quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: One thing I don't like about it though is how it trys to portray ALL Moors prior to the Almoravids as Arabs. Leaving out the fact that the majority of the invading force of Muslims came from Africa.
Hello King,
Yes, I do agree with you, but I think it's a giant steep that they named the film " When the Moors Ruled in Europe"
Posts: 2198 | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Lets not forget that if not for the Moors Spain as we know it would not exist. Spain gained not only intellectually from the reconquest of the Moorish Empires but economically, it was the Moors that made Spain an important location in the established trading routes of the time. first with Abd Rahman who virtually brought Spain known as Al Andalusia at the time from nothing more than a decayed province of Rome to an independent nation state with established trade routes and advanced trade routed and agriculture. The so called Celto Iberians had ample time to establish something of significance in the Iberian region, what they did is bow to the Roman Emperors, So when Rome fell the so called Celto Iberians FELL also into backward Ignorance. The Moors EFFECTIVELY made Spain a region that could hold its own both economically and intellectually...PERIOD. The fact that the Rahmans were able to hold off the dominant Abbasids as well as internal threat to usher in a Zenith of Al-Andalus and the fact that the ame so called Celto Iberians converted to Islam is DROVES shows how effective the Moors were and how influential they were to the indigenous white European population.
This is why I laugh when people fight over the Moors color of skin. That is like asking what color of skin Christians are...lol. The Moors in Al Andalus were of African origin, they were people of swarthy hue....When they invaded Iberia they ruled over people Paler and whiter in skin. No matter if the said ruling class were Lighter skinned or Saharan Berbers they were Darker than the population they controlled. The fact is that the majority of the Moors during its height were nothing but indigenous Iberians(Whites) who were now muslims. They fought for the Moorish cause, prayed to allah, revered Mecca, and more importantly...ILL REPEAT...FOUGHT FOR THE MOORISH CAUSE!!! This is why on that site that Doug posted they are images where whites out number black moors. Most of the Moors were whites by the time of the reconquest!!! These moors were allowed to convert back to christianity while the Arab, African, and Jewish Moors were expulsed out of Spain.
There is a famous fresco with a Bishop converting the Moors....It basically shows the White Iberians converting to Christianity to avoid persecution and to fit in with the new dominant culture.!!!
Posts: 8806 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Eurocentrics can not handle the fact that for most of human history they were the toilet paper of civilization, nothing more than barbaric, discusting, hoorid people. Even into the Modern age they STILL are Barbaric, even with the knowledge and wisdom they stole from Asia, African, and Arabic cultures they STILL ARE BARBARIC.
The fact that people that threw sewage into their own drinking supplies(during the so called modern era), created cities like London that were nothing but Garbage filled, rat infested, dirty, disease stricken dumps shows just how ironic the Eurocentric doctrine is. These are the same people that Maintain that their culture it the Blessed and right culture. They believe that they some how rose up to created a Modern civilization....and if anyone dares show how wrong they are they label them as Afro or Ethnocentric. The facts are that Europe was NOT the cradle of civilization, Europe was not a major played in the Early stages of civilization, and therefore was not needed to bring man kind into the Industrial , Technology and Space age. Rome was even a ass corrupt civilization that did nothing but steal and tax the culturally advanced nations of Egypt and Mesopotamia. The Whore of Babylon that sits on many waters translates to nothing more that Rome was nothing more than a corrupt version of Babylon...meaning Rome modeled itself after Mesopotamian cultures and ruled by harnessing its military might.
Moorish Spain and the Islamic Intellectuals show just how the world could have went on with out Europe. The Moors had advanced Medical, Mechanical, and intellectual advances.
Posts: 8806 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
History as practiced by most cultures, is propaganda. The Egyptians did it, the Babylonians did it and everyone else did it. The European propaganda machine that is history has purposely distorted world history and divided it up into chunks that make Europe seem great in comparison and somehow the first to make commerce and culture global. But in truth this is not the case. The Moors represents the true global world of commerce and culture that existed in the first millenium A.D. of which Western Europe was not a major player. From Africa to the Levant, South Asia and the Far East there were networks of trade, culture and commerce that laid the framework for a global exchange of ideas and technologies that the "west" had no idea of. But due to the propaganda that is European history, they always start off by saying they were the "first" to travel to the Far East, when the Moors and the rest of the Mediterranean, including some Europeans, had been trading with China and traveling there for hundreds of years! Not only that, but Marco Polo sailed east on ships that were TINY compared to those of the East, especially the huge war ships and treasure ships of the Chinese, many of which were river boats driven with paddles like later steam boats in the U.S.A. This is why digging and doing research on world history directly often gives tremendous rewards in discovering things purposely covered up.
But bottom line, yes there were many black Africans among the Moors in Spain and they were part of a wider world of civilization and culture that was introduced to Europe. But lets not over romanticize this time period, as there was as much blood thirsty war fare all over the world of the time even before Europe began its voyages of "discovery".
And again, there is no doubt among Europeans and within European culture about the meaning of the word Moor and the Moorish impact on European culture:
quote: The origin of the word 'Morris' is lost in obscurity. The earliest documentary references are mainly from Church accounts in the early 1500's - "Silver paper for the Mores-dawncers - 7d". "for VI peyre of shones for ye Mors dauncers - 4d" (1509/1510). It was certainly thriving in Shakespeare's time; Will Kemp's 'Nine Daies Wonder' was a Morris marathon from London to Norwich in 1600.
One popular theory is that when the original name and meaning of the rite were no longer remembered, the dance was called Moorish or Morris because the current word at that time, for black men, was Moor. One school of thought claims the dances came from Spain having been introduced by the invading Moors. Another theory points to evidence of similar dances in England, long before the Moors, derived from the Druids' Maris dances, in celebration of the god Maris.
The Morris dance or Moorish dance troops of Europe are one example of this legacy, which began the tradition of black face dance troupes and minstrels in Europe and America, all of which is based on the imitation of and/or mockery of black African culture.
And another example of the legacy of Moorish Islam's impact on Europe is the use of the Saber in military ritual, dress and custom, which is a DIRECT transmission from the Islamic cultures of the east. This includes wearing sabers, using sabers in ceremonial events and the use of sabers in military parades and drills.
Posts: 8898 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: History as practiced by most cultures, is propaganda. The Egyptians did it, the Babylonians did it and everyone else did it. The European propaganda machine that is history has purposely distorted world history and divided it up into chunks that make Europe seem great in comparison and somehow the first to make commerce and culture global. But in truth this is not the case. The Moors represents the true global world of commerce and culture that existed in the first millenium A.D. of which Western Europe was not a major player. From Africa to the Levant, South Asia and the Far East there were networks of trade, culture and commerce that laid the framework for a global exchange of ideas and technologies that the "west" had no idea of. But due to the propaganda that is European history, they always start off by saying they were the "first" to travel to the Far East, when the Moors and the rest of the Mediterranean, including some Europeans, had been trading with China and traveling there for hundreds of years! Not only that, but Marco Polo sailed east on ships that were TINY compared to those of the East, especially the huge war ships and treasure ships of the Chinese, many of which were river boats driven with paddles like later steam boats in the U.S.A. This is why digging and doing research on world history directly often gives tremendous rewards in discovering things purposely covered up.
But bottom line, yes there were many black Africans among the Moors in Spain and they were part of a wider world of civilization and culture that was introduced to Europe. But lets not over romanticize this time period, as there was as much blood thirsty war fare all over the world of the time even before Europe began its voyages of "discovery".
And again, there is no doubt among Europeans and within European culture about the meaning of the word Moor and the Moorish impact on European culture:
quote: The origin of the word 'Morris' is lost in obscurity. The earliest documentary references are mainly from Church accounts in the early 1500's - "Silver paper for the Mores-dawncers - 7d". "for VI peyre of shones for ye Mors dauncers - 4d" (1509/1510). It was certainly thriving in Shakespeare's time; Will Kemp's 'Nine Daies Wonder' was a Morris marathon from London to Norwich in 1600.
One popular theory is that when the original name and meaning of the rite were no longer remembered, the dance was called Moorish or Morris because the current word at that time, for black men, was Moor. One school of thought claims the dances came from Spain having been introduced by the invading Moors. Another theory points to evidence of similar dances in England, long before the Moors, derived from the Druids' Maris dances, in celebration of the god Maris.
The Morris dance or Moorish dance troops of Europe are one example of this legacy, which began the tradition of black face dance troupes and minstrels in Europe and America, all of which is based on the imitation of and/or mockery of black African culture.
And another example of the legacy of Moorish Islam's impact on Europe is the use of the Saber in military ritual, dress and custom, which is a DIRECT transmission from the Islamic cultures of the east. This includes wearing sabers, using sabers in ceremonial events and the use of sabers in military parades and drills.
The Moors were a diverse race of people as As Spain was linked in trade to places like Mali and even Ghana as early as the late 10th and def. the ealy 11th centuries...as some of the earliest references to Ghana claim the Nations capital clearly Muslim resorts. Also for Al Bakri to obtain so much information on Ghana means the two Nations of Al- Andalusia and Ghana were in friendly relations.
What baffles me is that people take offense to the idea of Moorish Spain being a part of African history,...when some of the key figures in Islam its self involved Black people as the same with Christianity and the Judaic faith its self. Islam and the spread of the said religion like Moorish Spain involved the unification and cooperation of many different races of people.
And yes, lets NOT over romanticize this era, The Muslims were part of blood baths and pillaging like Euros....but the fact we both can agree on is that Islamic nations were the first and maybe the only to be governed where people of different faiths, races, and origins were able to make a name for themselves. E.X...the Fatimids, Al-Andalusia, The Abbasids ..etc.
Posts: 8806 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: Lets not forget that if not for the Moors Spain as we know it would not exist. Spain gained not only intellectually from the reconquest of the Moorish Empires but economically, it was the Moors that made Spain an important location in the established trading routes of the time. first with Abd Rahman who virtually brought Spain known as Al Andalusia at the time from nothing more than a decayed province of Rome to an independent nation state with established trade routes and advanced trade routed and agriculture. The so called Celto Iberians had ample time to establish something of significance in the Iberian region, what they did is bow to the Roman Emperors, So when Rome fell the so called Celto Iberians FELL also into backward Ignorance. The Moors EFFECTIVELY made Spain a region that could hold its own both economically and intellectually...PERIOD. The fact that the Rahmans were able to hold off the dominant Abbasids as well as internal threat to usher in a Zenith of Al-Andalus and the fact that the ame so called Celto Iberians converted to Islam is DROVES shows how effective the Moors were and how influential they were to the indigenous white European population.
