I haven't posted here for a long time. Been busy with personal stuff like travelling the world and getting engaged but I often pop in to read something that actually makes sense on the Internet, now and again (Egyptsearch rules! ).
However, I have been stirred recently and I just had to get in touch with y'all.
Please forgive me if this has already been discussed (and feel free to forward me to the relevant thread).
Now, I was once a "Christian" and don't hold dogmatic beliefs and I'm quite open to other religions (though I subscribe to none at the moment) and even read up much about other faiths like Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism etc. However, I have never been able to shake the conviction that there is a Creator/God/Supreme-Being-Entity/Whatever! that created the world as we know it.
My question is: WHAT DO Y'ALL THINK ABOUT THIS BOOK'S PROPOSITION THAT THE CREATOR CONCEPT IS A DELUSION???
I would really appreciate it if time tested posters like Djehuti, Rasol, Doug M, Supercar, Ausar etc would say something as I highly value their opinions because they have brought me much (priceless) enlightenment in the past couple of years.
Looking forward to the banter
PEACE
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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Okay, so I haven't read the book but I was wondering if anyone here has [read it] and has insightful comments about it. I can't lie that I'm about to read it either, as I have at least 20 odd books I've piled up over the last few months that I MUST READ.
I dig that the guy is an atheist, but what makes his argument so compelling that everyone in my office is becoming an atheist?
I'm on the first page of "The Divine Proportion by H.E. Huntley", I hope it's useful...
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Young H*O*R*U*S: ^lol What's with the Margaret Tatcher (or some other English "notable") picture???
No, I'm not marrying an English woman if that's what you're implying. My Divine Lady is from Guyana
Nigeria + Guyana = Young Horus + Young Isis
But Isis was Horus's mother! LOL
Perhaps a better analogy would be young Horus + young Hathor.
One of Hathor's many epithets was the 'Golden Lady' and for all purposes the Greeks equated her to their Aphrodite.
She was a cow goddess, so maybe you could do like the poster 'Red,White, and Blue + Christian' and call her "my red cow" rather my "golden cow"! LOL In the ancient world this would probably be a compliment, but these days it would be taken derogatory!
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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One of the main arguments against the existence of a benevolent God is probably the problem of evil - the existence of evil, suffering and poverty in the world. Another argument against God is the argument from poor design. It is based on the following premise: An omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent creator God would create organisms that have optimal design. Organisms have features that are suboptimal. Therefore, God either did not create these organisms or is not omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent.
Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Floods, Wars, Earth Quakes, Cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases and serious body malfunctions? There are 12,000 known diseases that affect and punish mankind indiscriminately. Why does he permit millions of both young and old to starve to death or die of miserable diseases? Why punish millions of INNOCENT CHILDREN in this horrible way?
Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally "innocent children" to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a fully developed brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.? Why are some born idiots and others with super intelligence? Why are some born into wealth and others pauper poor? Why does he permit over 2,000,000 innocent children to die of starvation every year? Why are his human creations designed to deteriorate into a miserable and devastating old age regardless of their religious affiliation?
God supposedly created the world like it is, to punish man for Adam and Eve's 'original sin'. Why does he also punish supposedly innocent children and animals with thousands of diseases, birth defects, starvation and to be eaten by other animals?
Why did this all powerful and loving creator create things like sharks, jelly fish, octopus, lions, tigers, rhinoceros, wolves, poisonous snakes, stinging and poisonous insects, poisonous plants etc.? Why did this caring and benevolent god create animals (including man) that need to painfully kill and eat other animals to survive?
World War I claimed 9,000,000 lives of people of many religious faiths.
World II indiscriminately claimed over 20,000,000 lives of people of all ages and religious faiths, plus a vast destruction of property and more millions maimed for life.
The recent Asian Tsunami has claimed the lives of 200,000 men, women and children of all religious persuasions. Over 100,000 of these were totally INNOCENT children!
There were three major epidemics of the Bubonic Plaque - in the 6th, 14th. and 17th centuries. The death toll was over 137 million men, women and totally innocent children.
The influenza of 1918-1919 killed at least 25 million men, women and innocent children indiscriminately.
Diseases like malaria, AIDS, tuberculosis, etc. maim and kill millions indiscriminately every year. More millions die of starvation and malnutrition.
These indiscriminately afflicted the young and old, atheists and those of all religious persuasions.
Meanwhile MAN, not god, has developed defenses and cures for hundreds of serious diseases. Man has learned to create shelter, heat and cooling, purify water, world wide electronic communications, power and transportation systems including flying through the air.
Man has created a wonderful medical and drug system and improved housing and food production. The result of MAN'S inventiveness has DOUBLED the average life span. None of this was created by any gods.
Perhaps your loving and caring god is actually a cruel, heartless, mean and torturing tyrant. If he treats us so cruelly during life, why do you think he will let us enjoy peace and eternal happiness in his Heaven? And why does he keep all this a secret by preventing communication with our dead parents, siblings and friends? (Or this god?)
There are thousands of different religious and god beliefs but NO OJECTIVE VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE for the actual existence of ANY of these gods. ALL god beliefs are based on the unsubstantiated 'opinions and claims of errant men.
If there is a god that created the Universe, he is obviously not an all-caring and benevolent god. Nor is he an "Intelligent Designer". The objective evidence is if there is a god creator, he has NO concern about the welfare of the creatures on Earth.
The objective evidence is that no gods created man but quite the opposite; that man created gods!
I challenge god believers to supply any objective verifiable evidence that their god actually exists except in their overactive imaginations.
Posts: 118 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Young H*O*R*U*S: ^lol What's with the Margaret Tatcher (or some other English "notable") picture???
No, I'm not marrying an English woman if that's what you're implying. My Divine Lady is from Guyana
Nigeria + Guyana = Young Horus + Young Isis
But Isis was Horus's mother! LOL
Perhaps a better analogy would be young Horus + young Hathor.
One of Hathor's many epithets was the 'Golden Lady' and for all purposes the Greeks equated her to their Aphrodite.
She was a cow goddess, so maybe you could do like the poster 'Red,White, and Blue + Christian' and call her "my red cow" rather my "golden cow"! LOL In the ancient world this would probably be a compliment, but these days it would be taken derogatory!
lol dude, you never seize to crack me up (in a good way). It is ever refreshing to see someone of such immense knowledge who hasn't lost touch with their inner child
Yes, I think I'll go with Hathor then. I actually thought Isis is also Horus's wife (and Horus is sort of the young Osiris, or maybe not?). And, I don't think "cow" befits my divine lady, she is actually a beautiful (UK bred) black/asian/native south American zahir of divine proportion .
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Player 13: I can only give you my opinion...
Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Floods, Wars, Earth Quakes, Cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases and serious body malfunctions? There are 12,000 known diseases that affect and punish mankind indiscriminately. Why does he permit millions of both young and old to starve to death or die of miserable diseases? Why punish millions of INNOCENT CHILDREN in this horrible way?
Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally "innocent children" to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a fully developed brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.? Why are some born idiots and others with super intelligence? Why are some born into wealth and others pauper poor? Why does he permit over 2,000,000 innocent children to die of starvation every year? Why are his human creations designed to deteriorate into a miserable and devastating old age regardless of their religious affiliation?
...
The objective evidence is that no gods created man but quite the opposite; that man created gods!
...
MY THEORY/CONVICTION:
BECAUSE THIS CREATOR/GOD IS YOU/ME...
THE INTELLIGENT (BUT SOMETIMES FORGETFULL) DESIGNER.
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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Yeah I might just post it there but I was hoping for some academic/logical insight (which this section is notable for), not looking for too much speculation.
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Carl Zimmer claimed that, given the low explanatory power of VMAT2, it would have been more accurate for Hamer to call his book A Gene That Accounts for Less Than One Percent of the Variance Found in Scores on Psychological Questionnaires Designed to Measure a Factor Called Self-Transcendence, Which Can Signify Everything from Belonging to the Green Party to Believing in ESP, According to One Unpublished, Unreplicated Study.
One of the main arguments against the existence of a benevolent God is probably the problem of evil - the existence of evil, suffering and poverty in the world.
Depends on what you think the implications of "suffering", "pain", and "evil" are.
For instance, some might view life as a microscopic part in an ongoing cycle, reincarnating again and again, and thus, death not being an evil - just a mechanism.
A perfect Utopian society, would definitely yield some spoiled fruits, unless, free will were to be taken away...
which could be considered a true evil.
