quote:Originally posted by Underpants Man: Going back to the topic discussed in the header post, I'd like to state that I've given Mr. Senu a "recolorizing":
Remember, dudes, if you don't like a reconstruction, get Photoshop, GIMP, or some other sophisticated image-editing software, and give it a color job!
Sorry, but color isn't the only thing that is wrong with the reconstruction. You can just look at the features including the eyebrows etc.
I'm telling you those Japanese guys didn't even bother using an Egyptian model at all, not even an Arab Egyptian! They used one of their people as the model!
For some reason the Japanese aren't that honest in scholarship, even involving their own archaeology.
I reall wasn't at all surprised by the look of the reconstruction, when I heard a Japanese team was working on it.
Oh well, at least it will give people (if they're intelligent enough) the chance to realize that reconstructions are not that accurate especially if you use a model that does not closely resemble the deseased.
Posts: 26361 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Thats not likely. Texas has 30 million people and I am almost out of Texas. I'm 5 miles from Louisiana. If you sime give reasonable answers to the three questions I asked , WITH SPECIFICS, it would be a moot point.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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The place in so-called "west Asia" has a discontinuity with the EurAsian continent delimited by mountains created by the crash of the African breakaway Arabian tectonic plate into said continent.
Likewise with E3b; its birth in Africa and expansion to the far northeast extension of Africa before it crossed the mountain barrier to get to the Balkans.
Or did it hug the coast and only then make it to Turkey via the Balkans. All this in reference to the predominant derivation of E3b in Greeks, etc.
quote:Originally posted by Underpants Man:
quote:Originally posted by Prince_of_punt: E3B= African
Brother of
E3A= African
Greeks as well as many other Europeans carry E3B, therefore Greeks must be part African,duh!
While E3b most likely had an east African ("black") origin, it also occurs among west Asian populations. What derivation of E3b predominates among Greeks? Does it most closely resemble derivations found in Africa or those in west Asia?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:The part about getting together with European feamales in mere speculation on your part Super car. You do not have a shred of evidence to back up that claim.
deet! dee-dee! Professor . before continuing, I avise you to find out what a Y chromosome is. lol
quote:Calypso, Prove to us that the Greeks are a combination of Indo Europeans and Africans ??? There is not a scrap of evidence to support that view.
NOoooo, professor nooo! You just explosed yourself, which I guess is like exposing the fact that grass is green but...
I mean it would seem as if this could NOT be the same guy for the simple fact that he should've learned, but then again he is the professor...
I swear sometimes it's like he can't read, he says theres no proof right after it's provided.
Even for hore, he HAS to be acting.
Was he always THIS dense? I just remembered him being a good learning tool when I was new (I started to absorb mainly what others were posting)
quote:Since the modern day Greek population still carries 25% African Y chromosome one can only assume that the Indo-European men at the time were all eunuchs if just 25 Africans did all that damage to their women!
lol
Calypso:
quote:Horemheb wrote:
quote: You have no idea if any particular africans were even still in Greece when the Indo Europeans arrived
The Indo-Europeans are not the stars in this show Hore. But when ever they arrived here is the profile of the people who they met (the stars of this show):
lol
So, professor Hore I guess from your view it was the Indo-Europeans who brought the culture when they arrived. (from reading all your posts)
Talk about "not a scrap of evidence to support that view."
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:While E3b most likely had an east African ("black") origin, it also occurs among west Asian populations. What derivation of E3b predominates among Greeks? Does it most closely resemble derivations found in Africa or those in west Asia?
E3b1 is found in highest frequency in Somali, Oromo and Borana of Kenya, then Ethiopia and the Upper Nile Valley.
West Asia has primarily E3b3, with relatively lesser amounts of E3b1.
E3b1 spread from the Horn/Sudan, down the Nile Valley and into Levantine, and thence West into Anatolia and East into SW Asia. during the pre-Neolithic.
E3b3 either spread from Ethiopia into Southern Arabia, or also down the Nile and into the Levant.
E3b2 spread from NorthEast Africa into NorthWest Africa.
Hence E3b3 marks African Ancestry in SouthWest Asians.
E3b2 marks East African expansions into NorthWest Africa, and E3b1 marks African expansions into Europe as well as SouthWest Asia, Northwest and West Africa as the Wolof of Senegal also have E3b1.
