posted
Agreed, with no argument on my part to the contrary. I had supposed that Obenga had stronger propositions than ones so far presented.
After all he did persuade the symposium with his propositions. However, I do find him a bit slack as far as my own expectations.
If one man opposes the agreement of many others who confirm the existance of a Semitic phylum I presume he'd have prepared and published stunning counter evidence in his favour.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Obviously the thread author who stated that Bantu languages come from the Nile Valley, or do you have poor reading comprehension?...But what do you expect from folks like Kemsonreloaded, Wally, and Clyde who are too consumed their own ideology that they refuse facts.
As it is said, herein lies the rub. There are two schools of thought here on this subject:
1) the Static view - it follows this line of thought,
quote: a common area of origin of the Bantu peoples, with the evidence pointing strongly to the region of present-day Cameroon-Nigeria border. It is thought that they migrated across the country eastward, across the southern Sudan, and then south, past the great lakes of the northeast.
One then, has to believe that these peoples suddenly, or gradually, sprang from NOWHERE and into existence in Cameroon-Nigeria! These peoples, had never arrived from anywhere else on the continent!
Can't be said to have sprang from nowhere, when you've just cited a piece zeroing in on the likely point of origin.
Bantu languages obviously constitutes a sub-phylum of its own, because the languages therein are deemed by the observers of such, to be relatively more closer to one another linguistically than they are to other members of the Niger-Congo superfamily. Naturally, if they are part of the latter, then there would have to be a link between the Bantu sub-phylum and other Niger-Congo sub-phyla. In otherwords, the Bantu sub-phylum outgrowth is a *further differentiation* of some pre-existing Niger-Congo language(s). Therefore, the Bantu sub-phylum cannot be seen as springing up from nowhere and just spontaneously appearing in the said region - that is, the vicinity of Nigeria and Cameroon.
The region where it is deemed that Niger-Congo sub-languages therein fall into both that which is *relatively* closer to the Bantu designated sub-languages and that which is relatively distant, is in the region straddling Nigeria and Cameroon.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
Agreed, with no argument on my part to the contrary. I had supposed that Obenga had stronger propositions than ones so far presented.
After all he did persuade the symposium with his propositions. However, I do find him a bit slack as far as my own expectations.
If one man opposes the agreement of many others who confirm the existance of a Semitic phylum I presume he'd have prepared and published stunning counter evidence in his favour.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ^ And, it is through the comparisons of these languages, we can determine the areas in which any particular African language had previously occupied.
What areas of the Nile Valley were previously occupied by Bantu speakers, proto-Bantu speakers, or Proto-Niger Congo speakers?
What is your chronology for the spread of said langauges from the Nile Valley?
Wm. E. Welmers identified the Niger Congo home land. Welmers in "Niger-Congo Mande", Current trends in Linguistics 7 (1971), pp.113-140,explained that the Niger-Congo homeland was in the vicinity of the upper Nile valley (p.119). He believes that the Westward migration began 5000 years ago.
In support of this theory he discusses the dogs of the Niger-Congo speakers. This is the unique barkless Basenji dogs which live in the Sudan and Uganda today, but were formerly recorded on Egyptian monuments (Wlemers,p.119). According to Welmers the Basanji, is related to the Liberian Basenji breed of the Kpelle and Loma people of Liberia. Welmers believes that the Mande took these dogs with them on their migration westward. The Kpelle and Loma speak Mande languages.
He believes that the region was unoccupied when the Mande migrated westward. In support of this theory Welmers' notes that the Liberian Banji dogs ,show no cross-breeding with dogs kept by other African groups in West Africa, and point to the early introduction of this cannine population after the separation of the Mande from the other Niger-Congo speakers in the original upper Nile homeland for this population. As a result, he claims that the Mande migration occured before these groups entered the region.
Linguistic research make it clear that there is a close relationship between the Niger-Congo Superlanguage family and the Nilo-Saharan languages spoken in the Sudan. Heine and Nurse (Eds.), in African languages: An introduction , Cambridge University Press, 2000, discuss the Nilo-Saharan connection. They note that when Westerman (1911) described African languages he used lexical evidence to include the Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo languages into a Superfamily he called "Sudanic" (p.16). Using Morphological and lexical similarities Gregerson (1972) indicated that these languages belonged to a macrophylum he named " Kongo-Saharan" (p.16). Research by Blench (1995) reached the same conclusion, and he named this Superfamily: "Niger-Saharan".
Genetic evidence supports the upper Nile origin for the Niger-Congo speakers. Rosa et al, in Y-Chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau (2007), noted that while most Mande & Balanta carry the E3a-M2 gene, there are a number of Felupe-Djola, Papel, Fulbe and Mande carry the M3b*-M35 gene the same as many people in the Sudan.
In conclusion, Welmers proposed an upper Nile (Sudan-Uganda) homeland for the Niger-Congo speakers. He claims that they remained intact until 5000 years ago. This view is supported by linguistic and genetics evidence. The linguistic evidence makes it clear that the Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo languages are related. The genetic evidence indicates that Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo speakers carry the M3b*-M35 gene, an indicator for the earlier presence of speakers of this language in an original Nile Valley homeland.
posted
Dr Clyde Winters, "The Migration routes of the Proto-Mande", The Mankind Quarterly , 27(1) (1986), discussed the migration of the Mande speakers from the Nile Valley homeland of the Niger-Congo speakers using archaeological evidence.
.
. The archaeological evidence indicates that the first Mande speakers to leave the Nile Valley were speakers of the Northern Mande group. These people migrated into the Fezzan and the Maghrib around 2700 and 2500 BC. These people probably mainly spoke Malinke-Bamabara along with some Soninke speakers.
The next group to migrate out of the Nile Valley was the Soninke-Vai speakers around 2500 BC. Speakers of these languages eventually occupied Tichitt. .
[Diagram removed - Henu]
. The Vai separated from the Soninke around 1000 BC and moved to their present location in West Africa.
Manding (Northern Mande speakers) appear to have began a migration out of the Hoggar southward into the Iforas between 200-1500 BC,with their cattle, yam and millet. Speakers of these languages remained the dominant group in the area until 500 BC, most of the speakers of these languages probably remained in the Fezzan.
Manding were the predominant group in the Tilemsi Valley up to 500 BC, when the S.E. Mande speakers began their southward migration toward the Atlantic from the Air between 500BC and AD500. The Mande speaking hunter-gatherer-fisher collectors of a Saharan material culture (McIntosh & McIntosh,1981:608) settled the Karkarichinkat site beyween 2000-130 BC.
The archaeological evidence makes it clear that Mande and Bozo speakers reached the Niger Bend by 500BC (McIntosh & McIntosh, 1983:39-42). It is interesting to note that the bowl designs of the Niger Delta dating to 250BC, are analogous to pottery styles from the southern Sahara to between 2000-500BC (McIntosh & McIntosh, 1979:246).
The speakers of the Kwa and Benue-Congo group of languages entered West Africa later. Given the presence of speakers of these languages in large numbers forced the Bantu speakers to migrate from the Congo all the way to the Cape. The strong presence of Bantoid speakers reaching from the Congo to South Africa, make it clear that when the Bantu migrated into the areas where they presently live the region was probably sparsely occupied by non-Bantoid speakers.
.
.
[ 19. November 2007, 07:30 AM: Message edited by: Henu ]
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
ATTN MODERATORS: Please take the material plagiarized from me out of Clyde's above post.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: And the flaws of such a linguistic construct were explained to you before, or do you not remember?? Even the very name "negro" is insulting. You do realize that Eurocentrics tried doing the same with not only European languages but other languages outside of Europe whom they associated with "caucasians". They called it 'Nostratic' which was a construct actually worse than Negro-Egyptien with a greater amount of flaws especially since it inculded Egyptian and other Afrasian languages. But at least the name wasn't Leuco(white)-Greek! LOL
I, considering many of your "questionable logic", don't think you qualify in determining when the use of a term like "negro" is insulting or not. You might be better off playing the more fitting Eurocentric role, which is usually insulting enough, rather than trying to be morally correct without a goal of changing. The latter [being morally correct] should be left up to genuine truth seekers who are working to make real meaningful changes. When detractors play both sides, with their intentions resulting in Eurocentrism, it becomes kinda like topsy-turvy; the one stabbing another is also playing the role of the victim being stabbed. Other than that, the topics have been great and informative.
Posts: 213 | From: New York City, USA | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
The diagram I arranged has no bearing on the material you're presenting either by era or by information and I do not give you my permission to use it to say other than what I explicitly designed it to say in full context as originally posted.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Dr Clyde Winters, "The Migration routes of the Proto-Mande", The Mankind Quarterly , 27(1) (1986), discussed the migration of the Mande speakers from the Nile Valley homeland of the Niger-Congo speakers using archaeological evidence.
.
. The archaeological evidence indicates that the first Mande speakers to leave the Nile Valley were speakers of the Northern Mande group. These people migrated into the Fezzan and the Maghrib around 2700 and 2500 BC. These people probably mainly spoke Malinke-Bamabara along with some Soninke speakers.