Pain... a mechanism to avoid death. I know I'd rather feel pain than numbness. I a boy, sometimes I wanted to pound something, karate chop something, just to feel something, which could explain my love of football.
Evil is actually not opposite from innocence. Saddism is evil IMO -> inflicting these things (death pain) because you love to see people get hurt/ want them gone.
anyway...
Maybe a "Benevolent Creator" looks for the result rather than the process.
quote:Another argument against God is the argument from poor design. It is based on the following premise: An omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent creator God would create organisms that have optimal design. Organisms have features that are suboptimal. Therefore, God either did not create these organisms or is not omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent.
2)The not so perfect designs that humans have to try to correct. Example: conjoined twins. The question being how can a supposedly perfect being create such imperfection in physical(dwarfism, e.g) and moral(serial murderers and sadistic torturers, e.g.) design.
3)Pascal's wager. How do you bet?
But again, for most people it might just be psychologically necessary to believe in a Deity--because when serious tragedy strikes how else can one cope except with an "Inshalla".
Some evolutionary biologists argue too that humans might just be "hard-wired" to believe in some conscious Supreme Being or something like that.
A sad observation: in this world the people who pray the most seem to suffer the most and often dream of travelling to the lands where the people hardly or never pray.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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2)The not so perfect designs that humans have to try to correct. Example: conjoined twins. The question being how can a supposedly perfect being create such imperfection in physical(dwarfism, e.g) and moral(serial murderers and sadistic torturers, e.g.) design.
3)Pascal's wager. How do you bet?
But again, for most people it might just be psychologically necessary to believe in a Deity--because when serious tragedy strikes how else can one cope except with an "Inshalla".
Some evolutionary biologists argue too that humans might just be "hard-wired" to believe in some conscious Supreme Being or something like that...
The *alternative* would be to assume that the complexities of the universe, including the thus far undefined biological entity called "life" itself, the organization of complex single cells to form complex multicellular organisms, whose every biological element about them appears to be functionality, the penetration of certain UV Solar radiations into the earth's surface save for the most harmful of them all, and the list goes on, are all but *unguided* series of events or processess that basically amount to spectacular 'miracles'. Brings me back to thinking about what these fellows have been and still are up to: What is "Life"?: Scientists struggle to define life
The question is, given the 3 main points and additional points you've raised, what is *your* standpoint on the issue?
On additional note: Can't pass up the thought that in the case of various individuals, they may have arrived at the conclusion that a concious Supreme Being must be THE mastermind behind the existence of nature, primarily because this is what they were socially conditioned to think right from a very early age, and likely in combination with the points you made about a means to 'cope with tragedy' or adversity and being "hard-wired". Keeping that in mind, do you think that every individual who perceives of a supernatural intellectual intervention behind the bringing-into-being of the Universe and its complex components, necessarily meet the conditions you've mentioned; OR ELSE that for some - at least in their minds, that there is more to it than that, which is that they have actually put some long and hard thought to this - that supposedly goes beyond what they were merely told at a very young age, and have thus arrived at the conclusion that there must be intellectual intervention by a "Supreme being"...as so-proclaimed by the advocates of the likes of "intellegent design"?
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
First of all, we are not "hardwired" for belief in God. The Creator gives humans "free will". As a result, we have the right to believe or not believe in God on this plane.
To understand our search for god we must accept that We are here for a reason, and that this is not our home. A post at another site I once read can elaborate this point.
In this post the author discussed the idea of human existence and desire to pursue "Good" as either progressive via human agency, or the result of a forced introduction to the pursuit of "Good" as a result of God's introduction of the millennium of Christ rule when "good" will be the standard.
The author suggest that the best way for "Good" to be obtained by man is through force. Thus he writes a story about a teacher who has his class discuss the following problem:
"I often ask my students to imagine four families. One chooses to not have children. The second has children,but takes the infants to a surgeon and has brain surgery performed. This surgery prevents the children from ever rising to the point of being able to make wrong or evil choices. The third family raises their children in isolation from any danger or temptation.
The children stay at home, and never participate in sports or have friends. The last family has children, and allows them to grow up with skinned knees, choices, risks, mistakes and consequences. At one point, one of their children is badly injured in a bike accident. Which is these four families has the healthiest kind of love? Which of these four families most mirrors the relationship between God and human beings?"
To me the answer to this question is simple it is the last family that mirrors God's relationship to human beings. This most resembles our relationship to God because God is All and has made it clear that he has created three natures for our existence of entities on earth the "good" (Angels), the bad (demons, devils & etc.) and the free (human beings).
All religions make it clear that the Heavenly servants of their God, can do only good, the demons do evil, and mankind has the freewill to do good and evil. Thus when we read stories in the Bible we often read the term "We", in reference to God and his Angels performing miracles. In the Quran we also see this separation between Gods creations In Chapter 7 Al-A'raf verse 12-14 where we read: "And We [God and the Angels] indeed created you and then We gave you shape, then said We to the angels, 'Submit to Adam, and they all submitted. But Iblis did not; he will not be of those who submit. God said, 'What prevented thee?' He said, 'I am better than he. Thou has created me of fire while him hast Thou created of clay'. God said, 'Then go down hence, it is not for thee to be arrogant here. Get out; thou art certainly of those who are abased'.
This quote from the Quran makes it clear that Angels, are those beings who are obedient and true to God, while the evil doer is he who disobeys God. But eventhough evil and evil doers exist, evil has power only because God allows it. As a result, we read in the Book of Job 1:6-12 : " One day the Sons of God came to attend Yahweh, and among them was Satan. So Yahweh said to, 'Where have you been?' 'Around the earth'. he answered....So Yahweh asked him, 'Did you notice my servant Job? There is no one like him on earth: a sound and honest man who fears God and shuns evil'. 'Yes' said Satan, 'but Job is not God fearing for nothing is he? Have you not put a wall around him and his house and all his domain'....But stretch out your hand and a lay a finger on his possessions:I warrant you , he will curse you to your face'. 'Very well' Yahweh said to Satan, ' all he has is in your power. But keep you hands off his person'. After this Satan took away Job's lands and children, but Job remained faithful in God.
The important thing we should learn from this quote is that even Satan, leader of the evil camp obeys God, and in fact is his servant, why else would he be in attendance before God , on a "day the Sons of God came to attend Yahweh". The Book of Job, should make it clear to the reader that evil has no control of over man. God wants mankind to submit to him willingly and do Good. No because they are forced to do so, but because they desire to be Good in their heart, the center of man.
But the author of the article being discussed noted that: "(Sitaram continues):
It is the second family, which chooses to alter their children, which is of greatest interest to me." He feels that this family is most interesting because this family chose to: "The second has children, but takes the infants to a surgeon and has brain surgery performed. This surgery prevents the children from ever rising to the point of being able to make wrong or evil choices." Although he chose this family clearly this family would not mirror God's intended relationship between Himself and mankind. He does not chose the family God would probably chose. God would chose the third family, because he allows us free will so we can chose Good. Being the creator, he could make us do Good, but he wants us to attain "perfection" by chosing Good as our way.
The writer of this post wants God to do something he will never do: MAKE ONE GOOD SIMPLY to please HIM.
God has established order of the earth as pointed out by the Quranic verse already quoted. To exist on this plane we must make the choice Good or evil.
Members of the Kamitic-Nubia-Sumerian-Dravidian culture recognized this truth. As a result, when we read the Book of the Dead, the deceaed person declares he has led a good life in which he gave injury to no man. In the Indus Valley inscriptions the Harappans requested that their God, make their destiny a path of Good. These ancient people knew that God was the source for their experience and to earn his favor he must testify that he was his brother's keeper, by treating all mankind with kindness and Goodness. These ancient people had a strong faith in God and id not let religion lead them astray.
Thus we see in these civilizations many gods worshipped by the individual Ra, Amma, Siva, Kali and etc. These people did not worship all these Gods, they chose a name for their God, based on that god's presence. Thus a name for one's personal God, has nothing to do , with the name another person called their God. As a result, we had people worshiping the same God, with different names. Thus these people lived in unity and Order as demanded by God.
Religion on the otherhand casuse disunity. It is the name we give our God, according to our religion that causes this disunity. Thus we have followers of the Muslim religion enemies to followers of the Christian and Hindu religion. An even within these religions we see Shias vs Sunnis among the Muslims, and Catholics vs Protestants among the Christians.
One of my Heroes is Jesus. He is my hero because his coming allowed us to know two things: 1) we could pray directly to God, and 2) we could worship God anywhere anytime. The requirements to be a believer was just these two things.
Muhammad peace be upon him continued this tradition. He demanded that we recognize God, pray and serve Our fellow man. But his message has been lost and The various Muslim groups have made culture their Religion: going to mosque, wearing beards and etc.
There is no Christian religion, if we based this religion on Jesus. The religion we call Christianity, is based on the teaching of Paul, who took his "religion" to the West.
Christianity needs Paul, because Paul gave the religion an hierarchy: Leaders and followers. Master Jesus eliminated this order and taught the true life equation Man [Pray]+God.
In summary, man will not be able to know his God, unless he finds God on his own. Unity of mankind is the desire of God.
This unity can never be found until we abandon "religions", treat our fellow man with kindness and concern, and communicate directly with God, no matter what Name we Call Him. There is no easy way to attain union with the Creator.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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The problem with mankind is that most people don't know the Creator and truely believe in what he has alledgely said, that is relayed in the Holy Books they associate with their religion/faith.
All religions teach that if you ask for forgiveness, the creator forgives your "sins". If the Creator forgives us, who is left to judge us?
The answer is simple you judge yourself. This is bad.
It is bad because you will be a merciless judge of yourself, because you know you and what you have done. To remedy this situation humans have to learn to forgive others so they can forgive themselves.
Members of the Nubia Kametian Sumerian Dravidian (NKSD) Civilizations recognized this reality. This is why they made a point of acknowledging that they had done no wrong. By attempting to do no wrong to others they could forgive those who attacked them--and also forgive themselves. You see in forgiving others we learn to forgive ourselves so that when the day of judgment comes we will judge ourselves fairly.
.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
What is the character of the soul among the Kametians, Sumerians, Olmecs and Dravidians. For purposes of this paper we will call the Sumerians, Olmecs and Dravidians Kushites, since the ancestors of these people lived in the Highland Areas of Middle Africa: the Proto-Sahara, and practiced a culture and civilization –as typified by the rock art in the region--similar to that of the C-Group people. Below we discover the ultimate objective of the Kushite for the soul to become pure or white.
If this is correct in this interpretation of the Kametian-Sumerian- Kushite-Dravidian view of man’s soul it should be present in the languages of these people. To test this hypothesis we will discuss the culture terms from these languages related to the term ‘soul’.
In most of these languages the basic ideas about purity and the soul is indicated by two words ba/pa and or bo/po, with the possible addition of an / l / or /r/ as a final element to these monosyllabic terms.
We learn from the Meroitic inscriptions that the Kushites sought Goodness and hoped that their goodness would both help them reach Home, and maybe remain in the world to help others learn the reality of their existence, i.e., doing good for goodness sake. See:
We learn from the seals of the Dravidian speaking Harappans that they sought righteousness and a spotlessly pure mind, for purity of mind was the sine quo non for happiness within. You can find out more about Harappan religion and writing at the following sites: http://www.geocities.com/olmec982000/Indus.html
Tolkappiyam makes it clear that in Tamil pa(l), denoted Karma. In Sangam times pal was considered the sum and the consequences of a person’s action, i.e., his Fate or destiny. Tiruvallur used pal to denote Fate or the Law of Nature. K. Appadurai, in the Mind and Thoughts of Tiruvallur, noted that pal in its external form is the veda, or word of God that makes everything perfect, undying, everlasting and that forever grows, and is growing internal Bliss. The fact that pal represents that undying and perfect aspect of man corresponds to Loga’s interpretation of the Kushite view of the soul reflected that this aspect of man was both eternal and perfect.
In Dravidian we also find that in addition to pal meaning “Fate”, it also meant distribution, while pala in Tamil means ‘many and diverse’. The Tamil concept of pal corresponds to that of the Sumerians. In Sumerian we find the word bar . Bar has several meanings including ‘soul’ and ‘white’.The view here that the bar is both the soul and also something that is white or pure corresponds favorably to pal the Tamil conception of that aspect of man which is both everlasting and pure.
The Dravidians and Mande people who founded the Shang and Xia civilizations, respectively in China, also took the concept that the soul was pure to the Mongoloid Chinese people. We know very little about the sounds of ancient Chinese because Ancient Chinese was different from Old Chinese and Middle Chinese and the modern Chinese dialects. (Ramsey 1987, pp.137-138) This results from the fact that the Chinese dynasties were founded by diverse ethnic groups e.g., Xia and Shang li (i.e., Black Shang) were founded by Dravidian and Manding speakers. Shang-Yin was founded by classical mongoloids, and the Zhou by the contemporary Chinese. ) This explains the difference in pronunciation for Ancient Chinese spoken by the Xia and Shang peoples who were Africans and Dravidians formerly belonging to the C-Group people of Middle Africa, and Old and Middle Chinese or a variant there of, which was probably spoken by the Zhou and later Mongoloid Chinese people. See: http://geocities.com/olmec982000/xia.htm
The Shang characters compare favorably to the ancient Proto- Saharan script used by the Harappans in the Indus Valley and the Manding script used in the ancient Sahara and Crete . Winters (1985c) outlined the spread of the Proto-Saharan script to Harappa, and throughout Saharan Africa and Asia by the Dravidians and Manding. http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Bay/7051/anwrite.htm
Evidence of Chinese writing first appears around 2000 B.C. as pottery marks. The shell-and-bone characters represented writing they were not pictures. The Shang symbols compare favorably with ancient Manding symbols.
In Chinese the term for ‘white’ is bai, while the term for ‘soul’ is bo. Because the pronounciation of Chinese has changed over the centuries because of the frequent conquest of the ‘country’ by diverse people since the fall of the Xia and Shang civilizations Chinese researchers have developed many theories to explain the origin of bai in Chinese for the terms white (and soul). Some scholars believe that bai , may have got its meaning for white, from bo ‘soul’, through the idea that soul, represents emptiness . I believe that this view for the origin of bai , may be wrong. This results from the fact that many people have attempted to use bai, in relation to its association with humans and ethnic groups to describe these people as literally white. Thus they may translate bai ren as “white men/man”.
During Zhou, times many Dravidians (Shang) and Xia (Mande) people were sacrificed by the Mongoloid Chinese. Theses people were later called li Qiang ‘Black Qiang’ by the Zhou. In many of the oral bone inscriptions of the Zhou we see the phrase bai Qiang, some Chinese researchers have translated this phrase as “white Qiang”. This interpretation is probably wrong. The fact that bai, is related to ‘soul’ and ‘white’ suggest that bai Qiang, may be interpreted as “holy Qiang” or “Pure Qiang”, in reference to the sacrifice of Qiang religious men during Zhou rituals.
This belief in sacrificing Qiang (Dravidians and Mande) by the Zhou to obtain blessing from their gods, may correspond to the popularity during the lated 19th Century and first half of the 20th Century of burning and lynching blacks by the KKK as a form of ritual sacrifice of Blacks to purify the white racists of the American South and Midwest. This suggest that just as bar in Sumerian meant both ‘soul’ and ‘white’, bai and bo had similar meanings because they entered the Chinese language via the Dravidians and Mande who founded Chinese civilization.
The view that the soul is pure, appears to have also been the belief of the Olmec people. The Olmec people of Mexico are considered to be the “Mother Civilization” of all Meso-American civilizations. The Olmec called themselves Xi (Shi), they spoke a language similar to Malinke-Bambara which is a member of the Mande family of languages. It is interesting to note that the symbol for bai in Chinese, is a box.
Among the Olmec the box shaped symbol is pronounced po ‘pure, superlative of white and clean’, just as in the Mande languages. Among the Olmec the term bo meant ‘ spirit, principal of life, great, moral gradeur and ghost’. The identification of the Olmec representation of ‘white, pure and spirit (which may denote an aspect of man akin to soul)’ as po/ bo highlights Loga’s identification of the Kushite concept of this aspect of man as both the soul and purity/ white.
In conclusion, although their are different contemporary pronunciations ba/pa and bo/po , along with the symbols used to represent these words in Chinese and Olmec writing, they have the same meaning and shape. This suggest a genetic relationship between the idea of the soul as pure among the Kametians-Dravidians-Olmecs-Mande-Sumerians. The present pronunciation of the Chinese symbols probably has little relationship to the ancient pronunciation of Chinese spoken in Xia and Shang times when these characters were first used, but the recovery of the actual meaning of these words from looking at Olmec and Tamil, make it clear that Chinese bai did not come from emptiness, it obtained its meaning from the recognition that bo represents the soul’s migration to attain purity.
