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Originally posted by Obelisk_18:

... why does Amun necessarily have to be a nubian god? couldnt he have just been a little known local theban god who rose to prominence due to that city being the capital of egypt during the Middle Kingdom? And unless theres proof that "Amun" is a loan word from nubian languages, I really dont see how Amun could be anything but local .

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Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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The First ram created by the World's First Mother
did not die like other animals. Some day, it went
so up that he ended up to hit the rising sun with
its horns. The sun ball became hanged to the ram's
horns that had been sticked up to it, and since
then, the ram turns on with the sun. Formerly,
there existed a rock engraving above of the
village of Hdizer. One could well see, in front
of this ram, a man bowing down, who, like other
humans, was imploring the gods to know the precise
dates of sowings and harvests. But nowadays, one
can only see a few remains of this painting, since
when the Great Glacial stages occurred on Earth,
the World's First Mother had not been the only one
to perish; Even the rocky cliffs had been damaged.
And every winter going by, the coldness damages a
bit more this rock engraving depicting the world's
first ram.

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code:

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Egyptian 		   Ghadames (Eastern Tamazic)
b3 "ram"		   zr "sheep, ram"
ta-bali "ewe"      a-djur "he-goat"

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Posts: 307 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:

Since as pointed out above the author of the
pictures of sphere-headdresses worn by cattle,
("Jean-Loïc Le Quellec (2001), "Les Arts
Graphiques du
Sahara et de l'Egypte Ancienne, que comparer?",
in J. Cervello Autuori (ed.), Africa Antigua, El
Antiguo Egipto, una civilizacion Africana, Madrid:
Aula Aegyptiaca, pp.159-178; 288-293"), are not
definitely sun-disks

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quote:

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Also note that Théophile Obenga's claim of
a fortuitous similarity between Amazigh &
Kemetic solarized rams allegedly not supported
by lexicon (Th. Obenga (1993), Origine commune
de l'égyptien ancien, du copte et des langues
négro-africaines modernes : introduction à la
linguistique historique africaine,
Paris : L'Harmattan, p.268), the
iconographical/religious similarity can be
supported by comparative linguistics.

From G. Takacs (1999), Etymological Dictionary
of Egyptian, Vol.I: a Phonological Introduction,
Leiden: Brill, p.184, and
From G. Takacs (2001), Etymological Dictionary
of Egyptian, Vol. II: "b, p, f", p.23

code:

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Egyptian 		   Ghadames (Eastern Tamazic)
b3 "ram"		   zr "sheep, ram"
ta-bali "ewe"      a-djur "he-goat"

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quote:

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So a first conclusion on the above, would be that
the similarity between the solarized rams in
Tamazgha (Berbery) & Kemet, if were actually cognates, were the result of a spread of Kemetic
ideas and/or people to Tamazgha, or a common
Saharan heritage, or an Amazigh introduction via
t3 NHsj that would have taken place after Kerma's
colonization.

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Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
I'm currently reading Ivan GUERMEUR's thesis "Les cultes d'Amon hors de Thèbes" and Claude RILLY's book "La langue du royaume de Meroé", and both of those guys seem to claim that Amun originated in Egypt and then spread to "Nubia". I don't know what else than the "traditional" theory GUERMEUR is relying on to claim this. RILLY only goes on saying that Meroitic */Aman(a)i/ (resembles MK Egyptian */Amana/, the first being a borrowing from the latter; that Assyrian texts also transcribe Egyptian Amun's name as /amunu/, and Kushite Amun as /Amanie/.

I don't get how we can draw from the above evidence that Meroitic borrowed Amun's name from NK Egyptian.

Maybe RILLY is assuming from the abundant proto Meroitic name lists notably the one from Crocodilopolis, which show similar anthroponyms and theonyms to Napata/Meroe's names but where Amun's name is totally absent in contrast with the Napata/Meroe data. If so, I would concur with him on it until counter evidence is presented.

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Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
Yonis:
Aren't there equivalents of Arabic name "Amin" and its variants in Somali?

Clyde Winters:
Do you think that "Amnp" could refer to a particular hypostasis of Amun/Aman from textual evidence? Don't you think there were linguistically expressed distinctions between Amun of Napata and Thebes in Meroitic texts?

Also, to my mind the horned disk stuff could be a feature later found into Amun's iconography without being a proof of the worship of Amun at this time... Do you see what I mean?

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Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
Thanks Djehuti for the Amma=mother precision.

Clyde Winters:
Do you have extra-linguistic evidence supporting the Amun/ Dravidian Amma's connection?