The next group to migrate out of the Nile Valley was the Soninke-Vai speakers around 2500 BC. Speakers of these languages eventually occupied Tichitt.
The Vai separated from the Soninke around 1000 BC and moved to their present location in West Africa.
Manding (Northern Mande speakers) appear to have began a migration out of the Hoggar southward into the Iforas between 200-1500 BC,with their cattle, yam and millet. Speakers of these languages remained the dominant group in the area until 500 BC, most of the speakers of these languages probably remained in the Fezzan.
Manding were the predominant group in the Tilemsi Valley up to 500 BC, when the S.E. Mande speakers began their southward migration toward the Atlantic from the Air between 500BC and AD500. The Mande speaking hunter-gatherer-fisher collectors of a Saharan material culture (McIntosh & McIntosh,1981:608) settled the Karkarichinkat site beyween 2000-130 BC.
The archaeological evidence makes it clear that Mande and Bozo speakers reached the Niger Bend by 500BC (McIntosh & McIntosh, 1983:39-42). It is interesting to note that the bowl designs of the Niger Delta dating to 250BC, are analogous to pottery styles from the southern Sahara to between 2000-500BC (McIntosh & McIntosh, 1979:246).
The speakers of the Kwa and Benue-Congo group of languages entered West Africa later. Given the presence of speakers of these languages in large numbers forced the Bantu speakers to migrate from the Congo all the way to the Cape. The strong presence of Bantoid speakers reaching from the Congo to South Africa, make it clear that when the Bantu migrated into the areas where they presently live the region was probably sparsely occupied by non-Bantoid speakers.
ATTN MODERATORS: Please take the material plagiarized from me out of Clyde's above post.
I don't like your attitude. First of all, you did not copyright the material, so I assumed it was alright to use it.
quote:
Working within Copyright Requirements: How do you decide ? The following is intended as general guidelines for decision-making for students engaged in not-for-profit production of a graduate thesis or research project. It is not a legal opinion, and must not be used as a substitute for exercising one’s own judgment or obtaining legal opinion where a lawsuit for copyright infringement appears a strong possibility. Background Copyright law protects the exclusive right of originators of "works" to publish and re-publish their work. This protection applies regardless of whether the work in question is published (such as a book or an annual report) or not (such as an internal company memo), and whether someone has put it out in the public domain (such as on a website) or not. This protection expires after the space of 50 years following the death of the originator, regardless of who holds copyright at that time. However, it is the created expression of the originator which is protected by law, not "ideas," "words" or "facts."
There are therefore useful benchmarks by which one can evaluate whether one needs to obtain permission from the originator in order to use material in one's own work, such as theses, research projects, journal articles, etc., which are intended for publication. What is not permitted… Direct reproduction (copy/paste or photocopying) of an image created by others, such as photocopied or scanned text, tables, photos, graphs, drawings, maps etc., a JPEG or similar image, photos, corporate logos, etc. □ reproduction of "substantive" portions of a work, such as portions of a given source so large they are out of proportion to either the work itself or to one's own text. (The university uses a rule-of- thumb of 500 words, maximum, from a single source, after which copyright permission documentation will be required of the student, but "substantive" can mean less than that, depending on the nature and content of the source.) □ using material the use of which is expressly prohibited by a use or copyright statement accompanying the material in published website or printed format. For example, Microsoft Inc expressly prohibits using any photo of Bill Gates without permission in advance for each use. Criteria/Benchmarks for when and how one can use material… web page
You act like a baby. It is not uncommon for researchers to adapt a chart or diagram for their specific purposes that has beeen published before
Pursuant to fair use I changed aspects of the diagram you created but it was not plagiarism since it did not contain all the information you had in the original, nor was it identical to the original in content.
Now that I know you are concerned about its use, I have requested that the moderators remove the post with your chart.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Dr Clyde Winters, "The Migration routes of the Proto-Mande", The Mankind Quarterly , 27(1) (1986), discussed the migration of the Mande speakers from the Nile Valley homeland of the Niger-Congo speakers using archaeological evidence.
.. The archaeological evidence indicates that the first Mande speakers to leave the Nile Valley were speakers of the Northern Mande group. These people migrated into the Fezzan and the Maghrib around 2700 and 2500 BC. These people probably mainly spoke Malinke-Bamabara along with some Soninke speakers. .
quote:This inscription[ the Oued Mertoutek in the Fezzan] was also found in the Sahara. It is around 5000 years old. Both these inscriptions make it clear that Africans had knowledge of writing over 6000 years ago. Given this evidence of writing in Africa,we can not positively claim that Africans could not have taken writing to Europe 5000-6000 years ago. It is clear that literacy existed in Africa around this time.
How could the Mande have written the inscription at Oued Mertoutek if they had not yet migrated there?
Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Dr Clyde Winters, "The Migration routes of the Proto-Mande", The Mankind Quarterly , 27(1) (1986), discussed the migration of the Mande speakers from the Nile Valley homeland of the Niger-Congo speakers using archaeological evidence.
.. The archaeological evidence indicates that the first Mande speakers to leave the Nile Valley were speakers of the Northern Mande group. These people migrated into the Fezzan and the Maghrib around 2700 and 2500 BC. These people probably mainly spoke Malinke-Bamabara along with some Soninke speakers. .
quote:This inscription[ the Oued Mertoutek in the Fezzan] was also found in the Sahara. It is around 5000 years old. Both these inscriptions make it clear that Africans had knowledge of writing over 6000 years ago. Given this evidence of writing in Africa,we can not positively claim that Africans could not have taken writing to Europe 5000-6000 years ago. It is clear that literacy existed in Africa around this time.
How could the Mande have written the inscription at Oued Mertoutek if they had not yet migrated there?
That is easy to answer. When I mention the date of 2700 BC I am talking about a mass migration of Mande speakers from the Nile Valley toward West Africa. The Oued Mertoutek inscription was probably written by Mande who had left the Nile Valley before the mass migration and explored areas to the West of the Nile Valley. During these explorations someone wrote the Oued Mertoutek inscription.
There were probably many Mande speakers living in the Highland Regions of Middle Africa, in addition to those living in the Valley areas. I refer to these people as Proto-Saharans due to their settlement of the Fertile African Crescent, which was made up of settlements in the Saharan Highlands.
posted
I don't give a rat's rear end what you don't like you plagiarizing theif with the nerve to be offended after you're the one lifting my work.
All you had to do was comport yourself as a professional and ask in the first place. Failing to do that, you could've acted in a manner common to researches by writing "digram after al~Takruri." You followed neither standard operation.
You acted dishonorably. Had you first even credited me I'd've had nothng to say. No go do penance cos you know you know better than to act like that.
Back off me! Go on your way in peace.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
The Basenji dogs don't necessarily support mass migration. Animals could have been obtained through interaction across the Saharan belt, namely through trade. What is the Nile Valley name for this dog - and its etymology?
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: The Basenji dogs don't necessarily support mass migration. Animals could have been obtained through interaction across the Saharan belt, namely through trade. What is the Nile Valley name for this dog - and its etymology?
Egyptian Basenji Dog Hieroglyph
. Trade might account for the presence of Basenji dogs in both places. But, from the sense of the article, Welmers claims that speakers of other African languages surrounding the Kpelle have different dogs.
The term for Basenji may be uher. In Egyptian uher also means house, so some people claim the Egyptians placed a dog size after uher to denote the term dog.
Niger-Congo hunters probably early domesticated the dog. Hunters used dogs to catch their prey .
Egyptian Hieroglyph
.
Egyptian term for dog corresponds to many African, and Dravidian terms for dog:
Egptian uher
Azer wulle
Bozo kongoro
Guro bere
Vai wuru, ulu
Bo[Bambara] -ulu
Wassulunka wulu
Konyanka wulu
Malinke wuli, wuru, wulu
Dravidian ori
.
The above data indicates that there is contrast between Paleo-Afican l =/= r. The Egyptian Ø uher # , Azer Ø wulle # and Manding Ø wuru # suggest that the r > l in Paleo-African.
There is also vowel alternation in the terms for dog o =/= u. The predominance of the vowel /u/ in the terms for dog, make it clear that o<u. This evidence suggest that there are two Paleo-African terms for dog: Paleo-African [PA] *uru and *oro.
Futhermore, this comparison of the term for dog within and among Niger-Congo languages and Egyptian supports Welmers view that the dog was domesticated in the Nile Valley before the speakers of these languages separated, and migrated to other parts of Africa.
Egyptian term for dog corresponds to many African, and Dravidian terms for dog:
Egptian uher
Azer wulle
Bozo kongoro
Guro bere
Vai wuru, ulu
Bo[Bambara] -ulu
Wassulunka wulu
Konyanka wulu
Malinke wuli, wuru, wulu
Dravidian ori
.
The above data indicates that there is contrast between Paleo-Afican l =/= r. The Egyptian Ø uher # , Azer Ø wulle # and Manding Ø wuru # suggest that the r > l in Paleo-African.