This is why I laugh when people fight over the Moors color of skin. That is like asking what color of skin Christians are...lol. The Moors in Al Andalus were of African origin, they were people of swarthy hue....When they invaded Iberia they ruled over people Paler and whiter in skin. No matter if the said ruling class were Lighter skinned or Saharan Berbers they were Darker than the population they controlled. The fact is that the majority of the Moors during its height were nothing but indigenous Iberians(Whites) who were now muslims. They fought for the Moorish cause, prayed to allah, revered Mecca, and more importantly...ILL REPEAT...FOUGHT FOR THE MOORISH CAUSE!!! This is why on that site that Doug posted they are images where whites out number black moors. Most of the Moors were whites by the time of the reconquest!!! These moors were allowed to convert back to christianity while the Arab, African, and Jewish Moors were expulsed out of Spain.
There is a famous fresco with a Bishop converting the Moors....It basically shows the White Iberians converting to Christianity to avoid persecution and to fit in with the new dominant culture.!!!
You're right. There was never a mass migration of Africans and Arabs to totally change the complexion of Spain. There was some migration, but there was also a lot of intermarriage between the native Iberian population and Moors.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
King_Scorpion wrote: ----------------------------------- You're right. There was never a mass migration of Africans and Arabs to totally change the complexion of Spain. There was some migration, but there was also a lot of intermarriage between the native Iberian population and Moors. -----------------------------------
On this forum those who do not back up their writings with facts and evidence are relegated as non-intellectuals who insanely believe if they repeat their "opinions" often enough, those with intelligence will become unintelligent enough to believe their wild claims.
This is a scholarly and intellectual forum. We do not accept wishful opinion here, just facts and evidence. So it is beholden upon you to provide said facts and evidence to support your statements.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: History as practiced by most cultures, is propaganda. The Egyptians did it, the Babylonians did it and everyone else did it. The European propaganda machine that is history has purposely distorted world history and divided it up into chunks that make Europe seem great in comparison and somehow the first to make commerce and culture global. But in truth this is not the case. The Moors represents the true global world of commerce and culture that existed in the first millenium A.D. of which Western Europe was not a major player. From Africa to the Levant, South Asia and the Far East there were networks of trade, culture and commerce that laid the framework for a global exchange of ideas and technologies that the "west" had no idea of. But due to the propaganda that is European history, they always start off by saying they were the "first" to travel to the Far East, when the Moors and the rest of the Mediterranean, including some Europeans, had been trading with China and traveling there for hundreds of years! Not only that, but Marco Polo sailed east on ships that were TINY compared to those of the East, especially the huge war ships and treasure ships of the Chinese, many of which were river boats driven with paddles like later steam boats in the U.S.A. This is why digging and doing research on world history directly often gives tremendous rewards in discovering things purposely covered up.
But bottom line, yes there were many black Africans among the Moors in Spain and they were part of a wider world of civilization and culture that was introduced to Europe. But lets not over romanticize this time period, as there was as much blood thirsty war fare all over the world of the time even before Europe began its voyages of "discovery".
And again, there is no doubt among Europeans and within European culture about the meaning of the word Moor and the Moorish impact on European culture:
quote: The origin of the word 'Morris' is lost in obscurity. The earliest documentary references are mainly from Church accounts in the early 1500's - "Silver paper for the Mores-dawncers - 7d". "for VI peyre of shones for ye Mors dauncers - 4d" (1509/1510). It was certainly thriving in Shakespeare's time; Will Kemp's 'Nine Daies Wonder' was a Morris marathon from London to Norwich in 1600.
One popular theory is that when the original name and meaning of the rite were no longer remembered, the dance was called Moorish or Morris because the current word at that time, for black men, was Moor. One school of thought claims the dances came from Spain having been introduced by the invading Moors. Another theory points to evidence of similar dances in England, long before the Moors, derived from the Druids' Maris dances, in celebration of the god Maris.
The Morris dance or Moorish dance troops of Europe are one example of this legacy, which began the tradition of black face dance troupes and minstrels in Europe and America, all of which is based on the imitation of and/or mockery of black African culture.
And another example of the legacy of Moorish Islam's impact on Europe is the use of the Saber in military ritual, dress and custom, which is a DIRECT transmission from the Islamic cultures of the east. This includes wearing sabers, using sabers in ceremonial events and the use of sabers in military parades and drills.
The Moors were a diverse race of people as As Spain was linked in trade to places like Mali and even Ghana as early as the late 10th and def. the ealy 11th centuries...as some of the earliest references to Ghana claim the Nations capital clearly Muslim resorts. Also for Al Bakri to obtain so much information on Ghana means the two Nations of Al- Andalusia and Ghana were in friendly relations.
What baffles me is that people take offense to the idea of Moorish Spain being a part of African history,...when some of the key figures in Islam its self involved Black people as the same with Christianity and the Judaic faith its self. Islam and the spread of the said religion like Moorish Spain involved the unification and cooperation of many different races of people.
And yes, lets NOT over romanticize this era, The Muslims were part of blood baths and pillaging like Euros....but the fact we both can agree on is that Islamic nations were the first and maybe the only to be governed where people of different faiths, races, and origins were able to make a name for themselves. E.X...the Fatimids, Al-Andalusia, The Abbasids ..etc.
Many empires that existed prior to Islam had many nations, cultures and religions under their helm. This did not start with Islam. What Islam did is set the stage for religious imperialism, first under Islam and then under Christianity. Prior to that Empires were based purely on national and cultural identity and power not religion.
Posts: 8898 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by argyle104: King_Scorpion wrote:
Shut up. I've been here since 2004 and everyone knows me (the usuals anyway). I've also been talking about this topic for a long time. But hey, no one is forcing you to believe me.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: History as practiced by most cultures, is propaganda. The Egyptians did it, the Babylonians did it and everyone else did it. The European propaganda machine that is history has purposely distorted world history and divided it up into chunks that make Europe seem great in comparison and somehow the first to make commerce and culture global. But in truth this is not the case. The Moors represents the true global world of commerce and culture that existed in the first millenium A.D. of which Western Europe was not a major player. From Africa to the Levant, South Asia and the Far East there were networks of trade, culture and commerce that laid the framework for a global exchange of ideas and technologies that the "west" had no idea of. But due to the propaganda that is European history, they always start off by saying they were the "first" to travel to the Far East, when the Moors and the rest of the Mediterranean, including some Europeans, had been trading with China and traveling there for hundreds of years! Not only that, but Marco Polo sailed east on ships that were TINY compared to those of the East, especially the huge war ships and treasure ships of the Chinese, many of which were river boats driven with paddles like later steam boats in the U.S.A. This is why digging and doing research on world history directly often gives tremendous rewards in discovering things purposely covered up.
But bottom line, yes there were many black Africans among the Moors in Spain and they were part of a wider world of civilization and culture that was introduced to Europe. But lets not over romanticize this time period, as there was as much blood thirsty war fare all over the world of the time even before Europe began its voyages of "discovery".
And again, there is no doubt among Europeans and within European culture about the meaning of the word Moor and the Moorish impact on European culture:
quote: The origin of the word 'Morris' is lost in obscurity. The earliest documentary references are mainly from Church accounts in the early 1500's - "Silver paper for the Mores-dawncers - 7d". "for VI peyre of shones for ye Mors dauncers - 4d" (1509/1510). It was certainly thriving in Shakespeare's time; Will Kemp's 'Nine Daies Wonder' was a Morris marathon from London to Norwich in 1600.
One popular theory is that when the original name and meaning of the rite were no longer remembered, the dance was called Moorish or Morris because the current word at that time, for black men, was Moor. One school of thought claims the dances came from Spain having been introduced by the invading Moors. Another theory points to evidence of similar dances in England, long before the Moors, derived from the Druids' Maris dances, in celebration of the god Maris.
The Morris dance or Moorish dance troops of Europe are one example of this legacy, which began the tradition of black face dance troupes and minstrels in Europe and America, all of which is based on the imitation of and/or mockery of black African culture.
And another example of the legacy of Moorish Islam's impact on Europe is the use of the Saber in military ritual, dress and custom, which is a DIRECT transmission from the Islamic cultures of the east. This includes wearing sabers, using sabers in ceremonial events and the use of sabers in military parades and drills.
The Moors were a diverse race of people as As Spain was linked in trade to places like Mali and even Ghana as early as the late 10th and def. the ealy 11th centuries...as some of the earliest references to Ghana claim the Nations capital clearly Muslim resorts. Also for Al Bakri to obtain so much information on Ghana means the two Nations of Al- Andalusia and Ghana were in friendly relations.
What baffles me is that people take offense to the idea of Moorish Spain being a part of African history,...when some of the key figures in Islam its self involved Black people as the same with Christianity and the Judaic faith its self. Islam and the spread of the said religion like Moorish Spain involved the unification and cooperation of many different races of people.
And yes, lets NOT over romanticize this era, The Muslims were part of blood baths and pillaging like Euros....but the fact we both can agree on is that Islamic nations were the first and maybe the only to be governed where people of different faiths, races, and origins were able to make a name for themselves. E.X...the Fatimids, Al-Andalusia, The Abbasids ..etc.
Many empires that existed prior to Islam had many nations, cultures and religions under their helm. This did not start with Islam. What Islam did is set the stage for religious imperialism, first under Islam and then under Christianity. Prior to that Empires were based purely on national and cultural identity and power not religion.
