posted
Amen = "concealed, hidden, unknowable..." Amen (Amon/Amun) represented the only God in Ancient Egyptian philosophy, which was Monotheistic. Amen was transcendent: that which is beyond our senses and experience; Existing apart from matter; Exalted above the universe; Above and beyond the ordinary, the concrete, and the tangible. The form of God was not even known to the ancestors or saints (ntru/"gods") and reflected the philosophy of the Kememou; Amen, the hidden, unknowable Noute or God itself...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Wally: Amen = "concealed, hidden, unknowable..." Amen (Amon/Amun) represented the only God in Ancient Egyptian philosophy, which was Monotheistic. Amen was transcendent: that which is beyond our senses and experience; Existing apart from matter; Exalted above the universe; Above and beyond the ordinary, the concrete, and the tangible. The form of God was not even known to the ancestors or saints (ntru/"gods") and reflected the philosophy of the Kememou; Amen, the hidden, unknowable Noute or God itself...
Very nice, But can you consider Amen an holy spirit then, After all he is the hidden one
Posts: 77 | From: AMSTERDAM | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by PEPI_KHEM: Who can help me with this question
thanks allready
Amen, in ancient Hebrew meant something similar to Verily or Truly. It is just an expression of affirmation and has nothing to do with Amen the Egyptian god.
Posts: 354 | From: Atlanta, GA | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Mustafino: Amen, in ancient Hebrew meant something similar to Verily or Truly. It is just an expression of affirmation and has nothing to do with Amen the Egyptian god.
Rubbish! A) the Mdu Ntr is the parent language, Hebrew is the child language; the Mdu Ntr existed long before there were anybody known as Hebrews. Many words originally Mdu Ntr would later enter Hebrew...
B) Amen is a word that means "Hidden, concealed, unknowable..."
This "Verily" and "Truly" is just one of those made up things. You can verify this in the Christian Bibles themselves:
GWT: "To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: The amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the source of God's creation, says: (GOD'S WORD®)
KJV: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
ASV: And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:
BBE: And to the angel of the church in Laodicea say: These things says the true and certain witness (ie, the Amen), the head of God's new order:
DBY: And to the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: These things says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God-:
WEY: "And to the minister of the Church at Laodicea write as follows: "'This is what the Amen says--the true and faithful witness, the Beginning and Lord of God's Creation.
WBS: And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
WEB: "To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: "The Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Head of God's creation, says these things:
YLT: 'And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness -- the faithful and true -- the chief of the creation of God;
...now, think about and grasp what you've just discovered...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I'm not sure why some find it a mystery the prospect that ancient Hebrews would borrow from the Nile Valley, considering the fact that they are Afrasan speakers, and that they, themsleves, spoke of a history that takes them back to the Nile Valley.
Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mustafino: Amen, in ancient Hebrew meant something similar to Verily or Truly. It is just an expression of affirmation and has nothing to do with Amen the Egyptian god.
Rubbish! A) the Mdu Ntr is the parent language, Hebrew is the child language; the Mdu Ntr existed long before there were anybody known as Hebrews. Many words originally Mdu Ntr would later enter Hebrew...
B) Amen is a word that means "Hidden, concealed, unknowable..."
Hardly. It was already in the Hebrew lexicon way before the Christian Bible and it was used in every day language.
Revelations was written during the days of Jesus, and isn't even from someone that met the dude. He borrowed from a lot of religions. No where else in the Bible do you see Tiamat, or THE Amen, etc.
Posts: 354 | From: Atlanta, GA | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
The correct usage of the christian and judaio faiths is "AMIN" not AMEN. It is said AMEN in english and some other languages in Hebrew/aramaic/greek....AMIN.
AMOUN is closer to the lay Greek term for Vagina.
Posts: 104 | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
Modern usage can mean different things, but to the Hebrews it meant Truth, or Verily. To claim it means Unknowable, clashes directly with its usage.
Posts: 354 | From: Atlanta, GA | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Mustafino: Amen, in ancient Hebrew meant something similar to Verily or Truly. It is just an expression of affirmation and has nothing to do with Amen the Egyptian god.
Rubbish! A) the Mdu Ntr is the parent language, Hebrew is the child language; the Mdu Ntr existed long before there were anybody known as Hebrews. Many words originally Mdu Ntr would later enter Hebrew...
