kerma Dynasty. This results from the fact that the Napatan and early Meroitic civilizations/empires used Egyptian as a lingua franca for the diverse people making up the Napatan and Meroitic civilizations. Any information on inscriptions from this area would be most appreciated.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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