Yes, strong correspondence between Vai, Bambara, Konyanka, and Malinke from what is presented above, but honestly, quite weak when it comes to comparing the Egyptian "uher" with the terms for dog in the aforementioned languages.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
There is also vowel alternation in the terms for dog o =/= u. The predominance of the vowel /u/ in the terms for dog, make it clear that o<u. This evidence suggest that there are two Paleo-African terms for dog: Paleo-African [PA] *uru and *oro.
Futhermore, this comparison of the term for dog within and among Niger-Congo languages and Egyptian supports Welmers view that the dog was domesticated in the Nile Valley before the speakers of these languages separated, and migrated to other parts of Africa.
Nouns for trade items are bound to find their way either unaltered or little modified into another language. These terms have limited value in telling us about the structural nature of a language or about the natural integrity of a given language.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I agree that some scholars denote and ancient relationship between the Nilo-saharan and Niger Congo families, although the order of time depth given is usually very great.
I don't see how the domesticated Dog, can prove that West Africa was uninhabited since the old Kingdom 5kya, or that it's current population come mainly from the Nile Valley.
West Africa has been populated continuously since the Holocene at least.
I grant you evidence is poor in the forest regions, but still - we have the 8000 year old Canoe disovered in Borno Nigeria, and the 7000 year old proto-Fulani Cave Art from Algeria.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've removed the corrupted version of the diagram from the post, Clyde Winters. You should have attributed it to al-Takruri. You are free to repost it, with attribution, so long as you reproduce it accurately.
Al-Takruri, I've removed the diagram, but there's no reason for you to behave the way you did. I'm not going to give you an official warning, but avoid outbursts like that in the future, they only lead to flame wars over nothing.
Posts: 113 | From: Dayr al-Barsha | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Henu: I've removed the corrupted version of the diagram from the post, Clyde Winters. You should have attributed it to al-Takruri. You are free to repost it, with attribution, so long as you reproduce it accurately.
Al-Takruri, I've removed the diagram, but there's no reason for you to behave the way you did. I'm not going to give you an official warning, but avoid outbursts like that in the future, they only lead to flame wars over nothing.
Thank you for removing the material. I couldn't ask Takruri could I use the material because he had put me on his none contact list.
Below is the message I got when I tried to contact Takruri. Sorry, you are on this member's ignore list. You cannot send a private message to this person.
» Please use your browser's back button to return. Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by rasol: I agree that some scholars denote and ancient relationship between the Nilo-saharan and Niger Congo families, although the order of time depth given is usually very great.
I don't see how the domesticated Dog, can prove that West Africa was uninhabited since the old Kingdom 5kya, or that it's current population come mainly from the Nile Valley.
West Africa has been populated continuously since the Holocene at least.
I grant you evidence is poor in the forest regions, but still - we have the 8000 year old Canoe disovered in Borno Nigeria, and the 7000 year old proto-Fulani Cave Art from Algeria.
Nobody said the area was uninhabited, the pygmy people were there but no Niger -Congo speakers were in the area until around 3000 BC. For example, the Mande make it clear they were not the original inhabitants of the places where they live.
Egyptian term for dog corresponds to many African, and Dravidian terms for dog:
Egptian uher
Azer wulle
Bozo kongoro
Guro bere
Vai wuru, ulu
Bo[Bambara] -ulu
Wassulunka wulu
Konyanka wulu
Malinke wuli, wuru, wulu
Dravidian ori
.
The above data indicates that there is contrast between Paleo-Afican l =/= r. The Egyptian Ø uher # , Azer Ø wulle # and Manding Ø wuru # suggest that the r > l in Paleo-African.
Yes, strong correspondence between Vai, Bambara, Konyanka, and Malinke from what is presented above, but honestly, quite weak when it comes to comparing the Egyptian "uher" with the terms for dog in the aforementioned languages.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
There is also vowel alternation in the terms for dog o =/= u. The predominance of the vowel /u/ in the terms for dog, make it clear that o<u. This evidence suggest that there are two Paleo-African terms for dog: Paleo-African [PA] *uru and *oro.
Futhermore, this comparison of the term for dog within and among Niger-Congo languages and Egyptian supports Welmers view that the dog was domesticated in the Nile Valley before the speakers of these languages separated, and migrated to other parts of Africa.
Nouns for trade items are bound to find their way either unaltered or little modified into another language. These terms have limited value in telling us about the structural nature of a language or about the natural integrity of a given language.
Not really they accurately reflect the nature of the two languages and allow us to accurately acess there relationship.
If I remember correctly the Basanji dog is only found in Egypt-Sudan and Liberia. The absence of the dogs in other regions of Africa, make it clear that if they got the dog from the Egyptians they formerly lived in intimate contact, probably in the Nile Valley as suggested by Welmers.
Egyptian term for dog corresponds to many African, and Dravidian terms for dog:
Egptian uher
Azer wulle
Bozo kongoro
Guro bere
Vai wuru, ulu
Bo[Bambara] -ulu
Wassulunka wulu
Konyanka wulu
Malinke wuli, wuru, wulu
Dravidian ori
.
The above data indicates that there is contrast between Paleo-Afican l =/= r. The Egyptian Ø uher # , Azer Ø wulle # and Manding Ø wuru # suggest that the r > l in Paleo-African.
Yes, strong correspondence between Vai, Bambara, Konyanka, and Malinke from what is presented above, but honestly, quite weak when it comes to comparing the Egyptian "uher" with the terms for dog in the aforementioned languages.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
There is also vowel alternation in the terms for dog o =/= u. The predominance of the vowel /u/ in the terms for dog, make it clear that o<u. This evidence suggest that there are two Paleo-African terms for dog: Paleo-African [PA] *uru and *oro.
Futhermore, this comparison of the term for dog within and among Niger-Congo languages and Egyptian supports Welmers view that the dog was domesticated in the Nile Valley before the speakers of these languages separated, and migrated to other parts of Africa.
Nouns for trade items are bound to find their way either unaltered or little modified into another language. These terms have limited value in telling us about the structural nature of a language or about the natural integrity of a given language.
Not really they accurately reflect the nature of the two languages and allow us to accurately acess there relationship.
If I remember correctly the Basanji dog is only found in Egypt-Sudan and Liberia. The absence of the dogs in other regions of Africa, make it clear that if they got the dog from the Egyptians they formerly lived in intimate contact, probably in the Nile Valley as suggested by Welmers.
.
This is a very solid and interesting connection Clyde.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by rasol: I agree that some scholars denote and ancient relationship between the Nilo-saharan and Niger Congo families, although the order of time depth given is usually very great.
I don't see how the domesticated Dog, can prove that West Africa was uninhabited since the old Kingdom 5kya, or that it's current population come mainly from the Nile Valley.
West Africa has been populated continuously since the Holocene at least.
I grant you evidence is poor in the forest regions, but still - we have the 8000 year old Canoe disovered in Borno Nigeria, and the 7000 year old proto-Fulani Cave Art from Algeria.
Nobody said the area was uninhabited, the pygmy people were there but no Niger -Congo speakers were in the area until around 3000 BC. For example, the Mande make it clear they were not the original inhabitants of the places where they live.
.
Brooks, G. E. 1989 “Ecological Perspectives on Mande Population Movements, Commercial Networks, and Settlement Patterns from the Atlantic Wet Phase (Ca. 5500-2500 B.C.) to the Present,” History in Africa, 16: 23-40.
quote:Insofar as linguistic analyses and archaeological research inform historical reconstructions, it may be inferred that proto-Mande speakers lived in dispersed groups in the area between the bends of the Senegal and Niger rivers prior to and during the Atlantic Wet Phase (ca. 5500-2500 B.C.). During these three millennia proto-Mande-speaking hunter-gatherers moved northwards to take advantage of living conditions in the "green" Sahara, which may have had three to four times more rainfall (Figure 1) than during the intermediate period 1930-1960 depicted on Map 1, when rainfall was approximately 100 millimeters annually.
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: Can't be said to have sprang from nowhere, when you've just cited a piece zeroing in on the likely point of origin.
Bantu languages obviously constitutes a sub-phylum of its own, because the languages therein are deemed by the observers of such, to be relatively more closer to one another linguistically than they are to other members of the Niger-Congo superfamily. Naturally, if they are part of the latter, then there would have to be a link between the Bantu sub-phylum and other Niger-Congo sub-phyla. In otherwords, the Bantu sub-phylum outgrowth is a *further differentiation* of some pre-existing Niger-Congo language(s). Therefore, the Bantu sub-phylum cannot be seen as springing up from nowhere and just spontaneously appearing in the said region - that is, the vicinity of Nigeria and Cameroon.
The region where it is deemed that Niger-Congo sub-languages therein fall into both that which is *relatively* closer to the Bantu designated sub-languages and that which is relatively distant, is in the region straddling Nigeria and Cameroon.
Indeed. This is hilarious! LOL Wally now claims that for a language group to originate it has to come from "nowhere"?! It is common fact that Bantu descended from some subgroup of Niger-Congo.
As for everything else including Clyde's plagiarized citing of Takruri and Kemsons' usual unsubstantiated comments, they are all duely noted. Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote: Indeed. This is hilarious! LOL Wally now claims that for a language group to originate it has to come from "nowhere"?! It is common fact that Bantu descended from some subgroup of Niger-Congo
This shows your ignorance of African linguistics. Bantu is a subgroup of Niger-Congo.
