quote:Originally posted by Obenga: There have been 100 meter world and olympic finals where regardless of what nation they are representing all 8 men are of west african descent.
Could it be more social than genetic? Growing up as a kid we mostly play running games football, basketball, freeze, you're it and more.
Later when I had white friends the games were socially different. Board games, rockets, model planes and cars and more.
Posts: 342 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Obenga: There have been 100 meter world and olympic finals where regardless of what nation they are representing all 8 men are of west african descent.
Could it be more social than genetic? Growing up as a kid we mostly play running games football, basketball, freeze, you're it and more.
Later when I had white friends the games were socially different. Board games, rockets, model planes and cars and more.
That cant account for every running record being held by an athlete of african ancestry...which is the case.
That also cant account for blacks of west african ancestry being the only link among these guys of various cultural/national backgrounds with various different training techniques and dietary schemes.....the link for the sprinters is one single thing......west african ancestry.
the most common (public) explanation for this phenomenon is that blacks are socialized to excel at these events. Really? You mean to say that out of a country of approximately 260 million, where blacks make up only 12% of the population, in which there are 5-6 times more whites than blacks, that there are no white guys who excel at these activities? Furthermore, you never see an Asian (American or otherwise) competing in the higher echelon of these sports. Nor do you see any Hispanics or Latinos in these events. Granted, socialization may explain, in part, the apparent dominance of blacks in football or basketball, but this explanation is sorely inadequate when it comes to running.
Everyone can run, and it doesn't matter whether you are in China, Russia, or the US You don't need any special equipment and it doesn't require any specialized skills. Because of the ubiquity of running, one would expect somewhat proportional representation among all races or groups of people in world class competition (e.g., Olympics). That, of course, is based on the premise that all races have equal capacities for running fast. Yet, the reality is that one group, blacks, win nearly every sprint race. Whites will on occasion win (Valeri Borzov of the former Soviet Union won the 100m and 200m dash at the 1972 Olympics). However, Asians will, in our humble opinion, never be competitive with black Americans in world class sprinting. The idea that blacks are socialized to excel in sprints is disputable in that many of these black athletes come from countries other than the United States. Are blacks from the United Kingdom, the Caribbean, and West Africa also "socialized" to run fast?
In other sports we can talk of access, finances and socialization. Running is something universal and simple across the world. There are far, far more white sprinters in the USA than black ones in HS track.....the black ones of west african ancestry rise to the top of american sprinting invariably and have all the sprint records despite blacks being only 12-13% of the population.
39 years ago jim hines broke the 10 second barrier.......someone explain how in all those yaers later ONLY BLACK MALES OF WEST AFRICAN ANCESTRY have been able to duplicate that feat. Even with all kinds of drugs being used in the sport still only those males of west african ancestry have done it.
For 20 years East Germany failed to produce a single sub-10-sec. runner despite handpicking its most athletic children, nurturing them with the best coaching and pumping them with steroids.
I'm open to useful suggestions outside of the genetic one.....I just have not seen one yet.....males of west african ancestry arent the only guys with good coaching who work intensely hard to run fast.
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Obenga, I noticed you pointed out the West African athletes but what about those from East Africa like the Kenyan runners?
Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Djehuti, Are the East Africans better because of higher elevation? Higher elevation has less air and the heart and lungs must work more effeciently. I've heard that before
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Obenga, I noticed you pointed out the West African athletes but what about those from East Africa like the Kenyan runners?
I made the point of point out population because it's important....as i said in an earlier post in the thread, the sprint phenomena is a specific trait we see with the west african population so it's obviously not a "black" thing, it's a west african thing.
Science certainly does not support the popular notion that Kenyans prevail in distance running because they train harder or run huge distances as kids - myths frequently peddled by the media.
For every Kenyan athlete who runs 100 miles a week, there are others who get along on 30, and did not regularly run extraordinary distances as children. 'I lived right next door to school,' laughs Kenyan-born Wilson Kipketer, world 800m record holder. 'I walked, nice and slow.'
Though individual success is indeed largely about opportunity and 'fire in the belly', when it comes to the patterns that we see in sports, genetic traits proscribe possibility. While a driven Kenyan could potentially transform himself into a decent sprinter in spite of having the ideal genetically endowed body type of a distance runner, thousands of years of evolution have left a distinct footprint.
'Kenyans and other East Africans are born with a high number of slow-twitch fibers,' notes Saltin, who outlined his widely-embraced findings in a cover story, 'Muscles and Genes', in Scientific American last year2. The bio-cultural epicenter for world-class distance running - where evolutionary factors and social conditions come together in a feedback loop - is the Great Rift Valley adjacent to Lake Victoria.
This is home to the Kalenjin, a loosely named population of 1.5 million people, who win almost 40% of major international distance events. One tiny district, the Nandi, with only 500,000 people - one-twelve-thousandth of the planet's population - sweeps an unfeasible 20% of such races.
While Kenyans and other East Africans hold more than 60% of the worlds top endurance times, athletes of West African ancestry, including most North American, British and Caribbean blacks, are among the world's worst distance runners. The ectomorphic body type so common among East Africans is not very common in whites and is almost non-existent in those with roots in West Africa.
posted
Then what about Andes and Himalaya folk? Are there track records for them that would bear out elevation and thin air as the factors? Or is the plataeu not the mountain that does it?
quote:Originally posted by blackman: Djehuti, Are the East Africans better because of higher elevation? Higher elevation has less air and the heart and lungs must work more effeciently. I've heard that before
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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There was a news article I read a while back that talked about how some people from the Ethiopian highlands have physiologically adapted to high altitudes.
Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Genetics is probably the reason Europeans dominate in power lifting and swimming.....there are probably all kinds of athletic events that will give some populations an advantage over others.
I think it has more to due with height and strength. Work=(Force)x(Distance) All power lifters are short in height. They have to perform less work. We will probably never see a tall power lifter unless he/she is a freak of nature.
posted
''I think it has more to due with height and strength. Work=(Force)x(Distance) All power lifters are short in height. They have to perform less work. We will probably never see a tall power lifter unless he/she is a freak of nature.''
Yes.
And surely genes are the constructing agent in this short stature.
The last time I checked genes hang out in the DNA. Since genes run the show (at least scientists say they do) from the ground floor up then how can it be they are excluded as if they are the bad guys in this equation. No, they aren't the bad guys, sociological mismanagement of understanding is.
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
I think that Ethiopian highlanders may actually have an advantage genetically, as well as from extra "training" from having lived their whole lives at high-altitude, low-oxygen environments, plus the value placed on running as a sport.
(Djehuti, I think I know the study you are thinking of, and I was going to cite it here anyway)
Andeans have higher % of oxygen saturation in hemoglobin and hemoglobin concentration (higher percent of hemoglobin molecules saturated w/Oxygen and more molecules), which should help, but I guess there isn't the tradition for the sport there (although you'd think the tradition of Incan mail runners would carry over), which has a significant effect. Tibetans have slightly higher hemoglobin concentrations when living above 4000m, but not below this level, although they do have inheritable (unlike Andeans) higher-oxygen saturation levels. Their main adaptation is taking more involuntary breaths per minute, which I don't think would help as much in running when you're going to need more oxygen than involuntary breathing provides.
Note that this higher rate of absorption is depressed at native altitudes, so that saturation levels are actually much lower among Tibetans and Andeans than native sea-level inhabitants. Ethiopian highlanders are different in that they still have sea-level levels of saturation at high altitudes (3530m). What allows this hasn't been found yet, but chances are it's genetic, although it could just be conditioned.
