posted
This is not a conspiracy topic as some might say, but Edward Hooper's book (The River: A Journey Back to the Source of HIV and AIDS) could lead us to find a cure against AIDS, and the book got support from many leading scientists around world. A hearing was held in The Royal Society in London after the book came out, which is VERY BIG and that we can not refuse his theory.
To sum up his theory;
The location coincides dramatically. The earliest known cases of AIDS occurred in central Africa, in the same regions where Koprowski's polio vaccine was given to over a million people in 1957-1960.
The timing coincides. There is no documented case of HIV infection or AIDS before 1959. Centuries of the slave trade and European exploitation of Africa exposed Africans and others to all other diseases then known; it is implausible that HIV could have been present and spreading in Africa without being recognised.
Polio vaccines are grown (cultured) on monkey kidneys which could have been contaminated by SIVs. Polio vaccines could not be screened for SIV contamination before 1985.
Another monkey virus, SV-40, is known to have been passed to humans through polio vaccines. A specific pool of Koprowski's vaccine was later shown to have been contaminated by an unknown virus.
In order for a virus to infect a different species, it is helpful to reduce the resistance of the new host's immune system. Koprowski's polio vaccine was given to many children less than one month old, before their immune systems were fully developed. Indeed, in one trial, infants were given 15 times the standard dose in order to ensure effective immunisation.
He interviewed also doctors who participate the vacine against polio, and the film (shown on national TV across the world)also shows the ugly face of colonialism(I recommend not to watch it if you can't handle strong images)
One of the scenes shows how 2 mio. people were forced to vaccinee a trial drug--and some of these people participate the film. 2 MILLION PEOPLE!
posted
Fascinating. The only thing I knew about the origin of HIV was that is descended from SIV (Simian Immunodeficiency Virus) which is basically the virus that gives monkeys AIDS. The biggest mystery was how the virus was able to jump species and thereby change from SIV to HIV with the latter able to infect humans. The earliest known reports of HIV that I have heard of was an American sailor who contracted it somehow in Africa. Some say the guy was bitten by a monkey.
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Apparently, HIV can be stopped in its tracks (i.e. from spreading or multiplying) by ingesting 15 grams of Vitamin C per day.
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Machiavelli: Apparently, HIV can be stopped in its tracks (i.e. from spreading or multiplying) by ingesting 15 grams of Vitamin C per day.
posted
Well, that's what Patrick Holford claims in his book, Optimum Nutrition BiblePosts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
If you have an amazon account, check out this page on living with AIDS.
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
AIDs was created in a LAb by the same people who wanted population reduction. They have the cure but it will destroy there purpose for creating it they lied to u and told u it came from Gays and monkeys but how can u trust them to give u a cure when they tried to kill Us All **** Every Government Expecially America Britian Israel and Every European DEvil.
-------------------- Hikuptah Al-Masri Posts: 526 | From: Aswan Egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Hikuptah: AIDs was created in a LAb by the same people who wanted population reduction. They have the cure but it will destroy there purpose for creating it they lied to u and told u it came from Gays and monkeys but how can u trust them to give u a cure when they tried to kill Us All **** Every Government Expecially America Britian Israel and Every European DEvil.
Africas population isn't that big except for Nigeria, Ethiopia and Egypt, They should have spread it in Eastern and Southern Asia more! But I don't believe it but you never know....
Posts: 35 | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
This topic is the one topic that African Americans are very familiar with. We know ... Well if you ask most African Americans we will tell you that the government created AIDS as a biological war product.
Peace!~
Posts: 951 | From: where rules end and freedom begins | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
This is pretty wild stuff. It seems we have a conspiracy theory around every corner these days. I guess my question would be why would any power block would want to kill off the labor supply in one of the areas where they attain much of their raw materials?
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
That is a quite old report. There have been other older studies (or even the same one) that pretty much said that the spread of aids was due to IMPROPER HYGENIC practices of the NGOs using impoperly trained personnel. It pretty much has been known for a while that HUMANS, ie those conducting IMMUNIZATIONS and other MEDICAL activities spread the Aids virus in Africa. Now some will want to DENY it, but, as I said before, there are quite a few reports out now that all say pretty much the same thing. This report, however, does go a LITTLE further in suggesting that the JUMP from MONKEYS to HUMANS was purely due to MAN MADE CIRCUMSTANCES. Ironically it would be HARD to see how a ONE IN A MILLION chance of SUPPOSEDLY sterilized needles being contaminated by a MONKEY virus, would then be spread through a LARGE SWATH of the continent, WITHOUT HUMANS PURPOSELY ASSISTING THE PROCESS. Realistically if it WAS just a freak accident, only a FEW people would have been affected.....
Posts: 8895 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I can tell from Doug M's post, that he is the only one who watched the film.
So please response only when you watched the documentary, OK? This film won many awards in international scene, and shown on national TV in many countries. Many people believe that thanks to Hooper's book, the cure AIDS is in near future, because his theory of origin of AIDS.
Rest of you all, stay on topic. Thank you!
Posts: 2198 | Registered: Jun 2006
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How about the hypothesis that the AIDS numbers are wildly overblown for political, ideological and financial reasons. I won't elaborate but why not--in the spirit of critical inquiry--reflect on the analyses done by people like ex-London Times science reporter, Neville Hodgkinson and medical researcher and Austrian medical doctor, Christian Fiala. Both of these individuals have spent extensive time in Africa surveying and analysing the orthodox claims about AIDS there.
Both names can be easily googled with a plethora of sites for your perusal. Reply back with your insights if you see fit.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
About 15-20 years ago, a few reports stated that AID in Africa is a psychological disease, not in the sense of psychiatric manifestation but cultural beliefs and prejudices, bothe from outside in inside the country. Much of AIDS overlaps in lack of public health policy and ignorance in the many tribals groups world view regarding sex and nutrition. The public health portion is that there is a lack of medical facilities to vaccinate, followup and surveill malaria and sleeping sickness. This overlaps into AIDS syndrome, lack of nutrition and the tools to differentiate AID vs malaria vs sleeping sickness vs nutritional deficiency. AIDS is real but government policies would rather buy arms/weapons than take care of the peoples' health. The average AIDS patient is US lives from 5-25 years, while the average AIDS patient in Africa may live 6 months to 3 years!
Lack of sexual education and health consequences are often ignored so the consequences are very real!
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
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Researchers have long suspected that chimpanzees were the source of HIV-1, the AIDS virus, but proof from the wild was missing. A team led by Beatrice Hahn, professor of medicine at the University of Alabama in Birmingham, has now detected antibodies against the HIV-1 precursor-- along with nucleic acids from the virus itself-- in the scat of wild chimps. The HIV-1 progenitor appears to have originated in southern Cameroon, then made its way down the Sangha River to Kinshasa, Democratic Republic of Congo, where the first documented infections in people occurred.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Nicholas Bakalar (Discover):
Researchers have long suspected that chimpanzees were the source of HIV-1, the AIDS virus, but proof from the wild was missing. A team led by Beatrice Hahn, professor of medicine at the University of Alabama in Birmingham, has now detected antibodies against the HIV-1 precursor-- along with nucleic acids from the virus itself-- in the scat of wild chimps. The HIV-1 progenitor appears to have originated in southern Cameroon, then made its way down the Sangha River to Kinshasa, Democratic Republic of Congo, where the first documented infections in people occurred.
posted
^judging from the evidence HIV-1 is now carried by local population of chimps. As to its spread to humans, the theory is that one of these chimps or perhaps the carrier of the original strain transmitted the virus to a human somehow (not necessarily through sexual contact). Viruses have been known to jump species through methods which might not be used in usual cases. Thus, some think it may have been transmitted through a bite etc.
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^judging from the evidence HIV-1 is now carried by local population of chimps. As to its spread to humans, the theory is that one of these chimps or perhaps the carrier of the original strain transmitted the virus to a human somehow (not necessarily through sexual contact). Viruses have been known to jump species through methods which might not be used in usual cases. Thus, some think it may have been transmitted through a bite etc.
In otherwords, they have no evidence that it was transmitted from a monkey in Africa to a human being! Moreover, how did it become virtually a worldwide phenomenon?!
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
^ What do you mean they have no evidence?! I just cited a source which said they found it in monkey scat. How it spread to humans was species jumping which is not to hard since as primates humans are closely related to monkeys. Exactly the method of how it transmitted to humans is presumed from a bite, either that or you want to get into the nasty theory of sex with a monkey.
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I meant what I just said. Does it really need further English translation?
quote:Djehuti:
I just cited a source which said they found it in monkey scat.
And yet, you cannot specify how this presumably was transferred into human beings, or that the earliest case had been identified in an African individual?
quote:Djehuti:
How it spread to humans was species jumping which is not to hard since as primates humans are closely related to monkeys.
Are you suggesting that this was transferred by way of evolution to modern humanity?
quote:Djehuti:
Exactly the method of how it transmitted to humans is presumed from a bite, either that or you want to get into the nasty theory of sex with a monkey.
...Presumed by whom, and by examining which patient? Now, lets talk and determine what you call 'evidence'.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ What do you mean they have no evidence?! I just cited a source which said they found it in monkey scat. How it spread to humans was species jumping which is not to hard since as primates humans are closely related to monkeys. Exactly the method of how it transmitted to humans is presumed from a bite, either that or you want to get into the nasty theory of sex with a monkey.
Common Djehuti, your far to good of a poster to belief some b.s like this. You wont believe that the Olmecs were black or even African in nature but you will take the theory of a monkey?
WOW!!!
This is a biological product that was created by the government to control population. There has been a lot of proof provided which indicated foul play.
The government has this one tool which makes people believe truths to be lies and that is the two words called "Conspiracy Theory".
Monkeys have been biting humans for thousands of years. lol ... AA's don't beleive for one moment that such a b.s story is truth. We know the governmet to which we live under; is the responsible party for this.
Posts: 951 | From: where rules end and freedom begins | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
AIDS as a pandemic disease is very real enough alright, and hence, not merely just the "African problem" as often portrayed, e.g. you have 'celebrities' in America presumably dedicating concerts or profits from products like cell phones in the name of eradicating "AIDS in Africa". What is deemed the HIV precursor, which is not HIV in and of itself, simply raises the 'possibility' of the transmission of the disease from the monkey strain; it doesn't actually 'prove' first cases of HIV occurred in Africa and how it was transmitted, nor have answers been provided on how HIV became pandemic. But as I said, this 'pandemic' status is quite real, and needs to be addressed as something which affects people globally, not just in Africa.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Supercar: I meant what I just said. Does it really need further English translation?
^I say the exact same to you! Viruses have the ability to "jump species", or infect another species of organism from the ones they typically infect. Thus, how do you explain the recent outbreak of Avian (Bird) flu in humans? The Avian flu originated among avians or birds but a strain eventually evolved to infect humans as well. Unless someone wants to propose a conspiracy theory for that disease as well. Perhaps a racist mad scientist created Bird flu to exterminate Asians as such populations are the ones suffering from the pandemic?!
Perhaps reading a source or two can better your understanding:
Shackelton’s work can be considered a genomic analysis of evolution in action. "Viruses don’t leave fossils," she explains. "But if you compare the differences between extant viral sequences, you can calibrate the molecular clock."
Correct, and scientists know HIV directly descended from the SIV which is the much older simian version that affects monkeys. The article I cited before only verifies that HIV evolved from SIV by evidence of HIV-1 in monkey scat.
Viruses penetrate the interior of cells by binding to receptors on the host cell’s surface. The binding occurs in much the same way that a key fits into a lock. Sometimes proteins on the outer coat of a virus mutate enough to match the receptors on the cells of species other than ones that the virus usually infects. This is what has happened with avian flu. Once in a new species, the virus either dies out or is preserved and adds mutations that enable it to move from host to host within the new species. This can lead to widespread infection.
Yes, a virus's capability to infect a cell depends on how compatible the virus's capsid or protein coat is the cell. Viruses are very selective about the cells they infect and so a particular strain of virus infects a particular species. It is when viruses mutate that they are able to change their capsid configuration and may be able to infect other species. The more genetically related the cells of a species is, the less difficult it is for a mutation to be potentially affective in creating a new strain capable of infecting that other species. Thus it was easier for SIV in monkeys to evolve into HIV in humans than it was for Avian flu to infect humans because monkeys are closely related to humans.
Shackelton wanted to understand the process of host-switching, the molecular mechanisms viruses employ to jump from one species to another. "We found the carnivore parvoviruses to be an excellent model for studying the molecular changes that accompany host-switching," she said, "because it’s one of the very few viruses for which we have adequate sequence data before and after the cross-species transfer."
For those who don't know carnivore parvovirus is a virus that infects small carnivores usually pets. The virus originated in cats, but about 30 years ago jumped to dogs as well. The 'carnivorus' was used because cats are related to dogs as being in the same order carnivora.
Speaking of which, there is also a virus called FIV; in which the F stands for felines. And yes, it is basically the cat version of HIV. The disease was first found among wild cats in Africa, the same continent that is ihabited by SIV carrying monkeys. Coincidence? I think not.
quote:And yet, you cannot specify how this presumably was transferred into human beings, or that the earliest case had been identified in an African individual?
Exactly what method the virus was transferred to a human is not certain. Though there is the possiblity of sexual contact between a human and monkey, uh.. scientists usually prefer more decent proposals such as the monkey and human both had open wounds in from which the virus was ablet to travel, or that the human was simply bitten by the monkey which is the most likely scenrio of all. It is possible for the virus to be transmitted through the saliva of original host. In fact FIV can be transmitted between cats through saliva on bite wounds and not just sexual contact or blood.
As for the earliest known cases of HIV, the first was interestingly enough from a plasma sample taken in 1959 from an adult male living in what is now the Democratic Republic of Congo! The second was found in tissue samples from an American teenager who died in St. Louis in 1969, and the third HIV found in tissue samples from a Norwegian sailor who died around 1976. Very interesting indeed that the first case is indeed of an African man from the Congo, where the hunting and eating of monkeys is very common! From studies of the blood plasma sample, scientists estimate that HIV was first able to infect humans as early as the 1940s.
quote:Are you suggesting that this was transferred by way of evolution to modern humanity?
If you are asking that the virus evolved with homo-sapiens from simian ancestors, NO.
Rather it was the virus itself that evolved-- from SIV to HIV.
quote:Presumed by whom, and by examining which patient? Now, lets talk and determine what you call 'evidence'.
Presumed by scientists who've studied the virus and considering the first case of an African man from the monkey inhabited Congo.
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by RU2religious: Common Djehuti, your far to good of a poster to belief some b.s like this. You wont believe that the Olmecs were black or even African in nature but you will take the theory of a monkey?
LOL Your comment above is funny since the converse should apply to YOU! How can you call decades of scientific research on the virus, b.s. yet you espouse to as you say the "belief" in African Olmecs??! Like the origin of HIV, whether the Olmecs were Africans or not is not a matter of "belief" but on FACTS. Again, I am not denying the possibility of an African crossing of the Atlantic and into America, but it will take more than just-- coincidental similarities in architect and other semblances of culture or physical features since as we all even features deemed so-called "caucasian" can be African and all features are not confined to one set of populations but is endemic-- to say that Olmecs were black Africans!!
Again, I wait for conclusive evidence and revelating discoveries from mainstream archaeology and anthropology to verify your claims and so far there have been non. And again I say those in the mainstream and not necessarily the mainstream itself and it's NO it does not need to be from white experts or black experts, or even Hispanic experts who are native to those regions (though natives could help alot). I just need conclusive evidence. And not more Clyde Winters fanfare!
quote:WOW!!!
I know, your naïveté and guilelessness is astounding!
quote:This is a biological product that was created by the government to control population. There has been a lot of proof provided which indicated foul play.
And exactly what is this evidence you speak of?? I suppose the government also created Bird Flu to "control" the Asian population and we know there are a hell of alot of Asians, especially in China. Perhaps the Chinese government did it to control their own population since the one-child thing isn't helping that much!
quote:The government has this one tool which makes people believe truths to be lies and that is the two words called "Conspiracy Theory".
Which is funny, because a 'theory' in science is one that is supported by evidence and is different from a hypothesis or presumption or guess. Perhaps what your beliefs should be named "conspiracy hypothesis" or even "conspiracy wild-presumption" instead?
quote:Monkeys have been biting humans for thousands of years. lol ... AA's don't beleive for one moment that such a b.s story is truth. We know the governmet to which we live under; is the responsible party for this.
And since when did only African Americans, let alone Africans suffer from HIV? Are you aware that the virus is problem in India, East Asia, and even Eastern Europe (yup, it is a problem for whites also)
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Young Horus: ^LOL Djehuti, what happened to taking a Christmas break?
I'm still on break, but if you're referring to my actual vacation, it's over I'm home now.
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I meant what I just said. Does it really need further English translation?
^I say the exact same to you!
Now that's just plainly retarded; was it not you who asked what I meant by my earlier post, even though it is spelt out in plain English?
quote:Djehuti:
Viruses have the ability to "jump species", or infect another species of organism from the ones they typically infect.
And how does this answer the questions pertaining to the AIDS transmission into human beings from a monkey?
quote:Djehuti:
Thus, how do you explain the recent outbreak of Avian (Bird) flu in humans?
...because birds are largely eaten across the globe, duh! Surely, you aren't suggesting it occurred through sexual intercourse with birds, are you?
quote:Djehuti:
The Avian flu originated among avians or birds but a strain eventually evolved to infect humans as well.
LOL. See post above.
quote:Djehuti:
Unless someone wants to propose a conspiracy theory for that disease as well. Perhaps a racist mad scientist created Bird flu to exterminate Asians as such populations are the ones suffering from the pandemic?!
I presume you have the answer to this question, since you were the one who mentioned the subject of birds.
quote:Djehuti:
Perhaps reading a source or two can better your understanding:
Shackelton’s work can be considered a genomic analysis of evolution in action. "Viruses don’t leave fossils," she explains. "But if you compare the differences between extant viral sequences, you can calibrate the molecular clock."
Correct, and scientists know HIV directly descended from the SIV which is the much older simian version that affects monkeys. The article I cited before only verifies that HIV evolved from SIV by evidence of HIV-1 in monkey scat.
Viruses penetrate the interior of cells by binding to receptors on the host cell’s surface. The binding occurs in much the same way that a key fits into a lock. Sometimes proteins on the outer coat of a virus mutate enough to match the receptors on the cells of species other than ones that the virus usually infects. This is what has happened with avian flu. Once in a new species, the virus either dies out or is preserved and adds mutations that enable it to move from host to host within the new species. This can lead to widespread infection.
Yes, a virus's capability to infect a cell depends on how compatible the virus's capsid or protein coat is the cell. Viruses are very selective about the cells they infect and so a particular strain of virus infects a particular species. It is when viruses mutate that they are able to change their capsid configuration and may be able to infect other species. The more genetically related the cells of a species is, the less difficult it is for a mutation to be potentially affective in creating a new strain capable of infecting that other species. Thus it was easier for SIV in monkeys to evolve into HIV in humans than it was for Avian flu to infect humans because monkeys are closely related to humans.
Shackelton wanted to understand the process of host-switching, the molecular mechanisms viruses employ to jump from one species to another. "We found the carnivore parvoviruses to be an excellent model for studying the molecular changes that accompany host-switching," she said, "because it’s one of the very few viruses for which we have adequate sequence data before and after the cross-species transfer."
For those who don't know carnivore parvovirus is a virus that infects small carnivores usually pets. The virus originated in cats, but about 30 years ago jumped to dogs as well. The 'carnivorus' was used because cats are related to dogs as being in the same order carnivora.
Speaking of which, there is also a virus called FIV; in which the F stands for felines. And yes, it is basically the cat version of HIV. The disease was first found among wild cats in Africa, the same continent that is ihabited by SIV carrying monkeys. Coincidence? I think not.
Now that you are done with the long-winded post, the question that should be asked, is whether you understood it. For instance, how does this post prove AIDS first occurred in Africa amongst Africans? How does it prove how it was transmitted? Come up with answers to this, and then we can talk.
quote:Djehuti:
quote:And yet, you cannot specify how this presumably was transferred into human beings, or that the earliest case had been identified in an African individual?
Exactly what method the virus was transferred to a human is not certain.
Exactly, because of lack of evidence.
quote:Djehuti:
Though there is the possiblity of sexual contact between a human and monkey, uh...
I knew you could be counted on for wild theories that have yet to be substantiated.
quote:Djehuti:
scientists usually prefer more decent proposals such as the monkey and human both had open wounds in from which the virus was ablet to travel, or that the human was simply bitten by the monkey which is the most likely scenrio of all.
I 'prefer' strong evidence, not mere hypotheticals.
quote:Djehuti:
It is possible for the virus to be transmitted through the saliva of original host. In fact FIV can be transmitted between cats through saliva on bite wounds and not just sexual contact or blood.
You do realize that you haven't presented little in way of evidence of what was requested of you, considering the length of your post, don't you(?).
quote:Djehuti:
As for the earliest known cases of HIV, the first was interestingly enough from a plasma sample taken in 1959 from an adult male living in what is now the Democratic Republic of Congo!
Update yourself; this has been strongly questioned by experts. Nice try though.
From your nearby wiki...
First it was stated...
1958
A 25-year-old printer from England named David Carr, who had served in the Royal Navy between 1955 and 1957, contracts a series of mysterious ailments including Pneumocystis carinii. He dies early the next year (1959). In 1990, tests by a hospital in Manchester reveal HIV in Carr's tissue samples, and he is briefly recognized as the first known AIDS death. Subsequent, more sophisticated testing at the Aaron Diamond AIDS Research Center at New York University Medical School reveals the HIV to have been a laboratory contaminant.[1]
Then...
1959 The first known case of HIV in a human occurs in a person who died in the Congo, seemingly later confirmed as having HIV infection from his preserved blood samples (Zhu et al., 1998). However, according to the authors of the 1959 discovery, they never found, nor alleged to have found, HIV, or anything like a full virus. According to these authors, even “attempts to amplify HIV-1 fragments of >300 base pairs (bp) were unsuccessful, . . . However, after numerous attempts, four shorter sequences were obtained” that only represented small portions of two of the six genes of the complete AIDS virus. Citation: Zhu T, Korber BT, Nahmias AJ, Hooper E, Sharp PM and Ho DD. An African HIV-1 sequence from 1959 and implications for the origin of the epidemic. Nature 1998;391(Feb. 5):594-597.
In New York City, a 49-year-old Haitian-born shipping clerk dies of Pneumocystis carinii pneumonia, a disease closely associated with AIDS victims. Dr. Gordon Hennigar, who performed the postmortem examination of the man's body, has been quoted in numerous publications saying that he believes the man probably had AIDS.[2]
quote:Djehuti:
The second was found in tissue samples from an American teenager who died in St. Louis in 1969, and the third HIV found in tissue samples from a Norwegian sailor who died around 1976.
...indeed, cases which everyone agrees on, none of which involve Africans.
quote:Djehuti:
Very interesting indeed that the first case is indeed of an African man from the Congo, where the hunting and eating of monkeys is very common!
Very interesting that you casually browse through the internet for pieces of information, and deriving conclusions, without first doing a more 'thorough' research. See the post, two posts ago. Moreover, there is presumably a 1958 case, which seemed to have escaped your radar.
quote:Djehuti:
If you are asking that the virus evolved with homo-sapiens from simian ancestors, NO.
Rather it was the virus itself that evolved-- from SIV to HIV.
Well of course, the virus had to have evolved from a predecessor. I was questioning your 'justification' point about primates being closely related to humans, and hence automatically vindicates you in some fashion, per the issues on the table.
quote:Djehuti:
quote:Presumed by whom, and by examining which patient? Now, lets talk and determine what you call 'evidence'.
Presumed by scientists who've studied the virus and considering the first case of an African man from the monkey inhabited Congo.
What is the name of the scientist who has determined how the virus was transmitted into a human being from a monkey. And what is the name of the African patient whom this "scientist" examined, and determined that the cause was through the bite of a monkey, and hence the first confidently reported case of AIDS? And please, don't repeat your highly questionable point about the Congolese dude from 1959!
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
Horus, I appreciate your ways of moderation, but Djehuti's name calling will not go unanswered. Should my responses to him be deleted, then surely the post which instigated that response, should equally be deleted. His post triggered the response it received, precisely because it was offending.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
I got to go now, but I hope I can try to answer your questions to tomorrow.
I'll be here; I'm not going anywhere.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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guys next time before you reply just log off and come back when your not so flamed up or irritated,that way you will keep the standard of this forum high and if you feel offended by somebody's post please send me a PMPosts: 107 | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by RU2religious: Common Djehuti, your far to good of a poster to belief some b.s like this. You wont believe that the Olmecs were black or even African in nature but you will take the theory of a monkey?
LOL Your comment above is funny since the converse should apply to YOU! How can you call decades of scientific research on the virus, b.s. yet you espouse to as you say the "belief" in African Olmecs??! Like the origin of HIV, whether the Olmecs were Africans or not is not a matter of "belief" but on FACTS. Again, I am not denying the possibility of an African crossing of the Atlantic and into America, but it will take more than just-- coincidental similarities in architect and other semblances of culture or physical features since as we all even features deemed so-called "caucasian" can be African and all features are not confined to one set of populations but is endemic-- to say that Olmecs were black Africans!!
Again, I wait for conclusive evidence and revelating discoveries from mainstream archaeology and anthropology to verify your claims and so far there have been non. And again I say those in the mainstream and not necessarily the mainstream itself and it's NO it does not need to be from white experts or black experts, or even Hispanic experts who are native to those regions (though natives could help alot). I just need conclusive evidence. And not more Clyde Winters fanfare!
quote:WOW!!!
I know, your naïveté and guilelessness is astounding!
quote:This is a biological product that was created by the government to control population. There has been a lot of proof provided which indicated foul play.
And exactly what is this evidence you speak of?? I suppose the government also created Bird Flu to "control" the Asian population and we know there are a hell of alot of Asians, especially in China. Perhaps the Chinese government did it to control their own population since the one-child thing isn't helping that much!
quote:The government has this one tool which makes people believe truths to be lies and that is the two words called "Conspiracy Theory".
Which is funny, because a 'theory' in science is one that is supported by evidence and is different from a hypothesis or presumption or guess. Perhaps what your beliefs should be named "conspiracy hypothesis" or even "conspiracy wild-presumption" instead?
quote:Monkeys have been biting humans for thousands of years. lol ... AA's don't beleive for one moment that such a b.s story is truth. We know the governmet to which we live under; is the responsible party for this.
And since when did only African Americans, let alone Africans suffer from HIV? Are you aware that the virus is problem in India, East Asia, and even Eastern Europe (yup, it is a problem for whites also)
Then you have the admissions of the actual doctor who is dead now...
Boyd Graves have the flow chart.
This is proof ...
quote:Graves put the flow chart on his website www.BoydGraves.com and over 26,000 people have downloaded it. "We've got two dozen scientists and medical doctors who have reviewed this material and to a person, they all agree this federal program is at the heart of the genesis of HIV and AIDS."
Graves has a special interest in the program for he was diagnosed HIV positive. In doing his research he came upon a patented cure for AIDS which he took and now says he is symptom free.
Good LinkPosts: 951 | From: where rules end and freedom begins | Registered: Jun 2004
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Dr. Graves also claims that the scientific name for AIDS is Mycoplasma Visna, and that a cure for the virus has long been patented, U.S. Patent Number 5,676,977 (Antelman Technologies Ltd. - Jan. 98, 5,676,977: drugs known as Tetrasil/Imusil), some of that information which can be found at the following links:
I got to go now, but I **hope** I can try to answer your questions to tomorrow.
...spoken like a questionably-secure individual who knows very well that the pending specific questions at hand have yet to be answered. Please do use all the "hope" you can get, to see that these questions are answered.
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quote:LOL Your comment above is funny since the converse should apply to YOU! How can you call decades of scientific research on the virus, b.s. yet you espouse to as you say the "belief" in African Olmecs??! Like the origin of HIV, whether the Olmecs were Africans or not is not a matter of "belief" but on FACTS. Again, I am not denying the possibility of an African crossing of the Atlantic and into America, but it will take more than just-- coincidental similarities in architect and other semblances of culture or physical features since as we all even features deemed so-called "caucasian" can be African and all features are not confined to one set of populations but is endemic-- to say that Olmecs were black Africans!!
Again, I wait for conclusive evidence and revelating discoveries from mainstream archaeology and anthropology to verify your claims and so far there have been non. And again I say those in the mainstream and not necessarily the mainstream itself and it's NO it does not need to be from white experts or black experts, or even Hispanic experts who are native to those regions (though natives could help alot). I just need conclusive evidence. And not more Clyde Winters fanfare!
Ok ... lol I personally don't believe that the Olmecs were African. I do believe that they were black. The words 'Black' & 'African' are NOT synonymous in meaning so no ... I'm not a Dr. Clyde Winters nut-hugger. Never the less I feel that he has made a very good case and I don't think there has been legit evidence to debunk it. This is not to say that I believe he's correct on this debate or wrong but his point has been express and I'm leaning toward it unless legit proof, proves otherwise.
This is only an opinion ...
Yet, that is not what I was saying in that first statement. Let me repeat the statement.
quote:Common Djehuti, your far to good of a poster to belief some b.s like this. You wont believe that the Olmecs were black or even African in nature but you will take the theory of a monkey?
The comment was ... if your going to believe european scholars when they say a monkey cause this out-break ... then why is it so hard to listen to an Afrocentric scholar who has provide his form of proof that the Olmecs were African?
I mean (no bad point intended) ... If your going to accept one form of evil i.e. Eurocentrism, then why not accept the other which is Afrocentrism? Or if you deny one then deny the other ...
This argument seems selective. You accept the scholarship of the europeans on this subject which is a disease that seems to have been targetted toward people of color and gays verses listening to African scholars who say through their research this this disease is man made and was created in the United States ...
Your next comment is the most suprising of them all
quote:I know, your naïveté and guilelessness is astounding!
To say that I lack sophistication and I'm tricky is far fetched. I don't know why such a statement would come from you when I've done nothing but try to keep it peaceful ... as a matter of fact everyone on here know that I try to keep my comments peaceful dispite the fact that I might be a little un-sophisticated ...
quote:And exactly what is this evidence you speak of?? I suppose the government also created Bird Flu to "control" the Asian population and we know there are a hell of alot of Asians, especially in China. Perhaps the Chinese government did it to control their own population since the one-child thing isn't helping that much!
evidence above ...
quote:Which is funny, because a 'theory' in science is one that is supported by evidence and is different from a hypothesis or presumption or guess. Perhaps what your beliefs should be named "conspiracy hypothesis" or even "conspiracy wild-presumption" instead?
Your example is correct which is why I have presented evidence ...
quote:And since when did only African Americans, let alone Africans suffer from HIV? Are you aware that the virus is problem in India, East Asia, and even Eastern Europe (yup, it is a problem for whites also)
I never debate on this forum because I learn from you guys on here but I have to say that this post was extremely weak on your part Djehuti ... Look at your quote above once again and look what I wrote ... Your post above doesn't address what was said.
I WROTE:
quote:Monkeys have been biting humans for thousands of years. lol ... AA's don't beleive for one moment that such a b.s story is truth. We know the governmet to which we live under; is the responsible party for this.
Had you read this properly you would have seen that I was expressing and opinion of what African American don't believe ... YOU made it seem as thought I was saying African American were the only ones suffering from HIV.
This one caught me off gaurd and I'm going to assume that you've had a hard day ... so let bygones be by-gones ...
Peace!~
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RU2religious, I'll admit I'm a bit lazy at this point to go through the link. Do you have the specifics of the arguement put forth by the advocate, in this case Dr. Graves, to suggest that this was man-made disease used as basically a 'biological warfare' weaponry? What gives with the U.S. patent #5676977, presumably for treating or curing AIDS; has it been used. If not, what is the stated reason?
Hopefully by the time we are through with this thread, those who proclaim to have answers to specifics of HIV's origins will have given us all the necessary answers, to the point of surpassing the 'experts' who admit that they have yet to provide the unquestionable answer to this question beyond the present 'weak' hypothetical scenarios put forth; who knows?!
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According to the article above "Good Link", Boyd Graves has actually used the treatment for himself and he is supposedly cured from this disease.
I have a link which shows strong evidence which suggest that his cause is not a conspiracy ...
I have to look it my archives ... but I have the actual document or quote from the doctor which suggest that this disease was not intentionally created but it was something that they stumbled apon. There were trying to create an air-born cancer according to the doctor ...
I'm looking for the doctors who actually agree with his findings ... I have to contact my brother ... he has all of this information ...
He's not the only one who suggest that they have found a cure. There is a man that my family members dealt with here in California that was ran out of the U.S into Mexico for finding the cure for Cancer and AIDS.
There is also a guy in Honduras who has the cure for AIDS. Left eye (singer from America who died) was down their getting treated for AIDS whom she contracted from Andre Rison (NFL Football star)... This man was also removed from American soil. The drug companies stand to loose a lot of money in America if they stay around here so people like Boyd Graves and Dr. Gary Davis.
Dr.Gary Davis ... has another cure for AIDS which he has preformed on Americans in Oaklohoma, U.S.A .
He is currently on the run and is hiding for his life because of threats he have on his life. I didn't believe the story until I was sharing the story with a real good friend. He then called his mother on speaker phone and he asked his mother the name of his cousin who had the cure for AIDS and was actually using it in the U.S.A before he got ran out and his mother said it where I could hear it with my eyes ...
Gary Davis ...
He is another guy to research in concerns to Boyd Graves ...
When ever I see name calling on a subject like this ... I fear that people know more then what they want others to know ... so then I began to question the who who has abnormal anger ... If you know what I mean.
quote:Originally posted by Supercar: RU2religious, I'll admit I'm a bit lazy at this point to go through the link. Do you have the specifics of the arguement put forth by the advocate, in this case Dr. Graves, to suggest that this was man-made disease used as basically a 'biological warfare' weaponry? What gives with the U.S. patent #5676977, presumably for treating or curing AIDS; has it been used. If not, what is the stated reason?
Hopefully by the time we are through with this thread, those who proclaim to have answers to specifics of HIV's origins will have given us all the necessary answers, to the point of surpassing the 'experts' who admit that they have yet to provide the unquestionable answer to this question beyond the present 'weak' hypothetical scenarios put forth; who knows?!
DR. BOYD GRAVES' RESEARCH AND FLOWCHART PROOF OF INTENTIONAL DEVELOPMENT OF A VIRUS THAT KILLS
INTRODUCTION TO THE FLOWCHART BY DR. GRAVES:
The Smoking Gun of AIDS: a 1971 Flowchart by Boyd E. Graves, J.D.
In 1977, a secret federal virus program produced 15,000 gallons of AIDS. The record reveals the United States was represented by Dr. Robert Gallo and the USSR was represented by Dr. Novakhatskiy of the diabolical Ivanosky Institute. On August 21, 1999, the world first saw the flowchart of the plot to thin the Black Population.
The 1971 AIDS flowchart coordinates over 20,000 scientific papers and fifteen years of progress reports of a secret federal virus development program. The epidemiology of AIDS is an identical match to the "research logic" identified in the five section foldout. The flowchart is page 61 of Progress Report #8 (1971) of the Special Virus program of the United States of America. We today, challenge world scientists to discussion of this document find. We believe there is a daily, growing number of world experts who are all coming to the same conclusion regarding the significance of the flowchart. Dr. Garth Nicolson has examined the flowchart as well as other top notch experts from around the world. It is time for Dr. Michael Morrissey of Germany to examine the flowchart and report to the world. In addition, we have now examined the 1978 report. It is heresy to continue to further argue the program ended in 1977. The 1978 report of the development of AIDS leaves no doubt as to the ("narrow result") candidate virus sought by the United States. The flowchart conclusively proves a secret federal plot to develop a "contagious cancer" that "selectively kills."
Following the presentation of the flowchart in Canada, the same information was presented to the United States in the rotunda of the Western Reserve Historical Society in Cleveland. Shortly thereafter a major African newspaper called and for four days in a row, this issue was the feature story in an uncensored press. The people of Africa already know about the U.S. virus development program. It is time for the rest of us to know.
In January, the U.S. had no response to my two page abstract submitted to the African American AIDS 2000 conference. In February, the U.S. Congress had no response to the 3000 Americans who signed signature petitions calling for immediate review of the flowchart and progress reports of the secret virus development program. We firmly believe once the dust settles from the current election marathon, reviewing the special virus program will be the single most important pursuit of the 21st Century.
More scientists and doctors must join with Dr. Nicolson, Dr. Strecker, Dr. Cantwell, Dr. Horowitz, Dr. Lee, Dr. Wainwright, Dr. Halstead and Professor Boyle . In any public debate on this issue, we will continue to present the flowchart of the secret virus development program, as the "irrefutable missing link" in the true laboratory origin of AIDS. We have successfully navigated a federal maze and matrix and found a curtain surrounding the issue of AIDS. The 1999 discovery and presentation of the AIDS flowchart is a "smoke detector" wake up call. Society has an obligation to do more than don masks.
Non-inclusive random endnotes:
U.S. Special Virus program, Progress Report #8 (1971), pg. 61 (the flowchart)
National Security Defense Memorandum (NSDM) #314, Brent Scowcroft (1975).
"Special Message to the U.S. Congress on Problems of Population Growth", Richard M. Nixon, July 18, 1969
Public Law 91-213, "To Stabilize World Populations", John D. Rockefeller, III, Chairman, March 16, 1970
National Security Council Memorandum (NSCM) #46, "Black Africa and the U.S. Black Movement", Zbigniew Brezinski, March 17, 1978
COMMENTS OF HEALTH PROFESSIONALS ON DR GRAVES' FLOWCHART CONTENTIONS:
"JUST AS YOU, I BELIEVE THAT HIV-1 WAS A LABORATORY CREATION."
Prof. Garth Nicolson, Institute for Molecular Medicine February 12, 2001
Dr. Boyd Graves' research into the origin of the virus that causes AIDS, HIV, is important. His efforts have led to the discovery of a flowchart, created by the Special Virus Cancer Program (SVCP), that clearly shows that the research efforts of moving leukemia, lymphoma, and sarcoma viruses from lower species into primate and human cells in a 15 year period (1962-1978) was not accidental. Indeed, the flowchart reveals the systematic plan to examine many of these agents in the context of how, specifically, these agents would affect human immunology . . .Graves' research into the funding of the project, federal laws associated with the project, and his dogged pursuit of answers from authorities in the field and their associated Federal agencies is unparalleled. His legal actions to bring this matter to a head are important in that it will only be through legal means and subsequent Congressional review that this information will see the light of day. . . In this regard, then, Dr. Graves' efforts are at the core of finding the true origin of this global pandemic.
Robert E. Lee, M.S., M.S.W., L.C.S.W. March 12, 2001
"Dear Ed, Congratulations ! You are on the right path. Many of us greatly appreciate your excellent research !!!! Best Regards"
Dr. Bruce W. Halstead M.D. Director World Life Research Institute February 22, 2001
“State Origin: The Evidence of the Laboratory Birth of AIDS' the new book by author Boyd Ed Graves’ relays his trials and tribulations as the lead plaintiff for the people against the forces that wield global genocide. Lawyer Graves is the lead investigator of the “Special Virus Cancer Program” flow chart. . . Give support and attention to these history making efforts.”
Dr. Leonard G. Horowitz, author of "Emerging Viruses AIDS & Ebola Nature, Accident or Intentional?" 12.17.2000
"Although the "Special Virus" (SVCP) 'Flow Chart' is seemingly structured in such a manner that the world would not immediately recognize the real purpose of this officially sanctioned U.S. Federal Program, one has to ask oneself WHY was the flow chart even structured in the first instances??? If AIDS is not deactivated, within 66 years there will be no blacks in Africa."
Dr. Basil E. Wainright, Physicist & Three Time Nobel Nominee
Nairobi, Kenya November 2, 1999
Boyd Ed Graves simply brought a government document (1971 AIDS Flow Chart) to court. . . and demanded an investigation. The government knows well what is in that document and that it was not meant for public consumption. . .His accusations are not made lightly or out of bitterness. . .He is a patriotic American . . . everything he has told me is verifiable in government document libraries.
Dr. Vincent Gammil, Chemist August 8, 1999
"Without a doubt, the Special Virus Cancer Program Flowchart and its respective Progress Reports clearly establish The United States of America's creation of the AIDS hybrid virus, internal toxic lipoprotein and the mycoplasm packaging unit. It's no coincidence that The Who's Who of AIDS from Dr. Mathilde Krim, Dr. Garth Nicholson to Dr. Robert Gallo were contractors involved. That the major media overlooked this early attempt at gene therapy using specific cell membrane receptors, is unacceptable. That the global population was misled to AIDS is a crime against humanity. . . The Silence Must Be Broken."
Dr. Dean Loren, Esq. Nuclear Chemist, Attorney and Television Producer of Jewish World January 12, 2001
"The POZ article was a pathetic piece of reporting. The author jumped all over the place -- HIV dissenters, Kemron, etc, -- rather than concentrating on the important evidence that Ed Graves has collected on the man-made origin of AIDS. . . .POZ wanted to do a "whitewash" of this AIDS is man-made story. POZ can now say they covered the story (albeit unfairly) and continue to be the premier pimp AIDS magazine for the HIV drug industry. . . In short, Ed was "set up" -- pathetically by a Black reporter. . .What could be more "politically correct"????? Is there a "Movie of the Week" here????"
Alan Cantwell, Jr., M.D. author of AIDS and the Doctors of Death and Queer Blood. December 5, 2000 Hollywood, California
"Dear Mr. Graves: Thank you many times for your courageous sharing of the truth about beginning of AIDS. You deserve many Congressional Medals of Honor! Thank you for the two videos and information over the internet. God bless and comfort you with His love and mercy."
Joe Spenner 2/10/01
Dr. Graves I would like to commend you on your tireless effort to inform the uninformed people of the world to the true origin of the AIDS virus and the role that the United States of America played in its' creation. I was shocked to view the opinion of the CBC as to how they view the AIDS problem. Keep up the good work!
Sincerely,
Anthony J. Lawrence Sr. March 10, 2001
"Once you get a map, you can probably get there . . .Go Mr. Graves . . .Go!"
Lee Datts, JR. March 8, 2001
"We seem to have some pretty solid evidence on several fronts now that either a specific wipe out policy exists or that perhaps even more sinister who cares as long as we make lots of money is the only driving force. Thus, we have AIDS introduced, drugs that don't work, vaccines that kill, food additives that subvert. All you have to remember is that no matter how big, how successful, if you build a house of cards, one day it will fall down. Keep up the good work on the source of the AIDS, but I ask also spread hope, know this and other terrors can and other terrors can and are being cured. Best Regards."
Captain Richard Gibas, Malaysia October 2000
"After faithfully serving the United States - in military uniform - for over 23 years, my eyes FINALLY opened! American racism (institutionalized or not) is ingrained in the very fabric of its"democracy." No, it is NOT difficult for me to (now) believe that theAmerican government "invented" the AIDS virus to help eradicate its African-American (and OTHER unwanted) population. I invite your attention to my book (albeit a totally different subject) -http://www.inthecar.com-- which, because of my authorship, has "made" me literally unemployed and unemployable for over 5 years! "
Lonnie F. Dewitt
MY BROTHER BOYD,
THANK YOU FOR INFORMING THE COMMUNITY REGARDING THE ORIGINS OF HIV/AIDS. I HAVE WORKED WITH THE PRISON POPULATION AS A VOLUNTEER FOR 20 YEARS AND I DID HEAR ABOUT THIS, BUT NEVER WITH THE INFORMATION YOU ARE GIVING. AND I WANT YOU TO KNOW THAT YOU HAVE SUPPORT, AND NOW IS THE TIME. IF NOT NOW! WHEN? IF NOT US! WHO?
QUEEN MAKEDA 1/13/01
"Give 'em hell, Boyd!" Love your web-site; I always knew you'd be doing great things!"
Stan Battles March 11, 2001
"Read your submission on Mr. Graves. Thank you for such a much needed article. We need to know the truth in life. . . His fight for justice is paramount to the honest work that each of us must do for the creation of a foundation to base our humanity on. We must wake up and be about the business of living in truth. Keep me posted about the book and other information. I will forward this information to others."
Thank-you again. Ashe', Florence Rozier
"I am sure you will give Boyd my congratulations. I am sure he is thrilled and he deserves this and much more for all his valiant efforts for mankind. It does not matter that he is trying to save the black race. In doing so he helps us all. This is not a black or a gay disease it is designed for the decimation of mankind."
Shiela Schultz December 2000
"Dear Mr. Bales, Thank you for your letter. Thank you, also, for your efforts to help unravel the truth about HIV. I, too, have studied the subject matter for a number of years now. I have read "Emerging Viruses", as well as other books and articles on the subject of the artificial origen of the "virus". Mr. Graves is fortunte to have you for a colleague and champion. Best regards,"
Carl McCoy Nashua, NH
"THNKS"
ADISA
"I hear your passion and concern with this on-going "slaughter" and all I can suggest is that you continue in a good way getting your message across. Godspeed."
Spencer Rowe
"(President) Clinton has recently issued a presidential pardon for Dr. Robert Gallo of the Sloan Kettering Cancer Institue for any deeds done while in their employment. Gallo was the virologist working on monkey viruses. Dr. Peter Duesberg was working on chicken viruses. We both know where this research ended up."
Mike from Dallas, TX
"It is a forgone conclusion that the master plan is to not only eradicate the African population, but to also systematically throw the entire continent into chaos. This is done by creating, and in fact arming & inciting conflicts & genocide, impairing the ability to build an infrastructure, as well as overburdening governments with debt they cannot service let alone repay the principal. . . At all costs the system is to retard self determination & self dependence, while assisting in the corruption & temptation of the African leadership.
The end result is bondage & servitude, masquerading as foreign aid and loans. The goal is to control the vital natural resources of not only the African continent, but the world with their insatiable appetite. We must not be quiet o rlook the other way when evil is preying upon humanity, as the horrific days of nazi Germany."
Bob Shulman January 3, 2001
It is time to put all the information together and present it to the World Court. Then as a world mass making the right noise let's see what happens!
Ray Emery March 10, 2001
"I find this very intriguing and very believable. I wish there was something I could do to help get this information out to the public, especially in rural areas like where I live."
J. Jennings
"God's speed, and God Bless." mother of a sick dying gulfwar veteran
"Graves has an encyclopedic mind. He can pull numbers out of the air from reports he read 20 years ago. . ."
POZ Magazine
December 2000
FLOWCHART:
Editor: Steve Van Nattan-- Three Observations:
ONE- The notion of taking a lower form of a virus and pumping it up and morphing it into a higher form of virus is based on the ongoing notion among god haters that we must speed up and enhance out own evolution. The supreme irony is that these mad men are making a killer bio-organism as a tool to advance evolution. This would be like handing a gun to a pathological killer as a method of bringing tranquility to society.
TWO- Why do Presidents, Kings, Princes (as in Charles), and Parliamentarians of the White rave never die of AIDS? At first, this reality was simply a novel matter, but with the reports of the bisexuality of Prince Charles, the raging libido of Ted Kennedy, Bill Clinton, and Gary Condit, we wait in vain for retribution to set in via the AIDS virus. How do they escape the death? There is getting to be real evidence by incrimination that there is some medication of immune enhancer available to these elite. Otherwise, the majority of them would be dying by now.
THIRD- As a Bible believer, I see that the end of the age must come soon, or there will be no Africans, or Hamites left on the earth when Christ comes back to set up His Kingdom. I find it hard to believe that God would let the White Race animals destroy a whole race of people from the earth.
posted
^Thanks for the links and associated post; I'll probably comment on the points made therein, once I've thoroughly gone through them, including any potentially pending source brought to my attention in relation to the matter.
Speaking of the earlier 'Wikipedia' piece,...
quote:Originally posted by Supercar:
From your nearby wiki...
1959 The first known case of HIV in a human occurs in a person who died in the Congo, seemingly later confirmed as having HIV infection from his preserved blood samples (Zhu et al., 1998). However, according to the authors of the 1959 discovery, they never found, nor alleged to have found, HIV, or anything like a full virus. According to these authors, even “attempts to amplify HIV-1 fragments of >300 base pairs (bp) were unsuccessful, . . . However, after numerous attempts, four shorter sequences were obtained” that only represented small portions of two of the six genes of the complete AIDS virus. Citation: Zhu T, Korber BT, Nahmias AJ, Hooper E, Sharp PM and Ho DD. An African HIV-1 sequence from 1959 and implications for the origin of the epidemic. Nature 1998;391(Feb. 5):594-597.
Yeap, you guessed it; the DNA under question was degraded, which is why there was much trouble getting the researchers' 'expected' results from it.
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Djehuti the fact that viruses can or have jumped species doesNOT mean this is the case with AIDs.
The proof should be near the pudding, if the first case was an African individual, then, surely evidence should have been found since 1959. Are they still looking?
Supercar, was the first infected person Ancient?
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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Djehuti the fact that viruses can or have jumped species doesNOT mean this is the case with AIDs.
The proof should be near the pudding, if the first case was an African individual, then, surely evidence should have been found since 1959. Are they still looking?
The first confidently reported cases of "HIV" in humans has not been found amongst Africans, but rather, people in America and Europe, which is interesting if one is to make sense of the advocates of the "African origins of HIV". The sample taken from the man from the Congo region, was not proclaimed to be "HIV" infected. It was essentially 'hypothesized' to be something related to the virus, or perhaps having common origins, based on mere extrapolations from short gene motifs that didn't provide a complete picture, enough to derive an unquestionable conclusion. As you can read from the "Wikipedia" reference, even the reading of these motifs took a great amount of effort, and even then, little info was presumably gleaned from the tests; ask yourself if the results then, are not the least questionable?
quote: Supercar, was the first infected person Ancient?
Not in this case, as the person was deemed to have died ca. 1959. However, what is presumed to be "part" of the genes of a virus [not that of the man himself] in the man's blood sample, certainly appears to be degraded, given that it was hard to get a complete picture of the 'would be' signature motifs. The person's own DNA is likely to be useful for genealogical purposes, barring any potential contaminations [from handling the blood sample]. Indeed the so-called virus 'motifs' in the blood sample could be the result of such 'potential' contamination.
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quote:Originally posted by Supercar: Horus, I appreciate your ways of moderation, but Djehuti's name calling will not go unanswered. Should my responses to him be deleted, then surely the post which instigated that response, should equally be deleted. His post triggered the response it received, precisely because it was offending.
LOL If you recall, I never called you any names.I merely repeated what you called me before.
Anyway, getting back to the topic...
You keep asking how the virus was initially transmitted. I told you several times that the main hypothesis was through the bite of a monkey. You say it is hypothesis because we have no evidence and you're right we have no actual evidence because we aren't able to examine the very first person to contract HIV which from the blood sample of the man in Congo seemed to show that the very first transmission came from as early as the 1940s. Now, I doubt that patient zero for HIV is even still alive or that we would be able to recover his body for analysis. But now there is another more recent hypothesis for the first transmission-- consumption of monkey meat.
CHICAGO (CNN) -- HIV probably originated in the late 1940s or early 1950s, and showed up in people 10 to 20 years earlier than has previously been estimated, researchers said Tuesday.
Dr. David Ho and colleagues from the Aaron Diamond AIDS Research Center in New York told a conference they traced the very first case of HIV infection to a man living in what was then the Belgian Congo in 1959.
The scientists found HIV in a blood sample taken from the man, who was a member of the Bantu tribe. The HIV in the sample looks like an ancestor of several subtypes of HIV now found around the world, suggesting that HIV "evolved from a single introduction into the African population in a time frame not long before 1959," the researchers said.
Leading AIDS researchers said Ho's new study, which is detailed in the latest edition of the journal "Nature," is a significant advance in the understanding of the disease and could prove important in developing an AIDS vaccine.
Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said the new proof of HIV's earliest origins is important to scientists because it offers a much clearer picture of the evolution of the virus and a better way to predict its future evolution.
"The ancestral HIV-1... must have existed before 1959, probably only a few years before 1959," Toufu Zhu, who worked on the study, told the Fifth Conference on Retroviruses and Opportunistic Infections.
"The Big Bang seems to have occurred around, or just after, the Second World War," wrote Simon Wain-Hobson of the Pasteur Institute in Paris in a commentary in "Nature."
The 1959 victim, who lived in Leopoldville, now Kinshasa in the Democratic Republic of Congo, had first turned up at a clinic with symptoms resembling sickle cell anemia -- a hereditary blood disease that primarily affects Africans in which oddly-shaped red blood cells clump together, causing anemia, blood clotting and joint pain.
Doctors kept samples of the man's blood, and Ho's team analyzed it. Using well-established genetic dating methods, they determined that the virus could not have existed for many years before 1959.
Fauci said the research refutes various "conspiracy theories" that HIV is the by-product of Cold War germ warfare tests or poorly-conducted polio vaccine tests.
"This finding also refutes the suggestion that HIV-1 subtype B infection was responsible for AIDS-like syndromes beginning in the 1930s in various European populations," the researchers wrote in the report.
Scientists have yet to learn how HIV first infected humans. Many viruses come from animals, and HIV is believed to have come from monkeys -- but it is not clear how.
Another presentation at the conference on Tuesday gave a hint: Francois Simon and colleagues at the Bichat hospital in Paris and the Pasteur center in Cameroon found a strain of HIV that seemed to be halfway between the human and the ape versions of the virus.
Monkeys and chimpanzees get a disease known as Simian Immunodeficiency Syndrome, caused by a version of the HIV virus known as SIV. But chimps and monkeys infected with human HIV do not get AIDS in the same way as people, meaning the virus mutated at some point.
Simon's group analyzed the blood of a Cameroonian woman who died of AIDS in 1995. Her strain of the virus was unique and fell halfway between HIV and SIV genetically. It was identical to an odd strain taken from a chimpanzee.
The finding "strongly supports the hypothesis that HIV came from a simian virus," Simon told the conference.
However, little is known about the women, her family or history. It is not possible to say how she might have caught the virus from a chimpanzee.
"It's very difficult, but ... in Africa people eat monkeys," Simon said. Many scientists believe the virus spread to humans through infected ape or monkey meat.
^There you have it. More studies showing HIV originated from monkeys and that it first spread to humans either through a monkey bite or now more recently the consumption of monkey flesh. Unless you prefer sexual contact??
Perhaps you and RU2Religious question how FIV was first transmitted, and what to propose a government conspiracy to control the cat population (neutering isn't good enough(?)). LOL Or maybe a sexual union between monkey and cat?
[ 29. December 2006, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: Horus_Den_1 ]
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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You keep asking how the virus was initially transmitted.
Because you keep never answering it.
quote:Djehuti:
I told you several times that the main hypothesis was through the bite of a monkey.
...and I've repeatedly replied back, that you haven't provided evidence on this.
quote:Djehuti:
You say it is hypothesis because we have no evidence and you're right we have no actual evidence because we aren't able to examine the very first person to contract HIV which from the blood sample of the man in Congo seemed to show that the very first transmission came from as early as the 1940s.
You are not making any sense; first you proclaim to have 'no actual' evidence of this 'monkey bite', and then go onto talk of the blood sample from this 'man in Congo'. You have no evidence whatsoever that this man from "Congo" had HIV, and yet imply such.
quote:Djehuti:
Now, I doubt that patient zero for HIV is even still alive or that we would be able to recover his body for analysis.
Whatever you might call 'patient' zero, it is well known fact, that the earliest folks diagnosed with HIV weren't Africans.
quote:Djehuti:
But now there is another more recent hypothesis for the first transmission-- consumption of monkey meat.
Another 'theorey' with no substantiation, and had it not been for lack of your attentiveness, you would have known that the weak premises of this had been pointed out in this very thread, in one of the links provided earlier.
Essentially, you have no evidence whatsoever that HIV started amongst Africans, much less how it was transmitted from a monkey to humans. You just grab onto pieces of stuff in the internet without any sense of critical analysis or coherency, something which you'll soon discover as you continue your attempt to 'prove' that "HIV" originates amongst Africans...perhaps the hard way.
quote:Djehuti:
^There you have it.
I wish that I had "it", that is, the evidence for your bizarre claims.
quote:Djehuti:
More studies showing HIV originated from monkeys and that it first spread to humans either through a monkey bite or now more recently the consumption of monkey flesh. Unless you prefer sexual contact??
These studies don't show 'anything' short of questionable 'speculations', which you use as a lifeline for your shaky premises. This lifeline will soon be cut short.
quote:Djehuti:
Perhaps you and RU2Religious question how FIV was first transmitted and what to propose a government conspiracy to control the cat population (neutering isn't good enough(?)).
This is a tremendously stupid rationalization, unless you have a citation of mine to back it up.
quote:Djehuti:
LOL Or maybe a sexual union between monkey and cat?
Are you revealing your perverted fanstasy from your dreams last night, because I highly doubt you have a post you can cite herein, supporting its relevancy to the issues at hand?
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
Oustanding issues that Djehuti's long-winded but meatless posts fail to deliver on:
Proof that the first person to be confidently diagnosed with HIV, was African.
Repeatedly referring to the sample taken from the human corpse from the Congo region in 1959, when the study itself never proclaimed to have found HIV therein, much less an actual virus, to put it rather politely, raises questions about the functioning status of Djehuti's mentality.
Proof that the presumed predecessor of HIV made its way from a monkey into a human being, by way of biting.
Proof that the presumed predecessor of HIV made its way from a monkey into a human being, through "bushmeat", i.e. the eating of monkey [presumably the chimps who carry the precursor virus] , and yet only recently did HIV emerge in multiple places where eating chimps, or any monkey for that matter, has never been heard of.
Show how HIV became pandemic, and why it has been attributed to 'homo-sexuals' in America and Europe, who may never have seen Africa in their lifetime
Explain the "Big Bang" emergence of HIV in the 1970s, as put forth in the 1993 Myers et al. publication, whereby “the extraordinary synchrony in the 1970s of ten or more distinguishable epidemics" and "Clinical, serological and molecular retrospective studies have all failed to produce any evidence of AIDS or HIV prior to the 1970s.”
More questions expected to follow, as Djehuti attempts to come up with answers. In fact, I suspect that Djehuti will find out that his 'potential' yet-to-be delivered answers will actually raise more questions than settle down issues, reminding him that he is working from a very weak premises with regards to his proclamations.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
As you can see I haven't posted anything else on this topic because I'm waiting as well. Djehuti asked me to post my proof and I have done as he has asked me, but he has failed to provide proof of the examples given by Supercar last post.
I'm still waiting as well.
Thank you in advance Djehuti.
Peace!~
Posts: 951 | From: where rules end and freedom begins | Registered: Jun 2004
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What do you mean they have no evidence?! I just cited a source which said they found it in monkey scat. How it spread to humans was species jumping which is not to hard since as primates humans are closely related to monkeys. Exactly the method of how it transmitted to humans is presumed from a bite, either that or you want to get into the nasty theory of sex with a monkey.
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Djehuti, what happened to taking a Christmas break?
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And since when did only African Americans, let alone Africans suffer from HIV? Are you aware that the virus is problem in India, East Asia, and even Eastern Europe (yup, it is a problem for whites also)
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