.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
Nouns for trade items are bound to find their way either unaltered or little modified into another language. These terms have limited value in telling us about the structural nature of a language or about the natural integrity of a given language.
Not really they accurately reflect the nature of the two languages and allow us to accurately acess there relationship.
How do trade nouns allow us to accurately learn the nature and natural integrity of the language wherein it diffused? Elaborate. I'll address other issues later, when I have time.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
How do trade nouns allow us to accurately learn the nature and natural integrity of the language wherein it diffused? Elaborate. I'll address other issues later, when I have time.
You have not presented any evidence that the basanji dog was a trade item. Also what is a trade noun?
In the Paleolithic specialized hunting began a part of man's culture. A major domesticate for man was the dog. The dog is seen as a culture term, since it reflects an aspect of Egyptian and Mande culture, i.e., hunting and herding. The dog can be traded, but, it is not a trade noun.
.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
How do trade nouns allow us to accurately learn the nature and natural integrity of the language wherein it diffused? Elaborate. I'll address other issues later, when I have time.
You have not presented any evidence that the basanji dog was a trade item. Also what is a trade noun?
A trade noun, as should be obvious, is a noun for an item that is acquired from outside, which would otherwise be not available without importation.
You've provided no evidence that the Basenji dog is indicative of mass migration; that is the bottom line. Nor does this dog act as a linguistic evidence for your claim.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
In the Paleolithic specialized hunting began a part of man's culture. A major domesticate for man was the dog. The dog is seen as a culture term, since it reflects an aspect of Egyptian and Mande culture, i.e., hunting and herding. The dog can be traded, but, it is not a trade noun.
As you said, the Basenji dog is relatively rare in the western corner of the continent, and as such, one would expect a proper noun name for this dog. If so, how does this noun help us learn about the structure and natural integrity of a given language? Elaborate. Your comparative terms for dog, isn't strong enough to suggest that the words for dog in the various languages came from the Nile Valley.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
How do trade nouns allow us to accurately learn the nature and natural integrity of the language wherein it diffused? Elaborate. I'll address other issues later, when I have time.
You have not presented any evidence that the basanji dog was a trade item. Also what is a trade noun?
A trade noun, as should be obvious, is a noun for an item that is acquired from outside, which would otherwise be not available without importation.
You've provided no evidence that the Basenji dog is indicative of mass migration; that is the bottom line. Nor does this dog act as a linguistic evidence for your claim.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
In the Paleolithic specialized hunting began a part of man's culture. A major domesticate for man was the dog. The dog is seen as a culture term, since it reflects an aspect of Egyptian and Mande culture, i.e., hunting and herding. The dog can be traded, but, it is not a trade noun.
As you said, the Basenji dog is relatively rare in the western corner of the continent, and as such, one would expect a proper noun name for this dog. If so, how does this noun help us learn about the structure and natural integrity of a given language? Elaborate. Your comparative terms for dog, isn't strong enough to suggest that the words for dog in the various languages came from the Nile Valley.
This is your opinion. Suffice to say that no one can change another person's mind. As a result, I have presented the evidence in support of Welmers theory of the basanji dog being an indicator for the migration of the Niger-Congo speakers formerly living in the Nile Valley. I will leave it to the readers to decide its relevance.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: I agree that some scholars denote and ancient relationship between the Nilo-saharan and Niger Congo families, although the order of time depth given is usually very great.
I don't see how the domesticated Dog, can prove that West Africa was uninhabited since the old Kingdom 5kya, or that it's current population come mainly from the Nile Valley.
West Africa has been populated continuously since the Holocene at least.
I grant you evidence is poor in the forest regions, but still - we have the 8000 year old Canoe disovered in Borno Nigeria, and the 7000 year old proto-Fulani Cave Art from Algeria.
Nobody said the area was uninhabited, the pygmy people were there but no Niger -Congo speakers were in the area until around 3000 BC. For example, the Mande make it clear they were not the original inhabitants of the places where they live.
.
Brooks, G. E. 1989 “Ecological Perspectives on Mande Population Movements, Commercial Networks, and Settlement Patterns from the Atlantic Wet Phase (Ca. 5500-2500 B.C.) to the Present,” History in Africa, 16: 23-40.
quote:Insofar as linguistic analyses and archaeological research inform historical reconstructions, it may be inferred that proto-Mande speakers lived in dispersed groups in the area between the bends of the Senegal and Niger rivers prior to and during the Atlantic Wet Phase (ca. 5500-2500 B.C.). During these three millennia proto-Mande-speaking hunter-gatherers moved northwards to take advantage of living conditions in the "green" Sahara, which may have had three to four times more rainfall (Figure 1) than during the intermediate period 1930-1960 depicted on Map 1, when rainfall was approximately 100 millimeters annually.
Indeed.
Dr. Winters may also want to consider that Pygmy is a phenotype [smallness of size], it's not a language.
And there is neither proof that the entire population of West Africa was small in size [in the neolithic and earlier], nor is their proof that early west Africans, big and small, did not speak Niger Congo languages.
And the Basinji dog proves nothing about the history of West African languages at all.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
How do trade nouns allow us to accurately learn the nature and natural integrity of the language wherein it diffused? Elaborate. I'll address other issues later, when I have time.
You have not presented any evidence that the basanji dog was a trade item. Also what is a trade noun?
A trade noun, as should be obvious, is a noun for an item that is acquired from outside, which would otherwise be not available without importation.
You've provided no evidence that the Basenji dog is indicative of mass migration; that is the bottom line. Nor does this dog act as a linguistic evidence for your claim.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
In the Paleolithic specialized hunting began a part of man's culture. A major domesticate for man was the dog. The dog is seen as a culture term, since it reflects an aspect of Egyptian and Mande culture, i.e., hunting and herding. The dog can be traded, but, it is not a trade noun.
As you said, the Basenji dog is relatively rare in the western corner of the continent, and as such, one would expect a proper noun name for this dog. If so, how does this noun help us learn about the structure and natural integrity of a given language? Elaborate. Your comparative terms for dog, isn't strong enough to suggest that the words for dog in the various languages came from the Nile Valley.
This is your opinion.
I've expressed no opinion herein, but I have put forth a set of *tests* to see how much your claim holds. Your lack of answers suggests that they didn't hold at all to the test.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Suffice to say that no one can change another person's mind.
True, but there is such a thing as disproving and proving. You don't have to change someone's mind for this to be accomplished.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
As a result, I have presented the evidence in support of Welmers theory of the basanji dog being an indicator for the migration of the Niger-Congo speakers formerly living in the Nile Valley. I will leave it to the readers to decide its relevance.
There are various other holes in your earlier post, which have been discredited in other threads, e.g. namely timeframes for the migration of Niger-Congo speakers into the region, which is why I decided to put the light on the significance of the Basenji dogs in linguitic analysis. Thus far, nothing suggests that the Basenji dog has any such relevancy.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
How do trade nouns allow us to accurately learn the nature and natural integrity of the language wherein it diffused? Elaborate. I'll address other issues later, when I have time.
You have not presented any evidence that the basanji dog was a trade item. Also what is a trade noun?
A trade noun, as should be obvious, is a noun for an item that is acquired from outside, which would otherwise be not available without importation.
You've provided no evidence that the Basenji dog is indicative of mass migration; that is the bottom line. Nor does this dog act as a linguistic evidence for your claim.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
In the Paleolithic specialized hunting began a part of man's culture. A major domesticate for man was the dog. The dog is seen as a culture term, since it reflects an aspect of Egyptian and Mande culture, i.e., hunting and herding. The dog can be traded, but, it is not a trade noun.
As you said, the Basenji dog is relatively rare in the western corner of the continent, and as such, one would expect a proper noun name for this dog. If so, how does this noun help us learn about the structure and natural integrity of a given language? Elaborate. Your comparative terms for dog, isn't strong enough to suggest that the words for dog in the various languages came from the Nile Valley.
This is your opinion.
I've expressed no opinion herein, but I have put forth a set of *tests* to see how much your claim holds. Your lack of answers suggests that they didn't hold at all to the test.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Suffice to say that no one can change another person's mind.
True, but there is such a thing as disproving and proving. You don't have to change someone's mind for this to be accomplished.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
As a result, I have presented the evidence in support of Welmers theory of the basanji dog being an indicator for the migration of the Niger-Congo speakers formerly living in the Nile Valley. I will leave it to the readers to decide its relevance.
There are various other holes in your earlier post, which have been discredited in other threads, e.g. namely timeframes for the migration of Niger-Congo speakers into the region, which is why I decided to put the light on the significance of the Basenji dogs in linguitic analysis. Thus far, nothing suggests that the Basenji dog has any such relevancy.
This is my last post in relation to the basanji dog. You have proven nothing except you don't have a clue about testing hypothesis and science generally.
You have mixed up "common sense" with science. Common sense is used in a loose fashion. Science study phenomena systematically to test hypothesis. Nonscientist test hypothesis in a selective fashion. Science test hypothesis using systematic empirical tests.
