posted
Look you guys are frothing idiots. Yuya was Mittanian. Mittanians were Hurrian. Hurrians came from India.
The same Horn Africans that were the ancestors of Tuja were the ancestors of the Beja.
The admixture was between Mittanian and East African.
-------------------- The seed cannot sprout upwards without simultaneously sending roots into the ground. Posts: 152 | From: Boston MA USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:In this story, Akhenaten arrives at his father's deathbed in Karnak where he is received in horror. Amenhotep believes his erstwhile son is a demon from the underworld come to haunt him. Sycophantic cour officials and servants spread the word that the long lost son is either a demon or an imposter. Either way he is not beloved by their personal deity the God-King Amenhotep III. Sides are drawn. Akhenaten is peaceful at heart if injured by his father's enmity. Tiye makes the most stunning move of all. She positions her disesteemed son and heir to seize the throne by marriage with an heiress of Iaret. Nefertiti (unbeknownst to her) carries the blood of a Goddess in her veins and one whose significance trumps even Tiye's. Nefertiti's birthright legitimizes Akhenaten ascension. The new triad: Tiye /Akhenaten and Nefertiti will block the power grab of the House of Amen... That is they will if they can manage to without being done away with in the process.
Maahes you said..I think somewhere on the fisrt page, that you were going to change the tittle of the movie? I think I remember you saying that.
Posts: 229 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Ok there is obviously a comprehension issue here.
Good night. I am wasting my time here. You are wasting my time here. To close I want to ask each and every one of you three questions:
1. Have you ever been to the continent of Africa?
2. Do you speak any indigenous African languages?
3. Are Mexicans Native Americans?
-------------------- The seed cannot sprout upwards without simultaneously sending roots into the ground. Posts: 152 | From: Boston MA USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Maahes: Look you guys are frothing idiots. Yuya was Mittanian. Mittanians were Hurrian. Hurrians came from India.
The same Horn Africans that were the ancestors of Tuja were the ancestors of the Beja.
The admixture was between Mittanian and East African.
whoa being a little rude don't you think? you know there always that possibility that you could be wrong. and if you were you would want to correct it right?
Posts: 229 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Sundiata: In summation, the New Kingdom Pharaohs and Queens whose mummies have been recovered bear strong similarity to either contemporary Nubians, as with the XVII and XVIII dynasties, or with Mesolithic-Holocene Nubians, as with the XVIV and XX dynasties. The former dynasties seem to have a strong southern affinity, while the latter possessed evidence of mixing with modern Mediterranean types and also, possibly, with remnants of the old Tasian and Natufian populations. From the few sample available from the XXI Dynasty, there may have been a new infusion from the south at this period. - Source
Why are you always so god damn racially defensive? No one here argued about the Africaness of early Egyptian kings, infact i argued the opposite by saying that the 18th dynasty had influx from foreign blood like Yuya from Mittani. I agree with Maahes you guys seriously need to seek help.
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
Maahes is definitely having some kind of emotional breakdown right now. Please desist with your hissy fit antics; no one cares. Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
This is obviously no place for the intellectually weak and the emotionally charged. Can't handle the heat in the kitchen, it's best then to just walk away.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Sundiata: In summation, the New Kingdom Pharaohs and Queens whose mummies have been recovered bear strong similarity to either contemporary Nubians, as with the XVII and XVIII dynasties, or with Mesolithic-Holocene Nubians, as with the XVIV and XX dynasties. The former dynasties seem to have a strong southern affinity, while the latter possessed evidence of mixing with modern Mediterranean types and also, possibly, with remnants of the old Tasian and Natufian populations. From the few sample available from the XXI Dynasty, there may have been a new infusion from the south at this period. - Source
No one here argued about the Africaness of early Egyptian kings, infact i argued the opposite by saying that the 18th dynasty had influx from foreign blood like{...]
Yonis.. Do you know how to read? Apparently not, because that was clearly an overview of New Kingdom mummies (including the 18th Dynasty) and not "early Egyptian kings".
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Maahes: Look you guys are frothing idiots. Yuya was Mittanian. Mittanians were Hurrian. Hurrians came from India.
The same Horn Africans that were the ancestors of Tuja were the ancestors of the Beja.
The admixture was between Mittanian and East African.
whoa being a little rude don't you think? you know there always that possibility that you could be wrong. and if you were you would want to correct it right?
YES this entire thread has been incredibly rude. While I have attempted to keep my manners it has proven exceedingly difficult to do so.
I would certainly want to know in the event that I was incorrect. I wasn't born with the intuition that Yuya was Mittanian or that Mittanians were of Hurrian/IndoAryan extraction either.