This cognation of specialized terms for soul, and white; and the writing systems supports the proposed Dravidian and Manding migration and settlement of ancient Sumer, Mexico , China during Xia times and the Indus Valley. It was in these diverse geographical areas that the Kushites left their recognition that the soul is pure.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
I believe all animals have the same sense of wonder when they look out upon the world and see its complexity and beauty. Even the harsh reality and ugliness of the world have their own splendor when it is not the observer who has to deal with the consequences or live with the view.
Humans have language to put such ideas into a form that can be communicated. I believe it is this language itself and the imposition of a mode of functioning on much of the brain and most of the mind which defines and leads to the concept of a deity. Furthermore there is additional beauty which can be found in logical and mathematical constructs that imply a greater consciousness or even a creator; the beauty of scientific concepts and understanding of systems which seem to have an intelligence as their base.
It is language and its results which give rise to theology. As evidence consider that our species did not engage in uniquely human activities until after the advent of language. It is our supersized speech center which has led to our interest in deities and it is leaders of various stripe who desire to influence which specific deities are worshipped. Just as the tower of babel disordered the language it equally disordered theology.
Posts: 393 | From: NW Indiana, US of A | Registered: Aug 2006
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This is assuming one has a 'need' to subscribe to the problem of evil being ''caused'' by an intelligent designer or God/s. I don't have this subscription to apology at all.
Lamin writes, in frustration, maybe justifiably so: 2)The not so perfect designs that humans have to try to correct. Example: conjoined twins. The question being how can a supposedly perfect being create such imperfection in physical(dwarfism, e.g) and moral(serial murderers and sadistic torturers, e.g.) design.
Assuming a Deity or whomever is responsible for the conjoined twins, among many other congenital abnormalities, plus the others mentioned, and it was done in a non-altruistic manner, then Lamin's query that a ''try to correct'' makes sense. But if the conjoined twins are fashioned from a lack of omniscience in that area, yet in an altruistic sense at the onset, then no explanation is needed as it regards a human correction attitude in the conjoined twins because it will have been outside the Deities expertise.
Lamin also assumes we humans have the ability, or will have the ability, at some future medical point, to correct the Deities' mistakes, if this is what they are. That said, I believe one day humanity will have this corrective ability.
3)Pascal's wager. How do you bet?
Pascal doesn't address what I've just said. I don't erroneously believe in anything. We are here. Either evolution or God did it, depending on one's view with nuances tacked onto the end of it. The God/s perspective doesn't take much to offer as a reasonable explanation—for some. On the other hand if one is locked into internalizing the explanation then there will always be a problem in terms of the 'whys.'
Mystery Solver says: OR ELSE that for some - at least in their minds, that there is more to it than that, which is that they have actually put some long and hard thought to this - that supposedly goes beyond what they were merely told at a very young age, and have thus arrived at the conclusion that there must be intellectual intervention by a "Supreme being"...as so-proclaimed by the advocates of the likes of "intellegent design"?
Yes.
Clyde Winters says: ''First of all, we are not "hardwired" for belief in God.''
This is a definitive and specific statement. Is there any way to prove humans aren't specifically hardwired?
''The Creator gives humans "free will". As a result, we have the right to believe or not believe in God on this plane.''
Then it's likely God will disagree with the free will he gives you once you make a decision to use it against his wishes. Seems to me free will should have been left alone, on that other plane of existence Winters spoke of.
Sam p wrote: ''It is language and its results which give rise to theology.''
I guess it would have been difficult to express theology without it.
''It is our supersized speech center which has led to our interest in deities...''
So evolution placed these supersized speech centers in humans just to have them talk about Deities?
''Just as the tower of babel disordered the language it equally disordered theology.''
... because someone had a bigger stick?
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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[bold][quote The question is, given the 3 main points and additional points you've raised, what is *your* standpoint on the issue?
On additional note: Can't pass up the thought that in the case of various individuals, they may have arrived at the conclusion that a concious Supreme Being must be THE mastermind behind the existence of nature, primarily because this is what they were socially conditioned to think right from a very early age, and likely in combination with the points you made about a means to 'cope with tragedy' or adversity and being "hard-wired". Keeping that in mind, do you think that every individual who perceives of a supernatural intellectual intervention behind the bringing-into-being of the Universe and its complex components, necessarily meet the conditions you've mentioned; OR ELSE that for some - at least in their minds, that there is more to it than that, which is that they have actually put some long and hard thought to this - that supposedly goes beyond what they were merely told at a very young age, and have thus arrived at the conclusion that there must be intellectual intervention by a "Supreme being"...as so-proclaimed by the advocates of the likes of "intellegent design"?
[/quote][/bold]
Humans being social animals are born into different cultural environments and aspects of those cultural environments deal with and offer answers concerning questions about the nature of reality. These questions arise because of the nature of human consciousness and the thinking that goes with it. The peculiarity of human consciousness--as distinct from other animals derives from the peculiarities of t he human brain that is the source of human consciousness. And more specifically the kind of consciousness of the human brain derives from its neocortex and the billions of connections and operations between neurons, synapses, dendrites, axions, etc.
The end result is that humans are endowed with the capacity for image-making(imagination), abstract thinking(as in going from reading symbols on paper to creating a distinct image in the mind), representational thinking(as in drawing, painting and sculpting forms already found in nature--and even embellishing such forms by using the imagination), concepts of space and time, concepts of cause and effect, concepts of right and wrong, good and bad, concepts of purpose, etc., all influenced by consciousness of the brain-derived emotions.
The human being is an evolutionary product of the material/empirical world along with any other life form but it is only the human brain that has attained the level of consciousness that is aware of the world in a way that none--to date--of the other life forms shares.
Thus, it is only the human being that is fully aware of its own mortality and has wondered and recorded on why things happen and the purposes and functions of things in general.
But the problem is that since the human brain is a product of the material environment bounded as it is in finite space and time--as it appears to humans, the brain cannot avoid imposing ultimate physical boundaries of time and space.
Given that events and phenomena seem--to the human brain--occur based on certain complex and systemic principles as if nature itself were consciously thinking as humans do then it followed that some humans developed the cultural tradition--passed on to others--of a conscious thinking agent/s who has/have caused the universe to exist and exist [b]within and outside of the material universe(everything that exists).
There have been a multiplicity of variations on the form and nature of this assumed consciously causative agent--most originally taking on idealized anthropomorphic(human-like) forms. The ultimate causative agents(aka "Gods") of the Ancient Egyptians, the Yoruba, the Greeks, the Hindus, etc. were essentially perfect versions of their creators. The sequentially triple monotheistic creations modeled on a version developed by the very imaginative Ancient Egyptians also followed this trend.
The upshot of this variation of the "ultimative causative agent" theme was that this supremely conscious agent bore a a special relationship with humans and was the ultimate interventionist arbiter in matters concerning, "right", "wrong", "good", "bad", "truth", "falsity", etc.
It as because of this special relationship between this conscious causative agent and humans that the serious questions concerning the issues of theodicy arose: how to explain the presence of suffering, injustice, wickedness, etc. in the world of humans.
The point is that humans--on account of t he kinds of brains they have-- have developed an intuitive sense of justice, injustice, rightness, wrongness, empirical truth, logical truth, etc. and are dismayed when other humans flout such principles just for their own advantage. The big question then became: how can the supreme causative agent who has imbued humans with the notions of "good" and "bad", "kindness" and "cruelty", "justice" and "injustice" permit such to occur without retribution.
The answers were as followed: 1) in the after-life the supreme caustaive agent will mete out justice and punishment, 2)the causatiev agent just set things in motion and did not create any special relationship with the humans as distinct from other phenomena, 3)the universe just exists and has always existed. No constituent entity has any special significance in the e xisting scheme of things, 4) genuine answers cannot be forthcoming because human thinking is limited by the structure of the human brain and the forms of consciousness that arises from such.
Humans are a peculiar life-form because all other life-forms are concerned with and have as their instinctive purpose 2 things: survival(with all it takes) and procreation(whose goal is to maximize environmental adaptability).
One possible solution is to keep exploring the seeming complexity of nature while pondering phenomena such as flowers, animals, symmetry, other humans, atoms, DNA molecules, the extent of the universe, cosmic singularities(black holes, etc.)human nature, animal nature, that evoke responses such as "awe", "admiration", "fear", "aversion", "truth", "falsity", etc. in the human consciousness.