Perhaps we could set up a list of the probable candidates for the origin of Amun and weigh in the arguments against/for these theories.

Something like:

-Pan-Saharan: found in Egyptian, Kushite, Berber, AND Dogon, assuming that there have been no dynastic contacts between Dynastic AE and Dogon people (sun-disk headed creator god creating 8 primordial deities from the primordial waters some of them being identical with Seth & Osiris, their functions & mythology, etc.; the name Amma resembles the Egyptian 'Imn, although I need to check if the two are linguistically cognates since it was a claim made by Th.OBENGA and I more or less recently discovered that he usually doesn't check phonetic correspondences to establish his "cognates");

-Berber origin: The Siwa oracle was held in high esteem by Greeks; some Berber ancient ethnic groups have the "Amon" element in their ethnonym; The Amun God wore head-feathers and so did Ancient Berbers known to Egyptians, this was a Libyan deity.

More to come...

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Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
Djehuti:
I'll scan some pics of it and post them on here tomorrow.
The wearing of sun disks by animals found in Saharan art seems to be a common pan-neteru (found among so many Dynastic deities) feature and thus the evidence of a common cultural feature shared by AE and Ancient Saharans, so the existence of these depictions don't provide any evidence of the origin of Amun proper IMO.

Perhaps I didn't gather enough known evidence for the Berber origin of Amun but this theory really seems fragile to me...

-The Greek's interest for the Siwa temple over other Amun cults can be explained by being built the building of the temple by Amasis who had a well known relationship with the Greek word and is even assumed by some scholars like SALL Babacar to have been a descendant of Libya-settled Greek mercenaries;
-The element -amon- found in North African ethnonyms "Garamantes", Nasamonians" isn't relevant until one finds these elements are more than a similar phonetic combination;
-Feathers are found among individuals and deities that aren't thought to be Libyan, while allegedly Libyan deities aren't most of the time shown wearing feathers, etc.

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Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
Having taken a (brief) look at the various Meroitic words I came across back from earliest supposed attestations, it seemed to me that the only Meroitic words combining two different nasal consonants were borrowings to other languages or words based on the Amun name so I wonder if there wasn't any phonemic restriction which wouldn't have allowed a native etymology for Aman-i in Meroitic. It needs further research, of course, but if confirmed, it would mean that Amun's name wasn't a (Proto,Pre,or whatever) Meroitic one.

As for the Berber origin hypothesis, Berber doesn't seem to have such a restriction since I remember reading some Berberocentrist guy claiming that Egyptian Amun was derived from Berber Aman "water".

Djehuti:
I have scanned the pics somewhere but my computer can't read those documents. Wouldn't you or anybody here else mind PM me their e-mail & upload the pics on here?

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Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
^^
I haven't yet pronounced myself on this issue because I have yet to read more on this, notably very reliable Senegalese Egyptologist Babacar SALL's thesis "Amon de Kouch". Anyway, from the present stage of my knowledge, here is my take...

First off, as I said above the Berber hypothesis actually seems bogus to me. VYCICHL seems to be a proponent of this, claiming that *-mm-n was the original form of the Egyptian/Berber name of the god, that only later simplified in some Egyptian dialects, Thebes being one of them. It would be interesting to note that this hypothesis discredits the Berberocentrist claim about Nasamon & Garamantes being references to the deity.

Anyway, I think that in many linguistic respects, that VYCICHL's point about -mm-n being the original Egyptian form has no foundation. The deity is not associated with Libya until Late Dynastic times and Libya was adjacent with Egypt, so I guess it's pure conjecture to claim that Amun (with the combination of its iconographical, cultual, mythological, linguistic features found in the Dynastic period) was originally a Libyan God.

For reasons pointed above, I tend to believe that the name of Kushite Amani/Amun wasn't derived from (Proto) Meroitic although my opinion so far would be that it originated among populations from the South of Egypt linguistically related to AEgyptians.

The only substantial evidence of a Pan-Saharan connection would be the recurrence of the disk-headed ovine which according to the authors of the book I posted above are unlikely to represent "sun disks". And even admitting , this I don't see anything in this that is more than a feature common to deities, just like the "was scepter" was, not something peculiar to Amun.

The Dogon Amma & its peculiar features combined with other aspects of Dogon culture really appear to me to be extractions from Dynastic Egyptian culture.

So my take would be Amun originating from Upper Egypt and areas south of it (but not from (Proto) Kushite people), then spreading in different respects to Kush, Libya , West Africa, etc.

I'm not saying that features of Proto Amun whether they were iconographical, cultual, mythological or linguistic didn't exist before but the very combo of these features appeared long after the Pan Saharan Era IMO.