All of these lineages spread in the pre-neolithic because new-lithic techniques - including pottery, and other precursors to sedantism occur at this time -
This is what caused among the 1st great human population expansions from Africa and into Eurasia.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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The part about getting together with European feamales in mere speculation on your part Super car. You do not have a shred of evidence to back up that claim.
LOL If that is your answer to paternal lineages being dominant, it is because of a certain genetic process called founder effect that occurs when a small number of people move into a sparely populated area.
It must be noted that the Neolithic immigrants who arrived from the "Near East" found populations already in Europe, when they arrived.
quote:Djehuti:
quote:You say "they moved," again, who is they? here is what we can agree on. We can agree that Africans or some poeple of an African mixture were in the area during neolithic times. You are aware that most classical scholars believe that African genes were injected into Greece by a small number of people, possibly even slaves over the years.
Correction, you are right about a small number of people of African ancestry being in the area but they definitely were not slaves.
I'm not sure how you ajudge the numbers, but it is clear that the Neolithic immigrants had spread across southern Europe first, and thereafter, the Neolithic farming economy difussed into the northern regions via demic difussion. The lineages of these Neolithic migrants can be found across southern Europe, not just Greece, although Greece provides a great example, in the relative intensity of frequency.
quote:Djehuti:
The White supremacist notion is that anywhere you have African ancestry outside of Africa, it has to come from "slaves", the only problem is we have no evidence of an African slave trade during the Neolithic, but we do have evidence of the spread of Neolithic culture itself which seems to correspond with the gene.
I don't see it as a problem, but rather, as being intellectually bankrupt to assume that the Neolithic migrants were the 'slaves' of wandering hunter-gatherers they spread their culture to. If there is to be any stretch of imagination, one can 'speculate' that the hunter-gatherers were the ones taken as 'slaves'.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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The funny thing is that Arrow99 does not know what hes talking about himself. Well accepted scientific articles and proofs of E3b being an African haplotype found amongst certain Europeans has been shown to him, and yet he fails to accept the truth.
90% of the world extant male population are descendants of haplogroup F's subclades. All modern populations came from Africa. Modern Africans tend to have the oldest lineages such as A,B and E which all predate Eurasains.
Greeks and many other Balkan region Europeans carry quite recent African ancestory aswell as others, making them a hybrid mullato population!
I think Arrow99 must be sad that hes a Mullato who is a descendant of those who he despised. Sorry my friend, its best just to accept it!
-------------------- Hello! Posts: 265 | From: UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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While E3b most likely had an east African ("black") origin, it also occurs among west Asian populations.
It occurs in "West Asia" because of "Black" African ancestry.
quote:Underpants Man:
What derivation of E3b predominates among Greeks?
The alpha cluster, which takes nothing away from the fact that the lineage still denotes tropical African ancestry, but I thought you knew this by now.
quote:Underpants Man: Does it most closely resemble derivations found in Africa or those in west Asia?
LOL. Lineage is not a phenotype; it is lineage of tropical African origin, and hence, naturally closely 'resembles' that parent.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ARROW99: So now the Japanese are dishonest? Here we go down that same old road.
Have you even heard about what goes on in Japanese academia concerning archaeology?? Japan is considered the laughing stock of the whole archaeological field and Asian archaeology especially. The dishonesty is so bad, many of their scholars have been forced to work on areas outside of their country just gain some semblance of credit!
So, you agree with the Japanese look of the reconstruction?? So now, ancient Egyptians like this military general Senu can look like anyone from "Mediterranean kacazoids" to "Mongoloid Asians", just anything but black! LOL
quote:Originally posted by ARROW99: Thats not likely. Texas has 30 million people and I am almost out of Texas. I'm 5 miles from Louisiana. If you sime give reasonable answers to the three questions I asked , WITH SPECIFICS, it would be a moot point.
Which means I'm right-- you moved and changed your location and perhaps your computer as well. Posts: 26361 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Underpants Man: Does it most closely resemble derivations found in Africa or those in west Asia?
LOL. Lineage is not a phenotype; it is lineage of tropical African origin, and hence, naturally closely 'resembles' that parent.
Your question is almost akin to asking whether siblings resemble each other more than they do their parent. The immediate question that arises is, what bearing does the resemblance of siblings have with their ties to their parent? They are equally tied to their parent, which in this case, is the E-M78.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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i have never seen a group of people who can rant and rave so much and still come up with nothing. The three questions remain unanswered.
!. What was the point of contact between these Neolitic Africans and the Indo Europeans. (the SPECIFIC point of contact)
2. Show a peer revied study showing classical greeks with these genes.
3. Demonstrate a specific cultural trait that these neolithic africans gave the Greeks.
If you cannot do these things we have to assume that there is a possiblity that these African genes were introduced later in medieval as per the study rasol posted earlier.
quote: Arrow99 wrote: !. What was the point of contact between these Neolitic Africans and the Indo Europeans. (the SPECIFIC point of contact)
Professor Horrow,
I'm too much of a gentleman. I blush to describe to you the most significant point of contact between the "neolithic Africans" and the young "indo-european" nubiles.
Suffice it to say however they, uh, contacted, today Greeks carry 25% E3B! Apparently point of contact was enjoyed by all!
Keep on acting stupid dude.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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can't tell me when the contact occured Calypso then you have nothing. Might have heen 1066 or 1492 for all you know. If you cannot show me specific cultural and racial contact then Cahill and ALL the classical scholars are correct. Stupid is not having any information, I've been waiting for days...pony up.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ARROW99: 1. What was the point of contact between these Neolitic Africans and the Indo Europeans. (the SPECIFIC point of contact)
I would say the Aegean and Greece proper, as we have no evidence of Indo-European contact in Africa or the Levant until later 'Classical' times with exception of the Indo-European Mitanni and Hittites who reached northern Syria in the late Bronze Age.
quote:2. Show a peer revied study showing classical greeks with these genes.
Professor, we have shown you many studies in the past showing these genes among modern day Greeks which date back to the Neolithic as well actual skeletal remains, all here: OT: Whitewashing Ancient Greece
quote:3. Demonstrate a specific cultural trait that these neolithic africans gave the Greeks.
Well for one, agriculture as well as animal domestication, and all the other elements of the Neolithic that is the basis for civilization i.e. urbanization, pottery, weaving, the calendar, advanced stone technology, you name it.
quote:3. If you cannot do these things we have to assume that there is a possiblity that these African genes were introduced later in medieval as per the study rasol posted earlier.
Sorry, but the mutational rate that the scientists estimated seem to be accurate and while I don't doubt African geneflow into Europe during Medieval times (such as Moors) most of it dates back to Neolithic times. These genes correspond to anthropological findings of "negroid" traits among the first farmers of Europe, which of course correspond to the introduction of the Neolithic hence "first farmers".
And again, these lineages are not just male--E3b but female also--N1a, although the male lineages seem to be more prevalent.
quote:can't tell me when the contact occured Calypso then you have nothing.
We told you when already, -- the Neolithic. Where? In Greece where the Indo-European speakers found them! (I thought Cahill made that clear?)
quote:Might have heen 1066 or 1492 for all you know..
Nope. Again, scientist can measure mutational rate and therefore estimate time of divergence from its parent lineage or sibling lineages.
quote:If you cannot show me specific cultural and racial contact then Cahill and ALL the classical scholars are correct.
Again, "racial" is an unscientific concept that is socially subjective, but in terms of 'looks' we told you a hundred times the Neolithic forebearers had African-like traits:
one can identify Negroid traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters.(McCown, 1939) And in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers, probably from Nubia via the predecesors of the Badarians and Tasians-- Angel(1972)
As for cultural --the Neolithic as I've stated above.
Again did you not cite your author Cahill as saying: "Of the indigenous farming folk they [Greek speakers] encountered we know even less."
LOL And what little we do know is that it was these "indigenous farming folk" who founded the very roots of civilization before contact with Indo-European speakers!
quote:Stupid is not having any information, I've been waiting for days...pony up.
No. Stupid is when we do have information and we keep presenting it to you but you keep denying it!
Stupid, is when you keep talking the same nonsense for years without hardly ever citing a thing to back up your claims, and what little you do cite you cannot successfully defend it.
Just plain dumb as hell is doing all of the above AND trying to pose as someone else "new" here to this forum when you live in the exact same state (Texas), write in the exact same style (as well as saying the exact same nonsense), AND even citing the exact same source-- Thomas Cahill's book Sailing the Wine-Dark Sea: Why the Greeks Matter, Professor!!!