In other words just keep trying to unravel the puzzle of consciouness with its received phenomena--including the human entity itself.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
There is no significant difference between the human brain than other animal brains. Elephants and other animals often have far larger brains. Men have larger brains than women (on average). The biggest difference is the speech center.
Even bacteria can communicate sufficiently to behave differently dependent on their numbers. Plants not only communicate but will attack invading or harmful species.
Humans are not materially different than other animals except in our use of language. It is language which shapes the way our brains are used and it is language which has made possible our technology. It was the invention of writing after some 40,000 years which speeded the rate of our technological advancement.
The evidence is everywhere and new data serves only to reinforce these observations.
-------------------- Men fear the pyramid, time fears man. Posts: 393 | From: NW Indiana, US of A | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: The *alternative* would be to assume that the complexities of the universe, including the thus far undefined biological entity called "life" itself, the organization of complex single cells to form complex multicellular organisms, whose every biological element about them appears to be functionality, the penetration of certain UV Solar radiations into the earth's surface save for the most harmful of them all, and the list goes on, are all but *unguided* series of events or processess that basically amount to spectacular 'miracles'. Brings me back to thinking about what these fellows have been and still are up to: [url=]What is "Life"?: Scientists struggle to define life[/url]
Yeah...
quote:On additional note: Can't pass up the thought that in the case of various individuals, they may have arrived at the conclusion that a concious Supreme Being must be THE mastermind behind the existence of nature, primarily because this is what they were socially conditioned to think right from a very early age, and likely in combination with the points you made about a means to 'cope with tragedy' or adversity and being "hard-wired". Keeping that in mind, do you think that every individual who perceives of a supernatural intellectual intervention behind the bringing-into-being of the Universe and its complex components, necessarily meet the conditions you've mentioned; OR ELSE that for some - at least in their minds, that there is more to it than that, which is that they have actually put some long and hard thought to this - that supposedly goes beyond what they were merely told at a very young age, and have thus arrived at the conclusion that there must be intellectual intervention by a "Supreme being"...as so-proclaimed by the advocates of the likes of "intellegent design"?
Exactly right Supercar/Mystery Solver.
The level of pompousness behind such an assumption of ignorance and tradition is a bit sickening.
I adhere thoughtlessly to no acclination without thoughtful scrutiny. Even the acclination that anybody with any sort of belief does not think for themselves, and if so does not think logically, free of bias, and stands at the opposite pole of say ... a scientist. Well... "at least in my mind", lol.
What's funny to me is I find that many aitheists put very little thought into their position, other than what they have heard.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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The point is that humans--on account of t he kinds of brains they have-- have developed an intuitive sense of justice, injustice, rightness, wrongness, empirical truth, logical truth, etc. and are dismayed when other humans flout such principles just for their own advantage. The big question then became: how can the supreme causative agent who has imbued humans with the notions of "good" and "bad", "kindness" and "cruelty", "justice" and "injustice" permit such to occur without retribution.
This easy to answer, there can not be good without evil. The whole world is a stage and we are players in this drama called life. A life drama created by the Creator when he wrote his great Book, the umm al-Kitab 'the sources of the commandments or life generally'.
The first thing you must understand is that order exist. Thus the Qur'an notes that "[Allah]......He guides therewith whom He pleases.....(39:24). It adds that "And if We had so willed, We could have transformed them in their places, they would not be able to move forward or turn back" (36:68)
This shows that we have the free will to believe or not believe and that our non believe fits the Creator's plan as much as our belief. This results from the fact that everything we do is in a great book. It is noted in the Book of Revelation:
I saw the dead , both great and small, standing in front of his throne, while the book of life was opened, and other books opened which were the record of what they had done in their lives, by which the dead were judged" (20:12).
The extent of the recordings in the Book is made clear in the Qur'an where we discover: "And Everything We recorded in a BooK" (78:30). It is also noted that:
There befall not any calamity either in the earth or in your own persons, but it is recorded in a Book before We bring it into being--surely, that is easy for Allah-(57:23).
This statement makes it clear that what we do to play the role we have chosen from the Book of the Creator, has already been written before we do it. IF it had been written before we came on this plane our actions can not be seen as good or bad from the point of view of the Creator and his angels, good and evil only exist on this plan which is from the imagination of the Creator who wrote the Book, from which we play our roles on Earth.
The fact that the holy writ make it clear that everything that happens is recorded in a book makes it clear why justice and injustice; good and evil exist on this plane. It exist because we--human-- are just playing various roles from the 'Great Book' carrying out the Creators plan for this world.
If this is true good and evil only exist on this plane and reality is an illusion since our pure existence before we decided to help the Creator carry out His plan did not entail good or evil. The roles we play as murderer or saint are roles necessary for the Book to be completed. As a result,they exist only to complete the Great Book. There is no retribution because everything that happens is suppose to heppen relative to the free-will of the individual--as he carries out his life role he chose to play from the Creators Book of Life on earth..
Thusly, thou shall not kill, but if it is part of your life role you may kill. The Creator can therefore not punish you if your behavior was a possibility pursuant to execution of your life plan.
quote: The question is, given the 3 main points and additional points you've raised, what is *your* standpoint on the issue?
On additional note: Can't pass up the thought that in the case of various individuals, they may have arrived at the conclusion that a concious Supreme Being must be THE mastermind behind the existence of nature, primarily because this is what they were socially conditioned to think right from a very early age, and likely in combination with the points you made about a means to 'cope with tragedy' or adversity and being "hard-wired". Keeping that in mind, do you think that every individual who perceives of a supernatural intellectual intervention behind the bringing-into-being of the Universe and its complex components, necessarily meet the conditions you've mentioned; OR ELSE that for some - at least in their minds, that there is more to it than that, which is that they have actually put some long and hard thought to this - that supposedly goes beyond what they were merely told at a very young age, and have thus arrived at the conclusion that there must be intellectual intervention by a "Supreme being"...as so-proclaimed by the advocates of the likes of "intellegent design"?
Humans being social animals are born into different cultural environments and aspects of those cultural environments deal with and offer answers concerning questions about the nature of reality. These questions arise because of the nature of human consciousness and the thinking that goes with it. The peculiarity of human consciousness--as distinct from other animals derives from the peculiarities of t he human brain that is the source of human consciousness. And more specifically the kind of consciousness of the human brain derives from its neocortex and the billions of connections and operations between neurons, synapses, dendrites, axions, etc.
The end result is that humans are endowed with the capacity for image-making(imagination), abstract thinking(as in going from reading symbols on paper to creating a distinct image in the mind), representational thinking(as in drawing, painting and sculpting forms already found in nature--and even embellishing such forms by using the imagination), concepts of space and time, concepts of cause and effect, concepts of right and wrong, good and bad, concepts of purpose, etc., all influenced by consciousness of the brain-derived emotions.
The human being is an evolutionary product of the material/empirical world along with any other life form but it is only the human brain that has attained the level of consciousness that is aware of the world in a way that none--to date--of the other life forms shares.
Thus, it is only the human being that is fully aware of its own mortality and has wondered and recorded on why things happen and the purposes and functions of things in general.
But the problem is that since the human brain is a product of the material environment bounded as it is in finite space and time--as it appears to humans, the brain cannot avoid imposing ultimate physical boundaries of time and space.
Given that events and phenomena seem--to the human brain--occur based on certain complex and systemic principles as if nature itself were consciously thinking as humans do then it followed that some humans developed the cultural tradition--passed on to others--of a conscious thinking agent/s who has/have caused the universe to exist and exist [b]within and outside of the material universe(everything that exists).
There have been a multiplicity of variations on the form and nature of this assumed consciously causative agent--most originally taking on idealized anthropomorphic(human-like) forms. The ultimate causative agents(aka "Gods") of the Ancient Egyptians, the Yoruba, the Greeks, the Hindus, etc. were essentially perfect versions of their creators. The sequentially triple monotheistic creations modeled on a version developed by the very imaginative Ancient Egyptians also followed this trend.
The upshot of this variation of the "ultimative causative agent" theme was that this supremely conscious agent bore a a special relationship with humans and was the ultimate interventionist arbiter in matters concerning, "right", "wrong", "good", "bad", "truth", "falsity", etc.
It as because of this special relationship between this conscious causative agent and humans that the serious questions concerning the issues of theodicy arose: how to explain the presence of suffering, injustice, wickedness, etc. in the world of humans.