But there are millions of ectomorphic types in West Africa--especially those groups that live in the Savana and Sahel regions--as in Northern Nigeria, Cameroon, Mali, Chad, Niger, Senegal, Gambia, Guinea, etc. Maybe if the training conditions are right there could be succesful distance runners coming from those areas. Sudan and Senegal, by the way, have produced a few noted runners at the 400-800 metre distance.
I think distance running has to do with relative lightness of weight and relatively long extremities--as in thighs and legs.
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But there are millions of ectomorphic types in West Africa--especially those groups that live in the Savana and Sahel regions--as in Northern Nigeria, Cameroon, Mali, Chad, Niger, Senegal, Gambia, Guinea, etc. Maybe if the training conditions are right there could be succesful distance runners coming from those areas. Sudan and Senegal, by the way, have produced a few noted runners at the 400-800 metre distance.
I think distance running has to do with relative lightness of weight and relatively long extremities--as in thighs and legs.
It's not that west africans dont run distance....they do. They simply are no good at it. The 400-800 is not really a distance race....lets see a west african show up in the 3000m steeple chase or the 5000 thousand metres.
Not gonna happen.....they can run it but not at an elite level, not even good enough to make a international championship final.
It's not from lack of opportunity.....they have the same opportunity with distance races as they do with the sprints.....they simply are not configured to do well in a 10,000 metre race.
Maybe there are some groups in remote/rural western africa who can become great disatnce runners, we know africa is so very genetically diverse, however we aint seen 'em yet.
Have there been any west african descended blacks at all anywhere who have been great at real distance running.....I mean can you produce one solid west african descended runner at 3000 metre distances and upward of that....One!
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''I think it has more to due with height and strength. Work=(Force)x(Distance) All power lifters are short in height. They have to perform less work. We will probably never see a tall power lifter unless he/she is a freak of nature.''
Yes.
And surely genes are the constructing agent in this short stature.
Well yes, that and diet.
quote:Grumnam:
The last time I checked genes hang out in the DNA.
What does this have to do with anything?
quote: Since genes run the show (at least scientists say they do) from the ground floor up then how can it be they are excluded as if they are the bad guys in this equation.
I get what you're saying.
In response to European genetics being allegedly behind their success in swimming and power lifting, blackman said it has more to do with the height, which confused you.
quote: No, they aren't the bad guys, sociological mismanagement of understanding is.
Yes, that (racism) is the bad guy.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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''In response to European genetics being allegedly behind their success in swimming and power lifting, blackman said it has more to do with the height, which confused you.''
The confusion is yours, not mine. Blackman said ''short in height'' as if there is no explanation for the short in height which is none other than genetics. I said genetics produces it. It does. It may be painful to accept but I have no control over that.
By the way, the genetic information has already been encoded. I'm no geneticist but I have yet to see information that says diet will produce a seven footer from two short-statured people. If this happens there undoubtedly is some precursor genetic information in the background to offer it without the input of diet.
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:From an American in Texas:A few generations of this and there would be some fast chinese running around the continent trying to keep away from the tigers. No mystery as to why Africans are faster.
I had a good laugh...
Posts: 919 | From: AFRICA | Registered: Apr 2007
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''In response to European genetics being allegedly behind their success in swimming and power lifting, blackman said it has more to do with the height, which confused you.''
The confusion is yours, not mine.
...to the contrary...
quote: Blackman said
Yes, blackman said. Not I.
You should ask Blackman what he meant.
So you think he meant to imply...
quote: ''short in height'' as if there is no explanation for the short in height which is none other than genetics.
Ofcourse genetics is involved. But you quoted me, as if I had implied such. As if I implied that it isn't involved. I didn't, that's where you got confused.
I just agreed it had to do with height, implying it does not have to do with a black vs. white vs. "chinese" 'race' (which we know don't exist biologically because of the massive overlap in human-gene variation).
About genes:
The vast majority of genetic variation is within the races, not in between them, therefore making "race" irrelevant.
So yes, obviously, it has more to do with height.
Are all 'blacks'/africans and 'whites'/europeans taller than asians? Hmmm... say I don't know. Why not ask Yao Ming, that big dude from Rush Hour 3, or the Pygmies?
If that's what Blackman was saying.
Like I said, ask him.
quote:diet
...about diet, again, yes genetics do dictate what you get to my knowledge, but diet affects height as well. - That's all I was saying if there was a mis-understanding.
Ps: What do you mean by all the talk of hurt feelings?
''Genetics is probably the reason Europeans dominate in power lifting and swimming.....there are probably all kinds of athletic events that will give some populations an advantage over others.''
Black man added:
''I think it has more to due with height and strength. Work=(Force)x(Distance) All power lifters are short in height. They have to perform less work. We will probably never see a tall power lifter unless he/she is a freak of nature.
Willing Thinker said in response: ''Yes.''
I see my error was in seeing your single word reply as an endorsement of the entire paragraph.
When Blackman said ''...more to do with height and strength'', this seemingly denies genetics particularly when Obenga's comment said more to do with genetics.
''I just agreed it had to do with height, implying it does not have to do with a black vs. white vs. "chinese" 'race' (which we know don't exist biologically because of the massive overlap in human-gene variation).''
Yet it does have something to do with those groups you just mentioned. How can they be separated from the context of athletics. You will recall there are no Chinese power lifters in the olympics; you will also recall the context of the other groups when athletics was mentioned. It has nothing to do with ''massive overlap.'' This overlap you refer to is human gene variation.
''So yes, obviously, it has more to do with height.'', which is already determined genetically.
When you ask me about the ''hurt feelings'' this is a reference to those who deny genetics are involved in all aspects of humanity that I can see from the literature. So some who will deny athletic superiority in some groups will deny the genetic basis because they feel it is a short jump for the racists to say something to the effect ''we told you so'' in other areas of endeavor. So yes, it is painful to some when they hear genetics in any use.
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Grumman f6f: Originally posted by Obenga:
''Genetics is probably the reason Europeans dominate in power lifting and swimming.....there are probably all kinds of athletic events that will give some populations an advantage over others.''
Black man added:
''I think it has more to due with height and strength. Work=(Force)x(Distance) All power lifters are short in height. They have to perform less work. We will probably never see a tall power lifter unless he/she is a freak of nature.
Willing Thinker said in response: ''Yes.''
Oh yeah, gotcha. I forgot about Obenga's initial post and did not bother to go back to it.
quote:Yet it does have something to do with those groups you just mentioned.
Not really, I notice boxers/fighters coming from certain areas do better than others, compared to whole "races". Same thing, certain areas in the U.S. are tougher than others.
Not Asian Black or White.
quote:You will recall there are no Chinese power lifters
Like there were no Asian or female trombone players in the past? I recall a story about bias against one girl, but I can't remember who.
When you ask me about the ''hurt feelings'' this is a reference to those who deny genetics are involved
Genes are what make us. Who would deny that?
quote:"hurt feelings", this is a reference to those who deny genetics are involved in all aspects of humanity
Well, genetics are "involved in all aspects of humanity" as much as atoms are "involved in all aspects of humanity". Atoms are what we're made of, are they not? However, many seemingly random outside influences affect us? Culture affects us.
Culture and stereotypes play a large part in in what we do and think, and how we do it.
Like the identity studies, that showed that when females and minorities didn't have to classify themselves as such before academic testing, they did better. One less reminder of who they were before a test.
Here are some supposedly black fields of finess:
beat-boxin & freestyling
Yet two of the most awsome beat boxers I know of are a Jewish boy
posted
The Asian boys (Korean?) with the basketballs was interesting. However, I fail to see the relevance here. Most people worldwide can make a decent stab at learning a musical instrument, mimicking, etc. It isn't the same as some groups handling hundreds of pounds or running many, many miles or sprinting short distances with blazing speed.
When I was in Japan in the early 60s in the miltary I had the occasion to visit a nightclub and had my very first experience with Japanese women singing a 'spitting image' of some early R&B girl group tunes. At my young age it never occured to me they couldn't do it but I was amazed at the nearly same sound. The only thing I saw ''out of place'' was the sumo wrestlers. Now, giving a little ground on the diet thing it seems to me these guys eat three cakes instead of two so in this sense you may be right on diet but only in the sense of gorging. I'm thinking these guys were taller than the average Japanese at that time but the competitive spirit drove them to the limit on the eating routine. However, they aren't built for speed or lifting heavy weights so the differences remain as noted.
By the way, thus far on the links, I haven't seen an Asian Spud Webb NBA-type dunking the basketball. Spud Webb, from 20 years ago, at 5'6'' could do just that. Not only that he won a particular year's dunking competition.
I'll check out the other links later.
By the way, have you really discarded your box as you note on your avatar? I had one a longggg time ago but realized it was of no use on page two. It stifles free thinking.
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Grumman f6f: The Asian boys (Korean?) with the basketballs was interesting. However, I fail to see the relevance here.
No point to that basketball thing.
quote: Most people worldwide can make a decent stab at learning a musical instrument, mimicking, etc. It isn't the same as some groups handling hundreds of pounds or running many, many miles or sprinting short distances with blazing speed.
Is it really not? That " Most people worldwide can make a decent stab at" it?
quote:When I was in Japan in the early 60s in the miltary I had the occasion to visit a nightclub and had my very first experience with Japanese women singing a 'spitting image' of some early R&B girl group tunes. At my young age it never occured to me they couldn't do it but I was amazed at the nearly same sound. The only thing I saw ''out of place'' was the sumo wrestlers. Now, giving a little ground on the diet thing it seems to me these guys eat three cakes instead of two so in this sense you may be right on diet but only in the sense of gorging. I'm thinking these guys were taller than the average Japanese at that time but the competitive spirit drove them to the limit on the eating routine. However, they aren't built for speed or lifting heavy weights so the differences remain as noted.
Sure.
quote:I'll check out the other links later.
cool.
quote:By the way, have you really discarded your box as you note on your avatar?
Si, senior.
Whatever gave you any doubt?
In regards to my stance, I don't really have one. Can't be categorized.
What's funny is my stance is the rarist - most people who don't assume egalitarian or racist views to be correct jump to the conclusion of inequalities between "races" and populations - like you - and don't even think to challege the idea of race - as can be seen on many Yahoo_Answers! posts.
I'm just here to learn, and make obvservations, and not assume any thing to be true.
I admitted how I came up with the answer of genetic variation being responsable after a long while of holding the view that it is just hard work.
Although NOW recently, I have come to question the genetic variation view on the grounds that I don't see the same ahievement in SouthEast / East African areas though they have the greatest genetic variation of all groups.
So now I'm sayin again I don't know about the racial superiority thing - no, actually more - I do know about the racial superiority thing. It's bull, malarky, because certain groups seem to be productive over others, within the same "race".
For instance, Mysterycar may be out of shape and have a gut, while I on the other hand am running miles and lifting the irons. (I can't stop being silly at the end of my posts ... I need help)
''What's funny is my stance is the rarist - most people who don't assume egalitarian or racist views to be correct jump to the conclusion of inequalities between "races" and populations - like you - and don't even think to challege the idea of race - as can be seen on many Yahoo_Answers! posts.''
Well how is it I can challenge sporting facts? Do you deny empiricism? It doesn't take much to turn on the television the past 40 years and see who wins and have won some olympic events on a routine basis. I don't believe idealism is a valid position to hold in the present situation as we see it on this planet.
On the ''race'' thing it seems to me that a majority of humans walking this planet are intermingled on a genetic basis so no, in this sense there certainly are no races. Doesn't take that much to figure out this one. What does take some figuring however is the power of phenotypical expression can induce some members of some societies to grapple with the existence of it. This isn't some imaginary extrapolation; phenotype does this to some people on this planet. Why is that. Surely the knowledge of the sameness internally isn't the answer. It has nothing to do with ''if people only knew how closely we are related as a species.'' Don't forget, every person on this planet is mysteriously, neurally different. This is a fact.
And no, I don't challenge a racist unless the racist stands in the way of me supporting my family (peripherally related information). I can't take away the useless views one of them may be caught in the grips of. It is of no consequence to me whatever that some knucklehead makes inane comments about one group or another. There is no racist on this planet that can make me feel unsure of myself simply by making stereotypical comments. I don't lend myself to weak-minded foolishness. Then again that's just me. Others are not as strong.
Which brings me back to this from you. You seem to think just because I see obvious differences on a sporting platform, brought about by observation on a years long basis, that this somehow equates to inserting racial superiority in a classroom setting. I'm happy to inform you you can use someone else to prop up your ''... most people who don't assume egalitarian or racist views to be correct jump to the conclusion of inequalities between "races" and populations ...'' Having said that this still doesn't address why some groups excel in some sports and others don't. Of course the short and easy answer is Michael Jordan says ''Eat your Wheaties.''
''I'm just here to learn, and make obvservations, and not assume anything to be true.''
Yes, that's my operating premise. Just as I say all the time, ''Things ain't what they seem.''
And I think I'm jealous of 5'10'', I'm only 5'9'' at 205 pounds. Can't play tennis anymore, my hip says no way. Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Tyrann0saurus: I thought the reason black people were better at running was their relatively longer limbs (remember those limb ratio studies?)...
This was mentioned early in the thread......there is no one cause....several truths come together to equal an overall advantage in running fast.
If fear of finding some groups are superior to others in some areas bothers people they need to find a way to stop the clock because we are gonna find out some things like this and it's not just gonna be limited to running, swimming and power lifting.
It's not intelligent to believe groups adapted to different enviroments to survive around the world and yet those adaptations gave us no differences that will result in one group being superior to another in some areas and inferior in other areas.
Posts: 404 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Yeah. Like Leucoderms superior to survive in temperate/cold climates.
quote:Originally posted by Obenga:
quote:Originally posted by Tyrann0saurus: I thought the reason black people were better at running was their relatively longer limbs (remember those limb ratio studies?)...
This was mentioned early in the thread......there is no one cause....several truths come together to equal an overall advantage in running fast.
If fear of finding some groups are superior to others in some areas bothers people they need to find a way to stop the clock because we are gonna find out some things like this and it's not just gonna be limited to running, swimming and power lifting.
It's not intelligent to believe groups adapted to different enviroments to survive around the world and yet those adaptations gave us no differences that will result in one group being superior to another in some areas and inferior in other areas.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Cut to the chase. Who are the superior intelligence groups? Who are the inferior intelligence groups? Why, and how did they come to be so?
quote:Originally posted by Obenga:
If fear of finding some groups are superior to others in some areas bothers people they need to find a way to stop the clock because we are gonna find out some things like this and it's not just gonna be limited to running, swimming and power lifting.
It's not intelligent to believe groups adapted to different enviroments to survive around the world and yet those adaptations gave us no differences that will result in one group being superior to another in some areas and inferior in other areas.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Cut to the chase. Who are the superior intelligence groups? Who are the inferior intelligence groups? Why, and how did they come to be so?
Are we sure intelligence has been defined yet?
Once we are done with that we need to define how many types of intelligences there are.
Then we would need space aliens to come down with non-bias tests for each intelligence and see what, if any, group comes up rated a little higher than other groups in most categories of intelligence.
IMO if all that did happen we wouldnt come up with anything that is divded by social concepts of race......but something more like the Ashkenazi Jews scenario which is probably a de facto selective breeding program over 1200 years long and running.....selecting for certain mental traits.
But they are not a race, they are a specific culture. I certainly think we could find more of that for certain intellectual traits among groups of people......as we can with other inherited traits besides intelligence.
Posts: 404 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Grumman f6f: Willing Thinker
quote:{What Box} wrote:
''What's funny is my stance is the rarist - most people who don't assume egalitarian or racist views to be correct jump to the conclusion of inequalities between "races" and populations - like you - and don't even think to challege the idea of race - as can be seen on many Yahoo_Answers! posts.''
Well how is it I can challenge sporting facts?
If by “facts” you mean stats,
Who’s denying sporting stats? Do you support the notion of race? Are you arguing sporting facts do?
Did you know stats can be misleading and lie, without the full story?
Did you know that for some reason or other, kids who move down South to attend college do worse than kids further North?
Djehuti get outta there YOU’RE BRAIN IS FRYIN! Please.
How about the fact most/all sprinters are black doesn’t mean all blacks are sprinters. That’s why I find such a conclusion based on such flat evidence (though in real life there are variables) to be to little to simply
believe. So for you, and other racial inequality advocates that’s what it comes down to: belief.
quote: It doesn't take much to turn on the television the past 40 years and see who wins and have won some olympic events on a routine basis.
It doesn’t take much to turn on the TV and see records being shattered, or to have seen golf as an exclusively European sport before the likes of Tiger Woods (Blasian).
quote: I don't believe idealism is a valid position to hold in the present situation as we see it on this planet.
And? Who’s being idealistic?
quote:On the ''race'' thing it seems to me that a majority of humans walking this planet are intermingled on a genetic basis so
(… and come from the same ancestors…)
quote:no, in this sense there certainly are no races. Doesn't take that much to figure out this one. What does take some figuring however is the power of phenotypical expression can induce some members of some societies to grapple with the existence of it. This isn't some imaginary extrapolation; phenotype does this to some people on this planet.
Point?
quote:Why is that.
Because.
Actually, it was likely the reverse in the case of the modern notion of “race” – propaganda terminology for the moral psyche and / or economic gain. Like slavery, for instance.
They had to rationalize a reason to exploit others in such a way. They also had to justify reasons for the mistreatment of other peoples around the world.
quote:Surely the knowledge of the sameness internally isn't the answer.
Surely this has nothing to do with anything.
Some people just don’t see it you’re way.
Racialists even declared Japeth, Ham, and Shem to be “different races”, though brothers, contradicting the vary idea.
quote:''if people only knew how closely we are related as a species.''
…then they would more easily see just how silly this modern notion of ‘race is.
quote:Don't forget, every person on this planet is mysteriously, neutrally different. This is a fact.
Yes, we all have different spirits, that is a must.
So what’s the point here?
Is “People are different” ‘sposed ta equal black and white race are different because if so, you’re mistaken.
“People are different” means individuals are different. Though different groups of people do share certain similarities. (Europeans with Europeans, Africans with Africans)
quote:And no, I don't challenge a racist unless the racist stands in the way of me supporting my family
Hate to cut you off again, but what does this have to do with anything?
LOL!
You goin off on a rant again?
quote: I can't take away the useless views one of them may be caught in the grips of.
And? We’re on another topic, here.
quote: It is of no consequence to me whatever that some knucklehead makes inane comments about one group or another.
Speaking of inane, <chuckle>, there used to be a poster here (who can remain nameless ) who constantly posted the most inane material of all posters, ever to come here( which shuold make it clear as to who I am refering to ). He was so good at getting attention.
Anyway, I did not know it at the time, but there are many fools out there like that. Fools all over the net, in AmericanRennisance, here, Dodona, Stormfront, etc.
Anyway, I stopped caring for them. The only thing I then cared about was the psychological state of many non white people(mainly black people). Many of whom are worse off than white racists, themselves.
But any who, I don’t consider it noble to not give a [hoot] about someone of another race.
I feel it weak. As if you have let them beat you into not caring about them.
Now I’m for racial unity.
I consider THAT the realest position.
quote:There is no racist on this planet that can make me feel unsure of myself simply by making stereotypical comments. I don't lend myself to weak-minded foolishness.
Good, that’s possibly one less brotha I have to worry about. Others aren’t so informed.
quote:Then again that's just me. Others are not so strong…
Which is why I’m here.
quote:Which brings me back to this from you. You seem to think just because I see obvious differences on a sporting platform, brought about by observation on a years long basis, that this somehow equates to inserting racial superiority in a classroom setting.
Depends on what you mean by “obvious differences”. If you’re referring to those stats, scroll up and reread my post.
quote:''... most people who don't assume egalitarian or racist views to be correct jump to the conclusion of inequalities between "races" and populations ...'' Having said that this still doesn't address why some groups excel in some sports and others don't.
Yes, it was just my response to (yet another one of) your distraction of asking me if I had really stepped out of “the box”. I simply told you that given my observations my beliefs seem to be quite A normal…
quote:Obenga:
It's not intelligent to believe groups adapted to different enviroments to survive around the world and yet those adaptations gave us no differences
…or to assume that we as a “race” haven’t possessed the mental tools to survive the whole time, and still in this modern day have not fully exploited the human mind to its full potential.
To me it ain't about believing, it's a matter of evidence.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Obenga: Are we sure intelligence has been defined yet?
; Always on top of things aren't we...
quote:Originally posted by Grumman f6f: Willing Thinker
quote:{What Box} wrote:
''What's funny is my stance is the rarist - most people who don't assume egalitarian or racist views to be correct jump to the conclusion of inequalities between "races" and populations - like you - and don't even think to challege the idea of race - as can be seen on many Yahoo_Answers! posts.''
Well how is it I can challenge sporting facts?
If by “facts” you mean stats,
Who’s denying sporting stats? Do you support the notion of race? Are you arguing sporting facts do?
Did you know stats can be misleading and lie, without the full story?
Did you know that for some reason or other, kids who move down South to attend college do worse than kids further North?
Djehuti get outta there YOU’RE BRAIN IS FRYIN! Please.
How about the fact most/all sprinters are black doesn’t mean all blacks are sprinters. That’s why I find such a conclusion based on such flat evidence (though in real life there are variables) to be to little to simply
believe. So for you, and other racial inequality advocates that’s what it comes down to: belief.
quote: It doesn't take much to turn on the television the past 40 years and see who wins and have won some olympic events on a routine basis.
It doesn’t take much to turn on the TV and see records being shattered, or to have seen golf as an exclusively European sport before the likes of Tiger Woods (Blasian).
quote: I don't believe idealism is a valid position to hold in the present situation as we see it on this planet.
And? Who’s being idealistic?
quote:On the ''race'' thing it seems to me that a majority of humans walking this planet are intermingled on a genetic basis so
(… and come from the same ancestors…)
quote:no, in this sense there certainly are no races. Doesn't take that much to figure out this one. What does take some figuring however is the power of phenotypical expression can induce some members of some societies to grapple with the existence of it. This isn't some imaginary extrapolation; phenotype does this to some people on this planet.
Point?
quote:Why is that.
Because.
Actually, it was likely the reverse in the case of the modern notion of “race” – propaganda terminology for the moral psyche and / or economic gain. Like slavery, for instance.
They had to rationalize a reason to exploit others in such a way. They also had to justify reasons for the mistreatment of other peoples around the world.
quote:Surely the knowledge of the sameness internally isn't the answer.
Surely this has nothing to do with anything.
Some people just don’t see it you’re way.
Racialists even declared Japeth, Ham, and Shem to be “different races”, though brothers, contradicting the vary idea.
quote:''if people only knew how closely we are related as a species.''
…then they would more easily see just how silly this modern notion of ‘race is.
quote:Don't forget, every person on this planet is mysteriously, neutrally different. This is a fact.
Yes, we all have different spirits, that is a must.
So what’s the point here?
Is “People are different” ‘sposed ta equal black and white race are different because if so, you’re mistaken.
“People are different” means individuals are different. Though different groups of people do share certain similarities. (Europeans with Europeans, Africans with Africans)
quote:And no, I don't challenge a racist unless the racist stands in the way of me supporting my family
Hate to cut you off again, but what does this have to do with anything?
LOL!
You goin off on a rant again?
quote: I can't take away the useless views one of them may be caught in the grips of.
And? We’re on another topic, here.
quote: It is of no consequence to me whatever that some knucklehead makes inane comments about one group or another.
Speaking of inane, <chuckle>, there used to be a poster here (who can remain nameless ) who constantly posted the most inane material of all posters, ever to come here( which shuold make it clear as to who I am refering to ). He was so good at getting attention.
Anyway, I did not know it at the time, but there are many fools out there like that. Fools all over the net, in AmericanRennisance, here, Dodona, Stormfront, etc.
Anyway, I stopped caring for them. The only thing I then cared about was the psychological state of many non white people(mainly black people). Many of whom are worse off than white racists, themselves.
But any who, I don’t consider it noble to not give a [hoot] about someone of another race.
I feel it weak. As if you have let them beat you into not caring about them.
Now I’m for racial unity.
I consider THAT the realest position.
quote:There is no racist on this planet that can make me feel unsure of myself simply by making stereotypical comments. I don't lend myself to weak-minded foolishness.
Good, that’s possibly one less brotha I have to worry about. Others aren’t so informed.
quote:Then again that's just me. Others are not so strong…
Which is why I’m here.
quote:Which brings me back to this from you. You seem to think just because I see obvious differences on a sporting platform, brought about by observation on a years long basis, that this somehow equates to inserting racial superiority in a classroom setting.
Depends on what you mean by “obvious differences”. If you’re referring to those stats, scroll up and reread my post.
quote:''... most people who don't assume egalitarian or racist views to be correct jump to the conclusion of inequalities between "races" and populations ...'' Having said that this still doesn't address why some groups excel in some sports and others don't.
Yes, it was just my response to (yet another one of) your distraction of asking me if I had really stepped out of “the box”. I simply told you that given my observations my beliefs seem to be quite A normal…
quote:Obenga:
It's not intelligent to believe groups adapted to different enviroments to survive around the world and yet those adaptations gave us no differences
…or to assume that we as a “race” haven’t possessed the mental tools to survive the whole time, and still in this modern day have not fully exploited the human mind to its full potential.
To me it ain't about believing, it's a matter of evidence.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
Right out of the gate I think what is important is when quoting to bolster one's argument that person should keep paragraph context/continuity in mind.
When I said this:
''Well how is it I can challenge sporting facts?''
Willing Thinker then said: ''If by “facts” you mean stats.''
Then in the same breath you say: Who’s denying sporting stats?''
If your intent is to argue statistics then do so in context, not in this argument. You set yourself up to win an argument without my participation.
More from Willing Thinker: ''Do you support the notion of race?''
A more appropriate question will be why are you asking me to repeat myself when you already have access to my view on it above on this very thread?
Thinker: ''Are you arguing sporting facts do?''
Why of course some groups perform far better than others in sports. I said this already. You're in a state of denial.
''Did you know that for some reason or other, kids who move down South to attend college do worse than kids further North?''
Continuity is... where? By the way, why are you asking me to provide something you don't have a clue on?
''How about the fact most/all sprinters are black doesn’t mean all blacks are sprinters.''
Why are you asking me to reassign myself to a known fact?
Thinker again: ''So for you, and other racial inequality advocates that’s what it comes down to: belief.''
No. Facts. Do me a favor Thinker, start at the beginning of my post... again, because you read it the first time then cut and pasted so you had access twice. So why are you missing what I said throughout?
I said: ''It doesn't take much to turn on the television the past 40 years and see who wins and have won some olympic events on a routine basis.''
Thinker knows the truth of discernment? ''It doesn’t take much to turn on the TV and see records being shattered, or to have seen golf as an exclusively European sport before the likes of Tiger Woods (Blasian).''
Question for you: Do you think power lifters and sprinters can be taught the game of golf? I know they can. Do you think you can turn a Phil Mickelson or a Tiger Woods into a world class sprinter (or powerlifter)?
I said: ''I don't believe idealism is a valid position to hold in the present situation as we see it on this planet.''
Thinker replied with: ''And? Who’s being idealistic?''
Well you sure aren't being realistic.
From me: ''On the ''race'' thing it seems to me that a majority of humans walking this planet are intermingled on a genetic basis so ... ''
Thinker interjected with:
(… ''and come from the same ancestors''…)
Careful, you may irritate some tacking on that ''s'' at the end of the word.
''...no, in this sense there certainly are no races. Doesn't take that much to figure out this one. What does take some figuring however is the power of phenotypical expression can induce some members of some societies to grapple with the existence of it. This isn't some imaginary extrapolation; phenotype does this to some people on this planet.''
Thinker wrote: ''Point?''
If you are agreeing with the above then I can see why you said ''point?'' If not, then read it again to see how realism is played out.
From me: ''Surely the knowledge of the sameness internally isn't the answer.''
Willing Thinker: ''Surely this has nothing to do with anything.''
Oh but it does. It's easy for you to say that because you're an idealist so as a result of this idealism you're blinded by it.
Thinker offered: Some people just don’t see it you’re way.''
No kidding!
This isn't my quote but it works.
''if people only knew how closely we are related as a species.''
This is assuming that one major group accepts it in its entirety. That's whay I said this above''... phenotypical expression ...''
Thinker: ''…then they would more easily see just how silly this modern notion of ‘race is.''
Easily see? Really?
When I said ''neurally'' Thinker said in response:
''Yes, we all have different spirits, that is a must.
''So what’s the point here?''
Then you're admitting to my realism, not your idealism. However your ''that is a must'' means... what? Is this one in a religious or scientific sense?
I posted: ''And no, I don't challenge a racist unless the racist stands in the way of me supporting my family.''
...and Thinker said: ''Hate to cut you off again, but what does this have to do with anything?
''LOL!
''You goin off on a rant again?''
Sorry you can't keep (peripheral) context in just a couple of posts.
Me again: ''I can't take away the useless views one of them may be caught in the grips of.''
Thinker again: ''And? We’re on another topic, here.''
No we aren't. On the other hand if you don't know how to admit to context, then...
Thinker again: But any who, I don’t consider it noble to not give a [hoot] about someone of another race.''
Can I get an amen up in here. Did you did intend to say race?
Thinker again: ''Now I’m for racial unity.
I consider THAT the realest position.''
I think I get your play on ''realest.'' However, if that wasn't your intent then you are an idealist.
Almost to the end; my stuff: Which brings me back to this from you. You seem to think just because I see obvious differences on a sporting platform, brought about by observation on a years long basis, that this somehow equates to inserting racial superiority in a classroom setting.''
...then Thinker posted: ''Depends on what you mean by “obvious differences”. If you’re referring to those stats, scroll up and reread my post.''
My ''obvious differences'' have already been explained and it still has nothing to do with statistics.
I tried to delete (for you) that ''statistic'' portion of your post but I knew it couldn't be done (all along).
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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No selective breeding by Ashkenazi Jews just cross generational Talmud study which involves several varieties of memorization and logic. But Russians in general rank the same in intelligence (and we damn well know what that is, we use it on this forum every day, at least many of us try to) whether they be Jewish or not.
Likewise Nigerians have proven themselves of high intelligence (don't know which if any specific ethnies other than southerners in general) by being the cream of Britains higher educational crop outranking the supposedly superior sizewise and convolution far east Asian brain -- not to mention ol' Emeagwali (sp) the computer brain in tandem himself.
Sorry, no space aliens or other space oddities need be sarcastically invoked in this matter.
quote:Originally posted by Obenga: Cut to the chase. Who are the superior intelligence groups? Who are the inferior intelligence groups? Why, and how did they come to be so?
Are we sure intelligence has been defined yet?
Once we are done with that we need to define how many types of intelligences there are.
Then we would need space aliens to come down with non-bias tests for each intelligence and see what, if any, group comes up rated a little higher than other groups in most categories of intelligence.
IMO if all that did happen we wouldnt come up with anything that is divded by social concepts of race......but something more like the Ashkenazi Jews scenario which is probably a de facto selective breeding program over 1200 years long and running.....selecting for certain mental traits.
But they are not a race, they are a specific culture. I certainly think we could find more of that for certain intellectual traits among groups of people......as we can with other inherited traits besides intelligence.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
I don't know where this thread has gone. I won't even bother to keep up. But what do you guys make of racist claims as to why blacks haven't mastered golf (before Tiger Woods) or why blacks are not good swimmers??
And yes, even I have heard of the nonsense myself. Blacks haven't mastered golf because of poor short coordination muscles or some rubbish or other and that blacks aren't good swimmers because of some crap about density or they can't float(?) LOL
Sports and racial psuedo-science. Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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No selective breeding by Ashkenazi Jews just cross generational Talmud study which involves several varieties of memorization and logic.
"Another theory suggests that there was selective breeding for Talmudic scholarship. The are two fatal problems with this hypothesis: first, it was wealth that caused increased fertility, not scholarship. Second, there weren't very many rabbis, certainly less than one percent of the population.. A selective force that only affects a fraction of a percent of the population can never be strong, can never cause significant change in tens of generations. One that that affects the top 10 or 20% of the population can."
Likewise Nigerians have proven themselves of high intelligence (don't know which if any specific ethnies other than southerners in general) by being the cream of Britains higher educational crop outranking the supposedly superior sizewise and convolution far east Asian brain -- not to mention ol' Emeagwali (sp) the computer brain in tandem himself.
Sorry, no space aliens or other space oddities need be sarcastically invoked in this matter.
Not sure how any of this is related to what I said ....I'm not weasling if u have a theory of intelligence I'd be pleased to read it. I believe in the multiple intelligence theory and cant tell you what you asked in the form u asked or probably in anyway....I just gave u my opinion call it what u will.....but wheres yours?
I dont believe in any superiority as you posed the question and I said that....now in a particualr area I wouldnt be surprised to find out some group had an edge over another as a result of thousands of years of selection for it.....again whats your take on it?
The stuff about the Nigerians sounds excellent, be even more pleased if you post that info..Thanx.
As usual Chinese youngsters, though relatively few in number (2,226), had the highest attainment - 79.3% getting five good GCSEs.
The figure for Indian pupils was 71.4%.
I am happy to find out you have an update on these figures from 2006 showing Nigerians in britain top these two groups out.....sweet, pass the info along, the Nigerian parents of my pupils will enjoy this news as much as I will. October is black history month here so I'll squeeze that into the lesson plan.
Posts: 404 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
This could become a Strom thread but. .. . moderators beware make sure it is kept clean. . .. This may go up to 10 pages.
West Africans and their decendents making better sprinters because of genes. Read someplace that Africans have denser bones therefore they are heavier even if they look comparatively the same size and that can be an advantage in certain activities. Read also NASA study finds blacks may do better in space because of bone structure. Europeans and Asians are lighter so they do better in certain activities. Swimming, Xgames type sports come to mind. So “hitting” sports will favor a “denser” person. Also agree with the muscle/fat ratio study. Look around. . . . the AVERAGE black youth(male/female) has more muscle definition than their counter parts. Of course there are exceptions. Maybe that’s why some of the bros favour a “supple” female .
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I don't know where this thread has gone. I won't even bother to keep up. But what do you guys make of racist claims as to why blacks haven't mastered golf (before Tiger Woods) or why blacks are not good swimmers??
And yes, even I have heard of the nonsense myself. Blacks haven't mastered golf because of poor short coordination muscles or some rubbish or other and that blacks aren't good swimmers because of some crap about density or they can't float(?) LOL
Sports and racial psuedo-science.
^Tell me about it. But as to the golf part, there is also DJ Singh .
quote:Originally posted by xxyman:
West Africans and their decendents making better sprinters because of genes. Read someplace that Africans have denser bones therefore they are heavier even if they look comparatively the same size and that can be an advantage in certain activities.
Yes, it was posted in this thread. Many people also seemingly fail to grasp the meaning of "on average".
quote:xxy man:
luecoderms [white people] are better suited for colder weather
Actually, the purpose of their white skin is not for temperature. There is no prupose.
There is a reason, however, they lack melinan. They lack this because a greater lack of sun-light and vitamins, which cause melanin to be more of a setback than an asset.
So luecoderms hold an Advantage in darker climates, not colder ones.
There's a reason polar bears are black under their reflective /white fur. [Props go to Takruri for this little tid bit of knowledge.]
How humans have adapted to heat and the lack their of is in their bone-morphology.
So yes, different people have different advantages in different settings, some times, if that was the point of you're posting this.
Yes, what I accept is evidence.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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Re Ashkenazis. Your theory might work only if the Ashkenazis practised polygamy and their choice of spouse was based males seeking out or arranged to be married with females of evident intellectual gifts.
1) First, the Ashkenazis did not practise polygamy and 2)males everywhere tend to choose their spouses based on "looks" and/or based on whether they would make compliant dutiful wives.
Ashkenazis have been dominat intellectually in the West and Russia mainly because they place high value on learning. So their intellectual status derives mainly from sociology.
And by the way--for whatever it's worth[I don't go for IQ tests as a means of testing innate intelligence, given the great vagaries of sociological culture--the IQ of Israel has been tested at 95.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Grumman f6f: When I said this:
''Well how is it I can challenge sporting facts?''
Willing Thinker then said: ''If by “facts” you mean stats.''
Then in the same breath you say: Who’s denying sporting stats?''
What's not to get?
You asked how you can dispute "sporting facts".
I said if by "facts" you mean stats, I'm not denying any. In other words, I basically said, nice distraction.
quote:You set yourself up to win an argument without my participation.
This is a funnier comment than I think you know .
quote:Grumman6f6:
More from Willing Thinker: ''Do you support the notion of race?''
you already have access to my view on it above on this very thread?
Just making sure, because your answer leaves more to be desired.
Grumman said:
quote: "On the ''race'' thing it seems to me that a majority of humans walking this planet are intermingled on a genetic basis so no, in this sense there certainly are no races."
So you said, in the sense that we have intermingled, their are no races.
What about those who haven't?
What I'm getting at is do you believe in human sub-species?
quote: Grumman sez I sed:
''Did you know that for some reason or other, kids who move down South to attend college do worse than kids further North?''
Continuity is... where? By the way, why are you asking me to provide something you don't have a clue on?
quote:Willing Thinker actually posted:
Did you know stats can be misleading and lie, without the full story?
Did you know that for some reason or other, kids who move down South to attend college do worse than kids further North?
Ignoring the fact that I didn't ask you to provide but simply made a varifyable statement via stats and the fact that someone seems to think they possess mind readin powers to tell if I have a clue on something or other (without contradicting my statement):
What caught my eye is you said:
"Continuity is ...where?"
The irony... pretty hypocritical of you, mam or sir...right after telling me I should take things in context.
Before that I said "did you know stats can lie?" THAT's the bleepin context.
It is you who keeps loosing context... you seem to accuse others of what you do just like a certain former dude here...(the nameless one)
Follow closely:
quote: Looky here at what Grumman wrote here :
Thinker [wrote]: ''Are you arguing sporting facts do?''
Why of course some groups perform far better than others in sports. I said this already. You're in a state of denial.
ROFL!^ Talk about LOST!
Watch closely...
I, Willing W.B. Thinker said...:
quote:Originally posted by Willing Thinker:
If by “facts” you mean stats,
who’s denying sporting stats?
For those to slow I'm saying who is denying or challenging the validity of stats?
next,
quote:Do you support the notion of race? Are you arguing sporting stats do?
This translates to:
What is your arguement if you weren't saying I denied "stats"?
Are you somehow arguing that these sporting stats prove race exists?
And you then answer with a question completely way off!:
quote: * Examine closely * at what Grumman wrote here in response:
Why of course some groups perform far better than others in sports. I said this already. You're in a state of denial.
Broke it down to baby bits, we shuold have no problem here.
You know, this is getting so low-level, don't be surprised if I don't reply to ranting and raving (exposed as such above) in the future.
quote:"How about the fact most/all sprinters are black doesn’t mean all blacks are sprinters.''
Why are you asking me to reassign myself to a known fact?
Unlike you I don't think I have the psychic powers to know you comprehended that some black groups do better than at some sports. That's all.
quote:Thinker again: ''So for you, and other racial inequality advocates that’s what it comes down to: belief.''
Question for you: Do you think power lifters and sprinters can be taught the game of golf? I know they can. Do you think you can turn a Phil Mickelson or a Tiger Woods into a world class sprinter (or powerlifter)?
Interesting question (for once). I'll get back to you later on that.
quote:I said: ''I don't believe idealism is a valid position to hold in the present situation as we see it on this planet.''
Thinker replied with: ''And? Who’s being idealistic?''
Well you sure aren't being realistic.
Feel free to provide evidence by citation. Thanks.
quote:From me: ''On the ''race'' thing it seems to me that a majority of humans walking this planet are intermingled on a genetic basis so ... ''
Thinker interjected with:
(… ''and come from the same ancestors''…)
Careful, you may irritate some tacking on that ''s'' at the end of the word.
What do you mean.. to my knowledge our projenators were closely related, but not exactly an Adam and Eve type deal...
more like an Adam and Eves type deal, and later on at one point and Adams and Eve type deal.
quote:If you are agreeing with the above then I can see why you said ''point?'' If not, then read it again to see how realism is played out.
Whatever about the realism, what's the point of saying some people see races?
As I said, race is real, in the political sense anyway...
quote:Grumman sez he said:
''Surely the knowledge of the sameness internally isn't the answer.''
Willing Thinker: ''Surely this has nothing to do with anything.''
Yeah, lol.
quote:You're an idealist
So what. Label me if you will. It doesn't change anything for me. I honor an "idealist with my ideals more than one with yours.
quote:Grumman posted:
Thinker: ''…then they would more easily see just how silly this modern notion of ‘race is.''
Easily see? Really?
When I said ''neurally'' Thinker said in response:
''Yes, [...] ''So what’s the point here?'' Then you're admitting to my realism,
You are saying individuals are different, more so than races, which threatens not my point.
Cool
quote:However your ''that is a must'' means... what? Is this one in a religious or scientific sense?
Both, to me. Now that, is a belief of mine. Like your beliefs about races.
quote: Grum sed he posted: ''And no, I don't challenge a racist unless the racist stands in the way of me supporting my family.''
...and Thinker said: ''Hate to cut you off again, but what does this have to do with anything?
''LOL!
''You goin off on a rant again?''
Sorry you can't keep (peripheral) context in just a couple of posts.
My point is why talk about challeging a racist?
What, are you saying you'er a racist and I should disregard you?
quote: Gremlin sed:
Thinker again: But any who, I don’t consider it noble to not give a [hoot] about someone of another race.''
Can I get an amen up in here. Did you did intend to say race?
Yeah, and I've said it before. I usually put quotes on the word to signify it's erroneous traditional use.
posted
One of the points I was making is that higher fat quantities favor a cold climate. That couple with a lighter skin is perfect adaptation. The drawback is these phenotypes don't do well in HOT climates and the "side effect" of their adaption is less muscle consequently less speed.
This may sound crazy ... but have anyone seen the blending in with nature of white skin, blonde hair, red-head during the winter months. Comparred to the bro and sista who don't "blend in" well. These bros will also have to do some serious running to get away from the snow/mountain lions. Either way(Afica/Europe/anerica) they need to run. Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Re Ashkenazis. Your theory might work only if the Ashkenazis practised polygamy and their choice of spouse was based males seeking out or arranged to be married with females of evident intellectual gifts.
Why would they need to be polygamous?
Maybe selective pressure allows those with the selected trait to do well and have more children and those who arent as wealthy to have less children.......over time what do u get.
Lets forget this trait and look at tay Sachs...They practiced endogamy and whoever had the problem spread it within the group, a group that does not marry outside it's group a thousand years later they get this genetic disease in a much higher percentage than other groups.
Flip to today and now ashkenazi jews get screened to see if they have the trait, if they do they are told a match for them is undersireable.....is this not another kind of selective breeding?
Lets say NBA players only marry WNBA players....this goes on for 1200 years ...I think we would have a population of people who are above average with regard to height, reflexes and vertical leap.
I dont think it's outside the realm of possiblity that a group has lived under a set of conditions for hundreds/thousands of years and developed a trait ( not just physical traits )useful for survival there that groups not living under the set of conditions have not developed to such a degree.
Why is it so acceptable that black skin is an advantage in equitorial areas and light skin is not, yet mentally everywere humans have lived for thousands of years, no difference can be accepted in a certain small area of mental ability or performance.
Is this really a logical point of view?
From the start of this thread I've made it clear that I believe NO group will come up generally superior to another across the board....that doesnt mean in a specific area or activity some groups may do a little better than others. We see this all throughout the natural world, is it our arrogance that keeps us from thinking "well we are human and we are not subject to natures laws like all other living things on the planet!"
Make sense to me.....sure it's a slippery slope, but that doesnt mean you deny the truth of a thing because of the fear of where it may lead.....or in this case lead back too.
History tells us that no group is consistantly superior over all others over time......If there was one superior group of humans out there thousands of years of history would of revealed who these guys are.....I dont see 'em, does anyone else see 'em?
History has spoken already, there is nothing to worry about.
Posts: 404 | Registered: Feb 2003
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I wrote that the Ashkenazi did not practise polygamy because on your thesis it would be those males with the required adaptive traits who would monopolise in terms of assorted mating--given their resource sets. That would be the most efficient way to spread a particular trait within a society.
And it's pure speculation that you assume that the Ashkenazi with the adaptive traits you assume had more offspring.
Your point about Tay Sachs is useful but Tay Sachs is not adaptive; it probably resulted from some mutation that affects less that 1% percentage of the Ashkenazi population in disease terms.
Your point about human intellect being variously distributed won't wash because the human cognitive apparatus(brain operations) is such that the same ability that it took for humans to create language and do cave paintings is the same ability that would produce the writer, the mathematician and the scientist.
Take the case of Einstein: none of his ancestors did anything of note and if you check his family tree you will see that the vast majority were non-literate nomads trekking all over Europe until the European Renaissance.
In the case of other traits(passive and active) there is a direct interaction with the environment but that's not the case with brain power, it was already there some 150,000 years ago--and more than enough to boot.
So if you take the offspring of 1000 Masai herders and acculturate them into Ashkenazi culture--you will get the same intellectual disposition.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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As proof of my point consider the long-standing aristocratic families in Europe all the result of systematic assorted mating over the centuries. The adaptive traits for the males would be chivalry and brains while for the females "beauty" would be selected for.
But just check out the British Royal Family today plus their landed gentry kin. What do you see? Lazy, dull and intellectually challenged people who are not "beautiful" in the least--by any standard.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
I wrote that the Ashkenazi did not practise polygamy because on your thesis it would be those males with the required adaptive traits who would monopolise in terms of assorted mating
Lamin,
It's not my thesis... t's out there and debateable and any can read it...thats all I did...I read it and there is some logic behind it...u disgaree, hey thats OK.
what is your point of view or anyone elses for that matter.......are all groups of humans simply equal on any measure of physical or mental ability?
I'm interested to hear who has AN opinion one way or another.
Posts: 404 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I by into intelligence being more of a cultural transmition.
I mean, that's just my perogative, living in an extremely diverse area with diverse ethnicities at diverse incomes.
When one changes another one's mind, and changes the way one thinks, and one does stuff,
one does things differently.
quote:Originally posted by Grumman f6f: I said: ''Do you think you can turn a Phil Mickelson or a Tiger Woods into a world class sprinter (or powerlifter)?''
To which Thinker replied with: ''Interesting question (for once). I'll get back to you later on that.''
Thank you Willing Thinker for participating in context.
Sure thing.
quote:Your out of context ''stats'' morphed the dialog.
Whatever, I know I wasn’t the furthest out of context .
Anyway, hold on for my reply.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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Well it all boils down in general to the individual but then there is the thing about averages. The "average" West African runs the shorter distances faster than the average West European--all things being equal.
The reasons for this may be the result of what one could call "contingent adaptation"--that is the chance combination of a number of adaptive traits in a particular environment.
So in terms of passive(pigmentation, hair form, etc. usually affects ~ 90-100% of the populations) and active(running and jumping abilities, e.g. affects a much smmaler precentage) there are human differentials but when it comes to cognitive capacities, all human groups have equal cognitive skills naturally because once the human brain evolved to the extent of creating human languages and acquiring the human ability to think abstractly there was no need for any further evolution--because the human ability to do cave paintings and make intricate jewelry could also be used to build pyramids and invent mathematics and do writing
To answer your question: all human groups are unequal when it comes to physical abilities and those who derive from Africa's environments would be on the average superior in this regard. The range of African body plans and structures makes this possible--all the adaptive equilibrium results from evolving in the environments of Africa.
But when it comes to mental ability all human groups are equal--on account of the nature of the human brain and its unique capacity for abstraction.
One Proof: All humans can easily learn to speak and write any human language[a trait unique to humans]--which is reflective of the neural structure of the human brain. Think of the equal human capacities for vision and hearing--all things being equal.
But again, as I said, it all boils down to the individual's unique stock of environmental adaptations and individual genetic(psychological and dispositional) make-up.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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''I by into intelligence being more of a cultural transmition.'
It depends on precisely what you mean by intelligence. If you mean the human capacity in its simplest form is nothing more than an understanding and ability to translate every-day information between societies then yes, it is culturally transmitted. Conversely, if neural activity isn't at the high technology conceptualization stage then no.
Lamin says: ''... all human groups have equal cognitive skills naturally because once the human brain evolved to the extent of creating human languages and acquiring the human ability to think abstractly there was no need for any further evolution ...''
Progression of cognition isn't manifest the world over if evolution displays brain equalness as its goal from Lamin's point of view. If evolution produces a natural (linear) progression then abstraction and conceptualization shouldn't be an issue within any group.Yet it is an issue with some groups, but not some individuals within some groups, simply because some people don't have the capacity.
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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Whatever differences that human groups demonstrate in terms of abstraction and conceptualization is easily explained by education--i.e. the transmission of intellectual skills.
Example: Europeans have been in Europe for at least 35,000 years yet they were taught reading and writing only in the last 2,000 years-- and only a very tiny minority as in the cases of Greece and Rome. But in the last 400 years their dominant classes have taken intellectual skills very seriously and have nurtured such more than any other groups. The result is that Europe and its settlements in the other continents are today responsible for some 80% of the world's intellectual output--in all areas.
My point is that according to your thesis "abstraction and conceptualization" would have been an issue for Europeans compared to the Ancient Egyptians and Kushites some 3,000 years ago but my point is that--that is not the case today--on account of a set of historically contingent reasons.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
The info I posted here a couple of years ago was on higher education acheivement not on form school children but fully mature adults.
Also the figures were across the board not ingroup. But even using ingroup form school children your source still shows something you neglected to share or else hastily overlooked:
quote: The girls from black African backgrounds did better than white boys: 56.1% getting five good GCSEs compared with 52.6%.
quote:Originally posted by Obenga:
Likewise Nigerians have proven themselves of high intelligence (don't know which if any specific ethnies other than southerners in general) by being the cream of Britains higher educational crop outranking the supposedly superior sizewise and convolution far east Asian brain -- not to mention ol' Emeagwali (sp) the computer brain in tandem himself.
The stuff about the Nigerians sounds excellent, be even more pleased if you post that info..Thanx.
As usual Chinese youngsters, though relatively few in number (2,226), had the highest attainment - 79.3% getting five good GCSEs.
The figure for Indian pupils was 71.4%.
I am happy to find out you have an update on these figures from 2006 showing Nigerians in britain top these two groups out.....sweet, pass the info along, the Nigerian parents of my pupils will enjoy this news as much as I will.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Lamin says: ''Whatever differences that human groups demonstrate in terms of abstraction and conceptualization is easily explained by education--i.e. the transmission of intellectual skills.''
Education as the driving force behind intellectual skills isn't the complete answer in my opinion. Certainly the education aspect plays a vital role as it stimulates further intellectual pursuits, but if the cognitive skills aren't there to begin with then education isn't the answer for some groups but individuals within who possess the intellectual skills beforehand. So education as a stand alone entity can't be the answer; it's just a motivator.
I agree with (most of) the below. Lamin: ''Example: Europeans have been in Europe for at least 35,000 years yet they were taught reading and writing only in the last 2,000 years-- and only a very tiny minority as in the cases of Greece and Rome. But in the last 400 years their dominant classes have taken intellectual skills very seriously and have nurtured such more than any other groups. The result is that Europe and its settlements in the other continents are today responsible for some 80% of the world's intellectual output--in all areas.''
You say the Europeans were 'taught' reading and writing. By whom? I'm simply curious. There is no sarcasm on my part. If they were taught all this in such short order where did the teachers go? Where did they come from? All I'm asking on this one is if something is to be learned then someone has to be the teacher; that's why I say intellectualism precedes education. How far back the predecessor is I don't have a clue.
Your ''that is not the case today'' should be perplexing to large groups of people considering the extremely short duration of the European appearance.
I believe I alluded to this fact on another thread a couple of weeks ago but only in a passing comment.
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
Grumman, with so many other interesting topics here, especially those concerned with the subject of ancient Egypt, why do you only write the couple of threads dealing specifically with "race"??
Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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