You know what they say, "Stupid is as stupid does," and well, after everything you've said and done here you're still the...
DEET DEE-DEE!!Posts: 26361 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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You have not answered a single one of the three questions I asked....not one. You give me some general chatter about the neolithic sperad without saying one specific thing about it. Answer the questions and you win. You know the data is not there so you put out the same stuff over and over. Go back and look at the three questions again.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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^^ Professor, I answered all of your 3 questions one at a time. I don't know if you understood them or not, but I cannot make them anymore simpler.
All other folks in this forum with a brain that can read and comprehend can see the answers.
You are definitely the...
DEET DEE-DEE!!
I can't believe they actually allowed you to get a degree and teach as a professor. I would say you are another example of standards being lowered in education (dumbing down the system), but I didn't know it was that bad since they don't have affirmative action for whites! LOL
By the way, since you've moved into a new location I take it you don't teach at the University of Houston anymore(?) Perhaps they finally realized their mistake in hiring you? Or maybe you felt like you had to move cuz there were too many people of a certain 'racial' persuasion whose numbers were above your tolerance level. Posts: 26361 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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No. Stupid is when we do have information and we keep presenting it to you but you keep denying it!
Exactly, so it's best for one to stop being stupid by playing into hands of a troll, with respect to continuously doing what is stated above [highlighted]; instead, have Arrow refute what's already been presented both here and ever since he's been posting here under his former alias.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ARROW99: sure it could be a coincidence since the same arguments would be made by most people. If yu do a closer check on the IP numbers you will find we are not the same.
^ A router or a simple change to the dhcp scope can make the difference on your ip address ... You can also change your subnets & gateways to create a whole new ip....
There are no idiots in this forum ... All fields of expertise are covered in this forum ... If I was an admin I would be able to tell you if you were on the same network or even using the same node ...
Peace!~
Posts: 951 | From: where rules end and freedom begins | Registered: Jun 2004
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Djehuti, At least you gave the three answers a shot but here are the problems.
Your answer to question #1 was a NON ANSWER. You said, "I would say the Aegean and Greece proper." That is not specific and gives me NO date of contact, and its gives me no specific place of contact. You are too uinterested in scholarship to think for a minute that an answer like that would hold up to hard questioning.
On question #2 you revert back to modern Greeks and skip over the question. The subject has to be Classical greeks or earlier because they are centuries closer to the question. You mention Neolithic skeletal remains but fail to give ANY information about these remains and how they might be directly connected to the ancient greeks.
Question 3 you give another non specific answer. Agriculture and animal domestication applies to the entire neolithic era, everywhere. Again, not a single specific to tie any of those groups to the indo European invasion.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ARROW99: 1. What was the point of contact between these Neolitic Africans and the Indo Europeans. (the SPECIFIC point of contact)
I would say the Aegean and Greece proper, as we have no evidence of Indo-European contact in Africa or the Levant until later 'Classical' times with exception of the Indo-European Mitanni and Hittites who reached northern Syria in the late Bronze Age.
quote:2. Show a peer revied study showing classical greeks with these genes.
Professor, we have shown you many studies in the past showing these genes among modern day Greeks which date back to the Neolithic as well actual skeletal remains, all here: OT: Whitewashing Ancient Greece
quote:3. Demonstrate a specific cultural trait that these neolithic africans gave the Greeks.
Well for one, agriculture as well as animal domestication, and all the other elements of the Neolithic that is the basis for civilization i.e. urbanization, pottery, weaving, the calendar, advanced stone technology, you name it.
quote:3. If you cannot do these things we have to assume that there is a possiblity that these African genes were introduced later in medieval as per the study rasol posted earlier.
Sorry, but the mutational rate that the scientists estimated seem to be accurate and while I don't doubt African geneflow into Europe during Medieval times (such as Moors) most of it dates back to Neolithic times. These genes correspond to anthropological findings of "negroid" traits among the first farmers of Europe, which of course correspond to the introduction of the Neolithic hence "first farmers".
And again, these lineages are not just male--E3b but female also--N1a, although the male lineages seem to be more prevalent.
quote:can't tell me when the contact occured Calypso then you have nothing.
We told you when already, -- the Neolithic. Where? In Greece where the Indo-European speakers found them! (I thought Cahill made that clear?)
quote:Might have heen 1066 or 1492 for all you know..