If any of you bothered to read the links I posted you would know that I am not incorrect. But then what does it matter? This isnt about anything but dominance and control. Some of you feel powerless and humiliated by the dominant Caucasian culture that brought you to this continent. That is an important part of your self-identity and I have empathy for you. This is does not give you the right to behave in a rude and demeaning manner. Your words give me insight into the fact that you lack respect for your elders. You lack respect for other peoples cultures. You lack respect for oral traditions and most of all you lack honour. A sense of honour provides us with all the necessary manners we to need interact appropriately with 'others'. And this my friends is how Americans are different than most of the rest of the world. You are a young nation and like adolescent children, you care not what suffering you cause in the world so long as you get your way and can dominate every conversation.
You lost an opportunity tonight and so did I. Thusly we the human family lost an opportunity.
Posts: 152 | From: Boston MA USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:YES this entire thread has been incredibly rude. While I have attempted to keep my manners it has proven exceedingly difficult to do so.
I would certainly want to know in the event that I was incorrect. I wasn't born with the intuition that Yuya was Mittanian or that Mittanians were of Hurrian/IndoAryan extraction either.
If any of you bothered to read the links I posted you would know that I am not incorrect. But then what does it matter? This isnt about anything but dominance and control. Some of you feel powerless and humiliated by the dominant Caucasian culture that brought you to this continent. That is an important part of your self-identity and I have empathy for you. This is does not give you the right to behave in a rude and demeaning manner. Your words give me insight into the fact that you lack respect for your elders. You lack respect for other peoples cultures. You lack respect for oral traditions and most of all you lack honour. A sense of honour provides us with all the necessary manners we to need interact appropriately with 'others'. And this my friends is how Americans are different than most of the rest of the world. You are a young nation and like adolescent children, you care not what suffering you cause in the world so long as you get your way and can dominate every conversation.
You lost an opportunity tonight and so did I. Thusly we the human family lost an opportunity.
yes they have been very rude.but excuse them please. they dont represent the majority of people on egyptsearch. and Honestly they are not the arrogant and rude people that some of them are being right now.they are intelligent people. but unfortunately they are used to debating like this. because of the many trolls we get in this forum.
so please do not get to upset to leave egyptsearch. Posts: 229 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: This is obviously no place for the intellectually weak and the emotionally charged. Can't handle the heat in the kitchen, it's best then to just walk away.
Or just sit in the shadows and spit out insiduous prose like this little useless beauty.
And you know what? If you live in the desert, automobiles are more trouble than they are worth. How does that suit you?
This is my family village. In two weeks I will be home. The kitchen I leave is the vapidity oven. Posts: 152 | From: Boston MA USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote: This is obviously no place for the intellectually weak and the emotionally charged.
lol you see? we are to use to arguing with stupid people who only cause trouble.we like the chaos.
Posts: 229 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jul 2007
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This is obviously no place for the intellectually weak and the emotionally charged. Can't handle the heat in the kitchen, it's best then to just walk away.
Or just sit in the shadows and spit out insiduous prose like this little useless beauty.
I take it that my comment [without an addressee] applies to you, since it urged you to reply it. That being the case, best then to take the advice. Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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^Nothing. IMDB posts information about mainstream movie productions all the way up to 2 years in advance. There is nothing here about this movie or anywhere else for that matter.
This is a working title. As i said earlier, you will be reading about the film in the months to come. At this moment in time, there is a major strike on. No productions that cannot wrap before the Directors and Screen Actors Guild strike begins in a few months are in production.
But what do you care? You're too opinionated to enjoy movies.
Posts: 152 | From: Boston MA USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote: This is obviously no place for the intellectually weak and the emotionally charged.
lol you see? we are to use to arguing with stupid people who only cause trouble.we like the chaos.
The point was that if one can't stand being called out and scrutinized, and instead buckles under the pressure, leaving him/her to seek futile refuge in name calling and running away from outstanding requests, then this forum and others like it may not be the place for such a person.
^Nothing. IMDB posts information about mainstream movie productions all the way up to 2 years in advance. There is nothing here about this movie or anywhere else for that matter.
This is a working title. As i said earlier, you will be reading about the film in the months to come. At this moment in time, there is a major strike on. No productions that cannot wrap before the Directors and Screen Actors Guild strike begins in a few months are in production.
But what do you care? You're too opinionated to enjoy movies.
Maahes, do you know Halle Berry? And do her words have anything to do with what you're talking about?