The point is that humans--on account of t he kinds of brains they have-- have developed an intuitive sense of justice, injustice, rightness, wrongness, empirical truth, logical truth, etc. and are dismayed when other humans flout such principles just for their own advantage. The big question then became: how can the supreme causative agent who has imbued humans with the notions of "good" and "bad", "kindness" and "cruelty", "justice" and "injustice" permit such to occur without retribution.
The answers were as followed: 1) in the after-life the supreme caustaive agent will mete out justice and punishment, 2)the causatiev agent just set things in motion and did not create any special relationship with the humans as distinct from other phenomena, 3)the universe just exists and has always existed. No constituent entity has any special significance in the e xisting scheme of things, 4) genuine answers cannot be forthcoming because human thinking is limited by the structure of the human brain and the forms of consciousness that arises from such.
Humans are a peculiar life-form because all other life-forms are concerned with and have as their instinctive purpose 2 things: survival(with all it takes) and procreation(whose goal is to maximize environmental adaptability).
One possible solution is to keep exploring the seeming complexity of nature while pondering phenomena such as flowers, animals, symmetry, other humans, atoms, DNA molecules, the extent of the universe, cosmic singularities(black holes, etc.)human nature, animal nature, that evoke responses such as "awe", "admiration", "fear", "aversion", "truth", "falsity", etc. in the human consciousness.
In other words just keep trying to unravel the puzzle of consciouness with its received phenomena--including the human entity itself.
Let me frame my initial question this way:
Given the 3 main points and additional points you've raised, do *you* believe in a *supernatural* Supreme being?
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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The point is that humans--on account of t he kinds of brains they have-- have developed an intuitive sense of justice, injustice, rightness, wrongness, empirical truth, logical truth, etc. and are dismayed when other humans flout such principles just for their own advantage. The big question then became: how can the supreme causative agent who has imbued humans with the notions of "good" and "bad", "kindness" and "cruelty", "justice" and "injustice" permit such to occur without retribution.
This easy to answer, there can not be good without evil. The whole world is a stage and we are players in this drama called life. A life drama created by the Creator when he wrote his great Book, the umm al-Kitab 'the sources of the commandments or life generally'.
The first thing you must understand is that order exist. Thus the Qur'an notes that "[Allah]......He guides therewith whom He pleases.....(39:24). It adds that "And if We had so willed, We could have transformed them in their places, they would not be able to move forward or turn back" (36:68)
This shows that we have the free will to believe or not believe and that our non believe fits the Creator's plan as much as our belief. This results from the fact that everything we do is in a great book. It is noted in the Book of Revelation:
I saw the dead , both great and small, standing in front of his throne, while the book of life was opened, and other books opened which were the record of what they had done in their lives, by which the dead were judged" (20:12).
The extent of the recordings in the Book is made clear in the Qur'an where we discover: "And Everything We recorded in a BooK" (78:30). It is also noted that:
There befall not any calamity either in the earth or in your own persons, but it is recorded in a Book before We bring it into being--surely, that is easy for Allah-(57:23).
This statement makes it clear that what we do to play the role we have chosen from the Book of the Creator, has already been written before we do it. IF it had been written before we came on this plane our actions can not be seen as good or bad from the point of view of the Creator and his angels, good and evil only exist on this plan which is from the imagination of the Creator who wrote the Book, from which we play our roles on Earth.
The fact that the holy writ make it clear that everything that happens is recorded in a book makes it clear why justice and injustice; good and evil exist on this plane. It exist because we--human-- are just playing various roles from the 'Great Book' carrying out the Creators plan for this world.
If this is true good and evil only exist on this plane and reality is an illusion since our pure existence before we decided to help the Creator carry out His plan did not entail good or evil. The roles we play as murderer or saint are roles necessary for the Book to be completed. As a result,they exist only to complete the Great Book. There is no retribution because everything that happens is suppose to heppen relative to the free-will of the individual--as he carries out his life role he chose to play from the Creators Book of Life on earth..
Thusly, thou shall not kill, but if it is part of your life role you may kill. The Creator can therefore not punish you if your behavior was a possibility pursuant to execution of your life plan.
Given that you cited the Quran, are you suggesting that there is no afterlife, as that embodied by Heaven or Hell in Islamic teaching, because people only act out on earth a role that had already been assigned before their birth, or in other words, because peoples' lives are like predetermined destinies?
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
There is NO objective verifiable evidence for the existence of ANY gods. Lots of opinions but NO evidence! God beliefs are no more sound or realistic than beliefs in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.
There is NO objective verifiable evidence any gods have ever spoken to any sane men. There is only the 'subjective opinions' of errant men.
There is NO objective verifiable evidence any gods have ever appeared to any sane men. There is only the 'subjective opinions' of errant men.
Why does this all powerful god creator never communicate with us? Why does he never authenticate his very existence?
Posts: 118 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: Given that you cited the Quran, are you suggesting that there is no afterlife, as that embodied by Heaven or Hell in Islamic teaching, because people only act out on earth a role that had already been assigned before their birth, or in other words, because peoples' lives are like predetermined destinies? [/QB]
There is no afterlife. You live to die and you die to live.
Since we signed up to play specific roles in the Creator's Great Book, once we complete our assigned role we go back home. This home according to people who have had near death experiences is quite beautiful.
The concepts of Heaven and Hell, were created by man to keep weak minded people true to the concepts of Good and Justice. These concepts are associated with Near Eastern and European people.
They try to scare people into beliving in a Creator, justice and Good. This purpose is never accepted by the faithfull, who Know that the Creator forgives your "sins" . If the Creator is truthful and he forgives how can you go to hell, except in your own mind.
If you study Egyptian religion there is no concept of Hell. The desire of the ancient Egyptians was to be good and harm no one.
posted
The proof of the existence of a Supreme Being is our very universe itself and all within it. Else everything just came about spontaneously. As far as communication with this Creator I am forced to agree there's no objective verifiable evidence.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
The Universe is suffused through with an energy and other forces that behave according to certain detectable principles(scientific laws)and produce structures and life-from activities that seem to signal an intelligence that is both conscious(humans and animals), sensate but unconscious(plants, bacteria, viruses, etc.), and non-sensate and unconscious(the principled atomic and molecular structures of matter. Note: methane is always CH4 and Benzene is always C6H6, and there is a logic and symmetry to how their atoms are arranged and behave).
But I doubt that there is any one conscious being--distinct from the material universe itself--that is the source of this purposive intelligence. At least there is no veriable evidence of such to this date.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
All I have to say is that science will probably be more open to the idea once life outside the stereotyped organic/physical form is discovered or identified.
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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What I'm seeing posted on E.S., is stuff that has I've thought through too
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: lamin [QUOTE]
This shows that we have the free will to believe or not believe and that our non believe fits the Creator's plan as much as our belief.
and stuff that has even caught a willing thinker's attention at a pretty young age:
quote:Originally posted by lamin Given that events and phenomena seem--to the human brain--occur based on certain complex and systemic principles as if nature itself were consciously thinking as humans do then it followed that some humans developed the cultural tradition--passed on to others--of a conscious thinking agent/s who has/have caused the universe to exist and exist [b]within and outside of the material universe(everything that exists).
It all means something: Human brains think alike I guess.
What's funny about lamis's argument is someone might argue the reverse saying that the Creator is all reality, and we take up too small of an amount of space and time for one to easily perceive this.
But you had to go and ruin it - you had to ruin me having a totally distinct argument from you.
quote:But I doubt that there is any one conscious being--distinct from the material universe itself--that is the source of this purposive intelligence.
Oh well. I'll just have to pickitty-peck at somethin else then...
quote:At least there is no veriable evidence of such to this date
What does the above mean - Other than the obvious (it states, which is the fact that they who know they know not are the truly only ones in the know - a fundamental concept of science, which is about probability)?
quote:Note: methane is always CH4 and Benzene is always C6H6, and there is a logic and symmetry to how their atoms are arranged and behave
I get what you think your references to the unconscious mean, but what does the above citation mean? Depends.
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: Given that you cited the Quran, are you suggesting that there is no afterlife, as that embodied by Heaven or Hell in Islamic teaching, because people only act out on earth a role that had already been assigned before their birth, or in other words, because peoples' lives are like predetermined destinies?
There is no afterlife. You live to die and you die to live.
But you were quoting from the Quran, and as far as I know, Heaven and Hell are all part of Islamic teaching from what is mentioned in the Quran. Do these not embody "afterlife"?