There are four methods of knowing: The method of tenacity, i.e., someone knows something is true because they hold firmly to their belief. The second method of knowing is the method of authority, a situation in which someone takes a body of facts and informtion on the basis of authority. The third method of knowing is the method of intuition, i.e., that propositions accepted by the "priorist" are self-evident because they may agree with reason but, not necessarialy with experience. The final method of knowing is science, it has a characteristic that no other method of attaining knowledge i.e., self-correction. As a result, even when a hypothesis is supported by an experiment, the scientist test alternative plausible hypotheses, that if supported by the evidence, may cast doubt on the first hypothesis.
The key to science, is that control is used to test the cause of a hypothesis, layman rarely use control, they accept a hypothesis gased on belief and biases.
Finally scientists test relationships to determine their validity. Science is concerned only with things that can be tested and observed.
Let's look at Welmers hypothesis. All research begins with a research question.
Research Question: Where did the Niger Congo speakers originate?
Null hypothesis: There is no relationship between the present location of the Niger-Congo speakers and the original homeland of the speakers of these languages.
Result: The Niger Congo speakers probably originated in the Nile Valley because the Kpelle , who speak a Mande language, have the basanji dog, which was the domesticated dog of the Egyptians and other Nile Valley people.
The hypothesis was further supported by a most interesting finding, that was that the basanji dog is not the hunting dog of other ethnic groups inhabiting areas between the Nile Valley and where the Mande speakers live.
Welmers hypothesis was confirmed. To disconfirm this hypothesis you have to present evidence that nullifies the findings of Welmers.
To test Welmers hypothesis, I compared the Egyptian term for dog and the Mande term for dog. The linguistic evidence supports the physical evidence discussed by Welmer.
Let's look at the counter hypothesis presented by Rasol and Mystery Solver: The Niger-Congo people did not originate in the Nile Valley.
What is the evidence Rasol and Mystery Solver present to confirm their hyptohesis. Up to now they have no evidence in support of their hypothesis.
The absence of evidence in support of Rasol and Mystery Solver, indicates that their method of knowing is the "method of tenacity". These "researchers" hold firmly to this "truth" because they know it to be true. Frequent repetition of these "truths", i.e.,1) the Afrasian languages exist; 2) Egyptian is not related to the Bantu languages; and 3) West African people never lived in the Nile Valley,allow Rasol and Mystery Solver to hold to these beliefs in the face of clearly conflicting facts supported by physical and linguistic evidence.
In your post you claim my timeframe is incorrect. I supported this timeframe with archaeological evidence for the migration of people from the Saharan highlands and the Fezzan into Tichitt and later the Niger Valley. Neither you nor anyone else has presented evidence disputing the archaeological evidence for the migration of the Mande into West Africa based on the timeframe supported by the archaeological evidence.
Until you present the archaeological evidence of Mande speakers in the Senegal-Niger region 5000 years ago--this is just your opinion. It has no validity. Until you present the archaeological evidence that disconfirms the evidence in support of my hypothesis I will ignore your comments. They are based on the "method of tenacity". But eventhough you accept them as true they are purely conjecture and invalid.
Mystery Solver
quote: True, but there is such a thing as disproving and proving. You don't have to change someone's mind for this to be accomplished.
As you can see Mystery Solver, science has nothing to do with convincing someone to believe in something they don't already believe in. It does not have anything to do with proving anything either.
Research is about confirming and disconfirming hypothesis through hypothesis testing. You have tested no counter hypotheses so you have not disconfirmed the hypothesis. Your comments are based on the "truths" you hold to be true, they are not confirmed by science.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [Let's look at Welmers hypothesis. All research begins with a research question.
Research Question: Where did the Niger Congo speakers originate?
Null hypothesis: There is no relationship between the present location of the Niger-Congo speakers and the original homeland of the speakers of these languages.
Result: The Niger Congo speakers probably originated in the Nile Valley because the Kpelle , who speak a Mande language, have the basanji dog, which was the domesticated dog of the Egyptians and other Nile Valley people.
The hypothesis was further supported by a most interesting finding, that was that the basanji dog is not the hunting dog of other ethnic groups inhabiting areas between the Nile Valley and where the Mande speakers live.
Welmers hypothesis was confirmed. To disconfirm this hypothesis you have to present evidence that nullifies the findings of Welmers.
To test Welmers hypothesis, I compared the Egyptian term for dog and the Mande term for dog. The linguistic evidence supports the physical evidence discussed by Welmer.
L. [/QB]
The question is what did Welmers [1971 old] actually say:
He qualified his statements "judicious speculation" "an original Niger-Congo homeland. . . is probably as good a hypothesis as any."
1) The Homeland of Niger-Congo was southern Sudan and Uganda
2) the homeland and migration point of the Mande was northern Dahomey [ now Benin] not the Nile Valley.
3) The Mande migrated through empty land because Sahara was occupied by Nilo-Saharan speakers.
i.e. to our previous posts- the Fezzan was occupied by Nilo-Saharans not Mande, which also agrees with Ehret (1993)
The null hypothesis is thus "did the Mande migrate from Benin to their present location."
4) Support for this is the presence of Basenji (who originated in southern Sudan/Uganda) and was carried by the original settlers -- through uninhabited land-- and arrived at Liberia without being cross-bred. Welmer's points out that in " all the Sudan belt of Africa from the Nile Valley to the Liberian forest, the dogs are very similar in appearance [to Basenjis], but very obviously mongrelized.
5) The usual Egyptian word for “dog” is /iw/ or [iwiw/ and "hound" is tesem. (Gardiner 1994: 459)
Here is the quote from Welmers: Wm. E. Welmers. 1971 "Niger-Congo, Mande" in T.A. Sebeok, et al. eds. Linguistics in sub-Saharan Africa (Current Trends in Linguistics, 7), pp. 113-140 The Hague: Mouton
P 119-120. By way of conclusion to this general overview of the Mande languages, a a bit of judicious speculation about Mande origins and migrations may not be out of order. It has already been stated that the Mande languages clearly represent the earliest offshoot from the parent Niger-Congo stock—not counting Kordofanian, which Greenberg considers parallel to all of the Niger-Congo, forming a Niger-Kordofanian macrofamily. An original Niger-Congo homeland in the general vicinity of the upper Nile valley is probably as good a hypothesis as any. From such a homeland, a westward Mande migration may have begun well over 5000 years ago. Perhaps the earliest division within this group resulted in the isolation of what is now represented only by Bobo-fing. Somewhat later— perhaps 3500 to 4500 years ago, and possibly from a new homeland around northern Dahomey [now Benin]— the ancestors of the present Northern-western Mande peoples began pushing farther west, ultimately reaching their present homeland in the grasslands and forests of West Africa. This was followed by a gradual spread of the Southern-Eastern division, culminating perhaps 2000 years ago in the separation of its to branches and the ultimate movement of Southern Mande peoples southeast and westward until Mano and Kpelle, long separated, became once more contiguous.
This reconstruction of Mande prehistory receives striking support from a most unexpected source— dogs. Back in the presumed Niger-Congo homeland—the southern Sudan and northern Uganda of modern times— is found the unique barkless, worried-looking, fleet Basenji, who also appears on ancient Egyptian monuments with the typical bee that compensates for his natural silence. Among the Kpelle and Loma people of Liberia, a breed of dogs is found which is so closely identical to the Basenji that it now recognized as the ‘Liberian Basenji’. In all of the Sudan belt of Africa from the Nile Valley to the Liberian forest, the dogs are somewhat similar in appearance, but very obviously mongrelized. It would appear that the Mande peoples originally took their Basenji dogs with them in their westward migration. At that time, the present Sahara desert was capable of sustaining a substantial population, and was presumably the homeland of the Nilo-Saharan peoples. The early Mande moment thus may have been through uninhabited land, and their dogs were spared any cross-breeding. The farthest westward Mande movement—that of the Southwestern group—was virtually complete before contact with dogs of other breeds. With the gradual drying of the Sahara and the southward movement of the Nilo-Saharan peoples, the remaining Mande peoples, as well as later waves of Niger-Congo migration made contact with other people and other dogs. The present canine population of the Liberian forests thus reflects the very early departure of the Mande peoples from their original homeland, and the subsequent early movement of the Southwestern group towards its present location, without contacting substantial number of unrelated people or dogs.
Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl: Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
[Quote]Let's look at Welmers hypothesis. All research begins with a research question.
Research Question: Where did the Niger Congo speakers originate?
Null hypothesis: There is no relationship between the present location of the Niger-Congo speakers and the original homeland of the speakers of these languages.
Result: The Niger Congo speakers probably originated in the Nile Valley because the Kpelle , who speak a Mande language, have the basanji dog, which was the domesticated dog of the Egyptians and other Nile Valley people.
The hypothesis was further supported by a most interesting finding, that was that the basanji dog is not the hunting dog of other ethnic groups inhabiting areas between the Nile Valley and where the Mande speakers live.
Welmers hypothesis was confirmed. To disconfirm this hypothesis you have to present evidence that nullifies the findings of Welmers.
To test Welmers hypothesis, I compared the Egyptian term for dog and the Mande term for dog. The linguistic evidence supports the physical evidence discussed by Welmers.