It's interesting isn't it. Because I think Islamic imperialism and Christian imperialism go hand in hand. I think Christian imperialism was a sort of response to Islamic imperialism. But that's just a general opinion...I'm not trying to give a scholarly fact here...lol.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: History as practiced by most cultures, is propaganda. The Egyptians did it, the Babylonians did it and everyone else did it. The European propaganda machine that is history has purposely distorted world history and divided it up into chunks that make Europe seem great in comparison and somehow the first to make commerce and culture global. But in truth this is not the case. The Moors represents the true global world of commerce and culture that existed in the first millenium A.D. of which Western Europe was not a major player. From Africa to the Levant, South Asia and the Far East there were networks of trade, culture and commerce that laid the framework for a global exchange of ideas and technologies that the "west" had no idea of. But due to the propaganda that is European history, they always start off by saying they were the "first" to travel to the Far East, when the Moors and the rest of the Mediterranean, including some Europeans, had been trading with China and traveling there for hundreds of years! Not only that, but Marco Polo sailed east on ships that were TINY compared to those of the East, especially the huge war ships and treasure ships of the Chinese, many of which were river boats driven with paddles like later steam boats in the U.S.A. This is why digging and doing research on world history directly often gives tremendous rewards in discovering things purposely covered up.
But bottom line, yes there were many black Africans among the Moors in Spain and they were part of a wider world of civilization and culture that was introduced to Europe. But lets not over romanticize this time period, as there was as much blood thirsty war fare all over the world of the time even before Europe began its voyages of "discovery".
And again, there is no doubt among Europeans and within European culture about the meaning of the word Moor and the Moorish impact on European culture:
quote: The origin of the word 'Morris' is lost in obscurity. The earliest documentary references are mainly from Church accounts in the early 1500's - "Silver paper for the Mores-dawncers - 7d". "for VI peyre of shones for ye Mors dauncers - 4d" (1509/1510). It was certainly thriving in Shakespeare's time; Will Kemp's 'Nine Daies Wonder' was a Morris marathon from London to Norwich in 1600.
One popular theory is that when the original name and meaning of the rite were no longer remembered, the dance was called Moorish or Morris because the current word at that time, for black men, was Moor. One school of thought claims the dances came from Spain having been introduced by the invading Moors. Another theory points to evidence of similar dances in England, long before the Moors, derived from the Druids' Maris dances, in celebration of the god Maris.
The Morris dance or Moorish dance troops of Europe are one example of this legacy, which began the tradition of black face dance troupes and minstrels in Europe and America, all of which is based on the imitation of and/or mockery of black African culture.
And another example of the legacy of Moorish Islam's impact on Europe is the use of the Saber in military ritual, dress and custom, which is a DIRECT transmission from the Islamic cultures of the east. This includes wearing sabers, using sabers in ceremonial events and the use of sabers in military parades and drills.
The Moors were a diverse race of people as As Spain was linked in trade to places like Mali and even Ghana as early as the late 10th and def. the ealy 11th centuries...as some of the earliest references to Ghana claim the Nations capital clearly Muslim resorts. Also for Al Bakri to obtain so much information on Ghana means the two Nations of Al- Andalusia and Ghana were in friendly relations.
What baffles me is that people take offense to the idea of Moorish Spain being a part of African history,...when some of the key figures in Islam its self involved Black people as the same with Christianity and the Judaic faith its self. Islam and the spread of the said religion like Moorish Spain involved the unification and cooperation of many different races of people.
And yes, lets NOT over romanticize this era, The Muslims were part of blood baths and pillaging like Euros....but the fact we both can agree on is that Islamic nations were the first and maybe the only to be governed where people of different faiths, races, and origins were able to make a name for themselves. E.X...the Fatimids, Al-Andalusia, The Abbasids ..etc.
Many empires that existed prior to Islam had many nations, cultures and religions under their helm. This did not start with Islam. What Islam did is set the stage for religious imperialism, first under Islam and then under Christianity. Prior to that Empires were based purely on national and cultural identity and power not religion.
It's interesting isn't it. Because I think Islamic imperialism and Christian imperialism go hand in hand. I think Christian imperialism was a sort of response to Islamic imperialism. But that's just a general opinion...I'm not trying to give a scholarly fact here...lol.
Religion is imperalistic in nature...it started way before the Koran and Bible. The whole point of an organized religion is about control....
Posts: 8806 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: History as practiced by most cultures, is propaganda. The Egyptians did it, the Babylonians did it and everyone else did it. The European propaganda machine that is history has purposely distorted world history and divided it up into chunks that make Europe seem great in comparison and somehow the first to make commerce and culture global. But in truth this is not the case. The Moors represents the true global world of commerce and culture that existed in the first millenium A.D. of which Western Europe was not a major player. From Africa to the Levant, South Asia and the Far East there were networks of trade, culture and commerce that laid the framework for a global exchange of ideas and technologies that the "west" had no idea of. But due to the propaganda that is European history, they always start off by saying they were the "first" to travel to the Far East, when the Moors and the rest of the Mediterranean, including some Europeans, had been trading with China and traveling there for hundreds of years! Not only that, but Marco Polo sailed east on ships that were TINY compared to those of the East, especially the huge war ships and treasure ships of the Chinese, many of which were river boats driven with paddles like later steam boats in the U.S.A. This is why digging and doing research on world history directly often gives tremendous rewards in discovering things purposely covered up.
But bottom line, yes there were many black Africans among the Moors in Spain and they were part of a wider world of civilization and culture that was introduced to Europe. But lets not over romanticize this time period, as there was as much blood thirsty war fare all over the world of the time even before Europe began its voyages of "discovery".