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Since we signed up to play specific roles in the Creator's Great Book, once we complete our assigned role we go back home. This home according to people who have had near death experiences is quite beautiful.
What would "home" be?
quote:Originally posted by lamin:
The Universe is suffused through with an energy and other forces that behave according to certain detectable principles(scientific laws)and produce structures and life-from activities that seem to signal an intelligence that is both conscious(humans and animals), sensate but unconscious(plants, bacteria, viruses, etc.), and non-sensate and unconscious(the principled atomic and molecular structures of matter.
Let's take life-forms for instance, from the above. If it is assumed that cells are not conscious, what "detectable principles" motivates cell division, and unit to form much more complex cellular organisms from single cellular creatures? What "detectable principles" motivate *unconscious* cells to organize in such a manner, so as to form seemingly *functional designs* what we call organisms, which we categorize into species?
Ps - Perhaps a clue lies in 'lifeforms' [like certain viruses] that are considered to be "borderline" between the living and non-living?!
What *detectable principle* formed life, and can it be duplicated or independently recreated from the life that already exists? Is life conscious?
quote:Originally by lamin:
But I doubt that there is any one conscious being--distinct from the material universe itself--that is the source of this purposive intelligence. At least there is no veriable evidence of such to this date.
I take it that this is your way of answering the question I placed before you?
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Yes Heaven and Hell is mentioned in the Bible and Qur'an as possible futures for humans depending on their prior life.
Home is with the Creator on another plane of existence.
Existence is on many levels or planes. You see, various planes exist at varying speeds and times. We can't see this home because it exist at a different speed than our earthly plane.
Various planes of existence move at different speeds. To understand the relationship between the various planes is best explained by the fan.
When a fan is turned off you can see the blades of the fan.
When the fan is turned on you no longer see the blades. In fact, you can see through the fan.
Although you can see through the fan the blades are still there but they are moving at a rate of speed which makes the blades invisible. And if someone stuck their finger between the blades of the fan they will be injured.
This is why various planes of existence, exist, but we fail to see them because they exist at a speed and time different from the speed and time for our earth. Our home exist on one of these planes waiting for our return after we play the game of life on earth.
.
.
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: Given that you cited the Quran, are you suggesting that there is no afterlife, as that embodied by Heaven or Hell in Islamic teaching, because people only act out on earth a role that had already been assigned before their birth, or in other words, because peoples' lives are like predetermined destinies?
There is no afterlife. You live to die and you die to live.
But you were quoting from the Quran, and as far as I know, Heaven and Hell are all part of Islamic teaching from what is mentioned in the Quran. Do these not embody "afterlife"?
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Since we signed up to play specific roles in the Creator's Great Book, once we complete our assigned role we go back home. This home according to people who have had near death experiences is quite beautiful.
What would "home" be?
quote:Originally posted by lamin:
The Universe is suffused through with an energy and other forces that behave according to certain detectable principles(scientific laws)and produce structures and life-from activities that seem to signal an intelligence that is both conscious(humans and animals), sensate but unconscious(plants, bacteria, viruses, etc.), and non-sensate and unconscious(the principled atomic and molecular structures of matter.
Let's take life-forms for instance, from the above. If it is assumed that cells are not conscious, what "detectable principles" motivates cell division, and unit to form much more complex cellular organisms from single cellular creatures? What "detectable principles" motivate *unconscious* cells to organize in such a manner, so as to form seemingly *functional designs* what we call organisms, which we categorize into species?
Ps - Perhaps a clue lies in 'lifeforms' [like certain viruses] that are considered to be "borderline" between the living and non-living?!
What *detectable principle* formed life, and can it be duplicated or independently recreated from the life that already exists? Is life conscious?
quote:Originally by lamin:
But I doubt that there is any one conscious being--distinct from the material universe itself--that is the source of this purposive intelligence. At least there is no veriable evidence of such to this date.
I take it that this is your way of answering the question I placed before you?
Yes Heaven and Hell is mentioned in the Bible and Qur'an as possible futures for humans depending on their prior life.
Home is with the Creator on another plane of existence.
Existence is on many levels or planes. You see, various planes exist at varying speeds and times. We can't see this home because it exist at a different speed than our earthly plane.
Various planes of existence move at different speeds. To understand the relationship between the various planes is best explained by the fan.
When a fan is turned off you can see the blades of the fan.
When the fan is turned on you no longer see the blades. In fact, you can see through the fan.
Although you can see through the fan the blades are still there but they are moving at a rate of speed which makes the blades invisible. And if someone stuck their finger between the blades of the fan they will be injured.
This is why various planes of existence, exist, but we fail to see them because they exist at a speed and time different from the speed and time for our earth. Our home exist on one of these planes waiting for our return after we play the game of life on earth.
Actually, when I turn a fan on, I do se the blades, albeit in a blur. Perhaps a better example would have been a "bullet", which isn't seen during its motion, but leaves a visible mark behind once it hits a target.
I can't say what you've said is objective, pending corroboration to that end, but interesting nonetheless.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Ps - Perhaps a clue lies in 'lifeforms' [like certain viruses] that are considered to be "borderline" between the living and non-living?!
It might not be safe to simply assume any form of life lacks consciousness. It's interesting that you mention viruses since there are some who think that a spirochete (a virus) might lie at the heart of human cognition. It is believed that these organisms are an integral part of the human brain. Spirochetes also have the disconcerting ability to hide from the immune system. Considering the complexity of this system this is a pretty remarkable talent.
It's also been said that a person is made up of 10 times as many organisms as he has cells in his body. We are each outnumbered many billions to one!!!! If we could transport ourselves as in Star Trek or the science fiction movies we would still be visible for a while after we left. When we got to where we were going our gastrointestinal difficulties might not kill us as quickly as lack of brain function.
Posts: 393 | From: NW Indiana, US of A | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Ps - Perhaps a clue lies in 'lifeforms' [like certain viruses] that are considered to be "borderline" between the living and non-living?!
It might not be safe to simply assume any form of life lacks consciousness.
I take it that you are referring to my question about a cell. Sure a cell would have to be 'alive', in order to set it apart from the non-living, but do you have material that suggests that cells by themselves are generally conscious? I suppose the same question can be asked about the smaller entities, including DNA and RNA, that make up a single cell - which is by itself complex enough, let alone a multicellular organism.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:I take it that you are referring to my question about a cell. Sure a cell would have to be 'alive', in order to set it apart from the non-living, but do you have material that suggests that cells by themselves are generally conscious? I suppose the same question can be asked about the smaller entities, including DNA and RNA, that make up a single cell - which is by itself complex enough, let alone a multicellular organism.
There's a lot of evidence which suggests that "consciouness" is a continuum that ranges from never alive to nirvana. Certainly bacteria are closer to the low end of the scale than the high end but new research shows that the behavior of many simple organisms change based on enviromental factors such as species population. One bacterium will simply multiply if able until it hits a sort of critical mass and then it glows. This is apparently the result of changes in each (or most) of the bacteria rather than a chemical property. This would imply communication and at least a low level consciousness.
Individual human cells are most probably far lower on the "consciousness" scale than bacteria or even viruses but I wouldn't be surprised if it were learned that some body parts and their associated ganglia had a very high level of consciousness of which we're not aware. All communication with such structures occurs in the most primitive parts of the brain and the medula.
Posts: 393 | From: NW Indiana, US of A | Registered: Aug 2006
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''There is NO objective verifiable evidence for the existence of ANY gods. Lots of opinions but NO evidence! God beliefs are no more sound or realistic than beliefs in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.
''There is NO objective verifiable evidence any gods have ever spoken to any sane men. There is only the 'subjective opinions' of errant men.
''Why does this all powerful god creator never communicate with us? Why does he never authenticate his very existence?''
Why heck, right there, I and everyone else on this planet have all the evidence we need to say that Player13 is right; his objectivity /subjectivity nothwithstanding. How could everyone have missed his simplicity. Of course it's always possible Playah is frustrated because he has no truth either and it is manifesting itself through his attempts to muscle his way into the ''truth.''
Keep trying Player, maybe you'll reach 14 before too long.
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by sam p: ..Individual human cells are most probably far lower on the "consciousness" scale than bacteria or even viruses but I wouldn't be surprised if it were learned that some body parts and their associated ganglia had a very high level of consciousness of which we're not aware. All communication with such structures occurs in the most primitive parts of the brain and the medula.