The question is what did Welmers [1971 old] actually say:
He qualified his statements "judicious speculation" "an original Niger-Congo homeland. . . is probably as good a hypothesis as any."
1) The Homeland of Niger-Congo was southern Sudan and Uganda
2) the homeland and migration point of the Mande was northern Dahomey [ now Benin] not the Nile Valley.
3) The Mande migrated through empty land because Sahara was occupied by Nilo-Saharan speakers.
i.e. to our previous posts- the Fezzan was occupied by Nilo-Saharans not Mande, which also agrees with Ehret (1993)
The null hypothesis is thus "did the Mande migrate from Benin to their present location."
4) Support for this is the presence of Basenji (who originated in southern Sudan/Uganda) and was carried by the original settlers -- through uninhabited land-- and arrived at Liberia without being cross-bred. Welmer's points out that in " all the Sudan belt of Africa from the Nile Valley to the Liberian forest, the dogs are very similar in appearance [to Basenjis], but very obviously mongrelized.
5) The usual Egyptian word for “dog” is /iw/ or [iwiw/ and "hound" is tesem. (Gardiner 1994: 459)
quote: Here is the quote from Welmers: Wm. E. Welmers. 1971 "Niger-Congo, Mande" in T.A. Sebeok, et al. eds. Linguistics in sub-Saharan Africa (Current Trends in Linguistics, 7), pp. 113-140 The Hague: Mouton
P 119-120. By way of conclusion to this general overview of the Mande languages, a a bit of judicious speculation about Mande origins and migrations may not be out of order. It has already been stated that the Mande languages clearly represent the earliest offshoot from the parent Niger-Congo stock—not counting Kordofanian, which Greenberg considers parallel to all of the Niger-Congo, forming a Niger-Kordofanian macrofamily. An original Niger-Congo homeland in the general vicinity of the upper Nile valley is probably as good a hypothesis as any. From such a homeland, a westward Mande migration may have begun well over 5000 years ago. Perhaps the earliest division within this group resulted in the isolation of what is now represented only by Bobo-fing. Somewhat later— perhaps 3500 to 4500 years ago, and possibly from a new homeland around northern Dahomey [now Benin]— the ancestors of the present Northern-western Mande peoples began pushing farther west, ultimately reaching their present homeland in the grasslands and forests of West Africa. This was followed by a gradual spread of the Southern-Eastern division, culminating perhaps 2000 years ago in the separation of its to branches and the ultimate movement of Southern Mande peoples southeast and westward until Mano and Kpelle, long separated, became once more contiguous.
This reconstruction of Mande prehistory receives striking support from a most unexpected source— dogs. Back in the presumed Niger-Congo homeland—the southern Sudan and northern Uganda of modern times— is found the unique barkless, worried-looking, fleet Basenji, who also appears on ancient Egyptian monuments with the typical bee that compensates for his natural silence. Among the Kpelle and Loma people of Liberia, a breed of dogs is found which is so closely identical to the Basenji that it now recognized as the ‘Liberian Basenji’. In all of the Sudan belt of Africa from the Nile Valley to the Liberian forest, the dogs are somewhat similar in appearance, but very obviously mongrelized. It would appear that the Mande peoples originally took their Basenji dogs with them in their westward migration. At that time, the present Sahara desert was capable of sustaining a substantial population, and was presumably the homeland of the Nilo-Saharan peoples. The early Mande moment thus may have been through uninhabited land, and their dogs were spared any cross-breeding. The farthest westward Mande movement—that of the Southwestern group—was virtually complete before contact with dogs of other breeds. With the gradual drying of the Sahara and the southward movement of the Nilo-Saharan peoples, the remaining Mande peoples, as well as later waves of Niger-Congo migration made contact with other people and other dogs. The present canine population of the Liberian forests thus reflects the very early departure of the Mande peoples from their original homeland, and the subsequent early movement of the Southwestern group towards its present location, without contacting substantial number of unrelated people or dogs.
.
Point #2 above is false. Welmers did not say Benin was the original homeland of the Mande, he said it may have been a "new" homeland.
He makes it clear that the Mande migration began around 3000BC out of the Nile Valley.
Welmers proposed migration from Benin was as late as 1500BC, 1500 years after the initial migration of the Mande from the Nile Valley.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
These are the various Egyptian dogs. The term iwiw related to the bark of these dogs. The basanji does not bark so this term does not relate to the basanji dog.
quote: The ancient Egyptian word for dog was "iwiw", which referred to the dog's bark. They served a roll in hunting, as guard and police dogs, in military actions and as household pets. They are well known to us from ancient Egyptian paintings, but their breed is still difficult to discern completely. However, these pictures show resemblance to basenji, saluki, greyhounds, mastiffs others.
posted
Great information you've been posting on the subject, Dr. Winters!
...some miscellaneous addendum on words for 'dog' in Egyptian... (The passage quoted above should have more accurately stated: "An ancient Egyptian word for dog was "iwiw"...)
Coptic:
ouakhbef - bark, growl of dog oukhor - dog kalwpou small dog, lap dog?
Pharaonic Egyptian:
wkhor - dog Tsm - dog
iwiw appears to be an onomatopoeic word which merely mimics the sound of something; in this case, a dog - (ee)Woo (ee)Woo ...
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Wally: Great information you've been posting on the subject, Dr. Winters!
...some miscellaneous addendum on words for 'dog' in Egyptian... (The passage quoted above should have more accurately stated: "An ancient Egyptian word for dog was "iwiw"...)
Coptic:
ouakhbef - bark, growl of dog oukhor - dog kalwpou small dog, lap dog?
Pharaonic Egyptian:
wkhor - dog Tsm - dog
iwiw appears to be an onomatopoeic word which merely mimics the sound of something; in this case, a dog - (ee)Woo (ee)Woo ...
Thanks
is there a reference for uher as an Egyptian name for Basenji since we are trying to be precise?
Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Wally: [qb] Great information you've been posting on the subject, Dr. Winters!
...some miscellaneous addendum on words for 'dog' in Egyptian... (The passage quoted above should have more accurately stated: "An ancient Egyptian word for dog was "iwiw"...)
Coptic:
ouakhbef - bark, growl of dog oukhor - dog kalwpou small dog, lap dog?
Pharaonic Egyptian:
wkhor - dog Tsm - dog
iwiw appears to be an onomatopoeic word which merely mimics the sound of something; in this case, a dog - (ee)Woo (ee)Woo ...
Thanks
is there a reference for uher as an Egyptian name for Basenji since we are trying to be precise?
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Liberian Basenji
Egyptian Basenji Egyptian Basenji Dog Hieroglyph
.
The term for Basenji may be uher. In Egyptian uher also means house, so some people claim the Egyptians placed a dog sign after uher to denote the term dog (note hieroglyphs).
Niger-Congo hunters probably early domesticated the dog. Hunters used dogs to catch their prey .
Egyptian Hieroglyph
That a basenji-like pictogram makes up the word dog is not at all surprising. During the Old Kingdom, when writing was in an early stage of development, the basenji was--based on its popularity in tomb carvings--"the most commonly portrayed type of dog in Egyptian art," claims Patrick Houlihan in The Animal World of the Pharaohs.
.
The iconographic evidence from the Old Kingdom tombs make it clear the Mande would have employed the basanji as a hunting down early in the history of the Mande speakers while they lived in the Nile Valley.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Great information you've been posting on the subject, Dr. Winters!
Why wink then? Is that meant to cover yourself, so you can later claim that you are not being serious?
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
The problem with the Basenji hypothesis is that the presence of this dog in West Africa per se proves rather little.
Even if every Basenji in West Africa were the direct descendant of Narmer-Meni's own 'royale' Breed of Canine - it would only prove something about the ancestry....of the dogs, not humans.
In no way would this prove that West Africans are not descendant from native saharans and forest folk from the Holocene but rather Dynastic Egyptians.
You ignore human genetics..... but then substitute dog pedigree as proof of human ancestry ? ? ?
You do know that some genetic analysis of domesticated dogs indicate that they diverged from Eurasian wolves 100 thousand years ago, and that all dogs may have a common ancestry out of *east* asia from 15 thousand years ago?
Would you say this proves the East Asian ancestry of all human populations?
You need linguistic and genetic evidence to prove your claim of Nile Valley origins of Niger Congo langauge and speakers.
Bansenji dog theorem of Niger Congo language is bizarrely illogical.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote: Research Question: Where did the Niger Congo speakers originate?
Yes, this is the question.
quote: Null hypothesis: There is no relationship between the present location of the Niger-Congo speakers and the original homeland of the speakers of these languages.
This is *your* hypothesis?
If so, it is profoundly difficult to establish.
Indeed one might ask how their can ever be *no relationship*, between present and original location of anything.
Anything that is at location a) and formerly was at location b), according to the laws of physics must have arrived at it's present location thru some mechanism, which would then denote the relationship.
This is true whether the distance between point a and b is 1 million kilometers or 0 kilometers.
As stated by you, the null hypothesis would in this case defy the principal of cause and effect.
Your null hypothesis - is impossible.