And again, there is no doubt among Europeans and within European culture about the meaning of the word Moor and the Moorish impact on European culture:
quote: The origin of the word 'Morris' is lost in obscurity. The earliest documentary references are mainly from Church accounts in the early 1500's - "Silver paper for the Mores-dawncers - 7d". "for VI peyre of shones for ye Mors dauncers - 4d" (1509/1510). It was certainly thriving in Shakespeare's time; Will Kemp's 'Nine Daies Wonder' was a Morris marathon from London to Norwich in 1600.
One popular theory is that when the original name and meaning of the rite were no longer remembered, the dance was called Moorish or Morris because the current word at that time, for black men, was Moor. One school of thought claims the dances came from Spain having been introduced by the invading Moors. Another theory points to evidence of similar dances in England, long before the Moors, derived from the Druids' Maris dances, in celebration of the god Maris.
The Morris dance or Moorish dance troops of Europe are one example of this legacy, which began the tradition of black face dance troupes and minstrels in Europe and America, all of which is based on the imitation of and/or mockery of black African culture.
And another example of the legacy of Moorish Islam's impact on Europe is the use of the Saber in military ritual, dress and custom, which is a DIRECT transmission from the Islamic cultures of the east. This includes wearing sabers, using sabers in ceremonial events and the use of sabers in military parades and drills.
The Moors were a diverse race of people as As Spain was linked in trade to places like Mali and even Ghana as early as the late 10th and def. the ealy 11th centuries...as some of the earliest references to Ghana claim the Nations capital clearly Muslim resorts. Also for Al Bakri to obtain so much information on Ghana means the two Nations of Al- Andalusia and Ghana were in friendly relations.
What baffles me is that people take offense to the idea of Moorish Spain being a part of African history,...when some of the key figures in Islam its self involved Black people as the same with Christianity and the Judaic faith its self. Islam and the spread of the said religion like Moorish Spain involved the unification and cooperation of many different races of people.
And yes, lets NOT over romanticize this era, The Muslims were part of blood baths and pillaging like Euros....but the fact we both can agree on is that Islamic nations were the first and maybe the only to be governed where people of different faiths, races, and origins were able to make a name for themselves. E.X...the Fatimids, Al-Andalusia, The Abbasids ..etc.
Many empires that existed prior to Islam had many nations, cultures and religions under their helm. This did not start with Islam. What Islam did is set the stage for religious imperialism, first under Islam and then under Christianity. Prior to that Empires were based purely on national and cultural identity and power not religion.
It's interesting isn't it. Because I think Islamic imperialism and Christian imperialism go hand in hand. I think Christian imperialism was a sort of response to Islamic imperialism. But that's just a general opinion...I'm not trying to give a scholarly fact here...lol.
Religion is imperalistic in nature...it started way before the Koran and Bible. The whole point of an organized religion is about control....
I would say religion is nationalistic/ethnic/personal in nature. All of the religions prior to Islam and Christianity were primarily local affairs which revolved around the local ruling elite and the local indigenous peoples and their relation to both the elite and the divine. As nations grew and conquered other peoples and beliefs, the religion went with them, but the religion was not the reason for the spread of the empire. With Islam and then Christianity, this idea that there was one "true" religion that ALL people HAD to believe in and should be living under came to the fore and it is this zealotry to convert EVERYONE that was part of the rise of the Islamic empires. But even with that zealotry, the fundamental core principle was still the same, which is that religion is primarily devoted to the power of the elite and the people of a certain region. In this case we are talking of Europeans and Arabs using Christianity and Islam to further their OWN empires.
Posts: 8898 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
A book on the travels of some Europeans through the Sahara in 1846. Some hand drawn images of Africans looking quite Jedi like (North and West African Islamic groups were very influential on the Star Wars story not to mention that restoring balance to the "force" is strikingly similar to the balance of Maat).
posted
The pics slow up the god damn page and its such a turn off. Try cut and paste website instead. Jus cuz people cheer you on as image master don't mean you have to go messing up threads unnecessarily.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: The pics slow up the god damn page and its such a turn off. Try cut and paste website instead. Jus cuz people cheer you on as image master don't mean you have to go messing up threads unnecessarily.
I disagree - Bravo, Doug. These true-to life paintings recall a golden age of Moorish culture that was obviously and probably mainly African or Afro-Arab making. (Of course there was the problem of the slave trade at this time too, which brought large numbers of people into North Africa from Eurasia.)
Even I get taken aback by the number of pictures of Moors of undeniable black African appearance. I'm not Muslim but wish i could make a calendar out of such paintings or a book that could be sold on-line and given out to children everywhere.
Judging from the photograph of the Hawazin you posted many of these men were possibly pure Arabs.
True to life painting of a Hawazin Arabian bedouin by a European who traveled throughout the Near East
All I can say with this is OH MY G-D! This painting is fantastic. The portrayal of a Hawazin recalls the description of the related tribes of the Hejaz and central Arabia called Sulaym bin Mansur, Ka'ab ibn Rabiyah, Uqayl, Muntafiq, Namur ibn Qassit the original occupants of Central and North Arabia described as tall and muscular the color of Bishariin and "Galla Ethiopians". Here I thinking these people should look at least a little Ethiopian. As you can see there is little Hamitic about him.