B) Amen is a word that means "Hidden, concealed, unknowable..."
This "Verily" and "Truly" is just one of those made up things. You can verify this in the Christian Bibles themselves:
GWT: "To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: The amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the source of God's creation, says: (GOD'S WORD®)
KJV: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
ASV: And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:
BBE: And to the angel of the church in Laodicea say: These things says the true and certain witness (ie, the Amen), the head of God's new order:
DBY: And to the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: These things says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God-:
WEY: "And to the minister of the Church at Laodicea write as follows: "'This is what the Amen says--the true and faithful witness, the Beginning and Lord of God's Creation.
WBS: And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
WEB: "To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: "The Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Head of God's creation, says these things:
YLT: 'And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness -- the faithful and true -- the chief of the creation of God;
...now, think about and grasp what you've just discovered...
Very nice Wally, But i still have not any good answer to my question, So i will ask it again
whas ''AMEN'' a god or holy spirit, Considered that he whas the hidden one but still in presence of the people who worshipped him
Posts: 77 | From: AMSTERDAM | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by PEPI_KHEM: Very nice Wally, But i still have not any good answer to my question, So i will ask it again
whas ''AMEN'' a god or holy spirit, Considered that he whas the hidden one but still in presence of the people who worshipped him
With due respect, I have given you the answer to your question already:
quote: Amen = "concealed, hidden, unknowable..." Amen (Amon/Amun) represented the only God in Ancient Egyptian philosophy, which was Monotheistic. Amen was transcendent: that which is beyond our senses and experience; Existing apart from matter; Exalted above the universe; Above and beyond the ordinary, the concrete, and the tangible. The form of God was not even known to the ancestors or saints (ntru/"gods") and reflected the philosophy of the Kememou; Amen, the hidden, unknowable Noute or God itself...
It may not be the answer you're looking for, but it is the answer: Amen was neither a 'god' (venerated ancestor) or a 'holy spirit', Amen was a name for God (the Hidden One).
This was carried over into the later Hebrew and used as an abstraction as well; after a chapter in the Christian bible ended it was 'signatured' with the word "Amen", which basically meant 'God'...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
How logical is it to state that even though the 2 words sound the same,and that the kemetic tongue is older, that the hebrews spent 400 years in kemit, yet one has nothing to do with the other.
dude you just disagreeing for the sake of argument
quote:Originally posted by PEPI_KHEM: Very nice Wally, But i still have not any good answer to my question, So i will ask it again
whas ''AMEN'' a god or holy spirit, Considered that he whas the hidden one but still in presence of the people who worshipped him
With due respect, I have given you the answer to your question already:
quote: Amen = "concealed, hidden, unknowable..." Amen (Amon/Amun) represented the only God in Ancient Egyptian philosophy, which was Monotheistic. Amen was transcendent: that which is beyond our senses and experience; Existing apart from matter; Exalted above the universe; Above and beyond the ordinary, the concrete, and the tangible. The form of God was not even known to the ancestors or saints (ntru/"gods") and reflected the philosophy of the Kememou; Amen, the hidden, unknowable Noute or God itself...
It may not be the answer you're looking for, but it is the answer: Amen was neither a 'god' (venerated ancestor) or a 'holy spirit', Amen was a name for God (the Hidden One).
This was carried over into the later Hebrew and used as an abstraction as well; after a chapter in the Christian bible ended it was 'signatured' with the word "Amen", which basically meant 'God'...
quote:Originally posted by neokem: How logical is it to state that even though the 2 words sound the same,and that the kemetic tongue is older, that the hebrews spent 400 years in kemit, yet one has nothing to do with the other.
dude you just disagreeing for the sake of argument
Very logical. Homophones are words that sound the same but are spelt differently. Homonyms are also words that sound the same but which are spelt the same. However they have different meanings. They occur over many time ranges with one predating the other.
One, they are spelled based on different languages so we can't even assume they are homonyms. And they were used differently in the ancient Hebrew language. If I say, "I really think these people are idiots", and you say "Amen", you are not saying, "The God Amen" or "The Hidden One," but "Truly" or "True." That is how the ancient Hebrews used it.
Posts: 354 | From: Atlanta, GA | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by neokem: HA! he said "spelt" And being that this is an ancient Kemetic forum Which word do you think he was asking about? "spelt" you made me laugh this morning..thanx
Considering I don't worry to much about my grammar on a message board, did you have a point? Would it have made you happier if I had put spelled? He was asking about the Christian Amen ASSUMING a link with the Egyptian Amen. He was wrong.
Posts: 354 | From: Atlanta, GA | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
Quoting the Greek Scriptures is a poor method for elucidating a Hebrew word, nor do Pharaonic Egyptic and Canaanitic Hebrew enjoy a parent child relationship.
Pharaonic Egyptian and Canaanitic Hebrew are two different languages though of the same superphylum, Afrisan.
Egyptic and Semitic are Afrisan subphyla. The former being one of its oldest separations while the latter is one of its youngest.
While those two are Afrisan siblings, Canaanitic Hebrew is only a Semitic family member, thus it's impossible for it to be a child of Pharaonic Egyptic.
But, yes, biblical Hebrew has borrowed many words from Pharaonic Egyptic. However, amen is not such an infusion.
The Egyptian ntjr Amen has nothing to do with the Hebrew word '-M-N, derived from the Hebrew words '-M-TH and '-M-W-N-H.
Since Pepi wants to learn about the ntjr Amen, I see no need to once again post the meaning of the Hebrew word amen equally misused by Christian and Afrocentric.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Why is it so hard to accept that the Hebrew Amen is different from the Egyptian Amen. True that Egyptian 'amen' means hiddden, so why say "hidden" at the end of prayer? It makes no sense. Rather the Hebrew meaning sounds more accurate.
Now no one is saying that there hasn't been any cultural or linguistic exchange between the ancient Hebrews and ancient Egyptians, but this doesn't seem to be one of them.
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote: AlTakruri wrote: Quoting the Greek Scriptures is a poor method for elucidating a Hebrew word, nor do Pharaonic Egyptic and Canaanitic Hebrew enjoy a parent child relationship.
They definitely do have this relationship. I am not talking about a 'paternal' kinship, rather that Pharaonic Egyptian is the older of the two languages and has also heavily influenced the later Hebrew...
quote: Djehuti wrote: Why is it so hard to accept that the Hebrew Amen is different from the Egyptian Amen. True that Egyptian 'amen' means hiddden, so why say "hidden" at the end of prayer? It makes no sense. Rather the Hebrew meaning sounds more accurate.
It isn't hard to accept simply because the Hebrew 'Amen' is derived from the Mdu Ntr: Here's an example of how this works; In the Mdu Ntr (and in Coptic), the words "Kushi", "Ekushi", "Thoshi", "Ethoshi" ALL mean essentially the same thing "frontiersman, Kushite, foreign Blacks, One who lives beyond our border, etc." Whether or not these terms were derived from the great Kingdom of Kush or it was the Kememou's description of those on Kemet's frontier/border is a question of 'the chicken or the egg.' (the same can be said of the word "Noub", were the peoples of this area named after the designation for it, or the area named after the peoples' own self-description?) The term "Kushi" entered the Hebrew language and even today, it means "Negro", and it is said to be derived because of the ancient Hebrew respect for this civilization (Kushite). There are other words, many, that are derived from the Mdu Ntr and used in Hebrew; ie., Hmom = hot, Shem = small, little, Kem = black, and so on. Amen is a name for God, just as one of the oldest Mdu Ntr words for God is "Yah", a word probably used before the pyramid age! Would one be puzzled that the later Hebrews would use the word "Yahweh" for God?...Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Mustafino: Amen in ancient Hebrew meant something similar to Verily or Truly. It is just an expression of affirmation and has nothing to do with Amen the Egyptian god.
I thought that was how it was used 2day, a recent invention. Like 'Fo real.
quote:Mustafio: Modern usage can mean different things, but to the Hebrews it meant Truth, or Verily. To claim it means Unknowable, clashes directly with its usage.
^Not Really. Can't the knowledge of the ultimate truth be un-knowable?
Step out-side the boundaries of your usual system of thought. Free-Yourself!
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
There is a better way to look at it; let us translate and substitute for the word "Amen" using the different points of view/interpretations:
quote: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Truly, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
quote: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Verily, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
quote: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Hidden One, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
...now, which one sounds more literate, correct?...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Wally: There is a better way to look at it; let us translate and substitute for the word "Amen" using the different points of view/interpretations:
quote: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Truly, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
quote: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Verily, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
quote: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Hidden One, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
...now, which one sounds more literate, correct?...
Substitute Truth, instead. It works just fine.
Posts: 354 | From: Atlanta, GA | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Technical Anomaly (What Box):
quote:Mustafio: Modern usage can mean different things, but to the Hebrews it meant Truth, or Verily. To claim it means Unknowable, clashes directly with its usage.
^Not Really. Can't the knowledge of the ultimate truth be un-knowable?
Step out-side the boundaries of your usual system of thought. Free-Yourself!
Not when you are using it as an affirmation nice try.
Posts: 354 | From: Atlanta, GA | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Technical Anomaly (What Box):
quote:Mustafio: Modern usage can mean different things, but to the Hebrews it meant Truth, or Verily. To claim it means Unknowable, clashes directly with its usage.
^Not Really. Can't the knowledge of the ultimate truth be un-knowable?
Step out-side the boundaries of your usual system of thought. Free-Yourself!
Not when you are using it as an affirmation nice try.
I wasn't talking abuot it's meaning in Hebrew. I was just showing a possible connection.
quote:Originally posted by Mustafino: ...Substitute Truth, instead. It works just fine.
I love to talk to 'religious' folk, and whenever they come up with the rote statement about "Amen," I always spring the quote from Revelations on them, and then I watch them squirm mentally for a rationale to make their idea of "Amen" meaning truly or verily fit their ideology. (If you really want to see a "christian" squirm; point out the passage in Matthew, where Jesus says he came to earth not to bring peace but war/a revolution!)
quote: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things say the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God
"Christians" pretend that they cannot read a sentence correctly, if it doesn't conform to their rote learning:
"The Amen"; this statement referring to "Amen" is preceded by the article "the" which is specific in that "Amen" is the subject; it then proceeds to tell us that;
1) the subject "Amen", is a faithful and true witness and 2) "Amen" is the beginning of the creation of God it is obvious that we're talking about an entity!
Now, if we were to be or pretend to be stupid, we can say that "Truth" is this 'entity.' Christian/Biblical BS
But the beautiful thing about all of this is that the topic regarding the Kememou "Amen" and what/who it was, wasn't even related to the Bible or Christianity; it was related to Kemet. And PEPI_KHEM seems satisfied with the answer to his question. Christians, go pray...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
The fact of the matter is, that in this instance at least, the Greek Scriptures are giving an accurate followup in using true and faithful to define amen (whatever they may mean by "the amen," presumably a personalization, is beyond me and has nothing in the slightest to do with either the Hebrew language or Hebrew theology).
All idealogy and religion aside, and based entirely on linguistics (which will never agree to a parent - child relationship between languages of two different subphyla), the Hebrew word '-M-N is related to the two Hebrew words '-M-TH (which means true) and '-M-W-N-H (meaning faithful). Regardless as to who likes or doesn't like it, for whatever personal reasons, those are the linguistic facts no sophistry can alter. All the rest amounts to no more than biased opinion and supposition.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: The fact of the matter is that, in this instance at least, the Greek Scriptures are giving an accurate followup in using true and faithful to define amen.
All idealogy and religion aside and based entirely on linguistics (which will never agree to a parent child relationship between languages of two different subphyla) the Hebrew word '-M-N is related to the two Hebrew words '-M-TH (which means true) and '-M-W-N-H (meaning faithful). Regardless as to who doesn't like it, for whatever personal reasons, those are the facts no sophistry can change. All the resy is no more than biased opinion and supposition.
This has absolutely nothing to do with the question posed by the topic! There is nothing here that talks or questions about the g...... Hebrews! It is a question about the use and meaning of the term "Amen/Amon/Amun" in the culture of the Kememou! What is so difficult about understanding this?? This is NOT a discussion about the M........... Hebrews!!! Amen in Hebrew can mean S... for what it's worth. Amen in the Mdu Ntr means "hidden, concealed, unknowable"; that was the question... Amen is the Kememou name for God, the unknowable, the hidden one, the concealed...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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