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Yama means Twin in old Egyptian, Am Haric and Tamazight Siwi. The Peoples known as Yama in Lower Sudan or as Yam Nubians were thusly the twins of the Egyptians. The oldest Sanskrit texts dealing with the worship of the planets associate Saturn with the colour black. They further mention Yama, the Hindu god of death, as the deity presiding over this dark planet. Yama is associated with the colour black in the Brahmana texts of the Veda In classical Hinduism, Yama's colour is black and his vehicle usually the dark water buffalo. The planet Saturn, too, is said to ride the water buffalo in some texts. The Proto-Dravidian Yama has a twin sister named Yami. The Mittanians held on to this precept in their iconography and state religion.
There is evidence that the Sudanese region had horses and chariots much earlier than the Egyptians in the Nile Valley had them.
See Early Animal Domestication And Its Cultural Context on google then type in Horse Sudan
At any rate, the evidence that Horn Africans and Proto-Dravidians were trading with another to the exclusion of Egyptians comes from the Horse naturally and the presence of chariots and horses amongst the Yam Kushites by 17 Dynasty at the latest. This is before the Hyksos had arrived in Egypt with horses and chariots.
The chariots and horses may have arrived from India via the Levant- stranger things have happened. It probably happened that at about the same time that the Proto-Dravidians arrived in the Levant they were also radiating out into Eastern Africa and everywhere they went they brought their horses and their chariots. They did not bring their women evidently. Those of you familiar with the Hyksos may find a correlation in this as well. The Hyksos an elite force of foreign rulers in the Levant and later they took up residence in Lower Egypt. The Hyksos did not bring their own women into Egypt but chose instead to wage ethnic cleansing against the indigineous Egyptians. The first born sons were killed and all the adult males-Fortunately, the Hyksos never reached Upper Egypt proper even while the Hyksos and the Kush were firmly allied: http://www.pbs.org/empires/egypt/newkingdom/ahmose.html
For just how long is anyone's venture.
Some scholars think that the Hyksos were related to the subsequent progenitors of the Mittanian ruling elite and that this caste of horse chariot drawn warriors were the male founders of the Egyptian religious caste of God's Fathers like Aperel, Yuya, Yey, Aye and Nakht Min.
At any rate, the Mittanians were in competition with the Egyptians and eventually their cultures actually merged. Thousands of Mittanians that made up the retinues of various Mittanian princesses would make their permanent homes in Upper Egypt as well as Lower Egypt. We have already discussed Thutmose III's legendary battle of Armegeddon wherebye he took hostage hundreds if Mittanian princes which were brought back to Egypt.
Once Mittani and Egypt were firmly allied, the cultural relationship also evolved from competition to cooperation.
A new caste of warriors from Mittani would arrive in the courts of 18th Dynasty kings and each would carry the title of Head of Chariotry and or High Priest of Min or something to that extent. Each of these men had unusual sounding names and from these names we can intuit that these men were of the ruling aristocracy because the Mittanian ruling elite kept Indo-Iranian names and titles while the people they conquered - the Hurrians did not. The Gold Trade brought traders down to the southern coasts of the Red Sea and here is where the trade for horses began.
One can imagine the bond between a Puntite Heiress from the Horn of Africa and a Vassal Prince of Mittani. Regardless the cultural history of the Mittanians is just as important to our story as that of the Egyptians from various regions within the Nile Valley and their neighbors to the South in Sudan.
Posts: 152 | From: Boston MA USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Maahes, do you know Halle Berry? And do her words have anything to do with what you're talking about? [/QUOTE]
I'm the lead writer and the creator of these works. It is none of your business who I know. No one speaks for me but my attornies or literary agents and only when I expressly request them to do so.
Posts: 152 | From: Boston MA USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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I've been thing hard about all this since my last posting. The AEs usually dipicted the men as reddish. They depicted Nubians as jet black and others as much lighter. The pics alone are trelling us that they saw themselves as Reddish/Red.
You said that the Black Rock = Onyx and that was considered sacred. Jet Black people were considered sacred.
That's even better than Black is Beautiful. Black is Holy. Black was the color of deity.
Hmmmmm...
Certain people could havve concentrated their efforts on the Nubians who were jey black and pyramid builders etc.
Make a movie and fill it up with Wesley Snipes to Tweet.
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
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That's not the goal. If the average Egyptian looked was reddish brown, that means some were lighter and some were darker. They did mix with outsiders and they've been mixing every since. Suppose Tutankhamen was high yallah (yellow)?
Is that a bad thing? That's almost like saying, we don't like light skinned Blacks.
I'm thinking back to Sydney Poitier playing Thurgood Marshall.
That was OK!
