posted
Hey, knock yourself out with all kinds of crackpot nattering; better yet, why not go to stormfront for therapy sessions, where all these "make-feel-good" pseudo-objective jibberish can be spewed unimpeded while having no bearings on the past/facts, as stated herein. Lol.
-------------------- Truth - a liar penetrating device! Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: yazid, Moors were not involved in any but the early stages of the Muslim invasion of spain. Most arabs were driven out of the country or killed. The problem is that you are vastly 'overstating' the degree in intermarriage between Europeans and Muslims.
Secondly, there is an excellent new book on the illumination of the dark ages through Spain. 'Aristotle's children' by Richard Rubenstein outlines how intellectuals of muslim, jewish and catholic faiths worked together to revive much of the old scholarship and change european thinking and lead to the renaissance. This was an effort of intellectuals and not the result of any broader interaction of peoples. It was not even accepted by catholic leadership at large until the 14th centuries.
The thing to keep formost in your thinking is that relationships between Muslims and europeans in Spain was confrontational. You cannot take the exceptions to the rule and offer that as standard history. There are many great books on the reconquest aside from the one I mentioned, all of them support the view I have outlined.
Hore, you are not making any sense.
Why did the European leadership SUDDENLY start accepting the Christian intellectualism in the 14th century, which, by the way was LONG after the glory days of the Moorish civilization in Europe? How come you dont see how you are contradicting yourself, when you DONT admit that PART of the reason for this acceptance was PRECISELY partly influenced by the reconquest of Spain from the Moors. But what EVERYONE is missing here is that the Moors were but a small part of what was the clash of East versus West, the Crusades. The Crusades introduced Europe to far more ancient cultures in the Mediterranean and Levant. The crusades led the Europeans into Islamic run Egypt and the Mediterranean. The crusades are what allowed the Spanish to become experienced and organized enough to defeat the Muslims. Therefore, you are right in a sense that it wasnt the Moors ALONE who introduced the Europeans to the ancient cultures and knowledge THAT THEY KNEW NOTHING ABOUT. The Islamic world Empire that spread from Europe to India in the late 8th century is what gave Moorish architecture its looks, inheriting greatly from the traditions embodied in the Taj Majal. It is no doubt that the Grandeur of Islamic civilization and culture DWARFED anything Europe had to offer.
But lets not forget that this culture was obtained from the spread of Islam through the lands of many ancient civilizations including Persia, Babylon, Egypt and India. This was the height of Islam and there is nothing intellectual or culturally superior about Christianity and Europe compared to Islamic religion, culture and science of the time. Again, calling the Islamic Empire civilized is definitely a STRETCH of the facts. The Islamic Empire was a imperial one, ruling through brute force, subgation, slavery and oppression. I have no love for it. But to say that the light of intellect, science and culture shown brightly in Europe at in the late 8th century is NONSENSE. Europe came into the realization of intellect, science and culture LATE in the game, long after Babylon, Egypt, Greece and Rome, and AFTER the Islamic empires. And the reconquest of Spain was NOTHING in terms of damaging the world of Islam at the time, since by the time the last Islamic people were removed from Spain, the Islamic Empire had almost TRIPLED in size.
Likewise, the early Moors were most likely NOT black West Africans in 700AD, unless there was a large contingent of black Africans in North Africa. The Islamic Empire of 700AD had not REACHED the western African countries of Mali and Timbuktu yet. The following maps will clue you in to the relative size and scope of the Islamic Empire.
From this you can see that Europe was in the INFANCY of Empire compared to Islam and that the torch of so called civilization, but better called Empire was passed from Islam to Europe, as the Christian church became the central focus for study and education, political and military power much the same as those things were under Islam. The threat and power of the Islamic Empire is what UNIFIED Europe, gave the Church its power and let to the introduction of culture and ancient knowledge to Europe. The torch of Empire passed from Egypt, Bablyon and India to Greece to Rome to Islam THEN Europe. Of course European historians being ethnocentric AND nationalistic would rather that you believe that the torch went from Babylon to Greece then Rome and finally Europe, but unfortunately this is NOT real history. Not only does it diminish Egypt as the origin of what we call civilization, but it omits the role of Islam in the periods between the fall of the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) Empire and the rise of Islam. It is almost funny to think about how people talk of the so-called feats of navigation and travel by the Portuguese and Spanish after looking at the map of the Islamic world in the 16th century. The point here is that since Europe has DOMINATED the world as an Empire since the 1800s, it has ALTERED history to OVER EMPHASIZE Europe as the home of everything good and decent in civilization, ignoring those who deserve credit and ignoring their OWN savagery and barbarity, especially as an EMPIRE.
Oh and by the way, even AFRICA had Universities prior to Europe:
quote:Originally posted by MichaelFromQuebec: They're so desperate to cling to false facts in order to alleviate themselves from their inferiority complex.
You mean things like non-black Janjaweed and non-black Arab Sudanese in general?? Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Certainly, none has been mentioned that has any bearings on developments like:
Recalling....
As a matter of record, scholar Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi's name was applied to what is now referred to as algorithm, and the term "algebra" is suppose to have come from al-jabr, 'the beginning of the name of one of his publications in which he developed a system of solving quadratic equations, thus beginning Al-gebra.'(courtesy of encyclopedia of history)
More quotes from various scholars...
Robert Briffault, in the "Making of Humanity":
"It was under the influence of the arabs and Moorish revival of culture and not in the 15th century, that a real renaissance took place. North Africa, the Middle East and Islamic Spain, not Italy, was the cradle of the rebirth of Europe. After steadily sinking lower and lower into barbarism, Europe had reached the darkest depths of ignorance and degradation when cities of the Islamic world; Baghdad, Damascus, Cairo, Cordova, and Toledo, were growing centers of civilization and intellectual activity. It was there that this new life; science - arose; a life that was to grow into a new phase of human evolution."
"While Science is the most momentous contribution of Arab civilization to the modern world, its fruits were slow in ripening and unfortunately did not directly benefit its inventors. Not until long after Moorish culture had sunk back into its pre-Islamic twilight did the giant (Science), which it had given birth to, began to rise in its might. It was not science only which brought Europe back to life. Other and manifold influences from the civilization of Islam communicated its first glow to European Life.”
George Sarton in the "Introduction to the History of Science" :
"During the reign of Caliph Al-Mamun (813-33 A.D.), the new concept of learning reached its climax. The monarch created in Baghdad a regular university called the 'House of Wisdom' for translation & research. It was equipped with a vast library and several laboratories. It was in these laboratories that the scientific method was born.
"The first mathematical transformation from the Greek conception of a static universe to the Islamic one of a dynamic, expanding universe was made by Al-Khwarizmi (780-850), the founder of modern Algebra as well as of the ‘Arab’ numerals the west uses today. He enhanced the purely arithmetical character of numbers as finite magnitudes by demonstrating their possibilities as elements of infinite manipulations and investigations of properties and relations".
"The importance of Khwarizmi's algebra was recognized, in the twelfth century, by the West, - when Girard of Cremona translated Khwarizmi’s theses into Latin. Until the sixteenth century this version was used in almost all European universities as the principal mathematical text book. But Khwarizmi's influence reached far beyond the universities. We find it reflected in the mathematical works of Leonardo Fibinacci of Pissa, Master Jacob of Florence, and of Leonardo da Vinci."
"One of the most famous exponents of Muslim universalism and an eminent figure in Islamic learning was Ibn Sina, known in the West as Avicenna (981-1037). For a thousand years he has retained his original renown as one of the greatest thinkers and medical scholars in history. His most important medical works are the Qanun (Canon) and a treatise on Cardiac drugs. The 'Qanun fil-Tibb' is an immense encyclopedia of medicine".
"We know that when, during the crusades, Europe at last began to establish hospitals, they were inspired by the Arabs of the near East, who had had hospitals for centuries....The first hospital in Paris, Les Quinze-vingt, was founded by Louis IX after his return from the crusade in 1254-1260."
"And then there was Al_kindi. (800-873 C.E.). In mathematics, he wrote four books on the number system and laid the foundation of a large part of modern arithmetic. He also contributed to spherical geometry to assist him in astronomical studies".
"Very little was known on the scientific aspects of music in his time. He was the first man in history to understand and write books on the role of mathematics in sound and in music. He was a prolific writer, the total number of books written by him was 241, the prominent among which were divided as follows: Astronomy 16, Arithmetic 11, Geometry 32, Medicine 22, Physics 12, Philosophy 22, Logic 9, Psychology 5, and Music 7.
He was known as Alkindus in Latin and a large number of his books were translated into Latin by Gherard of Cremona. Al-Kindi's influence on development of science and philosophy was significant in the revival of sciences in that period. In the Middle Ages, Cardano considered him as one of the twelve greatest minds on earth. His works, in fact, lead to further development of various subjects for centuries, notably physics, mathematics, medicine and music".
French Orientalist Dr. Gustav Lebon:
"It must be remembered that no science, either of Chemistry, Physics or any other, was discovered all of a sudden. The Arabs had established over one thousand years ago their laboratories in which they used to conduct experiments, called al-chemy, and published their discoveries, without which lavoisier (erroneously accredited by some westerners as being the founder of chemistry) would not have been able to produce anything in this field. It can be said without fear of contradiction that owing to the researches and experimentation of Muslim scientists, modern chemistry came into being and that it produced great results in the form of modern scientific inventions.
Joseph Hell in the "Arab Civilization":
"In the domain of trigonometry, the theory of Sine, Cosine and tangent is an heirloom of the Arabs. The brilliant epochs of Peurbach, of Regiomontanus, of Copernicus, cannot be recalled without reminding us of the fundamental labor of the Arab Mathematician Al-Battani, (858-929 A.D.)." (END)
The Arabs were accomplished in mathematics, chemistry, physics, medicine, philosophy, and most notably astronomy. Most Westerners think instantly of Copernicus, Galileo, or of the early Greek philosophers who worked to advance astronomical knowledge, but the contributions made by the Arabs are largely either overlooked or falsely assigned to later European astronomers. In reality, the golden era of Islamic astronomy that took place during the middle ages is of immense importance to the development of modern astronomy. Not only did the Arabs keep alive the works of the Greek and Indian astronomers before them, but they also improved upon and added to this knowledge in various significant ways. In addition, their translated works paved the way for the Copernican revolution.