Perhaps individual human cells are lower on the "consciousness" scale than bacterial cells because human cells have evolved to work collectively and have been doing so for so long.
As for viruses, according to most rules of biology they are not even alive since they merely replicate and that is all they do. So I don't know how they can possess any type of conciousness at all.
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Actually, when I turn a fan on, I do se the blades, albeit in a blur. Perhaps a better example would have been a "bullet", which isn't seen during its motion, but leaves a visible mark behind once it hits a target.
I like this analogy of a bullet shot from a gun as being representative of the invisible made visible. Thank you Mystery Solver I plan to meditate on this idea and learn how to make it understandable to all.
It may be an appropriate way to view belief in a Creator. Many people believe in an omnipotent entity which they have never seen, but they feel strongly in their heart that a Creator exist.
This feeling of His/Her presence is so strong to some of the believers, that they are physically affected. In this sense the Creator like the bullet is invisible, but the feelings evoked by belief in this Creator demonstrated by the Believer, make it clear that the Believer accepts His/Her existence.
The beauty of existence is that we have the right to believe and not believe. Although the leaders of all religions believe in compulsion, i.e., you must believe in my religion or you are damed, the Creator allows us the free-will to chose to believe or not.
The presence of free will made Jesus one of my heroes.
I have three heroes who have guided my life: John Brown, Paul Robeson and Jesus. I love John Brown because he, and his sons fought to attempt to free my people from slavery. He was a white man--who taught me that you fight for what you believe in, and if necessary die.
I love Paul Robeson, because he was like me. He played College football, and spoke many languages. It was his example that gave me the courage to learn numerous languages to elaborate the diasporic history of African people in Asia and the Americas.
I love Jesus because he freed mankind from dependence on the brahman, priest, cohen, imam or rabbi. Jesus taught that upon this rock I make my church. This was a simple teaching but what he said was that one can communicate with his Creator, anytime and anywhere as long as he prayed.
This was new, and made him a threat. Before Jesus, it was the religious leader who "led" you to the Creator, while you supported him with your hard work and wealth.
Jesus taught that this was unacceptable. You had no need for Mosque, Church or Temple worship, the Creator was there for you to consult through prayer anytime you felt like communicating with Him/Her in anyway you saw fit.
You probably ask: "If this is true how do we have a Christian religion"? The answer is that Christianity was never founded by Jesus.
The Christian religion was founded by Paul, who didn't even know Jesus. Paul created the Christian religion because it called for a religious leader and ensured that a clergy and tradition was necessary for reaching the Creator.
Isn't it interesting that a man who never met Jesus physically took his message and transfigured it to distort the real teachings of Christ. Jesus' teachings were 1) we are our brothers keeper (i.e., responsible for the well-being of all human kind); and 2) that mankind is free to worship and communicate with their Lord without any intermediary.
This is a revolutionary idea. Just think what would happen to all the brahmen, imams, rabbis and preachers, who had to go out and get a real job instead of pimping their congregations. Is it any wonder that Jesus was seen as an enemy to the status quo?
In summary the Creator is like a bullet. He is invisible but when you find Him/Her you are struck with joy and strong emotion which creates a physical impression on your Being, like a bullet striking the surface of your skin to puncture it and settle therein. I thank the Creator for allowing me to experience this joy and recognition that I am not alone and there is someOne looking out for me and all the Good People.
posted
I take it you hold to the belief that all that is has always been and disbelieve in the expanding universe that once was less than infitesimal?
quote:Originally posted by lamin: The Universe is suffused through with an energy and other forces that behave according to certain detectable principles(scientific laws)and produce structures and life-from activities that seem to signal an intelligence that is both conscious(humans and animals), sensate but unconscious(plants, bacteria, viruses, etc.), and non-sensate and unconscious(the principled atomic and molecular structures of matter. Note: methane is always CH4 and Benzene is always C6H6, and there is a logic and symmetry to how their atoms are arranged and behave).
But I doubt that there is any one conscious being--distinct from the material universe itself--that is the source of this purposive intelligence. At least there is no veriable evidence of such to this date.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Hokmath Yisra'el does not posit anyone not of the Tribes be compelled to worship in the traditional customs of Judah or Israel. Nor does it hold to a concept of damnation. Hokmei Yisra'el teach that a non-Israelite/non-Jew who keeps to a certain set of precepts is as worthy as the highest observant priest and that all who strive to live morally have an afterlife.
The afore mentioned principles are: 1. Do not worship manufactured divinities. 2. Do not murder (including suicide and infanticide). 3. Do not steal (including kidnapping for slavery). 4. Do not be sexually immoral (incest, adultery, cross-species sex). 6. Do not curse by the Creator. 5. Do not eat the limb of the living animal. 7. Set up courts and administer law (justice).
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The beauty of existence is that we have the right to believe and not believe. Although the leaders of all religions believe in compulsion, i.e., you must believe in my religion or you are damed, the Creator allows us the free-will to chose to believe or not.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
''As for viruses, according to most rules of biology they are not even alive since they merely replicate and that is all they do. So I don't know how they can possess any type of conciousness at all.''
Yet these ''not even alive'' gangsters can run a con game on the host cell and make this intelligent group of cells open the door, get up against the wall, and stick up the joint? Who's the dumb one here. It sure ain't the virus who's supposed to be somewhere in between living and non-living.
So this means the host cell has been paid off by the thugs? Otherwise, how to explain a ''crashing the party.''
I can hear the virus talking now:
Haven't you guys learned anything in all these millenia. Everytime I knock on the door someone lets me in. I know, I know, the biologists (in 2007) say we can't pull this trick off until we get inside, but they don't want to explain how an IQ of 50 can coerce one of 140 to open the door... when they know we gone kick some ass up in heah. Not only that we take over the operating instructions and tell the host cell its own instructions don't mean jack and then gangster the host with new and unusual software. Now ain't this some stuff. The host cell can't do anything about it until the virus either decides to gum up the entire cell or go somewhere else and ridicule them.
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
^ Viruses can easily exploit cells simply because they have co-evolved with cells.
All a virus is, is genetic material encased in a capsule of protein. It is this coat of protein that is similar in molecular structure to the cell of whatever the virus infects. Which is why viruses can escape detection. They take over cells by injecting their genetic material which overrides that of the cell.
This all may seem like "intelligence", but it's not. It is simple biochemical reactions. Viruses have lived and co-existed as long as cells. They are just free-floating molecules that don't act or behave in any manner, just replicate and spread.
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Hokmath Yisra'el does not posit anyone not of the Tribes be compelled to worship in the traditional customs of Judah or Israel. Nor does it hold to a concept of damnation. Hokmei Yisra'el teach that a non-Israelite/non-Jew who keeps to a certain set of precepts is as worthy as the highest observant priest and that all who strive to live morally have an afterlife.
The afore mentioned principles are: 1. Do not worship manufactured divinities. 2. Do not murder (including suicide and infanticide). 3. Do not steal (including kidnapping for slavery). 4. Do not be sexually immoral (incest, adultery, cross-species sex). 6. Do not curse by the Creator. 5. Do not eat the limb of the living animal. 7. Set up courts and administer law (justice).
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The beauty of existence is that we have the right to believe and not believe. Although the leaders of all religions believe in compulsion, i.e., you must believe in my religion or you are damed, the Creator allows us the free-will to chose to believe or not.
Thanks for the correction.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
I cannot think of any time existing before Time T(zero) and I cannot think of a situation where there is zero space. So the universe has always existed but in pulsating--i.e. expanding and contracting fashion.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
''Viruses can easily exploit cells simply because they have co-evolved with cells.''
If they co-evolved with cells this sounds like some equalness involved in the deal, but it isn't, at least the way I see it. Now I don't have a problem with the evolving in the same house but at some point the host cell tried to outrun the virus type yet couldn't quite get away from it. All I'm saying is if the virus is in fact a lowly organism then how is it it can gain access to a living cell if it, the virus, is in a somewhere in between state of existence. Here we have something that really isn't supposed to be sophisticated, according to some I think, yet it can pull off the congame on a cell that is supposed to know what it is doing. Looks like some dirty dealin' goin' on here. Yet you say it is nothing more than simple biochemical reactions. I'll bet the host cells don't see it that way. Kinda like a bicycle getting to the finish line before a Masserati even after starting together.
''They are just free-floating molecules that don't act or behave in any manner, just replicate and spread.''
If they don't act or behave in any manner how is it they replicate and spread?
Posts: 2118 | From: midwest, USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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