This is selective criticism.
Maahes,
don't be fooled.
If you can't get the other actors get terrance!
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
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posted
^ This is ridiculous! We know indigenous Africans (who we call 'black') come in various shades and complexions! However, regardless of whether they had a reddish-brown hue or not the Egyptians still called themselves black by the very name Kememou or Kematawy!! Black was a sacred color whom they identified with regardless of actual complexion.
Also, not all Egyptians were depicted as reddish-brown as can be seen in The Book of Gates
And where is the evidence to suggest that ancient Egyptians by and large were 'mixed' or that theirs was a 'mixed' society?? You seem to be under the false notion that color variations such as reddish-brown are indications of admixture as if pure Africans only come in Sudanese black complexions!!
Hum Biol. 2000 Oct;72(5):773-80. Related Articles, Links Human skin color diversity is highest in sub-Saharan African populations. Relethford JH. Department of Anthropology, State University of New York College at Oneonta, 13820, USA. Previous studies of genetic and craniometric traits have found higher levels of within-population diversity in sub-Saharan Africa compared to other geographic regions. This study examines regional differences in within-population diversity of human skin color. Published data on skin reflectance were collected for 98 male samples from eight geographic regions: sub-Saharan Africa, North Africa, Europe, West Asia, Southwest Asia, South Asia, Australasia, and the New World. Regional differences in local within-population diversity were examined using two measures of variability: the sample variance and the sample coefficient of variation. For both measures, the average level of within-population diversity is higher in sub-Saharan Africa than in other geographic regions. This difference persists even after adjusting for a correlation between within-population diversity and distance from the equator. Though affected by natural selection, skin color variation shows the same pattern of higher African diversity as found with other traits.
The aboriginal Khoisan peoples of Southern Africa are yellowish-brown in complexion, does this mean they are mixed??
Also, Tut "high yellow"?! You must be confusing his golden mask for his actual skin color.
This are actual painted depictions of Tut showing his true complexion
I also question Maahes's identification of Tiye as being of "Nilotic" descent when we have no evidence of such. Tiye's family is from Akhmim Upper Egypt, so I would only assume this 'Nilotic' identification comes from nothing else but her very dark appearance. This is also contradictory to the claims that she is of part Mitanni descent.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian: But No,
That's not the goal. If the average Egyptian looked was reddish brown, that means some were lighter and some were darker. They did mix with outsiders and they've been mixing every since. Suppose Tutankhamen was high yallah (yellow)?
Is it not painfully obvious that this is King Tut's golden mask, which in no way reflects his natural skin complexion in life, and in no way can?
Also, your color concepts in identifying Egyptian tomb paintings are dangerously subjective. "Reddish-Brown" is a dark skin complexion most notably seen among Africans, as opposed to Europeans and SW Asians. At the end of the day, I don't see red, but most literally I see brown to dark brown. Figuratively, I see black. There are threads on here contrasting supposedly lighter skinned Khoisan to that of the darker skinned Egyptians. You trivialize this indigenous variation. Why?
What shift in population demographics can you point to attesting to your supposed "admixture" thesis and when and/or how long did it occur? Dates, numbers, documents...all welcome.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Maahes: The gentleman on the left top is Yuya. The woman on the top right is Tuja. The gentleman on the left bottom is Brahman. The woman on the right bottom is a Horn African. These two ethnicities are what were mixing in some 18th Dynasty Egyptian ruling families.
There is defintely some confusion here. First of all, the Mitanni may have had an Indo-Aryan speaking elite but this does not mean they came from India! In fact, most ancient sources including those from Egypt describe Mitanni as 'white' that is with pale skin and light brown to blonde hair and blue eyes! As for the Horn African woman in the picture, she is Kotu. The people of Egypt may be related to Horn Africans but they are not Horn Africans but indigenous Nile Valley people and you cannot say all Nile Valley peoples looked like that Kotu woman.
quote:Yuya and Tuja were much beloved members of two very different families. It is possible that Yuya is derived of a patrilinear family of Mittanian extraction (read a vassal prince) and that Tuja is descended from some venerated matrilinear heiress of Punt. (The ancient Egyptians believed that they were descended of Punt.) These two power house families symbolize two of the opposite corners of the 18th Dynasty Egyptian empire.
Elder Lady widely believed to be Queen Tiye.
Tiye may have been their daughter, or she may have been adopted from yet another part of the empire, say central Sudan...
What we have here is alot of speculation and no actual substantial evidence to back up these conjectures. First of all, we don't know for sure if the Elder Lady is Tiye until DNA mapping of the 18th dynasty is done including the Elder Lady's sample. Second, even if she was how the heck can you say that she was adopted, let alone that she came from Sudan?? Where does this notion come from or where is it based on?? You still haven't provided any hard proof that Yuya was a foreigner let alone Mitanni. The features of the mummy does not count as Doug M. shows such features are not uncommon among Nile Valley people or other Africans. Perhaps the strongest thing you have going is that Yuya was a charioteer officer which may or may not mean that he was or had some connections to the Mitanni Maryana.
quote:Either way, Tuja was Steward of the Harem as was her mother before her. She was also an heiress as evidenced in her cartouche. She is however not a descendant of a 'God's Wife' or 'God's Daughter'.
Female Servants of God
Women from noble families were accepted as "hemet netjers" already in the Old Kingdom. Usually they were attached to the goddesses. It's uncertain what work they really performed, more than being singers, dancers and musicians. At one occasion in the Third Intermediate Period there was a royal lady titled God¥s Wife of Amen. She was served by female acolytes, lived in celibacy and adopted another royal lady to secure the successorship.
God's Father
The High Priest is also called the First Prophet and could in his turn delegate Second, Third and Fourth Prophets as deputies. The brother-in-law to Amenhotep III, Aanen, was for a long time Second Prophet of Amen at Karnak and High Priest of Re-Atum. Aanen's father Yuya was High Priest of Min at Akhim and also held the title of God's Father, which is believed to mean Father-in-law of the King. But "father of the god" was also used as titles for the priesthood directly below the First Prophet and these persons often held other important duties outside the temples. Yuya was therefore Master of the King¥s Horses and Overseer of the Cattle of the temple of Min, besides being the High Priest of Min.
This info seems fine in terms of validity, but what about the other stuff I just pointed out and questioned??
quote: Look you guys are frothing idiots. Yuya was Mittanian. Mittanians were Hurrian. Hurrians came from India.
The same Horn Africans that were the ancestors of Tuja were the ancestors of the Beja.
The admixture was between Mittanian and East African.
The Mitanni populace by and large was indeed Hurrian but the elite were Indo-Aryan speakers. But again, they were NOT Indian or there is no evidence to suggest they came from India but may very well be a group that split off from the originators of Indo-Aryan speakers in India.
And the Horn Africans who were ancestors of Tuja were tens of thousands of years old, so I don't know what this had to do with Nile Valley people of that time period.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I'm not here for personal chit-chat or to be subject matter. I have a private offline life filled with social opportunity.
Now whenever anyone addresses me about a valid topic, related to Egyptology, Africana, population genetics, art interpretation, archaeology, languages, comparative spiritualities, etc., and does not express any ethnic antipathies or hatred, I will respond.
But please accept my wholehearted apologies if you feel I slighted you. Such was not my intent. I just have a general policy that evenly applied to all.
Sincerely, al~Takruri
quote:Originally posted by Nefar: And I do try to communicate with of of you all be You guys are so shadowy! I tried to talk to ausar but hes never on! I try to talk to altakuri but he never responded! only friendly person here is djehuti
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Maahes, do you know Halle Berry? And do her words have anything to do with what you're talking about?
I'm the lead writer and the creator of these works. It is none of your business who I know. No one speaks for me but my attornies or literary agents and only when I expressly request them to do so. [/QUOTE]
What the hell are you so damn defensive for? Maybe some of you guys need to chill the hell out from this thread for a while...jeez. Can't even ask an honest question.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Maahes: Look you guys are frothing idiots. Yuya was Mittanian. Mittanians were Hurrian. Hurrians came from India.
The same Horn Africans that were the ancestors of Tuja were the ancestors of the Beja.
The admixture was between Mittanian and East African.
Obviously, then Maahes you must love the Mittani because all of your so called "pro African" identity and "pro African" ethnic chanting seems to be turning into a bunch of adoration for Mittani blood that has not been validated by ANY evidence. Why do you seem so DESPERATE for Mittani mixture in the 18th dynasty royal line? What happened to the PROUD identity of indigenous folk of North East Africa? Seems you only want to speak of this pride in MIXED ancestry over being indigenous African.
Posts: 8897 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Maahes: Yama means Twin in old Egyptian, Am Haric and Tamazight Siwi. The Peoples known as Yama in Lower Sudan or as Yam Nubians were thusly the twins of the Egyptians. The oldest Sanskrit texts dealing with the worship of the planets associate Saturn with the colour black. They further mention Yama, the Hindu god of death, as the deity presiding over this dark planet. Yama is associated with the colour black in the Brahmana texts of the Veda In classical Hinduism, Yama's colour is black and his vehicle usually the dark water buffalo. The planet Saturn, too, is said to ride the water buffalo in some texts. The Proto-Dravidian Yama has a twin sister named Yami. The Mittanians held on to this precept in their iconography and state religion.
There is evidence that the Sudanese region had horses and chariots much earlier than the Egyptians in the Nile Valley had them.
See Early Animal Domestication And Its Cultural Context on google then type in Horse Sudan
At any rate, the evidence that Horn Africans and Proto-Dravidians were trading with another to the exclusion of Egyptians comes from the Horse naturally and the presence of chariots and horses amongst the Yam Kushites by 17 Dynasty at the latest. This is before the Hyksos had arrived in Egypt with horses and chariots.
The chariots and horses may have arrived from India via the Levant- stranger things have happened. It probably happened that at about the same time that the Proto-Dravidians arrived in the Levant they were also radiating out into Eastern Africa and everywhere they went they brought their horses and their chariots. They did not bring their women evidently. Those of you familiar with the Hyksos may find a correlation in this as well. The Hyksos an elite force of foreign rulers in the Levant and later they took up residence in Lower Egypt. The Hyksos did not bring their own women into Egypt but chose instead to wage ethnic cleansing against the indigineous Egyptians. The first born sons were killed and all the adult males-Fortunately, the Hyksos never reached Upper Egypt proper even while the Hyksos and the Kush were firmly allied: http://www.pbs.org/empires/egypt/newkingdom/ahmose.html
For just how long is anyone's venture.
Some scholars think that the Hyksos were related to the subsequent progenitors of the Mittanian ruling elite and that this caste of horse chariot drawn warriors were the male founders of the Egyptian religious caste of God's Fathers like Aperel, Yuya, Yey, Aye and Nakht Min.
At any rate, the Mittanians were in competition with the Egyptians and eventually their cultures actually merged. Thousands of Mittanians that made up the retinues of various Mittanian princesses would make their permanent homes in Upper Egypt as well as Lower Egypt. We have already discussed Thutmose III's legendary battle of Armegeddon wherebye he took hostage hundreds if Mittanian princes which were brought back to Egypt.
Once Mittani and Egypt were firmly allied, the cultural relationship also evolved from competition to cooperation.
A new caste of warriors from Mittani would arrive in the courts of 18th Dynasty kings and each would carry the title of Head of Chariotry and or High Priest of Min or something to that extent. Each of these men had unusual sounding names and from these names we can intuit that these men were of the ruling aristocracy because the Mittanian ruling elite kept Indo-Iranian names and titles while the people they conquered - the Hurrians did not. The Gold Trade brought traders down to the southern coasts of the Red Sea and here is where the trade for horses began.
One can imagine the bond between a Puntite Heiress from the Horn of Africa and a Vassal Prince of Mittani. Regardless the cultural history of the Mittanians is just as important to our story as that of the Egyptians from various regions within the Nile Valley and their neighbors to the South in Sudan.
Again, Maahes, where is your evidence of such a BLOOD tie between various members of the ruling elite in the 18th dynasty versus some Mittani in the rank and file or some diplomatic marriages that produced on royal offspring. What you are saying is blatantly incorrect and no matter how much you repeat it, it is still wrong. Again, if you can come here so boldly and make such claims, then you should be able to back it up with evidence. Just because you say so does not make it so. Like all your other recent comments, I believe you are more interested in seeing Egypt being made up of a "rainbow" of people from China to the Amazon and everyone else OTHER than indigenous Africans of the Nile Valley. Everything you say reflects an ANTI NILE VALLEY attitude towards ancient Egypt, which tries to put FOREIGNERS in the key roles of various Kingdoms with NO EVIDENCE and IN PLACE OF the indigenous population of the Nile. Then you have the nerve to talk about indigenees of the Nile and their PROUD identity, but NOT ONCE have YOU YOURSELF acknowledged REAL NILE VALLEY AFRICANS as being the TRUE basis of Egyptian culture and civilization. All you keep fawning over is Mittani, Indo Europeans, Indians and others. Then you call US out for distorting the history of Egypt by claiming that they were NILE VALLEY AFRICANS!
Again, I stand on my position that the OVERWHELMING majority of the rulers from Amenhotep I through Akhenaten had PRIMARILY Nile Valley African blood and not FOREIGN genes.
YOU need to provide your evidence for the OVERWHELMING mixture of Mittani, Indian and other folks into the ruling family of the Mid to Late 18th dynasty.
Posts: 8897 | Registered: May 2005
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The people in Africa can come in various colors. We all accept the modern term "Black" and "African". What I am saying that this is a subtle debate were terminology is key and you must understand the true reason for all this concern.
Isn't strange that the native Egyptiand don't want to be called Black? They remind me of Black Latin Americans. On the other hand some African Americans don't want to acknowledge race-mixing anywhere.
I am African American and am familiar with skin variations even in individual families. I have met face to face with modern Egyptians and Ethiopians in NYC and see what these groups look like.
AE was near paleskinned people in the West and North who they conquered and mixed with. Invaders usually sleep with native women. That's the history of the world. That process would naturally lead to mixing of appearance.
The Amhara called themselves "Red" and the Oromo "Black". The Bambara were called "Black" and the Fulani "Red". The "Black" Bambara are fighting against the "Red" Tuareg as we write. This is all very real.
The Chinese used to call themselve "Bai" = White and the Malaysians and other darker Asians "Hei" = "Black".
The Bible itself, which you may or not believe, says that the Hebrews (implying Asiatics) were more numerous in Goshen than the native Egyptians. Yosef married an Egyptian woman and also his two sons did like wise. Mixing of native Egyptians and Asiatics was implied throughout the Bible which occured during the New Kingdom era.
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The ancestors of the African Americans were largely very dark-skinned people and if you are an African American and are into history, you will look at African American history first. The problem with African American history is that the major figures were often children of the slavemasters and in our current culture we are overwhelmed with lighter skinned Blacks in politics, show biz, etc.
So, the African American who wants to be "Black, Black, Black" looks to Africa for inspiration. This type of person looks to Ancient Egypt and when they encounter pics that are too light it pricks them. When they encounter modern Egyptians/Ethiopians online like Maahes, Yom, AMR1 and others it is hard to take an attitude similar to what they were trying to avoid back in Black America.
That's what I was getting at. It's subtle and tricky. Black America is not going in the direction of Afrocentricism. I see Black American blending more and more into the greater America. There are very few African Americans here.
How would we have evidence of mixing with Dr. Z. Hawass blocking the tests. What I am generally saying is that AE being where it was on a map would see some form of race mixing. This is the case for North Africa in general and it extends down the coast to Ethiopia with the Tigre and Amhara. The Greeks, Romans, Persians, Assyrians, Arabs, Turks, British and others invaded Egypt for 2,000+ years and the modern Egyptians are racially mixed. This is obvious. Yet, by modern standards they "Black" in the broadest sense.
Hoda Kotb is the most famous Egyptian American.
She is obviously Black.
Yet, some Blacks would rather see this...
A much darker woman like Serena.
Deep down, some African Americans, don't want to see "brown" Egyptians, they really really really want "black" Egyptians.
This is probably a backlash from being constantly fed lighter images historically and this is spilling over into their approach to Ancient Egypt.
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The Ancestors of the AAs were generally very dark Western Sudanic types mainly Mande speakers with Fulani and others.
The Sons of the slavemasters like Frederick Douglass, Booker T. Washington, and other mixed folks WEB DuBois, Walter White etc ran and started the first institutions in Black America. This tradition has continues on to today.
Now, we have....
The African Americans in general are concerned with surviving economically in America and don't know much about Africa. The richest or most successful Black men tend to marry out producing lighter and lighter offspring which perpetuates a de facto color caste system.
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The DNA results for modern Egyptians show that their paternal lines are native E3b + the Arab J Y chromosome haplotypes, but the female lineages are mixed with Berber, African Black, and Semitic
They also like the foreign women. History repeats.
As I said Black America is blending into America and away from Africa more and more and as there is more racemixing here the interracial kids will be less attached to Africa.
Kim Kardashian on the African American King Magazine. Kim is Armenian (Middle Eastern)
Vida Guerra (Mexican) was woman of the year for Black Men's Magazine
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If Maahes' movie is successful it will be a blessing to African Americans and it will be a pivotal event. I hope he succeeds.
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian: Tee85,
How would we have evidence of mixing with Dr. Z. Hawass blocking the tests. What I am generally saying is that AE being where it was on a map would see some form of race mixing. This is the case for North Africa in general and it extends down the coast to Ethiopia with the Tigre and Amhara. The Greeks, Romans, Persians, Assyrians, Arabs, Turks, British and others invaded Egypt for 2,000+ years and the modern Egyptians are racially mixed. This is obvious. Yet, by modern standards they "Black" in the broadest sense.
Hoda Kotb is the most famous Egyptian American.
She is obviously Black.
Yet, some Blacks would rather see this...
A much darker woman like Serena.