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Originally posted by Agluza:
I learnt from RILLY that when pre NK Egyptian texts do mention the name of the equivalent of Amun in Kerma (like with Sebiumeker/Osiris posted in another thread), it is always "Kasa~KaSa",but never "Imn" or a similar form, so I take it that is not likely that Pre-New Kingdom Egyptians were identifying their Amun with a deity with a similar name from t3-nHsi.

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Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
Another possible etymological source for Ammonian Ammon would be the following.

Early XXth century French Historian Stéphane Gsell (S. Gsell (1920):Histoire ancienne de l'Afrique du Nord. Tome I, Les conditions du développement historique, les temps primitifs, la colonisation phénicienne et l'empire de Carthage,Paris:Hachette, pp.312-313) listed a certain number of Ancient Native North African words reported by Greco-Latin travelers. While some of those words may have been Punic or even sometimes European, some have been identified as similar to some modern Tamazic words. One of the reported words is ammon "ram" and I must have missed something because I have a hard time believing that so many scholars did not notice it.

Do you guys know if it has already been mentioned by scholars in relation to Siwan theonym Ammon?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
Since as pointed out above the author of the
pictures of sphere-headdresses worn by cattle,
("Jean-Loïc Le Quellec (2001), "Les Arts
Graphiques du
Sahara et de l'Egypte Ancienne, que comparer?",
in J. Cervello Autuori (ed.), Africa Antigua, El
Antiguo Egipto, una civilizacion Africana, Madrid:
Aula Aegyptiaca, pp.159-178; 288-293"), are not
definitely sun-disks, it seems that to my
knowledge, only a few cultures do have attested
rams wearing sun disks proper as headdresses.

That would be:
-The Dogon people of modern Mali, whose supreme
being Ama (also called Amma) is said to be wearing
a calabash between its horns. Senegalese Egyptologist
Aboubacry Moussa Lam (1997), Les Chemins du Nil/ Les
relations entre l'Egypte ancienne et l'Afrique Noire,
Paris: Présence Africaine, Khepera , p.107 cited French
Ethnologist Marcel Griaule saying that the calabash
symbolizing the sun.

-The Kabyles, since one of their tales recorded
by Frobenius (L. Frobenius (1995), Contes Kabyles,
Tome I: Sagesse, Aix-en-Provence : Edisud, p.45),
entitled "The Origin of Sheeps and the division of
the year". Here is a translation of the last words
of the tale.

quote:

---

The First ram created by the World's First Mother
did not die like other animals. Some day, it went
so up that he ended up to hit the rising sun with
its horns. The sun ball became hanged to the ram's
horns that had been sticked up to it, and since
then, the ram turns on with the sun. Formerly,
there existed a rock engraving above of the
village of Hdizer. One could well see, in front
of this ram, a man bowing down, who, like other
humans, was imploring the gods to know the precise
dates of sowings and harvests. But nowadays, one
can only see a few remains of this painting, since
when the Great Glacial stages occurred on Earth,
the World's First Mother had not been the only one
to perish; Even the rocky cliffs had been damaged.
And every winter going by, the coldness damages a
bit more this rock engraving depicting the world's
first ram.

---

Also note that Théophile Obenga's claim of
a fortuitous similarity between Amazigh &
Kemetic solarized rams allegedly not supported
by lexicon (Th. Obenga (1993), Origine commune
de l'égyptien ancien, du copte et des langues
négro-africaines modernes : introduction à la
linguistique historique africaine,
Paris : L'Harmattan, p.268), the
iconographical/religious similarity can be
supported by comparative linguistics.

From G. Takacs (1999), Etymological Dictionary
of Egyptian, Vol.I: a Phonological Introduction,
Leiden: Brill, p.184, and
From G. Takacs (2001), Etymological Dictionary
of Egyptian, Vol. II: "b, p, f", p.23

code:

---

Egyptian 		   Ghadames (Eastern Tamazic)
b3 "ram"		   zr "sheep, ram"
ta-bali "ewe"      a-djur "he-goat"

---

So a first conclusion on the above, would be that
the similarity between the solarized rams in
Tamazgha (Berbery) & Kemet, if were actually
cognates, were the result of a spread of Kemetic
ideas and/or people to Tamazgha, or a common
Saharan heritage, or an Amazigh introduction via
t3 NHsj that would have taken place after Kerma's
colonization.

Some possibly relevant data to this post can be found here:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=15&t=000995#000002
or into Claude Rilly's paper here (about alledged Amazigh presence in the
Middle Nile Valley):
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=005330;p=2

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Posts: 307 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged |