Ok so if the Egyptians were not white or European looking why are questions about it relevant to the discussion?
Duh, because they [the questions you intentionally misread] are asking you to validate your claim, which to repeat...
But in case, you wish to disown your claims, here they are in not one, but two occasions:
Promoting the Berlin bust as the "authentic" definitive image of ancient Egypt, in other words, white with European looking features. - Doug M
And...
Again, nothing in that statement reflects ANYTHING about how I PERSONALLY view the statue. But to be clear, YES that ONE statue does have features that look WHITE and European looking, mainly because of the color. Of course, I don't believe that is how she actually looked in real life either. - Doug M
^Caught red handed, and the thus far evaded questions are fully justified, contrary to what your toadies say.
quote:Doug M:
You ask, what is European looking. I say, looking like Europeans, which would scientifically involve the common phenotypical characteristics of Europeans, like white skin among other features. Straightforward enough.
Okay, you don't know what European looking entails, even though you used it. The answer is indeed straightforward.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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It is also obvious you have nothing better to do than drone on and on about nothing.
Seems to me only you are the one who is stuck on the words European looking, as if YOU don't know what it means. The point is meaningless. There WERE NO indigenous African White European looking people in ancient Egypt other than a minority of foreigners. Therefore, once again, instead of pretending you are pointing out something about my post that isn't there, you need to learn to read and understand what is being said which is:
WHITES, Europeans and other RACISTS who want to take Egypt out of Africa point at the features of the Berlin bust as being typical of WHITES and Europeans, not blacks and Africans, which is WHAT I said.
If you don't know what white and European looking is than go find out yourself, because it wasn't intended to be a scientific observation, but an observation of the nonsense that Europeans and other WHITES make about Egyptian art and the ancient population.
Posts: 8896 | Registered: May 2005
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It is also obvious you have nothing better to do than drone on and on about nothing.
If it were nothing, you would have validated your statement already with ease.
quote:Doug M:
Seems to me only you are the one who is stuck on the words European looking, as if YOU don't know what it means. The point is meaningless.
If I used any word, rest assured that I'd know what it meant, and I would be *able* to fully define it to anyone who so chooses to request it, but apparently the same can't be said of you.
Let me know, when you've gotten a clue about the words you lightly toss around.
Ps -
Asking for validation of your terms is no less legitimate than requesting the same for a person who comes along and states that some ancient Egyptian personality is "Arab-looking" in so and so rendition.
Your incessant spoutings about some supposed conspiracy in protecting White Supremacists is actually funny, considering that you're the one who is repeating after them, without critical thinking.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Shangri-La Publications and Shangrila Gifts and Art are pleased to announce the discovery of a long forgotton gypsum bust of the Amarna Period Egyptian Queen Nefertiti, from a private estate in Berlin Germany, rescued from the World War II bombings of Adolf Hitler's private museum.
OVERVIEW
While for 90 years Egypt and Germany have been fighting for possession of one publically known and famous bust of this stunning Egyptian queen from the Amarna period, the sculpture of Nefertiti (Nofretete), whose name means "the beautiful one has come," from Adolf Hitler's own collection has gone unnoticed because it was held privately.
This study explores the questions of provenance and identity of this intriguing artifact. Queen Nefertiti is certainly one of the most famous women in history. She was wife of the unusual New Kingdom Pharoah, Akhnaton, and aunt of the famous boy Tutankhamum (King Tut). Is Hitler's private Nefertiti bust a recent copy or an antiquity in disguise? If the former, of which bust is it a copy and if the latter, how does this new portrait fit within the context of the other Nefertiti portraits from Tell Amarna?
ADOLPH HITLER AND NEFERTITI
It is no secret that Adolf Hitler was smitten with love for the ancient Egyptian queen Khenemet Nefertiti Hedjet. In 1933, the Egyptian government made the first of many demands over the decades for Nefertiti's return. Among his many titles Hermann Goering was premier of Prussia (which included Berlin) and, as such, Goering suggested to King Fouad I of Egypt that Nefertiti would soon be back in Cairo in exchange for political alliances between Germany and Egypt.
But Hitler had other plans. Through the ambassador to Egypt, Eberhard von Stohrer, Hitler informed the Egyptian government that he was an ardent fan of Nefertiti: "I know this famous bust," the fuehrer wrote. "I have viewed it and marveled at it many times. Nefertiti continually delights me. The bust is a unique masterpiece, an ornament, a true treasure!"
Hitler said Nefertiti had a place in his dreams of rebuilding Berlin and renaming it Germania. "Do you know what I'm going to do one day? I'm going to build a new Egyptian museum in Berlin," Hitler went on. "I dream of it. Inside I will build a chamber, crowned by a large dome. In the middle, this wonder, Nefertiti, will be enthroned. I will never relinquish the head of the Queen." Hitler and his mad dreams are long dead. But Nefertiti continues to smile serenely. As she has for 3,300 years. As if to say, this too shall pass but I endure.
Which bust of Nefertiti was Hitler refering to remains a mystery, since there were several in Berlin at the time. It is likely that he was writing about the public famous bust, but he controlled an entire collection of Nefertiti portraits all excavated by Ludwig Borchardt and financially sponsored by Dr. James Simon (1851-1932), a Jewish Berlin merchant, through the Deutsche Orient-Gesellschaft expedition to Amarna in Middle Egypt in 1907 and 1911 to 1914. Borchardt was the director of the Deutsche Institut in Kairo from 1906 to 1929, after which he returned to Germany. In 1938 he moved to Paris. James Simon has recently been honored in Germany for his contributions to Egyptology and his descendants who survived the holocaust live in England and Beverly Hills, California.
Nefertiti was the daughter of Ay (who would become pharaoh after the death of her husband) and Tiye II. She had one sister, Mutnodjmet (who would marry Pharaoh Horemheb). At Shangri-La, we have recently pieced together another facet in Adolph Hitler's obsession with the ancient Egyptian Queen Nefertiti, here made public for the first time.
THE FAMOUS BERLIN BUST OF NEFERTITI
When most people think of "Nefertiti" they recall the famous wayward beauty who recently moved again, not back to Egypt, but across town from a converted guard house in what used to be West Berlin to more royal surroundings in the heart of the reunited Berlin.
The painted limestone and plaster bust, depicting the elegantly chiseled life-sized features of a stunningly beautiful woman wearing a unique blue headdress of the goddess Tefnut, whose identity/duties she took on in the fourth year of her husbands reign, has formed the cornerstone of Berlin's Egyptian collection since German archaeologists discovered it in the ruins of Djhutmose's art studio on the Nile banks in 1912.
The sculptor Djhutmose (Thutmosis) has achieved world-wide fame for this bust of Queen Nefertiti, the wife of the "Heretic Pharaoh" Akhenaton (Ekhnaton). But what many do not know is that this 3,300-year-old bust of 18th Dynasty Nefertiti was only one of many great masterpieces of ancient Egyptian art depicting the same person and from the same artist's workshop. According to archaeological field records, she was found in Building P. 47, Room 19 of the atelier of the sculptor Thutmosis. In his studio were found 30 additional realistic busts and plaster models, showing the queen in slightly different ways.
An alluring mystery surrounded the bust since its discovery on 7 December 1912, incredibly intact and sporting vibrant colors, after lying in forgotten in the sands since the tumultuous days at the close of the reign of Pharaoh Akhenaton, one of the most enigmatic rulers of all time. Nefertiti, having rested for 3,200 years in the desert, was awoken to a new world full of passions and struggles. In 1913, the Ottoman Empire supposedly allowed its finder, part-time German-Jewish archaeologist and full-time entrepreneur, James Simon, to retain possession of the bust. But some have claimed that he and Borchardt hid the bust from official view. In either case, Simon carted it off to Europe and displayed Nefertiti prominently in his Berlin home, then he lent it to the Berlin museum and finally donating it in 1920 to the Berlin collection.
The Nefertiti collection initially was housed at the Neues Museum (New Museum) just a few meters from the Hohenzollern Palace in the heart of Berlin. Reflecting the fashion of the times, the museum itself was decorated to resemble an ancient Egyptian temple, complete with hieroglyphic inscriptions.
But as bombs rained down on Berlin during World War II, curators hastily stashed the city's art treasures at warehouses outside the city. After the war, some of those warehouses turned out to be in East Germany, and others in West Germany.
The famous Nefertiti portrait ended up in the west and took up residency in West Berlin's makeshift Egyptian museum in a converted guard house across the street from Charlottenburg Palace. But the bulk of the Berlin Egyptian collection remained in the east, and was on view at the Bode Museum in East Berlin until the Berlin Wall came down.
Since then, the city has been working to renovate and even rebuild the 19th Century museum complex. But what did Nefertiti really look like in real life? To what extend was she really the ideal image of beauty as depicted in the famous bust? How much had the artist Thutmosis deviated from her actual appearence to render his concept of artistic perfection? This newly discovered portrait bust may reveal much to answer these questions.
The portrait bust currently in the Shangri-La collection and formerly from a private collection in Berlin is a unique item with an official stamp on its base of the Nazi museum, in Berlin. The work may have been intended for the Haus der Deutschen Kunst, in Munich. There appears to be a runic "AH" followed by 537 carved on the base. Similar runic "AH" monograms were placed on personal items belonging to Adolf Hitler and the numbers 537 could be a registration number or refer to a date in 1937, the year that museum opened. Hitler's photographer Heinrich Hoffmann and museum director Karl Kolb were in charge of choosing art works for annual exhibits, but it is unclear how this piece could have related. Alternatively, this work could have been hidden away as part of Hitler's planned for National Socialist museum of art in the Austrian city of Linz; a dream that was never fully realized by the Fuehrer, although many thousands of art works were obtained for the project. The Linz museum project remains one of World War II's most enduring mysteries, but there is no indication that Hitler's Nefertiti ever left Berlin, until recently.
In 1943, Hitler created the Sonderauftrag Linz (Special Assignment Linz) to set up an art collection for the Austrian city of the same name on the Danube river. Almost exclusively financed by funds earned through sales of Hitler's book Mein Kampf and from special stamps showing his portrait, the Linz collection was mostly the Fuehrer's private project.
of Adolf Hitler, perhaps as one of many used as gifts for close friends. However, the bust is made of soft calcite, covered in gypsum plaster and several layers of pigment and constructed in a manner consistant with ancient Egyptian technologies. Furthermore, we have been unable to identify any known original sculpture of Nefertiti that has the exact same features as this portrait bust. Most strikingly, when compared with other known portrait busts, this work is more life like than others and has features that appear to have been used in different ways in the other renderings. Finally, the left ear lobe appears to have some type of ear plug, while the right ear has a hole. As a result of these observations, we are now speculating that this piece is a rendering from a life mask of Queen Nefertiti, instead of an artistic rendering. The piece in our posession is either an original first generation sculpture based on a life mask made in ancient Egypt or an expertly crafted copy of such a piece that was lost in WWII and made in Nazi Germany. In the second possibility, it would appear that the original has been lost or destroyed and we are fortunate to possess this expertly crafted copy. Finally, the plaster in the base which has the Nazi impression is chipping loose from the rest of the sculpture and is composed of a different type of material from the sculpture itself. It therefore seems that the Nazi impression was added subsequent to the sculpture's production and that the sculpture could reasonably be a previously lost art treasure from New Kingdom Egypt.
To the left and right, are images of a granite bust also from the workshop of Amarna sculptor Thutmosis. It resembles the new realistic bust in that the face is rather elongated and the features are delicate. However this granite face is far more symetrical and the features are considerably more defined. In part, these were factors of the medium used, a hard stone, but it is clear that the artist has also idealized and standardized features. The chin is not as pronounced as the newly discovered sculpture, the eyes are too similar to each other, and the neck has been elongated.
Below, another granite rendering of Nefertiti, now in the Cairo Museum, Egypt, depicts this queen with a much broader face and wider mouth, however the eyes closely resemble the newly discovered sculpture from Hitler's private collection. The nose and proportions of the upper face are also very similar.
Taken together, these two very different granite carvings both reveal features found in the naturalistic bust. They also depart in radically different directions of idealized artistic convention...
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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In-depth intuition, built on the foundation of spirituality and intellect wins all the time!
I am not surprised with the revealing information above, but it does make me wonder the depth of lies and deceit many of these so-called specialists have dwelled in, in their short, specially-civilized, history. It also prompted me to cite a recent quote of mine:
"So yes, I am well aware that authentic Black African artifacts (and other people’s stolen cultural artifacts) are in the hand Europeans. European specialists just create fake versions of authentic works they deem most important and world shaping."
It is impossible to be obsessed with the truth for such pure entity presents no negative results or effects on its own except in the possible form of usage of such an entity outside itself.
Posts: 213 | From: New York City, USA | Registered: Sep 2007
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^ To Kemson: Of course all of this is not conclusive yet until the Berlin bust is studied in full. I doubt the German authorities will let that happen. You are correct that Europeans have indeed created forgeries of Egyptian artifacts. A perfect example would be the Tetisheri piece that fooled Egyptologists and museum curators for years.
But you are still nuts to deny the countless European artifacts from Greece as being 'frauds' when there was virtually no attempts at forgery. Perhaps because the Classical Greeks as Europeans did look European.
quote:Originally posted by Nefar: this is starting to upset me...
and what Hawass said "these mummies are not royal and of no importance"
shocking statement. he should be ashamed.
Indeed. Shouldn't all Egyptian mummies be important regardless of whether they were royal or not?! I wonder...
quote:Originally posted by Keins: Probably all the Egyptian mummies that the thinks are too, "Nubian" looking!...LOL
LOL Perhaps. Or he just views the Nefertiti bust to be more valuable than actual remains of people. Which to me is very upside down. Human remains should be more valuable than any art piece.
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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