Although there is no exact date for the beginning of the era of Arabic dominance in the realm of astronomy, it is generally agreed upon that by the end of the eighth century A.D. Islamic scholars had assimilated most of both Greek and Indian astronomy into their body of knowledge. They had translated many Greek texts and incorporated Greek theories into their own texts, all by the early 9th century A.D. It is hard to give an exact explanation of just how the Arabic interest in astronomy developed at this point, but there are many identifiable contributing factors. First of all, the sudden rise in astronomical interest occurred shortly after the remarkable expansion of the Islamic empire. This meant, among other things, that the invading Arabs had increased access to Greek astronomical texts which they could more easily translate. Secondly, a "renaissance of culture" is said to have occurred, starting in the beginning of the ninth century A.D. after the overthrow of the Umayyads by the Abbasids. This cultural rebirth is characterized mainly by an increased interest in the sciences (especially astronomy and chemistry) on behalf of the government. Rulers began to sponsor astronomical research through such activities as building observatories and funding scholars. Thus, the phenomenon may be at least partially explained by this conjunction of a succession of rulers who actively supported astronomical research and the increased availability of both Greek and Indian astronomical data, theories, and observations.
There are also numerous factors that must be looked at in order to understand why astronomy was so important to the people and rulers of the Islamic empire. The factor that is the most significant would be the connection between astronomy and the religion of Islam. Astronomy was imperative to the calculation of the Islamic calendar, which is lunar; it was the muslim arabs who developed the first correct lunar calendar in the world at this time. Astronomy was also necessary in the calculation of the correct times of prayer during the day, as well as the qibla, the direction to Mecca.
Luckily, this sudden burst in astronomical interest occurred at a time when astronomy was declining in Europe. The Roman empire was dissolving, and societies were beginning to focus more and more on Christianity and less and less on the works of the pagan Greeks. It is the prevailing opinion of most scholars that were it not for the assimilation of Greek astronomy by the Arabs, much of it would have been lost or at least forgotten. However, instead of having the extensive work of the Greeks and Indians stay static and unused throughout the middle ages, it was not only kept in use but significantly improved upon.
There are those who seem to be under the impression that all the Arabs ever contributed to astronomy was to have preserved the knowledge and observations of the Greeks during Europe's "Dark Ages", only to hand this information back to them at a later date so that the Europeans could continue advancing the science of astronomy. This, however, is entirely untrue. The Arabs advanced astronomy significantly during the middle ages. Not only did they take pre-existing theories and instruments and improve upon them, but they also invented entirely new theories and made their own discoveries. For example, although both the astrolabe and celestial globe were first invented by the Greeks in their original crude forms, far more sophisticated instruments were developed in medieval Islam. The astrolabe was ameliorated and fine-tuned so considerably that by the beginning of the tenth century it had been developed to the point that it could be used for approximately 300 problems in geography, spherical trigonometry, and mathematical astronomy, and to be "sophisticated enough to be useful for any latitude" [Anon.]. From this ongoing improvement of the astrolabe, the Arabs later developed an instrument called the quadrant. This instrument was sophisticated to the point that it was said to be useable to solve "all standard problems of spherical astronomy" [Anon.]. They also developed other new instruments as well, such as ones that could be used to determine the time of both day and night as well as the pendulum clock.
On a more theoretical basis, numerous inventions and discoveries were made in medieval Islam. We owe our current numerical system to them, as do we owe them most of our current knowledge of trigonometry. One great Islamic scientist alone, Abu'l-Wafa Muhammad al-Buzjani, is credited with introducing many new concepts into the field of trigonometry, the most important being the identification of the secant and cosecant. Scientists such as Abu al-Rayhan Muhammad Ahmad al-Biruni wrote many treatises on new mathematical and astronomical methods. This important Islamic astronomer, mathematician, and geographer who lived from 974 to 1048 A.D. invented several methods of representing the surface of a sphere on a plane, namely azimuthal equidistant projection and globular projection. Many others worked on making detailed observations of the heavens and using this data to develop mathematical equations and rules on the movements of celestial bodies, paying special attention to the movements of the moon. Other astronomers, such as Nasir al-Din al Tusi, undertook the task of reforming Ptolemaic astronomy. Overall, during the entire span of the middle ages there were many entirely new concepts introduced by the Arabs. By the end of the middle ages they had contributed immensely to the body of astronomical and mathematical knowledge.
A new school of thought emerged in the late 13th century that in itself constitutes a revolution. It is referred to as the Maragha Revolution, and it has been described as "an essential link to Copernican astronomy without which Copernican astronomy will be hard to explain" [Anon.]. The Maragha Revolution was, to put it simply, a rejection of many of Ptolemy's statements, and a sudden surge of new ideas and theories to replace incorrect Ptolemaic assertions. Thus, it turns out that the Arabs had come to many of the same conclusions as Copernicus well before Copernicus' time, although the astronomers of the Arabic Maragha school were still working within the confines of a geocentric model. Nonetheless, these astronomers were the ones who corrected many of Ptolemy's mistakes and made the first real moves towards the final realization of the true workings of the solar system. It is for this reason that many have firmly declared that Copernicus was influenced by the Arabic Maragha school.
In conclusion, the contributions made by the Arabs during the middle ages to the field of astronomy are not only great in number, but also in importance. This period served to enrich humanity's level of scientific understanding of the world. Medieval Islam accomplished very much in way of science and astronomy, from the beginning period of translation of Greek and Indian texts, through the golden era of new discoveries and refinement of pre-existing knowledge, right up until the time of the great European renaissance. Although we may tend to overlook and underemphasize this period in the evolution of humanity's knowledge, it nevertheless remains true that it was an era of huge importance..."
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Dr. Salah Zaimeche BA, MA, PhD;
Research Assistant, UMIST, Manchester, UK and Researcher at FSTC
First and foremost, the learning recovered, or found, or available, at that Renaissance of 16th-17th (another illogically based notion of western history) bears no resemblance to anything left by the Greeks. The mathematics, the medicine, the optics, the chemistry, the astronomy, geography, mechanics etc, of the 16th is centuries ahead of that left by the Greeks. Any person with the faintest knowledge of any such subjects can check this by looking at what was left by the Greeks and compare it with what was available in the 16th century, and even with what was available centuries up to the 14th. Anyone can thus question this notion of Greek learning recovered during the Renaissance.
*Furthermore, even supposing the Greeks had made some contribution in some of the sciences cited, what is the Greek contribution to the invention of paper, printing, farming techniques, irrigation, windmills, the compass, industrial production, glass making, cotton production, the system of numerals, trade mechanisms, paper money, the cheque? Modern finance as a whole, gardens, flowers, art of living, urban design, personal hygiene, and many more manifestations that compose our modern civilization?*
As for the notion that Greek learning had disappeared, this is another preposterous point repeatedly made by western ‘historians’. Greek learning was available throughout the so-called Dark Ages in Byzantium and even in the ‘west’. Western historians never fail to insist that Muslims sought that Greek learning from Byzantine sources, and yet say that it has disappeared, which is impossible to square. Now, if such learning was available all along, why did ‘western scholars’ have to wait until they conquered Islamic lands in Sicily (11th), Toledo (Spain) (in the 11th) and in the east during the Crusades (11th -12th) before they started acquiring such ‘Greek’ learning? Why wait? And above all, why did Western translators of the 12th century, to whom we will return further on, chose to translate such sources? This is never explained by those historians who select miniscule or fragmentary pieces of evidence, often concoctions of their own, to build extensive theories [b](i.e. the Pirenne theory, the burning of the Alexandria library)
The Evidence
The real evidence from history shows that where the Greeks had left off, the Muslims had continued thus setting up the foundations of modern science and civilization. Before looking, albeit briefly, at some aspects of Muslim decisive influences, this author, like other Muslim historians, first and foremost, never ceases to acknowledge that, although the Muslims had made such contributions, the Islamic mind and soul that science and civilization are God given gifts to all people of equal abilities. The reason why the Muslims excelled at the time they did, and played the part they did is not due to any special status (as others appear to recognize as their own), but simply to circumstances current then, i.e., spur of Islamic values, which were very strong; driven by faith, Muslims were able to accomplish what they could never achieve under other circumstances as history has shown. Moreover, the Muslims had their own contributions but never denied their inheritance from other civilizations; particularly from the Chinese with whom they always had excellent relations…
…amongst the Muslims, only a number of such scientists were Arabs; most were instead Turks, Iranians, Spanish Muslims, Berbers, Kurds...thus a myriad of people and origins brought under the mantel of Islam, a religion open to all who sought to, and excelled in learning. And that was the first, and by far, the most multienthnic culture and civilisation that had ever existed, and not equalled in many respects, even today, not even in countires and institutions which keep adverstising their equal opportunity status. ..
Such observations are not conjured up by the present author to pursue his own agenda. They can be found amidst some of the best but often inaccessible and thus obscure ‘western historians’, or men of renown. Thus, Glubb states:
“ The indebtedness of Western Christendom to Arab civilization was systematically played down, if not completely denied. A tradition was built up, by censorhip and propaganda, that the Muslim imperialists had been mere barbarians and that the rebirth of learning in the West was derived directly from Roman and Greek sources alone, without any Arab intervention.”…
To go through Islamic impact on modern science and civilization in detail demands so vast a book that nobody has written yet, and it is much beyond the capability of this author to address this issue as extensively as he would wish. Notwithstanding, just some overall observations and points are raised here.
In order to highlight the true scale of Islamic impact, its crucial to look, however briefly, at the condition of western Christendom during those so-called Dark Ages, when, such were the contrasts, and such was the envy of western Christians of life in the Muslim world, that for Europeans, as Menocal puts it, ‘It must have at times appeared that wealth and comfort went hand in hand with the ability to read Arabic.’
Whilst universality of learning was a fundamental element in Islamic civilization, science was the ‘hobby of the masses, with paupers and kings competing to obtain knowledge…’ Whereas in western Christendom, as Haskins observes, ‘….relatively few could read and write, these being chiefly ecclesiastics and, save for the very moderate attainments of an individual parish priest, men of education were concentrated in certain definite groups separated from one another by wide stretches or rural ignorance. ‘
As Draper puts it, ‘Europe was hardly more enlightened than Caffraria is now, the Saracens were cultivating and even creating science. Their triumphs in philosophy, mathematics, astronomy, chemistry, medicine, proved to be more glorious, more durable and therefore more important than their military actions had been.’ Draper goes on to say that whilst ‘the Christian peasant, fever stricken or overtaken by accident, journeyed to the nearest saint’s shrine and expected a miracle; a knife of his surgeon.’ ‘The spurious medicine of ignorant and mercenary ecclesiastical charlatans. These operated by means of chants, relics, and incense; and their enormous gains were one of the chief sources of revenue to the parish and the monastery, and a corresponding burden on the people.’
Urbanity and wealth also belonged to the Muslims, at that time. In tenth century Cordova, there were 200,000 houses, 600 mosques, 900 public baths, the streets were paved with stones, and were cleaned, policed, and illuminated at night, water was brought to the public squares and to many of the houses by conduits, Islamic cities, as a whole with their mosque and madrassas, their churches, synagogues, and schools, their bathhouses, and other amenities, contained all that was needed for leading a religious and cultured life. Such Islamic cities boasted huge expanses of gardens.
Basra in Iraq was described by the early geographers as a veritable Venice, with mile after mile of canals criss-crossing the garden and orchards; Damascus with its 110,000 gardens, and in Turkey, Ettinghausen says flowers were a ‘devotion, if not mania.’ Whilst in Islamic towns and cities, trade flourished in all directions, and the wealth of its land were the objective of the preying and attacks of Christian pirates, the view from Western Christendom was hardly flattering. So big was the contrast, as Scott puts it, that the magnificent architectural works of ‘Arab genius were attributed to an infernal agency, as beyond the efforts of unaided human power,’ an opinion still enlightened by the Spanish peasantry, who firmly believe that the Muslim palaces ‘were constructed by evil spirits.’ This account by Draper tells that:
“As late as 16th century England, there were highwaymen on the roads, pirates on the rivers, vermin in abundance in the clothing and beds…The population, sparse as it was, was perpetually thinned by pestilence and want…” - Draper
As similar state of wretchedness prevailed everywhere else. Scott tells how:
“ In Paris there were no pavements until the thirteenth century; in London none until the fourteenth; the streets of both capitals were receptacles of filth, and often impassable; at night shrouded with inky darkness; at all times dominated by outlaws; the haunt of the footpad, the nursery of the pestilence, the source of every disease, the scene of every crime” - Scott
In the Spanish Asturias at the time of the Muslim arrival (early 8th century), Scott states that,
“The dwellings were rude hovels constructed of stones and unhewn timber, thatched with straw floored with rushes and provided with a hole in the roof to enable the smoke to escape; their walls and ceilings were smeared with soot and grease, and every corner reeked with filth and with vermin. The owners of these habitations were, in appearance and intelligence, scarcely removed from the condition of savages. They dressed in sheepskins and the hides of wild beasts, which unchanged, remained in one family for many generations. The salutary habit of ablution was never practiced by them. Their garments were never cleansed, and were worn as long as their tattered fragments held together.” - Scott
From this alone, it seems extremely odd how, instead of gratitude, western historians, including Albornoz and Spanish historians of his ilk, deny the Islamic influence. -
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: It depends on what you mean by Islamic influence. The title of the thread, and what I responded to was "the African foundation of modern Spain" as there was no african foundation for modern Spain...
Point blank: The African Moors ruled Spain. The fruits of this Moorish and Islamic rule in Spain, is incalculable, as presented in relative detail in my last post, but nicely summed up by this college website as:
"Islamicized Africans (Moors) invade Spain, and rule it unti1 1492. The Moors brought agriculture, engineering, mining, industry, manufacturing, architecture, and scholarship, developing Spain into the center for culture and learning throughout Europe for almost 800 years until the fall of Granada in 1492."
The keywords above: developing Spain into the center for culture and learning throughout Europe for almost 800 years
…facilitating the so-called “renaissance” all over Europe, and you know this, but all can do about it, is to whimper in agony.
You can always rely on stormfront on the other hand, as a safe haven for make-feel-good crackpot gatherings [of your kind], where you can convince yourself that your self-delusions are real. Lol.
Here though, crackpot weeds are not allowed to bloom. Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: It depends on what you mean by Islamic influence. The title of the thread, and what I responded to was "the African foundation of modern Spain" as there was no african foundation for modern Spain. This thread has started to run off in all directions as they ususally do. The math advances some try to attribute to arab civilization actually came from India. There is general agreement from all historians on that. Nobody has said that the Muslim empire did not enjoy a golden age from the 8th century to the 11th. Nobody has said that they did not have excellent scholars who made solid contributions. What all historians say , and the historical account accounts all maintain is that the Muslims in Spain were defeated and expelled from the country by an obviously superior European society. What the reconquest didn't finish the inqusition damn sure did. Obviously it would be foolish to say they had no impact on Spain but they were hardly the dominant force in Spainish history.....the catholic church and European culture certanily were.
Hore you insist on spreading nonsense. The ONLY reason that the Europeans were ABLE to defeat the Moors is because of the LARGER picture of how the Church was able to organize the otherwise UNORGANIZED leadership of Europe to DEFEAT the Muslims. When the Spanish reconquered Spain, the achievement was INSIGNIFIGANT compared to the size of the Islamic Empire of the time. No matter how you try and make it seem that Europe SUDDENLY rose to dominance in a vaccum, that was NOT the case. The Church and the European kings who SUPPORTED the Church became powerful as a result of their Crusades. On top of that, in that time, Europe HAD NO CULTURE to offer to the rest of the world. So what did EUROPE give the world in 800-1100AD. NOTHING. That is the point. All the significant advances of culture and science were NOT coming from Europe at this time. India is not Europe, the Levant is not Europe, Baghdad is not Europe and Timbuktu is NOT EUROPE. The University of Timbuktu existed BEFORE there was a University outside of Moorish Spain. So why do you keep trying to give Europe credit for something they did not ORIGINATE. The actions of the Church and the Kings under the church were only MIMICKING what the Muslims had done prior, unifying political power, education and religion into a force of EMPIRE. Of course this imperial perspective is what led them to go on and CONQUER other parts of the world, in competition with each other AND the Islamic Empires and other Empires that had gone before. All of the history of the "great" cultures of Europe begin during the crusades and about the time of the decline and end of the Moorish empire in Spain. All of the great kings of this time were HOLY Knights in the service of the Church AGAINST the Muslims in one way or another. These things PROVE that the Islamic influence on Europe was GREAT.
The musical legacy of Spain, was introduced by the Moors, this is fact. The first Universities in Europe were built by the Moors. The first Hospitals, built by the Moors. So what if the Spanish reconquered Spain? That doesnt mean that European culture was MORE civilized than the Islamic cultures OR superior to it. How can that be when the Islamic world of 1500AD was almost 10 times the size of ALL Spain,France, Portugal, Britain and Germany combined? Stop talking nonsense. Stop trying to act as if Europe outside of Moorish Spain HAD any sort of civilized culture, because they DID NOT. It wasnt until the reconquest of Spain and the call to arms spurred on by the advance of the Islamic Empire, that Europe began to become "civilized". THOSE are the facts. And talking of the Inquisition, how is that and the subsequent turmoil of the various reformations in Europe a sign of "civilization"? Keep in mind that it was this INTOLERANCE that begat the American Empire. All of this is related.
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: Super car, the objection that i posted was the nutty idea that started the thread that there was some sort of 'African Foundation' to modern Spain, this is simply nutty talk. Was there interaction between scholars, yes. Did Europe rediscover much of what was lost classical knowledge through the arabs in spain, yes. That said, to say that Muslims jump started Spainish culture is silly. Spainish culture is European and Muslims made contributions but they were light years away from what anyone would call foundational.
Keep in mind that the zenith of muslim civilization was around the year 1000. They went into a steady decline after that that corresponded with an upswing in European power. By the end of the reconquest Europe has regained its footing and poured the foundation for the creation of the modern world we live in today. The arab contribution to this process was the reintroduction of ancient knowledge into Europe that we could say jump started the process.
Another thing to keep in mind is that after 1000 the muslim empire began to grow very conservative. As the fundamentalist Muslims grew in power much of what we know as arab scholarship moved away from the centers of power. We also need to remember that while the Moors were very involved in the initial Spainish invasion other arab groups became dominant during most of those years. In short, there is no African foundation in Spain, there is a european foundation.
Spain is very much a country with many little influences...the Moors being just one of them. But the effect the Moors had on Spain itself would be practically transparent in today's world (seeing as how it's been over 500 years since they ruled just a portion of Spain). There are many reasons for this...mainly because while the Moors were the invaders, they didn't force their culture on the natives. As many have already stated, Andalusia was a very acceptant society. I'll give you THAT much, but what you're doing is playing down the impact the Moors and the Islamic Empire as a whole had on Europe.
Following the separation of Rome into two Empires...Europe was quickly swept into a dark age. Though, I think a lot of people take for granted Rome itself. The vast majority of people who lived under the Romans were still illiterate and unlearned. Rome was very much a slave society...I think many people forget that while their glorifying it.
Horemheb, you say all the Moors and Arabs did was translate...well this is where you're DEAD wrong! Translations weren't the only things going on in the halls of the great cities of Toledo and Cordova. Did you know the Moors were the first to introduce Calculus and Trigonometry? For many years prior to the fall of the last Moorish city, even as early as Alfonso X (13th Century) and Archbishop Raimundo a century before him (whose name was really Raimont de Sauvetat, 1125-1152, he was actually a french catholic who settled in Andalus)....there were European "schools" of translators dedicated to re-writing the MOORISH sciences! The sciences of arithmetic, geometry, astronomy, and music (otherwise known by the Latin-European academy as the quadrivium).
This was going on for centuries...up until 1492 when the new conquerers came in and burned most of the scrolls. As a matter of fact, it's THESE Latin translations that we even know anything about what the Moors knew themselves.
What you Horemheb are doing is what many Western scholars have done for so many years...deny the influence Africa and Asia had on European society. Instead, you opt to create this illusion that you thought it all up yourselves. Aside from Timbuktu, there was the Cairo House of Wisdom built in 1005 with a grant from the Fatimid Caliphs who ruled North Africa. The very word Algebra is an Arabic word, adopted in Europe to describe some of the new mathematics that the Moors had brought INTO Europe. The very word for algorithm, a mathematical procedure, is a corruption of the name of Al-Khowarizmi, the Persian author of the algebra book that took Europe by storm!