His people also were those described by the Syrians visiting Hejaz and North Central Arabia, Nejd.
This is why im not giving up the heritage of the original Arabs for any one BLACK OR WHITE! These are the people Afrocentrics and Eurocentrics and ignorant European scholars are trying to take out of black history - these the LAST OF THE PURE ARABS.
For more on the Hawazin read my postings on this site on the Fear of Blackness and the Arabs and Yemenites in Spain.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing: The pics slow up the god damn page and its such a turn off. Try cut and paste website instead. Jus cuz people cheer you on as image master don't mean you have to go messing up threads unnecessarily.
I disagree - Bravo, Doug. These true-to life paintings recall a golden age of Moorish culture that was obviously and probably mainly African or Afro-Arab making. (Of course there was the problem of the slave trade at this time too, which brought large numbers of people into North Africa from Eurasia.)
Even I get taken aback by the number of pictures of Moors of undeniable black African appearance. I'm not Muslim but wish i could make a calendar out of such paintings or a book that could be sold on-line and given out to children everywhere.
Judging from the photograph of the Hawazin you posted many of these men were possibly pure Arabs.
True to life painting of a Hawazin Arabian bedouin by a European who traveled throughout the Near East
All I can say with this is OH MY G-D! This painting is fantastic. The portrayal of a Hawazin recalls the description of the related tribes of the Hejaz and central Arabia called Sulaym bin Mansur, Ka'ab ibn Rabiyah, Uqayl, Muntafiq, Namur ibn Qassit the original occupants of Central and North Arabia described as tall and muscular the color of Bishariin and "Galla Ethiopians". Here I thinking these people should look at least a little Ethiopian. As you can see there is little Hamitic about him.
His people also were those described by the Syrians visiting Hejaz and North Central Arabia, Nejd.
This is why im not giving up the heritage of the original Arabs for any one BLACK OR WHITE! These are the people Afrocentrics and Eurocentrics and ignorant European scholars are trying to take out of black history - these the LAST OF THE PURE ARABS.
For more on the Hawazin read my postings on this site on the Fear of Blackness and the Arabs and Yemenites in Spain.
Good Job Dana,
Now go kiss some "Black Arab Ass" and listen to the sound of the Abeed.
Did you know what "Sudan" means in Arabic?
Go Job Little Girl, now go get educated by the "White Man" and you'll do just fine. Posts: 156 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ The tranny-lover above is just mad because the aboriginal peoples of Arabia were black and not the pale faced people like his Circassian-ass. But wait, apparently there were blacks in the Caucasus in ancient times according to Classical sources on the Colchians! Who knows, the pale Caucasian tranny-lover might have black ancestry, just like his black-hating (obsessed) KKK friends in northern Florida! LOL
Scratch a black-hater, and find black ancestry. Don't believe me, look at Mediterranean Europeans! LOLPosts: 26311 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: [QUOTE]Originally posted by anguishofbeing: [qb]
Good Job Dana,
Now go kiss some "Black Arab Ass" and listen to the sound of the Abeed.
Did you know what "Sudan" means in Arabic?
Go Job Little Girl, now go get educated by the "White Man" and you'll do just fine.
First of all I think first you need to calm down your jealousy, and lets not get silly here as of course the only real Arabs were the black ones. Their ancestors were black nationalists.
As for the kissing idea well i don't go down there. I think you would agree that's more of a western or European fetish in fact since the time of the Greeks. You didn't even let me know what Abeed you meant. I take it your talking about these ones mentioned by "educated" "white men".
2003 - “From 1500 to 1650 when trans-Atlantic slaving was still in its infancy more Europeans were taken to Barbary than black African slaves to the Americas. Written by Robert Davis in Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800, MacMillan Publishers, published 2003.
Of course we have to include writings of some of the earlier educated ones :
14th century - “Red, in the speech of the people from the Hijaz, means fair-complexioned and this color is rare amongst the Arabs. This is the meaning of the saying, ‘…a red man as if he is one of the slaves’. The speaker meant that his color is like that of the slaves who were captured from the Christians of Syria, Rome and Persia.” From Al Dhahabi of Damascus Syria, in Seyar al Nubala’a.
“The Arabs used to take pride in their darkness and blackness and they had a distaste for a light complexion and they used to say that a light complexion was the complexion of the non-Arabs” Al Mubarrad, 9th century born in Basra, Iraq.
And here's another venerable educated person. His name is David Goldenberg and he has a very educated answer to your question about the word "Sudan" in his recent book the Curse of Ham p. 106.
"Ismail al Be'ily has shown that the term Sudan in early Arab writings was not restricted to the sub-Saharan black African but rather referred to various dark skinned people including the Copts, Fezzan, Zaghawa, Brbr, Indians, Arabs..."
So much for what the term "Sudan" among means today - how bout what it meant when Arabs were still Arabs.
Richmond Palmer another "white man" and colonial administrator said similarly the word Sudan by Syrians was used for the greater part of the Arabian peninsula in his Bornu Sahara and Sudan. Since that was where Arabs once predominated that fact should surprise noone.
I would rather listen to the poetry of Dawasir Sulaym, Khuza'a and Hawazin and other of the true remnants of the Arabs who first taught people like you the word "Abid".
9th century A.D. al Masudi of Baghdad, “ The Nabataeans founded the city of Babylon and were those descendants of Ham who settled in the same province under the leadership of Nmrod, the son of Cush, who was the son of Hamm…This took place at the time when Nimrod received the governship of Babylonia as the delegate of Dzhahhak.”
Men of the Haweitat of Jordan are among those claiming descent from the Nabataeans. Still near black after all these centuries years of taking "white" concubines, the Haweit'at stretch far to the south and the Tihama.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
In case of those who missed it this is what Goldenberg has cited the 10th c. al Masudi of Iraq stating - " ...the Akkbar al Zaman, which lists the Nabit , among the children of Canaan… also said the word, ‘Nabit’ signifies ‘black’…” see p. 313 of The Curse of Ham.
Again, for Iraqis and Syrians of this period the people of the Arabian peninsula still epitomized blackness. And, the Canaaniyya i.e. Nabataeans and other Hejazis who had colonized the southern part of Syria were rightly or wrongly thought to have been the ancestors of many tribes across the African Sudan and Sahel extending into the Maghreb by fair-skinned people of the Middle East up until the Middle Ages.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
I uploaded this pic sometime ago, during a debate with somebody who in retrospect wasn't worth the trouble. Glad to see its still circulating ...
Posts: 318 | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: History as practiced by most cultures, is propaganda. The Egyptians did it, the Babylonians did it and everyone else did it. The European propaganda machine that is history has purposely distorted world history and divided it up into chunks that make Europe seem great in comparison and somehow the first to make commerce and culture global. But in truth this is not the case. The Moors represents the true global world of commerce and culture that existed in the first millenium A.D. of which Western Europe was not a major player. From Africa to the Levant, South Asia and the Far East there were networks of trade, culture and commerce that laid the framework for a global exchange of ideas and technologies that the "west" had no idea of. But due to the propaganda that is European history, they always start off by saying they were the "first" to travel to the Far East, when the Moors and the rest of the Mediterranean, including some Europeans, had been trading with China and traveling there for hundreds of years! Not only that, but Marco Polo sailed east on ships that were TINY compared to those of the East, especially the huge war ships and treasure ships of the Chinese, many of which were river boats driven with paddles like later steam boats in the U.S.A. This is why digging and doing research on world history directly often gives tremendous rewards in discovering things purposely covered up.
But bottom line, yes there were many black Africans among the Moors in Spain and they were part of a wider world of civilization and culture that was introduced to Europe. But lets not over romanticize this time period, as there was as much blood thirsty war fare all over the world of the time even before Europe began its voyages of "discovery".
And again, there is no doubt among Europeans and within European culture about the meaning of the word Moor and the Moorish impact on European culture:
quote: The origin of the word 'Morris' is lost in obscurity. The earliest documentary references are mainly from Church accounts in the early 1500's - "Silver paper for the Mores-dawncers - 7d". "for VI peyre of shones for ye Mors dauncers - 4d" (1509/1510). It was certainly thriving in Shakespeare's time; Will Kemp's 'Nine Daies Wonder' was a Morris marathon from London to Norwich in 1600.
One popular theory is that when the original name and meaning of the rite were no longer remembered, the dance was called Moorish or Morris because the current word at that time, for black men, was Moor. One school of thought claims the dances came from Spain having been introduced by the invading Moors. Another theory points to evidence of similar dances in England, long before the Moors, derived from the Druids' Maris dances, in celebration of the god Maris.
The Morris dance or Moorish dance troops of Europe are one example of this legacy, which began the tradition of black face dance troupes and minstrels in Europe and America, all of which is based on the imitation of and/or mockery of black African culture.
And another example of the legacy of Moorish Islam's impact on Europe is the use of the Saber in military ritual, dress and custom, which is a DIRECT transmission from the Islamic cultures of the east. This includes wearing sabers, using sabers in ceremonial events and the use of sabers in military parades and drills.
The Moors were a diverse race of people as As Spain was linked in trade to places like Mali and even Ghana as early as the late 10th and def. the ealy 11th centuries...as some of the earliest references to Ghana claim the Nations capital clearly Muslim resorts. Also for Al Bakri to obtain so much information on Ghana means the two Nations of Al- Andalusia and Ghana were in friendly relations.
What baffles me is that people take offense to the idea of Moorish Spain being a part of African history,...when some of the key figures in Islam its self involved Black people as the same with Christianity and the Judaic faith its self. Islam and the spread of the said religion like Moorish Spain involved the unification and cooperation of many different races of people.
And yes, lets NOT over romanticize this era, The Muslims were part of blood baths and pillaging like Euros....but the fact we both can agree on is that Islamic nations were the first and maybe the only to be governed where people of different faiths, races, and origins were able to make a name for themselves. E.X...the Fatimids, Al-Andalusia, The Abbasids ..etc.
The word Moor was not the equivalent of "Muslim" Jari. The word Moor for nearly 1500 years meant a black man pagan, Christian, Muslim, or Jewish. Anyone who says otherwise is making up things. Mathilde search is on another link.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Shut up. I've been here since 2004 and everyone knows me (the usuals anyway). I've also been talking about this topic for a long time. But hey, no one is forcing you to believe me.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic