posted
well get past it then and give me some data. Let us hear all about these black Greeks.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:The Hybrid Origin of the Mediterraneans By V. Giuffrida-Ruggeri Man Vol. 21 (Dec. 1921)
"Admitting that fundamentally Nordics and Mediterraneans are the same biotype, the differentiating characteristics mentioned above have evidently another origin, which can only be equatorial, either from ancient biotypes in the Mediterranean or from medieval intrusions. In fact, in the Mediterranean islands, and to a lesser degree in the peninsulas, the Arab domination must have introduced some more or less negroid contingent, since the negroid tide by way of the Sahara has never been absent from North Africa, and the Saracens came precisely from Africa to southern Europe along with Negro-Mediterranean hybrids. But the medival intrusion is only one of many which came to alter the physical type of the Southern Europeans."
"The actual Mediterranean biotype appears as if it is the result of very ancient crosses - we are confronted by a mixed dominant-recessive type.."
"Anthropology traces, and suggests, as the most likely progenitors, two biotypes: the proto-European Nordic (or another type akin to this, also of Asiatic parentage), and the pre-Mediterranean Ethiopic..."
Calling me someone else is nothing more that a diversion.
Likely that you were banned under the former alias, a.k.a "Horemheb". Like clothing, usernames can easily be changed and you can have a multiple of them, but characters die hard.
quote:Arrow99:
As far as debate is concerned you are not giving me any facts to debate.
You are right; you haven't 'debated' the correspondence of tropical African ancestry in Greeks with the spread of the Neolithic farming economy into the pre-farming stone age Europe, you've merely evaded the points.
Asking about 'exactly' how many individuals carried these lineages into Europe [and Greece of course] is merely a smokescreen, as these very same lineages correspond to the point of origin of this Neolithic farming economy. In other words, Arrow, there is a pattern in the distribution of the very same lineages, along the path of diffusion of the Neolithic economy.
quote:Arrow99:
Give me specifics about this so called culture and just how exactly they influenced the greeks.
Arrow, you seem to have this misguided idea that you need to be 'convinced'; no, you need to address and refute the points laid out. Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
first she said fundamentally Nordics and Meds. Further , she does not address the question I asked. Further, she talks about pre Med ethopians....those are not greeks. She also mentions changes that took place in medieval times and would not apply at all to our discussion. The more you post on this the deep the hole you dig. I'm still waiting to have you describe those black Greeks???? I know a guy that swears Big Foot is real and he at least has pictures.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Your map is cute rasol but it doesn't answer the question we need answered. I want to hear the story of these black Greeks, please.
Supercar, this can't be that hard. If these black greeks existed then tell me about them.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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Supercar, this can't be that hard. If these black greeks existed then tell me about them.
True Arrow, it can't possibly be harder for you to address what has specifically been said than what hasn't, could it? I've already told you what needs to be said about the arrival of tropical African ancestry into Europe along with the Neolithic farming economy; now seek to address it.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
Supercar, Yopu did not tell me anything specific. You gave me a broad view that could mean most anything and then tried to pass it off as data. You guys all seem to be into that: dodge the question with broad general statements and then accuse the other person of not addressing your question. I want SPECIFIC on these 'particular' people you are trying to connect with Greece. I want to know where they lived, how many there were, what specific contributions they made in terms of culture. I want to know what happened to them and when it happened. When you can give me all that we'll have something to talk about.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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Indo-European speakers were present in Greece by the Bronze Age but what about before then?
All early civilizations are the product of the New Stone Age or as some have called it the Neolithic "Revolution".
You have been shown that Greeks carry paternal lineage E3b as well as Sickle-cell both of which derive from the Neolithic time period.
We also have evidence in the form of physical anthropology:
Larry Angel (1972) -- one can identify Negroid traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters.(McCown, 1939) And in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers, probably from Nubia via the predecesors of the Badarians and Tasians...
Larry Angel (1972) -- one can identify Negroid traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters.(McCown, 1939) And in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers, probably from Nubia via the predecesors of the Badarians and Tasians...
Damn, as far east as Macedonia??? I wonder what prompted such a large sale migration out of Africa into the Near East....
Posts: 447 | From: Somewhere son... | Registered: Sep 2006
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Larry Angel (1972) -- one can identify Negroid traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters.(McCown, 1939) And in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers, probably from Nubia via the predecesors of the Badarians and Tasians...
Damn, as far east as Macedonia??? I wonder what prompted such a large sale migration out of Africa into the Near East....
The Neolithic is loosely conceived as the transition between hunter-gatherer and sendantary life - including agriculture and animal domestication.
This process is critical to understanding population expansions - this is the root *cause* of the great human population explosion.
Prior to this - all humans lived like the modern hunter gather peoples today ranging from central and southern Africa to North and South America and Australia.
This is how Europeans lived before the 'neolithic'.
The neolithic process begins in Africa and Asia.
It spread to Europe - with African and Asian people, African and Asian genetic lineages, animals, technologies and foodstuffs.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
rasol, you can find that definition in any 7th grade world history book, whats the point. You say "it" spread, be specific. Truth is you are never specific. The piece you posted above tells us nothing. The reason you cannot be more specific is because there is no information out there to make the point. We know that Greeks were, in the words of the research you posted, "fundamentally Nordic and European." It was those "fundamentally Nordic and Europeans people in Greece who lit the spark that changed the world. Some nibian, or SEMI NUBIAN tribesman wandering through 10,000 to 20,000 years before had nothing to do with it. You simply have no valid case.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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Larry Angel (1972) -- one can identify Negroid traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters.(McCown, 1939) And in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers, probably from Nubia via the predecesors of the Badarians and Tasians...
Damn, as far east as Macedonia??? I wonder what prompted such a large sale migration out of Africa into the Near East....
^ could it have been due to the climatic change in the Saraha? We have to remember that it was once inhabitable. This could be the reason for such an exodus.
Peace!~
Posts: 951 | From: where rules end and freedom begins | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
To deny the African origin of Grecian civilization the Eurocentrists attack Martin Bernal's book: Black Athena. This book has nothing to do with Afrocentrism. In the two volumes published thus far, Bernal maintains that Semites from Phoenicia and the Semitic Hyksos speaking rulers of Egypt, took civilization to Greece, not Black Africans.
J.A. Rogers in Sex and Race, Parker, Diop and DuBois on the other hand, are Afrocentric scholars. These scholars have reviewed the writings of the classical authors, the anthropological, linguistic and historical evidence to reach the conclusion that the ancient Greeks were blacks and that the European Greeks learned the liberal arts and sciences from their "black ancestors" who first settled Greece and the Egyptians.
According to the Olympian Creation Myth the earliest groups to appear on earth were the Libyco-Thracians .The Libyans were Proto-Saharans, as were the original Thracians. Some Thracians were descendants of the Kushite and Egyptian troops established at Trace, by Sesostris (Thutmose III or Ramses II), when he conquered Asia and Europe.(Diop 1991; Winters 1983a,1984b,1985a)
Many of the so-called Greek myths are in reality historical texts which show the ancient lifestyle of the pre-Aryans in Greece and the transition from Pelasgian matriarchy to Greek-Aryan patriarchy. The term Amazon was often used by the Aryans to denote matriarchal societies living on the Black Sea. The battle between Thesus and the Amazons, led by Queen Melanippe, records the conflicts between the ancient Aryan-Greeks and the Libyans settled around the Black Sea.
Dr. Lefkowitz (1992) and Snowden (1992,1976) perpetuate the myth that the only blacks in ancient Europe were slaves or mercenaries. This is false the Greek historical works make it clear that many ancient settlers of the Aegean came from Africa , especially the Garamantes and Pelasgians. G. W. Parker wrote that: "I need not go into details concerning the ethnical relations of the Romans, since they, too are Mediterranean and are closely related to the same African confederation of races ...[situated in Greece]. Aeneas, their mythical founder of Troy. The Aenead, like the Illiad, and Odyssey and all other of the world's great epics, is the poetic story dealing with African people". The heroes of these tales used long shields, the characteristic shields of the Indo-European speaking Greeks were round.
The Eurocentrists attempt to prove there was "considerable cultural and linguistic continuity from the twelfth century to the eight century BC" ,in the Aegean . Yet there is no way it can be proven that Indo-European Greeks have always been in Greece. This view on the continuity between the Linear B Greeks and later Greeks held by Lefkowitz is disputed by Hopper who noted that " after all, so much which characterizes Minoan Crete seems wholly alien to later Greece, despite the efforts of scholars to detect 'continuity' " .
Given the wealth of Afrocentric literature it would seem logical that the Eurocentric "resisters" review these works, and point out the weaknesses within these text to prove that Afrocen- trism is a "myth" (Lefkowitz 1992). But, instead of doing just this, the "resisters" simply mention text written by Afrocentric scholars and then attack Black Athena, as if Afrocentrism is based solely on this text.
Dr. Molefi Kete Asante has observed that: " The aim is to open [Afrocentric] fields of inquiry and to expand human dialogue around questions of social, economic, historical and cultural concern. Everything must be run through the sieve of doubt until one hits the bedrock of truth. Our methods, based on the idea of African centeredness, are meant to establish a clear pattern of discourse that may be followed by others". Based on this definition Black Athena, is not an Afrocentric work. This book is meant to imply that the Hyksos or Semitic speaking west Asians developed civilization in Greece not the blacks. This book because of its lack of African centeredness fails the test of an Afrocentric work..
Black Athena, is not the Afrocentric Bible on Black Egypt. We doubt that Cheikh Anta Diop would even agree with most of the thesis of this book. Trigger observed that:
"Although he [Bernal] has acquired an enthusiastic following among
exponents of negritude and occasionally describes some of the Egyptian
Pharaohs as "black" or "Nubian", he aligns himself not with Anta Diop but with more moderate "Negro intellectuals"...who...do see Egypt as essentially African" .
Bernal (1987,1991) believes that the Greeks resulted from a mixture of European and (Semitic speaking) Mediterranean people.
In volume 2 of Black Athena , Bernal outlines his thesis that the "Egyptians" founded Greek civilization. But these "Egyptians" are not blacks, they are Semitic speakers. Bernal (1991) makes it clear that he believes that the civilization of the Aegean was founded by Semitic speaking Phoenicians, and the Semitic speaking Hyksos Dynasty of Egypt.
Bernal (1991) sees Hyksos invaders as Hurrian, Semitic, Indo-Iranian speakers. As a result he believes that the Danaos and Kadmeans or Egyptian founders of Thebes in Greece, were the Hyksos. (Bernal 1991, p.495) In general, Bernal (1991) believes that when the Hyksos were driven from Egypt, they settled in the Aegean and developed civilization.
Bernal's view of the Hyksos as the founders of Grecian civilization has nothing to do with the work of Afrocentric scholars. The problem with Bernal (1991) is that he believes that the "Pre-Hellenes" or Pelasgian people were Indo-European speakers. This view is not held by Afrocentric scholars who recognize that the founders of Athens and Attica were blacks. Diop (1974,1991) and Clyde Ahmad Winters (1983b) make it clear that Blacks came to Greece in prehistoric times and remarried in Greece in significant numbers until classical times. Therefore the apparent errors in Bernal's Black Athena, should not be seen as proving that Afrocentric scholars are wrong. These errors only prove that Bernal (1991) has failed to prove that the Hyksos founded civilization in the Aegean.
Afrocentric scholars are accused of using old and outdated sources. This is true of some Afrocentric scholars who have written books based on secondary sources. Yet, those Afrocentric scholars such as DuBois, Diop (1974,1991), J.A. Rogers, Parker (1917,1918), Winters (1983b,1985b,1989a,1989b) use up-to-date sources to prove historical facts about the African past, even before Diop used primary sources to illuminate the African past. These Afrocentric ,scholars of African and African-American origin because of their unique character as a black people unaware of their specific original African home have not been blinded by ethnocentrism to look for the history of blacks in one part of Africa and the world. These scholars have sought to illuminate the African past throughout the world.
For example, Parker (1917,1918) used anthropological, archaeological, historical and classical sources to prove that blacks once lived in the Aegean. Parker (1917,1918) used the Greek classics to prove that the Pelasgians were of African origin. He also discussed the origin stories about the Pelasgic founders of selected Grecian cities and proved that these men were blacks and not Indo-Europeans. Parker (1917, pp.341-42) also observed that "the great Grecian epics are epics of an African people and Helen, the cause of the Trojan war, must henceforth be conceived as a beautiful brown skin girl" . These Africans sailed to the Greece from North Africa.
Early boat used by the ancient Pelasgians in Greece
Using archaeological evidence and the classical literature C.A. Winters (1983b) explained how the African/Black founders of Grecian civilization originally came from the ancient Sahara. Winters(1983b) makes it clear that these Blacks came to the Aegean in two waves 1) the Garamantes a Malinke speaking people that now live along the Niger river, but formerly lived in the Fezzan region of Libya; and 2) the Egyptians, Phoenicians and East Africans who were recorded in Greece's history as the Pelasgians. The Pelasgian civilization has been discussed in detail by Parker (1917,1918).
The Pelasgians founded many cities. The Pelasgian founding of Athens is noted by Plutarch in Theseus 12, and Ovid in Metamorphosis vii, 402 ff. According to Herodotus vii.91, the Pelasgians also founded Thebes. Many of these Athenians may have introduced the Geometric style to Greece during the so-called Dark Ages (1200- 600 BC).
This is fine Geometric Style piece dating to the "Dark Age" period of Greece note
the broad shoulders depicted on this piece of art.
Winters (1983b) makes it clear that the Garamantes founded the Greek cities of Thrace, Minoan Crete and Attica. The Garamantes were also called Carians by the Indo-European Greeks.
The Garamantes or Carians originally lived in the Fezzan. These Garamante were described by the Latin classical writers as black or dark skinned: perusti (Lucan 4.679), furvi (Arnoloius, Adversus Nationes , 6.5) and nigri (Anthologia Latina, 155,no.183).
As a result of the research of Parker (1917,1918) and Winters (1983b), when Lefkowitz (1992) argues that Socrates could not have been black because he was an Athenian citizen. Because it is her opinion that the Athenians were not of African origin eventhough Greek traditions make it clear that Pelasgians which were not Indo-European speakers founded this city. As a result, she fails to prove Socrates' racial heritage because the Greeks made it clear that the founders of Athens were Pelasgians or Blacks. Moreover, the earliest art from Athens known as the Geometric style depict African or Black
people.
On this Athenean funeral vase (c. 750 BC) the dead and
Those who weep for him in this Geometric Style pottery have Negroid features
Lefkowitz noted that "Thus , if Socrates and his parents had dark skin and other African racial features, some of his contemporaries would have been likely to mention it...Unless, of course, all the rest of the Athenians also had African origins; but then why are they not depicted as Africans in the art? " This question is easily answered. There are numerous Africans depicted in Greek art, but rather than admit that some of these blacks were descendants of the Pelasgian and Garamante groups they are all referred too as Ethiopian slaves or mercenaries (Snowden 1976).
The work of Diop (1974,1991), Parker (1917,1918) and Winters (1983b) make it clear that the Afrocentric discussion of the African influence in the Aegean is not based solely on the work of Bernal (1987,1991) as the "resisters" would have us believe. Use of Bernal (1991) as a method to dispute the findings of the Afrocentrists is groundless because his work fails to acknowledge the African origin of the Pelasgians.
BLACKS IN THE AEGEAN
The earliest inhabitants of Greece and the Aegean Islands were Blacks from ancient Libya, Palestine, and Asia Minor. These Blacks founded Athens, Thebes Thera and Attica. They occupied much of the mainland and all the Aegean Islands. These Blacks are frequently depicted in the art associated with the so-called Dark Ages (1200-600 BC). There are also fine frescos from Thera (Sanorin) Island which illustrate one of the Agean cities occupied by these Blacks during the 16th and 15th centuries BC.
This is one of the Thera Frescos. Note the busy atmosphere
Associated with the Pelasgian cities during the 16th Century BC
Although these people of the Heroic age came from diverse origins, the Aryan-Greeks called them Pelasgians. According to the Greeks, the first man was Pelasgus--ancestor of the Pelasgians. The Pelasgians were a combination of different Black tribes called Achaeans, Cadmeans, Leleges, Carians or Garamantes.
The term Pelasgian was applied to all these pre-Hellenic inhabitants of Greece. R.J. Hopper, in The Early Greeks, noted that "indeed the classical Greeks believed in the separate existence of diverse ethnic elements side by side, and thought particularly of the Pelasgians in this connection".
According to tradition, the Pelasgians inhabited Arcadia and many Aegean Islands. These Blacks took their own writing to Greece which was later used by the Aryan-Greeks. According to Herodotus quadrigas or four-horse chariots were introduced to Greeks by the Libyans .
The Aryan-Greeks adopted the language of the Pelasgians and Egyptians. The linguistic evidence shows that there was a differentiation of Greece into East Greek and West Greek. The Black Greeks spoke East Greek (Achaioi or Achaean). West Greek was spoken by the Dorian or Aryan Greeks. The earliest Aryan tribe called Ionians spoke a dialect of East Greek called Aeolic.
Many classical scholars teach the world that the Greek language is entirely Indo-European. This view of Greek is wrong.
Dr. Anna Morpurgo Davies, has made it clear that "less than 40% of the words which have an Indo-European etymology". According to Dr. Davies, 52.2 % of the Greek terms in Chantraine's Dictionnaire Etymologique de la langue Grecque (1968) have an unknown etymology. The mixed nature of the Greek language results from the early settlement of the Aegean by Blacks from Africa.
Some of these words are of African origin. Robert K.G. Temple, in The Sirius Mystery, shows that many of the most common words of the Greek vocabulary are of Egyptian origin. Diop (1991) has also discussed the Egyptian origin for many Greek terms.
GARAMANTES
Some of the first African colonists to arrive in Greece came from Crete. These Cretans were called Garamantes. After the goddess Ker or Car, these people also came to be also known as the Carians. The Carians spoke a Mande languages.
A Pelasgian boat from Thera
These people usually sailed to the Islands in Aegean and the surrounding coast were they established prosperous trading communities.
There is frequent mention of the Garamantes of the Fezzan, in Classical literature of Greece and Rome. The Garamantes were recognized as a Black tribe. They were known to the Greeks and Romans as dark skinned. In Ptolemy (I.8.5.,p.31) a Garamante slave was described as having a body the color of pitch or wholly black.
Graves (1980) and Leo Frobenius linked the Garamante to the ancient empire of Ghana (c.300 BC to A.D. 1100). Graves (1980) claims that the term Garamante is the Greek plural for Garama or Garamas. He said that the present Jarama or Jarma are the descendants of the Garamante; and that the Jarama live near the Niger river.
The Olympian creation myth, as recorded by Pindar in Fragment , and Apollonius Rhodius, makes it clear that the Garamantes early colonized Greece. Their descendants were called Carians. The Carians practiced apiculture. As in Africa the Carians practiced matrilineal descent. According to Herodotus , even up until his time the Carians took the name of their mother.
Many of the Greek myths are historical text which discuss the transition of Greece from an matriarchal society to a patriarchal Aryan society. The term Amazon was often used by the Aryans to denote matriarchal societies living on the Black Sea. The battle between Thesus and the Amazons, led by Queen Melanippe, records the conflicts between the ancient Aryan-Greeks and the Libyco-Nubians settled around the Black Sea.
The classical Carians and Egyptians were very close. Having originated in the Fertile African Crescent they had similar gods and cultural traditions dating back to the Proto-Saharan period.
The Garamantes founded Attica, where they worked the mines at Laureium. Demeter, the goddess of agriculture and fruitfulness, came from the Fezzan (Libya) by way of Crete. It was Demeter who took poppy seeds and figs to Europe.
Apollonius Rhodius (.iv.1310) tells us that the goddess Athene was born beside Lake Triton in Libya. The goddess Athene, was called Neith by the Egyptians and Nia by the Cretans in Linear A writing. This shows that the Garamantes took this god to Europe in addition to Demeter and Amon (=Ammon ,Amma).
By 3000 BC, the Garamantes has spread their influence to Thrace and early Hellenic Greece. Hesiod, who was a Kadmean (i.e., of Egyptian descent), in Works and Days , said that before the Hellenic invasion the Grecian people lived in peace and tranquility and had matriarchal societies. The name Europe comes from Aerope, the daughter of King Catreus, a Cretan. Thucydides observed that:
"The first person known to us by tradition as having
established a navy is Minos. He made himself master
of what is now called the Hellenic sea, and ruled over
the Cyclades into most of which he sent the first colo-
nies, expelling the Carians and appointing his own sons
as governors; and thus did his best to put down piracy
in these waters, a necessary step to secure the revenues
for his own use".
Thus we find that many Cretans also settled much of mainland southern Europe.
THE PELASGIANS
The Greeks often called the first inhabitants of Greece Pelasgians. The Greek writers claimed that Pelasgus, the great ancestor of the Pelasgians was the first man. The Pelasgians were a combination of diverse Black tribes which included the Achaeans , Kadmeans, and Leleges. The Garamantes were also often called Pelasgians by some classical writers. Strabo said "that the Pelasgi, as indeed the most ancient nation, were diffused through all Greece, and especially among the Aeolians".
The city of Argo was founded by Phoroneus, the father of Pelasgus, Iasus and Agenor. It was these folks who divided the Peloponnese between them.
Herodotus referred to the Pelasgians as "venerable ancestors". He said that the first Athenians "they were Pelasgi, the later possessing the country now designed Hellas". The Pelasgian founding of Athens is also noted by Plutarch in Theseus 12, and Ovid in Metamorphosis vii.402ff. According to Herodotus vii.91, the Pelasgians also founded Thebes in Europe. Pausanias, noted that "The Arcadians make mention of Pelasgus as the first person who existed in their country. From this king the whole region took the name Pilasgia". Hopper noted that the Pelasgians founded Attica.
The Black immigrants from Canaan were also settled in the Aegean at Argolis. They called themselves the "Sons of Abas". Many of the Melampodes later took part of Argolis away from the Canaanites.
The earliest Greek alphabet was made by the Pelasgians, it was lost and later reintroduced by Kadmus to Boeotia. Another Pelasgian, Evander of Arcadia introduced writing to the Italians. This script was used to make the first fifteen characters of the Latin script according to Pliny and Plutarch.
Pelasgians from Thera
Pliny says that one of the Aegean scripts was created by an Egyptian named Menos. An Egyptian creation of one of the early Greek alphabets is not out of the question because the early Predynastic Egyptians used the Proto-Saharan script as did the founders of the 12th Dynasty. Moreover, the Tiles of Rameses II, published by F. Hitching, in The Mysterious World, are analogous to the early Greek characters.
EGYPTIANS
The Egyptians established many colonies in ancient Europe. The Egyptians called themselves Melampodes or "Blackfeet". The Egyptians were also called Danaans in Greek history. According to Hyainus in Fabula, and Apollonius Rhodius when the Danaans came to Greece they were a combination of diverse African tribes.
When the Danaans came to Greece they took away part of Argolis from the Canaanites. The Danaans took the Mysteries of Themoporia and the oracle of Dodona to Greece. This view is supported by the discovery of an inscribed stone in the Peloponnese that had Egyptian writing on it dating to the Vth Dynasty of Egypt. Greek traditions speak of Egyptian colonies founded by Cecrops who settled Atica, Danaus the brother of Aegyptus was the founder of Argolis. Danaus is alleged to have taught the Greeks agriculture and metallurgy.
MYCENEANS
The ancient Myceneans were Blacks. These ancient people came from Crete, and the Western Sahara. Alain Anselin has shown how many of these Myceneans spoke Dravidian languages especially the Termils of Asia Minor.
The cities of Troy, Mycenae, Tiryns, Thebes and Orochomenos were founded by the Eteocretans or "Real Minoans", as opposed to the later Greco-Cretans. These Eteocretans spoke a Manding language.
Ring made of gold depicting a Stag hunt (c. 1500BC)
(Note the Afro hairstyle worn by the Mycenaeans)
Mycenean art gives ample evidence of the rich and varied culture shared by the Africans of Mycenae. Africans are depicted in hunting and war motifs on artifacts recovered from the Shaft Graves at Mycenae.
The best known African artifacts from Mycenae include the "Stag Hunt", "Lion and Spearman Hunt" and the "Siege Scene" depicted on the Silver Rhyton Cup. All of these artifacts date to 1500 BC
Achaeans
By 1200 BC, much of the Mycenae civilization was under the control the Achaeans. The Achaeans later founded other city-states in Greece. After conquering the Mycenaeans, the Achaeans formed the Greek states of Peloponnesus. Their major cities: Mycenae and Tiryns in Argolis, and Pylos Messenia were originally founded by other Pelasgian groups.
Here is a Geometric Style (or Achaean) scene of an
Overturned boat (c. 850 BC) for Athens
Between 1200-800 BC, the Achaeans began to take control of the Greek mainland , the southern part of the Balkan Peninsula, Crete and numerous islands in the Aegean Sea. The Achaeans conquered the Nubian, Egyptian and Phoenician armies at Troy. Some of the troops fighting with the Achaeans were Indo-European speaking people.
ORIGIN OF THE INDO-EUROPEANS
There is disagreement over where the Europeans originated and when they spread across Europe. Dr. M. Gimbutas maintains that Europeans had their origin in the Pontic steppe country on the north coast of the Black Sea and began to expand into Europe as Kurgan nomads after 4000 BC In 1987, Dr. C. Renfrew hypothesized that the Indo-Europeans lived in eastern Anatolia and spread into Europe around 7000 years ago with the spread of agriculture. Both of these views have little support based upon the ancestral culture terms used by the Proto-Indo-European which are predominately of non Indo-European (I-E) origin. After a comparison of the linguistic, agricultural and genetic evidence researchers have found little support for both of these theories. Sokal et al, noted that: "If the IEs originated in situ by local differentiation only, there should be no significant partial correlation , since geography should fully explain the observed genetic and linguistic distances. This was not the case. If the genetics-language correlation were entirely due to the spread of populations accompanying the origin of
agriculture, then the origin-of-agriculture model should suffice, or at least there should be some effect due to origin of agriculture. But we saw that origin-of-agriculture distances (OOA) cannot reduce the partial correlations remaining after geography has been held constant."
The genetic evidence supporting the absence of an Indo-European origin in the Anatolian region is supported by the historical and archaeological evidence. The north and east of Anatolia was inhabited by non-Indo-European speakers. It appears that Indo-Europeans did not enter Anatolia until sometime between 2000 -1800 BC At this time we note the appearance of Indo-European (Hittite) names in the literary records of the Old Kingdom of Hatti. And at least as late as 1900 BC Anatolia was basically still Hattian.
The usual method of Indo-European and Chinese invasion was two-fold. First, they settles in a country in small groups and were partly assimilated. Over a period of time their numbers increased. Once they reach a numerical majority they joined forces with other Indo-European speaking groups to militarily overthrow the original inhabitants in a specific area and take political power. Since these communities occupied by the blacks often saw themselves as residents of a city-state, they would ignored the defeat of their neighbors. This typified their second form of invasion of the countries formerly ruled by the Proto-Saharans/Kushites/Blacks.
Blacks have failed even today to recognize that even though whites are highly nationalistic and engaged in numerous fratricidal wars, they will unify temporarily to defeat non-European people. As a result in case where the Blacks have been politically organized into states or Empires, rather than isolated city-states, the large political units have lasted for hundreds of years as typified by ancient Egypt, Axum, Mali and ancient Ghana.
D'iakonov on the other hand, believes that the Indo-Europeans (I-E) homeland was the Balkan-Carpathian region. He has shown that the culture terms of the I-E group indicate that they made their way across forest-steppe and deciduous forest zones to settle other parts of the world. This view is highly probable.
The view that these people were farmers seem unlikely, since the ideal farming areas in Europe were already settled by the Anu and people from the Fertile African Crescent as discussed in this unit. Instead of being farmers the I-E people were originally nomads.
The steppes could not have been the homeland of the Indo-Europeans because it was heavily occupied by the Proto-Saharan people until after 1300 B.C.In support of an early presence of Indo-European speakers on the steppes many scholars maintain that the Andronovo cultures and wheeled vehicles are markers of Indo-European "High" culture.
But this theory has been proven to be unsupportable by the archeological and linguistic data. The civilizations and economy that characterized "Old Europe" are foreign to the Indo-European culture portrayed in the Indo-Aryan literature.
Many scholars use the chariot and horsemanship as an ethnic marker for the Indo-Europeans. But it can not be proven that the horse drawn chariot was an exclusive Indo-European marker. The wheeled vehicles were used in Mesopotamia and the Indus Valley before the 3rd millennium. The presence of pre-Dynasty and early Dynasty wheeled toy animals from Egypt and elsewhere support the view that the wheel was a well known technology to the Kushites before the expansion of the Indo Europeans.
This view is further supported by the fact that the IE roots for "wheel" number four. Use of a number to signify the "wheel" illustrates that this technological innovation must have come from elsewhere and was later adopted by the Proto-Indo-Europeans after there dispersal.
The horse can not be a marker for the Indo-European dispersal either. It would appear that in the steppes, the horse was not intensively used until the iron age. V.M. Masson believes that horse domestication and riding developed in the 1st millennium BC, on the steppes.
The early I-E were Kurgan nomadic warriors. Kurgan is a name used by archaeologist for the early Europeans.The term I-E does not refer to a racial type, because many of the ancient I-E speakers may have been black , given the fact that among the depictions of the People of the Sea on Egyptian monuments their are African people. But today the only I-E people we have are Caucasian.
Evolving in the Caucasus mountains, the Kurgan folk were pastoralist. They herded cattle, pigs and sheep.
The Kurgans were a very destructive people. They destroyed vast regions of forest across Europe. By the Fourth millennium BC, wide tracts of forests were gone in Europe. Upon their encounter with civilized Africoid communities, the latter were enslaved while the Kurgans adopted their culture. The Kurgan warriors used these slaves to grow grain.
The Indo-Europeans remained an insignificant group until they learned the art of metal working from the Hittites of Asia Minor. This along with natural disasters that took place around the world after 1600 BC, helped the Kurgans to infiltrate civilized areas in the Aegean and Indus Valley.
The Kurgan people are also known as the Battle Axe/ Corded Ware Folk. By the Third millennium BC, the Kurgan were breeding horses and organized themselves into militarized chiefdoms. The symbol of the warrior class was the horned helmet common to the Sea Folk and later Vikings. Their common weapon was the double axe.
The Kurgan folk in small numbers slowly migrated into the centers of civilization, first in northern Mesopotamia, then India. By 3500 BC, the Kurgans were invading the Caucasus region. Beginning in 3700 B.C., Old European settlements had walls built around them to keep out the Kurgan warriors.
These early I-E people practiced human sacrifice. At the death of a man his wife was often killed and buried with him.
The Kurgan people mixed with the indigenous Africoid people. Some of them were made slaves by the warrior elites. If black communities were more powerful than the Kurgans, they formed an alliance between themselves and conquered weaker groups. Once the Kurgan tribe became stronger it would knock off its former ally.
The People of the Sea began to infiltrate the Aegean area after 1200 BC. These people usually wore horn helmets and used round shields
Pictures of these nomadic warriors are depicted in courtyard of Medinet Habu, in Egypt. These white Japhetic Philistine folk were relocated in Palestine, where two hundred years later they destroyed Sidon and Troy. This Philistine Kurgan ethnic group is called Phrs in Egyptian documents.
Another group of Kurgan tribes took Crete. From bases in Crete, they invaded North Africa west of Egypt. These Kurgan tribesmen were called Rebou, by the Egyptians. This group formed the white Libyan population which occupied much of the Delta region of Egypt, before the founding of Carthage by the Phoenicians.
By 1300 BC, the Dorian tribes invaded Greece and defeated the Achaeans. The Dorian conquest of Mycenae led to Crete becoming a major center of Achaean civilization. The Dorians learned the art of writing from the Phoenicians.
Among the early I-E social relations were patriarchal. The hereditary warrior class controlled the best lands and large slave populations made up mainly of the native Blacks and poor Indo-European population. The landless people served as serfs for the ruling class made up of warriors.
Each Indo-European ethnic group was led by a Basileus. He was military commander, judge and high priest.
In summary the myths , archaeological and historical evidence all indicate that Europe was not the homeland of the White race. It would appear from the evidence that the ancient Greeks were Blacks. Moreover, it is clear that these blacks taught the Europeans civilization and government and that these symbols of government and civilization can not be claimed solely as the property of Europeans.
The historical, archaeological and linguistic evidence proves that contemporary ancient history text must be re-written to reflect that the blacks in Europe were not just slaves, but founders of Grecian civilization.. These new history text must, for the first time reflect of the African role in history so that black children and white children will know the truth about history, and not just false hoods that deny the existence of a native Grecian African role in the rise of ancient Greco-Roman civilization.
These blacks in Greece just like African-Americans today built the culture and civilization of ancient Greece. But their efforts, unfairly have been ignored and over looked by scholars who knew the truth, but hid this truth to validate White World Supremacy.
Posts: 28 | From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
it seems both of you are evading eachother...you two should answer each others question...by simply restating them for clarity and answer them...its senseless to through around an arguement...
Posts: 40 | From: Chicago | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
Obviously, however many were in the area certanily did not stay or were driven out by new invaders. Truth is , we do not know much at all. Thomas Cahill: "The origin of the Greeks is a mystery. Who the Greeks were to begin with and where they came from are matters obscured by the thick mists that envelop our understanding of prehistoric Europe."
More Cahill: " Of the indigenous farming folk they encountered we know even less."
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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tk101...what am I evading? I have asked who these people were and I get these broad brush articles about Africans in Europe 20,000 years ago. I'm simply asking for SPECIFIC info and they cannot provide it because it does not exist.
As for comments on Bernal's book in the post above. Greek scholars laugh at that garbage. It has no credibility and should be used for bathroom tissue. If it were not for the Afrocentric community that book would be on the scap heap of worthless junk. With most people it already is. It reminds me of the book a few years ago crediting all the ancient civilizations to space aliens, same kind of stuff.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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The Prof. is back, more ferocious than in recent times, but just as ignant...
... and I don't think I need to specify how so for anyone who reads through...
... Anyway, big ups to rasol.
rasol, you have a way with words, GREAT points about what would be an equivalent to eurocentrism, and nice metaphor about this true negro business - and the futility of using the term to get to the truth.
As for the Prof.,
Happy holidays man!
Professor is always good at bringing joy, often when he doesn't mean to. Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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Arrow99, tell me what is it about the English language, that you find this not 'specific' enough:
'Recent' tropical African ancestry arrived in Europe during the early to mid-early Holocene demic diffusion of Neolithic farming economy into pre-farming stone age southwest Europe and northwestern Europe respectively..
What part don't you understand about the above; the 'tropical African ancestry' or the "demic diffusion" of the "Neolithic farming economy"?
quote:Arrow: You gave me a broad view that could mean most anything and then tried to pass it off as data.
It is called data in perspective. Do you disagree with it? If so, tell us when 'independent' farming invention occurred in Europe, without ties to the Neolithic from the Levant? The burden of proof rests squarely on you, against the nearly unanimous viewpoint on the demic diffusion of Neolithic farming economy from the "Near East" into Europe; in doing so, give us the specific dates, and the details of objective 'substance' that would have led you to come to this peculiar conclusion.
quote:Arrow99:
You guys all seem to be into that: dodge the question with broad general statements and then accuse the other person of not addressing your question.
Arrow, there is a host of questions you have yet to address, while babbling incoherently about specifics, as though English isn't your first tongue. Look around this thread, and you'll instantly realize that the character you are describing above, is but yourself.
quote:Arrow99:
I want SPECIFIC on these 'particular' people you are trying to connect with Greece.
You consider Greece part of Europe, no? If so, do you think Greece should be exempt from the demic diffusion of "Neolithic farming economy", when they seem to be one of the best examples to have retained the genetic legacy of this diffusion?
quote:Arrow99:
I want to know where they lived, how many there were, what specific contributions they made in terms of culture.
They moved from the "Near East" into first Southern Europe, and then population expansions therein spread the Neolithic farming economy into northern parts of Europe. This is a crucial cultural contribution of the "Neolithic farming' immigrants to the then European wandering hunter-gatherers.
quote:Arrow99:
I want to know what happened to them and when it happened. When you can give me all that we'll have something to talk about.
They miscegenated with the locals, mainly European females, and hence, their offsprings automatically integrated into the populations they found in Europe. This is what happened to them, and their genetic legacy is here to prove this. Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
The part about getting together with European feamales in mere speculation on your part Super car. You do not have a shred of evidence to back up that claim. You say "they moved," again, who is they? here is what we can agree on. We can agree that Africans or some poeple of an African mixture were in the area during neolithic times. You are aware that most classical scholars believe that African genes were injected into Greece by a small number of people, possibly even slaves over the years. I will not argue that point because like you, I do not know either. Their genetic legacy does not prove your case. Even rasol's own posted research states that the Greeks are "fundamentally Nordic and Europeans." That means NOT fundamentally african.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:You are aware that most classical scholars believe that African genes were injected into Greece by a small number of people, possibly even slaves over the years.
This demonstrates all your old tactics of pretending to be stupid Hore. Only someone dumber can be distracted by your irrelevant rantings.
Classical scholars are not Geneticists and what ever they have to say (I doubt you can actually back up this claim) about the european population during the neolithic is also irrelevant.
Arrow99 wrote:
quote:The argument that says FEWER rather than more seems more logical because though many Greeks have the Gene they simply are not African. I mean frickin Eric the Red could have a black gene 10,000 years in his past. Another factor is that this group of people , however many there were, ceased to exist after the Indo European invasion.
Wishful thinking my friend. There was no disjuncture. Indo-Europeans did not replace the Afro-Asian farming population. Greeks ARE an amalgamation of the incoming Indo-Europeans with the exisitng Africans and Levantine population. Otherwise Einstein present day Greeks wouldn't have their genes would they. Jump high or jump low professor you won't be able to escape that fact.
Arrow99 wrote:
quote: To make the LEAP to an african influnce in Greece you are going to have to prove much more.
There is no LEAP my friend. Much later than the neolithic, in proto-historic times, we have ample evidence of further African and Asian (via Egypt and Southwest Asia) role in civilizing the Greeks. Even the Greeks themselves attest to it. But this is for another time and another thread.
Arrow99 wrote:
quote:Evergreen, the problem is that you can't make the point you are trying to make, its a supposition. You make a leap in there that simply cannot be made. You cannot tell me how many africans were even in Greece and have no idea what their relationship was to other people who were there at the time. You are taking the existence of the gene and drawing conclusions that have no support.
You're attempting to use the mists of pre-history to hide behind and distract but it won't work. Here's why: The knife you're using to shread the evidence of an African presence is double edged. You can't tell us how many Indo-Europeans were there at the time were either. What are we left with to make intelligent statements: We're left with: 1) The genetic legacy of those neoltihc peoples still written in blood in the people extant today. 2) The archaelogical evidence of an advanced culture ariving from the levant. 3) The cranial evidence of a non-european people (by the way regarding your silly rhetorical posturing that there may have been only 25 - I'm sure you'll find much more than 25 Afican skulls) 4) Zero evidence of neolithic or farming cultures beginning in Europe.
Arrow99 wrote:
quote:It was those "fundamentally Nordic and Europeans people in Greece who lit the spark that changed the world.
Whatever dude. If that type of baseless garbage floats your boat then - smooth sailing my friend. Horemheb the Arc of delusion carrying you and your discredited arguments will not find refuge from the deluge of facts raining down upon it.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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Nor do they attribute Y chromosome E3b to a small number of slaves.
Greece was a slave society and any rate - many if not most classical greeks were slaves, but Neolithic Africans as discovered by European Anthropologist Larry Angel - certainly were not.
It's amazing how stupid Horemheb remains after years of delineating facts to him over and over.
It's as if, any information he doesn't like, his small mind refuses to process. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:It's amazing how stupid Horemheb remains after years of delineating facts to him over and over.
It seems to be quite a painful process for Eurocentrists to come to grips with, their fall from the heavens, from superman to man. Hore reminds me of some old soldier who stays in the woods fighting (in his own mind) long after the war is over.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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The part about getting together with European feamales in mere speculation on your part Super car.
...which you earlier claimed to have agreed with by, via the paternal tropical African lineages in Greeks. So I take it that you disagree with what you agree with(?); LOL, talk about a real mixed up fellow!
quote:Arrow99: You do not have a shred of evidence to back up that claim.
See post above.
quote:Arrow99:
You say "they moved," again, who is they?
Advice: Take a special English class, and then read my notes.
quote:Arrow99: here is what we can agree on.
Good. Now, refute what you disagree with, as I have challenged you.
quote:Arrow99:
We can agree that Africans or some poeple of an African mixture were in the area during neolithic times.
So, you now agree to not disagree with your earlier agreement!
quote:Arrow99:
You are aware that most classical scholars believe that African genes were injected into Greece by a small number of people, possibly even slaves over the years.
Contradicts your agreement above, concerning the Neolithic extraction. Tropical African patrilineages observed in Greece are largely, though not exclusively, relics of Neolithic diffusion, during which time Europe was exclusively inhabited by wandering hunter-gatherers, and hence, your talk of 'slaves' just makes you look well,...sub-intelligent.
quote:Arrow99:
I will not argue that point because like you, I do not know either.
If you had any sense, you won't argue, because: read post above.
quote:Arrow99:
Their genetic legacy does not prove your case.
Of course it does; you haven't refuted it. Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
Calypso, Prove to us that the Greeks are a combination of Indo Europeans and Africans ??? There is not a scrap of evidence to support that view. The point is that a very small group could have spread those genes throughout the region over 10,000 years OR they could have been injected into the population through other means over thousands of years. Could have , should have , might have etc..this is what you are trying to hang your hat on. Its exactly why classical scholars in mass reject your view. rasol cannot show the point at which these neolithic aficans joined culturally with ANY Greeks. The only thing he can actually prove is that at some point they existed and absolutely nothing more. Just saying the Greeks were connected with this group of people does not make it so. I want a historical discription of how this happened. You guys are running around like a bunch of chickens whith their heads cut off and cannot give me the answer. ALL you can say is that some neolithic blacks lived in the area at one time. You cannot even prove if they were still there when the Indo Europeans arrive. That is not an answer.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:ARROW99: The only thing he can actually prove is that at some point they existed and absolutely nothing more. Just saying the Greeks were connected with this group of people does not make it so.
What do you mean "Just saying the Greeks were connected with this group of people does not make it so."? If they found this y haplotype in modern greeks which represents an old migration of "this group of people", then how can it not be proven that ancient "Greeks were connected with this group of people"? Unless you think modern Greeks are not descendants of Ancient Greeks.
quote:You cannot even prove if they were still there when the Indo Europeans arrive. That is not an answer.
if you can find traces of them in modern greeks, then they must have been there when indo-europeans arrived.
Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Not neccessarily Yonis. (1) over 10,000 years 25 people could account for that spread (2) the genes could of come in in other ways as well. raso;'s reasearch indicated a medieval infusion. My point is you CANNOT prove anything. To make this point you have to be able to show the SPECIFIC point where these africans started to breed with Indo Europeans, you cannot do that.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Calypso, Prove to us that the Greeks are a combination of Indo Europeans and Africans ??? There is not a scrap of evidence to support that view. The point is that a very small group could have spread those genes throughout the region over 10,000 years OR they could have been injected into the population through other means over thousands of years. Could have , should have , might have etc..this is what you are trying to hang your hat on. Its exactly why classical scholars in mass reject your view.
I could also play your stupid game and suppose that there were only 15 Indo-Europeans and you can't PROVE otherwise.
The evidence to support this, that Greeks are a combination of IndoEurs and Africans, is signed in the blood of the people called Greeks - 25% African neolithic Y chromosme. This is who the Greeks ARE whether or not you like it.
Arrow99 wrote:
quote:Not neccessarily Yonis. (1) over 10,000 years 25 people could account for that spread (2) the genes could of come in in other ways as well. raso;'s reasearch indicated a medieval infusion. My point is you CANNOT prove anything.
See above: Neolithic spread, not medieval - get a dictionary if you still have problems with the time of the arrival of African genes.
Since the modern day Greek population still carries 25% African Y chromosome one can only assume that the Indo-European men at the time were all eunuchs if just 25 Africans did all that damage to their women!
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Calypso, 25% may carry a particular gene but that does not make them 25% african. The fact is that you cannot establish a 'point of contact.' You have no idea if any particular africans were even still in Greece when the Indo Europeans arrived and beyond that you cannot even establish that the africans who were in the area at whatever time were even still African. The very fact that Classical scholars think the view is nutty condems your argument. Again, show me the frickin point of contact?????? Show me a village that is part African and part Indo European???? You simply cannot do it so you just blow smoke.
There are white people walking around everywhere carrying a black gene or two but it doesn't make them black.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Arrow99: Show me a village that is part African and part Indo European????
What do you mean part "indo-european"? Indo-European is a language family phyllum not a certain people, so don't even try. Both dark Indians and pale Norwegians are indo-European speakers. So they could have looked like indians or Iranians these "indo-europeans" who were in Greece not necesserilly like British or German, modern Greeks certainly look more Iranian than British or German, most likely did the ancients too.
Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Calypso, 25% may carry a particular gene but that does not make them 25% african.
More distraction and hot air. I never claimed Greeks are 25% African. Learn how to read professor Hore.
Horemheb wrote:
quote:You have no idea if any particular africans were even still in Greece when the Indo Europeans arrived
The Indo-Europeans are not the stars in this show Hore. But when ever they arrived here is the profile of the people who they met (the stars of this show):
quote:Larry Angel (1972) -- one can identify Negroid traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters.(McCown, 1939) And in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers, probably from Nubia via the predecesors of the Badarians and Tasians...
And for the last time: We know they were still present when the IndoEurs arrived because the Greeks are an almalgamation of these IndoEurs and the farmers they met - evidence: E3b 25%. Now act stupid as if you don't understand this.
E3B in Greeks: 25% Hore acting stupid: priceless!
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
^Supercar, I'm sure we'll have ample reason to say that, again and again, to Arrow in the coming months.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Prince_of_punt: E3B= African
Brother of
E3A= African
Greeks as well as many other Europeans carry E3B, therefore Greeks must be part African,duh!
While E3b most likely had an east African ("black") origin, it also occurs among west Asian populations. What derivation of E3b predominates among Greeks? Does it most closely resemble derivations found in Africa or those in west Asia?
Posts: 7093 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Prince, No, its not that simple. based on your logic, or lack thereof, 25% of white Americans would be Africans as well.
Calypso, First, my name is not Hore. Secondly, you cannot even demonstrate a contact point nor can you show the genetic composition of classical Greeks who are actually closer to the time at question than modern Greeks would be. You have simply come to the table with no information to prove your point.
The quote you offered from Angel does nothing to help you. tha Natufians drive you back in time even further. Classical Scholars reject your position and as a result the rest of us do as well. To prove it you need the following:
1. You need a contact point between these Africans and Indo Europeans, you do not have it. 2. You need to show the genetic makeup of classical Greeks, not modern Greeks 3. You need to demonstrate some SPECIFIC cultural trait given to the Indo Europeans by these Africans.
Good luck
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Going back to the topic discussed in the header post, I'd like to state that I've given Mr. Senu a "recolorizing":
Remember, dudes, if you don't like a reconstruction, get Photoshop, GIMP, or some other sophisticated image-editing software, and give it a color job!
Posts: 7093 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ARROW99: The Greeks were Indo Europeans Evergreen.Perhaps you can dig into thir background and report to us on their "hybrid origins."
Are you going to defend this statement made while challenging someone else to defend theirs? Let me go back and make sure I didn't miss the post(s) where you gave irrefutable info about who these IE were.
Posts: 18 | Registered: May 2006
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Isn't it interesting how as a collective white folks supported DNA where it concerned OJ, but denounce its findings where it concerns them carrying African DNA. Posts: 18 | Registered: May 2006
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quote:Calypso, First, my name is not Hore. Secondly, you cannot even demonstrate a contact point nor can you show the genetic composition of classical Greeks who are actually closer to the time at question than modern Greeks would be. You have simply come to the table with no information to prove your point.
The quote you offered from Angel does nothing to help you. tha Natufians drive you back in time even further. Classical Scholars reject your position and as a result the rest of us do as well. To prove it you need the following:
1. You need a contact point between these Africans and Indo Europeans, you do not have it. 2. You need to show the genetic makeup of classical Greeks, not modern Greeks 3. You need to demonstrate some SPECIFIC cultural trait given to the Indo Europeans by these Africans.
Good luck
No one could be as obtuse as you pretend to be. One can only conclude that, you came back to the forum exactly as you left it a few months ago, merely a troll seeking to distract from meaningful discussion.
Good luck to you sir.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ARROW99: This Professor must have been a hell of a guy the way you folks talk about him.
Don't flatter yourself, and yes I said yourself! Give it up Hore, the jig is up! LOL
You come from the same state and you have the exact same argument style! With the exact same responses to the facts of African Neolithic ancestry as before! No way could it be coincidence!
Posts: 26307 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
sure it could be a coincidence since the same arguments would be made by most people. If yu do a closer check on the IP numbers you will find we are not the same.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ARROW99: The part about getting together with European feamales in mere speculation on your part Super car. You do not have a shred of evidence to back up that claim.
LOL If that is your answer to paternal lineages being dominant, it is because of a certain genetic process called founder effect that occurs when a small number of people move into a sparely populated area.
quote:You say "they moved," again, who is they? here is what we can agree on. We can agree that Africans or some poeple of an African mixture were in the area during neolithic times. You are aware that most classical scholars believe that African genes were injected into Greece by a small number of people, possibly even slaves over the years.
Correction, you are right about a small number of people of African ancestry being in the area but they definitely were not slaves.
The White supremacist notion is that anywhere you have African ancestry outside of Africa, it has to come from "slaves", the only problem is we have no evidence of an African slave trade during the Neolithic, but we do have evidence of the spread of Neolithic culture itself which seems to correspond with the gene.
quote:I will not argue that point because like you, I do not know either. Their genetic legacy does not prove your case. Even rasol's own posted research states that the Greeks are "fundamentally Nordic and Europeans." That means NOT fundamentally african.
LOL Rasol was merely repeating a popular FALLACY. Anyone who knows about Greeks knows there are/were no 'Nordics', and if there were they must have been in the minority since most Greeks follow a 'Mediterranean' type, and by that term I mean dark hair and dark eyes etc. You are just caught up in a white- Nordic fantasy! Posts: 26307 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ARROW99: sure it could be a coincidence since the same arguments would be made by most people. If yu do a closer check on the IP numbers you will find we are not the same.
Of course, because you either moved to a new location or registered with a new computer. Posts: 26307 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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