Maybe you mean to say something else?
quote: Result: The Niger Congo speakers probably originated in the Nile Valley because the Kpelle , who speak a Mande language, have the basanji dog, which was the domesticated dog of the Egyptians and other Nile Valley people.
Result? Of what? That's a non-sequitur. You need to show Mandingo speakers in the Nile Valley, not East African dogs, or for that mattter Asian Sheep and goats and Camels in West Africa, which proves nothing.
A more intelligible approach to the 'null' hypothesis requires you to prove that either
a) West Africa was uninhabited prior to dynastic Nile Valley civilisation.
b) West Africa was inhabited, prior to dynastic times, but only by non Niger Congo language speakers.
c) Modern West Africans are completely unrelated in language and geneology to the pre dynastic West Africans.
You also need to explain the vastness of the Niger Congo family, and it's distribution in Central to West Southern Africa, but not Nile Valley or Ethiopia North East Africa, where you claim it was quite recently born.
Maybe you can keep other posters happily chasing the dogs tail, but I for one would like substance, and not more of your wild claims.
Why you reduce African history to absurdity... I will never understand. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:The iconographic evidence from the Old Kingdom tombs make it clear the Mande would have employed the basanji as a hunting down early in the history of the Mande speakers while they lived in the Nile Valley.
Again, the most ludicrously illogical premises are proferred by you.
You show a picture of a Native Nile Valley dog, in the Nile Valley....and pretend as if you just offered proof that the Mandingo lived in the Nile Valley?
Question:
Who's the target audience for this stuff?
Who thinks this makes sense?
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [The term for Basenji may be uher. In Egyptian uher also means house, so some people claim the Egyptians placed a dog sign after uher to denote the term dog (note hieroglyphs).
. [/QB]
This is merely a supposition on your part. Can you cite the Egyptian dictionary that says that "uher" means Basenji? if not, then all the linguistics of dog names is your first post on this topic is not relevant or probative.
Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged |
A more intelligible approach to the 'null' hypothesis requires you to prove that either
a) West Africa was uninhabited prior to dynastic Nile Valley civilisation.
b) West Africa was inhabited, prior to dynastic times, but only by non Niger Congo language speakers.
c) Modern West Africans are completely unrelated in language and geneology to the pre dynastic West Africans.
[/QB]
A couple of relevant quotes to the above
Roger Blench. 2006. Archaeology, Language, and the African Past New York: Altamira Press
quote: pp. 132-133. With some misgivings, Table 3.4 puts forward dates and possible motives for expansion for the families of Niger-Congo. The dates are arranged in order of antiquity, not in the hypothetical order suggested by the genetic tree, and, in many cases the two are strongly at variance. There is no necessary correlation between the age of a family estimated from its apparent internal diversity and the date at which it appears to split from the Niger-Congo tree.. . . . .
MANDE 6000 BP Mande languages have spread from north to south with scattered outliers in Nigeria and Cote d’Ivoire. Mande shares the common Niger-Congo roots for cow and goat, and perhaps the Proto-Mande were an isolated livestock-keeping population at the edge of the desert, which expanded southward as habitat change created potential space for livestock keeping. Reconstructions implying cropping are not present in the protolanguage.
Christopher Ehret. 2000 “Language and History,” in B. Heine and D. Nurse, eds. African Languages.An Introduction pp. 274-297 Canbridge: Cambridge University Press
quote: p. 294 A second, but still early and important stage in Niger-Congo history was the proto-Mande-Congo era. At this period, or so it appears from the evidence of word histories, the cultivation of the guinea yam and possibly other crops, such as the oil palm, began among at least the peoples of the Atlantic and Ijo-Congo branches of the family (Williamson 1993 proposes the early words for these crops; Greenberg 1964 identifies an Atlantic and Ijo-Congo verb for cultivation, •-lim-). Between possibly about 8000 and 6000 BC, these people spread across the woodland savannahs of West Africa, the natural environment of the Guinea yams. At that time, woodland savannah environments extended several hundred kilometers farther north into the Sudan belt than they do today.
This is my last post in relation to the basanji dog. You have proven nothing except you don't have a clue about testing hypothesis and science generally.
How has this been proven?...perhaps by the fact:
*That the Basenji dog has no linguistic relevance?
*The Basenji dog doesn't prove mass migration, if even one were to account its presence through this means?
* The Basenji dog's presence in the region doesn't have to involve migration from the Nile Valley. It could have been attained through trade across the Sahara?
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
You have mixed up "common sense" with science.
Where specifically?
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Common sense is used in a loose fashion. Science study phenomena systematically to test hypothesis. Nonscientist test hypothesis in a selective fashion. Science test hypothesis using systematic empirical tests.
Fact is, your post fails to pass a test for either common sense or science.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
There are four methods of knowing: The method of tenacity, i.e., someone knows something is true because they hold firmly to their belief. The second method of knowing is the method of authority, a situation in which someone takes a body of facts and informtion on the basis of authority. The third method of knowing is the method of intuition, i.e., that propositions accepted by the "priorist" are self-evident because they may agree with reason but, not necessarialy with experience. The final method of knowing is science, it has a characteristic that no other method of attaining knowledge i.e., self-correction. As a result, even when a hypothesis is supported by an experiment, the scientist test alternative plausible hypotheses, that if supported by the evidence, may cast doubt on the first hypothesis.
The key to science, is that control is used to test the cause of a hypothesis, layman rarely use control, they accept a hypothesis gased on belief and biases.
Finally scientists test relationships to determine their validity. Science is concerned only with things that can be tested and observed.
Let's look at Welmers hypothesis. All research begins with a research question.
Research Question: Where did the Niger Congo speakers originate?
Null hypothesis: There is no relationship between the present location of the Niger-Congo speakers and the original homeland of the speakers of these languages.
Result: The Niger Congo speakers probably originated in the Nile Valley because the Kpelle , who speak a Mande language, have the basanji dog, which was the domesticated dog of the Egyptians and other Nile Valley people.
The hypothesis was further supported by a most interesting finding, that was that the basanji dog is not the hunting dog of other ethnic groups inhabiting areas between the Nile Valley and where the Mande speakers live.
Welmers hypothesis was confirmed. To disconfirm this hypothesis you have to present evidence that nullifies the findings of Welmers.
To test Welmers hypothesis, I compared the Egyptian term for dog and the Mande term for dog. The linguistic evidence supports the physical evidence discussed by Welmer.
Cut the jibberish and please answer the specific questions placed before you.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Let's look at the counter hypothesis presented by Rasol and Mystery Solver: The Niger-Congo people did not originate in the Nile Valley.
What is the evidence Rasol and Mystery Solver present to confirm their hyptohesis. Up to now they have no evidence in support of their hypothesis.
What Niger-Congo language is spoken in the lower Nile Valley [Egypt - Sudan]...or are you under the impression that they all vacated?
Just because you are forgetful and could care less for objective analysis, doesn't mean that evidence hasn't already been made available.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The absence of evidence in support of Rasol and Mystery Solver, indicates that their method of knowing is the "method of tenacity". These "researchers" hold firmly to this "truth" because they know it to be true. Frequent repetition of these "truths", i.e.,1) the Afrasian languages exist; 2) Egyptian is not related to the Bantu languages; and 3) West African people never lived in the Nile Valley,allow Rasol and Mystery Solver to hold to these beliefs in the face of clearly conflicting facts supported by physical and linguistic evidence.
Come down from La La Land, and learn. I deal with linguistic evidence [as in here: Theophile Obenga & Negro-Egyptien] ; genetic evidence is supplementary, and I've dealt with that in various threads. You haven't shown any elaborate genetic [linguistic sense], chronological and lexical evidence for closer relationship between Egyptic and Niger-Congo languages than Egyptic and Afrasan languages.
quote: Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
In your post you claim my timeframe is incorrect. I supported this timeframe with archaeological evidence for the migration of people from the Saharan highlands and the Fezzan into Tichitt and later the Niger Valley. Neither you nor anyone else has presented evidence disputing the archaeological evidence for the migration of the Mande into West Africa based on the timeframe supported by the archaeological evidence.
I'm not going to bother repeating, when it is there in the link to read.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Mystery Solver
quote: True, but there is such a thing as disproving and proving. You don't have to change someone's mind for this to be accomplished.
As you can see Mystery Solver, science has nothing to do with convincing someone to believe in something they don't already believe in. It does not have anything to do with proving anything either.
That last statement makes no sense. Elaborate on how science doesn't prove anything.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Research is about confirming and disconfirming hypothesis through hypothesis testing. You have tested no counter hypotheses so you have not disconfirmed the hypothesis. Your comments are based on the "truths" you hold to be true, they are not confirmed by science.
Code word for: "I don't have the answers to your concise and specific questions, and so, I'll just ramble on about nothing, and hope that the unattended questions are forgotten".
Case in point:
Therefore I will not discuss this matter further. - Clyde Winters
You can run, but you can't hide.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
A more intelligible approach to the 'null' hypothesis requires you to prove that either
a) West Africa was uninhabited prior to dynastic Nile Valley civilisation.
b) West Africa was inhabited, prior to dynastic times, but only by non Niger Congo language speakers.
c) Modern West Africans are completely unrelated in language and geneology to the pre dynastic West Africans.
A couple of relevant quotes to the above
Roger Blench. 2006. Archaeology, Language, and the African Past New York: Altamira Press
quote: pp. 132-133. With some misgivings, Table 3.4 puts forward dates and possible motives for expansion for the families of Niger-Congo. The dates are arranged in order of antiquity, not in the hypothetical order suggested by the genetic tree, and, in many cases the two are strongly at variance. There is no necessary correlation between the age of a family estimated from its apparent internal diversity and the date at which it appears to split from the Niger-Congo tree.. . . . .
MANDE 6000 BP Mande languages have spread from north to south with scattered outliers in Nigeria and Cote d’Ivoire. Mande shares the common Niger-Congo roots for cow and goat, and perhaps the Proto-Mande were an isolated livestock-keeping population at the edge of the desert, which expanded southward as habitat change created potential space for livestock keeping. Reconstructions implying cropping are not present in the protolanguage.
Christopher Ehret. 2000 “Language and History,” in B. Heine and D. Nurse, eds. African Languages.An Introduction pp. 274-297 Canbridge: Cambridge University Press
quote: p. 294 A second, but still early and important stage in Niger-Congo history was the proto-Mande-Congo era. At this period, or so it appears from the evidence of word histories, the cultivation of the guinea yam and possibly other crops, such as the oil palm, began among at least the peoples of the Atlantic and Ijo-Congo branches of the family (Williamson 1993 proposes the early words for these crops; Greenberg 1964 identifies an Atlantic and Ijo-Congo verb for cultivation, •-lim-). Between possibly about 8000 and 6000 BC, these people spread across the woodland savannahs of West Africa, the natural environment of the Guinea yams. At that time, woodland savannah environments extended several hundred kilometers farther north into the Sudan belt than they do today.
[/QB]
The Blench hypothesis of the Mande living in the Sahara and moving southward does not conflict with my theory of a Saharan origin for the Mande speakers.
The term lim, is not the Mande term to cultivate.
In al-Imfeld, Decolonizing: African Agricultural History (2007) , claims that in relation to African agriculture the cultivation of yam began 10,000 years ago and rice cultivation in Africa by 6000 BC.
The major cultivated crop of the Mande speakers was millet not the yam. The term for cultivation among the Mande was not lim is Proto-Paleo-Afro-Dravidian *be . Millet was probably cultivated over 5000 years ago.
The earliest sites for the cultivation of millet lie in the Sahara . Here the earliest archaeological evidence has been found for African millets.
The major grain exploited by Saharan populations was rice ,the yam and pennisetum. McIntosh and McIntosh (1988) has shown that the principal domesticate in the southern Sahara was bulrush millet (pennisetum). Millet impressions have been found on Mande ceramics from both Karkarchinkat in the Tilemsi Valley of Mali, and Dar Tichitt in Mauritania between 4000 and 3000 BP. (McIntosh & McIntosh 1983a,1988; Winters 1986b; Andah 1981)
The linguistic evidence indicates that the Mande and Dravidian speakers formerly lived in intimate contact , in the Sahara. The speakers of these languages share many terms for agriculture.
Given the archaeological evidence for millets in the Sahara, leads to the corollary theory that if the Dravidians originated in Africa, they would share analogous terms for millet with African groups that formerly lived in the Sahara.
One of the principal groups to use millet in Africa are the Northern Mande speaking people . The Mande speaking people belong to the Niger-Congo group. Most linguist agree that the Mande speakers were the first Niger-Congo group to leave the original Nile Valley and Saharan highland primary homeands of the Niger-Congo speakers.
The Northern Mande speakers are divided into the Soninke and Malinke-Bambara groups. Holl (1985,1989) believes that the founders of the Dhar Tichitt site where millet was cultivated in the 2nd millenium B.C., were northern Mande speakers. To test this theory we will compare Dravidian and Black African agricultural terms, especially Northern Mande. The linguistic evidence suggest that the Proto-Dravidians belonged to an ancient sedentary culture which existed in Saharan Africa. We will call the ancestor of this group Paleo-Dravido-Africans.
The Dravidian terms for millet are listed in the Dravidian Etymological Dictionary at 2359, 4300 and 2671. A cursory review of the linguistic examples provided below from the Dravidian (Kol, Tamil ,Kannanda, & Malayalam ) , Mande and Wolof languages show a close relationship between these language. These terms are outlined below:
code:
Kol sonna --- --- ---- Wolof (AF.) suna --- ---- --- Mande (AF) suna bara, baga de-n, doro koro Tamil connal varaga tinai kural Malayalam colam varaku tina --- Kannanda --- baraga, baragu tene korale,korle *sona *baraga *tenä *kora
Below we will compare other Dravidian and African agricultural terms. These terms come from the Mande languages (Malinke, Kpelle, Bambara, Azer, Soninke), West Atlantic (Wolof, Fulani), Afro-Asiatic (Oromo, Galla), Somali, Nubian and the ancient Egyptian. The Paleo-Dravido-Africans came from a sedentary culture that domesticated cattle and grew numerous crops including wheat and millet. The Egyptian term for cultivation is Ø b j(w) #. Egyptian Ø b j(w) # corresponds to many African terms for cultivation:
code:
Galla baji 'cultivated field' Tulu (Dravidian language) bey, benni Nubian ba, bat 'hoe up ground' Malinke be Somali beer Wolof mbey, ambey, bey Egyptian b j(w) Sumerian buru, bur 'to root up'
These terms for cultivate suggest that the Paleo-African term for cultivate was *be.
The Egyptian term for grain is 0 sa #. This corresponds to many African terms for seed,grain:
code:
Galla senyi Malinke se , si Sumerian se Egyptian sen 'granary' Kannanda cigur
Bozo sii Bambara sii Daba sisin Somali sinni Loma sii Susu sansi Oromo sanyi Dime siimu Egyptian ssr 'corn' id. ssn 'lotus plant' id. sm 'herb, plant' id. isw 'weeds'
The identification of a s>Ø/#_________e pattern for 'seed,grain' in the above languages suggest that these groups were familiar with seeds at the time they separated into distinct Supersets. The fact that Sumerian Ø se # and Egyptian Ø sen #, and Malinke Ø se # are all separated both in time and geographical area highlight the early use of seeds * se , by Paleo-Dravido-Africans.
code:
Rice Soninke dugo Vai ko'o Manding malo Dravidian mala-kurula Mende molo, konu Kpelle moloy Boko mole Bisa muhi Busa mole Sa mela Bambara kini
Yam Bozo ku, kunan Vai jambi Malinke ku Dravidian kui, kuna, ku Bambara ku
It would appear that all the Proto-Dravidians were familiar with the cultivation of rice, yams and millet. This is not surprising because Weber (1998) made it clear that millet cultivation in ancient South Asia was associated with rice cultivation.
The linguistic evidence clearly show similarities in the Afican and Dravidian terms for plant domesticates. This suggest that these groups early adopted agriculture and made animal domestication secondary to the cultivation of millet, rice and yams. The analogy for the Malinke-Bambara and Dravidians terms for rice, millet and yams suggest a very early date for the domestication of these crops.
In summary, population pressure in the Sahara during a period of increasing hyperaridity forced hunter/gather/fisher Proto-Dravidian people to first domesticate animals and then crops. The linguistic evidence discussed above indicate that the Proto-Dravidians migrated out of Africa to Harappan sites with millet, yam and rice already recognized as principal domesticated crop.
This comparison of Mande agricultural terms make it clear, that just like the Egyptian term for dog uher , the speakers of these languages share the terms for cultivate, and seed. It also shows that before the Dravidians separated from the Mande speakers these groups were cultivating also cultivating rice and the yam.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [ Millet was probably cultivated over 5000 years ago.
The earliest sites for the cultivation of millet lie in the Sahara . Here the earliest archaeological evidence has been found for African millets.
The major grain exploited by Saharan populations was rice ,the yam and pennisetum. McIntosh and McIntosh (1988) has shown that the principal domesticate in the southern Sahara was bulrush millet (pennisetum). Millet impressions have been found on Mande ceramics from both Karkarchinkat in the Tilemsi Valley of Mali, and Dar Tichitt in Mauritania between 4000 and 3000 BP. (McIntosh & McIntosh 1983a,1988; Winters 1986b; Andah 1981)
These dates contradict each other.
quote: In summary, population pressure in the Sahara during a period of increasing hyperaridity forced hunter/gather/fisher Proto-Dravidian people to first domesticate animals and then crops. The linguistic evidence discussed above indicate that the Proto-Dravidians migrated out of Africa to Harappan sites with millet, yam and rice already recognized as principal domesticated crop.
. [/QB]
Animal domestication took place a long time before 4000 BP and a long way from Dar Tichitt.
The claim is that about 3500 years ago the Proto-Dravidians migrated from Dar Tichitt in Mauritania all the way to India and did not show anyone else on the way how to cultivate millet. Right. I've think we have already been through the genetics, but exactly what genetic markers do the Mande and Dravidians share?
Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic