quote:Red was ascribed to negative attributes and the Egyptians grouped lighter-skinned neighbors such as Southwest Asians and Libyans into the red category while Egyptians and those darker than them were grouped as black peoples.
Is this correct?
If so was the term "Kmt." not in reference to skin color?
I apologize for answering your questions with 'mock' question/analogies but I find the approach useful, given redundant questions that answer themselves, only to evade understanding their own answer:
[begin parody of self answering question]
Black was ascribed to negative attributes and the Latins grouped darker-skinned neighbors such as Africans and Indians into the Black category while Latins and those ligther than them were grouped as white peoples.
Is this correct?
If this is so, then the term white is not in reference to skin color?
[end parody of self answering question]
You wrote 3 paragraphs relating to defining ethnicity by skin color catagories and then asked if said catagories had anything to do with skin color? ? ?
Here is my question: How can you manage to draw a conclusion that is the complete opposite of everything you just said?
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: Are you saying that when you look at this image you cannot visually see what the Egyptians actually wrote?
I can't read Egyptian Hieroglyphs.
Can you provide a source that is consistent with the interpretations of the imagery you and Al Takuri have provided?
By that I ofcourse mean an authorative source, an expert in Egyptian culture and language.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Same can be said for the Red Aamu and Temeu who are different in skintone. Are you saying that you cannot understand how both can be considered Reds?
Since there are in fact no group of people who are literally uniformly Red nor Uniformly Black, is it sensible to expect references to 'black' and 'red' peoples to uniformly portray such?
Are modern Black and White people literally Black and literally White?
Are they uniformly portrayed as such?
How can you call the 'uniformly' lighter toned Black Americans "Blacks," then portray the 'uniformly' darker Africans differently?
If Black Americans are Black then what color are Black Africans?
I already said that I understood that.
I'm asking under what context did the Egyptians call themselves "Kmt./black"?
I understand the color schemes you are suggesting and how they can group people of different skintones into "Blacks" and "Reds" and that this may even be a common theme in African color dialectics.
I'm just wondering what "Kmt." is in reference to because I always thought it to be a reference to skintone.
Does it have something to do with the Egyptians thinking of their people as a sacred entity rather than a reference to actual color?
Are there any experts that are in agreement with this theory?
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quote:Originally posted by Mansa Musa: I can't read Egyptian Hieroglyphs. Can you provide a source that is consistent with the interpretations of the imagery you and Al Takuri have provided?
We have both repeatedly provided the source.
Unfortunately it is never addressed, as no one can refute it, so the subject is simply changed:
Jean-Francois Champollion (1790 - 1832) was said to have learned enough Greek and Latin by the time he was nine to read Homer and Vergil. He studied Persian, Ethiopic, Sanskrit, Zend, Pahlevi and Arabic, and worked on a Coptic dictionary by the time he was 19. Champollion finally found the key to translating the Rosetta Stone in 1822.
Jean Francois Champollion provided the first description of the Book of Gates.
Champollion died suddenly on 4 March 1832, in the midst of writing his great Egyptian grammar and dictionary. This was published by his brother after his death.
I'm just wondering what "Kmt." is in reference to because I always thought it to be a reference to skintone.
Does it have something to do with the Egyptians thinking of their people as a sacred entity rather than a reference to actual color?
Are there any experts that are in agreement with this theory?
Just as pointed out above, you've made the realization that categorization based on color was done on the said wall relief. And you also realize that 'black' was seen as sacred. So simply put; they refered to themselves as such, because they thought of themselves in both contexts.
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posted
^ Many modern people can't make the mental connection between the color black, dark skin, royality and divinity.
They simply don't get the that AE viewed themselves as Black, viewed their ancestors as Black, viewed their ancestors as sacred, in which the Blackness that was sacred was - within them and their Kem-ho [Black faces].
They can't see how these ideas refinforce and build on one another into a complete dialectic or ideology as denoted in colors.
However, if you ask them, how the word white can also mean fair, as in fair skinned.
And so too can mean beautiful, just and good in the western color dialectic, in which white people are called white, and therefore are implicitly beautiful and just, which in turn, can be 'seen' in their 'fair' skin....after which they proudly label themselves.... this they understand.
^ Ah, the steely death grip, of the MATRIX.
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This image where 4 characters are jetblack and if i'm not mistaken are identified as Southerners is this done symbolicly on ''purpose'' since with every external threat Kmt faced they drew ''strength'', ''credibility'' and ''power'' from the ''South''?
is there a intentional artistic connection here?