Nope. Again, scientist can measure mutational rate and therefore estimate time of divergence from its parent lineage or sibling lineages.
quote:If you cannot show me specific cultural and racial contact then Cahill and ALL the classical scholars are correct.
Again, "racial" is an unscientific concept that is socially subjective, but in terms of 'looks' we told you a hundred times the Neolithic forebearers had African-like traits:
one can identify Negroid traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters.(McCown, 1939) And in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers, probably from Nubia via the predecesors of the Badarians and Tasians-- Angel(1972)
As for cultural --the Neolithic as I've stated above.
Again did you not cite your author Cahill as saying: "Of the indigenous farming folk they [Greek speakers] encountered we know even less."
LOL And what little we do know is that it was these "indigenous farming folk" who founded the very roots of civilization before contact with Indo-European speakers!
quote:Stupid is not having any information, I've been waiting for days...pony up.
No. Stupid is when we do have information and we keep presenting it to you but you keep denying it!
Stupid, is when you keep talking the same nonsense for years without hardly ever citing a thing to back up your claims, and what little you do cite you cannot successfully defend it.
Just plain dumb as hell is doing all of the above AND trying to pose as someone else "new" here to this forum when you live in the exact same state (Texas), write in the exact same style (as well as saying the exact same nonsense), AND even citing the exact same source-- Thomas Cahill's book Sailing the Wine-Dark Sea: Why the Greeks Matter, Professor!!!
You know what they say, "Stupid is as stupid does," and well, after everything you've said and done here you're still the...
DEET DEE-DEE!!
And right, I mean right, not even five minutes later:
quote:You have not answered a single one of the three questions I asked....not one. You give me some general chatter about the neolithic sperad without saying one specific thing about it. Answer the questions and you win. You know the data is not there so you put out the same stuff over and over. Go back and look at the three questions again.
IF horemheb could even read that fast , that response means everyone knows what's what. Right there. No more posts needed.
It's time hore posts some thing to back up his claims.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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Professor Larry Angel was among the first to find evidence of contact between African and Europeans, in Neolithic Europe. He studied Neolithic skeletal remains from Cypress, Anatolia, and Troy among other places.
Thus he does provide specific time [neolithic] and place.
If Arrow-aka Horemheb were really interested [NOT!] in the subject he'd read the works referenced in the following:
I for one, refuse to give you any more attention, because you are lazy [you will never read any of the referenced works], sub-mental [even if you read it you wouldn't understand it] and a bore.
I think you should change your alias again, and go log on to 'a life', or something.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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What a cheap shot rasol and just another way to dodge the question by insulting the person asking it. I note that is the main part of your MO.
On the one hand you rant and rave about scholars who do not take what you consider an objective look at the data in Egypt and yet when it comes to this topic you accept a conclusion based on only the very broadest data AND a conslusion that is not accepted by classical scholars anywhere. You cannot have it both ways. You can't expect non biased , objective scholarship in Egypt and readily reject in in Greece.
I am more than willing to look at your views with an open mind but I want some specific data if I'm going to do that. I want to see a specific village where Indo Europeans and black Africans mixed together to form this new Greece. I want to see a study showing that Classical Greeks contained this gene. I want to see a specific example where African cultural traits were passed on to the Greeks. You need to provide that if you are to make your case.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote: Arrow99 wrote: I am more than willing to look at your views with an open mind but I want some specific data if I'm going to do that. I want to see a specific village where Indo Europeans and black Africans mixed together to form this new Greece. I want to see a study showing that Classical Greeks contained this gene. I want to see a specific example where African cultural traits were passed on to the Greeks. You need to provide that if you are to make your case.
Let's do a deconstruction of Arrow99's, aka Horemheb, rant above. Let's see if we can discern what's really afoot.
I am: He uses this forum to validate his ego. But not in a healthy way that acknowledges and engages others. He's simply seeking attention.
I want some: Well I'm sure the internet can help you there, but not this forum.
I want to see, I want to see, I want to see: Obviously a cry for help! To quote one of sages here: "None is as blind as those who won't see."
I am going: We won't get our hopes too high Hore. Seems to good to be true.
Your challenge to Rasol, above, is another case of mind over matter: Rasol has the mind and you don't ...
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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calypso, again you dodge the issue and avoid my questions with rudeness. Do you think i care about what you think about me personally? The only thing I want are answers to my questions and neither you, rasol or the others seem to have them.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote: Arrow99 wrote: I am more than willing to look at your views with an open mind but I want some specific data if I'm going to do that. I want to see a specific village where Indo Europeans and black Africans mixed together to form this new Greece. I want to see a study showing that Classical Greeks contained this gene. I want to see a specific example where African cultural traits were passed on to the Greeks. You need to provide that if you are to make your case.
Let's do a deconstruction of Arrow99's, aka Horemheb, rant above. Let's see if we can discern what's really afoot.
I am: He uses this forum to validate his ego. But not in a healthy way that acknowledges and engages others. He's simply seeking attention.
I want some: Well I'm sure the internet can help you there, but not this forum.
I want to see, I want to see, I want to see: Obviously a cry for help! To quote one of sages here: "None is as blind as those who won't see."
I am going: We won't get our hopes too high Hore. Seems to good to be true.
Your challenge to Rasol, above, is another case of mind over matter: Rasol has the mind and you don't ...
posted
If all you are about is personal insults then you are admitting you have no answers.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Arrow99: again you dodge the issue and aviod my questions with rudeness
Arrow99 not rudeness - just sticking a pin in your hot air balloon. Lampooning you in a playful spirit.
What do you mean you want a specific date and village? Do you think the neolithic people, moving from the levant into southern Europe, carried frikkin blackberries attached to their laptops?
Do you think they threw up an everlasting memorial on the spot where they saw the first gringo?
There are many historic events (historic not even pre-historic) that if challenged you could not give specifics for. Does that mean they didn't occur?
And as for your classical Greek versus modern Greek ruse: Its just stupid!
Your questions are the height of sophistry.
Your style is sophomoric.
I don't like being rude to anyone but your history and pattern of racist thought is equally rude. It's nothing personal Arrow99. I attack you on ideological grounds. I'm a leftist; you're far right: thus the attack.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
No, it is rudeness and I am not far right at all.
The questions I ask get to the heart of the issue. If you can't give specifics then why are you making the claim?
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote: Arrow99 wrote: No, it is rudeness and I am not far right at all.
Interesting. You deny being far right, but not the history and pattern of racist thought. Good that's honesty on your part. Kudos.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:On the one hand you rant and rave about scholars who do not take what you consider an objective look at the data in Egypt and yet when it comes to this topic you accept a conclusion based on only the very broadest data AND a conslusion that is not accepted by classical scholars anywhere. You cannot have it both ways. You can't expect non biased , objective scholarship in Egypt and readily reject in in Greece.
Simply put, No. Stop with the games, kid.
Rasol and others cite proofs and staff to refute data provided (some trolls have at least done THAT), whilst you don't do anything but give opinions rant, and make statements.
I wonder why you canNOT find evidence that this did NOT happen? Why you can't refute JACK. Only buy time, which you do (as your reply to Dje's post came a day after his post and your decoy rejection of it).
quote: Calypso posted: Do you think they threw up an everlasting memorial on the spot where they saw the first gringo?
posted
WhatBox, Its not my job to find evidence that it DID NOT happen, its your job to prove it did. If I make a historical claim then I have to back it up if I expect anyone to believe it. I ask for specific answers to three questions and I did not get answers. Its as simple as that. If these guys can prove the point i would be more than happy to accept it.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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rasol, You also know you did not come up with an adequate answer to the three questions. Blowhardism is not a substitute for an adequate answer to the questions. I could care less about your snippy comments. They are just a sign that you have no answers. Since you do not have the data to make the case i'll have to assume that all of the classical scholars are correct on the subject and you are not.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:ARROW99 originally posted: WhatBox, Its not my job to find evidence that it DID NOT happen, its your job to prove it did.
1st off, leave the facism at your doorstep .
2nd off, It's practised to refute claims with evidence (which we do). Next the person who made the claim attempts to support their claim with evidence. ETC.
It is hippocritical of you to demand evidence, when you don't provide anything.
and, The absence of specific gringo village memorial type evidence, definately doesn't mean evidence of absence!
AND, evidence HAS been provided.
quote:!. What was the point of contact between these Neolitic Africans and the Indo Europeans. (the SPECIFIC point of contact)
Are you sure? Well, if you do not know, then I suggest you don't come back 'till ya know.
question !.) STATUS: Has been answered, but you ask for specifics, so:
But if you really have to know, then HERE (< clickable link) is the point of contact. (the SPECIFIC point (detailed) contact)
posted
^ Whatbox & Rasol, Thanks for backing me up above. I meant my comments to be humorous so that Arrow would stop taking himself so seriously and treat the enviable intelligence, that you guys bring to the board, with a little respect.
He obviously likes posting here so he ought to put his agenda aside and pay attention to what others have to say without childish knee-jerk opposition.
One thing good I can say about Arrow is that he seems to be of a rather genteel character; somewhat ironic that he's such a rascist.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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a) you don't really want to learn anything. ... Therefore discussion with you is always pointless.
That sums up Hore it In a nutshell. He does not even give others the respect of reading what they post.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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Arrow's questions amount to, "convince me", and if one is going to do this, you'll never be able to, because he can incessantly deny being 'convinced'; hence, it becomes a loosing undertaking. Once this is understood, then it becomes apparent that this "lifeline" of his has to be cut short, by placing the burden squarely on him, in terms of forcing him to be on the 'defensive', i.e. to come up with answers to the challenges placed before him...instead of allowing him to be the recipient of info that has been pointed out time and again.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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The discussion is pointless because you are not saying anything short of hurling insults.
***You did not establish that the African genes found in modern greeks were transmitted during late neolithic times.
***You did not show me a single piece of research, not one, that connects any neolithic Africans to Mycenaeans or Indo Europeans.That requires a SPECIFIC piece of archeology to establish.
*** you cannot even establish that the SW Asians you claim influenced the Greeks were even still fully african.
*** you did not show me a single cultural trait these so called black Greeks passed on to the historical Greeks that we know.
All of this considered the only conclusion we can draw is the one 99.9 % of people accept and that Classical SCholars all agree on and that is that the black genes in modern Greeks trickled into the population over 30 centuries and have nothing to do with any mythical neolitic spread.
John Chadwick is his watershed book on the Mycenaeans never mentions one single word about Africa, not a single word about neolithic blacks in Greece and only two references to Egypt, one dealing with trade and one with the Sea Peoples.
You guys can do a better job than this. That you can do nothing more than throw insults at those who challenge you is disgusting. How can you expect to have any credibility with people who do not share your views with this kind of conduct.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:The classical scholar John Chadwick, who has died aged 78, played a leading role in one of the most important and exciting linguistic discoveries of the century, the decipherment of Linear B, the writing used by the Mycenaean civilisation of bronze-age Greece.
Incorrigibly modest, Chadwick always took second place to Michael Ventris, his colleague in the extraordinary breakthrough. Ventris had the original inspiration that the symbols of Linear B must represent syllables in an early version of Greek rather than some other, indeterminate eastern Mediterranean language. But, as one of his Cambridge colleagues confirmed after his death, Chadwick brought the expertise of a Greek philologist to the arduous and brilliant research, unaided by computers, that proved the theory.
Ventris was an architect but also an amateur linguist of genius. He had been interested in the mysterious, fire-hardened clay tablets, covered in pictograms and found in Crete and later in mainland Greece, ever since, as a schoolboy, he heard a 1936 lecture by their discoverer, the archaeologist Sir Arthur Evans. Evans identified two systems, Linear A, used by the earlier Minoan civilisation (definitely not Greek) and Linear B, which he never dreamed could be Greek.
Examining the Cretan tablets in 1951, Ventris deduced that certain groups of ideographic sylllables represented place-names on the island, which were often proto-Greek, such as ko-no-so for Knossos. In an experiment he ascribed the same sound-values to the same symbols when they appeared in other words whose meaning could be guessed from their design and context, such as pictograms for men, women, and children. Time after time the result seemed to resemble words in very ancient Greek.
Ventris therefore turned to Chadwick, then a Cambridge classics lecturer and a specialist in the early history of the language, for help. They published a controversial first paper in the Journal of Hellenic Studies in 1953 but were vindicated shortly afterwards when a new find of tablets at Pylos in Greece was deciphered using their method. The tablets contain lists of assets such as food, arms, livestock and people.
Not only had they "cracked" Linear B; by doing so they had shown for the first time that the Mycenaean civilisation that used it, more than 1,000 years before Pericles governed Athens, was Greek. It had ruled in Crete as well as such mainland sites as Mycenae, Tiryns and Pylos, for some 400 years until it was mysteriously destroyed, perhaps by a vast earthquake or volcanic explosion. The stunning discovery also lent strength to Homeric scholars who were confirmed in their theories about the date of the war against Troy and its destruction by bronze-age Greeks, as described by the poet centuries later.
Chadwick and Ventris wrote up their findings in the magisterial work, _Documents in Mycenaean Greek_, published in 1956 just before Ventris died in a car crash, and revised by Chadwick in 1973. He was the sole author of _The Decipherment of Linear B_ in 1958, which made an intricate process of decryption readably accessible to the lay reader.
Put away the crack pipe dude. What does dicipherment of a written language have to do with genetics.
You're a very dishonest person. You cite a 1956 work in which the authors could not possibly have commented on genetic findings which occured three decades later.
It shows, yet again, the sophistry of your arguments. It's not mere laziness. Its purposeful dishonesty.
Posts: 1038 | From: Franklin Park, NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
I deal with genetics, or your absolute lack of ability to connect any africans to early Greeks. Secondly, I am not a "dude." that kind of language makes me wonder about your background.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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Then tell us where the Greeks get Benin HBS autosome?
Truth is you're completely clueless.
If you can prove to us that you're not ineducable, then maybe you'll convince us that discussion with you is not a waste of time.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ARROW99: I deal with genetics, or your absolute lack of ability to connect any africans to early Greeks. Secondly, I am not a "dude." that kind of language makes me wonder about your background.
Horemheb where is the evidence that runs contra to Supercar and rasol's points that have ben established? Stop creating strawmen to knock down, no one has said classical Greece was overflowing with n-groids, what was stated was that the lements that went into creating Greek civilization came from Africa in the pre and proto-historic, thereby debunking the notion of a "Greek miracle" civilization that ws totally European. African genes and culture was transmitted from Africa into the Levant and from the Levant both African and Levantine genes[haplogroups E,G and J] and culture was transmitted to Europe, again, debunking the notion of a pure European classical Greece, genetically and culturally. Now where is your peer-reviewed evidence to refute thsi?
Posts: 2601 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
X Ras, they have not established a SINGLE point. Read this very closely.
I asked them to PROVE their contention that the african genes in modern greeks came from neolithic Africans. To prove that IT REQUIRES that you show some DIRECT evidence in one of two ways.
1. You can show that the Indo Europeans contained these black genes or
2. You can show where the two cultures come together in a SPECIFIC piece of archeology.
This is not rocket science X Ras. All these guys have in their quiver are insults. Rasol knows he has not answered the question, thats why he slings the insults, otherwise he would not need them
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ARROW99: X Ras, they have not established a SINGLE point. Read this very closely.
I asked them to PROVE their contention that the african genes in modern greeks came from neolithic Africans. To prove that IT REQUIRES that you show some DIRECT evidence in one of two ways.
1. You can show that the Indo Europeans contained these black genes or
2. You can show where the two cultures come together in a SPECIFIC piece of archeology.
This is not rocket science X Ras. All these guys have in their quiver are insults. Rasol knows he has not answered the question, thats why he slings the insults, otherwise he would not need them
Your Eurocentrism is blinding your eyes Horemheb, haplogroups E, g and J in Greeks *ARE* Neolithic lineages in Greeks, do some research professor. Indo European is a language group, not a race or one uniform people.
Posts: 2601 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
You are incorrect again X Ras. Indo European is a language group but it also used to identify the group of people who swept though Greece after 2000 BC. Show me the study that says ancient Greeks had these genes X Ras. Thats the point all of the classical scholars make when they reject this argument. You cannot simply ignore what every Ancient Greek expert in the field says because you want to make some black political point. The evidence is simply not there.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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. before continuing, I avise you to find out what a Y chromosome is. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
lol
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Professor, we have shown you many studies in the past showing these genes among modern day Greeks which date back to the Neolithic as well actual skeletal remains, all here: ![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
Just plain dumb as hell is doing all of the above AND trying to pose as someone else "new" here to this forum when you live in the exact same state (Texas), write in the exact same style (as well as saying the exact same nonsense), AND even citing the exact same source-- Thomas Cahill's book Sailing the Wine-Dark Sea: Why the Greeks Matter, Professor!!! 
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