Another example of what came out of the Cairo House of Wisdom is Ibn al-Haytham (aka Alhazen in Europe). He wrote a book on Optics that dealt with the important discoveries on the physiology of vision and the theory of reflection and refraction of light...it had a great influence on the development of optics in medieval Europe. Sp advanced was his work that it's translation into Latin and publication in Europe, over 500 years after his death, had a great influence on Roger Bacon and Johann Kepler. Ibn al-Haytham was also the first to obtain a formula for the 4th powers of the first n natural numbers...this was unknown in the earlier Greek period and was not rediscovered in Europe until the 17th century. Ibn al-Haytham also layed the groundwork for the modern non-Euclidean geometries. Haytham used a method utilized by J.H. Lambert in the 18th Century.
I can go on and on (giving examples about music as well as poetry), there are tons of examples in the book Golden Age of the Moor, I suggest you go pick it up.
I'm going to leave you with this one quote (something I also posted on Wikipedia...don't know if it's still there though).
Moorish Spain excelled in city planning; the sophistication of their cities was astonishing. According to one historian, Cordova "had 471 mosques and 300 public baths … the number of houses of the great and noble were 63,000 and 200,077 of the common people. There were … upwards of 80,000 shops. Water from the mountain was distributed through every corner and quarter of the city by means of leaden pipes into basins of different shapes, made of the purest gold, the finest silver, or plated brass as well into vast lakes, curios tanks, amazing reservoirs and fountains of Grecian marble." The houses of Cordova were air conditioned in the summer by "ingeniously arranged draughts of fresh air drawn from the garden over beds of flowers, chosen for their perfume, warmed in winter by hot air conveyed through pipes bedded in the walls." This list of impressive works appears endless; it includes lamp posts that lit their streets at night to grand palaces, such as the one called Azzahra with its 15,000 doors.Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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I was going to post this as an edit to the above post, but it kept messing up for some reason...so I'm just posting it separately. This is my third time writing this damn post...lol. What I'm about to write comes straight out of The Golden Age of the Moor. It's a section within a chapter, the section deals with the Moorish impact on Italian kingdoms.
"Al-Idrisi, often labeled by westerners as "the strabo of the Arabic peoples," was a famed geographer and cartographer of the 12th century. Al-Idrisi was Moroccan born in the city of Ceuta in 1100, and he was educated at Cordova in Andalus. Al-Idrisi later travelled to Sicily to enter the service of the Norman ruler Roger II. Roger II was known for his great enthusiasm for Moorish and Arab culture, particulary their sciences. Idrisi was commissioned by Roger II to construct a great silver globe. Completed in 1154, Idrisi's globe listed countries, seas, rivers, deserts, and major cities and even roads. Idrisi partitioned his globe into Seven Zones of the world. In addition, Idrisi wrote a companion geography book later to be known as The Book of Roger II. The section of the book dealing with the African continent dwelt upon the customs of various African peoples, including their commercial activities, agricultural products, and the fabric of their cultures.
Like his grandfather Roger II (both of whom are refered to as "the two baptized sultans"), the Holy Roman Emporer, Frederick II of Sicily, was also infatuated with the culture and wisdom of the Moors. Frederick II who ruled from 1215-1250, surrounded himself with Muslim scholars and vassals. So intense was his interest in Islamic cultures, that he was popularly believed to be a closet Muslim. Frederick II founded the University of Naples in 1224, and there he established a curriculum which emphasized Moorish scholarship. In fact, under Frederick II, theological studies at ALL Italian universities under his dominion ceased completely! Moorish medicine and law became the sovereign disciplines. No theological faculty would be seen at Naples until 1363. Prior to his ascension to the Spanish kingship, Alfonso X of Castile even established academic relationships with his imperial contemporary Frederick II. After Frederick's death, he continued to send his Toledan-based scholars to the Sicilian kingdom as ambassadors of Andalusian Moorish scholarship. One such ambassador was John of Cremona, a gifted European student of Moorish erudition. The learned Europeans of Frederick II's court were frequently educated outside of Catholic Europe. The most famous Italian mathematician of the period, Leonard of Pisa, was in Frederick's court, and he was educated in Africa.Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Super car, If you are math challenged you can still get help. Again, the Muslims did not rule Spain until 1492. Almost all of it was lost 250 years before. 1492 was simply the date when they lost their last foothold on the the extreme southern tip. King, you are spinning again. How many times do we have to agree that Muslims made a solid contribution to middle age scholarship. Its a mistake however to take that idea and simply go crazy with it. Muslim culture was destroyed in spain by the reconquest and the Inqusition.
-------------------- God Bless President Bush Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: Super car, If you are math challenged you can still get help.
Nope, but you certainly are mentally challenged in every possible way. Being as it is, that you are not in touch with reality, take my early advice:
You can always rely on stormfront on the other hand, as a safe haven for make-feel-good crackpot gatherings [of your kind], where you can convince yourself that your self-delusions are real. Lol.
Here though, crackpot weeds are not allowed to bloom.
In the real world, these facts are taught in colleges:
"Islamicized Africans (Moors) invade Spain, and rule it unti1 1492. The Moors brought agriculture, engineering, mining, industry, manufacturing, architecture, and scholarship, developing Spain into the center for culture and learning throughout Europe for almost 800 years until the fall of Granada in 1492."
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: Super car, If you are math challenged you can still get help. Again, the Muslims did not rule Spain until 1492. Almost all of it was lost 250 years before. 1492 was simply the date when they lost their last foothold on the the extreme southern tip. King, you are spinning again. How many times do we have to agree that Muslims made a solid contribution to middle age scholarship. Its a mistake however to take that idea and simply go crazy with it. Muslim culture was destroyed in spain by the reconquest and the Inqusition.
I'm spinning? How am I spinning? I'm providing you with names, dates, and examples...something you're NOT doing. And you're wrong again, Moorish civilization didn't go into decline until the late 13th century...not 1000 AD. You're acting as if the zenith of Al-Andalusia lasted for only a hiccup...lol. You keep talking about this "reconquest" as if it happened under ONE King, ONE war, and in a few years. Moorish society went into decline because of internal problems...and the constant change in power structure, not because of anything the Europeans did.
And again Horemheb, you're playing down the influence...pretty much saying it was "nothing special." (as if creating Calculus and Trig isn't "all that")
I gave you the example of Frederick II above, but if you look at the period in which most of Europe's oldest and finest universities were established, one cannot be struck by the proximity in time to the scientific flowering of the Moorish world and the establishment of European centers for the translation of Moorish documents...
We already know what was going on in Italy around this time...so there's really no point arguing the Moorish impact on those universities. Odds are though, seeing as how there was no where else in Europe OTHER than Andalusia to learn modern knowledge...odds are, ALL of those universities were heavily influenced by the Moors. The people who founded them were most likely taught in some Islamic institution as well. And two of those schools like Oxford and Cambridge are part of some of the biggest schools in the world TODAY!
Another example is from a man named Abulcasis who wrote an encyclopedia of medicine and surgury entitled al-Tasrif. One of Alfonso's translators, and Italian named Gerard of Cremona, tranlated the text into Latin and it became the standard text for the instruction of European surgeons. New editions of the work were still being published and utilized centuries later at Venice in 1497, Basel in 1541, and Oxford in 1778.
So you see Horemheb, the Moorish influence on Western society went farther than just the Middle Ages.
"When we consider the political and socio-spiritual threat which the Moors posed on Catholic Europe, it is not hard to understand the respect and/or envy which many Europeans had for the Moorish culture and learning. While many Catholics resisted the cultural intrusion of the Moors, several Europeans mimicked Moorish customs and manners. Even the 11th century Spanish Catholic king Alfonso VI dressed in Moorish attire, and had five wives (one of whom was a Moor: Zubaydah, daughter of Seville's Moorish ruler, Mu'tamid). There was even an entire socio-political group born of European interest in Moorish culture. The Mozarabs were Catholic Iberians (Spanish) who had adopted many customs of the African Islamic peoples, including their Arabic language. These Arabic-speaking Catholics proved to be very significant in the transference of Moorish culture to Christian Europe."Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: you are the racist here super car, you always have been.
Lol. Panic-stricken Hore, about facts he can do nothing about. Why should anyone take a stormfront crackpot like yourself seriously, thinking that you are in touch with the real world? Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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Arab unity is a new term and it is solidified by by Islam (in most cases). From the historical perspective, some are more Arab than others? for dubious reason.
Here are some Arab dynasties in Spain. Keep in mind they were the client of larger dynasties in North and West Africa. a. Abbasid b. Umayyad c. Almoravid(es) d. Almohad(es) e. Nasrid (the last dynasty) very small contigent
The Berbers and Taureg amongst, others by tribal affiliation were considerd as mawali, though their leaders tended to be Arabized or Arabs themselves (a small minority). When the Almoravides left their roots in Senegal/Morocco, they instituded a revolt to be equal to those of the Umayyad. Others mawali took note and over the Umayyad. Please look up the word mawali and its asociations as I do not want to deprive you of knowledge so check to your hearts content!
ANother word to check is yeniseri. These were captured Europeans (usually Slavs) who either joined as a way to join a civil service (something like the Army Reserve but full time with benefits, way to see or try to overtake the Muslim/Turkish empire and a potential change to establish their own dynasty in Yugoslavia or Egypt!!) Many were forced but eventually appeared to like it! In the early dynasties, it is said "it was a rare Caliph who did not have a Persian, Turk, and in later dynasties a Greek or Slavic mother".
just thought I would a few notes! enjoy
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
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Every piece of legit scholarship known to man agrees with what I said.
Lol...for example, like that college website. Yeah...right. Well, now you may go back to your 'make-feel-good' cocoon for crackpots - stormfront.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: King, You are taking good information and running way too far with it. The information that was injected into europe through spain did not have an immediate impact. the book I mentioned, 'Aristotle's Children' deals directly with that subject and you really need to read it. Keep in mind also by the dates you mentioned the Muslims had been pushed back to the bottom quarter of Spain. The interaction of Jews, Christians and Muslims occured on one primary level and that was intellectual. You can get a good start on the subject by reading up on Peter Abelard. He was involved in the firat part of the 12th century in trying to liberalize the Catholic church. You can probably pull up a good deal about him on the net. Beware of the radical voodoo scholarship that some would like to thrust upon you. Islam had a role in the middle ages but it was only a role. if I told you that Europe had a foundational impact on Islam because the crusaders occupied the Holy Land for a hundred years you would think I was nuts. Thats the kind of thing some of these nit wits try to do.
It may not have had an immediate impact, but just for the simple fact that there was so much interest in Moorish studies...so many translations for LATER people (centuries later sometimes) to discover...the impact the Moors (and other Islamic entities) had on MODERN Western society SHOULD be unchallenged. They layed the foundations for Calculus and Trigonometry, aren't those two mathematic principles still taught in schools? Now yes, I'm sure there has been more learned since 900 years ago...but THEY started it.
You are continueing the age-old excuse...the Moors discovered things that NO ONE else knew. It was then translated to Latin for Europeans to use for centuries afterward. A lot of these discoveries still being utilized far into the Colonial period! Is this not a huge impact? If not, I'd really like to know what you're version of a huge impact is.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: turn your head sideways Super car so all of the saw dust will spill out your ear. Every piece of legit scholarship known to man agrees with what I said. The Moors were displaced by arab groups after 1000 and muslims had lost most of the nation 250 years begore the fall of Grenada. Is there anything you know anything about?
*sigh* Again Horemheb, you are wrong.
There were Arab rulers in Moorish Spain I'm sure, but there was not a unified Arab "takeover" after 1000 (why do you stick to this date so much?)
You're forgetting about the Almoravid and Almorahad (sp?) Dynasties that ruled Spain. The Almoravid Dynasty came into power after Alfonso VI took Toledo in the early 11th Century (the same Alfonso VI who wanted all the Moorish knowledge...it seems there was a lot of that half-assed friendship going on). The Almoravids were led by Yusuf ibn Tashifin...who was a black African. In 1082, hundreds of Moors and Arabs fled Spain and flocked back to Africa to escape the tyranny of Alfonso and the persucution by the Christians. Finally, a year later in 1083, the Governor of Seville came and begged his assistance against the Christians. Yusuf agreed and amassed an army unlike any other seen by Arab or Moor. "It is stated that when Yusuf crossed to Spain, there was no tribe of the western desert that was not represented in his army, and it was the first time that the people of Spain saw camels used for the purpose of mounting calvary...forming the army which fought at Zalakah in 1086...were thousands of blacks armed with Indian swords...this battle drove the Christians forces out of southern Spain and laid the foundation for Yusuf's Spanish Empire (the Almoravids)."
Yusuf ruled both Spain and Africa until his death in 1106, when he was succeeded by his son. Thus, the Almoravid dynasty continued to reign with a double court, one in Africa and one in Spain. Though the Almoravid dynasty was short-lived as Yusuf's son was inexperienced and the Spanish dominion was lost in 1145. This gave rise to the second great African dynasty and the fourth and last Moorish dynasty - The Almohade...who ruled into the 13th century. Again, like I said, the decline began in the late 13th century after the fall of the Almohades.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: where are you getting this stuff king? read Aristotle's Children. Its the newest definitive work on the subject and will help you. You can order it through amazon, trust me on this.
Yea, and you read Golden Age of the Moor.
I can already see from the summary of your book, and it's title what it's going to be about. And I'm sure it'll mimick what you've said here...that the Moors didn't contribute anything new to science and were simply translaters of older knowledge. That about right? The book seems to position Artistotle as the be-all, end-all of the scientific revival of the Middle Ages...maybe I'm wrong though since I haven't read it.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Hore wants to ignore the fact that Europe was a backwater of civilization from 500-1300 AD and the Islamic Empire was the civilized culture of the western world. No amount of nit picking and arguing over insignificant facts can change this. Hore wants the history of Europe to skip over the periods of the dark ages and act as if Europe, especially western Europe was ALWAYS the bastion of intellectual achievement. First western Europe was not Greece or Rome. Second, western Europe did not inherit the knowledge of the Greeks and Romans directly from them. Third, many of the early achievements of the European world in 1400 were MIMICKING or PIGGYBACKING on the accomplishments of others: sailing around Africa, using advanced instruments in navigation, building universities, using slaves and subjugating people in the name of religion. ALL of these things were being done by people LONG before Europe ever became "civilized". So the issue here is about Europe trying to claim greatness for things it did NOT originate and was NOT the first to practice.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: Well no King and I also never said they did not make a contribution. If you read my posts on this thread I said that over and over and we agree on that point. The only area where we are not connecting is dates. There is a tendacy , especially on this board, to take a piece of information and take it too far. Spain is a European , catholic nation. It is not an african , Islamic nation. Historians want to know two things when looking at any event. As a result of that event what changed and what remained the same? That is what the study history is, nothing more, nothing less. And yes, Aristotle was huge in the revival of Europe, much more important that the muslim invasion of Spain. he was important because his material ignited the debate within the catholic church about whether there was room for rational scientific thought within the church and society as a whole. When Islam ran into the catholic church it hit a brick wall. When Aristotle's work ran into the catholic church it started a revolution.
Guys, let's not stoop to the level of pissing on Europe...and I know I'm no moderator, but let's try to cut down on the name-calling...it's kinda childish (that includes you Horemheb).
Anyway, Horemheb...we don't agree on the contributions, at least not on the same level. I see the impact of the Islamic Empires as something greater than you do. You even said yourself that you believe they simply played a "role" that was limited to the Middle Ages. So you're basically saying the scientific achievements of the Moors and others like them had no effect on the modern world. I've given examples above as to why this is wrong. Aristotle was a great man, I'm not trying to deny that...but he was NOT the sole origin of Western thought. Western Civilization has many roots, many of which sprout from non-Western cultures...the Moors being one of them.
About the dates, well you said the Arabs controlled Spain AFTER 1000. I showed you how this was wrong as you forgot about the Almoravid and Almorahade Dynasties (both with West African roots) that ruled into the early 13th Century. This is documented fact! Yusuf ibn Tashifin repelled the Spanish attack in a battle against Alfonso VI in October of 1086 at Zalakah. This is recorded. The Arabs didn't take over until AFTER the Almohade (the last Moorish Dynasty to rule Spain) dynasty fell. Maybe we disagree when it comes to the beginning of the decline.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Guys, let's not stoop to the level of pissing on Europe...
Cite where herein, anything posted suggests this, aside from the presentation of facts on "Moorish" rule in Spain. Could it be that stating the fact, is what you see as "pissing" on Europe; if so, how?
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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Your second map is incorrect regarding Ethiopia. The entirety of Eritrea was controlled and only the Dahlak Islands was Muslim and some of the inhabitants of Mitsiwa and Hergigo aka Arkiko at that time. Also the Somali coast wasn't all controlled by Arabs or Muslims, as Adal in 1500 was still a vassal to the Ethiopian Emperor, so I don't know how far to trust your maps.
-------------------- "Oh the sons of Ethiopia; observe with care; the country called Ethiopia is, first, your mother; second, your throne; third, your wife; fourth, your child; fifth, your grave." - Ras Alula Aba Nega. Posts: 1024 | Registered: Jun 2006
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Fact: Moors ruled Spain, spanning until about 1492.
Facts taught in colleges:
"Islamicized Africans (Moors) invade Spain, and rule it unti1 1492. The Moors brought agriculture, engineering, mining, industry, manufacturing, architecture, and scholarship, developing Spain into the center for culture and learning throughout Europe for almost 800 years until the fall of Granada in 1492."
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: Doug, your post was another example of taking a good idea and going to far with it. Europe started coming out of the dark ages by the year 1000. You may be aware that the first crusade, which began in 1095, resultued in Europeans holding the Holy Land for a century. It is absurd to contend that Europe revived because of some Moorish tribes. The Rubenstein book is outstanding history and covers the topic well. Lets also remeber that the Muslim 'Golden Age' did not last all that long. By the year 1000 it was clearly on the defensive.
Yea, the Muslim golden age lasted all of almost a millenium...not long at all .
And there you go with that 1000 again. Why do you stick to this date as the turning point of everything? Can you be a bit more precise..give us some examples from the Aristotle book. Tell us HOW by the year 1000 the Islamic Empire was on the defense (other than being attacked by the Knights Templar ad nauseum). Was there something going on in Europe that we are not aware of that was not connected with the advancements made by the Muslims? If so, please share...by all means.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: Doug, your post was another example of taking a good idea and going to far with it. Europe started coming out of the dark ages by the year 1000. You may be aware that the first crusade, which began in 1095, resultued in Europeans holding the Holy Land for a century. It is absurd to contend that Europe revived because of some Moorish tribes. The Rubenstein book is outstanding history and covers the topic well. Lets also remeber that the Muslim 'Golden Age' did not last all that long. By the year 1000 it was clearly on the defensive.
WHAT am I taking too far? Are you saying that in 1000AD, when the crusades started, that western Europe was the pinnacle of culture, civilization and science in the world? Of course not, because they werent. The point is that the Moors were PART of the spread of the Islamic Empire. Of course the Moors would have had brought civilization to Europe because the Islamic World spanned so much of the known world, from Europe and Africa to China, giving it access to some of the OLDEST cultures in the world. Therefore, the influence would have HAD to come from places OUTSIDE of Europe, since Europe did not HAVE anything in the way of culture or civilization that was SUPERIOR to those cultures they encountered. Therefore, the start of the crusades was the START of the process that would lead to Europe becoming "civilized". The crusades and the Moorish invasion were therefore CRUCIAL factors that helped spring Europe out of the doldrums of the dark ages into the Rennaissance. And so what if the Spanish kicked the Muslims out of Europe, does that mean that the achievements of the Moors in Europe dont COUNT? Are you trying to say that this therefore allows Europe to all of a sudden claim a heritage to civilization and culture that was NOT there before the Moors as if it came FROM Europe? No, it is not me taking anything to far, it is YOU trying to put Europe in the 11th and 12th century above those cultures that were FAR superior to it at the time.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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Hore, this is ridiculous. Europeans have ALWAYS defined the hallmarks of civilization as being science, math, architecture and philosophy. Therefore, if Western Europe HAD none of this in 700 AD, then HOW was it civilized? The Greeks and Romans BOTH called Western Europe savages and backward (and almost everyone else to wit). So what in the world are you talking about. THIS is the point I am trying to make. You want to elevate Western Europe in the 9th century OUTSIDE Moorish Spain to the status of "civilized", when MANY would disagree completely with calling the conditions in western Europe anything more than crude. This time period is NOT called the dark ages for nothing Hore. AND, philosophy was NOT reintroduced to Western Europe, since philosophy, math, science and culture did not COME from Western Europe. For Western Europe, this was the NAISSANCE of learning and culture. This is idea of renaissance can only apply to Greece and Italy, countries of Rome and Hellenic Greece. Again, you are trying to tie Western Europe to a tradition of CIVILIZATION that was FOREIGN to Western Europe and came LATE even to Mediterranean Europe. Therefore, Europe was LATE to the game of "civilization" and this game of civilization was nothing more than babaric savagery in the name of Empire, religion and the throne. And in that sense Europe was only MIMICKING the prior activities of the Greeks, Romans ans Muslims that came before, in trying to conquer the known world in the name of the European "Empire". Sure, Europe did go on to surpass the Muslim world, but that was a direct result of influence from Islam and other cultures that came before it. Europe did not SUDDENLY start the path to civilization in a vaccuum with NO outside influence. This is a farce.
The Islamic Empire was 5 times bigger than it was when the Moors first took Spain when they were kicked out in 1492. Hardly a civilization on a decline. The decline did come, but it wasnt in 1100.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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The social basis of European civilization was 'among those whom the Romans called the "barbarians" '
more,
William C. Bark, Origins of the Medieval world, ' ... for neither Greeks nor Romans did Europe mean much. Fear of Persia lent colour to the Greek attitude to continents, but the empire of Alexander the Great was in Asia, not Europe, while the remnants of this were conquered by a Rome
( sorry I have to go, more later today, and I'll edit this post)
Posts: 2198 | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Arwa: If it wasn't for the Muslims in Spain who translated Aristotle and other Greek scholars, Augustine's name would not echo in history books.
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Whenever trolls are given easy access to wiggle their way out of facts pointed out, using terms like "rediscovered", "revived", "dark age", and intentionally focusing on supposed translations of "Aristotle", or "Moors didn't rule Spanish culture," "Moors got displaced by Arabs" and so forth, it is time for somebody to bring the discussion back to the real point of the topic, which again was:
Fact: Visible Moorish involvment in the earlier Pan-Islamic rule and subsequent Moorish rulership of Spain, spans until about 1492.
A brief summation of Moorish influence as taught in colleges:
"Islamicized Africans (Moors) invade Spain, and rule it unti1 1492. The Moors brought agriculture, engineering, mining, industry, manufacturing, architecture, and scholarship, developing Spain into the center for culture and learning throughout Europe for almost 800 years until the fall of Granada in 1492."
...while just a dose of a few specific examples among the many, on Arab and Moorish influence in mathematics and other sciences have been already provided, that would turn:
Spain into the center for culture and learning throughout Europe
...which Europeans from elsewhere [particularly northwestern Europe], would take advantage of, to make social advances that they never had before. Trolls can obviously [futilely] try to evade or obscure these facts through examples of none-issue distractive antics as just provided above [which some might fall for], but of course cannot refute it. The trolls themselves know that these are facts, and all they can hope to do, is to have others fall for their distractive antics and hence, guide or control the discussants into the direction they wish the discussion to go. However, while some discussants are obviously easy prey, thankfully there are always a few of us who don't make life easy for trolls, by reminding and "tormenting" them with the real issues of the topic, and the established facts therein. Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: Super car does not have enough basic education to frame the question, much less offer an answer.
Trolls don't have the mental capacity to refute anything, except fill threads with spineless none-issue spams, like the above. It would be in your best interest to go back to stormfront. Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Whenever trolls are given easy access to wiggle their way out of facts pointed out, using terms like "rediscovered", "revived", "dark age", and intentionally focusing on supposed translations of "Aristotle", or "Moors didn't rule Spanish culture," "Moors got displaced by Arabs" and so forth, it is time for somebody to bring the discussion back to the real point of the topic, which again was...
Well, the Moors did translate Aristotle...to be more precise, it was a Moor named Ibn Rushd ( also called Averroes). The problem is when Horemheb says things like it was solely the rediscovering of Aristotle's work that brought about the Rennassiance...while totally ignoring everything the Moors did that ALSO revolutionized Europe forever (things I've mentioned ad nauseum already). The Moors had just as much to do with the Rennassiance as Aristotle...and if it weren't for the Moors there may have never been a translation anyway. Where do you think the Christians and Jews went to school at? Cordova and Toledo most likely.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Whenever trolls are given easy access to wiggle their way out of facts pointed out, using terms like "rediscovered", "revived", "dark age", and intentionally focusing on supposed translations of "Aristotle", or "Moors didn't rule Spanish culture," "Moors got displaced by Arabs" and so forth, it is time for somebody to bring the discussion back to the real point of the topic, which again was...
Well, the Moors did translate Aristotle...to be more precise, it was a Moor named Ibn Rushd ( also called Averroes).
And...? Read what you are responding to carefully, before you respond.
quote:King_Scorpion:
The problem is when Horemheb says things like it was solely the rediscovering of Aristotle's work that brought about the Rennassiance...while totally ignoring everything the Moors did that ALSO revolutionized Europe forever (things I've mentioned ad nauseum already).
Bingo! I wasn't sure when that point would be taken home.
quote:King_Scorpion:
The Moors had just as much to do with the Rennassiance as Aristotle...and if it weren't for the Moors there may have never been a translation anyway. Where do you think the Christians and Jews went to school at? Cordova and Toledo most likely
The last question should be posed to trolls in denial, not those who already know better, but I believe Dr Salah Zaimeche put it best; though redundancy of repetition can be annoying, it is something I found to be necessary on discussion boards:
Dr. Salah Zaimeche BA, MA, PhD;
Research Assistant, UMIST, Manchester, UK and Researcher at FSTC
First and foremost, the learning recovered, or found, or available, at that Renaissance of 16th-17th (another illogically based notion of western history) bears no resemblance to anything left by the Greeks. The mathematics, the medicine, the optics, the chemistry, the astronomy, geography, mechanics etc, of the 16th is centuries ahead of that left by the Greeks. Any person with the faintest knowledge of any such subjects can check this by looking at what was left by the Greeks and compare it with what was available in the 16th century, and even with what was available centuries up to the 14th. Anyone can thus question this notion of Greek learning recovered during the Renaissance.
**Furthermore, even supposing the Greeks had made some contribution in some of the sciences cited, what is the Greek contribution to the invention of paper, printing, farming techniques, irrigation, windmills, the compass, industrial production, glass making, cotton production, the system of numerals, trade mechanisms, paper money, the cheque? Modern finance as a whole, gardens, flowers, art of living, urban design, personal hygiene, and many more manifestations that compose our modern civilization?**
As for the notion that Greek learning had disappeared, this is another preposterous point repeatedly made by western ‘historians’.
Greek learning was available throughout the so-called Dark Ages in Byzantium and even in the ‘west’. Western historians never fail to insist that Muslims sought that Greek learning from Byzantine sources, and yet say that it has disappeared, which is impossible to square. Now, if such learning was available all along, why did ‘western scholars’ have to wait until they conquered Islamic lands in Sicily (11th), Toledo (Spain) (in the 11th) and in the east during the Crusades (11th -12th) before they started acquiring such ‘Greek’ learning? Why wait? And above all, why did Western translators of the 12th century, to whom we will return further on, chose to translate such sources? This is never explained by those historians who select miniscule or fragmentary pieces of evidence, often concoctions of their own, to build extensive theories (i.e. the Pirenne theory, the burning of the Alexandria library)
The Evidence
The real evidence from history shows that where the Greeks had left off, the Muslims had continued thus setting up the foundations of modern science and civilization. Before looking, albeit briefly, at some aspects of Muslim decisive influences, this author, like other Muslim historians, first and foremost, never ceases to acknowledge that, although the Muslims had made such contributions, the Islamic mind and soul that science and civilization are God given gifts to all people of equal abilities. The reason why the Muslims excelled at the time they did, and played the part they did is not due to any special status (as others appear to recognize as their own), but simply to circumstances current then, i.e., spur of Islamic values, which were very strong; driven by faith, Muslims were able to accomplish what they could never achieve under other circumstances as history has shown. Moreover, the Muslims had their own contributions but never denied their inheritance from other civilizations; particularly from the Chinese with whom they always had excellent relations…
…amongst the Muslims, only a number of such scientists were Arabs; most were instead Turks, Iranians, Spanish Muslims, Berbers, Kurds...thus a myriad of people and origins brought under the mantel of Islam, a religion open to all who sought to, and excelled in learning. And that was the first, and by far, the most multienthnic culture and civilisation that had ever existed, and not equalled in many respects, even today, not even in countires and institutions which keep adverstising their equal opportunity status. ..
Such observations are not conjured up by the present author to pursue his own agenda. They can be found amidst some of the best but often inaccessible and thus obscure ‘western historians’, or men of renown. Thus, Glubb states:
“ The indebtedness of Western Christendom to Arab civilization was systematically played down, if not completely denied. A tradition was built up, by censorhip and propaganda, that the Muslim imperialists had been mere barbarians and that the rebirth of learning in the West was derived directly from Roman and Greek sources alone, without any Arab intervention.”…
To go through Islamic impact on modern science and civilization in detail demands so vast a book that nobody has written yet, and it is much beyond the capability of this author to address this issue as extensively as he would wish. Notwithstanding, just some overall observations and points are raised here.
In order to highlight the true scale of Islamic impact, its crucial to look, however briefly, at the condition of western Christendom during those so-called Dark Ages, when, such were the contrasts, and such was the envy of western Christians of life in the Muslim world, that for Europeans, as Menocal puts it, ‘It must have at times appeared that wealth and comfort went hand in hand with the ability to read Arabic.’
Whilst universality of learning was a fundamental element in Islamic civilization, science was the ‘hobby of the masses, with paupers and kings competing to obtain knowledge…’ Whereas in western Christendom, as Haskins observes, ‘….relatively few could read and write, these being chiefly ecclesiastics and, save for the very moderate attainments of an individual parish priest, men of education were concentrated in certain definite groups separated from one another by wide stretches or rural ignorance. ‘
As Draper puts it, ‘Europe was hardly more enlightened than Caffraria is now, the Saracens were cultivating and even creating science. Their triumphs in philosophy, mathematics, astronomy, chemistry, medicine, proved to be more glorious, more durable and therefore more important than their military actions had been.’ Draper goes on to say that whilst ‘the Christian peasant, fever stricken or overtaken by accident, journeyed to the nearest saint’s shrine and expected a miracle; a knife of his surgeon.’ ‘The spurious medicine of ignorant and mercenary ecclesiastical charlatans. These operated by means of chants, relics, and incense; and their enormous gains were one of the chief sources of revenue to the parish and the monastery, and a corresponding burden on the people.’
Urbanity and wealth also belonged to the Muslims, at that time. In tenth century Cordova, there were 200,000 houses, 600 mosques, 900 public baths, the streets were paved with stones, and were cleaned, policed, and illuminated at night, water was brought to the public squares and to many of the houses by conduits, Islamic cities, as a whole with their mosque and madrassas, their churches, synagogues, and schools, their bathhouses, and other amenities, contained all that was needed for leading a religious and cultured life. Such Islamic cities boasted huge expanses of gardens.
Basra in Iraq was described by the early geographers as a veritable Venice, with mile after mile of canals criss-crossing the garden and orchards; Damascus with its 110,000 gardens, and in Turkey, Ettinghausen says flowers were a ‘devotion, if not mania.’ Whilst in Islamic towns and cities, trade flourished in all directions, and the wealth of its land were the objective of the preying and attacks of Christian pirates, the view from Western Christendom was hardly flattering. So big was the contrast, as Scott puts it, that the magnificent architectural works of ‘Arab genius were attributed to an infernal agency, as beyond the efforts of unaided human power,’ an opinion still enlightened by the Spanish peasantry, who firmly believe that the Muslim palaces ‘were constructed by evil spirits.’ This account by Draper tells that:
“As late as 16th century England, there were highwaymen on the roads, pirates on the rivers, vermin in abundance in the clothing and beds…The population, sparse as it was, was perpetually thinned by pestilence and want…” - Draper
As similar state of wretchedness prevailed everywhere else. Scott tells how:
“ In Paris there were no pavements until the thirteenth century; in London none until the fourteenth; the streets of both capitals were receptacles of filth, and often impassable; at night shrouded with inky darkness; at all times dominated by outlaws; the haunt of the footpad, the nursery of the pestilence, the source of every disease, the scene of every crime” - Scott
In the Spanish Asturias at the time of the Muslim arrival (early 8th century), Scott states that,
“The dwellings were rude hovels constructed of stones and unhewn timber, thatched with straw floored with rushes and provided with a hole in the roof to enable the smoke to escape; their walls and ceilings were smeared with soot and grease, and every corner reeked with filth and with vermin. The owners of these habitations were, in appearance and intelligence, scarcely removed from the condition of savages. They dressed in sheepskins and the hides of wild beasts, which unchanged, remained in one family for many generations. The salutary habit of ablution was never practiced by them. Their garments were never cleansed, and were worn as long as their tattered fragments held together.” - Scott
From this alone, it seems extremely odd how, instead of gratitude, western historians, including Albornoz and Spanish historians of his ilk, deny the Islamic influence. -
---
Of note, Dr Salah Zaimeche says:
learning recovered, or found, or available, at that Renaissance of 16th-17th (another illogically based notion of western history) bears no resemblance to anything left by the Greeks.
The mathematics, the medicine, the optics, the chemistry, the astronomy, geography, mechanics etc, of the 16th is centuries ahead of that left by the Greeks.
Joseph Hell provides an example of this in his publication:
"A new school of thought emerged in the late 13th century that in itself constitutes a revolution. It is referred to as the Maragha Revolution, and it has been described as "an essential link to Copernican astronomy without which Copernican astronomy will be hard to explain" [Anon.]. The Maragha Revolution was, to put it simply, a rejection of many of Ptolemy's statements, and a sudden surge of new ideas and theories to replace incorrect Ptolemaic assertions. Thus, it turns out that the Arabs had come to many of the same conclusions as Copernicus well before Copernicus' time, although the astronomers of the Arabic Maragha school were still working within the confines of a geocentric model.
Nonetheless, these astronomers were the ones who corrected many of Ptolemy's mistakes and made the first real moves towards the final realization of the true workings of the solar system. It is for this reason that many have firmly declared that Copernicus was influenced by the Arabic Maragha school."
Ps - I for one, think it is misleading to equate "Moor" with "Arab", though the Moorish rule in Spain is directly linked to the expansion of Islam in North Africa. I tend to use "Moor" within its original context, i.e. corresponding to North Africans, particularly west Africans.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: the film does not say that Islam is the foundation of modern spain, nor does any sane person or european historian.
Do I sense any bias and I dare say prejudice against Muslims??
Remember, Islamic civilizations were at its peak in both scholarship and science while Europe was at its low during its "Dark Ages".
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Whenever trolls are given easy access to wiggle their way out of facts pointed out, using terms like "rediscovered", "revived", "dark age", and intentionally focusing on supposed translations of "Aristotle", or "Moors didn't rule Spanish culture," "Moors got displaced by Arabs" and so forth, it is time for somebody to bring the discussion back to the real point of the topic, which again was...
Well, the Moors did translate Aristotle...to be more precise, it was a Moor named Ibn Rushd ( also called Averroes).
And...? Read what you are responding to carefully, before you respond.
quote:King_Scorpion:
The problem is when Horemheb says things like it was solely the rediscovering of Aristotle's work that brought about the Rennassiance...while totally ignoring everything the Moors did that ALSO revolutionized Europe forever (things I've mentioned ad nauseum already).
Bingo! I wasn't sure when that point would be taken home.
quote:King_Scorpion:
The Moors had just as much to do with the Rennassiance as Aristotle...and if it weren't for the Moors there may have never been a translation anyway. Where do you think the Christians and Jews went to school at? Cordova and Toledo most likely
The last question should be posed to trolls in denial, not those who already know better, but I believe Dr Salah Zaimeche put it best; though redundancy of repetition can be annoying, it is something I found to be necessary on discussion boards:
Dr. Salah Zaimeche BA, MA, PhD;
Research Assistant, UMIST, Manchester, UK and Researcher at FSTC
First and foremost, the learning recovered, or found, or available, at that Renaissance of 16th-17th (another illogically based notion of western history) bears no resemblance to anything left by the Greeks. The mathematics, the medicine, the optics, the chemistry, the astronomy, geography, mechanics etc, of the 16th is centuries ahead of that left by the Greeks. Any person with the faintest knowledge of any such subjects can check this by looking at what was left by the Greeks and compare it with what was available in the 16th century, and even with what was available centuries up to the 14th. Anyone can thus question this notion of Greek learning recovered during the Renaissance.
**Furthermore, even supposing the Greeks had made some contribution in some of the sciences cited, what is the Greek contribution to the invention of paper, printing, farming techniques, irrigation, windmills, the compass, industrial production, glass making, cotton production, the system of numerals, trade mechanisms, paper money, the cheque? Modern finance as a whole, gardens, flowers, art of living, urban design, personal hygiene, and many more manifestations that compose our modern civilization?**
As for the notion that Greek learning had disappeared, this is another preposterous point repeatedly made by western ‘historians’.
Greek learning was available throughout the so-called Dark Ages in Byzantium and even in the ‘west’. Western historians never fail to insist that Muslims sought that Greek learning from Byzantine sources, and yet say that it has disappeared, which is impossible to square. Now, if such learning was available all along, why did ‘western scholars’ have to wait until they conquered Islamic lands in Sicily (11th), Toledo (Spain) (in the 11th) and in the east during the Crusades (11th -12th) before they started acquiring such ‘Greek’ learning? Why wait? And above all, why did Western translators of the 12th century, to whom we will return further on, chose to translate such sources? This is never explained by those historians who select miniscule or fragmentary pieces of evidence, often concoctions of their own, to build extensive theories (i.e. the Pirenne theory, the burning of the Alexandria library)
The Evidence
The real evidence from history shows that where the Greeks had left off, the Muslims had continued thus setting up the foundations of modern science and civilization. Before looking, albeit briefly, at some aspects of Muslim decisive influences, this author, like other Muslim historians, first and foremost, never ceases to acknowledge that, although the Muslims had made such contributions, the Islamic mind and soul that science and civilization are God given gifts to all people of equal abilities. The reason why the Muslims excelled at the time they did, and played the part they did is not due to any special status (as others appear to recognize as their own), but simply to circumstances current then, i.e., spur of Islamic values, which were very strong; driven by faith, Muslims were able to accomplish what they could never achieve under other circumstances as history has shown. Moreover, the Muslims had their own contributions but never denied their inheritance from other civilizations; particularly from the Chinese with whom they always had excellent relations…
…amongst the Muslims, only a number of such scientists were Arabs; most were instead Turks, Iranians, Spanish Muslims, Berbers, Kurds...thus a myriad of people and origins brought under the mantel of Islam, a religion open to all who sought to, and excelled in learning. And that was the first, and by far, the most multienthnic culture and civilisation that had ever existed, and not equalled in many respects, even today, not even in countires and institutions which keep adverstising their equal opportunity status. ..
Such observations are not conjured up by the present author to pursue his own agenda. They can be found amidst some of the best but often inaccessible and thus obscure ‘western historians’, or men of renown. Thus, Glubb states:
“ The indebtedness of Western Christendom to Arab civilization was systematically played down, if not completely denied. A tradition was built up, by censorhip and propaganda, that the Muslim imperialists had been mere barbarians and that the rebirth of learning in the West was derived directly from Roman and Greek sources alone, without any Arab intervention.”…
To go through Islamic impact on modern science and civilization in detail demands so vast a book that nobody has written yet, and it is much beyond the capability of this author to address this issue as extensively as he would wish. Notwithstanding, just some overall observations and points are raised here.
In order to highlight the true scale of Islamic impact, its crucial to look, however briefly, at the condition of western Christendom during those so-called Dark Ages, when, such were the contrasts, and such was the envy of western Christians of life in the Muslim world, that for Europeans, as Menocal puts it, ‘It must have at times appeared that wealth and comfort went hand in hand with the ability to read Arabic.’
Whilst universality of learning was a fundamental element in Islamic civilization, science was the ‘hobby of the masses, with paupers and kings competing to obtain knowledge…’ Whereas in western Christendom, as Haskins observes, ‘….relatively few could read and write, these being chiefly ecclesiastics and, save for the very moderate attainments of an individual parish priest, men of education were concentrated in certain definite groups separated from one another by wide stretches or rural ignorance. ‘
As Draper puts it, ‘Europe was hardly more enlightened than Caffraria is now, the Saracens were cultivating and even creating science. Their triumphs in philosophy, mathematics, astronomy, chemistry, medicine, proved to be more glorious, more durable and therefore more important than their military actions had been.’ Draper goes on to say that whilst ‘the Christian peasant, fever stricken or overtaken by accident, journeyed to the nearest saint’s shrine and expected a miracle; a knife of his surgeon.’ ‘The spurious medicine of ignorant and mercenary ecclesiastical charlatans. These operated by means of chants, relics, and incense; and their enormous gains were one of the chief sources of revenue to the parish and the monastery, and a corresponding burden on the people.’
Urbanity and wealth also belonged to the Muslims, at that time. In tenth century Cordova, there were 200,000 houses, 600 mosques, 900 public baths, the streets were paved with stones, and were cleaned, policed, and illuminated at night, water was brought to the public squares and to many of the houses by conduits, Islamic cities, as a whole with their mosque and madrassas, their churches, synagogues, and schools, their bathhouses, and other amenities, contained all that was needed for leading a religious and cultured life. Such Islamic cities boasted huge expanses of gardens.
Basra in Iraq was described by the early geographers as a veritable Venice, with mile after mile of canals criss-crossing the garden and orchards; Damascus with its 110,000 gardens, and in Turkey, Ettinghausen says flowers were a ‘devotion, if not mania.’ Whilst in Islamic towns and cities, trade flourished in all directions, and the wealth of its land were the objective of the preying and attacks of Christian pirates, the view from Western Christendom was hardly flattering. So big was the contrast, as Scott puts it, that the magnificent architectural works of ‘Arab genius were attributed to an infernal agency, as beyond the efforts of unaided human power,’ an opinion still enlightened by the Spanish peasantry, who firmly believe that the Muslim palaces ‘were constructed by evil spirits.’ This account by Draper tells that:
“As late as 16th century England, there were highwaymen on the roads, pirates on the rivers, vermin in abundance in the clothing and beds…The population, sparse as it was, was perpetually thinned by pestilence and want…” - Draper
As similar state of wretchedness prevailed everywhere else. Scott tells how:
“ In Paris there were no pavements until the thirteenth century; in London none until the fourteenth; the streets of both capitals were receptacles of filth, and often impassable; at night shrouded with inky darkness; at all times dominated by outlaws; the haunt of the footpad, the nursery of the pestilence, the source of every disease, the scene of every crime” - Scott
In the Spanish Asturias at the time of the Muslim arrival (early 8th century), Scott states that,
“The dwellings were rude hovels constructed of stones and unhewn timber, thatched with straw floored with rushes and provided with a hole in the roof to enable the smoke to escape; their walls and ceilings were smeared with soot and grease, and every corner reeked with filth and with vermin. The owners of these habitations were, in appearance and intelligence, scarcely removed from the condition of savages. They dressed in sheepskins and the hides of wild beasts, which unchanged, remained in one family for many generations. The salutary habit of ablution was never practiced by them. Their garments were never cleansed, and were worn as long as their tattered fragments held together.” - Scott
From this alone, it seems extremely odd how, instead of gratitude, western historians, including Albornoz and Spanish historians of his ilk, deny the Islamic influence. -
---
Of note, Dr Salah Zaimeche says:
learning recovered, or found, or available, at that Renaissance of 16th-17th (another illogically based notion of western history) bears no resemblance to anything left by the Greeks.
The mathematics, the medicine, the optics, the chemistry, the astronomy, geography, mechanics etc, of the 16th is centuries ahead of that left by the Greeks.
Joseph Hell provides an example of this in his publication:
"A new school of thought emerged in the late 13th century that in itself constitutes a revolution. It is referred to as the Maragha Revolution, and it has been described as "an essential link to Copernican astronomy without which Copernican astronomy will be hard to explain" [Anon.]. The Maragha Revolution was, to put it simply, a rejection of many of Ptolemy's statements, and a sudden surge of new ideas and theories to replace incorrect Ptolemaic assertions. Thus, it turns out that the Arabs had come to many of the same conclusions as Copernicus well before Copernicus' time, although the astronomers of the Arabic Maragha school were still working within the confines of a geocentric model.
Nonetheless, these astronomers were the ones who corrected many of Ptolemy's mistakes and made the first real moves towards the final realization of the true workings of the solar system. It is for this reason that many have firmly declared that Copernicus was influenced by the Arabic Maragha school."
Ps - I for one, think it is misleading to equate "Moor" with "Arab", though the Moorish rule in Spain is directly linked to the expansion of Islam in North Africa. I tend to use "Moor" within its original context, i.e. corresponding to North Africans, particularly west Africans.
Great post Supercar! And by the way, my whole post wasn't aimed at you...it was really just that first sentence. My point was because you said "supposed translations" of Aristotle as if it didn't happen. Maybe I just misunderstood you. But we are in agreement on this issue 100% though.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
King, This is voodoo scholarship. Nobody is going to accept these wacked out radical revisionist views of history. Western civilization (all of it) is based on the greeks and romans. You see it right in front of your nose all over the west. Islam had a great era and their golden age (700-1000) should be admired but we should not be irresponsible in looking at the events of history. I have given you some excellent tools to get you started, whether you use them is up to you.
-------------------- God Bless President Bush Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: King, This is voodoo scholarship. Nobody is going to accept these wacked out radical revisionist views of history.Western civilization (all of it) is based on the greeks and romans. You see it right in front of your nose all over the west. Islam had a great era and their golden age (700-1000) should be admired but we should not be irresponsible in looking at the events of history. I have given you some excellent tools to get you started, whether you use them is up to you.
No...it isn't.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
trivia question: Where did Greece and Rome get their stuffs from ?
All right, the facts are settled. Since we all know that the Professor has made up his mind, let's continue on with any more possible contributions to Topic of discussion.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote: By the twelfth century, Santiago de Compostela, patron saint of the Catholic fight against Islam in Spain, had won the mighty masculine epithet "Matamoros," or "Killer of Moors." No documentation exists anywhere of a medieval feminine equivalent, presumably because female Muslims were included in that collective honorific. However, some dispute whether Christians might have borrowed the word mata (kill) from the Arabic language to honor Santiago. Thus, mata might not be from matar (or, earlier, from mattus, a Latin root), but really from the Arabic verb mata, which means not to kill, but to die.3 Spanish Christians, hybrid to their medieval core, were actually allowing their saintly slayer to say "Death to the Muslims" at least partially in the enemy tongue. If this derivation is correct, then it represents a hybridized Christian linguistic acquisition, which must have been doubly effective against an enemy who heard the battle cry and understood the Arabic component to herald their violent demise. The appropriation of a Spanish patron saint's militaristic power as a symbol, and the contorted route Matamoras took in the United States as a result of the nationalist celebration of the defeat of Mexico, is what makes their naming significant.
The Spanish word moros, as a collective noun, is a Latin derivative in Spanish, but for Muslims it was merely an insult about their foreignness, a collective noun for those people who came from North Africa, and also a reference to black skin. The Muslims of Spain included people of various ethnicities. Individual tribes of Berbers from North Africa had their own distinct tribal names, and ethnic Arabs took pride in their genealogical tribal heritage as well. None of these members of the Islamic faith referred to themselves by the pejorative term Moros, or Moors. In parallel fashion, Spanish conquerors in the Americas also perceived all Indigenous peoples as barbarians. Thus, the generic term Indios followed the pejorative categorization Moros as a marker of Spanish superiority, a token of the eradication of difference among the conquered Other on both sides of the Atlantic. Misrepresentation, theft, and invention accompanied the process of conquest, both in Spain and the Americas. The potent symbolic power to name and eradicate the identity of the conquered is the ultimate prize of military conquest, a victorious trophy that would be reflected in place names on both side of the U.S.-Mexico border.
Source: A Journal of Women Studies 25.1 (2004) 148-164
Inventing Matamoras Gender and the Forgotten Islamic Past in the United States of America
Posts: 2198 | Registered: Jun 2006
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Great post, Supercar. I wanted to add more, but so far you said it best.
Horemheb
I see, that you have made up your mind . Fair enough.
But do us a favour next you come up with a statement; voodoo scholarship remember to provide evidence, ok?
It is my pleasure to lay the facts out there, and let the perceptive take understanding from there. Who cares what a stormfront nut thinks? That is their goal; to spread information contrary to what they, themselves, actually believe deep down.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Supercar: It is my pleasure to lay the facts out there, and let the perceptive take understanding from there. Who cares what a stormfront nut thinks? That is their goal; to spread information contrary to what they, themselves, actually believe deep down.
quote:Originally posted by Arwa: If it wasn't for the Muslims in Spain who translated Aristotle and other Greek scholars, Augustine's name would not echo in history books.
and pay attention how Spaniards today gradually appreciating their Islamic legacy.
This is not a biased film, listen to what Spaniards selfs are saying.
BTW, wasn't Augustine a North African?
This video should be the end all right here!
One thing I don't like about it though is how it trys to portray ALL Moors prior to the Almoravids as Arabs. Leaving out the fact that the majority of the invading force of Muslims came from Africa.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Arwa: If it wasn't for the Muslims in Spain who translated Aristotle and other Greek scholars, Augustine's name would not echo in history books.
and pay attention how Spaniards today gradually appreciating their Islamic legacy.
This is not a biased film, listen to what Spaniards selfs are saying.
BTW, wasn't Augustine a North African?
This video should be the end all right here!
One thing I don't like about it though is how it trys to portray ALL Moors prior to the Almoravids as Arabs. Leaving out the fact that the majority of the invading force of Muslims came from Africa.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Remember, Islamic civilizations were at its peak in both scholarship and science while Europe was at its low during its "Dark Ages".
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