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This image where 4 characters are jetblack and if i'm not mistaken are identified as Southerners is this done symbolicly on ''purpose'' since with every external threat Kmt faced they drew ''strength'', ''credibility'' and ''power'' from the ''South''?
is there a intentional artistic connection here?
In the Tomb of Seti the Reds and the Blacks have different tones, whilst in the tomb of Ramses, the Reds and Blacks have one tone.
The iconography must convey both that there are 4 specific groups, who are then combined into 2 broader groups.
Broad and specific are mutually inclusive constructs....not mutually exclusive. So it is not either/or, but rather both.
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posted
There's no need for you to be facetious, Rasol.
I'm asking questions with an interest in learning.
The "western thinking" rhetoric is unnecessary and uncalled for.
It's not even accurate because I cannot recall an ancient civilization in Europe or current country where the name of the nation itself is a color which is also a term ascribed to their skin tone.
As far as Champollion is concerned, those scanned pages would be more helpful if they were in English.
I recall it being said from various sources that Champollion believed that "Kmt." was a racial designation to describe a nation of "Negroes".
Now I apologize if I am sounding redundant, but I am just trying to verify what is being suggested that "Kmt." actually means.
It literally means black but is it being used in reference to skin color of the people within its nation or some type of title of nobility for the nation?
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quote:Originally posted by Mansa Musa: There's no need for you to be facetious, Rasol.
I'm asking questions with an interest in learning.
We are being very patient by answering them, even when they have already been answered before in this thread.
quote:The "western thinking" rhetoric is unnecessary and uncalled for.
It's necessary because it's the real topic of this thread. How western thinking infects the minds of non white people and destroys their identity and history.
What do you imagine we're debating? Not mdw ntr per se, but rather the cognitive dissonance that occurs when Ancient Egyptian ideology is in conflict with 'western' ideology.
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quote:It's not even accurate because I cannot recall an ancient civilization in Europe or current country where the name of the nation itself is a color which is also a term ascribed to their skin tone.
tsk tsk, the above is called - "when you don't like the answer, change the question"
You asked why ancient Africans called themselves B lacks.
My facetious analogy related white peoples calling themselves white and so was precisely appropriate to your question.
And since there are so many examples of white peoples naming the lands they control after their skin color [even African lands], your attempt to change the question in order to evade the answer leads you to a dead end anyway.
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: And since there are so many examples of white peoples naming the lands they control after their skin color [even African lands], your attempt to change the question in order to evade the answer leads you to a dead end anyway.
I'm talking about their native lands in Europe.
I do not recall a single example where native Europeans named their land "White".
Infact when they labeled themselves "White" it was usually in contrast to the darker-skinned peoples they encountered outside of Europe.
The Ancient Greeks even described their Northern neighbors as "excessively white" in contrast to their darker skin tones.
As it relates to "changing the question" when I don't like the answer, my question has always been the same and the only answers I prefer are the truth.
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quote: it was usually in contrast to the darker-skinned peoples they encountered outside of Europe.
Like the AE contrasted themselves as Blacks with the lighter skinned Levantines that they referred to as Reds? Yes, we already know this...what of it?
quote:I do not recall a single example where native Europeans named their land "White".
That's because you are very poorly educated and apparently too lazy to learn. Can't recall what you don't learn to begin with, can't learn if you are lazy.
I guess you're out of luck then....
Back to the evidence you fail to address...
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:Originally posted by Mansa Musa: I can't read Egyptian Hieroglyphs. Can you provide a source that is consistent with the interpretations of the imagery you and Al Takuri have provided?
We have both repeatedly provided the source.
Unfortunately it is never addressed, as no one can refute it, so the subject is simply changed:
Jean-Francois Champollion (1790 - 1832) was said to have learned enough Greek and Latin by the time he was nine to read Homer and Vergil. He studied Persian, Ethiopic, Sanskrit, Zend, Pahlevi and Arabic, and worked on a Coptic dictionary by the time he was 19. Champollion finally found the key to translating the Rosetta Stone in 1822.
Jean Francois Champollion provided the first description of the Book of Gates.
Champollion died suddenly on 4 March 1832, in the midst of writing his great Egyptian grammar and dictionary. This was published by his brother after his death.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: I'm sorry, but if you are too lazy to even translate simple words like noires from French to English, then I can't help you.
If I can't read French then I can't read French.
This is an English speaking forum and I should not be expected to have the resources to decipher the text to get a proper understanding of the material presented.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Logical fallacy -> "Heresay",
But no argument has been presented therefore there is no fallacy.
quote:I don't address fake arguments from mystery sources with names like Various. Produce a real source.
All you're doing is trolling.
You fail to address the answers, and then you repeat the questions. Boring....
First you should acknowledge whether or not you agree with the claim.
Do you disagree with the claim? If so only then is it appropiate that I elaborate on the sources.
I was never asked for sources so it is not illogical for them to currently be ambigious.
I'll be specific in good time, but first I should know whether or not you disagree so that I am not wasting my time.
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: That's because you are very poorly educated and apparently too lazy to learn. Can't recall what you don't learn to begin with, can't learn if you are lazy.
I guess you're out of luck then....
Rather than engage in a childish tit-for-tat you could just give me reason not to be skeptical.
Insults are worthless. If your claim is true all you need is proof.
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quote:It's not even accurate because I cannot recall an ancient civilization in Europe or current country where the name of the nation itself is a color which is also a term ascribed to their skin tone.
tsk tsk, the above is called - "when you don't like the answer, change the question"
You asked why ancient Africans called themselves B lacks.
My facetious analogy related white peoples calling themselves white and so was precisely appropriate to your question.
And since there are so many examples of white peoples naming the lands they control after their skin color [even African lands], your attempt to change the question in order to evade the answer leads you to a dead end anyway.
What kind of reply is that? "white" people were not around during that time (why are you using them as reference?) he asked you a valid question no need for "tsk tsk". I also can't think of any civilization that has ever equated their nation with such a superficial identity as skin colour. You simply claim that one of the greatest early human civilizations named itself "the land of black people" and marked itself against others racially, do you realize how racial orientated this is? If anything you're degrading the Ancient Egyptians by suggesting that their society was based on ethnic colour, or "race" that you even deny exist. I'm sorry but they don't deserve this kind of unfair distortion regardless who's behind this.
rasol this is your chance to retain your respect by redrawing from this nonsensical belief of yours that Ancient Egyptians based their soceity on skin colour rather than divinity. And by this refering to Kemet as the land of the "black people" rather than beleiving in the majestic soil around the Nile which gave these people life and prosperity.
Posts: 1420 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:if anything you're degrading the Ancient Egyptians by suggesting that their society was based on ethnic colour.
^ The above is what's known as a 'tell'.
A tell is when you reveal what really drives your actions or discourse.
With the above you tell us that YOU FEEL that the fact that the AE called themselves Blacks is somehow 'degrading'.
That's what this is really about Yonis -> YOUR CATCHING FEELINGS ABOUT BEING BLACK.
Btw: I knew this from parent post, even before my reply lead you ultimately to where you are at now.
So let's go back to your original post which set off your discourse in denial:
Yonis wrote: I CANNOT ACCEPT that Africans *ever* referred to themselves as Blacks.
Again it's about YOU.
Let's discuss the real subject then.
Well of course YOU can't accept that Africans would ever refer themselves as Blacks, because YOU associate black with degradation.
That's what you just gave away. It's not about the AE, it's not Africa. It's not Blacks. It's about your self hatred.
quote:I'm sorry
Well yes, and more than you know.
quote: but they don't deserve this kind of unfair distortion regardless who's behind this.
Yes, it's the conspiracy of Champollion, and Budge and Diop, and Gardiner, and Chandler, and Amelieanou, and Lepsuius, and....
all the sources we've cited that you can't even man up and address, much less refute.
They are in fact guilty of providing accurate, insightful and meticulous translations of mdw ntr, the fallout from which apparently distresses you to no end.
And...all they had to do, is translate some 'old writings'. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
123+ posts accumulated, and still not a shred of evidence that "kmt" means "black soil". Amazing!
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: Evidence is provided and goes unaddressed. Your posts are worthless because they fail to address the evidence
What is "evidence" worth if it cannot be recognized by the jury?
I am not invalidating your evidence mind you I am just stating that I, and I am willing to bet most people posting on this board cannot read French.
quote:Really, so you don't know what les noires means in English?
And you don't know how to find out?
It's too hard for you?
In that case, your are mentally impotent, I can't help you, and our conversation is over.
It means "the black ones". But the French text on those pages are a bit more complex than one phrase now aren't they?
My question and request were simple.
Question: What context are the Ancient Egyptians using when they referred to their nation as "Kmt."?
Request: Can you provide an authoratative source for your answer?
I do not prescribe to the "Black land" theory and I understand the complexity of dialectics when it comes to themes associated with colors.
I can comprehend the usage of the color black having different meaning when showing a contrast in skintone between groups (i.e Reddish-brown Egyptians and Jet-Black Kushites), being used to group one trend in skintone from another (e.g. Blacks and Reds) or being a form of religious symbolism (e.g. King Tut's guardian statue being painted jet-black).
I am still curious as to what the AEs meant when they named their nation black.
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posted
^ Which leads Yonis back to a 3rd opportunity to address......
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Yonis by continuing to reply to this thread in and immaterial fashion, while running away from the specific comment and questions of AlTakruri, Supercar and myself, you are guilty of trolling.
We are all being very patient with you on this matter, but your non-responsive behavior is characteristic of all sore losers.
Please address the specifics at hand, or admit that you are wrong and be done with it.....
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Princess Kemsit, her name means "Black Lady":
Yonis writes: Africans *never* designated the term 'black' to themselves.
^ Yonis, don't be a sore loser. Admit that this statement is false. By not admitting this statement is false, you are openly lieing.
quote:Originally posted by Mansa Musa: What is "evidence" worth if it cannot be recognized by the jury?
Jury is French word. You don't speak french, remember?
quote:I am not invalidating your evidence mind you
Yes, but you are attempting to waste our time with posts that *do not address* the evidence. Note: I don't mind using you, and obviously your function in this thread is simply to play dumb and be used. So be it. Let's continue then... Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: Jury is French word. You don't speak french, remember?
I am not fluent in speaking or reading French is that better?
quote:Yes, but you are attempting to waste our time with posts that *do not address* the evidence. Note: I don't mind using you, and obviously your function in this thread is simply to play dumb and be used. So be it. Let's continue then...
Assuming this evidence addresses my question (as it fulfulls the request) can you provide a translation of the source or reference material where the translation can be found for English speakers? Posts: 1203 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Most here don't speak french, so some kind of translation would be appreciated unless we find people who don't speak french as "being redundant".
And also when are we going to get an excerpt of some acknowledge individual in the field who profess to the "fact" that kemet means "black people" than anything else?? Or is the untranslated french text above supposed to be the only obsticle holding us from reality?
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: Then why do you use french words, like jury?
Why are you playing games?
You know very well that if you are not fluent in a language you cannot fully comprehend a full page of its text.
quote:Yes, any French to English dictionary.
Any actual full translation of the material?
There's a big difference between getting an English bible because you cannot read the French version and translating words on your own with a dictionary.
quote:The context is ethnic.
I know it is ethnic, but what is 'black' in reference to?
Skin color?
I can fully understand that the Egyptians grouped reddish-brown people such as themselves and people they depicted as jet-black into a "Black" category, while grouping lighter-skinned Asiatics and Libyans into "Reds".
But when calling their nation "Kmt." was this ethnic label in reference to skin color?
What then did they call the nations south of them?
I will admittedly have to do more reading but as I understand it the AEs did not recognize a nation called "Nubia". That was a Roman word in reference to gold (nub) correct?
I've heard the nation south of them referred to as the kingdom of Kush and its people the Kushites but isn't that a Biblical label, which means Black?
quote:Yes, Champollion who deciphered the Rosseta Stone and whose Kemetic dictionary is the orignal and primary basis for modern transliteration of mdw ntr.
Too bad you can't address it. But I *can* repost it.
I can beat you over the head with this for as long as you like.
Yes, it's too bad I cannot fluently read French.
Can you?
Perhaps someone who can read French could post a full translation to all of the text in those pages for the non-French readers since apparently you cannot provide a source in English.
I really do want to learn, but my inability to address your source is due to language barrier and nothing else, Rasol.
Posts: 1203 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis: Most here don't speak french,
You can translate any french word to english with and english to french dictionary.
Quit your whiney excuses and just admit that you're wrong.
Stop making a fool of yourself.
quote:And also when are we going to get an excerpt of some acknowledge individual in the field who profess to the "fact" that kemet means "black people"
You already have, several in fact. Not our fault you can't refute anything and are forced to "degrade yourself" by playing dumb....
Princess Kemsit, her name means "Black Lady":
Anok Keme, I am Black and comely. Km.t [sit] femme' noires - Black Lady.
^ Not all black people hate their own skin Yonis.
Get over the self hate.
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Indeed, it also explains why MM doesn't address the answers and reduces himself to trolling. It's called -> Intellectual Bankruptcy.
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Col4: k-m.tnwt d-sh-r.tnwt AKH [Black community. Red community.
Col5: (+kh)scroll n t-nplural HQA.wplural RA [Beatification to ye subjects (of) Ra!
The "four types" -- or better, the "subjects of Ra" -- scene depicts the sun in the 5th night hour with Heru addressing the dead. He verbally divides them into the blacks (Nile Valley folk, i.e., Egyptians and Nehesis) under his protection, and the reds (folk dwelling east or west of the Nile) under Sekhet's protection.
So, in this sacred text is the prime example of KM.t and it's obviously not being applied to any silt/soil/dirt/land.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Yes. And that question too has been answered several times, just like the other ones you keep repeating.
You fail to address the answers. Therefore you are nothing but a troll.
Namecalling will not change the fact that those pages are an inadequete reference for a non-French speaker.
And I already know who Champollion is, therefore the link doesn't give any further insight into the subject.
quote:Originally posted by Supercar: Just as pointed out above, you've made the realization that categorization based on color was done on the said wall relief. And you also realize that 'black' was seen as sacred. So simply put; they refered to themselves as such, because they thought of themselves in both contexts.
OK I did not see this post before. That paints a clearer picture.
So since they viewed themselves as "black" people along with other dark-skinned people in Africa you are saying this ethnic appellative that they used for their nation was both in reference to skin color and viewing their nation as a sacred entity?
If so I am curious as to what the Egyptians called the "Kushites" in Mdu Ntr as Kush (Cush) is a Hebrew word.
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quote:Originally posted by Supercar: Just as pointed out above, you've made the realization that categorization based on color was done on the said wall relief. And you also realize that 'black' was seen as sacred. So simply put; they refered to themselves as such, because they thought of themselves in both contexts.
quote:MM writes: OK I did not see this post before. That paints a clearer picture.
Boooo! What a phony reply. The above answer has, in fact, been posted several times, and by several posters, like all the other answers.
You did not grasp it, because you are too busy trying to play the fool, and justify and essentially retarded practise of argument ad nauseum [repeating the question/ignoring the answer, trying to irritate rather than communmicate].
Don't ask any more questions until you address all the evidence cited.
If needed get yourself and AE dictionary, a Coptic dictionary, a French to English dictionary, and...above all, and English dictionary, since you seem to have your greatest difficulty with English.
But don't repeat your questions like a troll, until you are prepared to address the answers given.
Critical analysis, which is what I was doing, is not trolling.
quote:The evidenced referenced is in mdw ntr, coptic, french and english.
All of it is understandable to anyone of adequete *intelligence.*
The pages that YOU provided are in French.
I cannot read French, therefore I cannot interpret the material indepth.
At best I can get a rough translation of the words from a dictionary, which is inadequete. Find someone who knows French or ask you for an English source, which I have done.
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: Boooo! What a phony reply. The above answer has, in fact, been posted several times, and by several posters, like all the other answers.
You did not grasp it, because you are too busy trying to play the fool, and justify and essentially retarded practise of argument ad nauseum [repeating the question/ignoring the answer, trying to irritate rather than communmicate].
If I am irritating you to the point where you resort to mindless insults rather than discussion then that is a reflection of your lack of self-control.
If you had not gone into a defensive mode throughout this dialogue the answers to my questions would have been more clear.
If that is all I will research the subject on my own time and find an authoratative source that is actually in a language I understand.
Posts: 1203 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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you were doing so well by sticking to the troll tactic of repeating questions and ignoring answers.
but then you made a mistake:
you made and actual claim, regarding "critical thining" you'd done, and data you'd gathered, yet, you don't seem to be able to readily produce it. why is that?
it's starting to look like you haven't actually done your homework, MM.
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posted
Also, I'm sure you've learned at least a bit of a new language. If so, you would know that often-times interpretation does-NOT come out word for word, or with the intended meaning.
That being the case he might have to thoroughly explain why he picked certain words which would caust time and energy he just might not feel like spending.
So is it right that he do for you what you don't feel like doing for your-self?
I just translated a couple paragraphs plus two double-sided spanish recipees almost a month ago. Don't let being around so many well-to-do, lazy, americans slow you down! Don't get me wrong, I can be the most lazy and un-motivated person in the world. No joke. I'm just analyzing the situation. Also, sometimes, especially when it's FOR a PURPOSE YOU CARE ABOUT ([b]like right-now YOU) , persistance and hard work should be easy to bring out of yourself.
quote:The M&M's again: It's not even accurate because I cannot recall an ancient civilization in Europe or current country where the name of the nation itself is a color which is also a term ascribed to their skin tone.
So??^
rasol already refuted this, but...
Oh, I forgot, :"only Europeans can invent, and since they didn't, how could ancient egyptians call a COUNTRY a color?"
Also, I thought the term being discussed was the ethnic one that connected the africans, the children of Heru. The Nation they named doesn't seem as relevant because the Nation didn't include all africans. You know, another Nation was Taseti, "The land of the bow".
However, they still grouped themselves with other africans when they called them black, they just HAAPPENED to call their nation this also, because the color was held SO HIGHLY. This just comes as a major slap in the face to the ever so popularracist egyptology and it's followers.
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