Deep down, some African Americans, don't want to see "brown" Egyptians, they really really really want "black" Egyptians.
This is probably a backlash from being constantly fed lighter images historically and this is spilling over into their approach to Ancient Egypt.
What you are doing, however, is generalizing. Just because Egypt is in North East Africa, near the Levant and Europe, does not mean that you can arbitrarily claim that any individual from ancient Egypt was more mixed than any other. That is the point. And, contrary to what you are implying, all Egyptians today are not all of the same ancestry. Again, this comes down to hard evidence and making claims about the 18th dynasty and "mixing" is only something that can be proven via hard facts and evidence. This has nothing to do with America or African Americans as NEITHER group existed in the 18th dynasty. This solely has to do with the people of the Nile and the indigenous types of people along the Nile at the time, as well as the culture and tradition of choosing a royal heir to the throne at the time. The culture of Egypt was such that promoting a King of obvious foreign ancestry was looked down upon. It is no different than any other system of royalty any where else in the world. Relying on generalizations do not prove anything and are meaningless when it comes down to it.
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To be fair, KING magazine puts some dark-skinned women on their cover. But it does seem like many of them sell out after a while.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian: If Maahes' movie is successful it will be a blessing to African Americans and it will be a pivotal event. I hope he succeeds.
I actually would have rather seen more indigenous black Egyptian actors and other black Africans in general. Ancient Egypt was an African civilization so Africans should be in a movie about it.
Just because African Americans, as members of American society, can project their voices loudly, with greater access to media and internet outlets that are international in scope, does not make this an issue of African American history. It is an issue of African history and it should be something that draws input from historians across Africa from Sudan to Egypt and elsewhere in Africa. I appreciate hearing the opinion of Maahes on ancient Egypt, but he is not the only voice out there. What is the opinion of all those other Nile Valley folks we post in the pictures on these threads about the features indigenous to the Nile? What about the citizen's of Qurna and their opinions? What about all the voiceless laborers who have been excavating the relics of Egypt's past? Their voices and points of view are as important, if not more than that of AAs, simply because they have FIRST HAND knowledge that AAs do not and ARE direct descendants of ancient Egypt.
But keep in mind that MOST of the research and publications on Ancient Egypt are done by NONE EGYPTIANS. So right there THAT should tell you that there is going to be a problem of distortion due to NON NATIVES being the ones writing the history, especially Eurocentric scholars. Ideally, it is the INDIGENOUS Egyptians who should be the PRIMARY scholars in the field, but again the history of Egypt has disadvantaged them in this respect up to now. Zahi Hawass is an Egyptian, but one loyal to the foreign institutions that pay his salary. And even with that he is not the only voice to be heard from Egypt. There are other Egyptians in other parts of Egypt who also have a voice on THEIR history and THEIR culture and THEIR past and THEIR identity.
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quote:Originally posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian
Never heard of Red??? Never heard of Onyx???
These African Americans on EgyptSearch are not being real.
Don't be silly.. Every single last one of those people identify-identified themselves as black.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian: Malcolm was called Detroit Red in an earlier life.
We had a comedian Redd Foxx
So, why are these African Americans upset over the term Red.
The Rapper Redman:
The Rapper Onyx. I am not into Rap music.
Never heard of Red??? Never heard of Onyx???
These African Americans on EgyptSearch are not being real.
Actually none of this has anything to do with AAs other than the fact that they have the power to bring attention to the issue. AAs do not consider ancient Egypt as African American history, they consider it as AFRICAN history. The diversity of the Nile Valley in ancient times is not a simple juxtaposition of African and NON African mixture. It was primarily African, with many different cultures, customs and identities that eventually merged to become dynastic Egypt. That culture and that identity is what is in question. The fact that AAs want to see ancient Egypt in its ancient African context does not mean that they feel Ancient Egypt was closer to THEM than anyone else. That is ridiculous.
The only reason AAs are figuring so prominently in this movie is because of the wealth and power of the American movie industry and because American actors are internationally recognized, no matter what background they come from. This is no different than Ben Kingsley playing Mohatmas Ghandi or Elizabeth Taylor playing cleopatra. Whenever you deal with Hollywood they are always going to choose American actors first over those closer to the people and cultures in question. The most notable exception to this being Mel Gibson's movie on ancient civilizations in Central America. That is not a African American thing it is a Hollywood thing.
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quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: To be fair, KING magazine puts some dark-skinned women on their cover. But it does seem like many of them sell out after a while.
King puts on what is popular. And Vida is popular among African American blacks. That has nothing to do with selling out, it has to do with catering to your customer base and SELLING magazines.
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